Mini Episode #22: The Apologetics Series - New Age (Special Guest: Doreen Virtue)

This week for the Apologetics Series we are talking about the New Age movement. 

This episode features special guest Doreen Virtue—a well-known former New Age teacher who appeared on major platforms like CNN, Oprah, and The View.

In 2017, her life was radically transformed when she gave her life to Jesus Christ—and she hasn’t looked back since.

Now, Doreen boldly shares the truth of the Gospel, exposing the deception within the New Age movement and equipping others to discern the tactics of the enemy.

This was an extremely insightful, encouraging, and eye-opening conversation!

In this episode, we talk about:

• Doreen’s powerful testimony

• What the New Age movement teaches

• How it differs completely from the Gospel

• How to witness to those involved in New Age

• Red flags in today’s culture—including the dangers of practices like yoga

• And how those in the New Age can find true peace, truth, and salvation in Jesus Christ!

Doreen is a true sister in Christ—standing firm in her faith and making a lasting impact for God’s Kingdom. She now disciples women leaving the New Age movement and has written several books (available for free on the Kindle app!).

Please keep Doreen, her husband, and her ministry in your prayers.

Be sure to follow her on Instagram (@doreenvirtue) and check out her YouTube channel (https://youtube.com/@doreen_virtue?si=veo9nwzZU7TOBJRK) and Facebook for more!

Listen now to this full episode on Apple Podcasts & Spotify! Check out our Instagram Page for the video interview (@letstalkaboutit.convos)! 

"Let's Talk About It" is a podcast for young adults navigating real life and real faith. From doubts and church hurt to purpose, relationships, identity, and even financial advice - we dive into the conversations most people avoid but everyone's thinking about. No fluff, no filters - just honest talk to help you follow Jesus in today's world. Enjoy monthly episodes featuring powerful insights from Christian young adult leaders and voices shaping today's faith culture.

Hosted by Elizabeth Peck.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:11

Hey everyone, welcome back to Let's Talk About It. This is Elizabeth. And if you're new here, this is our apologetic series where we're learning what we believe, why we believe. We're also discussing major world religions and what other people believe so that we can point them to the gospel and to who Jesus Christ is. And today we're diving into a topic that is becoming increasingly popular in today's culture. This is the New Age movement. And I'm honored to be joined today by Doreen Virtue. She is a former New Age teacher and best-selling author who spent more than three decades immersed in New Age spirituality. Before coming to faith in Jesus Christ in 2017, she was the top-selling New Age author in the world and was ranked among the 15 most influential living spiritual teachers by Watkins magazine. She was widely featured in mainstream media, including Oprah, CNN, The View, and Coast to Coast AM. Her life was radically transformed when the Holy Spirit convicted her as she read Deuteronomy chapter 18, verses 10 through 12, leading her to repent and place her faith in Jesus Christ as her Lord and Savior. Since her conversion, she has devoted her life to warning other people about the spiritual deception of the New Age movement and pointing people to the sufficiency and authority of God's Word. She holds a master's degree in biblical and theological studies from Western Seminary, as well as a master's degree in counseling psychology from Chapman University. She writes and speaks on biblical discernment, disciples women leading the new age movement, and partners with biblically faithful ministries to equip Christians to recognize spiritual deception and stand firm in the truth of the gospel. Thank you so much, Doreen, for joining us today.

SPEAKER_00 2:11

Thank you, Elizabeth. It's a joy to be with you.

SPEAKER_02 2:14

As we start off, Doreen, can you tell us a little bit about your background and how you first became involved in New Age spirituality?

SPEAKER_00 2:22

Well, it goes way back. I'm uh 68 years old as of next month. And so I was born and raised in a New Thought family. New Thought is different than New Age. New Thought, sometimes people kind of gloss over it and say, oh, that's positive thinking like Joel Osteen. No, New Thought is actually closer to Egyptian Hermeticism. And this is where you believe God is a mind and that you're inside of God's mind, and you are influencing God's mind through your own thoughts. So it's it's similar to word of faith where you speak things into uh existence, but this is even more depraved, I think, because it's it's blasphemous about who God is, about who Jesus is. But I was born and raised in this. My mother was fourth generation Christian scientist, and over the next 33 years, I was a member, a card-carrying member, pew-sitting member of three different New Thought denominations, which are Christian science, religious science, and unity. Not to be confused with Scientology, that's a whole different animal. That's kind of sci-fi stuff. Uh, this is this was the study of um what Jesus did, and then twisting that to think it was just all about us and that Jesus was merely a created human who was here to teach us to do what he did. Now he is our role model. He was fully God and fully man during his sinless life on earth. But the new thought is blasphemous in saying that he was mortal like us only. And so that's how I didn't know Jesus growing up, but I was told I was a Christian. We went to church twice a week, every week, uh Sunday regular church or Sunday school, and then Wednesday night the testimonial meeting, where Christian scientists talk about their healings. And uh we were not allowed to have doctors, we were not allowed to take health classes because the belief was if you knew about an injury or illness, you would manifest it. They used the word manifest before the secret and law of attraction. Um, so we were not allowed to watch any commercials or TV shows or movies that showed medical or injuries or accidents, um, because they said if that happened, it's an error of thinking on your part. It's your fault if you have those happen. And that part is similar to word of faith. Uh and so uh that's how I was my whole youth, teenage, early adult. And then I became a psychotherapist, as you mentioned at the top of the hour. I have a I have a BA and an MA from Chapman University in Psychology. And I became a psychotherapist specializing in women's issues, particularly women who have addictions and eating disorders. I worked inpatient and outpatient for decades. And I started to write books about what I was seeing with the patterns of these women. And because I was writing books, I got picked up as a speaker with this touring mind, body, spirit um group called Whole Life Expo. And because my books were not just psychological, I still had my Christian science new thought mindset, which I put into these books. So um the spiritual circuit loved me. And while I was touring with the Whole Life Expo all through North America, um it was like a traveling circus. So we all got to know each other. And almost every teacher there was um a new age teacher. And new age takes new thought to a whole different, darker dimension because it takes some of the new thought principles about co-creation with God, and then makes it about predicting and controlling the future with divination. And so I started to learn from my peers at the Whole Life Expo how to do psychic readings, mediumship, and um it's all about mystical experiences. And I learned about yoga and chakra clearing, I became a Reiki master. I was so hungry and curious because inside I was empty and seeking. Um, even though I was accumulating worldly success, you know, I was on all the talk shows all the time and and such. Inside I was just absolutely empty. But see, here's the thing with New Thought and New Age, you're not allowed to acknowledge that you have any problems because that's uh considered a negative vibration or negative energy. And if you say that you have a problem, then you're going to affirm it and then it will be real and you're going to attract more problems. So whenever uh the people in the new age and new thought, it's incredibly lonely and isolating because in a real relationship, I would tell you, hey Elizabeth, you know, I'm just not doing well today. Would you pray for me, sister? And you'd say, What's going on? And I would tell you all the details, and you would give me a hug. But in new age, you would say, I'm perfect, whole, and complete. And you you could never admit that, hey, my marriage is falling apart, I'm broke, you know, tired. You could you can't say those things in New Age and New Thoughts. So it's just so superficial with your relationship, so lonely and uh isolating. And there's no peace, of course, without Jesus. But the thing is, and in the New Thought and New Age, we would use biblical language and even Bible verses. I read the Bible every single day growing up. My parents gave me a King James Bible for I think it was Christmas or my birthday when I was very little, and we had prescribed verses we read every single day. So I knew the Bible, but I didn't know it. I didn't have a biblical worldview. I had a veil for the gospel because I was perishing. And so it looked like I was a Christian on the outside. I was pro-life, you know, as all the things that Christians seem to be going to church, reading the Bible. But I I wasn't even a false convert because I didn't even say I was saved. That that word saved made no sense to my new age thinking. You know, saved from what? Perfect, whole, and complete. So there and the belief in New Age is there's no such thing as sin, the devil, hell, demons, no need for repentance, then uh the gospel make is truly foolishness because in the new age you're perishing. Um the belief was those are just concepts that Constantine and the Roman Catholic Church made up to control us. Um, the the big belief that the Bible couldn't be trusted because it was mistranslated or it had missing books that were in Qumran, and we never did actually read those Dead Sea Scrolls. If we had, we probably would have said, no, this is not it either. But that was just this this belief, um, the New Age belief that Jesus went to the Essenes in Qumran, uh, or he went to India, and that's where he learned how to do his miracles. Just absolutely heretical beliefs, but they're so deeply embedded, and everybody parents them in the New Age. So if you know a New Ager, they'll probably tell you, oh, I love Jesus too, and they really believe it, but it's it's the false Christ. And the only way you're gonna know that is to talk with them about it, you know. Okay, well, who's Jesus to you? And it'll be like talking to a Jehovah's Witness or a Mormon, you know, because it's a whole different Jesus, completely.

