21: How to Choose Supplements You Can Actually Trust, with Leah Habjan

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You've probably stood in a supplement aisle, or scrolled past an influencer ad, and thought, I have no idea if any of this actually works. Maybe you've spent real money on things that did nothing. Maybe your doctor shrugged when you asked. That confusion is not a personal failing. It's the supplement industry doing exactly what an under-regulated industry tends to do, and today we're pulling back the curtain on all of it.

In this conversation, I sit down with Leah Habjan, a nutraceutical industry educator with OrthoMolecular Products, someone I genuinely trust because she leads with research, not a sales pitch. We talk about what separates a quality nutraceutical from a generic supplement, how to read a label without a science degree, and why the phrase "expensive urine" only applies when the product wasn't worth taking in the first place.

What You'll Learn in This Episode:

• Not all supplements are created equal, and the difference between a dietary supplement and a professional nutraceutical comes down to formulation quality, therapeutic dosing, and whether the company has actually done the research to back what's in the bottle.
• You can identify a trustworthy supplement company without being a scientist. Look for products that link to clinical references, not just marketing claims, and watch for proprietary blends that hide what's actually in them and at what dose.
• Some ingredients now sold as supplements were once available only as prescriptions, and understanding that history changes how you think about what functional medicine has access to.
• The form of a nutrient matters as much as the nutrient itself. If you're a poor methylator, taking a B vitamin that isn't in its methylated form may do very little, no matter how reputable the brand looks on the outside.
• Finding someone you trust to help navigate supplement quality, whether that's a functional medicine physician, a knowledgeable health coach, or a credentialed industry professional, is one of the most protective things you can do for your health and your wallet.

Leah Habjan is a nutraceutical industry educator with OrthoMolecular Products whose passion for health started long before her career did. Raised by a mom who was reading about food quality and organic sourcing decades before it was mainstream, Leah went on to study biology with the goal of becoming a healthcare provider, and eventually found her place at the intersection of clinical nutrition and physician education. 

Key Insights:

One of the most important things Leah shared in this conversation is that nutraceuticals are a subset of dietary supplements, but not every supplement qualifies. A true nutraceutical is formulated with therapeutic intent, meaning the doses actually align with clinical research, the raw materials are verified for quality, and the company can show its work. If a product's website can't point you to peer-reviewed references, that tells you something.

We also talked about what happens when manufacturing standards slip, and it happens more than people realize. Leah has watched companies that once held themselves to high standards quietly shift their formulations after rapid growth, cutting corners on raw material quality in ways that aren't visible on the label. One example she gave hit home for me: switching from methylfolate to folic acid in a B-complex formula. 

Connect With Leah Habjan: IG: @newenglandhealthy  

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Disclaimer: This podcast is for educational purposes only.  Information discussed is not intended for diagnosis, curing, or prevention of any disease and is not intended to replace advice given by a licensed healthcare practitioner. This podcast and its guests may have direct or indirect financial interests associated with products mentioned.

Transcript

Opening And Podcast Mission

SPEAKER_02 0:09

I'm Dr. Mark Sue and welcome to the Functional Medicine Reality Podcast. Join me and our community weekly as we bring you unfiltered health from inflammation to longevity. Real stories, real people, real solutions. Experience real life health changes from both patients and practitioners. And learn how to turn cutting-edge information into real results in your own life so you can feel better, live longer, live healthier, and be confident and clear in your healthcare choices. Let's get real and get results.

Dr. Mark Su 0:41

Welcome again to the Functional Medicine Reality Podcast. I'm Dr. Mark Sue. This is Leah Habgen, and we are here today to continue our mission on helping more people get better faster. Our goal through the podcast is to help people create more clarity in their lives, with especially with all the noise and all the information that's coming at us, millions seconds a minute and getting faster and faster with AI and podcasts and all the other social media stuff that yes, we are doing here right in front of you. Seemingly paradoxically, but we're here to help you create some clarity so that you can live your best life in health, including physical, mental, and emotional. And some of that is to help us make better decisions by helping us reduce less waste in our time, money, and effort. So let me just cut to the chase here. Today we're gonna be speaking together with Leah Habgen. She is in the nutraceutical industry. We're gonna talk a little bit about the definition differences. I don't know if I've ever talked about that with anybody, Leah, but differences between nutraceuticals and supplements as terms, all right? But she's been working in this industry for about seven years. She's really passionate about quality nutrition and health, starting at a really young age. A lot of it's based on her personal life experiences and her upbringing from her parents. Her family's always had a real emphasis, her family of origin has always had a real emphasis on food quality, taking care of their bodies, and being very health-minded in a sort of um progressive way for the age and year. So she was inspired to study biology in college. Um, she that was the origins of what led her to where she is today. She is employed by a supplement company or nutrient physical company called Orthomolecular, but she's experienced her own functional medicine journey, which we may tap into a bit today, and she's uh been a patient receiving care just as much as anybody else, if not more so. So she's had a lot of insights on that journey from patient perspective as well as through her workspace, her work position, and she interacts with clinicians all the time. That's that's her the name of the game for her work. So she said that yeah, her she one of her missions in life is um to add value in every conversation she has, taking an educational approach, meeting with um physicians in particular, clinicians, but uh including friends and family no doubt, but she's not patient-facing, working directly with patients. So I wanna um I wanna preclude one more piece before we get started

Setting Boundaries Around Industry Bias

Dr. Mark Su 3:00

here, Leah. Um why did uh for those who know me well, I'm very, very careful about bias within myself, and I'm always on the lookout for bias from others. We covered that in some rather great detail in the podcast recording with Dr. George Papanicclo, best friend and uh first first boss colleague who works at Mark Hyman's Ultra Wellness Center. So we won't re-visit all that, but it's to say we're having a conversation here today between you and you and I, Leah, about supplements, and you work for the supplement industry. All right. So I'm just gonna say from my end, and then I'll let you kind of um put in your two cents. The reason we're having this conversation isn't to sell anything, all right? This is not a an intention at all, directly or indirectly, passively, passive aggressively, nuanced, whatever. There's no there's no intention here to sell, and there's not even an intention to necessarily highlight orthomolecular. But I came to you asking about having this conversation because I find you to be extremely balanced, extremely mindful, extremely thoughtful, and extremely research-based. All right. In our practice, we don't meet with big pharma reps. Not because we don't want to, it's just I I'm sorry, not because it's an anti-dogma kind of thing. Um it's we just don't find a lot of value in it per se. Okay, we don't find the need. We do meet with supplement and lab vendors and reps regularly. And so we have a reasonable experience over, especially over years, of what that interaction looks like. And certainly there um there is it's it's it is business, right? It is business. That's that's the reality of it. So but our experience with you in particular is that we learn so much talking with you, and we kind of it's just major geek out sessions. Okay. I think we get the sense, uh, you know, it doesn't have to be we I get the sense that it's kind of similar, it goes both ways. But nonetheless, the the goal here today is to talk kind of broad scale, high level about how we as clinicians uh think through the supplement world. Might or might not touch on biases, but I want to give people a sense of yourself as a representative, if you will, of the supplement industry and of your company as well, because I find you to be so integral. And I think that especially if there are folks who are huge skeptics or justifiably at times intermittent skeptics, because we're all wondering how much we're just being presented messaging to buy something, okay, whether it's media and emails and email blasts and everything else, okay, social media influencers, et cetera, it's a it's a justifiable, it's a justifiable uh perspective that people have developed, whether intentionally or not, regardless of their actual inherent personality. So enough being said, let me just shift the mic to you and let you uh put in a couple two cents on this pre-qualifier and then we can get going here.

SPEAKER_00 5:46

Sure. The first thing I'll note is while I do represent Ortho molecular, the thoughts and opinions I'll be sharing today are my own and not a reflection of Ortho or their thoughts or opinions as an organization. Although some things may align, it's everything that I feel about the industry. And I just want to be clear that I'm approaching this without bias as well. Um just because I think that's really important. Um, and I do appreciate that you recognize that in the conversations I have with uh, you know, you as a physician, your team. I try to bring that actually with a lot of my conversations. I just approach a lot of my meetings with uh really a focus and emphasis on education, education on raw materials, and really just presenting evidence and information. And I think, you know, the company I represent, we do a really wonderful job of formulation, but there's a lot of really great companies out there as well that put thought into what they put together. And I'm not one that's ashamed to admit it. Um it's a pretty robust industry. Um, but I did want to reiterate that my thoughts and opinions are my own today. And like I said, I do approach my conversations with as little of bias. Of course, I'm always gonna be biased towards what I do for a living because I love what I do and I love the company that I work for. Um, but you know, there's there's a line I think that's appropriate to cross and I'm mindful of it.

