Church & College Students
Conversations to strengthen you and your church with the tools and confidence to love, reach and disciple college students. Brought to you by Fusion USA and friends.
Church & College Students
Help! My students are overwhelmed and burnt out, what do I do?- with Katy & Kendall McKee
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As finals, deadlines and end of year events get closer on the horizon, so can feelings of overwhelm and anxiety for our college students. We've called in seasoned college pastors Katy and Kendall McKee to explore how to lead our students through these seasons with more health and resilience. April really starts to intensify for our students so we hope this episode hits ahead of that time!
The team also share hard won lessons around boundaries, burn out, and setting a different culture in our churches and discipleship in order to all live and set an example that speaks of good news.
To follow along with the McKee's college student mission work you can find them here:
First Alliance Church College Ministry
Hosting conversations to strengthen you and your local church with the tools and confidence to love, reach and disciple college students.
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You're listening to the Church and College Student Podcast brought to you by Fusion USA and our friends.
SPEAKER_01Conversations to strengthen you and your church with the tools and confidence to love, reach, and disciple college students.
SPEAKER_03Well, hello, everybody. Welcome back to the Church and College Student Podcast. I am Brandon Shook, and once again, I'm here with my pal Miriam Swanson.
SPEAKER_01It's good to have you all back. And uh we're excited about this episode. We've already recorded it, and so you are about to hear a brilliant conversation from two seasoned college student mission practitioners because we're about to hit exam season, end of the semester, and finals time. And so today we're talking about help. Your college students are overwhelmed and burnt out. What do you do about it? So it's been a good conversation, hasn't it, Shook?
SPEAKER_03Oh, it was wonderful. And it brings back like great things about boundary setting, but also some hard lessons learned.
SPEAKER_01Totally. I mean, as a college student, I pretty much burnt out trying to see all my friends come to know Jesus. And so I had to kill the Messiah complex in me. That was my issue as a very keen evangelistic kind of college student. But you'll hear in our conversation boundaries around season changes and life stage changes and how we as leaders need to model a different way than striving and overworking. And also, I think some of the things that encouraged me towards the end of the conversation is when Kendall and Katie both gave examples of students that have done a really good job at learning boundaries in such a way that they didn't burn out in their pressure point seasons. And so I think you'll be excited by some of the stories that come up in this podcast around that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, really good lessons. Uh, but in the end, once again, I mean, that there is hope. I mean, even in just the learning of through, you know, the hard facts of life and setting boundaries, um, lack of it being modeled well. But yeah, Miriam, you're right. I mean, that me too, for the the stories of students that have already set better boundaries than any of the four of us ever have.
SPEAKER_01So uh without further ado, we'll give you the main event. So listen in to our conversation with Katie and Kendall, and we hope you enjoy it.
SPEAKER_03Welcome, our friends, Katie and Kendall McKee. They are up in Lexington, Kentucky. They are, as you've guessed, married, husband and wife, and they work in two different types of college ministry. Katie and Kendall, welcome. We're so excited to have you. Would you guys tell us something about yourselves that you would want the audience to know? And let's let Katie go first.
SPEAKER_00Awesome. Thanks, Shook. Excited to be here. Uh something I want the audience to know. I guess I'll just go off of what you said. Uh, we have been working in college ministry for about 10 plus years and love it. And um, I currently oversee the World Gospel Mission Student Center here on Asbury University's campus.
SPEAKER_02Awesome. Yeah, I think um to add to that, we've done college ministry for longer than 10 years, unfortunately, for uh Katie's timeline there. Um, but we do it in we do it in all sorts of different contexts. Uh my professional job is I'm a college pastor and residency coordinator at a local church in Lexington, Kentucky. And then we also live on campus at Asbury. Um, and so we do campus, we have campus ministry experience, we have local church experience, we have church planting experience, and then I've also done bivocational college ministry as well, where I'm working a full-time job and then discipling students on the side. So um we kind of have some experience in in all realms of that.