SPEAKER_02 10:08

That's right. Amen. You said that so perfectly, and that's what can be very um misleading and also like a little like scary in the fact that it can sound very similar, yeah. But you're right, once you get into those conversations and you really start having good ask some good questions, then you start to realize there's differences there. So, what initially attracted you to the new age movement?

SPEAKER_00 10:33

Thanks for asking that. So I just want to say that I was a consummate researcher back then, and I was kind of considered a generalist. Um, my I was mostly known for making what's called angel cards because I was doing tarot cards, but I didn't like the pentagrams or the devils or the so-called negative words on the tarot cards. So I went to my publisher and I asked him, um, can I make cards like this with angels and positive words, my new age mindset, so diluted. And he said, No, nobody will buy those. And I kept asking him, and finally, I think to just because I was bugging him so much, he finally said yes, and he made 500 copies of the first deck of angel cards, and they sold out immediately. And so he printed 500 more, 500 more. And then by the time God saved me, and I was God, God's providence, he saved me at the peak of my career, so no one could say that, oh, she's trying to be relevant again. I I was at the very top of my career. Um, I had decks in 38 languages worldwide that were licensed and not self-published, these are all licensed, and um just I can't even remember how many different types of card decks there were. But the the hard burden for me, I know I'm saved, I know I'm forgiven, but there's consequences of sin. And these were sins. This is divination that's condemned in the old and in the New Testament. Um and uh the those decks are still out there. People are selling the used copies. Now that my publisher in the US doesn't publish them anymore, from what I understand, they're being sold at quite a high price because they're out of print. But then the foreign copies, the they the foreign publishers got licensing rights. And I was told they're seven years, but it seems like some of them are still printing them or selling maybe backstock. But the hard part, even more than all that, because I can't control people selling used copies or foreign copies, but the hardest part is that there my my ex-publisher told me that there's bootleg printers who are illegally printing their their catalog, including my old work, and selling it on places like Timu and even Amazon. And it's all counterfeit stuff. I mean, New Age is counterfeit from the devil anyway, but this is ill counterfeit counterfeit, and it has QR codes on the back that go nowhere. Um, but my publisher said they've been suing those bootleggers and they go out of business temporarily and then pop back up under a new name. So these are things I just people are always yelling at me. Why are your if you really are a Christian, why are your books still for sale? Your cars still and I and I always say, if you can figure out how to get them off the market, please tell me. I pray for this daily. The the only kind of Romans 8.28 about all that is that, or that I can see, I'm just probably many at Roman 8.28, but uh I was a speaker at the Ark Encounter, uh, Answers and Genesis Women's Conference last year, and I met some women there, different women, who said that they had bought my old products, and on the back of my products is my website, and they went to my website and they saw that I am a Christian and they read the gospel, and they said God used that to point them to Jesus and away from new age. Isn't that amazing? And so here we are at a Christian women's conference at the Ark encounter. If if you haven't been there, you got it's a must. You gotta go. And and so here we are. Now we're sisters in Christ hugging each other, uh, who God mercifully saved, and he and God used my sinful past for his glory in that instance. So um, you know, that's that's my hope and my prayer. And I'm on podcasts and social media almost every day, telling people who have ears to hear, even though the new age it seems so tempting, it seems so alluring and trendy, it seems to work, it seems positive and comforting, it is a trap of the devil, and it only leads to hell. It is the devil is a counterfeiter and in the father of lies, and he wants to hook as many uh uh souls that don't know the Bible as he can, because in his insane narcissistic devil mind, he's trying to compete with God to win souls. And so we have it's it's in the the new age is now in the churches, and that's part of the reason that I'm on social media daily warning professing Christians. And I get so many letters, Elizabeth, from women who say I had no idea that I was involved with the new age until they saw one of my videos or posts. And that's scary.

