Church & College Students
Conversations to strengthen you and your church with the tools and confidence to love, reach and disciple college students. Brought to you by Fusion USA and friends.
Church & College Students
What are the challenges and opportunities in reaching Ivy League schools?- with Josh Williams
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The team sat down for a brilliant conversation with Josh Williams, a pastor, national leader and passionate disciple of Jesus. Josh has so many experiences and insights to share about being an Ivy league student, reaching Ivy league schools, and pastoring a local church that connects with the Ivy League campus on their doorstep. You'll find as you listen however, that Josh has vision and values applicable to all of us whether we are in the Ivy league swirl or not. Enjoy!
Learn more about Josh and his national role with the Vineyard here.
Check out the church Josh leads here: Elm City Vineyard.
Hosting conversations to strengthen you and your local church with the tools and confidence to love, reach and disciple college students.
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You're listening to the Church and College Student Podcast brought to you by Fusion USA and our friends.
SPEAKER_00Conversations to strengthen you and your church with the tools and confidence to love, reach, and disciple college students.
SPEAKER_03Well, everybody, welcome to the Church and College Student Podcast. I am Shook, and I'm here with my friend Miriam Swanson.
SPEAKER_01Hey everyone, we've got such a good episode for you today. We have just had a conversation with the brilliant Josh Williams, who both leads nationally within the Vineyard denomination and locally as a pastor opposite an Ivy League college campus, Yale, no less. And Shook and I are basically highly energized right now because Josh just gave us a fire hydrant of missional stories of reaching and being a student sharing Jesus on Ivy League school. I I feel so inspired by what I've just heard.
SPEAKER_03I mean, I'm I mean, as you would say, buzzin'. I mean, it was so great because it, you know, Miriam, in our culture, like we we do like theory, but we really, really enjoy practical. And he blended them so well together for everybody to be able to take it from theory into the practical and keep it really simple. So it's it's a great listen.
SPEAKER_01So you might be a church that sends high school seniors, some of them to Ivy League schools. You might be a local church where your proximity in terms of the campus admission is an Ivy League school. Either way, we think you're going to find this conversation inspiring and engaging. And there are so many kingdom principles that would work regardless of your local church, college, campus context. Be encouraged as you listen to Josh that there is no school out of reach of the good news of Jesus, and that actually there's loads of similarities between students at from community colleges through to elite law schools and everything in between. There's loads that Jesus is up to that we can learn and share from one another. So enjoy this uh next 40 minutes of great conversation from Josh. So today's guest with us is Josh Williams. And Josh and I haven't met in person, but we've connected online now. And I think some of your in-laws are in Jacksonville, Florida. So maybe one day, Josh, we may get to meet in person.
SPEAKER_04We definitely will.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah, okay. That sounds like a threat and a promise.
SPEAKER_04So that's nice.
SPEAKER_01Josh, the people listening to the Church and College Students podcast are going to be a mixture of church leaders, college student pastors, people that really care about young adults and college students, and probably some college leaders as well. So uh just for the benefit of the panels listening, who are you? What are you about? What do our listeners need to know about you before we jump into this conversation?
SPEAKER_05Uh well, thanks for having me on. It's always a delight to spend time with you, and I'm excited to finally see you in Jacksonville. Things to know about me, I'm from Iowa, which is um not a not a popular place in terms of when you get out of Iowa, you find that not many people have gotten out. And so, like obviously, you know, when you're in the states, like we're we're all here, but then when you're out, you're like, you don't really find other Iowans. So I escaped Iowa. Um, my family is from Indianapolis, Indiana. So got some connections there. And then for the purpose of this podcast, uh it's important to know that uh I escaped to go to Yale. So I was in uh uh New Haven for college, and I'm still there right now. So part of my story is I moved to a college town, uh, found a little bit more of my calling there. We can talk about that later. Uh, went to seminary divinity school out here. And then I went to uh uh went to work and I worked as an interversity staff worker for three years as I be I was also an associate pastor of a church called Elm City Vineyard, which is right in New Haven, right on the downtown green, right across the street from Yale. And that church is the church I pastor now. And then in terms of some other things I've gotten up to since then, I'm the Associate National Director for Evangelism and Justice for Vineyard USA. And so uh I do the local church, I do some national work, and I still do it in New Haven, the town where I went to college.
SPEAKER_01Um right now, where are you sat, Josh?
SPEAKER_05Right now, I'm in the same library that I remember being a student in, stressed out about papers, or maybe praying for someone that was stressed out when I wasn't in school, or maybe when I was in grad school, because grad school was a little bit less stressful for me at least. Uh yeah, right in the Yale uh college library.
SPEAKER_01So it doesn't matter.
SPEAKER_05It's got good, it's got good internet.
SPEAKER_01So it doesn't get more on-brand than this, folks, as we talk about how we reach and engage with our Ivy League schools in the United States. Josh is in one sitting there right now as he helps us think about this conversation. So uh what a joy, what a joy to have you, Josh. And uh yeah, thank you for joining us today for the chat.
