Series 2 Episode 12: What's the Council Ever Done for Us?

Local authorities would appear to be well placed to make life better for citizens. However, their opportunities and constraints are often misunderstood by the public.

In this episode I've invited someone with first-hand knowledge of local politics to talk to me about their aspirations and frustrations as a councillor trying to make life better for residents of the authority.

Transcript

Kevin 0:07

Hello, once again. Uh, Welcome to another episode of Make Life Better by Design with me, Kevin Drayton. And today I'm very pleased to say I'm joined by Jane Rylah. Jane, I've known for a while now, um, but not in the context of design and work and so on. The reason that I wanted to invite Jane to be part of the series was because she has quite in depth experience of local politics, uh, local authorities, and I'm fascinated by how local authorities make decisions that affect a lot of people's lives. And that's really why I've asked Jane here today. But to be fair to her, there's a lot more to her than simply her, involvement in local politics. So I'm hoping that in the course of this afternoon, I'm gonna find out a bit more about Jane as well. So welcome Jane. I'll shut up for a minute. And would you like to tell us a bit more about yourself?

Jane 1:24

Thank you. Thanks Kevin. Thanks for inviting me here this afternoon. I'm Jane Rylah and for the last two years I've been Kirklees counsellor for Holme Valley South and also cabinet member with the education portfolio. So I have been very involved, uh, in, uh, Kirklees. A little bit about my background.

Kevin 1:53

Please do, please do.

Jane 1:55

My parents come from Dewsbury and that's where I spent my early years. Catholic family: four brothers, one sister, and I went to school in Dewsbury Primary School in Dewsbury and then secondary school, in Leeds, again Catholic schools. Science was always my major interest and I've got a degree in biochemistry and I followed, uh, I followed science throughout my career, firstly as, a scientific officer in London, in a number of, of different hospitals. And I very much, uh, enjoyed that. And in fact, living in London in the eighties, that was pivotal in determining my politics: Thatcher's Britain as it as it was. We then we, we moved back, uh, back north and lived in Stockport for quite a long time. And I changed jobs and became a teacher. And I was a teacher for, um, around 30 years. Wow. Not always full time because of the children. Um, and I enjoyed that as well. Yeah. So, and here I am.

Kevin 3:26

That is great. But you've said a couple of things that have intrigued me. So what were you teaching when you were teaching?

Jane 3:33

Chemistry and biology

Kevin 3:36

oh, my word. I had a previous guest on who is a chemist and still works full-time in the chemical industry. And I had to admit that I cannot understand chemistry to save my life. Biology not quite so bad. Uh, but it, it never really, it never really gripped me.

Jane 3:59

I think you've got to have a certain mind to enjoy chemistry. You have to sort of follow it and understand it and it becomes much clearer than as you sort of build up that knowledge. But biology, I actually, in terms of teaching, I've enjoyed teaching biology probably more than chemistry. Yeah. And most, most of my latter years I've, I've taught, uh, biology uh, at a sixth form college. Right in the centre of Huddersfield.

Kevin 4:28

Yeah. I think chemistry, um, it, it, there are parallels with foreign languages

Jane 4:36

mm-hmm.

Kevin 4:36

In as much that, well certainly to me it is a foreign language. And whilst you can learn a foreign language, there has to be something there that makes you want to learn it. I mean, French Italian's fairly obvious, isn't it really? You know, who wouldn't want to speak French or an Italian, but chemist, uh, sorry. But yeah, chemistry. I don't know. Um, I suppose I've understood enough not to make the old mistake of what you thought was H2O was H two SO four. I don't fall into that trap. But beyond that, no. It's sort of magic to me. So

Jane 5:16

the logic, it has logic.

Kevin 5:18

It has logic.

Jane 5:19

I like the logic of it, I think.

Kevin 5:22

Uh, does that mean you were good at maths as well then?

Jane 5:24

Um, I mean, I was good enough. Yeah. I did a level maths. Had a level maths. Yeah.

Kevin 5:29

So here we are you a confirmed rationalist chemist. Me an airy fairy all over the place, artsy type, can we find common ground? Let's see. Right. So as it is a podcast about making life better in my terms through design, but however, do you ever think about that as an aspect of what you've done and what you do now?

Jane 6:02

Up until now, no. Is the answer to that. I've thought a lot about how to make people's lives better and the work that I do in the council, uh, in involves, involves that. But I, but I can't say that I, I have been, I've thought of it in, in, in terms of design

Kevin 6:29

since I've, um, been, since I've been canoodling and asking you, will you please come on and talk about it? And I've said a little bit about how I view design. Um, have you started to think about it a bit more now or, or how you might view what you are interested in, what you think's important in terms of design?

Jane 6:53

Uh, I have been in, I have been, uh, thinking about it, and actually the more you think about it, the more you realise that, that, that everything has some design, uh, within it, you know, even things like biology, for instance, definitely clearly has

Kevin 7:10

Yeah.