SPEAKER_02 15:30

Thank you for explaining all that. And I just you're you're exactly right. Romans 8 28, we know that God works all things together for good for those who love him, those who are called according to his purposes, and how God has just turned that whole situation and just saved and redeemed you as such a powerful testimony. And uh yeah, that is just oh my word, you are amazing.

SPEAKER_00 15:53

It's not me, it's all glory to God. I am I'm a wretched sinner, but God had mercy on me for some reason. So that's right. And you know, I'm gonna be 68 next month. 68 years old. I was saved at age 59, so nine years ago as of this recording. And I who knows how long any of us, God knows how long we have to live, but at 68, you're facing the end more definitely than you were at like 27 or so. So at 68, I I really believe that every minute of my life is God's. He redeemed me, and I'm gonna spend these moments, even though people get so angry with me and so offended, I'm gonna tell them the biblical truth because there's not much time. Whether it's my life ending or Jesus coming back soon. We have to be, we we can't waste our time. Um, I heard the sugar-coated Christians through my life. I grew up in the 60s when there was no TBN. It was people on, it was pastors on TV all the time in the 60s proclaiming the gospel. People would walk around proclaiming the gospel, but the new age and the new thought had taught me that I'm I'm not a sinner. You know, you might be a sinner, I'm not. And the New Thought teaches that Genesis 3 is just a myth, just ignore it, and that there's no crucifixion. And so when I would hear the gospel, it made no sense to me. Again, that I was perishing. Um, but the point is I did hear the gospel, and I I'm concerned, I don't think there's enough Ray Comforts out there right now. We need more watchmen and watchwomen on the wall who are bold because what we're not we're combating is not only all the TikTok influencers shuffling cards and saying, if you want to manifest something by my book or just do this witchcraft spell. Um, all we're we're combating all those influencers, we're combating uh shows like The Chosen and books like Jesus Calling that are serving up on a spoon a false image of Jesus like I followed. And this is so much danger right now for people. And then when you say something, they're like, oh, you're being divisive, you're a Pharisee, you know, you're all all these things. But I don't care what they say about me. I'm just caring for their soul. I want to point people who have ears to hear to the real full gospel that Jesus came to earth, fully God, fully man, the only one to live a sinless life, and the only one therefore qualified to take the punishment for the wrath that we all deserve because every one of us has sinned. And Jesus died on the cross, he was buried as prophesied for three days, and then he was risen physically from the dead. He it this is not just like the Gnostics thought that he was spiritually risen. He he people ate with him, they talked to him, they touched him, they heard him, they saw him, he physically rose from the dead to conquer sin and death on our on our behalf, on those who believe. And and he's risen to the right hand of our Father God, where he Jesus is not just what I was raised with, an ascended master or a good good person. Jesus is God, fully God, and he is the second person of our Holy Trinity that's co-equal and co-eternal with the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. And Jesus will return to judge us all. No one knows when. Only God knows when he's coming back, but we do know we're to be prepared. And how do we prepare? Repent now, believe the gospel now. Today is the day of salvation. And it's you can hear my passion because I know how blind I was in the new age, and I just pray God would use what you and I are saying today, Elizabeth, to reach someone, to open their eyes, to take off the scales, and to say, you know what? This these things I'm doing that are new age, that are condemned by God in his word. I'm walking away from them. And we don't walk away in our own strength because we don't have any willpower doesn't work, but we we turn to God for strength. And he gives us the strength. 1 Corinthians 10, 13 says that uh he gives us an avenue of escape from temptation where he is faithful. So we are here to proclaim the gospel. That's our job. We don't save anybody, but we point people to the one who does save. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 20:30

Oh, amen. What a beautiful explanation of the gospel. And I was talking with someone the other day, and just the honor that God doesn't need us, he could do all of this himself, but he chooses to, he chooses us, he saves us, and he allows us to uh be uh his spokespeople, uh, to just proclaim the gospel to everyone. And you're right, there is an urgency when you know the Lord, and you know that there are people in this world that if they don't know the Lord, they will spend eternity in hell. There's an urgency to want to tell people about the good news of Jesus. So thank you for sharing that. Yes. And looking back now as a Christian, what do you believe the new age gets wrong about God, truth, and spirituality? Or basically, how is it different from biblical Christianity?

SPEAKER_00 21:19

It's actually the polar opposite. Um, Christianity, as you know, our purpose is to glorify God. And if you're a Presbyterian, you add in and to enjoy Him forever. So we're here to glorify God. That's our purpose. But in the new age, your purpose is to glorify yourself. And there let me back up on that because my background is psychology, and I worked with women for years. And the women I was working with had been abused uh in childhood andor adulthood. Uh so they were trauma survivors, some of them you know, really severe trauma. Uh, and so when you're a trauma survivor. You often have coping mechanisms that are not healthy. And one of the coping mechanisms is called dissociation. Dissociation is where you kind of go in a dream world or a trance, an alternative reality in your mind, and it's safe there. It's like a little bubble world where not, you know, or like Toontown, if you remember Roger Rabbit. It's just this place that's populated by happy things. And you really go to this place and you lose touch with so-called reality because you don't like reality. And also women who were raised in abusive households learn how to be hyper-vigilant. So let's say that the dad, when he comes home drunk, he would be abusive. So the little girl learns how to intuit is dad drunk or not? And if he is, I'm going to go hide in my closet or go to my best friend's house. So here's these women that I was meeting in the New Age, and they were abuse survivors who were very hyper-vigilant, using their feelings to sense am I safe or not? And they also were dissociative, going into a little fantasy world in their minds. And the New Age is ripe to invite people to do that, because the New Age is, when it comes down to it, a delusion of that you are the creator, that you co-create with God, and it teaches you that God is the universe or energy, and that you can manipulate the universe or the energy with your thoughts and with your what you say, with you with your visualizations, with your vision boards. You can also predict what is going to happen in the universe through your astrological chart. And people who come out of Christian backgrounds, like a lot of the women I met in the new age, they they would tell me, oh, I'm a recovering Catholic, or they would tell me I left Protestant church because I felt guilty there, I felt afraid there, or there was hypocrisy or abuse in that church. And also a lot of women, Elizabeth, this is so interesting to me. I appreciate this opportunity to share this bit. Um a lot of women told me that growing up they had paranormal experiences as children, kind of like poltergeist things, or um, or they had dreams that came true or feelings that came true. And of course, the devil is just harping on children and just trying to mislead them. But these women, uh, they would go to a regular Protestant church wanting to get answers about their paranormal experiences, and and these things are never talked about at most churches. Uh, spiritual warfare is not a topic at most churches, except for NAR that goes way into the other extreme. Um so what they did is they said because they were not getting answers, they went to New Age workshops, and the new age workshops would tell them, hey, you're a natural-born psychic and you're gonna be famous someday. Take my class and I'm gonna shape you into a psychic. You're gonna have your own clientele, you can quit your day job, and you can use this natural power you have, wink wink, they'd say, to be a psychic. And they would do that. They there was so many professional psychics. It was like coffee stores on every corner in our world. In the new age world, it's psychics, and they would set up shop in their living rooms, or they'd have booths at the mind, body, spirit festivals, or they would get jobs on these psychic hotline phone lines. And um, and so it's it was this funneling of abuse survivors into a world that seemed to embrace them and love bomb them, tell them they were a goddess, tell them they were important, just really stroke their egos. And it's you don't get that in a biblically solid church because it's about glorifying God, it's not about telling you how wonderful you are. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:03

