Joe Reilly on Drug Testing in America
Curious about the drug screening industry? Looking to get your start in a rewarding career? Trying to navigate the changing landscape of federal and state laws and how they influence your companies drug testing policy? If you have leaned in for any of these questions then you have found the podcast you have been looking for. Join Joe Reilly on this informative and educational adventure in drug screening in America.
Joe Reilly on Drug Testing in America
Inside the World of Workplace Drug Testing: Rights, Rules, and Realities
Ever wondered what happens when someone tests positive on a workplace drug test? Or how marijuana legalization affects employer testing policies? Drug testing expert Joe Riley pulls back the curtain on the often-misunderstood world of workplace drug screening in this comprehensive exploration of rights, regulations, and realities.
With 30 years of industry experience, Riley addresses the confusion surrounding marijuana testing in states where recreational or medical use is legal. Despite shifting public attitudes and state laws, employers generally maintain the right to test for marijuana—especially in safety-sensitive positions. For DOT-regulated jobs like truck drivers and airline pilots, federal regulations trump state laws, meaning zero tolerance policies remain in effect regardless of local marijuana legislation.
The conversation delves into the critical distinction between drug testing and impairment testing. Unlike alcohol breathalyzers that measure current intoxication, marijuana tests can only confirm past use without indicating when consumption occurred or current impairment. This limitation creates significant challenges for both employers implementing fair policies and employees navigating their rights across different regulatory environments.
Riley also illuminates the essential roles of Medical Review Officers (MROs) and Third-Party Administrators (TPAs) in creating legally sound testing programs. These professionals help employers avoid costly mistakes like inconsistent policy application or improper handling of positive results. From collection procedures to confirmation testing, each step must follow precise protocols to withstand potential legal challenges.
Whether you're an employer developing a drug-free workplace program, an employee trying to understand your rights, or simply curious about how drug testing works, this episode provides invaluable insights into a complex system that affects millions of American workers. Subscribe to hear our upcoming interviews with more industry experts as we continue exploring workplace compliance issues that impact businesses and employees nationwide.
and welcome to another podcast episode of Joe Riley on drug testing in America. On today's episode, we're gonna go deep inside drug testing in general. It's an all-encompassing episode with questions that we get from both emails, some of our comments on YouTube and much more, and we're going to start right away by introducing Joe. Good afternoon, joe. How are you doing.
Speaker 2:I am doing wonderful, jesse, and I'm excited about today's episode. As you mentioned, we get questions from our audience via email, via comment. We also got some questions from my staff and team at National Drug Screening and also from some of our customers. So I gave you the questions that we received. But if you have any other questions? As kind of a newcomer, now we've been together, what seven episodes prior to today?
Speaker 1:A hundred percent yeah.
Speaker 2:You've learned a little bit about drug testing and, since you're interacting with me today, I know, jesse, that you do podcast producing, which we're here I know you also do real estate. What else do you do or what have you done in your life? And a little bit about yourself.
Speaker 1:Oh well, that's a big question. I had a short stint of massage therapy.
Speaker 2:Oh wow, Interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, when I was 18, I got licensed and been on cruise ships and some fine hotel establishments, resort establishments in South Florida and on the West Coast of Florida. So that was my first career Awesome, awesome and through that I got into fine dining. I've worked at some country clubs in the area, worked with some fabulous people, some great members. A lot of them are probably people you would recognize, but they're known for business, some celebrities as far as sports and entertainment as well.
Speaker 2:Awesome. And have you been for a drug test?
Speaker 1:Plenty of times, especially in those country club situations. They want to make sure that you have a complete evaluation of background and criminal history and everything else All right.
Speaker 2:So you peed in a cup.
Speaker 1:A few times.
Speaker 2:Okay, and did you kind of understand what was going on, or was it vague to you?
Speaker 1:No, I knew they were looking for substances um in the urine.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely well, good um. I look forward to today um mention our sponsor yeah, real quick.
Speaker 1:Uh, we just want to give a shout out to our episode sponsor, clearinghouse services. Clearinghouse services helping trucking companies and cdl drivers stay compliant. You can find out more at clearinghouseservicescom. That's clearinghouseservicescom.
Speaker 2:Yeah and Jesse. Clearinghouseservicescom is an offshoot of our company National Drug Screening. We started about five years ago when the United States Department of Transportation specifically the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration or FMCSA for short, which regulates the trucking industry and the private motor coach bus industry created a database to keep track of violators, to keep track of truck drivers who tested positive, and so the idea was that if you're hiring a truck driver, you can go into this database and see if they have a previous record of using illicit substances and testing positive and whether or not they've cleared that up with the required substance abuse professional evaluation and potential treatment that would be required for that particular truck driver. So what we do at clearinghouseservicescom is we help trucking companies, as well as truck drivers, as well as others in the industry, navigate their particular roles in the clearinghouse, and we help them to utilize that clearinghouse database because, as with any governmental system, it sometimes is challenging and not the most user-friendly. So with clearinghouseservicescom, we help folks navigate the clearinghouse.
Speaker 1:I see. So it seems like anybody who has truck drivers as part of their business and that's who they're essentially operating as far as, like you know, labor and employment, that would be a clearinghouse services would be a great resource for them, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because they're actually required to go into that clearinghouse. But they have to register, they have to go through some hoops and hurdles to get into it, and then they got to figure out how to work in it and we help them with all that. So that's that's what we do. We kind of hold their hand and we help them through that database and how to work it.
Speaker 1:I see, okay. Well, once again, thank you for our sponsor for today and listen, we have an action-packed show. I have lots of questions to Screening customers of National Drug Screening and, of course, our podcast audience, and that's been really cool seeing some engagement on YouTube with some people asking honest questions and things that you know in the industry. You may think it's common sense, but for the public it's really not so much.
Speaker 2:And a few silly questions too. Always some silly questions.
Speaker 1:Always some silly, you know, and we'll get into those as well, because let's see what we have in store. So, moving on to let's see our first question. Well, real quick, Joe, for some people who don't know, you know how'd you get into the business, how long you been in the business?
Speaker 2:I feel like you've been doing this for a long time. Can you clear up why you got into it? Yeah, I get that question a lot. How'd you get into the drug testing business? And so I've always kind of been in business in some way since I was like 12 years old. You know, when it snowed I would take my shovel and go down to the shops on the street and ask the shop owners if I could shovel for them. So that was kind of one of my first business entities that I had.
Speaker 2:But moving to Florida after college, in New York City I owned and operated with a couple of partners a window treatment business. When vertical blinds first came out, it was a hot thing to put on. The windows first came out, it was a hot thing to put on the windows. I worked in and ended up owning and operating a local bar nightclub. And then I ended up working with a consulting and risk management firm with a partner where we specialized in helping bars, restaurants, country clubs, anybody with a liquor license. We help them to protect that liquor license.
Speaker 1:I see. So that's kind of like a natural segue into when, I guess, some of the laws were passed that allowed for drug testing, or how that industry developed in front of you, yeah.
Speaker 2:So we were operating in Florida under Florida alcoholic beverage laws and we came across a law in Florida recently passed that said if a business in Florida implements a comprehensive drug-free workplace program they will automatically by law get a 5% discount on workers' comp insurance.
Speaker 2:So my partner at the time in that business, jim Greer, who's also now in the drug testing business as a leading expert, him and I said well, that law sounds familiar to what we do for our restaurant clients. We can help them save money. Sounds like a no-brainer. And so we called up a laboratory and they sent up a sales rep to meet with us and he's still a good friend of mine and still a sales rep a guy by the name of Tom Moore, and he sat down with us at nine o'clock in the morning and he didn't leave till six o'clock and then we went and had dinner and he told us everything we needed to know about opening up a drug testing business. So that was in 1993. We opened up at the time Florida drug screening and that's how we got started and we thought that all of our hospitality related clients would instantly become drug testing clients because we knew they could save money. But a lot of them were like well, if we do drug testing, we won't have any employees.