SPEAKER_03Of course. Yeah, Josh, I'd I'd like to just start somewhere because Ivy League is, I mean, it's it's pretty small. So just tell us a little bit about the typical student, um, general insights, where do we uh I would say even misunderstand them spiritually, culturally, or emotionally, but could you just tell us about a typical Ivy League student and the misunderstandings of being an Ivy League student?
SPEAKER_01Quick question just for the naive amongst us, if someone's listening and they're like, what is Ivy League? Yeah, how would you actually define even that little pocket of university culture?
SPEAKER_05That's a great question because the answer is so strange. The answer is that it's a sports league, which almost no one would guess. They're like, wait, isn't this about like schools where they're like, you know, got some like educational stuff going on, like they've got they're old. Um yeah, all that's true, right? So you got a high educational quality, you've got a limited student pool. Some of the uh colleges are older than America, uh, like Yale, 1701.
SPEAKER_01Congratulations, Yale. It's like, yes, like not quite the same as Oxford gives it to you.
SPEAKER_05No, exactly, right? Anytime you're talking to people in Europe, they're like, so you said old was 1701. That doesn't make sense. But for us it is. Um so you got all those things going on. But the thing that makes the Ivy League, um, the Ivy League is just really that it's a group of schools that play sports against each other. And then from that became, you know, camaraderie, rivalry, and then a certain kind of prestige. But if you talk about any number of good schools across the country, usually the question is like, are they an Ivy? So in some ways it's just come to mean a good school, which of course there are many outside of this athletic league. And then I think in terms of geography, it's I think Penn is the southernmost, and then it's all the way up to some that are in, you know, New Hampshire. Uh, but it's all kind of in the New England Northeast area.
SPEAKER_01Okay, that makes sense. And so then, yeah, off the back of that. Who goes to an Ivy League school?
SPEAKER_05What's that stereotype? So, I mean, this is kind of the question. Why would someone choose to go to a school like Yale or to go to an Ivy League? In some ways, I think it's because a student is trying to get something, some kind of recognition, some way out of something. That was definitely my story. I wanted a way out of my experience in Iowa, which was not a great experience for me. Um, they're trying to get maybe seen or some esteemed. I think rarely, and I could be wrong, and I think I I know I am wrong, rarely it's, hey, this was the really the best school for, you know, the arts, or it was the best school to learn about, you know, uh mechanical engineering. Um, maybe sometimes a student wants that, and maybe that's even true, but I think usually it's some student had a world to discover, something to prove, needing an escape. And they're like, you know where I'm gonna go? The Ivy League, because I want to kind of prove something about who I am and also get accepted by someone or something that gives me a kind of status that says, I am somebody. And all of that is very dangerous ground generally. It's very dangerous ground when we're trying to follow Jesus, who's the one that gives us identity, mission, belonging. Um, it's dangerous ground for, you know, a kingdom cause where we're serving other people, not ourselves. And yet that's the student population that often comes in. Doesn't mean that they're agreeing with any of the things I just said in terms of the threats, but like that's the general feel of why someone chooses to come. And then I think a student getting here, what they experience is relief, like a kind of gratitude, a kind of, man, the pressure is off. Like I'm already at Yale, the rat race is done. Some people choose to continue it, but other people are like, I'm fine. I just need to graduate, you know, um, because the world of opportunities has started right now for them. So you end up seeing a really strange combination of students your first year. It's students that are doing a continuation of high school, which means all A's, you know, best, you know, uh best marks, um, elite internships, or people saying, Hey, I kind of made it. And so now I'm just gonna see how I fit in at this elite place, but like I don't need to perform in the same way. And then you've got some people who are really worried, can I make it here? Because I I don't even know how this happened. And that the secret is probably it's a mix of those three that everyone is sort of swapping back and forth between those three identities. Um, but that's the kind of uh not even student, it's the kind of challenge that a place like Yale represents. Like, do you continue trying to ace it? You know, do you slack off because you finally got it? Or are you just afraid that you were a mistake and you were the only mistake Yale made, which is a narrative I hear all the time as a pastor, but also I heard all the time as a student, even from incredibly brilliant people that were still wondering, why me? Why did I get selected? Um, and again, I hope when you're hearing that, you hear a ripe discipleship opportunity, which is why are you treating a university that's not actually a person as if it's like the sorting hat from Harry Potter? And like somehow you being chosen, you know, makes you somebody or makes you special when we know that actually we're special uh because of our identity in Christ. We're beloved and someone Jesus did something for us. And that's how we even have a kind of deep, meaningful worth. Our creation, our salvation, the fact that we're gonna go and belong with Jesus forever, that's the ultimate meaning. And I think the Ivy League is a right place to um provoke people with that, because often people have played a game at a very young age, you know, from uh honestly even being 14 or earlier to try to get in something uh instead of, you know, uh, in many ways thinking about what if you did everything wrong and you still found acceptance? Sure. What if you messed up and there was still grace for you? Exactly. Exactly. So it's really ripe for that kind of um opportunity for evangelism and discipleship.
