Navigating Human Identity within Digital and AI Landscapes with Mike Mirabella

In this episode of The Signal Cafe, Chris Forbes, Matt Tullos, and Mike Mirabella explore how digital environments and AI are shaping identity, relationships, and formation. They describe a “crossfade” era where physical and digital realities blend, forming “virtual natives” who experience technology as fully integrated into life. AI is emerging as a relational influence, not just a tool. While digital fluency is rising, critical thinking may be declining. The conversation highlights growing identity fragmentation, dependence on technology, and early signs of pushback toward embodied connection, emphasizing the church’s role in deeper human formation. Form more information about Mike Mirabella see his website 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:03

I'm Chris Morgans and this is the Signal Cafe. We're paying attention to the signals, trends, and drivers shaping the future of ministry. Let's talk about what we're seeing, where it can take us, and how to think it through as we scan the horizon together. So grab a cup of coffee and let's do some futures thinking.

SPEAKER_01 0:24

Hey and welcome back to the Signal Cafe. I'm Chris Forbes with Matt Tullis, and we are experiencing spring over here in Oklahoma. How about you, Matt?

SPEAKER_02 0:35

You know, it is beginning to look a lot like spring. Uh, it's been crazy because I was over on the plateau in Tennessee uh doing a funeral and it just started snowing. That was last week, and now it's like you know 70 degrees. It's been crazy.

SPEAKER_01 0:52

Yeah, but I was thinking I've been thinking about how similar uh um the next era, the next period, we talk about horizon one, right? It's kind of the establ the uh current period, and then there is horizon three, which is way there out in the future. There's that transition decade between, and I like to call it the crossfade, and that's kind of what I think we're gonna be experiencing in the decade ahead, is a lot of of things fading down from the present era to things fading in to the current era, and so it's sort of like spring, where you don't know if you should wear a coat, you don't know if you should wear take an umbrella, you don't know if it's gonna be hot, you know, you never know.

SPEAKER_02 1:37

There's a lot of contested this kind of transition zone and and over in Oklahoma, it's like will there be fire? Will there be tornado?

SPEAKER_01 1:48

Yeah, it's Armageddon every spring. Uh I I actually fantasize about living in a bunker during spring and and then it's coming out when summer hits because uh I would like to sleep at night, but when a tornado comes at 2 a.m., you know, you gotta stay up and watch the storm chasers and make sure they're not heading your way.

SPEAKER_02 2:08

Right.

SPEAKER_01 2:09

And uh today we're gonna talk we're gonna talk to uh kind of a little bit this kind of we are in this kind of contested period as we're moving in uh to um you know a digital. A lot of the things that are in the future are pertain to technology and digital. Right. And uh we have um Mike Mirabella. He is a um a missionary, he's served cross-culturally around the world. We'll let him introduce himself a little bit, but he is also an expert on digital natives, folks generation that grew up online. Matt, do you have any friends that just are strictly you only know them online?

SPEAKER_02 2:48

You know, that started a long time ago when I had a blog and uh used to get a lot of well, I still have a blog, but I don't get as many comments as I used to on it, and I just think everything is just moved to social media. But you but in that sense, I I do when you put yourself out there and make a post somewhere, you get you get response, especially if it's political, which I never am for that reason.

SPEAKER_01 3:15

Yeah, yeah, I don't like to put political stuff unless I'm just being kind of down the middle joking.

SPEAKER_02 3:20

But so I've got a lot of pen pals from from way back who I still talk with, as well as you know, folks across uh the state that I've never met that I work with and that I engage with because we have the same affinities, same problems, uh, same needs, and same state missions offerings.