Speaker 2:And that wasn't really true, but they thought it was true. So we started going after construction companies and other type businesses that are kind of safety sensitive, and that's how we got started.
Speaker 1:Right, I imagine OSHA has a lot more compliant issues versus a restaurant.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but there's probably a lot more drug use in a restaurant, so kind of a double-edged sword there.
Speaker 1:No, absolutely. I mean for most people, if you're a crane operator, that's a very specialized position, that's something you probably took training for and you really don't want to do that, versus you know pouring rum and coke, which probably didn't take that much training and it's not as as much of an investment as far as you know committing to your, your personal career choice and and so forth. So for I think a lot of people in in the hospitality, uh, it's a little bit more transient, you know you kind of pick up and go and easily change careers, versus someone again who has something more specialized, more of a skill set.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I'll tell you a quick story. I know we're going to talk about funny or unique stories about drug testing later on, but early on we had a client in our hospitality consulting business down in a large restaurant down in Delroy Beach, florida, and the owner said you know, I'm really scared about implementing a drug-free workplace and doing drug testing, but I'm going to do it. I think it's the right thing to do. Okay, and he did. He implemented a comprehensive drug-free workplace. I went down there, we had a meeting with all of their employees and we explained the program to them and they started doing drug testing might cause a workers' comp claim.
Speaker 2:And so about eight months into the program, the owner of this restaurant called me up and he said he said my chef, who's the best chef I ever had, who was the best chef in town, and I hired him away from another place and my business kind of grew by 30% when I brought in this chef. He cut his finger last night and we had to send him to get his finger stitched up. And they also did a drug test and he says I don't want to tell you this, joe, but he tested positive for cocaine. Oh no, and he said what should I do? And I said well, I said remember, when we started this program, we put together a written policy. What does the policy say? And he says well, joe, you wrote the policy. You tell me what it says. And so I said well, let me grab the file and look at your policy. And it says that you decided that you were going to have zero tolerance and immediate termination. And he says oh, my goodness, what am I going to do? He says I'll get back to you, just like that.
Speaker 2:And I didn't hear from him for three or four days. And about four days in, I decided I'd give him a call. And I said I'll just call him Mr Restaurant Owner. Sure, I don't want to divulge any names or anything, right, right. And he said well, you know, joe, I thought about this, I prayed about it, and I came in yesterday and I fired him because our policy says that if you test positive for illicit drugs, you are going to be fired. And he says and as soon as I did that, I had other staff members coming up to me telling me that it was the best thing I ever did, wow, that he was a serious cocaine user. Wow.
Speaker 2:He was stealing meat out of the back and selling it to people. He was nasty and rude to the other team members and he says, well, the policy worked. Yeah, okay, we got rid of a bad apple. The policy worked.
Speaker 1:And sometimes that is a critical decision, you know, as far as laying off any staff, right, that's maybe unemployment, that's all these other things. Now you've got to, you know, find someone else and recruit somebody else. Maybe you may not poach another restaurant.
Speaker 2:It's a challenge.
Speaker 1:It's definitely a challenge it comes with all of these things, that now you have to follow up and put yourself in an uncomfortable position. But doing the right thing is all that matters, especially if you want a successful business.
Speaker 2:It's always the way to go. Do the right thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, speaking of illicit drugs, I know one of the popular talking points with especially now, you know, at the age of recreational, medical, licensed marijuana use everybody. I feel like a lot of people are more concerned about that because it is so prevalent and people want to get a job, but they also like that there's a lot of liberty surrounding marijuana use. There's a lot of liberty surrounding marijuana use. So, as big of a topic as it is, we hear again a lot of questions Is employer testing for marijuana even legal?
Speaker 2:Great question and we did have an episode several weeks back where we spent the whole hour on marijuana. But quick answer to that question is employer testing for marijuana is legal and there's some caveats to that. First off, if it is a DOT, department of Transportation regulated employer a trucking company, an airline, a bus company, an airline, a bus company it is not only legal to drug test for marijuana, it is required. And also in that situation the use of marijuana is prohibited for those employees that work for those companies, regardless of the status in that state that may allow medical marijuana or may allow recreational marijuana. So if you're a truck driver, an airline pilot, an airline attendant, a bus driver, if you use marijuana you can lose your job, even if the state tells you it's legal.
Speaker 2:So it is legal to test for marijuana. Now for the non-regulated companies that are not regulated by the United States Transportation, which is far more than a number of regulated companies they have to pay attention to state laws. So there are state laws on medical marijuana, like in Florida. There are state laws on recreational marijuana, like in Florida. There are state laws on recreational marijuana, like in Colorado and 26 other states. And you have to be familiar or hire a professional company to keep you abreast of what the law says and what the law means.
Speaker 2:And in many states you can maintain the right to operate as a drug-free workplace and you can maintain a zero-tolerance policy. But in some states you can test for marijuana, but you got to be really careful about what you do with a positive result. And in some states you cannot terminate right away. You have to give them a second chance. There has to be maybe some other reason to terminate. So it really comes down to companies all across America which we deal with, companies all across America. What are the state laws in the states that you operate in and you got to know what they are. If you're going to test for marijuana and perhaps maybe you say I'm not even going to be bothered, I'm going to drop marijuana from my drug testing panel.
Speaker 1:And that's not always a smart choice.
Speaker 2:It may not be, because if your employee gets hurt or hurts somebody and it turns out that they were under the influence of marijuana, you're going to have more liability to deal with.
Speaker 1:Now there's a lot of over-the-counter substitute THC, this THC that I guess. There's a lot of different forms of THC they have, like these Delta 8s, delta 9s or what may have. You Is that also? Is there just one specific THC that's tested or are there many?
Speaker 2:So question and different varieties of products. There's also the CBD products that are highly promoted In the drug testing world. We're testing for the metabolite of THC Delta-9, but it doesn't mean that it won't pick up Delta-8. Delta 9, but it doesn't mean that it won't pick up delta 8. And for the dot regulated companies, we tell those employees to take supplemental products with caution because a cbd product, for example, whether it be an oil, whether it be a gummy bear, whether whatever it might appeal, okay, typically the labeling on those products will say may not, can, will not contain more than 0.05 percent THC. But nobody's regulating the labeling of those products. They are not covered by the FDA, the Food and Drug Administration, and we've actually purchased some of those products and they had far more than 0.05% THC and people have taken those products and tested positive for the metabolite of THC and the lab doesn't know whether you took a gummy bear or you smoked a joint and if you are positive for THC you have a violation.
Speaker 1:Right, okay, so as a rule of thumb, probably avoid it, because the tests right now aren't that accurate to know over-the-counter type THC versus the dispensary or even black market THC. It's all yeah.
Speaker 2:So the labs, if there's THC in the product, you can't tell where it came from. Okay, perfect, it came from smoking a joint. It came from eating a gummy bear? Right, it came from maybe excessive oils on your body that the THC got into your pores somehow. So really can't tell. So we tell people if you work somewhere that tests for marijuana use CBD products with great caution.
Speaker 1:Roger, okay, so that covers all the anything that claims it has a high or effect, like THC or even CBD, because even dogs are taking CBD.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Apparently they have like really good benefits.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and we're going to start testing dogs for drugs next year, right, well, as soon as they get jobs, right. So well, that answers a lot of those questions and I hope that clears things up for the audience. And I know that's kind of like again a really touchy subject because you know, my state gives me freedom to use this but my employer doesn't. So what supersedes, is it my employer needs to adjust their policy towards the state law? Or the state law is, you know, a primary kind of overshadowing law? But again, seeking employment, you decide that there's a new law underneath the state law and that's the employee handbook and so forth, right, yeah, and two quick points on that.