Jane 7:11

Clearly, uh, has design. Yeah. So not just obviously the, you know, the obvious ones, you know, architects and, uh, et cetera.

Kevin 7:18

No, I mean, all that is just, um, it's, it's a particular little slot of design and it's the bit that too many people get fixated on. It's not that.

Jane 7:28

No, exactly. Uh, exactly. But really everything, everything has, has some design and, you know, all, all the work that we've, that I've been doing in, in biology just reinforces all of that. Yeah. But in terms of, uh, in terms of, of, of what you can do to improve people's lives, that's like a, it feels like a, a different strand. It feels like a different strand that requires design in order to do it

Kevin 7:58

Right. That's interesting.

Jane 7:59

But it, but it, it doesn't really, um, what doesn't it really do you need to have that strategy? You, you need to have the strategy initially, I would say, and you then develop then the design in, in terms of how it's going to be sort of rolled out.

Kevin 8:19

Right.

Jane 8:19

And I, the sort of things I'm, I'm sort of thinking about.

Kevin 8:22

Yeah. I was gonna ask you if you've got any sort of examples,

Jane 8:26

if, if you're trying to make lives better for people. Hmm. Then, you know, you need to think of the things that people need. Uh, so obviously people need, uh, you know, a decent place to live. And obviously, obviously building houses and going down that route. Then there's a lot of design involved in that. But just, just coming away from design a little bit, then I would say, you know, people need a decent place to live. And there there is a short, there's a shortage, uh, of that. They need access and availability of affordable food for their children. They need

Kevin 9:10

and, and themselves

Jane 9:12

and the No. Yeah. And, and themselves. Of course, they need, they need transport, uh, so that they can, they can, they can get to work and, and that needs to be accessible. And you, you do need a lot of systems involved with that. And you need, well, just coming back from housing, I mean, there are so many people that don't have their own houses, uh, and they're renting. And we, we need to have, and I'll just mention the Labour Party. The Labour Party has been bringing in, uh, more rights to people, uh, who are renting. Uh, and that can make a huge amount of difference. Uh, and jobs, you know, people need, need to have jobs that will allow them to do the things that they would, you know, just, just have an ordinary living, uh, happy life. Then they, they need to, to have that. And a lot of people don't. I mean, and that's why a lot of people are on benefits because their wages don't cover the rent for, for example. Yeah. Uh, and so, and so you need to have workers' rights then as well, so that, you know, you and me can take, uh, holidays and, uh, you know, if we're sick, uh, then, you know, for a lot of people, then that's fine. You can take that time off. Um, but for a, but for a lot of people, they don't get that, you know, if they don't go to work, then they don't get paid. So, you know, there's, there's very much, um, very much a difference between different, different groups, uh, of people.

Kevin 11:04

Can I, can I just, I mean, there is, um, but I, I tend to latch onto certain specific things, and you talked about the importance of transport.

Jane 11:14

Mm-hmm. Which,

Kevin 11:14

which I have to agree with. Mm-hmm. And, um, two, two things occur to me with that.

Jane 11:22

Yeah.

Kevin 11:23

I come from a rural village in East Anglia. Uh, which has a bus service that comprises, well, I dunno about now, but the last time I looked, so to speak, comprised, um, two buses a day, one to one town, one to another. Uh, and one would like to hope that it was the same coming back, but that's it. Now I live in a semi-rural village here in West Yorkshire, and I have got the pick of three or four bus routes, which are coming through, it seems to me coming through every half hour or so, which is fantastic. But why should there be such a discrepancy? Is it purely down to the decisions of a local authority?

Jane 12:20

Well, no, that's what we need to change it to. Uh, and, and that's, that's what's happened in Manchester, then it's been taken over, uh, into public ownership and in West Yorkshire then that's gonna happen by 2027, uh, as well. So in instead of, instead of the bus companies deciding how and when, then the local authorities or the combined authorities will be able to make those decisions. You can still use the same buses or you can get new buses. Uh, but there's, there's gonna be a whole lot of new buses. Weaver, Weaver buses, they're called, they're green buses. They look very nice.

Kevin 13:04

So there's a, there's a di there'll be a different, pardon? The expression design approach to the provision

Jane 13:10

of course, of

Kevin 13:11

public transport.

Jane 13:12

Yeah, yeah,

Kevin 13:13

yeah.

Jane 13:13

So it, it will be determined by need, not by the profit of

Kevin 13:20

anything else.

Jane 13:20

Yeah. The bus companies, I,

Kevin 13:22

I spent my student years in Sheffield.

Jane 13:26

Mm-hmm.

Kevin 13:28

And at that time, Sheffield buses were, well, I didn't understand how unusual they were, but I could pay oh, 10 pence. I, it felt like 10 pence on a Sunday morning to get the outer circular bus around Sheffield, which probably took,

Jane 13:50

I remember Sheffield as well.

