Make Life Better. By Design
A podcast about design and how it can make life better, for all of us.
Make Life Better. By Design
Episode 13: Interview with Nathan Clegg (and the Gremlins strike!)
Keen to get a graphic designer's take on if and how design can make life better, I set up an interview with Nathan Clegg, only to find that I must have made a schoolboy error setting up my mike. Unwilling to throw away Nathan's comments, I tried to salvage my part of the interview, with little success. Mea culpa.
As a prelude to this episode of Make Life Better by Design, I have to give you my sincere apologies. That's to anyone who's been kind enough to listen to the podcast, and in particular to my guest this week, Mr. Nathan Clegg. Because I am well technically incompetent and very much an amateur at this podcast game, I didn't realize some of the things that could go wrong. My microphone, I found after 40 minutes of recording had produced an awful echo and try as. I might, I couldn't get rid of that echo. So I'm afraid the quality of this is absolutely appalling. My apologies again, uh, I couldn't do anything else about it. It won't happen again. Normal service resumed next week and uh, thanks for bearing with me.
Kevin (2):Hello and welcome to another episode of make Life Better by Design. Now, today we have a guest in the studio, Mr. Nathan Clegg. Now Nathan is a professional designer. Anybody that's heard me speak will know I distinguish between professional Designers with a capital D
Alex:and those with the small D which covers absolutely everybody else. Nathan is a particular sort of designer to wit a graphic designer, and I've known him and worked with him for a long period. Nathan, thank you for agreeing to come on. You've heard me give you introduction, but can you tell us more?
Nathan:Yeah, so I think as you've just alluded to, we've known each other for number of years as you were my employee, which employer even, yeah. So I think it's 20. Wow. 25, 28 years. Still. Designing with a capital D as you've put a bit about myself. born and bred in Huddersfield Educated through grammar school picking up GCSEs, then further education into A levels. But always picking up on the artistic, the graphic side of things. Then on to further education at the old Batley Art and Design College over near Dewsbury where I received a HND in again, graphic design. And then straight into practice, so at 19, went to 17 Design, which probably some of your viewers will know that you you were a part of. And I think you learn a lot more. In practice than you do in a classroom being given silly briefs trying to explain or trying to get you to understand the design process. I think once you're in practice, it's you thrown in at the deep end and you really need to learn quickly. Working at one seventeens been very varied. A huge array and like I said, varied design skills through graphic design, could be branding, could be websites, portfolios, exhibitions, all sorts of things.
Kevin:The good thing for you is that you've had the opportunity to get involved in a whole range of stuff. You've not simply been, say, designing restaurant menus.
Nathan:No. And I think for those people that perhaps are pigeonholed into that kind of a job, and I think that's a shame, really. I've been very lucky that I've been involved with many different things. One 17 design for those that don't know, is a, is an architecture. I think that the reason why I came into the role was I originally wanted to be an architectural student at a interest in architecture, buildings, and I think the process of designing a building really appealed to me. Through school, through a levels, through further education. The graphic side, the marketing, the, I guess the quickness and the excitement of the jobs coming in quickly, finding solutions really quickly, I think appealed to me, probably a little more than the architecture did. So I'd already started my placement at one 17 with a view of. being a, an architectural technician, and I think because I was here when I made that transition, the role for a graphic designer or a marketing board or Macon a, I think I called myself, was there that we had a need. So I fell into that role really conveniently. and 25, 28 years later. I'm still filling it.
Kevin:Really you are saying then that you see what you do as a graphic designer as being very complimentary to the architectural design side of things.
Nathan:Absolutely. I think the principles where you approach a brief specifically graphically. apply across. So I'm very much a details person, so I like things. Correct. And let's, this is making it simple, but I like things in line. I like things spaced properly. I am. That type of a person where things need to be right and well thought out.
Alex:That's interesting when you talked about spacing because a couple of the previous episodes have been about lettering, signage that sort of thing, in part because as far as I'm concerned, design applies to just about everything. But yeah, I think there's a very immediate link there with the sort of thing that you do. Given that this is a podcast about making life better through design, do you think of what you do in those terms?
Nathan:Without giving it too much thought. I think that's, I think that's very much dependent the perspective of the client or the designer. So I would say yes, design does make a difference, and that's not because I would like the work or I enjoy doing the work. But from a client's point of view, if they appreciate good design, maybe with a lower case D, it's it is important. Don't appreciate the design, my time's not wasted. But they're not getting the benefit.