Speaker 2:I lost my train of thought on one of them, but the other one was oh, here it is. People say know, I'd rather smoke a joint than drink six beers and get drunk. You know, getting drunk's worse? Well, we don't really know that. Okay, that getting drunk is worse than getting stoned on marijuana. But the difference is we have alcohol testing that can tell me if you're impaired okay, we don't have any marijuana testing that can tell me if you're impaired Okay, we don't have any marijuana testing that can tell me you're impaired. That's a big difference, okay, because someone can say well, I smoked yesterday. Well, maybe you did, but we can't prove that either way, Okay.
Speaker 2:Now there's the whole issue that maybe marijuana will become legal on a federal level and maybe marijuana testing will go away potentially. But I can tell you I flew on a plane yesterday or the day before and flew back last night. I don't want to get on an airplane and find out that, because marijuana is 100% legal, that the pilots smoked two joints on their way to work, right, okay. And I don't want to go in for surgery and find out that the physician thinks that he can do better surgery when he's got a slight buzz on real THC gummy bears. So you have to think of it that way also, and it's a touchy subject, but we've got to move with caution, right, it's a touchy subject.
Speaker 1:But we've got to move with caution Right and ultimately you are subject to the employer's policy if you seek employment with that person. So no matter what the state says, you're still subject to the policy.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and some individuals don't like that, right, and they'll voice their opinions on it. Right. But they have a choice of where they want to work or work at all.
Speaker 1:Exactly, and I can imagine like maybe you're doing just a really mundane job like sifting mail and maybe a little gummy may help the hours go by and maybe make that a little bit, because there's not a whole lot. But as far as the post office driver, the guy who's delivering the mail or any delivery driver, whoever gets behind the wheel, definitely shouldn't be on gummies and so I could see where some people are like. But I don't drive, I just sit here and answer the phones. Or I'm a janitor. All I do is clean bathrooms all day. Why can't I take a gummy? I'm sure there's going to be some of that kind of reasoning and justifications as well, but ultimately it's what your employer decides and they may have a first or second type case. You know in some cases a zero tolerance, so you know you may get by like oh, I had backache. Maybe your employer understands the first time you get off with a warning. But again, with DOT and other professions, yeah, it should be zero tolerance, especially a pilot, of all people.
Speaker 2:Pilot, truck driver, ferry boat operator, lots and lots. But yeah, like you mentioned, people are going to say, and people are going to roll the dice that have those more those type of jobs where they don't believe that they're doing anything with any safety or risk, right, they're going to roll the dice and take it anyway. Maybe they get tested, maybe they don't. Maybe they come out positive, maybe they don't.
Speaker 1:Right and maybe it's just a job that you know they could care less and they don't. You know it's not, again, a specialized skill set, they didn't go to school for it. They take it or leave it kind of attitude, and in that case, yeah, you're always going to have those kind of employees as well. But anyway, keep the questions coming, because this is still a very controversial topic and and you could just see the comments on some of the videos that we have where it's gotten- you know it's a robust conversation.
Speaker 2:Let's just say that, yeah, and think about it next time you get on an airplane.
Speaker 1:No, kidding, no kidding. Well, joe, all right, moving on from that. So let's talk about employer liability. What happens when testing goes wrong? I mean, is there? I mean, how many bad tests are there? Are people being mistests, and what's the liability for the employer?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, in any situation, employers have liabilities. If they send their employee out to run an errand and they get a crash, they got liability right. Yeah, so with the drug testing program, first off is the employer should have a policy about the drug testing program. Sometimes we have employers that are doing drug testing and they got no policy. So what do they do if they get a positive? They never told the person they can't use drugs, so they fire somebody and the person you know calls Morgan Morgan not to give them a plug, but I just saw their billboard and heard them on the radio, like I do every day.
Speaker 2:And the attorney says well, did they ever tell you you can't use illicit drugs? Did they ever tell you you can't smoke marijuana? Did they ever tell you you can't use cocaine? No, they never told me that. Do they have any policy in writing that says that? No, I don't know of anything like that. And then they subpoena the company and there is no policy and they're like you know. The employer could face some liability there on that termination. Right.
Speaker 2:Now, secondly, even if you do have a policy, it needs to be well written. It needs to follow any laws and regulations based on the state law or based on the federal law for DOT and it needs to kind of follow the best practices that have been kind of formulated over the last 30 years of employment drug testing. And, most importantly, you have a written policy. You have to follow it. Okay. So if you don't follow the policy you can have liability. You have to treat everybody the same way that the policy outlines. You know, if Johnny tests positive for cocaine and Mary tests positive for cocaine and Mary's a cousin of the owner and you keep Mary on board but you fire Johnny, I think you're going to have a little bit of a problem. Fire Johnny, I think you're going to have a little bit of a problem. Okay, inconsistent treatment for the same type of violation.
Speaker 2:So there are liabilities that employers face and having a professional drug testing company to help them do the drug testing okay will help them a long way. Many companies do instant drug testing where you get a negative result instantly, in five minutes. Those testing devices are accurate for a negative result. They are not accurate for a positive result. So if you take action on that instant drug test on a positive result, there's liability. What you should do is send that positive into a laboratory for additional confirmation, testing and review of that result by a professional licensed medical person to make sure that there isn't a legitimate medication involved. So lots of liability for employers.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you went over the risk of inconsistent application of testing policies in a little bit. Is there anything that you can elaborate with inconsistent applications?
Speaker 2:Sure, let's say, the policy says we're going to test for cocaine, marijuana, amphetamines, cocaine, marijuana, amphetamines, pencyclodine, pcp, methamphetamine and opiates. And the employer one day says, well, we're going to test for benzodiazepines and fentanyl also, and that's not in your policy. And the person tests positive for benzodiazepines and you fire them. I think you're going to have a little bit of a problem there. So again, you've got to be very detailed. Another big issue is disclosure of potential medical information and private information.
Speaker 1:You mean like the test results?
Speaker 2:Well, the test results and maybe the fact that the test result was overturned because the person takes a particular medicine and the employer becomes aware of that medicine and one person in HR mentions it to another person in HR who mentions it to another person in HR. Now you may have an EEOC complaint. You may have a HIPAA violation.
Speaker 1:It goes on and on and now poor Sally's, known for taking Lipazor or Xanax.
Speaker 2:When she's prescribed to take it and maybe she can't function without it. Right, it's a medical necessity.
Speaker 1:Exactly, yeah, yeah. And now that poor girl or guy is labeled a pill popper, you know, and someone who can't handle anxiety.
Speaker 2:And that's happened. Yeah, yeah, that specifically has happened, that's crazy, yeah.
Speaker 1:so there's a lot of things to consider as an employer which begs to differ.
Speaker 2:You know, are these HR, you know these administrators who are hiring and firing and conducting the test. Are they qualified? They may or may not be. In a lot of cases they're not. So we call the person that administers the drug and alcohol testing program. We call them the designated employer representative, or DER for short. Okay, so they make the decisions when a positive comes back and different things like that, and they answer questions about the policy. They remove somebody from the truck if they have a positive on that person and typically what happens is, let's say, somebody was the DER for the company and they leave the company and then they go over to Sally and say you're going to be the DER from now on. What does Sally know about drug testing? What do you think she might know?
Speaker 1:Jesse, probably not that much. No, not that much.
Speaker 2:Okay Now, we do offer a national drug screening. We do offer DER training. We do offer a training course for someone who's going to have that position to kind of learn what they should be doing, what they shouldn't be doing. And it's not elaborate, it's not weeks and weeks of training, it's not thousands and thousands of dollars, it's a couple of hour training for a couple of hundred bucks and you would think that'd be a no-brainer for someone who's now taking that position over. They've never done that job before. What do I do? Okay, now, for DOT regulated companies, that job and that training becomes way, way, way important. But even for non-DOT employers, because of liabilities that can come up, that training and the DER knowing what they're doing is really kind of important.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I hope people do take advantage of the training because there does need to be someone. I feel like especially with a bigger office or especially with DOT employees, there should be somebody with that kind of training. I'm glad you guys offer that service as well. It sounds pertinent and it doesn't sound like something that people are going to take on their own. As far as continuing education or night class, it sounds like something that needs to be conducted through a professional administrator. You know someone like you guys who can get them qualified correctly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and besides the training, if we're the vendor providing them the drug testing program, we're experts in this, we live it every day and they can pick up the phone and ask us a question If they're going down to the local urgent care center and they're buying their drug testing through them. They probably know how to collect pee in a cup, sure, but they probably don't know a lot about the state laws or the federal laws, or about the best practices and employer liabilities involved right, because then there's that again falls back on your in-house.