Kevin 13:51

Yeah.

Jane 13:51

In terms of buses.

Kevin 13:53

Yeah. Took a, took a couple of hours to get all the way around, which it, it made me go and see the rest of the area, which I think was very important. I think getting a perspective on, on places is very important. And again, um, a, a, a cheap, uh, um, an an affordable public transport system just made that so much easier.

Jane 14:18

Totally. Totally. Uh, and it mean, it means that, that, as you say, you can do it in terms of leisure, but, but you can do it in, in, in terms of, you know, getting to work. Uh, in Kirklees something like 25% of people don't have a car and they're reliant on public transport. And in terms, in terms of, if, if we're talking about systems and we're talking about design, then you need to, you need to design a whole new system that links up, you know, the, you know, the, the big cities. You know, you've got Bradford and you, and you've got Leeds. Uh, and

Kevin 14:55

do you have to have Bradford? I mean, can we not just, no, sorry.

Jane 15:02

Uh, apparently Bradford has the, the largest number of young people in the country,

Kevin 15:09

really,

Jane 15:09

apparently. Yeah. So those young people need jobs, and they, at the moment, it's not that, it's not that great, is it transport around Bradford? No, but that's gonna improve then as well.

Kevin 15:23

Good. Um, it, it strikes me that we could quite easily make an entire podcast just talking about public transport, but

Jane 15:31

No, no. It's just an example.

Kevin 15:33

Yeah.

Jane 15:33

Yeah.

Kevin 15:34

It's an example. Mm-hmm.

Jane 15:34

Which

Kevin 15:35

is great. So you, you've already touched on this quite honestly, but before I started badgering, you, uh, you've said you didn't really think about design in the sort of terms that I talk about. So, but what to you, either before or now, or hopefully in the future, would you regard as a designer, what's the point of a designer?

Jane 16:07

What's the point? What's the point of a designer? I guess, I guess I, I need to think of a, an example. Uh, I guess we could talk about the regeneration that's going on in Huddersfield as an example. And clearly you need big picture. You need, you need the strategy, and then you need the designers. This is the way I would see it. You know, we, we might say as counsellors, well we need to do something, uh, about Huddersfield. We need to, we need to, you know, get, get a new art gallery and a museum and, uh, a food hall, et cetera, and, and, um, a new hotel. But then putting that into practise, it takes a long time. People think that you can just,

Kevin 16:58

yeah.

Jane 16:58

Click your fingers. Yeah. And it takes, it takes years. I mean, I, I, you know, I've, I've learned quite a lot. Not, not the detail of it, but, but just the sort of big picture. Yeah.

Kevin 17:09

Big picture thinking in terms of a specific project, just one specific project. It's likely to have a timescale in years, not months.

Jane 17:17

No, no, no. Not at all. No. And you need that capital investments to start off with. Uh, so I, I, I guess I can think, I mean, I, I guess I don't really know the details, but, um, but I would imagine there's a lot of designers that are involved in Huddersfield and the regeneration

Kevin 17:38

Yeah.

Jane 17:38

That is going on there

Kevin 17:40

with you being a scientist and me being an arts man largely, um, although I'm come to something else about that. Um, are you, uh, are you into, um, well, one specific poem of John Betjeman's "Come Friendly Bombs and Fall on Slough. There's nothing there worth keeping now." And, um, sometimes, you know, I do a bit despair looking at Huddersfield because Huddersfield, as I keep telling people whenever I get the opportunity, or indeed when I don't get the opportunity

Jane 18:20

mm-hmm.

Kevin 18:22

Outside of London, Kirklees- Huddersfield mainly, -but Kirklees has got the second most listed buildings

Jane 18:33

Oh

Kevin 18:33

yeah. Of any authority.

Jane 18:34

Yeah.

Kevin 18:35

And they go, what?

Jane 18:36

Mm-hmm.

Kevin 18:37

And I say, well, you can, you have a guess. It's true. The first one.

Jane 18:40

Mm-hmm.

Kevin 18:41

And the first one's Bath.

Jane 18:43

Mm-hmm.

Kevin 18:44

No, great surprise.

Jane 18:45

Mm-hmm.

Kevin 18:45

Wonderful Kirklees.

Jane 18:47

Mm-hmm. There

Kevin 18:48

we are.

Jane 18:49

And, and you, have you seen those buildings?

Kevin 18:51

Oh, yes.

Jane 18:52

Yeah.

Kevin 18:53

Oh, yes.

Jane 18:53

There's amazing buildings

Kevin 18:54

there are

Jane 18:55

in Huddersfield.

Kevin 18:55

Yeah.

