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57 Imposter Syndrome Is a Fallacy: Dr. Nicole Pulliam on Equity in Leadership

• Rebecca Hamm • Season 1 • Episode 57

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Imposter Syndrome Is a Fallacy: Dr. Nicole Pulliam on Equity in Leadership | Joyfully Unstoppable

Host Becky Hamm welcomes Dr. Nicole Pulliam, tenured professor, TEDx speaker, executive coach, and founder of Real and Worthy LLC, to discuss her counter-narrative that women’s leadership self-doubt isn’t a personal flaw but a product of systems not designed for them. Dr. Pulliam explains why the term “imposter syndrome” is problematic, tracing it back to the original “imposter phenomenon” research and highlighting “imposterization,” which focuses on how institutional cultures, policies, and practices create imposter feelings. She connects this to equity-centered leadership, arguing equity is foundational to healthy, high-performing organizations. Dr. Pulliam offers practical ways to engage equity conversations by asking who was included in decisions and what may be missing, and emphasizes facing hard truths as the only path to sustainable wellness and joy.

00:00 Welcome to the Podcast
00:36 Meet Dr. Nicole Pulliam
02:24 Imposter Syndrome Is a Fallacy
12:29 Systems and Accountability
15:26 Equity Trends and Backlash
20:29 Asking Better Equity Questions
24:57 Equity Is Good Leadership
27:46 Equity Drives Outcomes
33:44 Final Takeaway and Where to Find Dr. Pulliam
35:55 Closing and Subscribe

Connect with Dr. Nicole Pulliam on LinkedIn 
Learn more about Real & Worthy, LLC 

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Rebecca Hamm

Welcome to Joyfully Unstoppable, the podcast for women who are ready to succeed without the stress. Whether you're leading a team, a classroom, a boardroom, or your own big, beautiful life, I am so glad you found us. I'm your host, Becky Hamm, executive coach, speaker, and founder of Women Lead Well. me each week for straight talk, practical tips, and a dash of encouragement. Hello, friend. I hope you are having a great day. Today, am, and I am so excited to welcome Dr. Nicole Pulliam on the podcast. Dr. Pulliam is a tenured graduate level professor, a TEDx speaker, an executive coach, and the founder and CEO of Real and Worthy LLC. With more than 20 years in higher education, spanning student affairs, academic affairs, and institutional leadership, she is a sought-after strategic partner for mid to senior level leaders, faculty, and institutions who are ready to do the real work. approach is identity affirming, strength-based, and grounded in one belief: equity isn't an initiative, it's the foundation of effective, sustainable leadership. Pulliam, thank you so much for coming on the Joyfully Unstoppable podcast.

Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.

Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here with you, and before we started recording, we just mentioned we just met, what, this past February at,

Rebecca Hamm

That's

Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.

a conference in DC where I had a chan- chance to participate in your workshop. And lo and behold, I'm also a coach, and th- this is how these things go. We build community. So I'm so happy to be here with you, um, and to talk to your audience today

Rebecca Hamm

Yeah. Well, Nicole, I tell you, your workshop in February was phenomenal. I got so much value out of it, and I knew I wanted you to talk, uh, to my audience, but timing is everything, and I know you are a busy woman with a lot of leadership responsibilities. I don't know about you, summer has not calmed down for me much, but I'm so grateful that you've made the time today for us to talk. And- Thank you I wanna just get into it. Let's just jump in the deep end of the pool. You say that your work is built on a counter-narrative, that the self-doubt that women feel in leadership isn't a character flaw. what happens when you lead in a system that was never designed with women in mind. Can you tell the listeners what you mean by that? How, how does the system prompt self-doubt?

Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.

Yes. So I love that this is the first question because, you know, when I look back on my twenty-plus career in higher ed, um, you know, on, again, the student affairs side, the academic affairs side, my coaching role, and all of the roles, and just sort of navigating life as a woman, but also, and I'll get into, you know, for me, navigating the world and my career as a woman of color, um, what I've learned over the years is that this whole idea that we call imposter syndrome, and I'm putting that in quotes for a reason, is actually a fallacy.

Rebecca Hamm

Hmm.

Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.

because the idea of imposter syndrome, and if we really pick that apart, the problem with that narrative is that there is something that is wrong with us, right? We start to look within ourselves because the feelings that exist when women say, "I feel like an imposter, I'm experiencing imposter syndrome," those feelings are real. However, where the imposter syndrome narrative, the dominant narrative currently, especially for women, and then you add other racial and ethnic identities onto that, is that no one is talking about the ways that the systems in which we're operating are actually perpetuating or adding or, in many ways, at fault for the very feelings that we are feeling. So oftentimes, the dominant narrative is, you know, "Let me go take another workshop," or, "Let me..." Now, I'm not saying don't go and work with a coach, 'cause coaching is important, but maybe I need this or maybe I need that. And what I've found over the years, both from experiencing it myself, but specifically starting to dig into the research, right now I'm looking at my calendar, over the past six years, twenty-twenty... Twenty-nineteen, actually, I started to dig into this whole imposter syndrome research because the more conferences I attended and the more women I spoke with and mentored, and as I was navigating my own life, I'm like, "Let me-- let's dig into this. Like, what is actually happening?" Fast-forward, I wind up- Um, getting a grant to do this really cool study in twenty nineteen, twenty twenty. What else was going on in twenty nineteen, twenty twenty? The pandemic. I also had my second baby, so there was a whole lot going on. But I got my hands on all of the literature that was rooted or sort of, um, had anything to do with imposter syndrome. And what I found was that imposter syndrome was actually... that term was actually, um, not syndrome when it was first formed. It was based on the work of two psychologists back in the late eighties, Dr. Pauline Clance and Dr. Suzanne Imes, who did this really cool study with women, sort of middle-aged, sort of mid-level professional women. Um, and they called it the imposter phenomenon, meaning something's going on with these high-achieving women that no matter how many degrees and how many accolades and how many awards, they still felt like they weren't enough. They still, you know, attributed success to lots of other people. So I did some research, but I had a-- this really cool opportunity to speak with Dr. Pauline Clance, um, because I, I needed her permission to use this imposter phenomenon scale for my study. I had no idea how to reach her, but it said in order to use this scale, you have to get permission. So she took my phone call. Um, she was lovely. Um, she was, you know, uh, older, I believe, you know, seventies, eighties. And first of all, she said, "Thank you so much for, for using my scale." My study was also looking at the imposter phenomenon with first-generation, Black and Latinx students, and I'll say a little bit more about that because all of my work primarily is focused on, um, the first gen and sort of looking at race and ethnicity. So she said thank you because her original-- their original research did not account for race or ethnicity. They only accounted for gender But the most important thing she said, which leads me to the counter-narrative work that I've been doing, is she said, "When you write this up in whatever journals you're going to seek publication in, please do not call it imposter syndrome, because we never called it that, and that term is problematic because it places the blame on us." And there was something about that statement coming from the original researcher that really just lit a fire in me to start doing work and workshops and research and centering my coaching years later on shifting that narrative and moving away from the, the, the problem was us, right? What that means for higher ed or any organization is that we're looking at this at the systems level. We're actually looking at... Now there's some new body of research, um, that looks at imposterization, not imposter syndrome. Imposterization is about taking a look at the systems, the people that make up the systems, um, and how the policies, the practices, the cultures that are built within institutions, and not just within higher ed, but all institutions, and how the cultures, the pract- all of that lead to feelings of imposterization or imposter feelings. So it's sort of, I like to call it, and the title of my TED Talk was actually Remixing The Narrative, right? We're flipping the script. So we're still talking about it, but we're reversing the way we're looking at it. So the counter-narrative is we're not imposters. Women, women of color, we are not imposters, which actually led to me naming my company that I built three years ago, Real and Worthy, real being we're not imposters. We are real, and we are worthy of everything we've achieved, everything we've earned. Um, so my research and my work has shifted significantly over the past six years because of this work, because the, the, the, the more I dig into this, the more problematic I see that that sort of term is. So the, the dominant narrative is something's wrong with us. Women are struggling, and yeah, we are struggling. However, where we stop is why,

Rebecca Hamm

Yeah. I

Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.

And it-

Rebecca Hamm

this is so important

Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.

Yeah

Rebecca Hamm

and I've seen this in the clients that I've coached,

Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.

Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Hamm

there is this assumption that something is wrong with me.

Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.

Yep

Rebecca Hamm

if I can be frank, the, the marketing that is out there in support of women, either in leadership roles or just in general, it is that pain-point marketing and focus on what's wrong and what's broken, and you the entrepreneur brings a solution to the problem, or you're gonna fix what's

Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.

Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Hamm

And, y- you know, I'm new to the entrepreneur world, and so I'm not gonna say I never marketed in that way because I didn't, that's what people told

Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.