SPEAKER_01I mean, this is why this is why they're on the pod. And you might remember from season one, uh, Kendall joined us with Trey. Uh, I do recommend you go back and listen to that episode because that was a really fun example of somebody that Kendall discipled into following Jesus, now being a college pastor. So those two shared a bit of their story and a bit of Kendall's sort of college ministry experience as a student and recent grad. So we're now, I mean, I'm not going to say we're in your mature years, but uh as fellow, as fellow straight in the middle millennials. Um, we're now really leaning upon uh some of the expertise and wisdom that you've gained over a decade plus of pastoring students, particularly when it comes to actually um the more overtly pastoral needs, mental health crisis, exam stress, anxiety, overwhelm, burnout, some of the stuff that actually now you guys are in your mid-30s, your recent parents, you've seen a number of these seasons come and go. Shook and I really wanted to mime your wisdom as people that have worked in many contexts. And yet every year we hit the same kind of stuff with the emerging generation. And when this podcast is being released, just so listeners know, in the life cycle of a college student, you're listening to this at about the time that stress and overwhelm hits a peak. And so we're trying to talk about these moments as you're experiencing them, as it's happening, and to help your awareness with what college students are going through in these moments around Easter and exam season before the end of the semester. So we're super grateful to have you both and both of your voices and wisdom today.
SPEAKER_03Yes, thank you. Thanks for having us.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, excited to be here.
SPEAKER_03Um, Kindle, just to begin, what what and Katie, feel free to to join in on this question as well. But what are some of the biggest just drivers that you see in students beginning to feel overwhelmed or burnt out throughout a semester?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, your question of what's the biggest driver. I think um most of our students, um, most of the students that we're discipling these days in our current context are uh people that have already come to some sort of faith in Jesus. We we just in Katie and I's personal life currently, we don't have a whole lot of people that are at the tip of uh of a life with Jesus. They're kind of like in this couple years in stage. So I think the driver for them is really having this complex of wanting to serve the Lord, wanting to really be locked in with ministry, wanting to really do what's healthy and best. And then they also still have this ever-present battle with their flesh where they just want to, they want to hide. They want to, you know, they they they're battling fight or flight, they're wanting to get away from the stress environments of where they're at in their personal lives or in their school lives or even in their professional lives, they're making big decisions that feel super weighty and overwhelming. Our culture doesn't give them really a good amount of time to make these decisions. It's kind of like hurry up and wait. You know, they've done all these four years and all of a sudden they're supposed to know everything of what their life is supposed to be about. You know, and so I think the driver of what of what you're asking is a lot of times they're trying to battle who is the driver of what of my current season. Is it my emotions? Is it all this other stuff, all this culture, all this time management stuff, or is it in fact my disciplines and relationship with Jesus? Um, and so a lot of our students, we are having to encourage and to remind them who's in charge and who's the driver. And and and then honestly, that's still a conversation we have to remind ourselves of as well.
SPEAKER_03So yeah, that's good. Andy, what do you what do you have to add to that? What are some drivers that you see?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I would I definitely agree with everything Kendall said. Um, I think another thing that goes along with with that is um our flesh still like wanting control and wanting to know what's happening. And I really start to see students wrestle with that. Um, and the the things that I've seen that start to hint at, okay, they're getting burnt out, or okay, this is not good, is they start to doubt, um, which isn't bad, but they're asking the questions and they're beginning to doubt that doubt faith and what they believe in that sense. More of like doubt who they are, doubt why they're here, doubt that he's actually doing good things in their life. Um, another thing that I see happening is um they slowly start to to back away from responsibilities, from serving from things, and they go and hide or they're they freeze from being so overwhelmed. And so in those moments, that's when I'm like, okay, if I haven't seen this person in a couple weeks, maybe I need to check up on them because they're starting to back away, they don't want to serve, they want to hide. Um and a part of that is too, which I fell into this in college. You just you get involved in so many things. And then you're like, oh my gosh, how do I hold all of this at once? So, but I think the main things would be um they reach for control, um, they start to doubt, and then they they hide and pull back. Those are the key things that that I'm like I to keep an eye out for.
