Moving Beyond the Grind Culture with Carrie Fabris

In this episode of Strategic Shift, executive coach Carrie Fabris discusses the critical shift toward human-centered leadership as organizations navigate the complexities of AI, hybrid work, and shifting employee expectations. The conversation provides actionable insights for HR leaders on bridging the gap between C-suite ROI demands and the human needs of the workforce 

 
Timestamps: 

01:34 Carrie’s Background and CareerFrame 

02:32 Future of Work Culture Trends 

04:04 Leadership Buy In and ROI 

08:16 Retention and Strengths Engagement 

10:14 Job Hugging Tough Love 

13:46 Hybrid Work and AI Policies 

17:46 Staying Human With AI 

21:45 Top Skills for the Next Decade 

24:00 Finding the Right Coach 

27:30 Books and Final Takeaways 

Connect with Carrie Fabris:
CareerFrame 

LinkedIn 

Connect with Christy Honeycutt: 

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Tune in for real conversations, fresh insights, and strategies that actually help you stay ahead. Follow now and start making your own strategic shift. 
 

Is your organization prepared for the Future of Work? Learn more: https://www.pepelwerk.com/build-my-future-workforce/ 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

And all the research shows that the happier someone is, the more they can be in their strength zone, the more productive they're gonna be, the more engaged they're gonna be because it feels good, they're gonna want to keep doing it, and it just goes round and round and round. Leaders don't not awesome leaders don't pay attention to that. They just put somebody in a seat because it serves them, versus putting the person in a seat that serves that person, so we get that productivity out of that person. So when that doesn't happen, yes, I'm sure that does lead to retention.

SPEAKER_01 0:32

People work is proud to present Strategic Shift, a podcast dedicated to exploring the future of work. Thank you for joining us as we hear stories of bold decisions and workforce innovations. I'm Christy Honeycutt, and I'm your host. Hi, I am so excited and honored to have on the show today Carrie Fabriz. She is the founder and chief reframer of Career Frame, a coaching and leadership development firm. Carrie is also the author of a couple of books. Fans are fantastic. You definitely want to hear more about fans. And all in, it's a working mom's unapologetic quest for a juicy life. Carrie shares what she's seen in the market when it comes to coaching her executive teams and large organizations. She brings a unique perspective to culture and engagement and really brings some insight about remaining human in the age of AI and what you, the individual and the organization, need to know to thrive in the future of work. Let's jump in, shall we? Carrie, thank you so much for joining the show. I know that my introduction did not do you justice. Would you love to just share a little bit about yourself and Career Frame? Yes, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:44

Um so excited to be here and have what I have, I know is going to be a totally authentic, awesome conversation with you. So I am looking forward to this. Um yeah, I would just say that I am bringing 15 years of leadership experience in corporate to the business that I created 10 years ago, which is Career Frame. We've done a lot of really awesome, exciting things with companies in many different industries, strengths-based, emotional intelligence involvement, as well as adaptive leadership. And so I'm just looking forward to seeing where the conversation goes today, taking all of that in.

SPEAKER_01 2:17

Me too. And I'm actually very excited because we haven't had an executive coach, a people coach, a human coach on the show yet. And I think that you can give us a lot of insight for organizations, but also for individual contributors. So let's jump off, shall we? I'm curious. So you talk to organizations and C-suite leaders all the time and coach many of them, as we know. What are some of the trends that you're seeing around the future of work in terms of engagement and culture?

SPEAKER_02 2:46

Yeah, so I am seeing what I think is more of a grind culture with companies these days. Uh, not all of them, thank God. There are a lot of companies, especially as technology starts, you know, becoming the AI movement, everything of where the world is going. It's almost like companies are bragging about their six-day work weeks, their 12-hour work days, you know, we don't have a work-life balance. And I don't understand that. I don't understand how that could be a positive thing. And so, with that, seeing burnout for people who really don't want to be burned out. Like people want to go to their work and their jobs or career or however they want to define it. And and yet when they get there, they're it's trend, it's transactional. It's sometimes more transactional with the leadership than it is meaningful and human and purpose-driven. And that just that hurts my executive coach heart a little bit. So when I see stuff like that, I'm just, again, transactional in a number versus more of the, again, the human side.