Dr. Mark Su 6:59

Yeah, you've always been really, really professional. You know, we have mutual colleagues like in your industry space, right? And uh and I've I've I've observed that collegial risk not just respect, but at times even just outright collaboration, you know, like with your own sort of quote unquote competitors, which is not uh that's not common. Okay. I that the and I s and I observed that to be genuine, you know, and true. So again, it's just my compliments to you and uh respect for you and why in part why I wanted to invite you to, you know, have this dialogue to share with others. And then I lastly will just say, um, yeah, there's been other pieces of content that we've put out even outside the podcast where I've alluded to roughly three companies in my mind from my observations that put a lot of work and presenting as solid data as we have behind the products, you know, research and et cetera. And um, and as I've said before, and I'll say again here, orthomolecular is one of those companies. I'm open to learning more about other companies and such as we go along, but orthomolecular has historically always been one of those three that I just have the most trust in because um you guys are so intentional and effortful on having rationale or studies and data as much as we can on the products you guys put forth.

SPEAKER_00 8:14

I appreciate that you see that. Yeah, we've got a wonderful team actually of just formulators, physicians on staff as well that do a really great job with input. We even will accept feedback from like clinicians like yourself throughout the country, which I think is important when you're looking to be intentional and you know, focused and well researched before launching something. So I appreciate that you see that because I see it as well.

Leah’s Health Journey And Career Pivot

Dr. Mark Su 8:37

So let's show let's just jump right in. Um, you know, maybe starting off perhaps uh more so with yourself if you're willing, uh, you know, on some level, you you I I kind of prefaced with a little bit of your professional journey, you know, through school and such, but um mentioned your upbringing as we've talked about before on a you know a side conversation. Do you care to share a little bit about your any about your personal story for the sake of um your health journey, for the sake of that you're not you're you're speaking from a place of personal experience, and I'm sure there's gonna be a lot of people who are listening to this who watching this who relate with various parts of your story.

SPEAKER_00 9:15

Yeah, yeah, I'm more than happy to share. So, you know, obviously, but what I do now is I represent a nutraceutical company, but before that, you know, I've got a full whole history of of who I was and who I still am separate from that. And I think it really relates to growing up and, you know, my my family, my upbringing. I know you alluded to that when you were introducing me. And growing up, you know, I had like what I would consider the OG crunchy mom. Um, you know, she was in the library, literally reading books, doing research to basically make sure that my brother and I were eating well as children so that we could develop well and to be healthy adults. And it was quite interesting at a time where, you know, you weren't talking about sugar intake with children and and lack of focus or ADD at a time where probably not a lot of people were concerned about food additives. She was really concerned about that. I know I had shared with you in the past, Mark, that uh, you know, I wasn't allowed to eat sugar until I was five years old or processed sugar, um, nor was I allowed to eat beef or anything sourced from cow because my mom was concerned of mad cow disease. When I was a kid, we used to have these crates of organic, or I guess what you consider organic milk delivered at our house from a local farm because my parents were so concerned about the hormones being put into, you know, the cows that were then we were drinking their milk. Same thing with like all the poultry we would consume as children. So my parents were very intentional raising us um to be very healthy.

Dr. Mark Su 10:39

And so having an upbringing. What kind of time period are we talking about? What kind of years?

SPEAKER_00 10:44

Um so probably like mid-90s to the early 2000s is really where my upbringing was. And so that's like, you know, as as things were barely starting, like people were not aware of food additives at that time, I really feel. And that's when I I feel like a lot of things started to change with the food industry. And to have someone who was really hyper-focused on that, I think helped me in my development. Um although, you know, growing up, I still had health issues. I had a ton of allergies, I was constantly getting ear infections, constantly on antibiotics. And I remember my mom like actually arguing with my pediatrician like, can we figure out why she keeps getting sick? Because like I shouldn't have to take my kid to the doctor for another ear infection after ear infection. Like, this has to be doing something to her. And so to have someone care that much, not really just like accept that something was happening to their child, but want to do something about it was remarkable. Um, and that's really like that whole foundation catapulted me into who I am today. You know, I studied biology in college, always with the intention that I wanted to be a healthcare provider. Um, I actually wanted to go to PA school. My brother is a nurse or was a nurse for a long time. And I kind of thought being a PA would be, you know, being a step above him. I'm very competitive.

Dr. Mark Su 11:57

So are you older or younger?

SPEAKER_00 11:59

What's that?

Dr. Mark Su 12:00

Are you older or younger than your brother?

SPEAKER_00 12:01

I'm younger.

Dr. Mark Su 12:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 12:03

Well, he he's he was a nurse. He finished his, you know, active nurse. I was like, I'm gonna one up him. I'm gonna be a PA. And so I went through, you know, all the prerequisites. I was getting ready to basically it was my junior year, actually, where I was ready to start applying to PA school. And I'm in a lab, I'd already done anatomy and physiology, I'd seen the body hands-on. But in anatomy, when you're looking at a cadaver, you're not looking at like the blood flowing out of them. And I just came across in a lab where we're exposed to blood, flowing blood. I nearly passed out and got extremely sick. And I was like, holy cow, this is crazy. And so the um professor for that lab I was in, you know, he was actually my advisor. So he pulls me aside and he's like, hey, you know what? If you can't handle blood, I don't know if becoming a PA is a good idea for you because you're gonna see a lot of blood if you decide to be a hands-on like healthcare provider. And I didn't know anything about naturopathic medicine or anything like that at the time. So I was like, okay, well, I need to shift my focus. And at that point, I had about a semester and a half left of college. So I was like, shoot, I have to figure this out. Um, and so I did, you know, an internship at a healthcare system in the Chicago suburbs and learned a lot about the back end of healthcare. And I was like, maybe I don't really want to be part of that, but I can't be hands-on as a physician. What's that middle ground? And um, that's ultimately how I found ortho. Um, I feel like, you know, my job in the nutraceutical world is like really working with physicians like yourself, where, you know, I get to connect on my upbringing, my, you know, my family history, my own personal health history.

SPEAKER_01 13:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:30

And bring that forward to kind of, you know, what we offer. And whether it's nutraceuticals or talking about labs that you can run. I know I've I've worked with many lab reps that are local to New England or beyond and just being able to connect a lot of things. And like you were saying before, it's like fun to meet with physicians who have really enriching conversations. Um, through that full journey, it's gotten me to where I am today. And um, you know, through the process, I've had continued health issues, but I'm very blessed to be in this industry, to be connected with so many different physicians that are super knowledgeable and can really, you know, help provide guidance. Although I do have my own uh primary care physician who is a functional medicine provider. Um, it's always great to get input because I feel like the more information from experts, uh, the better people can become. So that's like the benefit of podcasts like this. And although it can be overwhelming for some, I appreciate it. While I'm doing even my own research to uh to uncover things. So it's the endless, the endless pursuit of information.

Dr. Mark Su 14:30

Yeah, I mean, you're definitely a um a researcher, and I won't label put on the label of data junkie, but you know, some people I know I have friends and colleagues who would call themselves data junkies, and it's it seems like you guys are kind of similar in a similar boat as with as many of us are actually. So yeah, that's a that is a challenge, and we can come back to that as far as like, you know, information semi-overload or overload outright.

Nutraceuticals Versus Supplements Defined

Dr. Mark Su 14:53

So okay, let's jump into um, you know, I alluded to earlier the question of uh terminologies, right? So this is literally like raw unscripted. I've never asked, I don't think I've ever asked anybody after all these years how they define how they differentiate the terms supplements and nutraceuticals. So what is your what's your response to that? What what's the difference is? How do you define one versus the other, or are they kind of synonymous?

SPEAKER_00 15:13

So I think that a nutraceutical is a type of a dietary supplement, but not every dietary supplement is a nutraceutical. And the way I think about that is a nutraceutical is kind of a blend between nutrition and what we would be perceiving as a natural version of a pharmaceutical. And what I mean by that is, you know, standardized clinically dosed natural products that are being researched for a specific purpose. Um and although supplements cannot diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease, as every disclaimer shows, there is, you know, a ton of evidence to support that you can use dietary supplements to support individuals who have various forms of diseases, illnesses, conditions, et cetera. And so when we look at what defines a nutraceutical versus a dietary supplement, I would say nutraceuticals are way more thought out from a formulation standpoint. Um, you'll typically find them to be therapeutically dosed and well-researched, raw materials versus a dietary supplement can range from therapeutic to non-therapeutic. Um, and it really just depends on, you know, what you're looking for in a product. But I would again say a nutraceutical is probably more of a scientifically formulated version of a dietary supplement. But again, not every dietary supplement could be considered a nutraceutical.