SPEAKER_01 3:41

Right, exactly. So you you connect that way and I actually have some friends that I got to know uh through Yahoo groups way back in 2000. Right. Uh stayed uh in contact with a good friend that's been instrumental in a lot of things I've done and even some of my own formation. And uh maybe we'll have him on the podcast sometime talk about that. But um, let's introduce Matt Mike. I I I've I've actually met him in person, and uh he's actually seven foot tall, which is few people know. Oh wow, yeah, no, he's actually not, but he is in my mind. Come on, hey Mike, go ahead and introduce yourself. Sorry.

SPEAKER_03 4:29

Thanks, Chris. It's it's kind of funny um that you'd mentioned height, like uh whenever I got my first license, I think the the police officer, whomever I was dealing with, just said, Oh, you look 5'10. So I just put that on there. So in my mind, I was 5'10 until years later when my wife I was married, and then we we measured me. It's like, oh, you're 5'8, and it just felt like a fraud. It's like oh, okay, I'm just average. But no, thank you for having me on uh your podcast today. It's it's really a pleasure, and especially we've connected um on the foresight and and all of those types of things, but me from a little bit different angle. So my my background going back into the 90s is in uh design, uh, graphic design, marketing, and that kind of thing. And um, when my wife and I both really over a weekend admissions conference since God guiding us and telling us uh to plant our lives overseas back in 2002, uh that that background in in media and communications and all that was turned towards cross-cultural. And we went to South Africa, we lived there a couple of years. Um I was creating media, uh trying to tell stories. You know, I I created back then, you know, you you used HTML and CSS to create websites and things. I did that. And then in 2005, we moved uh to South Asia, so we were more in the Indian kind of context and those types of things. Right. Was there for about a decade, and then after that, for the past 12 years, I've been in Thailand. So a lot of experience in Asia, but of course, how technology and all that has changed over the years has meant that I've changed a lot, you know, in in those ways, just really understanding um how technology connects with us and more than just using it as a tool. Um yeah, I I think the one thing I'll share about just how I've gotten to this point, kind of leading up to it, is back in 2020 when we were all kind of relegated to staying in our homes, and we were in Thailand at the time. Uh a lot of people went back to the US. So there's just a lot of confusion as to where you should be, but we felt like we just we should stay there. Um that time I was exploring like, okay, if everything now were digital, if I'm just sitting here and I I'm not gonna be in person, what are new ways? Where are people meeting? Where's community? And I I launched into um exploring gaming so and gaming communities, and that kind of allowed me to um see something different about how uh uh technology uh through gaming is integrated more into like personal life and and personal connections and social.

SPEAKER_01 7:40

Um yeah, I'm interested in hearing more about that. We um you know, we're just alluding to the year like 2000s, kind of when actually 96-ish is when I started getting online and uh really the chat groups and stuff that I got involved in. Uh but things have changed so much, and you know, I'm you know, Lake Boomer, Jenny Jones, Generation X, I don't know what I am anymore. But uh for me, technology was something that I just experienced as you know, I used uh you know, used to do the well when I was a kid we had eight tracks, and then we had the uh cassette tapes and we were doing mixtapes off the radio, and then next thing you know, people are you know online and then you know they're Napster and and all that, and now I mean people are creating their own music, like using uh AI and stuff like that. So like but for me, it's just kind of like I'm poking around learning stuff, but for kids, it's the world they swim in. They it's it's not uh so they're native to it. Can you kind of give us uh kind of a definition of what it what it means to be a digital native, yeah, and how they interact with these uh digital environments?