SPEAKER_03Wow, that's I mean, what I'm what I'm hearing from you is is it seems like it's the same things of identity that most college students, you know, uh come into when they leave home, right? Do I really belong here? How did I get here? But if I'm hearing this correctly, or maybe I'm I'm mis misperceived this, is do you feel like because it is Ivy League, it's more of a pressure cooker on those students that attend?
SPEAKER_05Yes, it is. And I think there's a way that maybe this goes on everywhere, but I feel like students personify the university in ways that like simply are not true. Like they like that's not a real thing. Like Yale isn't a zeitgeist, it's not a a figure, but I think many people um believe there is a Yale that has accepted them that feels more mythical than like a group of you know um uh admissions officers. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01The um it's really interesting to think about those three different ways of responding to getting into an Ivy League school. And we see in the United Kingdom as well, particularly with your Oxbridge, that's Oxford and Cambridge, your Bristol's, your Edinburgh's. You know, there's a few du Durham would be another one where you get that moment where people are either like, I'm entitled to be here, I can't believe I got here, I feel completely out of place and judged immediately for being the kid that didn't go to private school that got here, or or my dad doesn't own a company, or fill-in-the-blank financial or educational background that's that's brought their baggage with them to university, either in that pride or in that insecurity. Another form of pride, I guess. Um in in places like Oxford and Cambridge, if you didn't keep passing, you could actually be kicked out of some of their top courses. Is there a for those that that come and relax because they've got in, is there genuine threat that you could get kicked out if you don't keep up with the workload and the the scores that are needed to be in one of those schools? Like, do they have an ongoing pressure? Or is it more you gotta graduate?
SPEAKER_05That not as much. It's more uh graduation. I forget there's a saying, and if someone is Ivy they'll remember it on the that's listening to the podcast. But it's something about, oh, it's uh Cs get degrees, right? So there's a culture at Yale at least where it's like just hey, C is get degrees. And I a lot of Yale students would be horrified by that. Like, oh my gosh, a C like what are you talking about? But I think there is, there are some people that are like, yeah, like this is fine, you know, like I'm good.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_05You know, another school like Brown exactly. Brown can you can do a lot of classes, credit, no credit, uh, at a different university in the Ivy League, and people just love that because they're like, it's not even about getting C's, it's just the whole thing is learning. And now I get to freely learn for the first time. So there's really positive ways and really beautiful ways that people can explore it. Um, but yeah, there's some of that. But I don't think, I mean, I definitely know people that didn't graduate, but it's the rare exception. Um, and I think it usually only happens with uh deep kind of deep problems that are also, I think, sometimes uh exacerbated at the Ivy League, like things like with mental health or people's anxiety. Sometimes it is, you know, how do you graduate from Ivy League school when you're still, you know, sending money back home to your family because of the situations there. There's a lot of reasons why. But um, yeah, that's actually, I think, pretty rare. Um, so when people mostly decide to chill, it's because whatever they want to do next, you know, it's not usually a med school, it's not usually a law school, right? Like so there's there's no other transcript. So they're like, I think I'm just chilling because I want to be an artist. I know being an artist for me ale will be amazing for me. I can go back to my small city or like my coast or my country or whatever it is, and I'll be fine. Versus there is a thing that I saw a lot my junior and senior year, senior year, which is unfortunately the rat race continues. And for me, coming to a deeper experience of knowing Jesus meant that I was off the rat race, which I was like, praise the Lord, this is amazing. But for other uh others of my classmates, I saw them stay on it to the point where they're like, I can't apply to law school now because I know given my transcript, I won't be able to get into an elite law school, which meant probably another Ivy League one. So like I'm just not doing it. I was like, what? Like you feel called to be a lawyer. They probably use a word of calling, but like, you want to be a lawyer, like just go to law school. Like, oh no, I actually can't right now because I know given my LSAT scores, I couldn't go to a place like Yale again or another Ivy League. I'm like, I'm just gonna do that. This is called exactly. I'm like they peaked too soon. I'm like, these are called shackles, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. And so for me, part of my experience of following Jesus in college was that's not what I'm after. That's not what I want. And I'm basically trying to tell folks who are not like my students that I'm pastoring, because I was a college student, um, but just my friends, like, get free. Like you can get free. And also you can still do really well academically if you want. It's just that uh you don't have to kind of make these false choices of I can either be a lawyer, which I feel like I want to be, or I can keep this kind of rat race path that then necessitates a kind of contortion and like excellence and you know, breaks to do even more excellent things if somehow your grades weren't that. I just was fully done with that. But also, more than being fully done, I was starting to, at the end of college, starting to, I don't think I would use this term, but minister to actually offer people freedom by saying, Do you like how you feel when you do this? You know, mirror that does that gospel reflection. So good. Like, do you, do you uh, do you find hope right now? And also, do you think you can have hope now? Or do you think you need, or do you think you need time for that? And is your hope, because of time, just in your law school acceptance, not just in you being a human being? Right. So I was always that way. You know, I definitely am that way now, but even as a college student, I was always asking those kinds of questions because they immediately um took off a facade and you had to get real. I think that's one of the benefits of ministering to college students is like people want the real, even if it's gonna smart or hurt a little bit, but you can ask questions even from a place of spiritual curiosity, even from a place where you're not talking to people of faith or Christians and immediately start having spiritual conversations or conversations of weight or importance. I feel like everyone on a college campus is open and ripe for that. It's almost like you step into the campus, you know, uh boundaries and also there's permission to ask those kinds of questions, which I loved then and still love now.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I'm just kind of blown away because it's it's just it it just reminds me of how many people are suffering right near each other, like proximity, but nobody talks about it at the same time. So that then then there's no community of suffering to help somebody else out. And you were seeing that and pulling people out, man. That man, what a gift that the Lord gave you during your college years to be able to do that. And you you're continuing to do it now. Um, so I would just ask you, as a local church pastor that is there on campus with Ivy League students, what um just what are the biggest barriers and opportunities as a pastor are you facing right now with these students? Yeah, that's a great question.