Dr. Mark Su 16:30

Okay. So yeah, nutraceuticals as the I mean, in my mind, the the term is more professional sounding, you know, more technical sounding. So you're sort of supporting that by saying, yeah, these are typically first of all, do you think there's a industry level consensus definition around those? I've never asked anybody that either.

SPEAKER_00 16:47

So I would say from industry level, nutraceuticals fall under probably the category of practitioner recommended or physician grade dietary supplements, as simply as I can put it, or medical grade dietary supplements. And I think that's not even a regulated term.

SPEAKER_01 17:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:05

But I would say anything that falls under something that is clinically researched or at least formulated raw materials that are clinically researched put into a product, that would be a more standard definition. But there's no what I would consider working standard definition that everyone can utilize and say this is what a nutraceutical is.

Dr. Mark Su 17:25

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So it's probably something that was coined by somebody and as obviously pharmaceutical, nutraceutical, so something more natural and whatever. But so you think of it and as as do I, I think I hear you saying it's it's a subset of the supplements as a category. And they're more professional grade or more thoroughly well studied, and there's a little more data or expectation uh targeted intentions and maybe efficacy expectations. Fairer?

SPEAKER_00 17:51

Yeah, I would say so.

Dr. Mark Su 17:53

All right. So expanding on that, can you share with everybody and myself your your thoughts on the well supplement industry, we'll say, not just supplement industry as a whole, you know, not necessarily just to do with orthomolecular, but the industry as a whole.

What Quality Manufacturing Really Means

Dr. Mark Su 18:06

You're um you may have some biases. Many of us has bias have biases, and I have my own opinions about the the provider community or um practitioner community in the functional medicine world, about um biases, you know, with pharma, non-pharma. But knowing what you know, what would you list as the the good, the bad, and the ugly with the supplement industry?

SPEAKER_00 18:28

So I think um I'm gonna take quite an unbiased approach with this because I think that there is a way to be unbiased. And where I would say just from a whole, supplements should be FDA audited, meaning that the FDA is coming to a facility and inspecting that facility to ensure good manufacturing practices. So when you see that a supplement or nutraceutical company says they have CGMPs, they should because that is required per the FDA. And so from a general sense, everyone should abide by the good manufacturing practices for producing nutraceuticals or supplements. And so from that broad perspective, there are companies that do it by the books and do it very well. And there are companies that I think are just looking to on paper, look like they are performing in a way or producing in a way that is deemed acceptable, but may toe the line of what could or could not be okay per FDA standards. I would say from a good manufacturing perspective, when you're working with a professional nutraceutical company and they're manufacturing those supplements, they are treating that manufacturing process to the nth degree, meaning that when they take in raw materials that they are putting into their products, they're testing those raw materials before they even enter the facility for purity, for potency, for identity of that raw material. There's something called core sampling that should be done and is typically done by good professional nutraceutical companies. Essentially, that's taking a big tube and sticking it in and looking at all layers of basically a bag or barrel of a raw material that comes into a facility and testing to ensure it's consistent. So there's no filler sitting in the middle and it's not dressed in such a way where it's not truly what that raw material is claiming. So if it's a professional nutraceutical company, they're doing that additional testing to ensure that it's true before they're even bringing it into their facility.

Dr. Mark Su 20:21

Some companies will you said that's called core sampling?

SPEAKER_00 20:24

Core sampling, yep. And they'll uh refer to this period before it comes into the facility as a quarantine period. So that's where that professional nutraceutical company should be doing their in-house initial testing. After that, they'll bring it into the facility so that they can start to formulate if it does meet their expectations and their standards for formulation. From there, there's a level of expertise that goes into the machinery that can be used, um, from you know, things that they're using to ensure that the raw material is uniform with the other raw materials or things that are mixed in with that supplement, and then to get that into a capsule. So from a professional nutraceutical standpoint, everything is clean. Um, you should walk into the facility. If they allow you to do a tour, you should see that there's no dirt, cobwebs, spider webs on the floor or around. I've been to the facility that of the company I represent and I'm terrified of spiders. My first comment to the tour guide of our facility was, I've been looking around for spiderwebs everywhere because I'm afraid I'm gonna see one. And he said, It's funny you say that. We have to clean this facility multiple times per day to ensure that there's no outside contaminants, such as spiders or other bugs that could potentially get into a supplement. If someone is producing a supplement, say in their garage, which a lot of people make a funny joke of my business started in my garage, you'd be shocked. There are some supplement companies that produce their products in a random warehouse or in a garage, and they aren't controlling that whole process. So when I talk about the differences of a good manufacturing practice, that's really what I'm describing. The unfortunate portion of the industry is unless someone is notable and on the map, sometimes the FDA is not at their doorstep every year or every other year. There's a certain number of times the FDA has to come in and audit a facility on a regular basis to ensure good manufacturing practices.

Dr. Mark Su 22:16

Sorry, I thought you were implying that that isn't done regularly.

SPEAKER_00 22:20

So it should be. It should be done regularly. But sometimes if it's a smaller company, sometimes it's not done to the same degree as, say, someone who's, you know, a 500 million company that is producing nutraceuticals, they're going to be visiting that facility probably more frequently than a smaller, you know, mom and pop type of supplement company that are just doing in-house encapsulations. Um, and that would be under the guise of your smaller supplement companies, kind of the ones you find on little websites, which no knock to them, because they could actually be really great products. Um, but there is a level of professionalism in the manufacturing process. And because, you know, sometimes the FDA isn't all eyes because there's only so many FDA representatives, they're going to pay attention to where most of the volume is going to versus those smaller facilities, which makes things challenging. Um, and I would say that's part of the ugly part of the industry. I think another thing as well is not every supplement company, so nutraceutical companies should be doing this, but not every supplement company is testing for identity, for purity, for potency, doing all of the things they need before, during, and after the manufacturing process from a manufacturing standpoint as well as a testing standpoint to ensure the quality of their products. And so when we run into that issue in more of the common supplement space, that's where we get inconsistencies. That's where you look at these consumer reports where someone goes to Amazon and they buy X, Y, Z types of products, they go and test them on their own and they find there's no detectable vitamin D or there's, you know, hyper detection of vitamin D where it's well above the listed dose on the supplement fax box. So that's kind of what I mean by like the bad or ugly portion of the industry is when they're not regulating and testing and doing all necessary steps for the manufacturing process, that's when we can run into some of the things where people say, Oh, I don't trust supplements because they don't work.

unknown 24:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:11

It's usually the companies that aren't investing in the quality of manufacturing that are producing the products that aren't as effective as, say, a nutraceutical would be.

Dr. Mark Su 24:20

Okay. So I've got several questions now to clarify.

SPEAKER_00 24:22

Yes.

Dr. Mark Su 24:23

Number one, uh, so for number one, did all those steps that you threw out, the core sampling and then the um any kind of um regulations or um practices in the actual formulation, and then uh you didn't get to it, but I'm sure, you know, there's another piece about batch testing, right? Yes. Being sure that um that there's consistency in the end product between different batches of whatever product is being made from time to time, right? Mm-hmm. And so I know that there's some kind of some companies may differ in terms of we tested, you know, we just test that product once every I'm making this up every quarter or whatever, but we're not testing every batch. If we test one qu every quarter and that one lot or however many we test is good, we're just calling the whole thing good. Is that fair? Does that probably happen sometimes?

SPEAKER_00 25:06

You know, I can't speak to what other companies do. What I can speak to is what a professional nutraceutical company should be doing is if they're doing their manufacturing and testing correctly, is they should be testing with every lot that's produced. And you should be able to find that batch testing or that lot testing through a certificate of analysis. That is something that they should be doing. But to say every single company is doing that, I'm not entirely sure. I can only speak from my experience and what I've seen.

Dr. Mark Su 25:34

And I think that's why I say that, because um, I know when companies say we stand by our products, we do that lot testing, that batch testing, that sort of infers to me that okay, the other companies aren't necessarily doing that. So I mean, maybe they're not doing it at all, maybe they're testing just here and there and they're just calling it uh, you know, the extrapolating, I don't know. But are all those pieces? You you mentioned at the very beginning the um the CGMP. Right? Uh the uh the manufacturing process certification. So um as a whole, what percentage of what percentage of supplements slash nutraceutical companies do you think actually have that CGMP label?