SPEAKER_01That's really helpful. That's some really tangible markers for pastors listening to think through. What are you noticing when someone's ghosting you? What else is going on in their wider context? Okay, well, so that you know, we've we've almost started at the end. We've started at the point of they're disappearing off the map, they're freaking out in their own identity, and then we're sort of losing grasp of how they're doing and where they are because they're not coming towards us. It's all superhuman and all traits that we can probably see in ourselves in different seasons. So let's swim upstream before they ever get to the point of I'm drowning, I'm drowning, I'm drowning. What are some of the things that are pushing our college students into the river of mental health crisis, burnout and overwhelm? And what are some ways that you, as pastors over the last decade, have learned we actually mitigate those circumstances as much as we can. We're not Jesus and we're also only control self, we don't control any of our students. But what healthy boundaries and practices and culture do you sow way upstream earlier so that by the time we're in exam season, by the time we're in crunch time moments like Christmas and Easter, you're not reaping loads of drowning students. You're actually reaping healthy choices, healthy communication. Like what have you guys learned as good practice over the years? And I'm sure it's with a failure and success is both welcome because I'm sure both you've learned the hard way and and some good ways along the way. We'd love to hear some stories.
SPEAKER_02I think it starts with a lot of encouragement in the beginning. Um so we I I really like to just gas up my students in the midst of trying to disciple them because uh I mean, a lot of times the discipleship process can feel so heavy because you're putting down so much of what feels like yourself. Uh I mean, like so much of our lives are are centered around what do you want? And all these media things are all pointing up, and then they're changing their framework to being like, what does God want? And that's where I was kind of going with like who's the driver of the scenario earlier. But at the same time, like that's a really conflicting place to be. And it's really like um uh uh mentally taxing for them. And so, like, if we are already coming down on them in the in the pre in the pre season, once it gets really difficult and hard, if they know your first reaction is going to be correction or your first reaction is going to be discipline or or something like that. I I mean that's I mean it's a good model of parenting too that I've seen. I'm I'm three months into parenting, so uh I'm not gonna be able to do it.
SPEAKER_01She's got a lot of boundaries.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we've got a lot of boundaries.
SPEAKER_01Mary's got an account discipline, you know. Do it in money well.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Praise God for Mary for sure. But uh what I'm saying is like starting with encouragement, I think, is not honestly what I always want to do. I like what I want to do is be is is show them and be correctional about like, dude, I really messed up when I did this when I was your age, you know, and like trying to give them the wisdom you already have. And they're not gonna listen to the wisdom if you if they don't know that they can trust you or that they don't know that they can, that you see more than just the bad parts of their lives. And so I think starting with encouragement way upstream gives you the ability to have that conversation. And I I think I also learned this the past couple of years is before just giving advice or giving correction, um, part of our job as being intercessors or having a prophetic voice into the into the discipleship scenario, is sometimes it's not ours to say. Sometimes we're interceding for our students with the Lord, and you're just praying that the Lord reveals to them before we reveal to them. And so um, I think that's a critical part that as pastors we miss is that as as as intercessors for our students, well, first we got to be praying for our students. But if we are praying for our students, then we also have to believe that they don't have a junior Holy Spirit, that there's like that the word can reveal to them and we're praying for them in terms of their uh what is God revealing to them? What is he convicting them on and trusting where God and the Holy Spirit is using the conviction in their lives? It might not be where we want to convict them, but if we're having conversations, yeah, if we're having conversations about that and we're asking questions like, how is your soul? or is there any uh sin that you would love to confess? Where are you hogging or hiding? Where you if we're asking those kind of questions and we are praying for the for the Holy Spirit to be in in a in a con like convicting them what what uh God wants to move forward in their lives in, I think that's going to be a good place to get put pull them out of the water if we've been encouraging them in the first place.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's that's so good, Kendall.
SPEAKER_01What do you think, Katie? What what practices have you cultivated that helps mental resilience later on in these overwhelm seasons?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I totally agree with Kendall that encouragement is a huge thing. I have like three um three Ps, which is stop it. Somebody stop these preachers. We are the worst.
SPEAKER_01No, if I don't hear a poem, if it doesn't rhyme, I'm I'm canceled to it.