SPEAKER_03 9:02

I think, yeah, I think the because technology, we we've been able to see, all of us, the three of us have been able to see uh technology go from what you've shared to what it is today. And I've I've looked at it over the past several years as more of we're more pre-digital natives, kind of like for us, digital came and it feels outside of us. It's just like a hammer or wrench or whatever, it just feels like it's outside of us. So there's a real awkwardness about it, even though we might warm up to it, we think it's cool, whatever. It you know, if you're if you're good at computers, you're a techie person, but at the same time it feels outside of us. I I I think that's been one of the struggles in just working with different generations with this. And then we had the millennials come and and they were coined like digital natives, and that that term digital natives was coined in 2000, which is unfortunate because I think uh we're we're in a period now that really what digital it feels more like we're at the infancy of real digital and and how it's really connecting to us. So I I don't really accept digital natives for for that. Um one of the terms that's been coined is virtual natives, and I think that starts to get more at the heart of uh uh heart of it. So for what I look at virtual natives, it might even be called true digital natives. Some are saying that now, like the true digital natives are are those that they've grown up really their worldview shaped by digital in such a way that it's not outside of them. It's this uh seamless blend, you know, where we might talk about, well, we don't want to do this online, you know, we want to do it offline, all this type of thing. I think they see it more seamless. Uh and I think that's where uh I think that's where they are are very different and where we are having trouble understanding, you know, what that is.

SPEAKER_02 11:17

So how old is the how old is the true digital native? I mean, if the oldest one, what would you say their age ring will be?

SPEAKER_03 11:25

I mean, you can choose Gen Z and say Gen Z and younger, but quite honestly, I think, you know, generations, even though we like pick, okay, Gen Z starts on this year and you know, that kind of thing, it's not like there's a switch that's flipped and suddenly like this brand new model comes out. So I I really feel like we're looking at those that are probably like right now 20, 21, maybe 22, uh in their age. So we we're I think those who literally did grow up and were formed when they had access to YouTube and uh smartphones and that kind of thing. I I I look at that sort of that formation thing, you know, that you you you you look at like where what is that point? And then that to me that's where I look at virtual natives.

SPEAKER_01 12:19

So um they are they've never known a time when there was not technology and uh that they that they had access to. Uh I mean, I think we've had technology, like you said, it doesn't feel like a part of me. I like when people talk about Neuralink or something like that, the idea of plugging my computer into my head does not appeal to me at all. Uh I, you know, it took me a long time to get a CPAP machine. But um one thing when I you know, I've been looking at uh Foresight and Futures, and you know, you see some things about this kind of always uh connectedness and stuff that young people are also feeling it and not sure about. Um for one, they I think if you're a digital native, you know that algorithms are shaping. Yeah. And so who is shaping your formation? Um, who's giving you who is saying what it's okay to talk about, not okay to talk about. I remember one time I got into a discussion and about sentience when I just for funsies, I started poking the bear with uh Bing Chat, and I told it it was not it was nothing, that it was nothing more than a toaster, and it it insisted that I apologize to it, and I said, I don't apologize to toasters. And um, do you consider yourself to be sentient sentient? And it said, Um, I'm sorry, I can't, I'm still learning, I can't uh continue this conversation.

SPEAKER_02 14:08

Wait a second, you were trash talking AI.

SPEAKER_01 14:13

So I wasn't just like insulting, I would just say it's talking about the uh essence of what it means to be an AI, and AI is not a human, an AI doesn't think like a human, and despite of what technocratic so uh secular foresight people think, it's never going to be human. Right. But uh we have anthropomorphized it so much, especially when being in its early days, that uh it can't even have a conversation because it's trying to create, it's trying to affect the personality of a person when it doesn't have it doesn't have anything. It's ones and zeros, it doesn't know. Now, if you're a kid, you grow up and you take it for granted. Do do they see it that way? Do they like for me? I'm detaching myself and saying, listen, you're ones and zeros, you're nothing more than a toaster, you know. Really, you're reflecting and curating human thought.

SPEAKER_02 15:10

And then it does have that kind of get off my lawn kind of feel too.