SPEAKER_00 26:09

I think that 100% of nutraceutical companies should have that because I feel like that is looped into um I'm sorry, when you say when you say 100% you think 100% should, does that mean your your opinion is that 100% of companies should have it?

Dr. Mark Su 26:24

Or you mean no, my suspicion is that 100% of nutraceutical companies have that?

SPEAKER_00 26:29

Both. Both. If you see a supplement company list CGMPs, again, they should have good manufacturing practices and that should be monitored. But I don't know the statistic on, you know, all of the supplement companies out there because it is, I mean, a multi-billion dollar industry. It's really hard to look at every single company, but I would guess See, it wouldn't surprise me.

Dr. Mark Su 26:57

I've never it wouldn't surprise me if if you walk into a CVS or Walgreens or a um, you know, a compound pharmacy or a a natural grocery store, you know, kind of setup. And it wouldn't surprise me if you periodically just go peeking at what's on their shelves, right? And so I'm just kind of curious if if assuming you've done that from time to time, do you do you sit there and look for hey, how many of these companies actually have CGMP labels or not?

SPEAKER_00 27:17

So it's it's interesting. So they don't actually have to put it on their label in order for them to claim that they have CGMP. So we actually don't include it on our label. You can find it on our website. If you look us up, um you'll see that we we will claim that.

SPEAKER_01 27:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 27:30

Um and it's up to the company really to put that on the label.

Dr. Mark Su 27:34

So is is it possible the company would say on their website that they have a CGMP, but they they're lying?

SPEAKER_00 27:40

I hope not. If they do, you know, if that's a good question. Um, and I think that comes to a level of integrity for that brand.

Dr. Mark Su 27:47

I mean, is I guess what I'm asking is is that something that um some level of the federal government is, you know, monitoring that kind of thing, because it's a federal government labeling, right?

SPEAKER_00 27:55

It is, and I would hope so, but I cannot say for certain. I my suspicious mind would maybe think I'm not sure.

Dr. Mark Su 28:04

It's fire, right? It's it's really playing with fire. Some I'm I'm assuming if if I'm a supplement company and I'm saying that I am, but I'm not, and then I get caught. Like that's probably close to death.

SPEAKER_00 28:12

Yeah. Um, I would say so.

Dr. Mark Su 28:14

All right. So then are those practices, the core sampling, the the batch testing, etc., are those all parts of CGMP or are they not?

SPEAKER_00 28:21

Um, you know what, from a definition standpoint, I'm not entirely sure. I do know that has a lot to do with um cleanliness of the facility, ways in which that the products are mixed within machinery and encapsulated into like whatever form of capsule they're utilizing. Okay. Um, and then delivering the product um that that's clean and that's reputable and all. I think that the definition, there is probably a clear one that I don't know by heart. Um, you could probably find some form of definition if you look through in intensive FDA paperwork, but you know, I would expect that if it's a professional nutraceutical company, there should be consistency. And I will say I have colleagues all throughout the industry that, you know, represent other companies.

SPEAKER_01 29:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:02

And, you know, some companies will have a single facility, some companies will have multiple facilities, some companies will do contract manufacturing through multiple other facilities as well and put their label on things. And it's under the expectation if they're defining themselves as a professional nutraceutical company, that they are, you know, at least producing products either themselves or paying someone to produce it for them in a facility that is CGMP, which is the expectation. It's a consistency in the professional nutraceutical space, but I can't speak to the just general dietary supplement industry because it is very broad.

How Consumers Can Vet Products

Dr. Mark Su 29:38

Yeah. And so what I'm really getting at here, you know, there's in the back of my mind, you know, when I'm talking to patients as a clinician, it's a lot of times I'm talking about this is what I've developed trust in or I've established trust in integrity of the company, efficacy of you know, outcomes with patients, et cetera. And a lot of that is just like hearsay. I mean, some of it, especially if I was new to the functional medicine community as a practitioner, it's really like hard to understand and and and um assimilate all these details, even just what you just shared right now with all these manufacturing processes, right? It's it's just a lot of information. And so I've never dug into all that stuff with all these companies, right? And so a lot of this ends up from my observation to be, like I said, here it's kind of hearsay. Like, I trust my colleague, my colleague trusts that company, I'm gonna use that company. Okay, so what I'm getting at is let's go straight to the patients, right? Because patients are getting all kinds of stuff, uh the general public is getting all kinds of stuff all over the map on the internet these days, right? And there's more and more that's directly available to them. So you've you've now multiple times differentiated like a supplement company versus a nutraceutical company. And so I didn't expect this, but we threw out those terms earlier. And so can you give an example? And we're not trying to like, you know, accuse or finger point or whatever, but what's an example of a supplement company that you don't consider a nutraceutical company? Um so I would say names, or you can just say like it, because in my mind, I'm thinking it's a company that let's say they're only in the lane of making vitamin B B vitamins, vitamin D, fish oil, and let's say like that's it. Okay, so those are kind of more broad supplements. You know, is that like a category, or if do you have names of examples? You know, we're not trying to be negative to anybody, just yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:11

I think that there's so there are some companies, such as you know, your major greens companies. I'm sure you can think of an example, gets promoted on a lot of podcasts. You know, if you look at the level of testing that happens, if you look at consumer reports, sometimes we'll see that they, you know, will test positive for heavy metals. You'll see that they'll test positive for certain contaminants that they shouldn't test positive for.

Dr. Mark Su 31:32

Um and if I'm sorry, major greens company is that that's a brand name or that's a category.

SPEAKER_00 31:37

There is there are some companies that produce greens products.

Dr. Mark Su 31:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 31:41

There's one in particular that I'm sure you can think of that has been very popular, I think, among a lot of like big, big health podcasters.

Dr. Mark Su 31:50

So when you say greens, you're saying like uh vegetables in a capsule kind of thing?

SPEAKER_00 31:54

Or in powders.

Dr. Mark Su 31:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 31:56

So it's like a greens drink. You know, everyone wants to feel healthy, have a green drink. Sometimes they'll throw vitamins in there, sometimes they'll throw probiotics in there. It really, it really grinds my ears when they throw all sorts of things in there, like digestive enzymes and things like that, because that tells me that green is probably or whatever type of raw material is in there is probably not very easy to digest, might cause some stomach irritation or digestive upset. And um they have to include those enzymes or those probiotics. So we're breaking down the greens um when we could just simplify the formulation process and maybe just include things that are low FODMAP or a little easier to digest.

Dr. Mark Su 32:29

So it could be like they're pitching it, they're pitching it as like, hey, we're giving you an extra digestive enzyme, and you're thinking that you're doing because there's a reason.

SPEAKER_00 32:34

Yeah. And I mean, it's maybe there is benefit. That's my own bias speaking. And, you know, the research that I've done, but there's there are supplement companies out there that get widely, widely blown up and popularized through social media, through podcasts, and I think they always start with good intention. I think every company starts with good intention. And it is, it would be completely unfair for me to not admit that. Now, there's probably some bad ones out there, but I am someone who believes that there's good in everyone in the world. And so I'm believing that everyone starts with some mission that is good intentioned. And sometimes as a company grows too rapidly, if they lose touch of that, then things will change with their manufacturing. And that will change the quality of that, of that supplement or even of that nutraceutical. Um, I've seen a lot of that happen over the past probably five or six years since COVID, actually. I've seen companies completely change the way they've operated, where maybe once they were considered a nutraceutical, but now I would probably throw them more so in the category of general dietary supplements. Um, and that comes down to, you know, definition standpoint. What changed about their manufacturing practices, what changed about the quality of their raw materials? You know, are we really investing in good quality raw materials? Are we changing things to be less expensive for the consumer, but not as therapeutic? So there's, you know, a level of, I think, again, professionalism when it comes to a therapeutically dosed or well-researched raw material within a specific formula, we want that to be consistent. Because if it's say, you know, someone's a poor methylator, for example, if we go from producing something that has methylfolate in it, and now we've decided to change the formula to have just folic acid in there. If someone's a poor methylator, will they absorb that folate? Probably not to the degree that they would if it was methylated. So those are the types of things I've been seeing. And I think that's kind of where I'm getting at in the definition between a supplement company versus a nutraceutical company. Now, nutraceuticals are supplements, but not all supplements are nutraceuticals. So um, it's just a level of, I think, manufacturing and quality behind that raw material or that formula that they're producing that I think is end result for the consumer.

Dr. Mark Su 34:38

So let me let me rephrase and sort of like nail it down. How does an someone in the lay public, or for me for that matter, can I identify on my own a company being a supplement company or a nutraceutical company?