SPEAKER_05Um, I think there's so many opportunities. And like I said, I mean, I know some of them because I was a student myself and I was uh already a follower of Jesus, but I was committing more deeply to my faith. So for me, I saw like a rushing river of, oh, I could see how not that I would lose my faith, but that I could maybe not prioritize Jesus in my everyday discipleship. And actually, I feel like that's when I got a calling into certainly a deeper commitment to Jesus, but as a senior, a calling into ministry because I saw how just with a few different encouragements and a few nudges, um, people could have faith, you know, people could have lifelong faith, but they just needed a little bit more than what they had, whether that was a good question, a good friend, a good community, or a group. And so I just saw the ripeness of that and decided to, you know, first follow Jesus more wholeheartedly earlier in college. And then by the end, even though I didn't know what this meant at all, um, to be a pastor and felt like the call for that. So, in terms of opportunities, I think that's one of them. It's like I realized what happened to me in college, both getting called more deeply into my faith, but then being called to be a pastor can easily happen to someone else. And then I saw that happen. So an opportunity just to simply share faith and then to see people respond because uh a fixture of my college experience and certainly my graduate student experience, where I had a little bit more knowledge and experience, was that people come to faith in college. Like I just saw so many people of my friends come to know Jesus and they're still at this point lifelong disciples. And so there's an opportunity of testimony where you're hearing that from me. But I'm sure if you listen to this podcast, you've heard that before. And also if you're on a college campus and interested in faith or a worker doing that, then you know that's true. And so there's always a question if God's giving you a grace to see something, then I think he wants to uh show you that more and more with new students, with new generations, with different campuses. Um, but that was always really exciting for me was seeing people decide to follow Jesus. And I think there's a real culture right now, specifically around baptisms. I'm learning that in the vineyard, where celebrating people's faith and their newfound story in Jesus is the most contagious thing for people deciding to do the same thing. I'm thinking of one of my friends that uh is now a doctor uh and uh has just been going obviously through so much education for that to happen. He's been a doctor for a while, but now he's I think licensed where like he can be the only one in the room uh as he's doing these crazy surgeries, right?
SPEAKER_01Scary moment for a doctor.
SPEAKER_05A scary moment. Yeah. But this guy walked into college. I think he went early. So he was maybe 16 or 17 when he started. And all he wanted was to be a doctor. And obviously, you can't be a doctor that young, you can't be a doctor without that much training.
SPEAKER_01Thankfully, no offense to him. I don't really want a 16-year-old working on me.