Kevin:What about the broader public that encounters your work? An obvious example, is signage around a building, perhaps a hospital where it's absolutely critical people actually understand what that signage is doing.
Nathan:I think sort of the way to illustrate that is I've thought about this a lot over the years. If somebody comes to you and says, I'd like a logo doing, I could create a logo in minutes and I could do them options in minutes, but that logo won't have been well thought out. about the. End user, like you're talking about signage, who's gonna be seeing it? The age group that it's appropriate to all these little nuances that actually make that design functional and appropriate for its end user. So if you had, like you say in signage so many things to think about on there, you could do a sign in minutes and it probably would do a job. If you stand back and think about it, who's seeing it? The typeface that's used, the color, the positioning, the height of it, the is access limited. is it just people in cars? Is it a car park? The driving past, must be a thousand things you can think of that you need to incorporate into a design or into a sign. To make it the best it possibly can be and fulfill the brief you've been given. So I think there's a, there's a difference in designers in that they can do the work, but I think if it's not thought out it could be better, if that makes sense.
Kevin:Yes, I think the difference between, oh, how can I put this producing one thing and producing or designing the best you possibly can to meet the brief.
Nathan:Yeah. I think that's important as well. And.
Kevin:I think a lot of people are unconscious how the difference between really good design and stuff, you might still call it design, but stuff the difference that can make make the quality of people's lives.
Nathan:Yeah. O often I think good design is not noticed by the majority. Those that appreciate it or perhaps have got knowledge of what goes into things. They notice it as good design, so I analyze all sorts of things because I've got an interest in, it's quite sad but. Typography. I know you really like typography and it's so it's so important and branding of a firm or a person or anything that branding speaks to the viewer before they have even met the company or the person or anything else. And that's down to the. Typography, the color, the shape, evrything speaks, but what it's speaking how do I put it? It's talking about you before you've even met them.
Kevin:so for me, and I think it's perhaps you are saying in a different way, is that everything matters. I use this phrase. Only connect. And one of the things that I mean by that is you've got 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 different aspects to a design that you can consider, and you've got to consider all of them and make sure that they come together in a coherent final form.
Nathan:exactly that you said better than me.
Kevin:You don't think that generally, people understand what you do and why one thing is different from another typeface is one thing form of print might be different, appropriate to the circumstances.
Nathan:Yeah. I, it's a bit of a sweeping statement and think that's fair. I think the people that don't appreciate design it doesn't matter to them If somebody came to us like a, I said, oh, could you do me a logo? I can, they'd be, oh, that's fantastic. That's great. Thank you. And happy. But you'll get the people that come that say, I want this to high-end really pristine, bespoke quality. All those things need thinking about. So I think for me it really does matter, but I still think it's the audience that often doesn't appreciate. So I think people understand, I think some do, I think majority possibly don't.
Kevin:The aim with this series is to open people's eyes to what design is, what it can do and why it makes sense for them to take note. I've got one example I came across the other day, the product was hand cleansing sachets for kids.
Nathan:Okay,
Kevin:It was in a foreign language, so I couldn't read what it said. I just had to go by the overall graphic impression
Nathan:Yeah.
Kevin:and it looked like a bag of sweets.
Nathan:Yeah. We're just thinking on that. So you've got you, you can come up with a design that's appropriate for its end situation, but also you've got to think of what's fashionable, what, what trends are now. I think in the marketing and graphic side much quicker and trends are in and out and in and out. And I think when people looking at creating packaging exhibition stuff for themselves, that's another aspect that I don't think people think about. Media, it's just fast. And I think that's difficult to keep up with.
Kevin:Long term, which is intended to last for, in defined period and very throwaway design, something that you just know is not gonna be kept,
Nathan:and they would be approached, differently.
Kevin:Which is one of the differences between graphic design and architecture where you hope that architecture is gonna last
Nathan:You would approach that with the view of it's gonna last, we need to do Y, and Z and make sure that the materials last or the feel and the look of it last. Yeah. It's a throwaway, let's, if you think about an ad campaign, if it's something that's quick, you can try something that's a little bit risk because it's gone. It's out there. if that doesn't work, you might try something else. But if it's something that is a design that's on a building like some branding, like our office it's got a stone entrance with our branding chiseled into it. So a lot of thought goes into what typeface should we use because we're not gonna change it. So yeah, every brief should be. Should be approached carefully and appropriately for the outcome.