Speaker 1:You know trained people to keep you out of liability. And if those people again, if a law changes the next day and all of a sudden everybody's exempt from marijuana testing and you don't know that and you wrongfully test, any amount of things could happen. So that's why I think it's critical that you have somebody who's trained and also an administrative team that makes sure they're caught up with all the new laws and policy changes and so forth.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a really great point. So again, we're trying to help these employers do the right thing and implement the policy, but also avoid liabilities and another catch-22s that could put them in trouble. Do state laws add complexity to employer liability? Did we go over that?
Speaker 2:Well, we kind of touched about it because there's over probably close to 1,000 state laws all around the country, and some don't really have a lot of teeth in them, but some do. And there's some states where you can't do instant testing. There's some states where you have to do testing, exactly like DOT. There's some state laws that say you can't terminate somebody on a first offense. You have to give them a second chance.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, the company needs to know about the state laws or have a professional team administrating their drug testing program that can help them with that. Again, if they're just buying their drug testing from the local doctor's office, they're not going to get that kind of advice and consultation.
Speaker 1:Well, not only that, but if you're like a one you know small business, you have 30 employees, maybe you can, as soon as the policy is written and you have that testing policy and it's just a pre-screen, right, an employment pre-screen. You don't do randoms, you're not in that kind of operation because you just don't have anybody to really administrate that. You don't have an HR department. You only got 30 employees, right, right. But for somebody who's working in multiple states, I feel like having a representative who is highly trained to you know, manage all of the different laws throughout your company's organizations and all the different employees under different jurisdictions, would really be something to you know try to cater with.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's much easier if you just operate in one state. Try to cater with yeah, it's much easier if you just operate in one state. It's when you operate cross-state lines in multiple states. And I just had a client recently that operates in all the states and they had us write a drug-free workplace comprehensive policy for them and they had us write a specific state addendum for every state so that it could be reviewed when they're HR people, let's say, in New York. In New York, you cannot test for marijuana for pre-employment. Oh wow, so you need to know that. Right.
Speaker 2:But in the rest of the country they are testing for marijuana.
Speaker 1:Fascinating, yeah. So how big the operation is, how many states, all the jurisdictions yeah, you kind of want somebody, even maybe beyond just you mentioned D DER.
Speaker 2:DER. So yeah, sometimes there's a team. But again, for a company like that, having a professional drug testing company is the key.
Speaker 1:Right, just a third party.
Speaker 2:Yep Exactly.
Speaker 1:That administrates that. Okay, that makes sense, because I mean some small business. You know, again, they don't have an HR department. They may have a staffing. Or you know again, another third party that helps them with recruiting employees. They may have a third party for most things Because, again, a small business isn't going to keep all of those uh positions uh available for a small operation, doesn't? Make sense to have a complete hr team yeah, you're 100 right.
Speaker 2:My wife was in hr for many years and she used to tell me when a company gets to 50 employees, they need an hr manager okay yep so that's, that's a good threshold, yeah yeah, okay, and when they get to 100 they need two h HR people.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, and every so often no. I get that Because I mean even 50 people, because there's more to an HR department than just the drug testing.
Speaker 2:It's sexual harassment. It's a lot more benefits 401Ks.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they have to monitor all these things for every employee. So that makes sense and that makes sense and that's a good ratio 50 to 1, as far as like a rule of thumb. Yep, what steps can employers take practically to avoid costly mistakes, besides getting a third party?
Speaker 2:Is there anything else that they should know? Yeah, so primarily is get the DER trained. Okay, Get a well-written drug-free workplace policy. Follow the policy. Free workplace policy. Follow the policy. Be aware of those state laws. Have a professional drug testing company to help them. Keep things confidential. Need-to-know basis A larger company, let's say. Maybe they have a 10-person HR department. Not everybody needs to know that Johnny tested positive. Keep that information confidential and don't let it leak out throughout the company 100% Perfect, all right, so that's more of employers.
Speaker 1:I think we've kind of beat that one to death with a short blunt stick. We have the term TPA is coming up with some of your staff and as well as some of the customers, and I just recently heard about the term TPA and we've received again some questions and again it's a third-party administrator. That's the acronym right. It stands for a third-party administrator and let's see we have a couple couple questions regarding that. Some services that a TPA provides to employers in managing drug testing programs. What services would a TPA provide?
Speaker 2:Sure, great question and I was glad to hear you be able to say TPA was a third-party administrator. You almost said that earlier in the last line of questions, right? So you were kind of on the right track there. So that's kind of what. Like my business, national Drug Screening, and a thousand other businesses across the US, that's kind of what we're referred to, referred to as a third-party administrator for drug testing programs. Okay, there's third-party administrators for insurance and health benefits and all those other things, but that's not us. We're a TPA for drug testing and sometimes we're actually called a consortium slash third party administrator or C the letter C slash TPA, because we also manage consortiums which are random testing programs for a group of employers, multiple employers with all of their employees in one random pool, and we call that random pool a consortium. So the services that a TPA offers would be we can write a policy, we can provide DER training, we can provide supervisor training for reasonable suspicion signs and symptoms. We did a previous episode on that with Tom. Fulmer.
Speaker 2:Okay, they can set up the drug testing. They can set it up for the company has one location. Let's say they're right here in Melbourne. They go around the corner to the edge for their drug testing collection site or they go up the street to LabCorp or up the street to Quest Diagnostics. Those specimens get collected, they get flown out to the LabCorp or the Quest Lab. The results then go to a medical review officer and then they come back to the employer.
Speaker 2:So there's a whole lot of moving parts there and so the TPA is coordinating all of that. That's kind of what we do. We coordinate all that and we do that with what we call electronic ordering of drug testing. So our employer client can, from their desktop, go into our web portal and I want to test John Smith and John Smith's zip code is 10040, which is a New York City zip code, and our system will show them. Well, there's a quest four miles away and there's a lab core one mile away. So they choose the lab core because it's closer. They send them in to give the specimen. The specimen goes to the lab, results come back through the medical review officer back into our portal, simultaneously reporting back to that employer.
Speaker 2:So, again a lot of moving parts there, but an employer through one vendor can test people anywhere in the United States where if they're only using a local let's say, occupational health care clinic that maybe doesn't have that robust type of technology.
Speaker 2:they can only test in that town that they're in. And we get calls all the time from employers that say, hey, we're in Columbus Ohio and we normally use XYZ occupational health testing, but we're hiring somebody in Denver and we want to test them before we move them here. Can you help us with that? Yeah, we can help you with that in Denver and we can help you the next time in Oklahoma City and we can also help you right there in Columbus Ohio, if you want, and put everything under one roof.
Speaker 1:Sounds like quite a as far as convenience factor it's hugely convenient.
Speaker 2:It's usually convenience.
Speaker 1:It's a one-stop shop.
Speaker 2:It's one bill for all the services. It's getting somebody who's professional and knowledgeable so that if you have a question you can call and you can get assistance.
Speaker 1:Roger, roger. So moving on from the third party administrator aspect, because it sounds like I mean there's a lot of benefits that having a TPA on standby, you know, that handles all of your drug testing needs would be almost like critical. It would almost be like a no brainer versus trying to.
Speaker 2:It helps you avoid liability.
Speaker 1:Right, right. And is having a TPA? Is there anything that maybe an insurance carrier would offer like as far as a benefit if you do employ a TPA?