That's right, that's right. It's polar opposite, and it really also makes me think, too, of uh in the Bible where it says, you know, we don't fight against flesh and blood, but like it is a spiritual battle. Yeah. Uh every day we have to put on the armor of God. So, man, that is so interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah, definitely. And were there moments in your life, Doreen, before you became a Christian when you began to sense that something was not right spiritually?

SPEAKER_00 26:32

You know, you're not allowed to acknowledge anything in the new age. Uh, it is mind control. You are not even allowed for a moment to think something's wrong or I've got a problem. You just simply leave a situation that is called toxic or negative and you go on to the next one. So in the new age, uh relationships are serial monogamy where you are with one person, this is my soulmate, my twin flame. And then if there's any arguments, you're like, oh, that's not my soulmate, and you move on to the next partner. And that's that's how everyone in the new age that I was involved with lived their lives. And so there was no, I'm sure at some level I knew that my life was really messed up, but everyone I knew had the same sort of lifestyle. And I was touring Elizabeth with some of the most famous new age teachers of the time. You know, I was touring with Deepak Chopra and Wayne Dyer and and um Eckhart Tolley and all these really famous, Marian Williamson, just all these famous new age teachers. We were traveling together, and on the stage, we were told by our producers, our event producers, to never admit we had problems, because of course that's the New Age Ten Commandments right there. But also because um the belief was, and I heard the main person in the New Age say this. She said, Um, no one's going to buy your book if they think you're not a success. And I really feel bad that I fell for that. But we were on the stage giving the uh impression that we had it all together, that um you could be like me if you just take my class or buy my book. And uh backstage, though, was a whole different story because we were traveling together, so you get to know people. And there was so much alcoholism, and some people were really involved with heavy drug use. Um, as I talked about the serial monogamy, where every time you'd see someone, they'd be with a different partner. Um, and there was just uh gossiping and backbiting and uh compulsive shopping. We would all go to Harrod's in London together, we would go to Fifth Avenue, New York, and we were spending more than we were making just to have this illusion of success. You know, it's always the latest designer clothes, not last season's, but this season's from Italy, you know, it just had to be you'd you'd be wearing thousands of dollars worth of clothing each time you're on the stage. And people thought that, gosh, they have it all together, but we were not allowed to admit that we didn't. We were hot messes and we were living above our our lifestyle, um, and our lives were falling apart, but you can't acknowledge that. It's just it's smoke and mirrors. Isn't that isn't that crazy?

SPEAKER_02 29:23

That is, and it is the opposite of salvation through Jesus Christ. You have to admit you're a sinner first. Acknowledge your sins. So that is you're right. You uh I like the term you use delusion, it's a delusion. Yeah. What ultimately led you to encounter Jesus and lead the New Age movement?