But we're sold

Rebecca Hamm

was f- I was figuring it out, and I, it just gives me the ick. And so I have tried to really change the way that I approach my conversations with women over the past several months, because there ain't nothing wrong. You ain't broken. Nothing is wrong. We all have those negative thoughts. We all

Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.

Yeah

Rebecca Hamm

rooms wondering and feeling like maybe we aren't good enough or we don't belong, and you have given such a thoughtful contextualization of where those thoughts are actually coming from, that it is not anything is wrong with any one woman, that she can't hack it or she's not good enough,

Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.

Yes

Rebecca Hamm

that the systems in place in the organization and the patterns in place in different organizations create expectations that just don't fit. It's a square peg, round hole situation is what I'm hearing. Is that, is that a fair way to say it?

Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.

Yes. In, in some ways, you know, the, the, the, the last thing that I'll say about this in terms of the counter-narrative is, you know, I can't speak for all industries, right? Like my background, and I know your background, we have a shared background in higher education, and higher education is its own system.

Rebecca Hamm

Mm-hmm.

Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.

any system, um, and again, we'll just take a look at higher education, is simply a microcosm of our society, you know, of, of, of our, the history of our country, right? So, you know, we oftentimes in education think that educational spaces are, um, don't necessarily have the same issues that are going on in the rest of the world, like all of the isms, right? All of them. Um, and that is just not true. It is a microcosm of our society. You know? So when I think about the, um, counter-narrative, there's really two ways to think about this, and I think, you know, you would appreciate this having been in senior level roles, um, in higher ed, and now being a coach and consultant too, is that the coaching piece is really about, you know, how do we help our clients feel... Like, for me, I'm always like, how do I help my clients feel and believe that they, that regardless of what's going on within the system, that they still and will always have power and agency over their lives, right? So that's the coaching component. It's we're not ignoring the systems that they're operating within, but ultimately it comes down to self as well, right? Because we can't coach and say, "You're not the problem, the system is." What do we do with that then, right? So it is about strategy. However, the other piece to this and, you know, the other work that I do working with organizations and the messaging that I try to get across in my writing is that there needs to be conversations about accountability for institutions, for folks who hold positional power, um, because that's just the reality of it, right? So if you want, and I know we'll get into this next, if you want an organization that is truly operating well, right, then these are things that have to be addressed. We can't work on problems if we fail to acknowledge the context, right? Yeah. So that's, that's the other part of the counter-narrative. So it's the we are not imposters, but also, you know, let's look at the systems and, and we have to be willing to look at them in order to move forward and make sure that our organizations are well.

Rebecca Hamm

And

Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.

Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Hamm

let's, let's have that chat This, uh, as I am understanding this, this is in the context of equity-centered leadership,

Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.

Yep.

Rebecca Hamm

is

Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.

Yep

Rebecca Hamm

an important part of building healthy systems, and we have spoken so far about, um, the gender

Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.

Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Hamm

We've talked

Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.

Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Hamm

this in June. It's LGBTQ plus month. Um, there is also the gender identity slice or the, the sexual orientation slice. And so as someone who has dedicated real time to studying these trends, talk to us, what are you seeing? What are the trends out there? And, um, for listeners who maybe have been seeing a whole lot of negative trends lately, is there any light at the end of the tunnel? Are there any bright spots that you can highlight for us?

Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.

I would say... So the, the optimist in... I'm a realist and I'm an optimist. The optimist in me says, yes, there, there will always be bright spots. Um, however, we- it probably doesn't feel that way right now for a lot of people. Maybe not everyone, but for a lot of people, particularly like the clients who I tend to work with, they're not feeling like there's a bright spot. However, and again, I'm... I think this is across industry, but I will continue to give examples within higher ed, is that, you know, we, we saw what happened around 2020 after the murdering of George Floyd and the pandemic, and everyone was home paying attention to things that always existed, but they were now at the forefront. And we saw a trend in many industries, but again, specifically looking at higher ed, where it appeared as if higher ed was finally willing to have some difficult conversations about inequity, about, you know, as it relates to race, a- again, at that point, but really all identities, and really taking a hard look to s- to ask themselves, ask ourselves, "Are we doing our students, our faculty, our staff, our administrators well? Are we practicing?" So we saw Lots of diversity statements being created and plastered all over websites, and we saw divisions and departments and people hired into these equity, diversity, whatever you wanna call it, roles, many of which tended to be people of color. Um, we saw all of these things happening, right? So th- that was the trend. And as with any trend, um, that is directly impacted by what's happening in our society and in our country, we saw the pendulum s- shift all the way this way, and now six years later, the pendulum has shifted completely opposite. So what we're seeing now is everything that was done in 2020, in many ways, being dismantled.