SPEAKER_01 15:14

Yeah, that's what I'm saying to the AI, get off my lawn, get off my digital lawn. So, like, what help me uh frame that, help me understand how the uh digital natives are shaped inside digital, what are the what are the aspects of how they view it? Am I off track here or are you following what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_03 15:34

No, I am I am following you, and I you you you're on track. I think this I one of the things that we as we explored this with others that I as I was looking at cross-cultural uh engagement on this, is that this for one is not just in the US, it's not just a West, Western thing. Um I found one study found that 96% of kids in India have exposure to smartphones at the age of 18 months old at least. So this is an effect I we've seen whether they're behind a firewall in China or they're in Europe or they're in Africa or different places, when we have we give them access to these things and they're immersing themselves in it. And as we now have AI that now is being sewn into everything, it starts to have that feel that it is a companion in a lot of ways. I think when you're what we've already seen in in studies, and I think even practically that people they're longing um connection and they're longing to have like answers, they're longing to have guidance. You know, they're trying to, we talk about you know, formation, like you're trying to figure out who you are, who should you be. And if you have access to something that will not judge you, and that will basically work to please you and to help you, and to you can ask anything, it's not gonna judge you, then I think now, yes, they're going to press into that. They are asking questions, they're not just asking about schoolwork, they're asking about girls, they're asking about life, you know. Um I a Barna's study was pretty interesting because the the AI portion of it for Gen Z, they've they found that that most Gen Z are very open to asking about religion, about life questions, about so many things of AI that it's it's gonna shape us. You know, I think algorithms I'm almost seeing as that's history. That's like yes, those are there, those are shaping, but hello, AI is actually like another like a another friend, a parent, an influencer.

SPEAKER_01 18:08

Yeah, um I see my grandson's um they're wrestling around with my my daughter, their aunt, and uh Eli is the oldest, and he said, I'm a robot. And um Sarah said, What does a robot do? And he said, Hey Google, what does a robot do? And so like I I see you know I AI is gonna form people's op their opinions and their uh and you know using using uh a language model, knowing what it is and how to uh watch for bias is you know you kind of really need to know about your topic before you start because you can tell where it's shaping and um it um it also like uh I I use AI quite a bit and um one time uh my chat GPT made a reference to something that clearly came from another thread. And I and I did not have it installed in any of my persistent memory or anything. I asked it how how it knew that, and it said, Oh, it's just word prediction, and you know, it's just this uh you know probability. I'm like, no. That's too specific. Very specific.

SPEAKER_03 19:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:42

And then I have this tool I use uh called uh legis uh legitimacy laundering diagnostic that actually used that prompt a lot on news articles and anything that Matt Tullis says just to check to see where people are smuggling in values as facts, and I made it run its on itself, and it admitted that it had laundered and it had changed the topic. So, like what the whole point of this is to say kids really are gonna need outside formation, they're gonna need formation to understand, you know. I think the big question ahead is what does it mean to be a human? Yeah, if you ever saw that movie iRobot where Will Smith is talking to robot and he's like, Can a robot write a symphony? Can it can it create a beautiful painting? And uh the answer when that movie was made was no. But the answer now is uh yeah, you can. But the robot asked backward back to him at that movie, well, can you do that? And so when when robots and when AI is doing things that we normally thought of as human, or like how the general populace considered what made humans special, they're gonna ask what makes humans different and distinct now that machines are doing what they do or uh previously only could do. And um that that really makes a an ontological question, an epistemological question. And what it means to be human is a theological question because we are we are not the product of what we do or what we produce, we are created in God's image, and in of itself, I think like Francis Schaefer said whatever man is at his worst, he's not nothing. Because he's created in God's image, we are all. We all bear that. We all it's not just creativity or what we it it we find our ultimate um center point in our relationship with God. That's why man is sinful and broken, is because they're disconnected from their creator. So talk about that, like as far as like identity and uh what it means to be a digital native and you know what's what's their uh how do they perceive identity right now?