SPEAKER_00 29:43

Well, I like I said, I always believed I was a Christian. I called myself an open-minded Christian, and I meant that deliberately to contrast between the evangelical Christians who I believed were closed-minded and fear-based and guilt-based, because I thought I was superior back then, um, because I thought I had Jesus, plus this pantheon I was following. The new age is pantheistic. So I would pray to Jesus and then I would pray to all the Hindu de well, not all, because there's 330 million, but the major Hindu deities, Buddhist deities, Celtic goddesses, African goddesses. Um I just I would I had this belief the more friends in heaven, the better. And I would play to pray to my ancestors, deceased people. Um, I just I had absolutely no idea that John 14, 6 is the truth, that Jesus said, I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except by me. Some translations except through me. Yeah, he's the narrow path. I thought that was so narrow-minded, which it is necessarily. I thought that was bigoted, um, even racist to believe that back then. And so anyway, but I believed I was a Christian, so I would always listen to different Christian speakers through my life. I mean, it got this really shows God's providence because he didn't lift the veil till I was 59. But I can remember back in the old days when it was cassette tapes and going to the library and getting the Bible on cassette tape and then listening to the whole thing on my workout. I can remember watching Bible movies. Um, I remember listening to Chuck Smith when he was alive on Calvary Chapel Radio in the 90s. I listened to him every day. Um so I mean, I was always there in Christianity, but the gospel, I was so spiritually blind. So I also would listen to Hindu gurus, and I would listen to Celtic shamans, and I would listen to, you know, diff all different cultures. Again, this mindset, the more the merrier. Um, I was a student of world religion and I was a universalist, believing that we were all saying the same thing, just different words. I really believed back then that Allah and God were the same being. I know, delusional. Um, but that's what I believed. And so uh because of this, I would listen to Christian Satellite Network Radio. And in January 2015, I was listening to one of my favorite pastors, Alistair Begg, and I was driving along the highway, and it it was Aleister Begg doing an expository sermon on um on is it first or second Timothy four? I think it's 2 Timothy 4, where he's talking about in the end times people will want their itching ears tickled by false teachers. And yeah, and so then he goes and describes what a false teacher is, and he said they give people false hope. And he quoted Jeremiah, peace, peace when there is no peace. And Elizabeth, I have chills just saying this. This was the first time in my whole life that I was consciously aware of the Holy Spirit convicting me of sin. It was yeah, it was like that. I was driving and it was right there in the chest, and and it was, I thought, wow, he's describing me. I'm giving people false hope in my psychic greetings. See, I was giving psychic greetings on radio TV from the stage and privately, and I would I I would kind of intuit what they wanted to hear. And so I would get real messages, but I would always sugarcoat it because I didn't want to make any, I didn't want to be negative, is what it came down to. So after I heard that and I believed it was true, a couple things happened. Um, first, I made a promise to never give people false hope again, and I kept that promise. But the second was when I got home from that drive, I said to my husband, I told him about the radio show, and I said, you know what, I want to start going to a real church. I guess at some level I knew that we weren't going to a real church with the new thought, and we'd go to Roman Catholic churches a lot, and I know that'll offend some people, but we were attracted by the statues and the candles and the mysticism, so we would go there. And and so my husband and I then started to kind of go to different denominations. We didn't know what we were doing, and we went to Seventh-day Adventist for a while. We went to Four Square Pentecostal, and we ended up at Episcopalian for two years, uh, mostly because they have the most hospitality of any denomination I've ever, ever met. I mean, they they were like the new age, uh not not theologically, but in terms of hospitality. Just welcome, welcome, welcome. Here, here, here's something to drink, here, sit here, here. Would you like a sandwich? Here, come to my house and have a party. Let's go to a coffee next week. I mean, it was just instant best friends at the Episcopalian Church. It was and so we felt so welcome, we just stayed there, even though looking back, you know, there's very, very liberal, progressive things there. But while we were there, I was reading the whole Bible finally. I'd been trying to read it my whole life instead of cherry-picking it. And that's when, as you talked in the the introduction, that's when I got to Deuteronomy 18, 10 through 12, where God's speaking through Moses to the second generation who's about to go over the Jordan River, to not be like the Canaanites. Do not pass your sons and daughters through the fire. Now, I had always been pro-life ever since my mother-in-law had shown me a photo of an aborted baby when I was a teenager, and I was instantly and always pro-life after that. So passing children through fire, okay, got that, not doing that. Um, but the second, third, fourth thing is uh in paraphrasing where God said through Moses, do not be like the Canaanites who were pagans that were going to be pushed out of the land of milk and honey. Do not practice divination. Well, I was not only practicing it, I was selling divination cards at that time. I don't anymore, of course, but I did at that time. Um, do not practice mediumship or necromancy. I did that. I was giving mediumship readings and I was writing about it. Do not interpret signs and omens. I was doing that. I even had a book I wrote on that. And so this that was I was getting convicted, but when I got to verse 12, that's what broke me. I needed to be broken. It said, anybody who practices these things, that person is a detestable abomination to God. And I was like, what? Because up until that moment I thought God was pleased with me because people told me my new age work was helping them. They said it comforted them. And I thought, well, this is positive, so that's what God is. He wants positive only. And I and the moment I read this in verse 12 of Deuteronomy 18, I knew it was true. I was convicted, but I was shocked. It was the most shocking part of my whole life to know that doing these things, not only the practices were condemned, but people who do divination are condemned. And that's Old and New Testament in all biblical translations. Right. And to learn that I was an abomination to God broke me. I fell off my chair. I've got on the floor. I was weeping because I knew this was true. Um, I suddenly knew that I was going to hell. Um, and I was thinking about all the people that I had passed along this deception to unknowingly. I didn't know I was deceived till that moment, and how they were going to hell, and people who'd already died had gone to hell because of my work, possibly. And I was just overcome with horror and grief. And I said to God something I'd no longer believe, but at the time I did, I said, I didn't know, I didn't know, I'm so sorry, I didn't know. But you see, I did know because I'd heard the gospel and I had rejected it. And me, a judgment day saying I didn't know would not have passed muster, it wouldn't have cut it because I did know. So I I left the new age. That was the end of 2017, uh, roughly September, maybe October. I don't have the exact date. I wish I'd written it down, but I know the time frame because we I left the New Age. We we had a 50-acre ranch we were buying in Hawaii. We just gave it back to the people we were buying it from, left Hawaii with my elderly parents who we were caring for at the time, they're past since, and moved to a multi-generational home on the mainland that was less expensive, and I lost my job at the New Age Publisher, which was fine because I was at that point unequally yoked. And then um started to go to a Baptist church, Biblically Solid Baptist Church, and of course got baptized, and and um it's been it's been quite the journey. Um it's so interesting, Elizabeth. When I look back on my life before Jesus saved me, my life seemed so carefree back then. I mean, it seemed so like, you know, just this adventures all the time, and and it seemed like everything was going my way. And then the minute I got saved, spiritual warfare, oh, the demons are mad at me, you know, just one thing after another, my parents passing, people mad at me because I'm now uh Christian instead of a new ager, just and and complete financial ruin that we're in right now because of walking away from the new age. It's it's just been one thing after another, but but inside I'm so peaceful. Like when I when I had that whole lifestyle of the rich and famous, I was so empty and so anxious all the time because of the broken relationship with God. But now that Jesus, through Hit through my faith in him, my I have this reconciled relationship with my creator, I have such peace. And I'm like in the Eye of the Hurricane with all this stuff that's going on around me all the time and the stuff in the world. That peace that surpasses understanding is beyond what we can describe, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 40:03

That's right. Amen. That was so true. I was having a conversation with someone the other day, too, about um, you know, Jesus warned the disciples like you will face persecution when you choose this narrow path to follow the Lord. And uh, but yeah, you're right. Nothing compares to that peace. And it's so worth it when you know and find full joy and satisfaction in the Lord Jesus Christ. It's so worth it, no matter what is going on around. So that was amazing. Many Christians today, you know, we see it in a culture, uh, then these new age ideas that are coming through, social media, yoga culture. You mentioned manifestation. That's one I see a lot. And also astrology, you know, that's like a common like question people will ask, like, what's your sign and all that sort of thing? What are some red flags that believers should be aware of?