SPEAKER_00It doesn't, I'm so sorry. But um the first one is presence, like just being present with them. And it doesn't have to look like I mean Kendall and I have a family now, like we don't have a bunch of time, but if we spend an hour a week with us, you know, a student, then that's that's good presence you have with them. Um praise similar to Kendall, like encouragement. If you just see the things that they're doing right and be like, wow, like that is huge. Do you realize what a big deal that is that you are reading scripture for five minutes a day? Like that's huge. Not everybody does that, you know, and just encourage the little, even if it's little. Um yeah, and like like Kendall said to gas them up. And then um the last one, as he also said is prayer. Um, you have to be praying for them. Uh and I think that's one of the the key things is um yeah, just prayer over their semester and their workload and what they're doing. I mean, I don't leave a discipleship meeting with one of my students without praying for them and asking them, How can I pray for you this week? Um and I think that is key. So yeah, presence, praise, and prayer. There you go.
SPEAKER_01What a professional she is.
SPEAKER_02Yes, absolutely. I don't think I've ever done that. I don't think I've ever done three Ps.
SPEAKER_01Do you know what, Ken's well? You married up. You married up, so you're learning all the time, and that's fine.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. Mary's got a great mom. That's all. That's all I'm gonna say.
SPEAKER_03Sweet, sweet, Mary. So and and I would say even coming coming back down, right, is what do you or how do we as a church, right? How do we help? You talked about, you know, before we get to the burnout stage, but how does how does the local church help to just model just healthy and sustainable ways um so that students can set up good boundaries so they don't feel maxed out? What is what do you think that looks like practically for the local church?
SPEAKER_01Have you ever seen it?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean that's a challenge to the Western Church.
SPEAKER_00It is huge.
SPEAKER_03It's huge.
SPEAKER_00I don't know if Kendall wanted to go first, but I don't.
SPEAKER_02We'll allow we'll allow Katie to go first.
SPEAKER_01And it you are allowed to you're allowed to share the stuff that has not worked, so even if you're not sure what would look good, you that's a big learning moment still. Yes, absolutely. This is unhealthy culture we've seen replicated in the lives of young people, you know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think my first thought that comes to mind when you ask that, Shook, is if you're not honest about how you're doing, that they they can see that off the bat.
SPEAKER_03Like you Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00You have to be authentic. So if you show up and act like everything's great and everything's not great with you, they know. They they can sniff it out. They absolutely know. And so, um, and it and that sometimes is like a you know, a stab to your ego a little bit. And like you're like, I'm supposed to be the leader, you know? And I've done that before. I showed up like I'm I'm good and I'm not, and they know. And so I think I've just learned over the years, um, not only me as a leader, but us at us as the church, we need to show up and be honest about where we're at because that that gives them permission to show up and be honest about where they're at.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, absolutely. I I think you're right, Katie. Just especially as a leader. I mean, that's one thing that I learned too. Instead of being like this stoic male that nothing ever affects me, where I really had some incredible breakthroughs with both male and female students was being able to share, like, yeah, I didn't have a great day today, you know, and and I didn't share like all the dirty details, but I might have been, you know, like, yeah, I I didn't do something well today. And, you know, I had to have a talk with my boss about it, you know, because then there's some sort of precedence too, like, oh, that happens to Shook, it could happen to me. Yeah, you know, like those sorts of things. So yeah, absolutely, Katie. That spot on, spot on.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, not not trying to create an atmosphere that we are uh like I talked about the junior Holy Spirit earlier, but then the flips, the flip side of that saying, like, like we have to believe that they don't have the the junior Holy Spirit and that they can feel like they can hear from God the same way we can, but also like reversing that and showing them that that we are in the same level. There's so many students that come to us and they're like, Man, can you pray for me about this? Because like you're just you seem to just be better at maybe the Lord's like likes you more, you know, and it's silly and it sounds silly for those of us that have been in ministry for a long time, but I think we have to remind ourselves that these students maybe aren't always been in the church for their entire lives. Yeah. Um, but this the question um is I think by also modeling for them healthy boundaries, you know, like sometimes good, Kendall. I think I also um I really struggle with this sometimes because there's this balance of wanting to be available for them 24-7. And I think earlier in college ministry, I was like, dude, anytime you have a problem, call. Anytime you need anything, text, show up at my house no matter what. You know, 11 p.m., like come on in, you know, we're all here. But then like as I get older, I'm like, I don't know if that's actually healthy. I don't think like, you know, like giving knowing that I'm always available to them in terms of my emotions and my prayer life and things like that is important. But I think they also need to know, like, there is, there it is, like, you know, relational and professional boundaries as well. And um, I don't know if this exactly fits the question, but it's just something that I, that it, that needs to be said, is create space for them to like in their grief or in their concern, because that's when they're really gonna, that's when they're reaching out most of the time, is when they're like everything's hitting the fan, and you know, like a balance of running to the phone before running to the throne, like all that stuff.