Kevin:It's remarkable to me how many aspects you've touched on i've already identified and done a podcast about, and it's very encouraging shows that somebody who's coming from a different design, field is actually thinking on very similar lines. All these things that you're interested in that excite you? Do you see them relating to each other? Is there something that links?,
Nathan:I'm not sure if there's something that links them. I think good design, like we were touching on, can make life better. If you have a product that's designed well, you can use it and have satisfaction. If you've designed something you are happy with, you get satisfaction from you knowing that you've done a good job. If somebody's happy with that design you you get positive feedback. You get enjoyment from that. I'm really into cycling, but I wouldn't buy a bike particularly on its specs. I would look at how it's designed and how that makes me feel. So product product's really important, if you've got a nice door handle, know you like door handles, you do like door handles,
Kevin:Do you like door handles?
Nathan:I do, yeah, I do like door handles. but things that work and are nice and tactile bring me joy.
Kevin:Design touches a whole range of senses. It may look good. It may sound good. The sound you get when a really well made car door closes. There's a feel to it. There sound to it, and certainly with vehicles, there's smell to them as well.
Nathan:There, is. But there you probably know this, but a car manufacturer designs in the way that the door shuts so that you get that sound. Did you know that? And it's not just, it's made well. can manufacture that with different door seals. So it gives the impression of a very expensive close. Fun fact, yes.
Kevin:Okay. So another thing I wanted to ask, what's your attitude to the development we've had in recent years of all sorts of Teach yourself YouTube videos and so on. You too can be a graphic designer, follow my course, and you do this, that and you'll become a graphic designer. What do you think about that sort of thing?
Nathan:I've probably got two sides to this answer, I would think on the positive side, I love them. I think they're fantastic. And for somebody starting out, they're great. And I, I can say hand on heart, I have watched a lot. Particularly if I'm stuck on something, great videos on they're like how to guides perhaps. You're really struggling to get this typeface to drop behind something with a texture and a you want somebody else do it, and you go, was simple now and now to do that. So on the one hand, brilliant, not? It's a learning process and I think they're really good. On the other hand, I think it's slightly killing our industry, you will get. So many people and they maybe 10, 15 years ago you class'em as a sort of a bedroom designer. So they will be learning quickly and outputting work that perhaps wasn't a higher standard than we've just discussed. But I guess that was filling that marketplace of somebody's just. Wanting a logo and it's fish boshed and bashed out and that's fine. And there's nothing wrong with that, but I think it does undercut, agencies or smaller practices, moving forward. So there's, the pool of the designer ability is massive now. Huge. it's cheap. And I think it's a harder sell. To a customer to say, we will be X amount of pounds when they could go to their brother-in-law, sister-in-law, who could do it for 20 pounds. And that, and I think, I don't think that's a sad state of design. I think that's just the way things have gone. I think a lot of industry, a lot of industries, but I do feel the skill base is being watered down a little bit. I dunno if that's a bit mean, but I feel. What do you think?
Kevin:Yeah, I think it's a very difficult one because you can apply it to any aspect of life. If somebody wants meal. And they are perfectly happy with McDonald's. And they're gonna pay a certain amount for it. If they're happy with that, and good, but if they have a real concern for food they will probably look for a different type of, restaurant, and be happy to pay whatever it's required to keep that standard up. And it's no different in the restaurant trade from anything else.
Nathan:I think that's probably what I was trying to say earlier, where you have various clients. don't really understand or possibly or care, which is fine about the importance of design or getting a better outcome for what they're after. So that type of a market works great for your bedroom designer. So yeah you're right though. It is in every industry, I think,
Kevin:I think one of the things that concerns if we go too far in the direction of, I have to have the best, no, not everybody can One of the things designers I think should be aware of is that there is nothing wrong with producing, things, even architecture, which is good of its type of, its standard. Around your own home around mine, I can pick anything at random it's not necessarily the best that you can get, but it's going to meet my needs and it's gonna meet my budget And that's fine.
Nathan:Some of the nicest products I have in my house are from IKEA and they were cheap and, but they work, they're well designed, so
Kevin:monetary cost is not the arbiter.
Nathan:It's not,
Kevin:You can get some really expensive rubbish. Would you agree?