SPEAKER_00 34:51

I think so. And I think where you can define that is for nutraceutical companies, oftentimes, if you go to their website and you look up a product, usually they will have a product information link that'll bring you to a page that'll give you a full rundown of that product and the research behind each raw material. I can think of a number of examples within the professional nutraceutical industry. And maybe they're not practitioner exclusive, but they've researched everything behind their formulas. And that I think speaks volumes to what I would define as a nutraceutical. If we look at supplements, typically you're just gonna see a quick rundown of, you know, green tea extract does X, Y, and Z, pomegranate does X, Y, and Z, and it's not therapeutically dosed to align with research. Um, and that's where I would say there's a difference. So you could decipher it as a general consumer, probably not when you just go to a random website and you're like, oh, I want to buy a supplement today. What's the difference? It's gonna take some digging, and I think you know, it's it's something that people have to do their research for. It's not, I think, easily identifiable, but it is something that you can identify on your own without being part of the industry.

Dr. Mark Su 35:59

So so one filter is you're saying, okay, so I I hear about a supplement on uh social media, I see one on social media, I hear one on podcasts, whatever, I go to the web that company's website. If I see more detailed information on any given product that references studies, and likely they're not studies created and run by that company, uh certainly, but um, if they've put some work, uh this is the way I'm inferring from you, interpreting from you, if they've put some effort and work into listing references and studies behind the ingredients within their product, then it's more likely you could call that company a nutraceutical company.

SPEAKER_00 36:34

Yeah. And I think it's um the level of legitimacy of that reference as well. So, you know, they're not listing some USA Today article that says turmeric is good for you. You know, it's like them actually referencing something from PubMed that they found that's uh a clinical study or um something to that degree uh within their product information. So I know like if you were to go to our website, you look up a product, whether you're a practitioner or a patient, you can find that product on our website and you can pull up product information sheet or practitioner information sheet or whatever we call it. And I know a lot of other companies in this industry do that as well. You'll pull it up and you'll see their little summary and then a list of references. And usually there's a list of like 10, 15, 20, even 50 references to really back what's in that in that formula. So I would expect that of a of a professional nutraceutical company, but you typically will see these supplement companies. I think of, you know, those supplement companies that are like all for gains in the gym. I think of that all the time. You go to their website, it's some, you know, crazy looking bottle, and it's like so-and-so bodybuilder swears by this, and we love our formula, and it's gonna do XYZ for your body, and there's like no resources, or there's like one thing that says whatever ingredient they included in their formula is really good for you. That's where I'm like red flag. Don't buy that one. That's probably not you know therapeutically dosed and well thought out and high quality. Look for ones that have full information sheets that you know can provide value in what you're looking to learn.

Dr. Mark Su 38:12

At the same time, not to complicate this, but I'm thinking like, you know, like nature's made as a common, you know, I mean that comes to my mind as a kind of common alcohol supplement company, right? They you can buy it at whatever CVS, Target, Walmart, whatever. To my observation, they don't make more targeted therapies. You know, it's B vitamins, fish oil, vitamin D, whatever. I mean rice, kinds of iron, minerals, whatever, right? I wouldn't expect that if I go to the website, they're gonna layer out references because this is like common stuff that I don't know how much anyone would do that. I don't even I don't even know how much I would expect orthomolecular if I go there looking for like your reacted iron product, how much they're gonna have references on iron per se. I don't know. But um but I don't know that I would necessarily then say, well, they're not they are or aren't trusted because we're talking about common ingredients and I don't I guess there's just no is there's just no way to assess like how integral a company like Nature's Made is, other than like consumer reports doing some studies or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 39:06

I think um the consumer reports definitely help. I think with a company that large making the claims that they do, saying that they're like the number one pharmacist recommended brand, it has to it has to carry weight somewhere. Some companies can make claims we're the number one this or that. I don't think that's regulated. But you know, if I were to look at levels of this industry, I would say professional nutraceutical, you're gonna find tons of references and research behind the formulas. I would consider Nature's Made maybe a higher, a higher quality dietary supplement company. And I kind of I look at that as, you know, they're they're really their full intention is single ingredient products, some level of complexity, maybe if it's a multivitamin, but for the most part, you're seeing them as a B12 gummy or a vitamin C gummy or capsules of some sort. You're not seeing, you know, the same thing that you would find in, say, one of our products. Oftentimes, and I don't know this about nature's main because I don't really take too close of a look at their line, but sometimes in these products you might find at a GNC or at a, you know, Walmart or Target or a Costco. I love Costco, so it pains me to say this. But you're gonna find some of these, some of these supplements have a ton of additives in there, you know, fillers, excipients, things that, you know, to a degree can exist in high quality products and they need to in the formulation process, but like filler doesn't need to exist everywhere. And high amounts of that doesn't need to exist everywhere. And so oftentimes you're gonna find that some of these more directed companies that try to do, you know, the level of um expectation you'd see with a professional nutraceutical company, I'd pay attention to the dose of things. I'd pay attention if it's proprietary, meaning that we're not listing out the dose of each ingredient. I would pay attention to other ingredients they're listing on their label. I would pay attention to the delivery of that product. Is it in a capsule? Is it a powder? Is it a gummy? Yeah. If it's a gummy, you know what is in that product. Because sometimes certain raw materials aren't stable in gummies. So there's a level of digging the consumer has to do.

Dr. Mark Su 41:10

Yeah, and that's where I'm going with this is uh, you know, I mean, I think you can tell this is where I'm I'm saying, like, if I'm just a consumer and I don't really know that much. I'm not a digger, you know, but I I have interest in because again, we're we're all bombarded, bombarded with all kinds of, you know, buy, buy me, buy me. What are what are the top three, you know, kind of like this is what you should do to have some level of validation that this is a quality product or company? Because you're saying CGMP, you know, you they're not gonna be on the labels. You have to go to the website. Okay, that's one thing we could do. Is it a nutritious nutraceutical company? Well, you go to the website, do they have you know listed references? Okay, that's not too, too bad. But then beyond that, like I don't think people are gonna go calling the companies and saying, okay, you know, tell me about your cleaning product, you know, processes, how many times do you clean for spider heads? And you know, and then like, and then I don't know how many people were gonna think through, like, okay, so I heard you say, okay, so if you've got a proprietary formulation, then okay, I I can get where it's coming from. You know, they're trying to protect their patent or whatever it is, but it's at least it it can be suspicious because they don't have to report what it is, right? But then when you throw out like the topic of like, okay, what about the doses? How m how therapeutic are those doses? Well, the late person's not gonna know what a therapeutic dose of whatever might should be or could be.

SPEAKER_00 42:18

Yeah, and I I think that's kind of where I think that's where a huge pitfall of this industry is. And I think even when you see on labels or you see disclaimers where they say, talk to your healthcare provider before you start this supplement, most healthcare providers don't know at all. And it's the same, it's the same experience that a general consumer who just wants to take something to better their health and all the power to them. I love that for anyone. I don't care what they're buying, if they're getting something that they feel is good quality and they're doing it with the intention of benefiting their health and they don't know any better, I don't want to judge them. At least they're taking a step for their health. But it's sometimes confusing as a consumer. It's confusing because there's so many inconsistencies in the industry and there's so many inconsistencies with the level of knowledge people have. Where if you want to go to your physician and say, hey, should I take this supplement? They're gonna look at it and then they're gonna Google what the RDA is, or they're gonna Google, you know, what the recommended whatever is for an herb, and then they'll come back to the patient and say, I think this is okay, you can try it, or they'll say, Don't take it at all because they don't know enough about it and they don't want to give a recommendation that's harmful to their patient. Yeah, usually letter.

Dr. Mark Su 43:30

Yeah, and that's and the RDA things that that's a funny thing, right? I mean, we even in our own practices hear people all the time, like, is this too much? The RDA, it says it's 2,000 percent of the RDA, and like, oh no, the RDA is like so minimal and blah blah blah. That's a whole other story. So it is.

SPEAKER_01 43:42

It's a topic in itself.