SPEAKER_00 40:56

Well, if if it's man-centered would be the biggest first red flag. Um, all those methods that you mentioned are about that we can make things happen in our own will, our own timing, our own way. And it's a big temptation for people who are desperate. Um, I'm I'm an administrator in a support group on Facebook, a private group. Um, if anyone's interested, it's called From New Age to Jesus. And in this group, we took an informal survey a couple years ago about how did you get into the new age in the first place? By far, statistically, the number one reason women said they got into the new age through chasing after a health solution, a solution to their health. And then of that, they said the number one way they got into new age as a health concern was through yoga. And there's a woman named Dr. Candy Gunther Brown who's written, she studied this uh yoga and spirituality quite a bit. She's got a book out on it. And she found statistically that women she surveyed initially got into yoga for either health or relaxation. And after six months of when they were checked back in, they were staying in yoga because of the spirituality. Now, if I could talk about yoga for a minute, is that okay, Elizabeth? Because this is kind of one of my wheelhouses since I did yoga for almost every day for over 20 years before I was saved. And I did all the different variations of yoga. One of my best friends owned a yoga studio. I wanted to be a yoga teacher at one point. I mean, I and I lectured at Kripallo, which is one of the top yoga um training centers in America. Uh, so I was all into yoga, and uh I was like a lot of women, I thought it was just stretching and that it would tone my arms as a bonus. And I was really good. Like I could do handstands and everything. But the thing is that if you go to the ancient, and I don't recommend this, but if you do go to the ancient Hindu scriptures, it uh it says that yoga and it shows all the different poses we were doing, uh, called asanas in Sanskrit. The each pose is mimicking with your body that deity and glorifying that deity, and to be merging with them to get favors from that deity. And there's over 330 million Hindu deities, but most people, when they go to yoga, they're doing the sun salutation series. So it's this it's a series of five to seven poses that you do, and it includes something called the warrior pose, warrior one, two, and three. Um, in Sanskrit, it's called Virabhadrasana, and asana means pose, so it's the pose of Viribadras. And who's Viribadras? He's in Hindu mythology, he's he's basically a demon who murdered on behalf of one of the other head deities, and so the warrior pose in the sun salutation series is using your body to act out a murder scene from Hindu theology, and if it you You and I both agreed that our purpose is to glorify God. We are told in the Bible, glorify God with your body. The context is sexuality, but we could say that this could be applicable. Glorify God with your body. People tell me yoga is just stretching. I was there in yoga classes for I don't know, I should count how many days that is 26 years almost every day. That's a lot of days. And what I can say for those who are honest, yoga is not natural stretching, or that teacher wouldn't be over there correcting your posture 24-7. And they say it's for safety, but it's also because these are precise movements that the Hindu scriptures tells you exactly how to pose, how to do those yoga poses. So let's go to the Ten Commandments, which are still for today. Commandment one is what? And what's commandment two? Thou shalt have no graven images. And the context is don't bow down to and worship them. Well, it if you do yoga, you're essentially violating commandments one and two, aren't you? Because you're using your body as a graven image to glorify one of the Hindu deities. And then people say, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, uh no, God knows my heart. I don't think about Hindu deities when I'm doing my Christian holy yoga. I'm thinking about we're saying Bible verses while we're doing this. And I say, okay, you're telling me you can redeem a pagan practice. Is that right? And they're like, yeah, it's it's just like 1 Corinthians 8 and 10. And see, look at that, meat was redeemed. Paul said you can eat anything. And I'll say, okay, but the yoga is not the same, it's not analogous to the meat. The yoga is analogous to the pagan temple and the pagan prayers. And it never says in the Bible that those were redeemable, right? Yeah, you're right. And then we go to where Paul said, and I will never eat or drink anything that could cause a brother to stumble. Now let's apply that to a professing Christian woman walking down the street with a yoga mat rolled under her arm. What is a new Christian or a woman who's being called into Christianity going to think when she sees a professing Christian woman with a yoga mat? She's going to think, oh, okay, it's cool for Christians to do yoga. And she could go to one of the yoga studios like I was in that have deity statues everywhere that have you chanting Sanskrit. And I'm going to say this, please forgive me. This is blasphemy, but it's just for illustration only. In yoga classes, and this includes in schools for kids, they have you chant namaste, and that's actually become a trendy little phrase. Namaste means the God within me recognizes and honors the God within you. Blasphemous, right? Right? Pantheism. And and om, they have you chant om, they have um signs on the wall. And um means the sound of the creation of the universe. So again, that pantheism panentheism of Hinduism, where you're praying to the universe and you're acknowledging that you're God and other people are God. And that's what the New Age believes. New age is very Hindu, by the way. So yoga classes are not redeemable. I don't care how many Bible verses you chant while you're doing sun salutations. That's a pagan ritual. Now, stretching is healthy and normal and natural. I've not stopped stretching. I did throw away all my yoga mats after I was saved. But what I do now is Pilates, some Pilates has yoga in it, so you have to be careful. But there's this machine you can get on Facebook Marketplace or Craigslist for$200 or$100 called a Pilates Reformer. And if you've got the space in your house or garage, get this. It's a wooden frame where you lay down. If you're like me, kind of a lazy exerciser, you'll love it. You lay down and it's got pulleys for your legs, and it's stretching a little thing with springs, and you get the best stretches. You can stretch all your whole body with this machine called the Pilates Reformer. And there's no yoga involved, no spirituality. You can watch your favorite movie while you're on that Pilates Reformer. And I do that almost every day, and it helps me to relax, and it keeps me really limber. I'm almost 70 and I'm able to sit on the floor cross-legged with my grandkids and my pets and everything. And and, you know, I mean, it just it's stretching is super important, but make sure that you're not glorifying a Hindu deity when you're doing it. Please, sisters who've got ears to hear, I know people get so mad at me because they do not like their idols criticized. And yoga is idolatry. But look at go read Revelation 22 and see what happens to idolaters at the end times. Yeah. They they do not go to a good place. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 49:06

And thank you for your boldness and just say that because you are right. Some people might get offended at that, but you know, really the gospel is offensive. And so I think it's so good that you're speaking truth and love uh to people, and you are right. It's these little nuances that the devil likes to disguise himself as light and oh, this is okay, oh, this is okay. But ultimately, like everything that we say and do and even think should honor and glorify the Lord. And uh thank you for informing everyone uh with all that information. That is so good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:41

Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I mean, we women, we there's a reason that the serpent went after the woman in the garden and not the man. We have a rebellious streak in us, and we've got to watch that tendency. Um, I wrote a book and it's free on Kindle Unlimited. If someone's interested in women's issues in this uh, I think I find it fascinating. It's called Eve's Pagan Daughters, and it's it's free on Kindle Unlimited, and it's and it goes in statistically that the majority of people in the new age in Wicca and in witchcraft are women by a lot. By a lot. And why is it that women are drawn to these different modalities? And why, again, why did the serpent choose the woman and not the man in the garden? So we just knowing our kind of our Achilles heels, to use a pagan reference, I shouldn't do that, but just you know, our our vulnerabilities as women is one of the ways that we can combat that spiritual warfare.