SPEAKER_05Let's be honest. Totally, totally, right? But he was really in a place of honestly anger and frustration. It's like, why do I have to be here? That's what I want. And he had some experience with church, I think maybe when he was uh preteen, like nine, 10, 11, and then just like nothing after that. And it was um a tradition where I think he wasn't really learning that much. It was more like one of our higher church traditions, which again are amazing. But I think for him as a kid, it was sort of like, I don't even know what's going on. Like, what do these words mean, these scriptures mean? And then he uh came to faith, you know, his first year. It really happened at the end of his first year, and everything was different for him. And what the opportunity there is, he simply told a story. So he told a story to his peers. He told a story to people younger than him as he became a sophomore and then to first years, and he honestly just flourished in his faith. Now, uh, we may or may not talk about this. I definitely have seen the way that the enemy attacks college students, which is horrible and attacks kind of movements of faith. That certainly happened to him and to our little group. But there's a way that um I see that the biggest opportunity was him just literally sharing as acts as what he had seen, what he had heard. He shared his testimony. And then more people came to faith through that. And you can even trace his story, his first year, and then the next three years as more people just started sharing what was happening with them with God, going to church for the first time, going to Bible studies, going to prayer groups. And then more and more people, surprise, surprise, came to faith. And then what's the the barrier to that? I think it's simply sometimes there's other fascinating things. That college gives you. There's other fascinating, uh, maybe lies of don't do that. That's lame, you know, that's not fun, like that's problematic in this way. But to be very honest, that grew up alongside a seed of faith. And both things played out, where some people were like, Well, you're doing with Christianity, either to me or to other ones of us that I knew, where that was said. So that challenge came, but the gospel went forth, not just because we were all like, Jesus, like, you know, sharing our faith all the time. We did that quite a bit, but just because that's that was life, you know, like our life was intertwined with God. And on a college campus, um, that life intertwining with God, that prayer, that worship, those friendships, all of it becomes, like I've said, contagious already. And also it just becomes the fact of the campus in the same way that if you're friends with athletes, you know their schedule. You're like, being a college athlete is crazy. How in the world do they do that? If you're aware of a Christian in college, the same thing is true. Where you're like, why are you getting up early to pray? Why are you making those kinds of decisions with relationships? Like, why do you sing when we're doing final exams and like leave us to like go to a worship night? Like everything is so communal that all these habits of Christianity become public habits in a way that is, you know, obviously similar to part of the early church story, which is exciting, the parallels there. But also it's just that's what happens in college. So people become curious about that. And is there opposition? Of course there is. Um, but there's also deep, deep, I think, uh curiosity and also deep, uh, sometimes not more than curiosity, but participation. Like, can I join? Can I come? You know? Uh, and we've seen that time and time again.
SPEAKER_01I think that's it's also you've given a really good apologetic for, I mean, you're talking our you're talking our language, brother, because you've just given a really good apologetic for why why we believe hope in Jesus and home in the local church for college students are two sides of the same coin. Like not just I made a response to Jesus in my room on my own, or I came and I'm just gonna keep my first faith personal private, but I'm gonna protect it whilst I'm at college. But this because our faith is actually communal, even though in the West we've often sectioned it off to private versus public, uh, you know, Christianity is born of community, like God made us out of community for community in his beloved community. And so when you get a community experience like college, meeting the communal experience of faith formation, life, intergenerational discipleship, worshiping together, praying together, fasting together, the practices of faith in community, that also speaks volumes. Otherwise, it can be good for you, but not for me if it's just you when you're own in your bedroom. And I mean, I certainly everything spreads on campus from the flu to the gospel. And so you know what you've just said around friendship groups. Yeah, um I exactly had that experience and it fundamentally changed the college environment of the friendships I was in because the way Christians modelled living in community with one another and prayer, and it even really interestingly, my university had a good contingent of international students, and uh one of my roommates was um an international student, and I remember she really upped her game on her Muslim prayer uh rituals because the Christians had upped our game. And it was this really funny moment of being like, oh yeah, at college everything does get incubated.
SPEAKER_04It does.
SPEAKER_01And intensified. And so it's it's also those those moments of just knowing the spiritual temperature, if it's rising, it's rising all over the place in lots of ways.
SPEAKER_04Exactly.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's uh in terms of the um international students and the diversity students at Ivy League, you know, just thinking obviously you're a local church planted next to a campus to reach the campus as part of your love your neighbor. So for other church leaders listening, some of whom will be near Ivy Leagues as well, what what's the kind of mix of students they're getting? Are we expecting other nations to be in the mix? You know, what are some of the unique challenges you find being a local church pastor reaching this community? And I'm guessing they're not there all the time. Do you get a bit of a weird tied-in, tied out moment with your church? Like we do.