Nathan:Yeah, totally.
Kevin:Do you see what you do as part of a bigger framework of design and how it feeds into making life better for people? Or you just deal with your bit
Nathan:Yeah a bit of both I guess. I think I do just get on, whether my input is effective of a bigger picture. I guess it is, but I'm not sure I see that bigger picture to its end. Often I'm very much at the beginning, say, for example, we're talking about designers and cost of design. We do a lot of charity work at the office and we are well aware of the music festival in Huddersfield. So if you're looking at a bigger bigger picture I'm in at the start, I generate marketing material, which then encourages students to enter, they then go on to further things because they've had the experience that I've helped design and encourage them to go to. So whether I see the end of my input, I'm not really sure, but there is definitely outcomes. It's just that I'm at the very beginning. Usually the way I probably look at it.
Kevin:And you don't feel that you need to be aware of that bigger picture to be able to do well, perhaps?
Nathan:Probably not. Maybe just quietly confident that it went well.
Kevin:No. It strikes me that you are actually quite. Quite balanced how you see what you do and don't get hung up about the bigger picture unnecessarily.
Nathan:I think,'cause I've got older, I think I've learned to stand back a little bit and appreciate what I'm doing, that's graphics or whatever and approach it from a more, a little bit isolated outside view. but that enables me then not to. Jump in and be too quick and come to conclusions that are way off where I should have been. So standing back, thinking about it, not rushing things. And I think the outcomes often much more beneficial for me and the end user. So that's, I think, but that, I think that comes with age. I think as I am getting older, I'm getting a little bit more, what's the words? I don't know. I dunno,
Kevin:End question, which is if you had the opportunity to change something about modern society, what would it be and why?
Nathan:That's a good one, Kevin. Not to get too political because I stay very much away from political subjects. And I dunno how you feel about ai. But I do think I would change the, hear me out on this one. The speedy development of AI and what it's doing to marketing materials and social media. I feel we're creating a, like a masked world. That's not really very descriptive, but everything you see online, you can't trust. It's either deep fake or it's being edited. Back in the day, we'd, we would airbrush people manually. And I do think it's accelerating to the point where we're not really sure what's real or what's what is real. I don't, and I don't think AI is bad at all. I think AI incredible. And I've used its capabilities on images we're taking out items that would've taken me hours and I can do it in minutes. So all for helpful side of it. I do often think. That world it's creating online in marketing and things, I think I'd try and slow it down a little bit or put in some some framework that you could tell if it was real or not. And I have seen this in magazines where they've actually put a note saying basically this is AI generated and it's not real. And I think that's quite important because you think you're pulling away again from the skillset of the designer if do you follow what I'm saying?
Kevin:I do, aI is a tool just like every other tool that one might use. It makes, it can make a job quicker, easier, whatever. You need to learn how to use it properly, but just a lot of other inventions, tools or whatever it can be used for wrong. It's a tool and therefore it could be very good or very bad. Is that fair comment?
Nathan:Yeah, absolutely. Like I said, I've used it in various applications to speed things up and it, and it can be really useful. but I think it's the overuse of it diminishes. The thought process of the designer and what's behind it. And I think that's probably a chat for another one of your sessions, to be honest.'cause you could talk about its pros and cons for forever. But I think unchecked, I don't think it's a great thing for most people. That's my personal opinion. but like I said, I have used it. And it's, and it can be good.
Alex:I think it's nice to hear somebody who's given it consideration. And at the moment is seriously concerned about what it may be doing.
Kevin (2):Design can have serious effects on people.
Nathan:Yeah. And I think we might have to suck it up and see what happens.
Kevin:Look, I'm really grateful. I know you were a bit concerned about the idea of doing this,
Nathan:Yeah, i'm not the best at speaking. I'll be honest. And it does give me anxiety, but I I thank you for the opportunity, Kevin, and you haven't lost any any viewers over this poor performance.
Kevin:Don't think at the moment there are many, but we're gonna be building it up.
Nathan:You're very welcome. Thank you for having me.
Kevin:And that's it. How not to do a podcast in one easy lesson. Apologies. Again, apologies to listeners and of course to Nathan. Uh, it's a big lesson for me. I will sort it out and I sincerely hope I've not stopped any chance of a future audience. Uh, well, I suppose life's like that, but there we are. Thanks for bearing with us. Bye for now.