SPEAKER_02 50:41

That's right. Amen. That's so true. And how can Christians lovingly share the gospel with someone who is deeply involved in the new age worldview?

SPEAKER_00 50:52

Yeah, it's I mean, the gospel is the power of God for salvation. There's you have to share the gospel. Subtlety is lost on new agers. You know, Christians sometimes think, well, I'll just live the gospel and they'll see that I'm peaceful. No, they won't. They will not see that at all. I promise you. New age, New Age is very, very prideful, uh, what would be called today narcissistic. So they're just thinking about themselves, they're not noticing anyone else. And so with a new ager to share the gospel, um let me just give you an example for my life first, and then I'll give a practical application. So my brother was saved 20 years before I was. He actually married a Christian woman and she, you know, did she somehow shared the gospel with them and he he became a Christian 20 years before me. And so he was always praying for me and sending me Ray Comfort videos and and such. And and I would watch those videos, but again, spiritually blind at that time. It wasn't wasn't God's providence, I guess, at the time, or depending if you're Calvinist or Arminian, I don't get into either one of those, but I didn't it you know, I'm sure it planted a seed. Thank you, Ray. But it didn't, I wasn't it wasn't fully believing that I was a sinner at that time. Um so my brother was at a dinner party at my house, and all my friends who were there were New Asiers, and then my brother and his wife, Christians, were at this dinner party, and they shared he shared the gospel at my dinner party where everyone heard. And I was embarrassed, horrified, offended, angry, furious, really, at him for doing this. And there was this pregnant silence at the dinner party after he did that, like we were all holding our breath. And yet we're new agers, so you can't acknowledge anything negative. You just kind of stew in it. Um, but now I thank him every single day that I talk with him for doing that. I I'm uh and and so, like you said, uh Elizabeth, the gospel is necessarily offensive. New agers don't want to believe that they're sinners, they just have no concept of that they're sinners. Um, it makes them feel bad about themselves when they're already abuse survivors, so they defend against it. Um but here's the way that's a practical application is that new agers love to be prayed over. They it's like a spa treatment to them. Um they're like me, me, me, me, me. That's a new age, it's all me, me, me, me. So what you can do is uh when you're eating dinner or some meal with a new ager, say grace. Don't even ask permission, just do it. Just say grace. And as you're thanking God for the provision of the food, also thank God for his son dying on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins. So so put the gospel in. Don't worry what people will think. Let the people in the restaurant hear it. They all need to hear the gospel. Just say the gospel because when you're saying grace, people are open because they're hungry. So they're listening. They're mostly listening, is this over yet? So I can eat. But they're listening during grace, right? So say it then. And then the other thing is if a new ager happens to even hint that there's a problem in their life, you know, their boyfriend left them, they crashed their car, something, then you can say, Hey, can I pray with you? Can I pray with you? And a new ager will say yes. And if you're with them, hold their hands, close their eyes, and then just pray for them and put the gospel in the prayer out loud so they can hear it. Now, God's word does not return void. It may be like with my brother, 20 years before God nurtures that seed to grow. But you did your part, you planted the seed of that gospel, and then you pray, pray, pray, pray, pray for that person. Get on your prayer groups and ask everyone to pray for your niece or whoever this person is. Just pray, pray, pray for them. Prayer and the gospel, that's our jobs to do for people who are unsaved, whether they're unsaved as an atheist or some false religion, new age, whatever it is, it's the same cure. Point them to Jesus. Um, and then I would say also, you know, along that lines that I said that the subtlety is lost on a new age, but they do notice hypocrisy and they notice what's called negativity. So if you are with them and you are um gossiping or some other sin that yeah, because God's law is on our heart, we know, or you're getting drunk, you know, or doing something like that, they're gonna notice that. So it's not like being on your best behavior to impress someone, because that would be love of man or fear of man. It's fear of God, not fear of man that we have. But do um pray for God to give you the strength to walk the straight and the narrow path. Because um, like that old saying, you might be the only Bible someone reads. Is they they do they do notice what you're doing and how you're dealing with stress in particular. If you're turning to your Bible when you're stressed, if they see you praying when you're stressed, that will impress on them. It won't save them, but it will impress on them. Right. That is so good.

SPEAKER_02 56:06

You're right. People are watching. Yeah, that's exactly right. What encouragement would you give to someone who is currently involved in new age spirituality and searching for truth?