Jane 18:56

Uh, I mean, I, I couldn't believe it really. I mean, I've got to know Huddersfield quite a lot. Being a counsellor. Uh, and we went into some buildings, I think it, I think it was to do with elections, and it wasn't really used that much, but they had, uh, a mass, a massive gate. And then, so you went in through that, and then there was some balconies around it, and we went up to the balconies and I was talking to the, the Kirklees officer, and I said, this is just amazing. Uh, it says, you know, why, why do they need all, all this space? And they said, oh, well, the coaches used to come in into the buildings. And I thought, that's just amazing. I mean, fortunately, Huddersfield has kept those, it's not, they haven't really been changed. And some of them are being developed and there are, I can't remember the name of it. Uh, but one of these, one of these buildings now has quite a lot of shops. It has. Quite a lot of small businesses there as well. And it seems very sort of vibrant, uh, and thriving by, I think it's Byram,

Kevin 20:08

Byram, Byram Arcade.

Jane 20:10

Yeah.

Kevin 20:12

Byram Arcade's a wonderful example. Uh, what Huddersfield has and what it can become as it changes through the, through the years, through the decades. Um,

Jane 20:24

it's a loss of, it's because it, there wasn't any money there.

Kevin 20:27

No,

Jane 20:28

the the, the money was sucked out.

Kevin 20:30

Yes.

Jane 20:30

Into, into, you know, the Southeast

Kevin 20:34

Yes.

Jane 20:34

And places like Huddersfield and, you know, lots of, lots of other places, uh, then as well, I mean, again, I, you know, I have to say that Margaret Thatcher had a lot to do with, um, you know, uh, a lot of these places going into decline and, and now they're being regenerated and that's, that's a really good thing.

Kevin 21:02

Well, I think that once we've finished our recording this afternoon, uh, we'll have a cup of tea and discuss that issue further

Jane 21:10

mm-hmm.

Kevin 21:11

Because I think, uh, we could, we could talk about that for a while, however, I'm gonna drag us Yep. Kicking and screaming back to some sort of an agenda. Yeah. Um, let's, let's think in terms of your, your other interests, your other activities outside that, of being involved in, in a local authority. Um, I mean, I know for example, that you play tennis, you have a, you have a passion.

Jane 21:42

I try. Yeah.

Kevin 21:42

Well, I, I spend an hour demonstrating this morning how I can't do it however, but I have you got other interests that, um, you know, you sort of can consider in terms of design or, or not?

Jane 22:00

I guess in terms of design, not, not really in terms of design. I've never, I guess I'm one of these, well, as, as a, a young person, I always thought I was rubbish at art and all of those creative things. So I, I, because I was, you know, I did very well at other things in school. Um, but, but things that were sort of more creative things I found more difficult, so I sort of like switched away from that.

Kevin 22:32

Now, to what extent was that inherent in you, and to what extent was that down to your teachers, do you think?

Jane 22:43

I think it was probably down to the teachers really because of later years when, when I had children, then I became a lot more creative again. I used to think, well, I can never, I can't even draw anything, you know? And I just, uh, but then you can learn most things. Uh, uh, I'm never gonna be, um, somebody who's really, really good at it. But I, I think it's, it's like that with lots of things. People say, you know, I can't do maths or I can't do this. But actually most people can do most things up to a certain level. Really? Yeah. Yeah. And then, and then you stop.

Kevin 23:22

Yeah.

Jane 23:22

Yes,

Kevin 23:22

yes. That's, that's very true. But I think the other side of it that has taken a long time to get over is the idea that, say being good at art or being an artist means creating a, a picture or a sculpture or whatever, um, that is recognisably of whatever the subject is. Well, hopefully now, you know, with take anybody you'd like Rothko, Mark Rothko, for example. No, it doesn't have to be that.

Jane 23:58

No.

Kevin 23:58

Um, and it's much more about going back beyond that to the, the fundamental wellsprings of creativity and how certain, like certain crises in people's lives, make them discover something within them that they've not had before. Whether it's writing poetry, singing, just screaming. You know, it's, I mean, I've inevitably, um, because I, I'm arts biassed, not entirely, but I'm arts biassed. I've had a lot of experience of all sorts of different, uh, art forms. Like dance, for example. I'm very passionate about dance.

Jane 24:44

I didn't really think about dancing. I love dancing. Whenever, whenever, whenever me and Ian are out and we get the opportunity. We love it. Both of us. Yeah. Uh, and that's something that's, that's very sort of creative.

Kevin 25:00

It is. But you're not doing classic.

Jane 25:01

You sort of just do what you want. Really.

Kevin 25:03

You're not doing classical ballet, are you? No. No, exactly. So there's always a spectrum, isn't there?

Jane 25:09

Of course. Yeah.

Kevin 25:10

But it does something for you.

Jane 25:11

Mm-hmm. Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah, sure.

Kevin 25:15

Right.