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, so you know, summers are very different than uh the academic year, partly because you have less people, but also because the students you do have, they're wanting to go all in. Some people are staying around in the summer to be a part of your church more uh intentionally. And so those are the times to press into prayer rhythms, you know, worship rhythms, discipleship, all those things. But yeah, the culture is very different during the year where you're just getting different people and you're getting people with different kinds of stress going on as well. You know, just really is happening that way. And so there's something about uh, you know, the question of what kinds of students do you get? Here's what I noticed. And I think this is, I don't know, fairly interesting. We get a lot of students that are going to Yale or going to other colleges, but there's also something else going on for them that's a part of their, let's say, um, kind of profile, background story. What do we mean by that? We get a lot of, you know, people that might have something else that separates them from just like an average Yale student or average college student. Maybe they're a student athlete. Maybe they're uh international student, like you said. They're trying to find out Yale is weird. Can I find someplace to kind of ground me? Uh, and especially from countries where they're like, Christianity is more either normative here because of being in a country, uh, let's say like Ghana or Uganda, where there's just like high populations that are Christian, or even let's say they're from Europe and they're like, well, Christianity might not be normal as much to uh my home culture or my home country, but I've gotten used to that. And I need to know where are people seriously practicing their faith? Because let's say in London, I'm doing that with my church, but I don't know where that happens uh in New Haven because it feels a little too quaint. It feels a little too normal here. Like there's a lot of Christianity in America, and sometimes people can uh not know in that Christianity culture where is the actual Jesus following taking place. And again, college, people really don't know that. They think, especially outside of the faith, Christianity is a culture versus practices that you would do and habits you would have and a kind of devotion that's more than just saying, oh, I listen to Christian music, I watch Christian movies, I kind of do things that look Christian in terms of like my weekend activities. And I think college students, in my experience, have not at all wanted to engage with that because they'll just politely say, Well, that's not who I am or what I am. But if you go to practices, like you're saying, that's the spirituality piece that college students are very interested in. And so um, we found that as we make things more practice-oriented, um, people start to get curious. And so then it opens up from, okay, what students do you reach? It's like, well, there's people that are, you know, maybe from Christian uh countries, let's say um across the globe where Christianity is maybe at more like a 70%, maybe the global south. You've got students that are looking for refuge, they're maybe from colder countries, just using some myssiology term, but they've gotten, you know, worn from their church experience and they're kind of trying to find one. But that's all Christians, right? And uh and even that happens with Americans, where um there's, you know, black Christians, Hispanic Christians, and they're looking for like, is anyone a Christian at Yale? Like, is anyone gonna hold these tensions of like, of course we care about justice? And we also worship on Sundays. Like, and so there's all these times where if you look at like, you know, a crew or intervarsity, you can see like just the flavor of who they get. It's like, oh, you found like kind of refugees. You found like Christian people that didn't feel connected, and you've gathered them into a group. And so the worst of that is becomes a holy huddle. The best of it is it's literally a little church. And it's a little church that hopefully is connected by the local church. Sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't, but they sort of gathered the remnant. What I'm really excited about is not just discipling the remnant or hosting the remnant, but having those people get on fire for their faith and start living for Jesus in the college campus environment. Because then you get news stories like my friend who wasn't part of a huddle like that that instantly breaks the huddle, where people, and I love when this happens, this happens quite a bit, where people were like, wait, I didn't know he was Christian. I'm like, well, he wasn't, you know, and it's people that knew people that knew that person from their Orgo, you know, class. They knew that person from their uh, you know, intramural basketball team, but they didn't know that they were approaching deep life in Jesus. Because Yale, I think, has, let's see, maybe it's like two, it's like a thousand something, I think, each class. And so we're talking about maybe six, like 5400, 6,000 people, something like that. It might, I think it's a little bit bigger than what I went, but it's not a lot of people at the end of the day. No, you can't. And so a lot of people have exactly a lot of people have this relational mapping where if you're gonna stay a huddle, and let's say your huddle is 50 people or 100 or even 500, 500 is you know, you're operating a different number there. But if it's under 200, you could you could be your campus's best kept secret. You really could. And oftentimes Christian groups are, versus if you got, let's say, 50, but each of those 50 are sharing their story and sharing their witness with let's even say three other people, right? Like that starts to change things in a multiplicative way. And I think I experienced that when I was in college. And certainly when I was in grad student, I was when I was in grad school, um, but then saw um some of my friends that I was in college with start doing that. I'm like, oh, we're impacting the whole campus, I think. Um and it's not like the whole campus is coming to faith in Jesus, but so many people in certain classes, certain years. I'm like, I bet you could say that one out of, and this is me, just I am just talking, but I'm pretty sure this is true. Probably one out of 10, probably one out of five would be too strong. Maybe one out of 10 had some kind of like gospel connection, whether that is actually hearing a gospel presentation, being invited to a church. And that seems like it's crazy, but some of those students were like very much like they knew hundred, like honestly, a hundred people. So it's it's some high volume. Exactly. Some people, they're high volume, and other people might have been they cover, you know, five people or 10 people. And so it feels like I'm making that up. And again, I don't know the stats for it, but I'll just tell you this. That's what it felt like given a season that we were in, which just felt like I wouldn't have called it revival, I wouldn't have called it renewal. It just felt felt normal to me. Have I experienced years that are a lot less than that? I certainly have at this point. But it just really felt like a normal expression of all they were doing was just sharing what happened in their lives. They really did. And so I think in terms of who we get, we get people in the huddle where we're uh kindly and gently breaking the huddle up. We also get people outside of the huddle, which looks like people we ran into that I think God really just the God's hand was already on their life and you could just kind of see it. And then even if they were resisting, they