SPEAKER_01 3:52

So with it moving to the transactionally based, and I think you and I are the same rule of thought that the human is first, which a lot of organizations say the human is first, but the proof is not always in the pudding. What are you seeing? How are you seeing some of your executive leaders tackling this issue? How are they helping bring purpose and maybe tie it to mission vision of the organization?

SPEAKER_02 4:15

Yeah, I I so I see, I see different types, right? I do see the and it also depends on who in an organization has brought the team and be into their organization. Okay. So if it's the if it's the CEO, founder, president, that level, they are bringing us in because they're the type of person you understand that leadership development is a must. It's not a nice to have, it's a must. They believe in it. They don't really have the time or desire to do it themselves, but they believe in the importance of it. And so they see that they've got these high-performing humans and they want them to be even more high performing. They want them to elevate, they want them to be supported. Then you have other organizations where let's say someone from HR will bring us in and there's a disconnect with the CEO or the founder of the president. Okay. So you've got the the people team over here going, we see the people, we want to support the humans, even though our founder, president, CEO is more, you know, bottom line. And when you cuts to learn to development, it is it is challenging to measure to the bottom line dollar because it's the soft skills. The soft skills are strategic. They are important. They are again, how is the human showing up to do the work that you need them to do? So I would just say that it really depends on who we're talking to and who gets it. And as adults, right, we all get set in our way. So some of us can learn different behaviors, eat things differently. Others were like, nope, this is the way it's been. This is how I've always done it. This is how it's gonna continue to be. And what got us here will get us there, as I say.

SPEAKER_01 5:51

Well, and I love that you say the bottom line. And then the the HR teams are very, you know, all about the people. That's what they're responsible for. So there's gotta be, and I know the C-suite's gonna want to see ROI, they're gonna want to see the justification for investing in something that that you and I think is a no-brainer. Are there guidance or tips that you have for those HR leaders to try to obtain buy-in to convince the C-suite if it's not starting at that area?

SPEAKER_02 6:18

Yeah, I think it's important to ask the person. So in this example, HR asking the CEO or president, how are they going to measure the success of this type of program? And if it is straight to we need to see the dollars impacted, that's when I quite frankly, I would go back to them and go, okay, like what? Because it sounds really good to say it needs to be measured to the ROI, but other than like sales, the sales team, we can directly, you know, correlate that to the ROI. There's all kinds of things that in a business, you really can't black and white analytically attach to an ROI. So usually when I'm talking with someone, uh, I had a conversation with a CFO recently, as a matter of fact. And I asked this question how will you know what we're doing is successful? And I mean, if I could have gone around the table and kissed him on the cheek, I would have. That would have been awkward. But I thought about it in my head because he said the most amazing response that is music to an executive coach or leadership developer's ears. And it was, this is different. You I don't know how you would measure this straight to the dollar ROI in the bottom line. This and I guess, okay, well, how would you, how's it different? How will you know it's been a successful outcome? Because if six months from now and my team said, I don't know what this is, this is dumb, we're not using it. Why are we doing this? That is not a successful outcome, and this is not a successful ROI. But if the team says, Oh my gosh, we're communicating better, we have better meetings, we have shorter meetings, we're collaborative, we're clear, and things are moving more effectively, then that is this a successful outcome. So I would just say to HR folks, it's it's not challenging in a way that's going to irritate the leader, but it's literally like, well, what type of measurement are you looking for? And explain to me how that works. And like just getting a little bit more detail so it's out of their mouth of what they're looking for.

SPEAKER_01 8:17

I love that. I'm assuming that and I'm glad you didn't kiss the CFO on the cheek, but it sounds like it was a good share. I'm wondering if retention would play into that too, because happier employees that are communicating better and have a better culture, largely from understanding themselves and other people, has to play into retention. Yeah, I would I would think it totally does.

SPEAKER_02 8:39

And it also said a lot about a culture if they're tracking retention or not.

unknown 8:44

Oh.