Jane 25:16

So yeah. I mean, dancing, I like, I like music. Uh, I like art when I get the opportunity. I like going to art galleries. Um, I did used to play music. I used to play the flute. I'm just remembering these things now. Oh, it's all coming back. Yeah. Um. Yeah, I used to play the flute when I was at school, but it wasn't my flute. It belonged to the school. So when I left school, then I never, I never played it after that, which seems ridiculous. Really? It's awful. It is. Yeah. But we didn't, you know, we had a big family. We didn't, parents didn't have enough money to buy each one of us.

Kevin 25:53

No.

Jane 25:53

An instrument. So, and we moved on and anyway, I, I think I, I preferred sport to be honest than, than being in the orchestra, although I was in the school orchestra. Yeah,

Kevin 26:05

yeah, yeah. Well, that perhaps brings me to another of my, my great tenets is that it's all, well, not all about, but a very important factor is being able to connect things, Edward Morgan Forster from Howard's End:" Only Connect." Only connect and human love, blah, blah, blah. But that's, that's not it. But only connect things. If you can find what the connection is in apparently disparate things, it can open up whole new worlds. So the great

Jane 26:50

thing, what is that design? Is that

Kevin 26:51

yes, it is design,

Jane 26:52

right?

Kevin 26:53

Oh, yes. It's because finding, finding something in one arena

Jane 27:00

mm-hmm.

Kevin 27:02

That you, that sparks an idea that you can apply in this arena. That is a, that's what we need. Because if all you ever do is repeat the same thing over and over, you design by rote. You don't design by rote, you just reproduce by rote. But genuine design means looking at the situation and bringing your experience and expertise to bear on that and see whether we can do something that will ultimately make life better. And the more experience that you've got of different arenas, different ways of looking at things, of doing things, that puts you in the best position to find a solution to a situation that, that needs changing.

Jane 27:57

No, I get that. Yeah, I get that. Yeah. I mean, I was just thinking of, you know, house building and, um, you know, some of the developers now have agreed to have little places so that the birds can get in there so that, so that you've got that biodiversity or you've maintained as much as possible of that biodiversity. Uh, so I guess there are sort of little things

Kevin 28:22

that's Jake, sorry. Uh, the listeners, somebody's just walked past the window and Jane's obviously thought, what's that? And it's, uh, it's my friend Jake. It's okay.

Jane 28:33

With his bag.

Kevin 28:34

I do apologise. Sorry. You were in mid flow there.

Jane 28:37

Yeah, just, yeah. Things like house building. I mean, inevitably we, as a counsellor then we come across a, a lot of people who, who don't like houses being built. Like, full stop. Not in my backyard.

Kevin 28:55

Exactly.

Jane 28:56

You know, no. Nobody wants to be sort of, um, messed up for several years, you

Kevin 29:02

know, while they build their houses. Did you give them the obvious question? Well, when was your house built and when did you move in? Uh oh. Right. Really? And you've just objected to Yeah. Anyway. Yeah,

Jane 29:15

yeah, yeah. But there are mitigating things that, that you can do. Um, as a counsellor, we sort of try to do some of those things. We generally can't stop things because it, it's all set out, uh, in terms of procedure. So if it fulfils certain criteria, then it has to go up. It has to go ahead. Otherwise, if we, if Kirklees say no, okay, you can't do that, then there'll just be an appeal, and the appeal will cost the

Kevin 29:46

Yes.

Jane 29:46

Council huge amounts of money and it'll get passed anyway.

Kevin 29:50

But the, the point is that that's, um, that's a very crude level of, of influence, a crude level of, um, involvement because it take housing and is a bug bear of mine. Most housing now comes to us through private developers, builders, whereas in the past we have had local authority housing. We've had local authority architects departments. When I first came to Kirklees, there was an architect's department and, um, not, not first one, I used to know Derek Vane, but, uh, Nick Snow was a, was a great guy and by complete fluke happened to be related to John Snow, the newscaster, which I thought was interesting. Mm. But he was a nice guy and he knew what he wanted to do with that. All gone. All gone.

Jane 30:51

So what year was that?

Kevin 30:53

That's back in the, that'll be back in the mid eighties,

Jane 30:57

right?

Kevin 30:59

Yeah, that's back in the mid eighties.

Jane 31:01

And they were building houses.

Kevin 31:03

They were

Jane 31:03

mm-hmm.

Kevin 31:04

And they, the, the architects department was heavily involved in education buildings and, and all sorts.

Jane 31:10

Mm-hmm.

Kevin 31:11

However, yes, that has gone now. Um, but it

Jane 31:17

will come back.

Kevin 31:18

Yeah. Yeah. Well, like most

Jane 31:20

things, that is the plan.

Kevin 31:21

The pendulum, you know, does eventually reach the silly outer limits and comes back, but. But yeah, the point is that it's the volume builder who will come forward with this proposal. Um, what you are more or less then saying is, what I would like here is a sheep, but all you are giving me is a pig. So what can I do to make that pig more like a sheep? Well, it's very, very limited. Very limited. Nobody's going back to first principles and saying, look, actually what we need here and what this does, and this is the only connect thing for me, this ties back to what we were talking about with public transport. People need public transport, I think you said, to get from where they live to where they work.