Rebecca Hamm

Mm-hmm.

Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.

Um, positions no longer, departments no longer, wording that was once on websites completely vanished. Um, and then, and, you know, given the political climate in many ways, especially for state institutions where federal aid is sort of dangled, many institutions and those in senior leadership roles feeling forced to make these decisions Some made them quite easily, which was a, is a whole nother conversation. But we now see that happening. So what that tells me us- you know, from an equity-focused lens is that, um, or it makes me question, did that work really matter? Because in some ways, if it's so easy to undo was that really the work or was it a performative measure? And, and again, I think that varies by institution, right? But I think that's the trend that we see happening right now and unfortunately, you know, equity has been equated to or has been, you know, I, I guess I'll say equated to what's going on in our political climate where really if I had it my way and if we think about the topic that we're discussing, equity centered leadership, to me it's just leadership. To me, it's just the foundation of a good leader. It's the foundation or should be the foundation of a strong organization. Because at the heart of equity, what we're really saying is does... Have we taken measures, have we been intentional, and have we asked ourselves, is everyone that is part of this organization from, again, higher ed students all the way on up and senior level admins all the way to, you know, do they have what they need? Have they been set up to truly succeed, really, truly? Have they been set up? Because most of the time we're not taking those things into account. We're assuming that the measures, the policies, the cultures that we've created are great and that they will be great for everyone.

Rebecca Hamm

Mm-hmm.

Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.

So, you know, an, an equity-minded person would say, "These are great, but are we missing something Are these great for everyone?" Right? So, or are they just great, but who's the dominant narrative here?

Rebecca Hamm

And so help a listener, somebody who is listening today and they're saying, "Wow, I've never thought of it like that before."

Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.

Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Hamm

perhaps they're somebody who has benefited from the dominant narrative

Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.

womenleadwell.net

Rebecca Hamm

hasn't been, um, harmed to the extent that they've become aware of that harm.

Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.

Yeah

Rebecca Hamm

listeners be thinking about in terms of equity as it relates to organizational health? What sorts of questions should they be asking? And particularly in light of what you'd said, that in the US today, this is a really touchy subject, and a lot of organizations will not entertain the conversation because of fear of losing federal dollars.

Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.

Yes

Rebecca Hamm

Do you have any tips for to engage in these conversations without doors slamming in your face or, um, or stepping into a, a conversation that, that some of the listeners of this podcast maybe don't have the power and influence to really be involved in?

Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.

Yeah.

Rebecca Hamm

understand?

Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.

You know, I, I think, you know, at the simplest level, here's what I would say, and that is, you know, I think the question should always be, you know, again, there's tons of examples, but I'm just thinking of, you know, I'm on the academic affairs side right now, so, you know, as you understand, lots of meetings with deans and provosts and, you know, all of those conversations, you know. And I think a way to approach the conversation simply is to ask the question of, you know, well, first of all, like, who, who was part of these conversations, right? Like, who was included as part of whatever, let's say it's a decision that was made. Who was included, right? That's number one. Um, because it- rather than saying, "Who did you not include," right? That's sort of a who did you exclude? The question is who did you include, right? And I think that's a fair question because that happens to any of... We all have blind spots. We all have implicit biases where we're operating within our own, you know, lens, and we're busy, and we're bu- you know, so we're gonna miss some things, right? So it is to an organization's benefit to include a varied set of voices, and not just for the purpose of, um, inviting someone simply because of an identity that they represent.

Rebecca Hamm

Yeah

Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.

correct. But that you truly invite them to be part of the conversations. And sometimes the question is, "Here's what we've come up with. What are we missing?" Right? Are we missing something? And that's the fair question, where it's a, it's not necessarily a defensive question, but it's a, it's about, you know, fairness. Now, as a parent, I don't like when my kids say, "That's not fair," because my natural instinct is to say, "Life is not fair." That's true, right? But when we're talking about equity, really what we're talking about is fairness. Was everyone considered? Can you take measures to ensure that what benefits some doesn't exclude other, right? There has to be some conversations there. Um, so I think the fair question is, you know, can you talk a little bit about, you know, who was part of this decision-making process, right? So sort of simple questions like that. And I think there's a s- there's a way to do that because if you say, or if I say you know, "Well, did you have any people of color on that committee?" The defense automatically goes up. And also, if the question is yes, that doesn't mean that it was still an equitable practice, right? But I think if we simply focus on equity as meaning Was everyone or as many people considered? Now, it doesn't mean that we can create this utopia where everyone will be, you know... But we have to sort of take a hard look at it, right? So I think we often overthink equity because media and society has done such a good job of making us fear the conversation,