Dr. Mark Su 43:44

Maybe we'll try to capture this again at the at the end is you know, just what are the take homes that a patient sh uh the late public should keep in mind as to um evaluating any kind of new product? Uh we didn't prep this ahead of time, and so this is on the fly, and I'm still thinking that through myself, but um let's move on for a second. Is that all right? Uh so you know, thinking about in some ways I'm kinda you know, because it it's the nature of the game that this this is an industry that isn't more regulated than it is in the US, okay, certainly not regulated like the pharmaceutical industry. And so so we've kind of talked about, hey, there's a lot of complex there is complexity, and there's there's a lot of room for uncertainty and confusion, right? And there's a lot of room for being uh being uh having the the the sweater pulled overhead, right, the wolf pulled overhead that we're being given something that really doesn't have what they claim they have in it, right? Integrity of content, et cetera. So what would you say to um naysayers, skeptics of the supplement industry about the validity or efficacy of supplements or some of them, etc., given what we just said, that sometimes it's hard to tell what's legit or

Answering Supplement Skeptics With Evidence

Dr. Mark Su 44:46

not. So if an if a naysayer or skeptic is here, like going, yeah, this is why I don't take supplements and why I don't trust them, what might you say in response to that?

SPEAKER_00 44:53

I say it all lies in the quality of the product you're consuming. And it's it's something I'll hear from newer physicians to functional medicine. They say, I don't want to have my patients have expensive urine or expensive poop. You know, that's like the one thing I hear from people, I don't want expensive urine. And my response is always the urine won't be expensive if the product is actually being absorbed. So what we need to look for is, you know, if we're taking a mineral formula, is it chelated or is it at least a researched form of that mineral? And by chelated I mean for people who may not know, it's a mineral bound to an amino acid or bound to a salt that's actually absorbed. Is there data behind it? I also like to look at the quality of maybe the B vitamins or other vitamins that are in the product, where it's being sourced from, looking at other ingredients, looking at the quality or the quality, the capsule, what that capsule is made out of. So there's some key indicators. So when I hear a naysayer say, you know, I don't really think that this is gonna work for my patients, I say, I bet you if your patient goes to GNC tomorrow or vitamin shop or, you know, those major stores and they buy a random supplement, sure, it might not do anything for them. It could, but this is where the level of working with a professional vetted nutraceutical company comes in because that's the company that's taking pride in the quality of the product they're producing and doing the extra steps, such as testing, to ensure that there's potency and there's quality and there's the true identity of the product inside that supplement that someone is taking so it's not expensive urine. Another step is like looking at the research. I, you know, recently I've been talking a ton about vitamin D, I've been talking a ton about fiber, and I've been talking a ton about creatine. Those are some of the most well-researched dietary changes in the entire world. I mean, vitamin D and creatine are some of the most well-researched raw materials and supplements that we see in the entire world. And considering that, we can look at all of the data on vitamin D and all the data on creatine. But if you're not taking a well-vetted product from a reputable company, which takes some digging to identify, which is where you can lean on peers and colleagues, or even if as a provider, hearing from your patients, that's where you can find and not know not being a naysayer anymore. But I think the convincing portion for providers or even patients that don't believe in supplements is they're not going to believe in something until they have a health experience and they take it and they notice that, okay, this is actually helping me, and I'm no longer, you know, opposed to this.

Dr. Mark Su 47:26

Yeah, and certainly uh with some of those topics we can we can anticipate that's going to change some kind of test result. But vitamin D is an easy one, just test the vitamin D level, right? Some of them aren't so easy, even if we have tests for them, right? There's a reason we don't test vitamin C levels regularly or frequently, et cetera. But and then other topics may not be so easily testable, which is a that's another reason for my skepticism about things that get brought, you know, sort of trend that become trendy in the functional medicine world, et cetera, is if we can't test for it, then you know, if it's more expensive and it can't be tested for, then that's that's a tough that's a tough sell for me. But um yeah, so there's a few there's a some so I think we're we are saying that hey, there are some ways we can um validate uh efficacy, etcetera um in in some in some particular scenarios.

Real-World Example SBI Protect Dosing

Dr. Mark Su 48:13

I'll throw out, you know, for the sake of more for um for the audience piece, and you you know this um from our conversations, that um one one of the a couple of things I really love about uh what you've taught me and what orth molecular has taught me is some of the history behind some of the products that um, at least in particular here with um orth molecular, I think, and you guys aren't the only ones who make this, but I think one of my favorite examples, again, my response to a naysayer skeptic is the uh the SBI protect that you guys make, right? So I know there's other other companies that make it. I really only think about one other company that I know of that really solidly, you know, uses this regularly, but this is the the uh the raw ingredient is immunolin, right? And so correct me if I'm wrong, okay, but my messaging to patients is this was a prescription years ago, and then for whatever reason I don't know the history of it was converted into a medical food, and so then it became categorized under a different label. I believe it's still available probably under that original uh as a at the at the original dosing under just one company, but it's godly expensive. But the way the uh the regulations and laws were set up or whatnot, then companies like Othmolecular and like Microbiome Labs can use, can obtain that raw ingredient, immunalin, and make it available as a supplement or nutraceutical, just it just has to stay under a certain dosing. So then if the practitioners are aware of what the original dosing was for therapeutic effect as a prescription, then we just up the dosing. Is that it am I any inaccuracies there for me?

SPEAKER_00 49:41

No, that's consistent. So immunalin is actually a really well-researched raw material as well. So I think, again, when we're looking to identify a true nutraceutical that's not expensive urine or expensive poop, like it's looking at the data behind the branded ingredient or source of ingredient that a company is using. Immunalin has, I think, somewhere around 74 human clinical trials. We're just using it again in humans, most notably for irritable bowel disease or IBS as well. So IBD or IBS, but you know, there's far more research growing on that raw material. But most of the clinical dosing, if you look at those clinical studies, is between five to 10 grams at the clinically studied dose. Sometimes you'll see it as high as 20 grams, even higher, I've seen in acute cases. And that again is pointing to therapeutic dosing. Now, with someone like ortho, we are we are allowed to dose it at 2.5 grams per scoop. If you wanted to get similar to, you know, what the studied dose and what the pharmaceutical dose would be, it's about five grams. And so when it's studied to support those types of patients at that dose, usually what I say in my conversations with providers is, you know, a good maintenance dose is two and a half grams. If a patient is not having an active flare-up, you as a clinician make the decision of how you want to dose it to the patients. But the clinically researched dose is anywhere from five, even ten grams, depending on severity of the condition or what we're looking to accomplish.

Dr. Mark Su 51:04

Yeah. So I just love that kind of story across the board, but I just love that story as an example to say, hey, uh, it's it's really kind of like a matter of regular sometimes it's a matter of regulations and definition where this was a prescription, right? So if you trust in prescriptions and you're kind of like questioning supplements, like this, if you know the history behind that, then that brings a lot of validity. The other example for me, just real briefly and we'll move on, is um there are some uh supplements or raw ingredients in the US that are labeled as um nutraceutical supplements, whatever they're not pharma, right? Not regulated that way, but they are prescriptions in other countries, right? I was shocked to find out a couple years ago pregnenolone, right? A commonly uh common supplement uh or ingredient from a lot of companies. I had a uh student uh a young man go out to Ireland for college for a semester, and uh I suggested, hey, you might just go down to I don't know what's goes on in Ireland, check out the pharmacy, whatever. That maybe maybe you find one and get lucky that they have pregnenolone off the shelf. Found it, but he said no, it's a prescription. I don't know why, right? Or the other one uh that I love is um as an example is uh diosmin, right? It's a um supplement in the US, but it's a prescription for hemorrhoids and varicose veins in other countries. So in any case, those are yeah, we're just kind of spitting validation on some of the a lot of the sometimes it really does come to uh despite the lesser regulations or despite the uh some decent uncertainty or variability in the industry, there's there's a lot of value in a lot of you just have to in various companies and products, you just have to kind of know this is this this is my messaging patients, okay, just me. You kind of just have to know the you have to kind of know the industry and know somebody who knows the industry, one or the other.

SPEAKER_00 52:36

Yeah. And I think honestly, that's um that's where you find someone who you trust for the information you're receiving. And that could be your healthcare provider. That could range from someone like yourself that's a medical doctor, a nurse practitioner, a PA, um, a nurse, a chiropractor. Some people um even will, you know, discuss supplements at length with those individuals, with registered dietitians. Um, I think finding someone with credentials that you can identify with is is really key. People with PhDs, I think, also can provide a lot of value. Health coaches with extensive training, I think can as well. It's weeding out people that you trust, though. Um and I think, you know, coming back to something you mentioned earlier, the landscape of today, we're inundated with so much information. Podcasts, why like you look something up on Chat GPT and it's like take XYZ supplement. And, you know, it's it's confusing as a consumer. And I think that again, finding someone who you feel is credential, that you can trust, that is providing you information that you resonate with is what's most important. While I may disagree with things that they're putting all over their Instagram or their TikTok or whatever, they do. I'm happy that they've done their own research and I'm happy that they have a group of patients that can resonate, or not patients, but maybe consumers that resonate with them because they feel that they're accomplishing a mission. While again, I may not agree with everything they're saying. I'm happy that they're doing some degree of research and spreading that to the general public because research is important and having conversations that are research driven are very important to have, especially in this industry.