Jane 32:19

Sure.

Kevin 32:22

I've gotta be careful here because I'm the host, not the, not the guest. But one of the things that I remember very vividly was putting a proposal for a site to the local authority. It was Kirklees council in this case. Not that it had to be because we worked all over, but it was for a joint housing with small business facility, sort of large workshop type thing. A development of that in a particular area. And it's refused because that's scheduled for housing, that's schedule for industry and you can't muck about with it. Well, as it turns out, not very long afterwards, a number of other authorities around the country thought, Hmm, actually it's not a bad idea. And they were developed and they've been quite successful. But that's the, that's the only connect thing, you know, if the public transport wasn't there, then bringing the, the, the opportunity to work together with the opportunity to live in something that was at the time completely different. It needs people to, to get to free up their thinking to be able to consider that.

Jane 33:38

Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I get that. Yeah. Um, but if you, but if you have all those links, then it, it, it gives people, it gives people those options as well. They don't have to just stay in their, in their town or even in, in, in their city. Then they can move around quite a lot. And you can get more people living there as well. I mean, the idea Huddersfield, say regeneration of Huddersfield, you know, one of the, the, the strategic view is that, uh, some of those buildings that we were talking about, those very nice buildings, some of them are being developed into nice apartments with the plan to try and encourage young, young people. I mean, maybe graduates of, uh, Huddersfield, uh, university. 'cause you need to keep those graduates as well.

Kevin 34:35

Yes.

Jane 34:35

Or even say from Leeds because they'd be cheaper than an equivalent. And it's, you know, less than five minutes to the station. So you can still commute and get to Leeds, you can get to Manchester. Uh, and, and that will make a big difference as well. So having that transport allows more people to live there or not live there or move around or whatever. And same with businesses as well.

Kevin 35:02

Yeah.

Jane 35:03

So you can get more businesses coming in then

Kevin 35:06

we could very easily veer off into reminiscence of mine about instances that relate to what you've just said. Mm-hmm. Because many years ago I was involved in, uh, a project in Stoke on Trent, where the potteries were closing down. It was old industry that was disappearing. I mean, they kept obviously the cream and that was doing nicely, but a lot of them closed down. And the thing that made that, that we put forward as a proposal, which I think would've made a lot of sense, was that they were ideal for conversion to residential units, small flats, you know, student or ex student flats. And they were generally by the canal in Stoke.

Jane 35:57

Mm-hmm.

Kevin 35:59

And the towpath by the canal was a very safe, very direct route from what would be the residential into the, the town centre. The city centre. And I think, you know, a lot of people at the time said, you are all bonkers. You know, why don't you just get on with designing how the kitchen door opens and so on. But you've got to, you have got to go beyond that.

Jane 36:25

Yeah.

Kevin 36:26

I think as a, I would say designer, whether that's for sure capital D or small D

36:31

mm-hmm.

Kevin 36:32

If we are gonna make people's lives better.

Jane 36:34

Mm-hmm.

Kevin 36:36

Right. So that's that's stopped you talking then they had me, which is not good. I'm here for you to get talking.

Jane 36:42

But there are a lot of places like, I mean like Holmfirth, you know, there's some regeneration, uh, going there. And Slaithwaite is a, is another good example.

Kevin 36:51

Wow. It's, it's the place now.

Jane 36:54

Sure. Yeah. And it was just a little village and now, and now everybody's sort of Slawit, that's the place to be, you know, and people want to move there, et cetera.

Kevin 37:02

There's a reminiscence that, um, I think I will probably try and cut out in the edit, but I'll tell you many, many, many, many years ago, two guys, Jonathan Silver and Sir Ernest Hall were two very visionary characters, very different. One was, I suppose, quite traditional old school, Sir Ernest, uh, Jonathan was young and entrepreneur, but they, they found each other and clicked and they wanted to undertake a development in Huddersfield, uh, at some old Mills. And I think it's safest to say that when they approached the local authority, because it did need to be a cooperative venture, they were highly sceptical. Highly sceptical. And what happened was that Jonathan and Sir Ernest thought, use the vernacular, sod this for a game of soldiers and went to Dean Clough.

Jane 38:17

Right.

Kevin 38:19

And anybody that doesn't know Dean Clough, uh, please look it up. 'cause it's an interesting study. But they then developed Dean Clough because, largely because the local authority there said, whew. Yeah, we'll have a bit of that and got on board with them.

Jane 38:37

Well, yeah, you've gotta have that vision, haven't you?

Kevin 38:40

I'll cut that, don't worry. Um, so is there, is there any way in which you think good design has improved your personal life?

Jane 38:51

Good design. I'm just trying to think. Really. I think it may have passed me by, we

Kevin 39:00

now have 20 seconds of silence.

Jane 39:02

Well, I don't know. I may have, let me just have a, a think.