Rebecca Hamm

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.

we rather, we just, we don't say anything at all, even if we're sensing like, "Hmm, that's really interesting," right? And I'm, I'm gonna give a really, really quick example because I think this probably oversimplifies, but some folks might get it. Um, my, part of my, what I'm calling my midlife, uh, play practice, uh, joy and creativity is, especially now, spring and summer, I like to garden. I like to plant. I've been working on my green thumb over the years. And I think about, you know, first of all, learning my environment outside, down to the sides of the house, which are full sun, which are partial sun, right? So if, if anyone knows anything about plants, the very first thing that you need to consider is how much sun do they need, or do they not like much sun at all, right? Because when I'm considering what plants to plant, I have to consider the conditions, right? The conditions. I can't just say that flower or that plant is beautiful, or I want some more color in my yard, and I'm just gonna pick Right? I have to consider the conditions because if that plant doesn't thrive, what that means is there's a variety of reasons, but if I neglected to even consider what that particular plant needed, the sun, the amount of water, the, the way you have to plant it, then that means I haven't done my due dili- diligence. I haven't necessarily practiced equitably as it relates to my gardening, right? Because I'm not even thinking about it. I'm like, "This is a great..." You know, I got some new mulch, which I just did. I got, you know, really great place to plant, but not for every plant. There are some things that I wanna plant that just will not thrive no matter what, or there are different things that I can do to ensure that this one plant thrives, and the other one I can kinda... It's good. Like, the conditions are already set up to support it, right? And I'm always thinking about equity, so as I'm gardening, of course, I'm thinking about it. But I read something and I... You know, like, we don't blame the plant, right? W- we have to look at the conditions. We have to look at how we treated it. And, and I think in many ways, that's what we're talking about, right? Like, that's what we're talking about, right? So in gardening, you're like, well, you're not, you know, equity centered guard- you're just gardening. Like, that's smart gardening. To me, that's smart leadership, right? It ensures that folks feel seen and connected and heard, and ultimately, people will do better at their roles because they feel like, and they've been set up to succeed

Rebecca Hamm

Well, and so let me ask about this, because when you had said that fundamentally equity was about fairness, my initial thought was, well, I don't, didn't think about equity that way. I think equity is about outcomes and performance.

Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.

Mm-hmm

Rebecca Hamm

and this could be a personal, you know, everyone has different beliefs, but, but the data is pretty compelling that equity, that diver- diversity specifically has been really well studied, but I would assume equity would feed into this,

Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.

Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Hamm

that the more equitable an organization, the better performing the individuals in the organization will be for

Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.

Yes. Yeah

Rebecca Hamm

host of reasons related to actual ability to do their job without friction and roadblocks,

Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.

Yes

Rebecca Hamm

the, the fulfillment that comes from knowing that you're being supported and the impact that has on morale and motivation and output and work ethic.

Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.

Yep

Rebecca Hamm

and when you talk about the garden, I hear the same thing. Certain plants thrive under certain conditions, and they falter under others.

Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.

Yes

Rebecca Hamm

So tar- and maybe, maybe the answer is, well, it's both. It can be about fairness, and

Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.

Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Hamm

be about performance. But

Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.

Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Hamm

see those two in relationship? Is it worth pulling them apart? Do we just say that,

Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.