SPEAKER_00 56:16

Yeah. Yeah, I was searching for truth. I was reading all of the old metaphysical books I could find because I was touring with all the famous new age teachers, and I knew their lives were just as messed up as mine. So I didn't listen to them or read their books. I'd read books from the 1800s because I thought some old book will have the answer, and some old book did. It's the Bible. All those years, my Bible was on my bookshelf from my childhood, and I didn't open it for a lot of years. It was dusty. And when I finally I I got after I heard Alistair Beg on the radio, um, because I had been raised King James Version only, and I think King James is a really good translation, so I don't want anyone to misunderstand me. When I say the Lord's Prayer or Psalm 23, it's still in the King James Version. I can't say it any other way. But I had a hard time personally with all the Elizabethan these, thou's. I didn't, I mean, as a case in point, the Bible says don't do necromancy, but I was a medium because I didn't know what necromancy meant. You know, so for me, King James onlyism didn't work. And after I heard Alistair Begg on the radio, I went to the bookstore and bought a new King James Version Bible, and it was like putting on a pair of eyeglasses. I mean, I was like, whoa, whoa, oh, look at Jesus said that. You know, that's what I it was so revolutionary to me. I was reading a modern translation. And I know people want to tell me, you know, they they say, oh, there's missing verses, missing, you know, added verses, but that's a whole other show, isn't it? On apologetics about the text is receptus. Um, but my point is that um reading the Bible every single day, and then when I got into spiritual warfare, um, it was about listening to the Bible every day, which I still do. I listen to audios of the Bible. You want to saturate your mind with God's word and submit to God, resist the devil, and he will flee. And as you said, Ephesians 6, put on the armor of God is really important. So for someone who's watching this, who's searching for truth, the truth is in the Bible. Um every question I ever had about why people are this way, why life is this way, what happens after you die, it was answered in the Bible. The second thing I want to say to anyone in the New Age is do you really have peace? I mean, in the New Age, it's all about searching for true and lasting peace, but it doesn't last. If someone's honest, they there's no peace in the new age. There's euphoria, you get high all the time from you know mystical trance experiences, and you might have fun. I had a lot of fun in the new age, but there's no peace. That there's that unsettledness inside of you. And you know where that comes from, those who are watching who may not be know the Lord yet? That that lack of peace comes because of a broken relationship with your creator, the one who made you. You have a severed relationship with him. And if him offends you because men have abused you, God didn't abuse you. Okay, God, I know you might say God's not answering my prayers. Well, he listens to prayers of the righteous. So let's get you righteous, okay? Let's let's let us reconcile you to God. And that comes through you realizing that you have, all of us have. We're not saying you're a bad person because we're saying we're all bad persons. We're not singling you out, singling you out. You've at least broken one of the Ten Commandments guaranteed. You've dishonored your parents. We've all done that. Or you've told a lie, even if you call it a white lie. You've probably stolen something, even if you were a kid with candy. You've you've broken these ten commandments before our 100% holy God. And then you might say, oh, God's love. He wasn't punish anybody. This is just a myth. Yeah, God is love. That's one dimension of our absolutely multidimensional Creator who's also justice. And he is just at the end of our life. Those of us who've sinned without Jesus as our Lord and Savior, we're gonna be judged, raw, naked, undefended. And it's it says in God's word, we will at that point be put into the lake of fire, which is eternal torment. It's not a party with your friends. Eternal torment is eternal separation and absolute just it never ends. You do not want to go there. We don't want you to go there. So, what we want for you is we want you to admit that, yeah, I've done these things, and God is 100% holy, and I'm not. And I can't bridge that myself, no matter how many rituals I do. I can't vibrate that high, to put it in new age lingo. And the only one who is the mediator between humanity, us, and our creator is Jesus, because he's the only one who was sinless on earth. He's God. Everything, you and me and everything was created through Jesus, by Jesus. So his heaven, his rules, just like your living room, your rules, you don't open the door to everyone who wants to come in, you've got rules. So does God. And the rule is, and it might sound narrow-minded, it is, might sound racist, it's not, might sound bigoted, it's not. But this is the rule is that there's one narrow path through Jesus to eternal life in the new heaven. And in the new heaven, check this out. There's no tears, there's no sickness, there's no illness, nope, there's no bad guys anymore. There's no sin. It's just real light, not the fake phony love and light. There's real light from God there in the new heaven for eternity. To live with Jesus, pure love, pure peace, pure light forever is only found through Jesus. And while we're here on earth just a little while longer, you can have peace. As Elizabeth and I have been talking about today, a peace that is absolutely supernatural because it comes through the fruit of the Holy Spirit who indwells you, fills you up, gives you that peace and security and fullness you're seeking, gives you that truth. He's your guide, he's your comforter, he reminds you as a teacher what Jesus taught. That indwelling Holy Spirit who will steer you. And that only comes through your faith in Jesus. Life, death, and resurrection. If you're teetering on this, you're like, I don't know, I'll lose everything. People will laugh at me, I'll lose my income. What will people say? I want to tell you, I wish that I had if I could rewind my life, I wish I would have read the whole Bible and turned to Jesus much earlier. But it's God's timing. But what I can tell you is pray on this. Pray. Heavenly Father, please reveal the truth about Jesus to me today. Please show me what I need to do. Please, Heavenly Father, I know it's not about my works, it's about Jesus' work on the cross. Please, Heavenly Father, have mercy on my soul. I want to believe, I want to want to stop sinning. Please help me to give me a new heart and a new life in Christ. And I say these prayers in the name of our holy high priest, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Amen. Amen. So, friend, if you're watching this today, I I I implore you, don't waste another minute with these things, these trinkets. Go to the real thing, the only thing that matters, and that's Jesus.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:52

Oh, amen. Oh my goodness, I couldn't agree more. It is the best decision you will ever make in your whole entire life is to give your life over to Jesus Christ. And she's exactly right. Um, we have a wonderful pastor at our church who uh it's like the the letters of the alphabet A, B, C, and D. Um, admit that you are a sinner and that you cannot do it on your own. We've all messed up, just like Vereen said. We've all have failed. Um, none of us can reach God's holy perfection. B, believe that Jesus died, was buried, and rose again for you. And C, confess that he is Lord, make that decision to ask him to be Lord and Savior of life. And then I love that he includes the letter D, which is decide, decide today that you will walk and follow him forever. So thank you, Doreen, for that. That was just beautiful. A great way to end uh as we wrap up here. Uh, Doreen, you are just so precious, a precious sister in Christ. I just, what a treat and an honor and blessing to get to do this conversation with you today. How can we all pray for you and your ministry?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:03

Oh, you're so kind. Um, I don't know. You know, I as God leads you, I welcome prayers, of course. Um, my husband lost his job last year. We are, I'm not asking anyone for donations, but if you could pray for God's protection and provision for us, um his work, that would really be helpful. And um just pray that I be would be able to share the gospel with those who previously followed my work. Um, is my prayer that um because uh I was touring for 26 years around the whole world, and as I said, my work was in thirty-eight languages, and I don't even know how to get it off the bookshelves at all. If it was self published, it would have been gone by now. But um just if you could just pray for um uh God to use my past for his glory and to point people to his kingdom, I would sure appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:59

Oh We'll definitely be praying for that. And Doreen, how can uh viewers and listeners find you? Uh how can they stay connected with you and support your ministry?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:10

Thank you. Well, my website is DoreenVirtue.com. You can find my blogs there, links to my social media and such. And also I have because the one of the reasons I've been writing a lot of books is because I've been discipling women over the past nine years who've come out of New Age and I wanted to collect it into books. But I'm giving most of them away for free on Kindle Unlimited. And part of the reason is because I can't get the old Amazon stuff off that was 2017 and earlier published. Um and so now when you go on Amazon, you can see from Counterfeit to Christ, uh Eve's Pagan Daughters. I've got a book called Yoga and Spiritual Warfare that talks about all the different reasons why we should not be doing yoga, but should be doing other kinds of stretching instead. And they're all free on Kindle Unlimited. So I it makes me so joyful when people read those.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:03

Yes. And we'll include all of that in our notes for today. Thank you so much, Doreen, for taking the time to do this interview and this uh episode. You are a blessing. Elizabeth, so are you, sister. It's been a joy to be with you. Oh, you take care, and we'll see you all for the next episode.