Kevin 39:08

Check your notes. Check your notes.

Jane 39:09

Yeah. There's lots of things that I think could be done, really.

Kevin 39:12

Oh, right. But the scope for, scope for making life better. But

Jane 39:17

I mean, there's lots of things Yeah. That, that there are, there are lots of things, uh, that, that can be done that, that haven't really been done. Yes.

Kevin 39:26

Just give us an example.

Jane 39:27

Uh, well, I mean, I think just the, the, the way we're sort of drifting at the moment is, is more and more, I think towards cars. Cars and big cars and fast cars. And, uh, the poor pedestrians, uh, are and, and are not getting. What what they should have really. Um, because of that, I mean, I, I, if I was, if I was gonna be, uh, in charge, if I

Kevin 39:59

ruled

Jane 39:59

the world, if I ruled the world, yeah, then we would have smaller cars. We would have slower cars, uh, and we'd, we'd have better, you know, better transport and just a nicer environment for people to live in, you know, a greener environment, you know, so, you know, more cycle lanes, uh, more green spaces, more playgrounds, uh, more nice walks in the countryside. I mean, there's, there's, you know, beautiful stuff around here and you can do it. Yeah. There are lovely walks.

Kevin 40:32

Yeah.

Jane 40:32

Um, but, but to sort of link it a bit better with the town. So, so for example, you know, with, with the river, uh, with the, with the home, river, river, then it could be, there could, there could be more paths sort of in and out and it could be more inclusive so that every everybody is able, uh, to be involved, you know, whether you are an elderly person with a sort of push along trolley or whether you've got a pram or you know, whether you're a wheelchair loser, you user, uh, then all of that would be very inclusive then as well. You'll have to cut that out.

Kevin 41:15

No, it just strikes me that, um, you are so focused on society. your community and so on the larger scale. Well, no, I think

Jane 41:26

I'm, yeah.

Kevin 41:26

That you find it very difficult Yeah. To think about yourself.

Jane 41:29

No, you, you probably, no, you are probably right. Really? Yeah. I can't think of it in terms of design though.

Kevin 41:37

Can you not think of something really simple? Like, for example, I remember, I remember getting a gadget that revolutionised my life in the kitchen because it made getting lids off jars so much easier.

Jane 41:57

Mm-hmm.

Kevin 41:58

Now, somebody, you could say somebody had to invent that, well, there is invention and there's design and there's an intimate relationship between them. But usually invention is the, the crude, fundamentally it needs to do this. And design gets brought in to refine that and adapt it to production and how people are gonna use it and resources, you know, don't make it take up more scarce resources than it has to, and so on. But that is a classic example of the tiniest scale, not the tiniest, at a very small scale of how design, for me can make life better. I think of, I think of. You know, the, the standard thing is poor old ladies, well, you know, cracky, you've gotta be careful what you say there. 'cause they're not poor old ladies until they're in their late nineties nowadays.

Jane 42:55

Sure.

Kevin 42:56

However, there are some living on their own. They can't get the lids off jars, they can't open those pull tabs on tins of, bakedbeans or whatever. The taps on their sinks are really tricky to operate. And it just so happens that the house that they've lived in for 70 years has circular doorknobs that again, are almost impossible to operate. Now. You can apply all that and as a designer, you have got tremendous scope to make life better for people just in the same way at a national level. You can do it by sorting out, uh, uh, transport infrastructure. And it's, it's asking people to think, look, okay, that's too big for you to consider, but just think about the tiny things in your life and how they can make your own and other people's lives better.

Jane 43:54

Sure. I get that. Yeah. I mean, because we've had to do similar things with my mum who's in her nineties and make life easier for her and say, well, safer really, I think as much as anything,

Kevin 44:08

but easier and safer is surely better as well, isn't it?

Jane 44:13

Oh, definitely. Yeah. Yeah, it is. Yeah.

Kevin 44:16

Yeah.

Jane 44:16

Yeah.

Kevin 44:17

Not least because it gives you more peace of mind.

Jane 44:20

Mm-hmm.

Kevin 44:21

And that's gotta be better for you.

Jane 44:22

Mm-hmm. And have, it's interesting, uh, 'cause she has carers as well, and the carers, they come in four times a day now and they always write a little summary, uh, of, you know, how's Eileen been? What does she, blah, blah, blah, you know, and it's all on an app. And the app is brilliant because I often ring her up. I might ring her in the evening and she doesn't answer. And I think, is she all right? I'm sure she is all right. 'cause she often doesn't answer the phone. But then you, you, you can have a look at the app and you can see that the carer came in at eight o'clock and she was in bed by half past eight, and you can look the next morning and Oh yeah, Eileen's fine. She's having a breakfast at the moment sort of thing. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, something like that, I mean, I don't dunno whether you'd call that design, but that's, that's very, that's really, really helpful.