Speaker 2:Well, insurance carriers in there's about 16 states in the country if you have a comprehensive program which you're not going to have, if you don't have a TPA, you're not going to have a comprehensive program. So in 16 states if you have a comprehensive program, you're eligible for that 5% discount on workers' comp. That all started here in Florida back in 1993 when we started our first business, but now it's grown to 16 other states so they recognize that.
Speaker 2:But it has to be a comprehensive program that includes a policy, but it has to be a comprehensive program that includes a policy, includes employee education, includes supervisor training, includes access to employee assistance programs where somebody can get help if they have a problem, and also then includes the drug testing.
Speaker 1:Wow, and you guys do all that, so you guys help people comply with that 5% discount 100%, 100%. Well, that's almost you know. It covers the cost of doing business with you. You know that savings can be critical.
Speaker 2:It can, it can. Often it is.
Speaker 1:If an employer is listening now and they're like well, how do I get a TPA? What are some things that they would look for?
Speaker 2:and ask like questions, as far as you know, trying to interview thementioned TPAs, but I would check references, I would check their Google reviews, I would check the Better Business Bureau and I would call some of their references okay and then make a business decision on you know, am I going to go with the cheapest or am I going to go with the one that's going to give me the least exposure to liability? The cheapest is not always the best.
Speaker 1:Right and normally isn't Right.
Speaker 2:And not that we're the most expensive because we're not Right. Okay, we offer fair, reasonable pricing, but we have to make a profit. That's why we're in business. That's why our clients are in business also. And if we're not charging enough money, then maybe we didn't renew our insurance this year and then if there's an issue where we were negligent and insurance is not covering it, that could be a big problem.
Speaker 1:Yeah, as they say, you could have two of the three right, you could have quality, you could have, right, you have quality. You could have the um, uh, quickness, you know the speed, um, and you could have the, the, the, the costs, right, but you can't have.
Speaker 2:uh, you have cheap and quick, but you can't have cheap, quick and good yeah, you'd have good, but you can have fair pricing and you can have accurate and fast, which is what we do.
Speaker 1:Okay, perfect. So all the best qualities under one house with you guys. Yeah, it seems like after what? 32 years or so on since you founded National Dress Screening?
Speaker 2:Yeah, just about. Yeah, it's been a long time.
Speaker 1:So you've seen it all and I'm sure you've helped many businesses. If you had to create a testimonial of all these businesses that maybe you saved them money or liability or any kind of litigation, I'm sure there's a lot of testimony that would say that you guys have helped many businesses remain compliant and also avoid any kind of really big liability issues or anything else.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we've worked with thousands of companies and we've given advice to hundreds and hundreds of companies that if they hadn't had our device they are advice they would have went down the wrong path and could have ended up in a lawsuit. And, yeah, a lot, a lot of savings. As a matter of fact, in 1999, I received a. My company received a grant from the United States Small Business Administration and the SBA. At the time there was a congressman, dale Coverdale, who really believed in drug-free workplace, who really believed in drug-free workplace, and he passed this law that said I want the SBA to give money out so that small businesses can create comprehensive drug-free workplace programs. So we applied for and won that grant and basically the government paid us to go give drug-free workplace programs to small businesses. So the small businesses didn't have to pay. Okay, we got paid from the government.
Speaker 2:Okay, as part of that, we had to provide a lot of reports and statistics about the companies we were helping and we really had to monetize the savings and show that each year so we could get the grant renewed. So we had some hard statistics on, you know, more productive employees, less absenteeism, less turnover all things that cost money. Savings on workers' comp, less theft in the workplace, and so these reports were very impressive because our clients, they cooperated with us on these surveys because they were getting these services for free and that was part of the agreement up front. You know, we're going to give you these services for free, but we're going to ask, we're going to do a survey later on and we're going to want answers from you. And they gave us the answers and they were quite impressive.
Speaker 1:Yeah, cause some of those grants can be really gave us the answers and they were quite impressive. Yeah, because some of those grants can be really arduous. I mean to maintain all the different data points that they want, because, you know, the money's not free, right? I mean, if it's coming from the government, that's taxpayer money and they want to make sure that that grant was utilized to its best and highest use, right? Yep, and they did, and we came through for them, I bet. I mean it sounds like not only that, but you probably got a really good intro into the industry, got already some, you know, alkalade and the referral business, I'm sure you know. Just continued from there.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I mean getting that grant in 99, we were six years in to the company.
Speaker 1:That was probably one of three defining moments in my career in drug testing to get me to say this is going to be my career for the next 25 years or so. Yeah, and going Yep, absolutely. So we've talked about these MROs, right, the medical review officers.
Speaker 2:We touch base on them. We don't get into much detail.
Speaker 1:And I know I think there was a couple episodes where we kind of hit it a little bit more. But let's just dive into what again some of the audiences is asking. One of the questions begins what are the employee's rights if they had a drug test and it was positive? So again, any employee rights after a positive drug test.
Speaker 2:So let me go back, just so that we you know for somebody new in the audience really defining what a medical review officer is first. Okay, so we call it an MRO. Medical review officer is a licensed physician Okay, that has additional training and gets qualified to be the medical review officer.
Speaker 2:So just because you're a doctor doesn't make you a drug testing MRO. You got to go to training. It's a three-day weekend course and then you have to do ongoing continuing education and every five years you have to redo the course. So MROs learn about medications and how they can cause positive results at the laboratory. So the laboratory gets a specimen and they test it and it's positive for something, let's say codeine. Well, they don't know if the person has a prescription for codeine and they don't want to know. The lab is just giving you the facts. This specimen had the metabolite of codeine in it when we tested it and that result doesn't go back to the employer as positive codeine. It first goes to the MRO and the MRO does a review and verification process and part of that process on a positive is they call the donor. Okay, so they might call you Jesse and say, Jesse, we got your drug test result back for ABC trucking that you applied for and you're positive for codeine. Is there any medical explanation for that? And you might say well, sure, doc, I have a prescription for codeine because I have chronic back pain. Right, that makes sense right Now. The MRO will say well, Jesse, I'm going to need your name, of your pharmacy, their phone number and your prescription number and I'm going to verify that what you just told me is true. And if it is true, I'm going to report this as a negative to your employer, because they don't need to know anything about your chronic back pain. Right, as long as you can do your job safely, Okay. But if what you're telling me is not true, your employer is going to get the result back as a positive.
Speaker 2:Now it's interesting that anytime somebody has a positive, they know about it before the employer. Most times they never mention it. Now some do. Some come back and say, hey, guess what, I was positive. They start telling everybody you know. So that's kind of the main core function of the MRO. Now, as far as your question about the employee's rights, okay, so let's say I'm the MRO and I call you up and say, Jesse, you're positive for cocaine. Any medical explanation?
Speaker 1:Well, no, there is none. Okay, there's no prescriptions that I know of.
Speaker 2:And then do you use cocaine? No, you don't have you ever. No. Well, it's kind of strange that you're positive for cocaine then, is it? Oops? You're positive for cocaine then, isn't it? Oops? Okay, so here's the situation, jesse If you believe that the lab made a mistake because you're saying you never used cocaine, you can have your specimen retested at another lab. That's what we call a challenge to my positive drug test result. Now, if the other lab comes up positive for cocaine also, jesse, guess what? Right? You used cocaine Right. And in 98% of the cases, when they send that specimen to the second lab, they're still positive.
Speaker 1:Right, because when you challenge, you're not giving a second specimen that could have been altered. It's the original specimen, correct, okay.
Speaker 2:They call that a split specimen retest or a retest of the original specimen. Now, what most guys will do, or gals, they'll come back to work and the boss calls them in and says, hey, we got your result, you're positive. And they say, hey, boss, you know me, I've never used drugs. This has got to be a mistake. I'll go back tomorrow. I'll prove it to you. There ain't no going back tomorrow, because what was in your system last week may not be in your system this week. So that's the challenge process for an applicant or an employee who gets a positive result and they say, no way, no, how, I've never used this drug. And then we tell them well, besides the fact that we're going to send it to another lab and you're not going to get to go pee in a cup again after you got clean, besides that you're going to pay for that additional testing and it costs about $200. And at least half the time they say never mind. Right.