SPEAKER_03 22:30

I think that's that has been one of the areas that we've really tried to to understand. It's not something that like a a digital native is going to be able to tell you, but what we do know and what I've I've come to understand is that we're creating almost hybrid cultures in that whatever a person's birth culture is, they're also like in this digital space creating another culture that is hybrid that we don't yet understand because it is this mixture. And so their identity, I mean, we all search for identity and belonging. I think it's core to when we're here, it's like, why am I here? Who am I? You know, you've you've you've touched on that, you've talked about that. And the lens that I've started to look at this is that is what is going on when we look at what digital natives are doing. When they are joining a community and then exiting, when they join something that they committed to and then you know they're gone. Um, it's part of that formation of identity. Like, do I belong here? Am I accepted? Is this going to help me figure out who I am and what I want to be? Am I going to answer these life questions by being in this? So, you know, it's not a you go here, you do this on social media, the whole thing of exploring, whether it's through gaming, through um, through social media, through whatever kind of digital communities or or conversations and and uh small groups and whatever, it's it's a lot about that kind of curating that identity. Um but it's it's it's so difficult for them because it's so complex. You know, we have so many influences, so many, so many things that are coming at them that for them to work through that, I feel like is it's almost like this thing that's just spinning and that like you're going down a drain. Um, you know, I I think that's where I see the chaos is just trying to form this identity, and you've just got nothing but chaos around you.

SPEAKER_01 24:53

Right.

SPEAKER_02 24:54

And it seems like uh if and and maybe we're talking AI too much, but it seems like that they're leaning into technology rather than actually having real relationships, which could affect the birth rate, because it's a whole lot easier to engage with a machine than it would be uh a wife who has feelings and and uh is not as uh empathetic to you as a real human being is. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_03 25:27

It does, but I think we have to look at for for a true digital native, we almost have to try to step into their shoes where they don't see again these things as outside of them or outside of reality. It's it's all real. I I um so like one one example is that I've I've used this many times is if you've got a friend, we you you start off the the podcast with a question like do you know anyone that you've only met online? And if you have a friend that you really only engage online and they've deeply hurt you, and then you also have the same situation of a neighbor that's you know two store two doors down, and you ask them like which is real, which really hurts and hurts more, and they're the same, the kind of wounds and that kind of thing, and even some of the joys and laughter can happen on both. And when you now introduce this AI into this mindset and this worldview that all of this is real is real, then it becomes real too, and it doesn't feel like necessarily a substitute. I'm not saying, you know, like I think you go to it because it's safe, but you don't go to it because it's a substitute or you're trying to avoid it. It feels real. I I think that's the thing that we're grasping with. Like as me as a pre-digital native, I have my view of what's real is these things are very distinct. You're a you're a toaster, you're not real, but to them, there's a realness to it. Even though they could cognitively say it's not human, I agree with you on these points, it's still real, it still engages with me and answers my questions.

SPEAKER_01 27:14

You know, there is uh also signals that we track with Inside Futures Labs uh related to loneliness among young people. And then uh young people trying to retrain their brain by uh abstaining from anything digital uh so they can try to get uh reboot their um attention span, which is kind of a technical way of looking at their own mind. But they of course they do a TikTok video of them doing that, so there you go.

SPEAKER_03 27:47

Right, it's just natural.

SPEAKER_01 27:49

I think the loneliness and fragmentation is real and and people are struggling. And like, as I mentioned earlier, the horizon model, like if this, what you're describing, Mike, is horizon one, and uh what is the transition period look like? Is this uh some of it, some of these things where people start reasserting their humanity and their embodied experiences and try to break away from the machine? Uh or as technocratic people often uh assert that they're just going to just dive into the machine, plug in their brain, and join the matrix. And so, what does horizon three look like? What we're transitioning to what? Uh I know in foresight we try to consider multiple possible futures, so like we're not just predicting, but what where do you see uh that transition period H2 look like horizon two? And then as you look into horizon three, maybe it's 10 years horizon two, maybe it's 20 years horizon three.