SPEAKER_01Oh, stop it. Absolutely stop it. There he is. That's I mean, there's a word.
SPEAKER_02That's a word. I got no peas. Yeah, I got no peas, but I do have the poem.
SPEAKER_00So uh whoa! We're the we're the full package together.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, come on, baby. Love it, yes. But on on a on a real note, though, like they're usually coming to you when they are at a loss of their own uh competencies. And so there's a savior complex there that we need to be careful of. You know, we need to be able to. Um, I I think early on I was realizing that the kids I or the guys that I was discipling specifically would just, they were just doing whatever I told them that they should probably do. And they were just like, cool, I'm just gonna. Do that. And then I started realizing, oh, I'm not helping them make their own decisions. And as soon as I'm removed from this scenario, they're gonna just not, they're not gonna be mature. They're just they're really just doing whatever I tell them to do. And it's like, okay, well, then how do we teach them how to be self-feeders? And I think some of that is is uh it it it takes a it takes a dance and it takes a complex of us having to really be smart in the way that we help them, but also not like save them from everything. But like, you know, so it's like it's a it's a dance that I think we have like we have to be b based in prayer and we have to know where the Lord is asking us to be a part of their healing season or a part of their structure, or also kind of letting them feel it a little bit too. So um, we can't save them from everything.
SPEAKER_01And you're so right to just acknowledge that season changes bring about your own awareness as a leader of what's actually appropriate capacity and boundary too. And there's there is a gift like some of the senior leaders listening to this, you're you maybe you want to have college student interns as your college pastors, straight out of university, no mortgage, no kids, uh, renting a house together or something, and then they can just do all the late night chats, all the what uh all-night prayer, you know, all of that stuff. There's there's a gift and an energy to that season. Uh, but fusion, you'll often hear if you've been around us for any length of time, you'll often hear us talk about um a long obedience in the same direction, quoting the late great pastor Eugene Peterson, and also talking about lifelong discipleship and formation, not flash in the pan, college student ministry, it was a great event, and then I don't know where I am by the time I'm 30. We are really looking at sustainable apprenticeship to Jesus and making disciples of one another in Christ for the long haul, knowing that college is an incubation time to catalyse that. And so, like, even just a personal story that's like more vulnerable for me, but my husband was in campus ministry when I met him, it's how we were first introduced. And uh he didn't get married until he was 39. And so basically, this campus ministry got as much of Ben as it needed because he pioneered it from scratch on a new campus and night or day, exactly what you described, Kendall. Exactly you and you in your 20s, it's just Ben did another career first because he's like that. Um he just gave it because there was no one at home to tell him, mate, you got in at two in the morning and you've got to be up for supervision at nine. That doesn't sound healthy. You're like, just no one to check in on that stuff. And so then the poor boy got hit hit like a train when a girl moved in. You know, when we got married, and I was I was actually like 10 years into college ministry, so I'd been doing the fusion work for longer than Ben had been in it. And my boundaries are so like sometimes my issue is I need to be slightly more flexible on my boundaries because I'm so boundaried because of experiencing near burnout and recognising if I'm called to this, I'm not gonna make it till I'm 30 if I behave like I am at 24. Like honestly, my husband burnt out in a year of uh, in fact, it was the year my daughter was born, was his last year doing full-time college ministry because he had none of the structure in place to keep him healthily in that season. And then it was COVID, and so everyone's structures had to change anyway, and everyone became online and access was everywhere and also nowhere. And so just to say, in full vulnerability, for those of you listening, either in your 20s, thinking, I can do all the late nights and the early mornings, all good. I'm like, if you think you're called beyond two years, start working on a values-based way of operating in loving one another, so that in and out of season, in the busy patches like Katie and Kendall with a newborn and two college ministries under their care, their values are kicking in around priorities to allow them to hold boundaries in space so that they make it, not just make it, flourish. And so their students go, I have an imagination for not dying on the altar of ministry or sacrificing my family on the altar of it. And so, because my husband learned the hard way, no one had ever managed him. No, he was never taught around, you know, some of this won't be sustainable if your life changed. And his life changed and it wasn't sustainable. And that's really sad. Like we don't want people to be taken out in season change, we want them to go deeper in season change. So that's a that's a thing for us to work at as leaders because we will impart it as well, won't we?