Kevin 45:16

Certainly. It's, certainly it's, I mean, I'm, I'm a bit of a, a bit of a hoarder in as much that I will, I will take design as applying to as many things as I can because I genuinely believe, uh, design just does infiltrate, uh, permeate everything.

Jane 45:39

I guess, I guess most people don't really think of it as being design though. They just think of it as being just sort of new technology.

Kevin 45:45

And, and this is in part what I'm trying to do with the, the podcast. I mean, in my sort of ordinary, everyday working life as an architect, what you came to realise, I think, quite rapidly is that there are a lot of things that you take for granted in your head as to the right way to approach things or to think about them, go about sorting them out. And much of it means absolutely nothing to people. And that's even people who are, who are clients who come to you with looking for something specific, but they don't understand where in my case, it's architects, but other designers are coming from. So the podcast is in part about trying to just make people more aware of how design does become involved in all sorts of things, and how if they relate to it, uh, in a particular way, it can help make their lives better and other people's.

Jane 46:55

Mm-hmm.

Kevin 46:55

Everybody's; it's a win-win.

Jane 46:58

Um, yeah. Well, of course, I mean, all of these things can,

Kevin 47:03

now I usually strap people to the chair for oh, a good half hour or so, and I've done that with you and you've not complained yet, which is terrific. So I am going to put to you the question that I'm trying to put to all my guests You said, if I ruled the world. Okay. If you had the ability, the capacity to do one thing to change modern society, what would it be?

Jane 47:41

So many things. Really?

Kevin 47:42

Yeah. Well there we are. Um, you could, you could try running through half a dozen until I turn the microphone off. I don't mind.

Jane 47:52

Well, but I don't know. Does it have to be about design?

Kevin 47:54

No.

Jane 47:55

Okay.

Kevin 47:56

Because it will be about design, even if you don't think it is.

Jane 48:00

Yeah. I think I'd do something about social media. Get rid of social media. I think, I think it is just toxic. I think it just, you, you just get the worst of people on, on social media. Uh, now I don't know how that can be changed if it, if it can be somehow reg regulated so that some of the really nasty stuff, uh, that comes out of social media. Um, but the, but yeah, the, the, the problem is that it's run by people who don't want change. I think we need, we need a lot of change really in terms of, in terms of just having a, a kinder country where, you know, people are not at each others' throats all the time.

Kevin 48:54

But you can't impose

Jane 48:56

No, no, you can't. No. But, but you, you can regulate, you know, because

Kevin 49:00

people speak. Can you regulate, can you regulate free speech? Is free speech important to you or not? Do you think we have too much free speech?

Jane 49:09

I think we shouldn't have hate speech. There's a difference between, you know, free speech, uh, and hate speech when people are threatening somebody to, you know, I I'm gonna kill you, I'm gonna rape you. I'm going to, you know, there's awful stuff, uh, that, that, that is out there. Yeah. Uh, and if, if you, if, and if you're picking on particular groups, then as well, uh, then I, I think that that can definitely be, uh, regulated. You know, whether you're talking about Jewish people, whether you're talking about Muslims, whether you're talking about women,

Kevin 49:49

you see, you've, you've gone beyond the immediate question, which is probably, no, it's fine. Which is good. You've gone straight from social media. I deal with and straight that that's, that was quick, that was easy. And now it's right. So now I have to say to you, well, how would you regulate? How could you regulate it?

Jane 50:15

I think we've become a country that, that now allows things, and it's because the politics has changed. The politics has, has become much more toxic. And so there are people who then feel that it's fine. It's okay to say those things. So I don't know how you can put that back into the box. I mean, hopefully, maybe gradually things will change politically.

Kevin 50:46

It's got, it can only be gradual. You're not going to wake up next week or even next year.

Jane 50:52

No, but I think, I think what I would like, I would like to see it moving in the right direction rather than the other direction where things get worse and worse.

Kevin 51:04

Jane, we've clearly only touched on the tip of the iceberg of things that, um, I'm sure we could have a very interesting discussion about, you've done brilliantly to try and keep this related vaguely to design, as I've insisted you do.

Jane 51:24

No, no, that's fine.

Kevin 51:27

But it's been absolutely fascinating and I'm really grateful that I finally managed to pin you down on this one. Uh, I'm really looking forward to hearing the final version of this. So thanks again.

Jane 51:38

No, thank you. I've enjoyed it. I've enjoyed us, you know, having the opportunity to talk, even if it hasn't always, uh, been about design.

Kevin 51:48

Good. Well, I'm, I'm, I'm glad 'cause it's been, it's been very enjoyable for me. Now, uh, as you may have noticed, um, there's a bit of a gap between, uh, this podcast and the previous one. Uh, it's because I am fundamentally lazy, but I've also been doing other things. We will hopefully get back on track, uh, with our regular podcasts. Till then, thank you very much indeed for listening, if you have been, and I look forward to being with you again. Bye for now.