Speaker 2:Because I think maybe they'd rather spend the $200 on something else. No kidding, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:And they know it's going to be the same result Exactly Now sometimes they're hedging their bet.
Speaker 2:They're gamblers and they're like well, maybe the FedEx truck will lose the specimen, I'll pay for it. Just to gamble on that Right.
Speaker 1:In which case it's still not changing the result of the specimen.
Speaker 2:No, you're still going to have to go back and in that case you would go back. They would allow you to go back, but it would be a direct observed collection where someone has to go in and watch you pee in the cup to make sure you're not bringing something in there with you.
Speaker 1:Gotcha. Yeah, because I guess there are some additives or something that help.
Speaker 2:There's all kinds of ways that people want to cheat the test. Just Google how do I beat the drug test? And you'll get about 3 million entries Okay.
Speaker 1:I guess it is a highly Googled subject matter. Absolutely so. The MRO we discovered is critically important. And is that something that? And is that something that, again, does every business need an MRO.
Speaker 2:Great question. So in the regulated world United States Department of Transportation, dot testing the MRO is required. In some states the MRO is required by state law. In some states they don't mention it. Okay, so an employer has a choice. Maybe, if somebody gives them a choice, I won't give them them a choice. They're going to do business with me. They're going to use an MRO. Okay, because if somebody sues over a drug test, they're suing everybody, including me. Okay, so we're using an MRO period.
Speaker 2:But I've come across companies, and I've actually come across lawsuits, where I was an expert witness and they didn't use an MRO. And they said, okay, you're positive for this and for this and for this, we're not going to hire you or we're going to fire you. And that person said, well, I got prescriptions for those. We don't know anything about your prescriptions. You're taking an illicit drugs. Or they say, give us copies of the prescriptions. Well, now they're kind of violating HIPAA laws and EEOC laws and all kinds of things. Okay, and now HR is trying to play it, trying to play an MRO. Hr is not a licensed physician. They haven't been trained to know what prescribed drugs cause. A positive for codeine or this drug or that drug okay. So it's kind of like not a good practice to not use an MRO and in two cases that I worked in as an expert witness, the fact that they didn't use an MRO is how they lost the case Right. So use an MRO, basically.
Speaker 1:How do?
Speaker 2:you find an MRO Right, so use an MRO. Basically, how do you find an MRO? Well, most third-party administrators are providing the MRO as part of their service.
Speaker 1:I see Okay.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:So it comes in a bundle. When you use a TPA, it comes in a package.
Speaker 2:We're providing you. Tpa is providing you. Where do you go for collection, the laboratory, the MRO and a software reporting system? Gotcha.
Speaker 1:That's a nice bundle. Absolutely yeah, and I think that may be it for the MRO. Anything else that maybe we didn't?
Speaker 2:No, that's a good nutshell. On the MRO I think a lot of people don't know about the MRO. Like, if you've only had negative drug tests in your life, you probably know nothing about the MRO. Right right in your case, yeah, except for that one time when you're a positive.
Speaker 1:How does? Okay, so this is another one from YouTube. And employer gets back a positive drug test result. Right, they sent the employee. It comes back positive. What does an employer do then?
Speaker 2:Okay, well, number one it depends on their policy. Okay, it also depends on whether they're DOT regulated or not.
Speaker 2:If they are DOT regulated, regardless of the policy, they have to remove the person from the safety sensitive position that they're in and they have to give them person from the safety sensitive position that they're in and they have to give them a list of substance abuse professionals and that person must contact a substance abuse professional or a SAP in order to get an evaluation and potential treatment and potential education and then a return evaluation and then they get released where they can come back to work in a DOT safety sensitive position. Now the company may have fired them and that's okay, but they still need all that to go to work for another company and that's part of the process. In the FMCSA clearinghouse, where they go on a prohibited list, they lose their CDL because the clearinghouse is integrated with the state motor vehicle licensing departments and so when they get released for return to duty from a substance abuse professional, commonly called a SAP, they come off that prohibited list. Now for the non-regulated companies they come off that prohibited list. Now for the non-regulated companies, the company should look at their policy. If their policy is zero tolerance, immediate termination. That's what should happen. There should be no listening to excuses like well, I was at a party and it's the only time I ever took one hit of one hit of a joint, or, you know, it was just a half a line of cocaine. I've never done it before. You don't know if that's true or not true, you've got to follow your policy Now.
Speaker 2:Sometimes the policy can be second chance, Okay, and so we're going to give you a pass on this one. But we are going to enter into a second chance agreement, or sometimes called a last chance agreement, and it's almost like what we call a PIP in the HR world, a performance improvement program that's going to say effective today, this is your last chance. If you test positive again, you will be immediately terminated. And, by the way, here are some other issues that we see going on and we need improvement in these issues also.
Speaker 2:You've been excessively late. That will not be tolerated. You've been excessively absent. That will not be tolerated. You've had some behavioral problems that will not be tolerated, tolerated. You've had some behavioral problems that will not be tolerated. All these are incorporated into the second chance agreement, and a violation of the second chance agreement or the last chance agreement can lead to immediate termination. That should all be in writing. It's all custom, based on that particular individual employee. It's not like a templated document and you follow it and hopefully that person follows it and they can, you know, be working again, be productive again, getting along with their coworkers again, and everything moves on and maybe, just maybe, you prevented that person from becoming an addict.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I mean by all means, hopefully. But it sounds like you're almost getting into like a second probation period, right? I mean most employees in the first 90 days it's probationary, Like you know. We're going to see if it works out, if you like it here, if we'd like you here, and then, typically, after you know the first 90 days, then you get all the benefits and everything else and then, for instance, if this is that policy where you get one chance to go back into that probationary period where it is just a right to work, kind of thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's very, very specific. You're going to outline in that second chance agreement the specific conditions of continued employment. Gotcha Well that's smart.
Speaker 1:employment Gotcha. Well, that's smart. The employer. Let's see another one is, and this is actually from a couple of employers is the employer required to fire an employee who tests positive? And again, with that anecdotal story from before where it's like you know, the guy was hesitant to fire the chef. But if it's, I guess, if it's policy right, I mean they have to.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's no legal requirements to fire anybody for a positive drug test on the federal DOT level. However, you have to remove them from driving the truck. So do you have another job for them? Maybe they're sweeping their warehouse, or maybe they're just suspended until they get through their substance abuse professional program For non-regulated. Also, there's no state law that says you have to fire somebody. As a matter of fact, there are some state laws that say you have to give a second chance, right, okay, so you do not have to terminate. But it's a good idea to make that decision up front in your comprehensive written drug-free workplace policy so that you're consistent and so that, when it happens, you know exactly what to do.
Speaker 1:Right, Because you wouldn't want two different standards right. Exactly A double standard, which is again another question. Can one person get fired and another gets to keep their job after a positive drug test, if it's the same substance that was found positive?
Speaker 2:Yeah, typically it could be different substances too, actually, unless you made a particular carve out in your policy. But you know, maybe you give a second chance on marijuana, but you know, but it has to be spelled out and written out. Yeah, you can't treat people differently because you know if you fire Mary and you don't fire Sally, and Mary's driving down the road and they see that billboard again, that M&M billboard and they call the number and they say, yeah, I think we got a case here. So no not a good idea.
Speaker 1:Right, Because if Mary, hypothetically, and Sally were both engaging in, you know, some recreational activities over the weekend one gets popped, the other doesn't it's going to look very suspicious. Exactly, yeah, exactly. That makes a lot of sense. What's a mistake that employers make after a positive result?
Speaker 2:They just let the person keep working and don't do anything about it.
Speaker 2:No second chance agreement, no termination. Don't follow the policy, don't have a policy. They let them go back for another test two days later. They say here's a big one. They say, well, in drug testing we have cutoff levels, the level of the metabolite of the drug that was in the urine when it got tested. And so the lab has standardized cutoff levels. So for marijuana, for example, the initial testing has a 50 milligram cutoff level for the THC metabolite okay. And if it's positive it goes to secondary confirmation testing at a 15 milligram level. Okay.