were resisting something versus not resisting something. And so we could tell it feels like they're like almost resisting God. You'll know. Exactly. That might mean that God is present or God's there in a way. And we just press in with gentle, you know, communication, kindness, love, and just keep asking questions. And sometimes people made decisions for Jesus and sometimes they didn't. Um, either one happened. But what it looked like was there was an encounter. And one last thing I'll say because it, you know, it might help make sense of the figure that I gave, is you know, being a vineyard church by a college campus, it just allowed for really cool things to happen. Because if there was someone that had a dream, this is a literal story. Um, they would ask someone who they knew was a Christian, hey, can you interpret this? And all of a sudden a vineyard person got involved. So literally, this person had this crazy, the craziest dream. Uh and it was like wild. I was like, wow, this might feel this might be from the Lord. I I can remember two distinct ones. One is a dream a person had when they were uh a child. And it was literally a dream, I think, about um God saying that he was real to them. It was a person from a Chinese context didn't really know the concept of God um uh in a monotheistic way. But you could look at the images, you know, one time this literally was a home group where they were like, yeah, so it's a bridge and it's a certain bridge in in China, and there's uh it was cut off and so it wasn't complete, but there was a rainbow completing the bridge, and there were bubbles, and the bubbles had fish in them, and we were like, we don't want to act like we're crazy or uh say this exactly what it means, but like, what if the bridge is like reconciliation with you and God? What if the rainbow is a promise of that? Because that's like what we see in the Noah story. What if the fish that are in bubbles are actually about a call to like go and fish for people, and that's a call that you have? And what if this being in China is that God's trying to say he cares about your ethnic identity, he cares about where you're placed culturally, you don't have to raise that part of who you are. That's actually the context for you meeting God. And who's like, oh my gosh, could it mean that? I'm like, yes. And the fact that the fact that I remember that years later means that for at least for me, it was a meaningful thing. Yeah. The other dream is way too complicated. Yeah, the other dream is way too complicated to share. But it it was a similar kind of a person that wasn't a follower of Jesus, had an urgent dream that involved literally a phone, like a red phone. Um, and it was about, will you answer the call? And he brought that, he brought that dream to Christian community. And of course, we interpreted it. So like there's dreams, there's also physical healing. I could tell you story after story of people that were healed physically on campus, and then that created uh a buzz. Usually it always happens with uh the buzz always happens with athletes because so many people's journey um for following Jesus happens with an injury. Why? Because their identity was in their athletic performance. And then they get injured, and then they're like, wow, I need to know Jesus because I know I need to be something apart from the sport. But also, we've seen people get injured have that realization, and then we pray for healing and they get healed. And then who wants to get prayer now? All these student athletes dealing with their injuries, right? Um, and then also simply prophetic words, words about who God is and who uh and who they are in Christ and people experiencing truth and wanting to um to know more. I mean, I have a really funny story about a person we know in the venue that's incredibly prophetically gifted. And I he he would say I tricked him. I would say I gave him an invitation. But I I think exactly I did a barbecue and so I just bought I don't know, like $400, $500 worth of stuff from Costco. Got a uh, it was legit, you know, found out all the forms, did all the things I needed to do to be there. Uh, we were a student group, and we just did a barbecue on on campus. And I said, Hey, will you just come, the prophetic guy? And so he just came and was just eating food. And I just told people, hey, if you want to hear about yourself, this person's sharing. And so literally, I'm not lying, it's at least a hundred people got prayer, and probably more than that, but I want to be conservative.
SPEAKER_01Josh, I had you gave him so many burgers. Yes.
SPEAKER_05No, we gave a we gave a we gave away burgers, we gave away outs. And then for him, I think we had just um a perpetual stream of, I think his favorite drink at that point was Baja Blast. So we'd have people just get him Baja Blast, right? Just fine, go out to Bell energy and he was good. And my favorite line from that time was you know, he's just a great person, tons of respect because he engages people prophetically. And you know how the prophetic, like there's a way that he really does you see people. And so you want even people's agency and permission to be seen that way. It's hey, can I pray for you? My favorite one of my favorite lines from that time was uh he asked, Hey, can I pray for you? And this guy had been waiting in line for like 45 minutes or more, something like that. And he goes, Well, what else are you gonna do? And I was like, What? This is a guy that I that had no Christian connection.
SPEAKER_01So you now have a full expectation. Oh, totally. He was like, Well, why have I been waiting? Yeah, of course. Of course.
SPEAKER_05And it was just this sense of uh again, we didn't we didn't do that the next day. You know, it wasn't like, hey, let's just do that again the same way. But what it taught me is there's such hunger for these kinds of experiences, and even more than hunger, when they happen, like you're saying, Miriam, they travel. They travel on the campus very fast. And again, I'm just filled with stories of that, not because our church is amazing in some way, just because that's who God is and it's what the college, the context of the college campus does. You know, anyone could do this. And I say vineyard church, it's just because those are our our family habits. Anyone that's learning more about praying for people, you know, anyone that's open to sharing wisdom from scripture, you know, it's simple things. I just think when you're dealing with um power, uh, you're gonna have a powerful reaction and that's gonna go one way or the other, but it's gonna go somewhere. And that's what we've experienced at Elm City Vineyard, but also what I've experienced from vineyards all over the country, because vineyards do really well in college towns because they're using that culture of curiosity academically and then putting on faith. Hey, what do you think about this? What was your thought with the sermon? Like, how how do you approach that? So you get to be conversational, not just about a subject, but about who God is. And that produces so many amazing stories.