SPEAKER_02 8:44

Because if they're and then if they're tracking the retention and getting the feedback of why are you leaving? People Gallup, so I'm a certified Clifton Strengths coach, and half of Gallup is research, the other half is engagement. And so they they do tons of stuff with companies, large companies, global companies around engagement. And all the research shows that the happier someone is, the more they can be in their strength zone, the more productive they're gonna be, the more engaged they're gonna be because it feels good, they're gonna want to keep doing it, and it just goes round and round and round. And so, yes, with someone, and I'm sure someone listening can be like, I know exactly what Kiri's talking about. When I say if you're if you've ever been frustrated at work, okay, please show me someone who hasn't been. But if you've been frustrating at work, this is an example of you not being able to be engaged in a way that helps you be productive. And leaders don't not awesome leaders don't pay attention to that. They just put somebody in a seat because it serves them versus putting the person in a seat that serves that person so we can get that productivity out of that person. So when that doesn't happen, yes, I'm sure that does lead to retention. I've actually coached people who have left because a leader completely was not this was not listening to this person's needs, was not seeing the person's needs. It's all about the leader, and the person's like, well, watch this, and they leave. So yeah, there's gotta be a correlation to retention.

SPEAKER_01 10:14

You bring a really good point to the table, which is job hugging. So we've all heard it, these wonderful terms we like to throw out into the HR universe. But job hugging is the latest and greatest. And I don't blame them in this economy. I don't blame somebody holding on to something for dear life until they have the next thing. But I also look at organizations that have individuals who are job hugging, they're not happy, they're probably not contributing to the best of their ability. It's going to impact multiple layers and almost essentially be a cancer within the organization, impacting other individuals and output. So, what are your thoughts around if you're an individual and you're in a situation and you're job hugging, outside of calling you and your team like ASAP, what can the individual do and what can the organization do to kind of stop this or mitigate this risk?

SPEAKER_02 11:02

The person who's doing the job hugging, the the first thing that pops in my mind is I want to ask them, why? Why are you job hugging? Why are you in this role? I actually I love watch, I love asking leaders that question where I'm like, okay, title compensation off the table. Why are you leading people? Because I really, I really want to understand what's at the core of that. And so if I was to ask someone who was just hanging into hanging on to a job and I said the same thing, compensation benefit off the table. Why are you here? Why do you get up every morning and come here? They now they might get uncomfortable, they might not like the answer, but it's all it's it's not for me to sit here and tell them how they're behaving or feeling. It's about getting them to admit it themselves and and own itselves. It's all about owner ownership and accountability. If you are um I I do, I have seen situations where you do have these people just hanging on, and what the people don't realize, and imagine they're not realizing it because they're probably not thinking beyond themselves, is your butt is in that seat and you're just coasting, and we're not actually getting high performance out of you, you're actually blocking us from putting a high performing person in that seat and elevating the business to the next level. And I uh I so I'm a little bit of a tough love coach, Christy, and playfully direct. I'm also Gen X. So when I hear someone with their when anytime there's any kind of entitlement or there's just not going all in. I sometimes go. So you you expect the company to pay to pay you, right? Yeah. Okay. What if the company has expected you to do this job description in exchange? It's it works both ways. So if you're gonna sit in a seat, take the money, but not give your all, it's it's time to like really ask yourself questions about why that is. And HR departments, that's a tricky, that's a tricky place. That's where you get in a verbal pimp, then you go into a written pimp. Like sometimes we have shock people, respectfully, but shock people to let them know or to get them to admit something that they're not, they're scared to admit. And I get it, if it's because of money and benefit, that is a legit real thing. There's a lot of people that need to work, they need the money, they need the benefits for multiple different reasons, and so I definitely am not doing that at all and not chaining that at all. It's more as helping them to realize that they might not be performing to the their best ability and the ripple effect that that causes.

SPEAKER_01 13:41

So for themselves and the organization, it's a two-sided coin. Yeah, it's very much a two-sided coin. So basically the new environments that we're working in with hybrid and we're working with AI. What are you seeing in your work around that? What challenges are organizations facing around these items?