SPEAKER_00So And I will say some sometimes as leaders, there's like a fear to create boundaries because you're like, I'll I'll miss out or I'll miss this. But I've actually found, I mean, and granted, this is just the past month and a half that I've been back from maternity leave, but I found that when I've created those boundaries, the Lord has actually honored that time. Like instead of me taking my infant on campus where I see a bunch of students, which I used to get a ton of FaceTime with students, I'm actually now having the girls I disciple come over. And I've found that they are more open and more vulnerable, and they actually are like, oh my gosh, they get a piece into my life that they really enjoy seeing. And, you know, they see Kendall come home and the mess and our dog barking and me holding a crying baby, and they actually are like, Oh, like it's actually really cool. Your rails, yeah, it's human. It's actually really cool to see how the Lord has honored that and and opened them up to um some really cool things. So boundaries are are good and the Lord honors them.
SPEAKER_03So well, it but I think it even goes back to the things that we were saying, you know, um that that kids can see. Like if you say, Hey, I'm not gonna sacrifice my family on the altar of ministry, and then they're like, but you're doing it right now. You know, even though you're with us, this is what you're doing right now, right? I mean, that's that's the thing, is Miriam. I mean, no surprise to you, or probably Katie and Kendall, but like I had a similar thing with Ben. And then um, you know, early on in my youth ministry years, I mean, any night of the week, you know, I was at some sort of event, football game, choir concert, you know, like all of those sorts of things. And when I got married, um, it wasn't a hard break, like, but Krista Shook eventually came in and said, Hey, when am I gonna get to see you? When do I get a piece of you? And then of course, it does ramp up when you have kids. Like, when are you here for us and we're not getting the leftovers, right? And so, and learning that, especially learning a hard lesson through my spouse, I just affirm Katie in and of the fact, like when you do set those boundaries, you're not missing out on anything. If what is happening, what is going to happen is the time that you do have in ministry is exponentially more powerful because they do see you as human and as a leader and as an example of, oh, this can be done too. And let's be honest, this isn't just for ministry, it's for just work life and not like work home balance. It's just being able to share with you that if you have boundaries at work, it's gonna, it's gonna exponentially be better for you. Those boundaries, too, that you have around your home and your family are gonna be better. It's something I've shared around people, especially in ministry. Right now, there's about four or five young men that I just speak in, I'm I'm able to speak into their lives. I'm like, get your boundaries set now so that when you're married, you don't have to do the things that I had to go through, which were really hard in having to change and putting my family truly as a priority. And I've had one that has gotten married and had a baby, and they're like, Shook, thank you so much for at least giving me a heads up. Now, they did not set proper boundaries, to be honest, but they were like, Thank you for giving the heads up. Exactly.