Dr. Mark Su 54:04

Yeah, I'm with you. I'm with you. I'm a I'm a I'm a huge fan and supporter and proponent of uh at least you're taking action. Right. And then we may have to course correct or we might have to pivot or modify, but at least you're taking action. You know, and that might be with behavior change, with lifestyle um uh lifestyle patterns, or it might be taking supplements or whatever the case may be. So I'm with you. All right, last couple uh last couple things, uh pivoting a bit, but um

Colon Health Hormones And Favorite Picks

Dr. Mark Su 54:27

on a brief level. So again, we we geek out a lot when we get together and chat, but um so can you share with us one or two of your most favorite sort of categorical health topics? Yeah, category categorical topics and and then secondly, maybe your top three favorite um was orthomolecular products and why. Do they do they line up with the favorite topics or not? Not so much?

SPEAKER_00 54:48

I'd say to a degree. So I it depends on whatever my flavor of the month or of the year is, honestly, with the way I I read through things, but I think over the past couple of years, um my peaked interest has been colon health, uh, just especially because of the rise of colorectal cancer in young individuals. Um, it is sharply rising. And so I've been doing quite a bit of research. I have a colleague actually who had a friend of hers who is the same around the same age as I am, unexpectedly get diagnosed with advanced stage colorectal cancer. I think it was stage three or stage four, ended up passing actually. And that's devastating that someone that's so young, and I saw that, and that sparked my interest of just what can we do to prevent this for people? So that's that's one rabbit hole I'm like constantly running down. I'm like looking at fiber, short chain fatty acids, different types of bacteria that should be in the colon that become absent if someone has been a repeated antibiotic user, and I think, oh my God, that's me as a child. So, you know, how did that impact my health? Another area that I'm really interested in is hormone health. I think that there's not enough people who know enough about hormones. And my goal is, like I said, you know, in the very beginning, is to add value in every conversation I have, approach everything from an educational standpoint. And hormones and the information and research behind it is constantly evolving. We're constantly finding out new things, we're finding new mechanisms, we're finding new pathways that we need to upregulate if someone's on hormones. So I love that because it's a constantly evolving area of health. And I mean some more so like hormones related to either female health, so hormones related to estrogen dominance or PCOS or perimenopause. But I am actually dabbling into the male hormone world currently because I find that very fascinating. And I'm glad that people are actually looking, you know, at aging men and how their hormones can change as well. But to kind of bullet down then to my favorite products from ortho, most of my favorite products are things I take personally, and I take them personally because of my own health journey. My first, and you mention it, my first and most favorite is SBI Protect. I take that thing every day. I keep it on hand at all times. If I'm traveling, if I'm going out to eat at a restaurant that is like, I don't know what they're cross-contaminating with their food, like I keep it on deck because if I eat something that's gonna upset my stomach, I'm like, my husband knows this. I'm putting scoops and I'm like choking it down, barely mixed with a spoon at a restaurant. Yes, I will literally do it in the restaurant. I've done it at weddings. I'm not even kidding. I think bring that thing everywhere. People are like, what's that thing in your drink? That looks weird. I'm like, don't look at me. Ignore me. My stomach is not gonna hurt later because I'm taking this, so please ignore me.

Dr. Mark Su 57:23

I'm assuming you're bringing the smaller container, not the big tub.

SPEAKER_00 57:25

Yes, I am bringing the small one. Sometimes I put it in a baggie and I put it in my purse. No, I'm not even kidding. My husband knows. Like, he's like, Did you take your SBI or like, did you bring it with? I'm concerned because he knows the night will be over. Like, we'll have to go home. So I bring it everywhere. I also take our fiber every day. I've expressed my piqued interest in colon health and hormone health, which I think those two things actually go together the more and more you dig. But I take uh fiber MGP every day. That's my new favorite product from Ortho, um, because it's 11 grams of fiber. And I'm a fiber freak. I try to get in as much fiber as I can every day because the longevity data on it is phenomenal. The hormone balancing benefits of fiber uh consumption is also incredible. And then the final one, I think, um, if I had to choose a third, because there's more, Midocore is one of my other favorite products. I love that we have clinical research on that, on that product. I love that every time like I take it, if I try to veer away from it, which I did this just recently, one of my friends, she's in the um health space, and um, she was like, Hey, like I've got these vitamins, it's like a powdered one. She was like, Can you just like do you want to take some? She had some left. I was like, okay, I'll buy like two from you. I'll take it for two months. And I felt crappy. I'm like, why do I feel crappy? Like my mood doesn't feel right. And then, you know, I finally finished it and I went back on my mitochord and I was like, oh, the world feels bright again. And it was because it was a difference of like the quality of the B vitamins. So when we talk about quality of vitamins, it's like literally, I was not absorbing the other B vitamins because I'm a poor methylator. And I was like, oh, that wasn't methylated folate. That wasn't methylated B12. Like, why did I take this? I just, you know, and it's it was funny. Um, no knock to her. She, you know, she's lovely, but I should have just stuck on my mitochore. But those are my three faves. Um, if I could choose maybe two others, um, we have a wonderful inocitol formula, and I just love inocatol as a raw material. I've been taking it for years, and I literally know, like the months that I don't take it, I feel so different. And magnesium is another one that I take every day. What's that?

Dr. Mark Su 59:23

You mean this historically with other companies inocatol, or you mean just since Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:27

So I've been I've been taking anositol for probably.

Dr. Mark Su 59:30

So you guys is a sort of like unbiased scenario. You're saying I would take an acetol even from other companies, and when I wouldn't take it, I would notice.

SPEAKER_00 59:37

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So there's some really good um brands out there that have standalone inocitals. I like it when it's mixed with other stuff because it kind of cuts down on like the supplements I'm taking every day. I kind of like the combo products. I love that that's what the company I work for does is we combine things that people are often just like taking. So you're not on like a million different supplements. But anostatol by itself, especially as the 40 to 1 ratio, there's a lot of really great research on it, but it can be extremely helpful at balancing hormones. Um, if we look at like sex hormone binding globulin, FSH, LH, estrogens, testosterone, all of those things that can be drivers for estrogen dominant conditions. You know, sometimes it can exacerbate some symptoms women will experience during their cycle. And um I've never had like cycle irregularities. And this is a health podcast, so I'll share some of my health journey. I've never really had cycle irregularities, but like, you know, I've had cramping. I've been a moody girl. And, you know, I want to be cool, calm, and collected, especially with, you know, my husband. I don't want to freak him out too much. He's married to me. It's not like he can go anywhere, but I want to make his life pleasant. And so when I take inocitol regularly, I notice like my mood is really normal. I don't have painful periods. I, you know, I feel a lot brighter. I sleep better, especially when I take it with magnesium. Um, so as a raw material, I love, love inocitol. If I had two favorite raw materials in this world, it would be immunolin from the serum-derived bovine immunoglobulins, and it would be inocitol. Most definitely. Those two, I think, are a huge thing.

Dr. Mark Su 1:01:03

I kind of making it sound like um your husband might agree.

unknown 1:01:07

Yes.

Dr. Mark Su 1:01:09

By your report.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:10

Yes, yeah. My my husband, he yes, he would absolutely did you take the SPI yet at this wedding? Or yeah. Okay, did you even take an inocatol? Or yeah, no, he calls it my night drink. So, like every night, if I'm too tired to like put it together before I'm like getting ready for bed, he's like, You want me to go make your night drink? So they'll literally go in the kitchen. He's like, What's in the night drink again? I'll start throwing stuff together. He'll put it on the counter as I'm getting out of out of the shower. He's like, make sure to take your night drink, okay?