Speaker 2:So they get a positive. And the employee says I want to know what levels they were positive at. And I would say, well, for dot, you can't give out those levels, okay, the lab won't release them. A positive is a positive is a positive, okay. So if you're positive, okay. It doesn't matter what the level was, because the employer thinks that the level might justify the fact that they're claiming they only smoked one hit of a joint one time. The level doesn't tell us that. It doesn't tell us when they used it, doesn't tell us how they used it, doesn't tell us whether it was good shit or bad shit. It doesn't tell us any of was good shit or bad shit, okay yeah.
Speaker 2:It doesn't tell us any of that, because everybody's metabolism is different, everybody's different weights, male and female. What did you eat today? What did you drink today? What drugs did you take yesterday? All the level tells us is that you're positive for that drug. So what difference does the level mean? Okay, they want to say, well, well, maybe they only smoked a little bit. Well, the level doesn't tell you that right.
Speaker 1:So and that sounds that's a big mistake employers make. I feel like that's a lot of um. That would be a really comprehensive test if it were to not only give a positive result but an also estimated amount of not available, not even available yeah, I was going to say like not even available. That'd be, that'd be a magical uh science, uh discovery there, if they, if you could do that.
Speaker 2:I used to do that when I was 13 with my chemistry stat and my little sister was my experimental person. That's great I still get teased about that. Now we know why she is the way she is today.
Speaker 1:Oh no, Blessings for poor Joe's sister. Any employees' rights after a positive test.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we talked about that, the challenge and the split specimen retest, that's right, or the original specimen retest. That would be the challenge opportunity.
Speaker 1:Perfect, okay, so that's really the only right.
Speaker 2:Yep, yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:I guess. Well, there could be issues at the point of collection, but I mean that would be. There are cases where maybe the collector wasn't trained, they didn't do it properly, they left the urine out exposed with other people around, and there's, it could be shown that there's a possibility that somebody could have added something to that urine, and so that that's a process that goes through a lawsuit and it goes through documentation, it goes through deposition, it goes through expert witness, which I participate in Right A lot involved. Normally that's not what happened, but there have been some cases where it did happen.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think that's why most nurses or anybody who's administering a drug test in my experience you walk out, you got the cup, they have the rubber gloves, they have a sticker and a cap and they take that sample right in front of you, they twist it down, they put the sticker over the cap and the sample and it's initialed right there in front of you and you both sign off that nobody tampered with it and it's a tamper-free thing. And yeah, you just pretty much said, yeah, wow, you were paying attention. I pay attention to a lot of things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, so that's all part of what we call the custody and control process, Right? Both the sealing of the specimen in the donor's presence not allowing, like if the collector is walking away from the restroom and you're walking behind that collector, well, they could be sprinkling something into your urine. You both should have visibility of your open container of urine until it gets sealed up and you initial that it was sealed and then, like you mentioned, you sign the paperwork that says you witnessed all of this Right.
Speaker 2:And those people have to be trained and they have to be qualified. So the first thing in a case, if we could prove that they weren't trained, we got a pretty good shot at that case, right, okay, we got a pretty good shot at that case Right, okay, have you seen a lot of cases that benefit? The employee, occasionally not a lot, but occasionally you have a collector that did a terrible job and we don't see the training that was done right or not done at all.
Speaker 1:And there are just some things in the process that either a judge or a jury agrees with the employees attorneys that something could have gone wrong at the collection site, right, yeah, so there's some what they call that negligible opportunities or whatnot, you know where.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's a presumption that something may happen and the court goes along with it.
Speaker 1:Gotcha All right, Well can you believe it's already been like 70 minutes.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're going over to the hour, so we're just going to do like a rapid fire now. So do you have any interesting or funny stories about drug testing events? That's another question that came through YouTube.
Speaker 2:Yeah, hard to kind of remember, but there are some, you know. You get the excuses as to why someone was positive. Well, I didn't use any drugs, but my girlfriend uses cocaine or my boyfriend smokes pot, so you get those excuses.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, how did the metabolite digest through your system. If that's what happened, okay, you get the. I was at a concert, everybody was smoking pot, but I'm the only one. That wasn't Right. Okay, so it had to be secondhand smoke. Well, I mentioned those cutoff levels a few minutes ago. I mean, you could actually have smoked a little bit of a joint and come out negative because you didn't beat those cutoff levels. So the cutoff levels are actually designed particularly for marijuana, but also for over-the-counter medications. They're designed to rule out secondhand smoke. And, a matter of fact, they've done studies where they've put six people in a room a small room, maybe 100 square feet and four of those people smoked pot for three hours and the other two people didn't, and they could never get the other two people to test positive. And that's how they determined those cutoff levels.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:So that secondhand smoke is not a valid excuse, right? The other one is they ate a poppy seed bagel. Well, you'd have to eat 25 poppy seed bagels. Okay, because the cutoff level a lot has to do with the cutoff level for opiates, particularly morphine is 2,000, okay, so it's a very high cutoff level and it's highly unlikely. It's a very high cutoff level and it's highly unlikely, unless you had a jar of poppy seeds and you were gulping them down. And it's interesting because there was an episode of Seinfeld where Elaine had been eating poppy seed bagels and she had to go for a drug test and she was all scared that she was going to be positive. And every time they rerun that episode we get a rash of people. Well, I ate poppy seeds. That's why I'm positive for marijuana. Well, poppy seeds has nothing to do with marijuana. It has to do potentially with morphine, but nothing to do with marijuana or methamphetamine, because we get that excuse also.
Speaker 1:The bagel made me test positive for meth.
Speaker 2:A lot of the crazy things come from donors that test positive. But we also talked about collectors and this is not often. But we have found collectors that absolutely have no idea of what they're doing. They don't follow the proper chain of custody. We've had collectors send in. You know. They put the specimens in a little bag, they put the custody and control form in a little bag and they seal it up and they ship it to the lab. And the lab comes back and says this is a fatal flaw, we can't test it, we're canceling this test. There were no specimens in the bag. And go back to the collector and say you had a fatal flaw that requires you to actually be retrained. And they say why I put the specimens in the bag? I put them in the bag every single time. That's impossible. That lab has no idea where they're talking about. They're wrong. Call up the lab, they'll collect, says they put it in the bag. Lab sends us back a picture sealed plastic bag, no specimens in it.
Speaker 2:Fascinating they never opened it, but they took a picture, Okay. So they forgot to put the specimens in the bag. Alternatively, sometimes they forget to put the form in the bag. Same thing. Lab comes back and says hey, there's no form in the bag, so we don't know whose. This is Right, Okay. And the collector says I put the form in the bag. I put it in the bag every single time. I've been doing this for 20 years. Okay, Lap sends back a picture sealed bag, no paperwork in the bag. Okay, there it is.
Speaker 2:So we do find collectors that have sometimes horrific bad practices.
Speaker 1:Now is there an auditing or or, like you know, restaurants, you know they get inspections. Does that apply for some of these collection institutes?
Speaker 2:There is, but it's not really like widespread Like. Dot agencies will. If they're auditing an employer. As part of that process, they'll go audit a collection facility, but it's not like every collection facility gets audited.
Speaker 2:If there's a situation where, let's say, there's a truck crash and people die and there's an investigation and drugs were involved, they might go back and audit the collection facility also. But for the most part it's self-policing. And some organizations do a great job. They pay attention to their training and the training is, you know, good training. I did a training yesterday in Raleigh, north Carolina, and we give a pre-training. We have them read a comprehensive manual which takes about two hours to read. We have them watch about an hour and a half video and then I spend seven hours with them going over the training and going over practice collections, what we call mock collections. So to get qualified to be a collector is not just fill out a little piece of paper and now you're a collector. It's a sophisticated process. Oh, other crazy stories. So many people.