SPEAKER_00I mean, right, and to be really honest, that's the tension Kendall and I are both in right now. Yeah, cool. I'm I'm not saying we have it all figured out. That's one thing that is going well, you know. Yeah, I mean, the reality right now. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02The reality is we both are doing college ministry, so we both have different programs, we both have different things we have to be at, we both have different students, you know, and and we're not working at the same organization. Yeah, it's and so it's like Monday nights are hard for me, Wednesday nights are hard for Katie. How does that go with our family? Where's the sacred space that we are that we're dividing? And I think that's a unique thing for Katie and I. Uh, there's not a lot of us that have two people in college ministry, but as a, you know, there's um usually it's one spouse. Um, and and we're trying to figure that out.
SPEAKER_00And it's but it's also good for students to see you trying to figure that out. That's right. So I think at first I felt really guilty or like embarrassed, and then I just was like the Lord just continually reminded me, like, actually, it's good that they see you be a human.
SPEAKER_01And so and and even just to give a heads up for those of us that um marriage and kids won't be part of our story, because I spent my 20s and Ben spent his 20s and 30s, not in that live stage. It's actually harder because you don't have an accountability partner that lives with you that knows when you got home late, did your emails at 11 o'clock at night, overslept something. It's harder. I had to learn in my 20s because I was traveling around the UK and then around Europe equipping churches to reach students, and then I was living on my own for the last couple of years before I was married. Um dang, the level of discipline that I had to have with my deep friends, my accountability partners, and the Holy Spirit on cultivating a healthy and not selfish Miriam because I didn't have um a spouse that was going to do a bit of that job check for me. Uh, I was so intentional with myself, but it also took that I'm I have to instigate it because it isn't because you come home and your spouse goes, Oi, we need a chat. It was just me. And so just to say it's really possible and super life-giving, I found the restriction of boundaries to be a spacious place for my my health, my life, my spirituality, and my friendships and my community.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. That could be a that could be a plot on its own.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that could be a whole thing. Absolutely. Oh, come on, somebody write that down. Somebody, AI, take a note somewhere. That was gold.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I mean, because I I mean, I didn't have any accountability either, Miriam, being young, single male. Because and and this, this, let's, let's be honest, a threat to our livelihood is usually the church or church that we work for, churches that we work for, organizations that we work for, because we're young, single, no kids, they rely even more on us because they think we have more freedom. And that's not a good precipitate.
SPEAKER_01Also, people do with college students. And so I think as as we sort of wrap up this conversation, I'd love to hear from you two. When have you been incredibly proud of a college student because they're they're actually embodying some of the healthy stuff that we wish were true that we've we've just talked about the some of the negative signs you can see. When when can you tell us a good news story? Because for example, I remember my church leaders the first time I said no to them. And it was a bit annoying for them because they really wanted me to do a certain thing on the Sunday schedule. But I remember them going, do you know what? Awkwardly, I'm so proud of you for saying no for volunteering to lead that. Because I was such a people pleaser and then a church leader pleaser when I first came to university. And so that was for them a breakthrough moment when I said no to the people mentoring me. And so, what for you are some good news stories to give us an imagination to close around when this goes well, what do we see in the life of a college student not too burnt out, not too overwhelmed, you know, is not an inevitable fate for this generation. So, what does that look like? What's the good news side to this?