No, I think they're directly related. I think the outcomes... Now again, the, when, when you're thinking as a, um, as an administrator and, you know, like that's, that's where we go, and that's the way that we have to approach this work 'cause there's, it's, it's, it's really both, right? So as it relates to outcomes, yes. I mean, for an organization, if you have done your due diligence and continue to do your due diligence, then you will absolutely have better outcomes, right? People will be more likely to stay They will be better at their roles. They will produ- right? So it's, I have, um, I have a book coming out on this very topic, and one of my authors, um, wrote about and has done research specifically for senior women, senior leaders. Um, her work is looking at Black women in senior leadership roles. She's at the chief of staff level, and she talks about this sort of, um, audit, if you will, that she believes organizations should use to ensure that even before someone is hired into a role, that you are auditing your organization. And she came up with different, you know, sort of checkpoints to ensure that even before someone is hired, they are set up to succeed internally, but ultimately to produce the outcomes that you hired them to produce, and to produce them well, right? So it's not... The diversity piece has really been about, and we saw this happen in 2020 as well, um, lots of folks being hired or, you know, let's, let's put a person of color, you know. Like, we lack diversity, so let's hire more Black and Brown folks But what was happening and still happening is you can hire, that's the diversity, but the equity is have you done your due diligence to ensure that those fo- and really everyone. 'Cause when I talk about equity, I'm talking about everyone, not just people of color, right? It's for the overall health and wellness for the entire organization. But ultimately, there's enough data out there to show you will absolutely get better, better outcomes if this is the way that you continue to practice. So she talks about, her name is Dr. Kyra Lobins, she talks about it as like equity-centered leadership is a fiduciary responsibility. And I'm like, "I love that." It is a fiduciary responsibility because what happens? People leaving roles, now you have to refill it, right? Like, there's money attached to

Rebecca Hamm

Mm-hmm

Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.

all of these inequitable practices, and this is the way we need to, to talk about the work to administrators, right, to board members. And you know, like the counselor in me, you know, also talks about, yeah, but... 'Cause people can produce... Here's the other, the last thing I'll say. The outcomes can still be produced, so on paper it looks as if that person is thriving. But if you talk to them, they will tell you a completely different story. So for a lot of us, and you might have your own stories of like, "Well, yeah, I was, I was kicking butt in my role, however," fill in the blank, right? Like, so that's where the coaching component comes in as well because same thing with students. Like, when I was doing student research, my students were, you know, 3.5 and above GPAs, you would think. And to the university, they retained them, they graduated them. So on paper, it looked, and these were, you know, Black and Latinx students, first gen. On paper, one would say that those students were thriving because the grades told one story. The qualitative researcher in me knows that's not the full story, right? So yes, I think it depends who you're talking to. Unfortunately, and I hate this, but this is true, when you're talking about making budgetary decisions and you have to focus on the outcomes and the fiduciary responsibility first, we can't just go in and say, "Yeah, but this person doesn't feel like they belong." That's not gonna fly. It's true, but we have to reframe that, right? Like, so you, you kinda learn to, to say the same thing, but in a different way. Um, but yes, it's both. Absolutely

Rebecca Hamm

Yeah. Thank you. So Nicole, what is one message that you wanna leave with listeners today?

Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.

Just one. Um, I think it would be we cannot ensure The health and wellness of our organizations, or we cannot... I'm also thinking about, like, even the title of your podcast, which I love Joyfully Unstoppable, right? Like, we can't ensure anything, joy, wellness, health, personally or if we're looking at institutions, unless we are willing to look at the hard truths. We have to look at the hard truths. We cannot move forward. We-- 'cause otherwise that's just putting a Band-Aid on it. If we're willing to do the real work, whether that's personally for ourselves or whether that's, you know, as an institution, we have to be willing to look at the truth. That's the only way forward. Um, you know, it's like you have to get through the good, bad, and the ugly before the work begins.

Rebecca Hamm

Mm-hmm.

Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.

I truly believe that from a personal, professional, and institutional level

Rebecca Hamm

Yeah, I think that is so important. And we can not wanna look at that for a whole host of reasons,

Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.

Oh, it's easy to not look at it. Eh, I'll look at it later. Oh, I'll go here. I'll do this.

Rebecca Hamm

Yeah.

Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.

Yeah

Rebecca Hamm

So if someone would like to learn more about Real and Worthy or maybe work with you directly, how can they find you?

Nicole Pulliam, Ph.D.

Yeah. Um, so I'm very active on LinkedIn. You can just find me there, Nicole Pulliam, PhD. Um, my website is my full name, nicolepulliam.com. um, my website is in the process of being revamped, but it is still very active right now. Um, I am active on Instagram, but I tend to do the most work on LinkedIn Um, so they can find me on either LinkedIn or my website

Rebecca Hamm

Great. Well, thank you, Dr. Pulliam, so much for coming on the Joyfully Unstoppable podcast. I have learned a ton today, and I know that the listeners have as well. Now, if today's episode spoke to you, I would love for you to share it with a friend. We need more women leading from alignment, not adrenaline. And if you haven't already, please make sure to like and subscribe so you don't miss next week's drop. Remember, joyful, sustainable, and authentic leadership is possible, and you deserve to enjoy every minute of it. Until next time, this is Becky Hamm, and this is Joyfully Unstoppable.