Dr. Mark Su 1:01:38

It's funny, but hey, it's it's cool that you have like an answer or you have something to be able to take action on, right? Because I think there's a ton of people out there who they don't have and they don't have a go-to.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:48

Yeah. And that's actually another thing. So we're talking about like, how do you know, you know, naysayers are like even earlier in this conversation, how do we define like what's a quality supplement? If we just erase everything that we discuss, and it's like you literally just feel different within a few weeks of stopping that formula you were taking, and then you get back on it, and within like a week or two, you're like, okay, I feel normal again. That's how we know it's working. And that's one thing, actually, I will say, like, I have to say, in like I work with a ton of clinicians, and I, you know, I I've seen them have colleagues and friends who don't believe in supplements. And sometimes they dismiss their patients and they say, no, that doesn't work, stop taking it. But the patient feels good. Like, I don't care if it's like a placebo effect. If the patient feels good, let them take it. Like, if it's not harming them, of course, there's there's levels of like what should be allowed, and I'm sure you see all the time you get supplement junkies. But if they feel good, if they can think clearly, if they don't feel exhausted when they wake up in the morning, or if they feel like they can think throughout the day, if they have energy, if like, you know, they go and they have their cholesterol drawn and this supplement lowered their cholesterol, who are you to say that that's not working well for them? You know, and I think um, I think that's some that's something that I wish there was more acceptance of from a lot of healthcare providers is just understanding and meeting patients where they're at and not dismissing them because ultimately the patient knows their body better than anyone. They're coming to you for guidance and advice, but if they love what they're taking and they, you know, feel good on it and you suggest that they stop, you know, they know that supplement's working. And that's another thing. Again, like you could go get a supplement or a nutraceutical from any company. And if you think it's working for you, ignore what I've said. You know, if it's working well for you and you trust it and you feel good about it, I don't want to take that away from you. We talked about just having the effort there and just putting that step forward and bettering yourself. Please, by all means, the world is a better place when we take care of ourselves. So I think um that's just that's just my opinion. But anyways, I'll if I keep rambling, I'll go off about something else.

Dr. Mark Su 1:03:47

No, it's good stuff. And I'm um, you know, I I'll save from too many uh yeah, because it'll kind of get more complicated. But yeah, I think um if we were to summarize, yeah, I think we're saying hey, the the supplement com the supplement industry um slash subdivided, subdivision, subpopulation, nutraceutical industry. Um, yeah, there's quite a variety, right? Hey, that's the case with most anything, right? I mean, especially where it's not as well standardized. We could say that about healthcare practitioners, right? It's a whole kind of variety. Hey, my chiropractor friend said, Hey, Mark, there's like 160 plus different methods of chiropractic techniques. I was like, oh my good God, that's very unstandardized, right? So um it is what it is, but there's a lot of at the same time, there's a lot of powerful and effective options. So there's a lot of good tools. There's a um it's a matter of as much best as we can aligning those specific tools with the specific needs. And uh and that's where it come my is some of my qualifier comes into play in my in my head as you're describing at the very end some of that messaging that um, you know, we we definitely have some patients, we often frequently have patients who they try something that they're assuming is gonna help them with, let's say, my my almighty favorite example of fatigue. I've I'm tired, I assumed I would take some iron, I would feel better. I I didn't feel better, so I didn't feel more energy, so iron iron must not work for me. Or it might not be this company may not make good iron or whatever, despite on paper you have low iron. Well, there's a lot of other reasons you could be fatigued too. So, but at the very end, in the end of the day, I agree with you. Just taking action and caring about yourself is still of value, and ultimately, ideally, we'd like to believe that uh there are more and more. We I think you and I both observed there are definitely more and more practitioners moving into the functional medicine space. That it's a different um it's a dynamic with patient care. We we definitely observe it's more supportive, more engaging, and more uh collaborative. And um and that's that's certainly again our goal with uh Rootseek as a virtual practice, also is to be available, accessible, be supportive, be nurturing and empowering, but yet be available as a professional guidance with diagnostic topics and pointing people in directions that are of integrity and trying to help people get better faster along the way.

Key Takeaways And Practical Trust Rules

Dr. Mark Su 1:06:00

way that that be including reducing unnecessary waste in time, effort, and money. So with that being said, uh I don't know, any other like summary or concluding thoughts in your mind from what we talked about?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:11

I think you got most of it. I think that um one thing I'll note is, you know, while we discussed the complexity of the supplement and nutraceutical industry, I think the most direct messaging that you could have a take home of just as a consumer is if you trust what you're consuming and it's recommended by someone that you trust and you've done your research, I think the research portion is very important. Um not just going online and seeing some influence or shove something in your face, but looking into what's the quality of that product and learning how to identify that, that's when you know you found something good. Whether it's considered a supplement or considered a professional nutraceutical, if there's something to support the formulation of that product and you feel safe taking it, I think that's in in your best interest, now I'll be biased. I think professional nutraceuticals are the way to go, but it's not something that's consumable by every single individual. And it does take a level of expertise to identify potent products and good quality products. So in sum I think that I hope everyone gets on a good health journey and they seek out clinicians like yourself because you know I'm fortunate enough to work with you. I know we've talked about even some of my health stuff um which has been very helpful for me. But you know people could only be so lucky to find someone to trust like yourself who does the research for them. And that's when you've you know you know you're in a good spot. If you can't do it, find someone who can do it for you and you're you're the exact person that can do it for your patients.

Listener Discount Offer And Closing

Dr. Mark Su 1:07:34

Well thanks for that compliment. Yeah we um I think that there's a reason we get along so well and enjoy geeking out together with our colleagues. Um awesome let's let's uh yeah let's bring this to a close and um you know what um out of a sort of fun at the risk of sounding a little bit pitchy or salesy but you know from from a real place of just heart of um interest and I don't know that we intend to do this much if ever uh otherwise but let's throw out a fun um a fun discount offer you know or gift offering for for folks so how about we say so let's pick um let's pick two of your three favorite um that you mentioned uh supplements from orthomolecular and I'll pick uh one other one of mine. So let's say SBI Protect, all right, and that's the that's the product that has the raw ingredient immunolin. And so um if folks if you're a person who has IBS iterable syndrome, especially on the sort of more loose diarrhea side, let's say that that's a great option for you. Again, this is not obviously liability here it's not medical advice directly for any individual here but as a category of alignment folks who deal with IBS on some level SBI protected it's likely to be helpful. All right and then um another one that you mentioned oh yeah fiber. Fiber MGP yeah yeah I've I've been using that every day as I told you as well for for forecast that it's got a um a lime flavor uh a kiwi flavor so um if you don't like kiwi that might not be a great idea for you um anybody who's into fiber and that's a huge piece in the longevity space as you already as you already alluded to and uh it also has uh GLP1 um support within and so hormone balance help support we won't get into more technical details so if you're if you are interested in fiber we'll list that as uh topic two as a gift and then the third one I'll throw out is mycoactive I really love mycoactive I I love that mycoactive so it's it's uh just a quick summary it's um strains uh species four four uh six oh I'm sorry six I was like that didn't sound right thank you six um mushroom strains and uh so I'm looking at that for immune system we test people for their immune profile on their lymphocytes and when we see it's low normal or certainly outright low we get people that are microactive we might have to go up on dosing but it's universal their their numbers will go up right their immune system is healthier so anybody who um especially patients who have dealt with cancer like prostate cancer or whatever else or historically currently or they have a strong family history like I'm very big on upping their their lymphocyte counts you know for their immune profile for cancer on just on a support basis we'll call it and then of course anyone who kind of you as you alluded to when you were sick a lot growing up anyone who gets seems to get sick frequently not that we're gonna assume that this is the reason exactly that they're a weak immune system can be other pieces beyond the lymphocytes but I love microactive so we'll say those three products anybody who pings us back through um a click that uh we'll create for the relate to this podcast um we'll we'll set you up with um a free uh a 30% off that's the max we can do 30% discount on those products you don't have to be a patient with us um we're just kind of helping you out as a gift um for being a listener and viewer of the podcast and then we'll throw out an audition um the next hundred people be for the next after those two weeks after this podcast airs we'll say the next hundred people who ping us will offer uh a 20 20% discount on some other orthomolecular product of your choice the next hundred people however many days that might last I just kind of made that up is that fair yeah it's on us it's on us as a gift. So hey Leah this is um I know we this kind of extended out a bit but uh especially it on the front part with the uh the industry and the sort of processing manufacturing and all that stuff which was news for me and educational for me. So hey thanks for thanks for just taking time and thanks for caring. Um because you are you are a we've talked about the empath piece. You know you are you are an empathic person and that's something I know about you and and really appreciate about you and honor you for. So um thanks for your space in this in this inhumanity for caring about other people and caring about this precious topic of our health. Thanks for joining us and uh maybe we'll get a chance to do this again some other time.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:38

Yeah I look forward to it if we do. Thank you so much for having me on.

Dr. Mark Su 1:11:41

All right cool. Um for the everybody else uh yeah as always if you um are in need of reaching out to us um whether as a first time or a uh second opinion working with somebody in in the functional medicine world as always you can reach us at rootseekhealth.com and uh otherwise we'll sign off here and uh talk to you next time.