SPEAKER_00I think without giving too much away for the student, I um for the student center that I run, we have a leadership team. And I had a student step down from the leadership team um when they were pretty like high up in leadership um because of a family situation going on um that they needed to be present for. And I remember them being really worried about telling me about this. And I just looked at them and I was like, I'm so proud of you. You need to be there for your family. And that them being like, what? And I was like, Yeah, like you need to do that. And um being able to communicate that to the rest of the team uh of like a good thing, um was a moment I think they all looked around and they were like, Oh, okay, you know, and for me, I was yeah, still so proud of that student that um they were able to do that. Um and then a second situation comes to mind where um one of the students I'm discipling decided to um go from a drop a double major uh because it was really overwhelming. And there were areas that they wanted to serve and do other things and get other experiences not within their major, but they just felt like the Lord was asking them to do that. And just so proud of them for absolutely saying no to something that in uh in our world today would be like, Why would you say no to that? You know, so um just because they felt a prompting from the Lord. Um it was really sweet. Uh yeah, and I think to go along with something that Kendall said, coming alongside them and not just giving our opinion, but saying, Hey, let's pray together and see what Jesus says about this. And then once you do that and you see them make decisions like that, it just makes you be like, Oh my gosh, like of course they have the Holy Spirit, of course um, they can do that. Yeah, it just really it excites you to hear the no. So yeah, yeah.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02I think a story that I'm that I'm thinking on is I had two students that their competency level of ministry is through the roof. I mean, they these two dudes are I mean, they could they could have my job tomorrow, uh or yesterday. Like they're already, you know, um definitely beyond where I was when I was their age. And both of them have chosen after they graduate to take time to uh do local church ministry and rest and be a volunteer rather than just going off and to sign up for whatever flashy position they can they can they can do. Um which you know to me would have been like, dude, you're just like like there's all these there's all these scenarios you could have gone into and there's these good job applications that you could apply for and all this thing, but watching them choose the process, watching them choose um spiritual disciplines, watching them choose uh healthy rhythms. Um, and I'll be honest, I'm I really struggle with that because I think like I'm a I'm a doer. I'm very much like, hey, let's get this done, let's go and do this next thing. Let's, if you have an opportunity, let's fit a round peg into a square a square box, you know, like that's the opposite way of that uh that idiom. But you know what I'm saying? Like I I try to just make it work. And looking at students that are already not having to do the same struggles that I had at that age is really encouraging. So I think those are sometimes they have healthier boundaries than we do, and uh that's pretty cool. Yeah, amen.
SPEAKER_03Katie, would you offer up a prayer just for uh I let's I mean we've talked about it, the the pastors and the students that are feeling just overwhelmed in this season.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. Yeah, let's pray. Jesus, we just um come before you and I ask specifically for um our hearts when they get overwhelmed. Um Lord, you know what uh leads us into that place and you know what brings us out of it. Um and Jesus, we just uh bring all of that before you. We just pray over uh pastors and leaders who might be listening to this call that if they're feeling like what you've given them is too big or um there's too many students or there's not enough time, Lord would you just be their peace and remind them that you're in control and that they can trust you um with whatever you've g you've given to them. Um Yeah, bring teammates alongside them, trusted lay persons and other people in the church that have a heart for students so they can share the load. And Jesus, we just pray for students who may be going through final exams or feeling overwhelmed with um relationship issues, family issues, um future uh worries, Lord, we just pray over their hearts that um you would be their peace and their calm in what is a huge storm. Yeah, Jesus, I even sometimes am convicted, I look at students and and be like, wow, that issue's not very big. But then I remember back to when I was a student and it was really big for me. So Jesus, would you just take us to a spot where we can have um compassion for our students and um put ourselves in their shoes and in their worries? Yeah, Jesus, just just Holy Spirit, help us to have the right words to help carry them, help us to know when to step forward and help or step back and pray. Um and just give us the the wisdom um to help them well while also modeling what it looks like to walk with you daily. So Jesus, we just give um we just give all of this over to you knowing that we don't have to worry because you're in control. Um help us not to worry, knowing that we can trust you with everything. Yeah, thank you, Jesus, for who you are and what you continue to do in all of our lives. We love you. Amen.
SPEAKER_03Amen.
SPEAKER_01Thank you both so much for your time and your care and all of the hundreds and hundreds of young people that you've passed over the years. Thank you on behalf of local churches that have received healthier people because you guys are part of their story. So bless you and thank you.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, thanks for being here. Yeah, thanks for joining us. Um, folks, thanks for listening. Um, big takeaway for me is is uh, I mean, healthy boundaries, number one, are okay, but number two, I mean, really could help us in our lives to live more fruitfully. Uh, scripture talks about that in John 15. That God doesn't just prune the bad things, he prunes the good things so that they can multiply. So when we set up those boundaries, usually it's pruning out other things so that we can be more fruitful. Uh, thanks for listening. Please share. Um, uh hit the like button. Uh, you can find us wherever podcasts are and those sorts of things. Um, and uh, we just want to say thank you once again for listening, and we will catch you next time. Thanks.
SPEAKER_01Thanks, guys. Bye.