SPEAKER_02 14:04

So with hybrid, I am seeing the struggle with subcompanies still wanting to bring their employees back into the office five days a week. But I think there's a little bit of a fear of a mass exodus. Um, no, maybe not as strong as it would have been, but the economy being a little bulky right now. The when you have when you lose people or you lose that knowledge, right? And all the knowledge that goes with them. So I think that they're juggling what's the best path. Um, some clients I'm working with, they have measures in place to where they can see if someone's at their desk. You know, like is your team's light red or is it green or is it yellow? Like, what what is are you at the desk and are you working? Also setting KPIs, are you meeting these objectives so we know you're being productive and when they're not being met and you're working from home, now we need to have a conversation. Help me understand why this I'm seeing both clients come back five days a week and you get a little bit of kicking and screaming. And some some of those executives are like, deal with it. This is what we're doing as an organization. Um, and then we have other organizations where again they've got they put measures in place just to secure activity with technology. Um all of the AI stuff is so fascinating. It's so fascinating. And the godfather of AI who just won the Nobel Peace Prize for it and was basically talking about all the things that it does, but then warning us about all the scary things it can do if we train it wrong. When it comes to work, I use it, I use AI specifically as a productivity tool. And I think it does matter on the company. There are some of my clients they cannot use Chat GBT. Um, they've got to use Copilot or they need to use some other type of another client. They decided we're using Gemini, we're not using chat. So there's company policy around AI that you're going to use. But I think that all of these platforms have AI built into them. So they think it's about using it for productivity. And I think that that is a huge benefit to I've been I was in a meeting last week with a new client and they have their theme for the year. And I was like, awesome. So tell me about that theme. And no one could tell me. And I'm like, so we have the theme, but we we don't know how we're defining the theme. Is that what I'm hearing? Yeah, pretty much. I'm like, okay, we'll time out. So I gave them, why don't you all go into AI, give it a couple prompts, describe the company, hear the words you're thinking, and come up with five to ten, five word or less little slogans of what this could mean, and then you all vote on it. So this is just an example of just technology with increase dramatically increasing productivity. And beyond that, I am not qualified to talk about technology. But technology for be at work, it's really not AI, just where that's going and how we use it to work smarter and harder.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

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SPEAKER_01 17:46

And I think that with AI coming into the workplace, just with full force, it's definitely there. Interesting to see how different organizations are adapting or not adapting to it. And then individuals, the fear or no fear. What can they do? What can they not do? And I think, and I believe you feel the same way, is that we have to keep more now than ever, we have to stay human-centered. And I'm curious from the human-centric lens, with all of this noise coming at us and speed just a hundred times faster than it was even 12 months ago. Yeah. How are individuals you're coaching and organizations you're coaching keeping up with this? Are there any tips or tricks that you have for us common folk out there navigating? To stay human, to keep the human piece involved?

SPEAKER_02 18:35

Yeah. Yeah. I'm to the best of my ability and to the impact that I'm able to make, I bring human, the word human, into almost every conversation. Because technology is amazing. It's only getting faster, it's only getting more robust. And yet we are still human and we are when we are born. We are born to connect. We are wired to connect. We are not wired to be lonely and our best friend be a machine. And the machine does not have emotional intelligence. The machine does not have reasoning to the ability that we do. It gives, you know, examples, gives you things to think about. What I think is amazing with AI technology are prompts. So I'll give an example. As an executive coach, I am asked often, is AI going to replace me? And I'm like, no, it's not. And here's why. I think AI needs to work with me, and I need to work with AI. And so recently I used myself as a guinea pig. I was on a trip in Costa Rica, and I had this question in my head, and I was like, I was just like, kept asking this question. And I'm like, well, I'm not able to talk to my coach right now. I'm not able to talk to my therapist right now. So let me pull out ChatGPT in my pocket. And so I asked, I gave it a persona of an executive coach with a specific persona and sent it out. And it came up with this framework. And I said, great, coach me through the framework. So it asked me these questions and it gave me all these prompts. And I just kept responding to the question. Tell me what you're hearing and say. And it came back and told me some things that were pretty profound. But what was even more profound was it didn't help me solve it. It got me thinking about it and almost feeling like heard in some cases. But then also it gave me something to when I did get with my coach and I did get my therapist to unpack it with a human. And so it was cool to experience that myself to the point where I'm like, there is benefits to both. And so the machine is going to be able to help us do so many things, but we're not ever going to connect to a machine like we can to another human being. And a machine cannot give you a hug. A machine cannot pat you on the back. A machine cannot fist pump you. Like I said, pump. That would be like this fist bump you. And so those are the things that I think it's really important that we don't just brush off. That these these are meaningful things that it's both. There's there's there's room and necessity for both. The human and the machine.