Speaker 2:I never used this cocaine in my life but I'm positive for it. You know they always start where they call me to be an expert witness and first off, I really will only talk to the attorney, okay, cause that's who's going to be hiring me, right? But this, this person hasn't even called an attorney yet. You know, they just Googled expert witness for drug testing and they think I'm going to, I'm going to be able to call the judge and get them out of this. Okay, um, and so they're. They're telling me about you know. You know, I tested positive for cocaine. I haven't used cocaine. It's impossible. And I always say like, okay, let me ask a question have you ever used cocaine? Well, yeah, back in the day I used it. Well, that probably means you may have used it. You know, more recently also. People bring in other people's urine. They bring in their dog's urine. They bring in their cat's urine, they bring in their dog's urine.
Speaker 1:They bring in their cat's urine.
Speaker 2:They bring in their baby's urine. They bring in synthetic urine that they could buy somewhere.
Speaker 1:But see, that conjures up a couple of thoughts, though. I mean, the lab's got to differentiate from a baby's hormones from an adult's, or even a canine or felines.
Speaker 2:Well, if it's real human urine, they're not testing DNA or anything. Okay, so they're not going to know the difference. If it's real human urine, oh okay. If it's something other than real human urine, based on creatinine levels and specific gravity levels, they can tell. This is substituted, this is something else. Okay, this is not consistent with normal human urine, right, okay.
Speaker 2:So the last story to bring up is interesting. So in drug testing, you go, you know, you go to the clinic or the facility and you're supposed to pee in the cup, right, yeah. So you facility and you're supposed to pee in a cup, right, yeah. So you go there and you're supposed to provide 45 milliliters of specimen for a DOT test, 30 milliliters for a non-DOT test, and you go in the bathroom and you pee and you got just a couple of drops, okay. And you come out and they say, oh, I guess you got a shy bladder. Okay. And you come out and they say, oh, I guess you got a shy bladder, right, okay.
Speaker 2:So we go into what we call as a trained collector. You know what the shy bladder process is. The shy bladder process is. I'm going to give you up to 40 ounces of water spread out reasonably over the next three hours and you have up to three hours to provide me a sufficient specimen. Now, if you provide the sufficient specimen 20 minutes later, that's fine, you go home. But if you don't provide it within three hours, you go home after the three hours and it's either a refusal or you have to go for a medical evaluation to find out if there is a medical reason why you can't void a urine specimen within three hours, when most human beings can void a urine specimen within three hours. As a matter of fact, we've got to wrap this up soon because I've got to void a urine specimen. Okay, now you're also instructed that you cannot leave the facility. Yeah, because if you leave the facility, well, you could go out and you could have, you know, texted your friend and said, hey, bring me some fake urine, or do this, or can't leave the facility. If you leave, it's going to be considered a refusal.
Speaker 2:Now some people get up and leave and then the collector will notify the employer and the employer should call that a refusal. The collector will notify the employer and the employer should call that a refusal. Sometimes they don't, because they buy the employee's story that they had to leave for some reason, or the collector told them to leave or some other BS. But in one particular case, a guy got up and left and he got fired. A guy got up and left and he got fired. And he came back and he said you know the reason I left. You know he was trying to change their mind about firing him, right? And he said the reason I left is I got a text and my six-year-old son got hit by a car and he was on the way to the emergency room and any parent would say I got to go, I go check on my kid, right. So that's a logical reason why you wouldn't call that a refusal.
Speaker 2:However, you might want to check it out, because once they checked it out, none of that ever happened. It was all made up. There was no record of a hospital visit, an emergency visit, a car accident. It was totally, 100% a made up story, gotcha. So employers need to be cautioned. I always say to people, even in sales. I say to people are you selling the popcorn or are you buying the popcorn? Okay, are you buying their popcorn or are you buying their story? Without verification, trust, but verify, right. So this was a lot of fun, jesse.
Speaker 2:Those are some of the stories we're going to have Tom Fulmer on in the future, because he's got a whole bunch of other stories. Oh, I'm sure I wanted to mention a couple of upcoming episodes Before I do that. Ring the bell, subscribe, hit like, tell your friends, tell your colleagues, If you like this, promote us. Got that right, Jesse.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, 100%. So next week we're going to have Bill Currant as our guest. Bill, like me and he's probably a little bit above me he's one of the leading experts in the United States on workplace drug testing. Okay, and I met Bill 30 years ago and I mentioned earlier there's about three defining moments that told me that this drug testing business was going to be my career. Okay, because I could have gone and done something else if I didn't like it or you know, or someone bought it and I didn't want to stay in it. But one of those defining moments was that I was at an industry conference about 30 years ago and the industry was in its infancy. Okay, the conference had about 75 attendees. These days, at our industry annual conferences, we have 700 attendees, so you can see how far this industry has grown.
Speaker 2:But at the time, bill was involved with drug testing and worked for the US Chamber of Commerce and involved in drug-free workplace programs and he was one of the speakers at the conference and he sounded really smart and really intelligent and he talked about why drug testing, why should employers do drug testing and he had just published a book called why Drug Testing and he had a handful of copies. And he said you know I'm going to ask a few questions, okay, and if you get the answer right, you get a copy of my book. So he asked a question and I raised my hand and other people I didn't get picked. And he asked the next question. I didn't get picked. I never got picked Five questions.
Speaker 2:So when he got done I went up to him and I shook his hand and I said said hey, bill, I'm Joe Riley. I'm fairly new in the drug testing industry, really enjoyed your presentation. It really motivated me, okay. And um, I didn't get one of your books, but I see you have like one or two more right there. Any chance I could get one. And he handed me the book. So I was really happy about that. But Bill became a mentor of mine and that presentation from Bill told me mentor of mine. And that presentation from Bill told me this is serious business here, this drug testing business, and this is going to grow and grow and grow and Bill and I have been friends and colleagues and he's been a mentor for 30 years and we're going to have the honor, jesse, of having Bill with us next week or two weeks for the podcast in two weeks, so that's really really exciting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, we're looking forward to that.
Speaker 2:And then the other person that's going to come in two weeks later is Tony Thompson from my office, and Tony heads up our clearinghouseservicescom. So we're going to spend the entire episode talking about the FMCSA Clearinghouse and how it works and how we can help employers, how we can help drivers getting off the prohibited list, getting registered. Employers are required to run queries every year on their drivers, and so we're going to spend a full episode on the Clearinghouse. So the next two episodes Bill Current from Current Consulting Group that's his current job as the CEO of a consulting group in the drug testing industry and then two weeks later, we're going to have Tony Thompson from clearinghouseservicescom, and Tony is an expert. She does a great job helping people with all things FMCSA Clearinghouse.
Speaker 1:Excellent. Well, definitely a few more episodes to look forward to.
Speaker 2:And that's our sponsor for today also. That's right, and they'll sponsor that episode also Next week with Bill. His company will be the sponsor.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's Current Consulting Group. Yeah.
Speaker 2:CCG Current Consulting Group. Ccg, CCG got it, so I look forward to that. We thank our sponsor for this week ClearinghouseServicescom. And with that, Jesse, I'll let you close it out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, once again, big shout-out to ClearinghouseServicescom. Once again, help any employers comply with the requirements of the Clearinghouse rule. Membership services are available for unlimited consultations with responsibilities for the Clearinghouse. We're going to hear a lot more about that when Tony comes to the studio. So, yeah, looking forward to that episode and, as always, keep those questions coming. We don't ignore those questions and comments under the YouTube videos. So we're so glad that you guys are engaging. Keep them coming. We'd love to go ahead and acknowledge all those questions and comments right here on the podcast. So until next time, yeah, please ring that bell, press, subscribe and, yeah, keep engaging with us. Share the content that you find is relevant to other people in the industry, and I hope this episode cleared up a lot of different things. We went over a lot of fun topics A lot of topics.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so until next time, god bless, and we'll see you on the other side.
Speaker 2:Bye guys, that's great. Thanks, Jesse.