SPEAKER_01Wonderful gift. Uh, you know, one of the reasons why we work and adore the vineyard as a movement of churches is because the word and spirit blend, the mixture of mission, justice, the the charismatic meeting the academic, the fact that yes, you can meet them with their questions of curiosity in their brain, but the Holy Spirit can also encounter them in their spirit in such a way that it bypasses a couple of sticking points through healing, through a prophetic word, like that blend in highly academic environments I've seen to be particularly powerful. So even if you're sitting here as a little church that's maybe more charismatic, more Pentecostal, or even more just like, oh gosh, like we do lots of prayer and stuff, but we wouldn't know how to academically debate. That would I'd feel very intimidated by an Ivy League school. Don't be at all.
SPEAKER_05No, that's brilliant. I would just want to say, because we're talking about the Ivy League, and for me, it wasn't a um a main part of my experience. So many people are expecting that combative culture. It definitely exists, but like you're saying, there's so many ways around it. And also you can turn uh a like a combat situation, a war situation into a curious, even charge one pretty easily. Wow, you really care about this. You have a lot of things to say. Why do you care so much? Or like, do you care this much about Islam? Do you care this much about Buddhism? Seems like you're really focused on Christianity. Is there a story there? Like a question. It's not meant to deflect, but really to open up. And then so much more happens from that. And again, bring people resources. People love resources in college. Bring people resources, even engage in a healthy debate if you must, and even if you want to, but ultimately there's so much heart work that's happening where simple questions, simple invitations will uh move things not from the head to the heart, but allow the head to keep going at the rate it's going and to engage the heart. And ultimately, that's what I think Ivy League uh students wanted. They didn't want to have an emotional experience where it's like, oh, I'm so stressed about this final that now I need Jesus. Did that happen? Of course it did. Did they want that? Not necessarily. What people want more is I want to be thinking so critically about who God is, about faith, and I want to have an experience with God that's so big that there's room for my questions. And you know, one of our things we've said at our church over the years is faith and questions. And for us, it's both. It's both. You know, it's faith seeking understanding. And so we're never scared of people's questions at our church. I don't believe we are, but we also don't center them, meaning all we're trying to do is debate you because that's what school is. And people honestly want to break from that sometimes. What we want to do is say, why do you care about the questions you're asking? What's under them? And also, here's some resources. Here's some people that are theological interlocutors for this question. And by the way, when you said that you care about that question of why God or how God could be good in a world with evil, like, can I tell you a story about that for my own life? Or can I pray for you about that? Or can I introduce you to someone that has a testimony where they're from Ukraine and they have faith and they figured this question out in their live testimony? Do you want to hear from them? People are so interested in all of that, specifically the third, which is that testimony of, oh, I'm not ready to say I could believe in God if that happened in my home country, but I actually am down to hear them. Why? Because that's what college is. It's uh it's the public, it's the commons. And so everyone is shopping those kinds of questions and answers. And so why shouldn't we be doing that in the public square? Because people can take a peek and then see, like Jesus, they want to respond to the invitation, come and see, you know? I've I've experienced more people wanting to take that invitation than not.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Well, Josh, thank you so much for today and just giving us some some scope and some vision around um, number one, just engaging the mission field of uh the Ivy League campus and the opportunities and the barriers that just kind of surround it. Um, man, what a I I mean, I think, Miriam, we we may have to have this man back on. I mean, he was just so much gold.
SPEAKER_01It seems great.
SPEAKER_03It would be fun. It would be fun. So thank you so much for today and just all that you've shared because I I mean, truly, you have a gift of really breaking it down into the practical and making it simple. And I don't mean, I don't necessarily mean uh to where it's so simple that it's it's it's it's uh unengaging or you know, that sort of thing, but just simple for us to understand that like it's not as intimidating to engage like an Ivy League campus, like that sort of thing. We have these perceptions, you know, especially like living all the way away from the Northeast. You hear Ivy League and you're like, man, how do I how would I even do that? And you've done such a brilliant job today is showing us the kingdom impact of engaging in Ivy League campus, which is huge. So thank you so much for joining us today.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, thank you. Well, thank you for your time. I really appreciate it. I'll do it real quick.
SPEAKER_03Well, thanks for listening now. Everybody, um, remember that you can find us on Instagram, you can find us on Facebook, of course. You can find the podcast wherever you find podcasts and wherever you're listening right now. It's yeah. Well, what am I talking about, even? Um, but if you are enjoying our podcast, would you please hit the like button and would you share with your friends that you know would engage with our content? We'll have some great things in our show notes today. And once again, we just want to say thank you for joining us and uh we'll see you later. Have a great day.