SPEAKER_01 21:21

So I actually chat bought GPT'd the other day and asked it what it thought of me based on my pre previous queries, what it thought of me. And it said that I was a very curious person. Yep. Which makes sense for a podcaster who's asking questions. So I thought that was interesting. No, I love your point of view of it, it helping us and us helping it and keeping it very human centered and focused. As we look at the future of work and you're navigating with these organizations and these high caliber individuals, is there skills that you're seeing if you were to forecast the skills that are going to be needed in the next decade or two?

SPEAKER_02 22:00

the top three skills that you think need to be the future of work listening asking questions versus telling and uh keeping uh energy as a focus across the organization and when i say energy not low energy energy that's strategic it's about making sure your key is showing up whether physically ready to go emotionally ready to go mentally ready to go spiritually and spiritually is purpose not faith case and when we are listening to what our people are saying not hearing hearing is different hearing is like the air conditioning in the background listening is you ask me a question I hear you so I'm willing to respond to it right I don't know that executives listen enough some do some are brilliant at it those are great executives others it's again back to the grind network the grind culture that we talked about at the very beginning of of this uh session it's just get the work done get the work done get the work done it's like are you even listening to what I'm telling you even are you even asking questions of me are you just making assumptions and are you reading the room I kept over here dying because the life is getting sucked out of me my energy is low. So I think those three things and notice none of that had to do with strategy process systems uh accounting any of that stuff it's all still the human focus and when we focus on the human for a minute the ripple effect can be phenomenal when we don't focus on the human for a minute the ripple effect can be phenomenal. So it's which ripple effect do you want? What outcome are you wanting?

SPEAKER_01 23:52

So that's that's I just had a matrix moment are we taking the blue pill or the red pill? That's who yes that's a great one. Well I don't think it's every day that we get an executive coach on the line.

SPEAKER_02 24:03

So uh as we're talking about the future of work individual and organization are there if someone was in a situation where they're job hugging or they've lost their purpose and their hope how do they go about finding a coach so there's lots of we we talked about there's therapist there's lots of different coaches how does one identify I need a coach and how do they identify the type of coach that they need so before I answer that question I want to answer I want to I want to address you how you said therapist okay because oh go for it yeah because therapist coach mentor all very different and I think it's great if someone has all three but they all serve different purposes a coach is someone who is going to hold you accountable for taking action and again in my case I as I said I'm a I'm a I'm a tough love coach so my my goal is to earn your trust so you know you can come here and say absolutely anything if you say you're gonna hurt yourself or somebody else I will have to report that. Other than that, anything you say stays here and the more you open up the more I can very gently hold up the mirror of this is what you said and that's okay. Tell me more about that. Let's unpack that. So for anyone who is wanting to work with the coach I'm not a huge fan of things that sound good. We say things all day long that sound really great. I'm more like what is what is the true willingness? There's ability and there's willingness we could teach ability all day long but willingness is from within so someone's got to have the willingness to do it got to be serious enough to want to do it. They know why they want to do it. And when they understand that then it's finding a coach. There are all kinds of organizations I mean you can go to Gallup and find a strings coach if you're wanting a strength-based coach. You can go to like Up Coach is another one and there's all kinds of coaching organizations where you can get a coach you can Google it you can you know get asked people chances are someone's gonna know you can go on LinkedIn and type in executive coach and a bunch of us will probably pop up. So there's a lot of different ways that someone can find a coach and it's also the what you said the type of coach. So when I started out 10 years ago I was a career coach. Career is still my focus but it's not like hey we're gonna help you with your resume we're gonna look at your LinkedIn profile we're gonna help you with interview prep it's that's not what we're doing at Career Frame. Now it really is leadership elevation. So it is what is the willingness to do it? What are you wanting to get out of it? And then you can then figure out the type because that will also help you understand do I need a coach do I need a therapist. And again a mentor is someone who's done what you've already done and has showed you if you just follow the steps they took, they can mentor you and how you can get to where they got. So I just always like to define the differences because they are different. And there's a need for all three.