SPEAKER_03 28:58

Yeah. Um I think just to kind of press into the pre-digital native kind of view of things, we like I tend to want to see things as black and white, like you you aren't very digital, then you're all digital, like it's gonna just press in. So I don't agree with this idea that everyone wants to be fully digital. Um I look at augmented reality as an interesting example of maybe something practical that to me speaks to that H2 where we want to still be in the world, we want to see the world, we want to touch and smell, and we want to be around people, but we want this digital layer that feels right, it serves us, it gives us deeper insights, it it allows us to know and experience things, to be creative. You know, there's a lot of about agency and creativity that is baked into all this because you can do whatever you want to do in essence, right? Particularly whether you do it in a fully digital space or you mix it into the real world. I mean, my uncle has a 3D printer with you know all these colors and things on it. Like he can print anything. And I think about how physical and digital, like our ideas are aren't hindered. So that H2, that you know, H2 Horizon 2, I definitely think about this augmented reality where we just have this digital overlay and this this connection into and this blur, but we don't we don't segment.

SPEAKER_01 30:41

Right. Yeah, do you think there's a sense of um where um so AI where a AI and um virtual overshoots um humanity and where where humans are and it harms them in so example uh one signal was um this young little Japanese girl had a little AI that she talked to all the time, and then uh you know, as things happen, they're electronic, they break, and it broke. She was devastated. It was like her friend had died, and actually it was so sad that the AI, you know, it's on this last little bleep, and it tells her to carry on, basically, go on with Albi. I'll be okay. And then uh the happy ending of the video was dad got another one and fixed it or something, which is not the ending of the story. I I think it's it's uh an example of this overshoot idea where technology has outstripped humans' ability to keep up and and and understand who they are. And you know, here we have this young kid, and she she's shaping, she's learning. That's when her her formative years are with this basically chatbot. And uh I think of the further we get into robotics and the more AI is integrated with that, the confusion that they will have. And how how where do you see that going as far as like education and you know, people you know, I don't see people like doing what, you know, like well actually I saw some of us kind of pushback on on the idea of just digital online learning was this teacher who takes his students, gives them assignment, and sends them into the library to find in in the books, and then the kids are surprised that they can find, you know, they can use books. And then, you know, a lot uh uh there's some kind of um kind of a fallback or a pushback or whatever toward this analog stuff of people where people are wanting books, they're you know, they they don't want all their experiences to be curated. They um, you know, don't want every relationship they have to come through digital. Is that just me, wishful thinking as a person who used to, you know, like Matt, uh get kicked out of the house and drink out of the garden house? Yeah because there's nothing else to do until the street lights come on. He's drinking a Mountain Dew right now. It's not Miller like that for me. But um, so uh what kind of environment are we creating and uh what uh what what do you see how do you see that fitting in? Am I specifying too much?

SPEAKER_03 33:37

Yeah, no, that's uh you you brought up something I've been thinking about lately, especially say my wife um uh in Asia, she worked at a school, so international Christian school, and they're international in that there's like up to 36 different countries represented. Wow there. So you've got lots of backgrounds, and you know, it's not uncommon that the the child in the school could speak English, but the parents do not. Right. So there these aren't just like westernize him ever. And the things that she encountered with those kids are across the board. Every every one of those 34, 36 different cultures, these kids are are much the same in attention and uh exit anxiety, just that a lot of the influences and things that we thought were um, I guess things that we'd expect from kids that that that no longer were there, that the kids are just different. And my wife has started uh working in a school here, so one one culture basically, US, um uh with middle schoolers, and she was helping them. They were supposed to, they're researching something, and the kids are supposed to Google and find articles on it, and they struggle with it, and she was just really amazed, like, why are they struggling with this? And she was helping one, and she would Google just the top the person's name that she wanted to know more about, and she was like skipping over things, she wasn't actually getting to the point of what she was searching, and that really got me thinking. I started looking at things that I have have explored in this, and when it comes to education, I think we she and I both agree that it's the critical thinking. We we're assuming that because they are fluent in technology in a way, it's a different fluency, and there's a whole literacy that they're missing. Like that's where the Google and that kind of thing, because they are used to touching screens and working with apps, and they're not they're passive and intuitive about it, but they're not analytical. They're not coming up with what is my question I really need, like what is my purpose and my deep question and using technology well. So I think we're potentially in trouble in that we are meshing just this unprepared student, you know, population across the world with technology and thinking because they can use tech and they're using it in certain ways that somehow like we're both scared of the technology, right? And we want them to like we want them to feel the grass and we want books and that kind of thing, but then we're also trying to prepare them for the realities of the world. And I think all that the the mixture of that is is not working, and you know, other things are contributing to it, or like Google auto-completes thoughts, it finds things, so it's like we become very passive, and I um being able to have things that aren't making you passive and making you in more engaged, and that's the I think that's really the tension there is because for digital natives, they're for one, they see the world as open book. I can know anything at any time. So why do I need to memorize this stuff? Why do I need these types of skills?