SPEAKER_01 27:10

No I love that you paused and held space for all three different coaches, mentors and therapists. And by the way I've had all so I don't have any same same great to have all of them it's great to have a support team in your pocket whether it's chatbot GPT or your actual coach mentor or a therapist. So there's all of that it has been such an immense pleasure getting to interview you and learn a little bit more about the world of executive coaching and what you're seeing in the future of work.

SPEAKER_02 27:40

Is there anything that we didn't cover that you'd like to share with the audience no I nothing that I'm like yes I had to know Christy and if you didn't bring it up I was going to bring it up. For those of you listening and watching the video yes that is that is my book. Thank you for bringing that up yeah so all in is my uh my book that came out in 22. It was written as a little bit of a healing journey for myself but also if I could impact someone's life for the better that was a huge win. But it really is about going all in on you insisting demanding unapologetically insisting and demanding a better life for yourself for personally and professionally. So yes it is written it is very raw and it's very vulnerable that it's defined you know quick quicker if someone interested in in hearing more about that. But no I think you've asked great questions. I I appreciate you asking the questions that you did and having the opportunity to to share my thoughts from my perspective with your audience. I think that we covered some great things and again I'll just leave with again energy is not where we're strategic. And the more we can really bring up how we are energetically at work I think we will start to see a strategic shift in that ripple effect of where we want our companies to go.

SPEAKER_01 28:57

So I put that name in there see I didn't night you did a great job. So I have one I have one final question that I want to ask and I'm gonna I'm going to uh preface it with Carrie has written more than one book and this is where I had an aha so she did write the for those of you that didn't can't see the all in a working mom's unapologetic quest for a juicy life I'm reading this backwards so I'm very proud of myself because I'm done you did well but you also wrote a very personal loving book about fans like and guys fans like airfan feeling fans not 14 fans yes can you share that story because it's such a beautiful story and I think it really shows your connection to human and your connection to purpose and like bringing everything together.

SPEAKER_02 29:44

Yes thank you thank you for that I found that one right here is just yeah grab it and I too can hold it up there it is it says fans are fantastic are fantastic yeah so my son Lucas is on the autism spectrum ADHD century processing got diagnosed at four he is now 14. The first things he said were dada mama that's a fan so he has loved fans ceiling fans since he was two months old just noticing him staring at the fan and would just always start and then as as early as he could point to him he would but this was just a way you know wanting to help like him read, connect I went out looking for books about fans and there are a couple but I I didn't really find like an illustrated children's book. And so I was like well I'll just write one. So I did so I just wrote this fun cute little jingle um found an illustrator and we turned it into this book and he loves it and I absolutely I mean I don't even know how to describe I have moms reach out to me on Facebook wanting to connect like ones I don't know. I'm just like they've been they've gotten the book it's their child loves it and it's usually someone who has neither hasn't discovered or has not admitted that their child is special. This is not a book written for special kids but it is a unique book about fans. And so kids that are on the autism spectrum usually have their thing their one thing or three things that they love and they are uber focused on and in my journey with my son I've realized that there's actually quite a few fan fans out there. So yeah so it was just a way of just helping him connect with a unique focus and celebrate it and lean in and so yeah we notice fans everywhere now we see them everywhere.

SPEAKER_01 31:40

But thank you for for mentioning that no I I um thank you for allowing me to mention that because I think it shows the type of human you are and that you're purpose driven and that you really want to impact everybody and it starts in your home. And so in an and I know that you feel very passionate about your your client base having you know personal kind of regulation happiness home happiness and obviously out in their world. Again Carrie thank you so much for bringing your heart and your expertise to this call and until next time guys keep shifting. Thank you for listening I'm your host Christy Honeycutt be sure to subscribe to Strategic Shift so you never miss an episode. Tune in next time as we continue to explore innovation in the future of work. Until then keep shifting