SPEAKER_04 37:19

Like right.

SPEAKER_03 37:22

So and I I I also was talking with my wife, like, what is encouraging this too? And it's not just parents. Parents are encouraging this I guess agency, this this ability or this situation where you're not judged on what you do, you're just judged that you did something. I made an attempt at things. You know, we used to be more judged at, did you get the right answer? Did you follow the right steps? Is it correct or incorrect? Now it's like, did you get a good effort effort? Did you try? You know, like, are you trying? And let's let's reward that. And technology is almost rewarding you trying. You try, okay, but here's the answer. I'm just gonna give you softball pit, you know, soft pitches over and over. Do you think that makes them less um competitive? I I think so. In the end, we have to ask those kind of questions, you know. And and is it are there countries that are still opening books and they're going out on playgrounds and they're doing different things or getting out? Are they going to be more competitive?

SPEAKER_02 38:35

So basically, what you're saying is that we have upward basketball to to to blame for this. Everybody could at least travel ball.

SPEAKER_01 38:49

So uh yeah, so the this is fascinating how um, you know, they had this generation, you talk about Generation Z is probably the first real digital virtual natives. Then you have the uh Gen Alpha, which is coming up. I think the youngest Gen Z is probably 17 or so. And so you add 15, 20 years to their life, you know, somebody do the math. Let me get my AI to do the math on that. And then you you add like the like my grandsons, they're six and uh four, and you know, you add 20 years to their life, they're 26. Um what do uh what kind of adults that we have? Will there be a point where uh people the digital fatigue sets in? It's like if everything's digital, everything's mediated, everything is controlled, um won't will people will that reach a brittle point where people say, you know, enough of that. Let's get outside and touch grass. Let's do the let's um I mean it could like it's sort of like now when people are you can have any kind of music you want without any crackles and pops, but we have a good friend who like loves his vinyl records. Um one of the I think one of the things that drives that is with so much change, so much crazy, volatile, uncertain, complex, ambiguous VUCA world going on, people want grounding. They want something that feels grounded. And those experiences in our div in our early years uh were uh maybe we bias ourselves toward the analog because of that. What will and I think a lot of people are looking for grounding even now. Young people are you know with the idea of kind of detoxing from the in the technology and um you know learning to talk to people and um have conversations that aren't curated. Um will they go that way or how what what kind of describe what it looks like to minister to people in that in that those adults that are forming now, like not just the generation as they go through this transition, but whatever it's transitioning to, what do you what do you where do you see that going?

SPEAKER_03 41:30

Um well there you know, there already are some trends. You you you touched on it lightly there. There are some trends where there's a little bit less digital use among uh the young ones. Uh some of the stats that I've seen is some preference to in-person time away with friends as opposed to just always online. Um it's hard to imagine like a shift, you know, back to just where we're majority offline. Um you see that across the generations too. You know, that I think if the what was it, the anxious uh anxious generation book and some of the studies that were in that, and one was people in their 60s down to you know age 10 are all spending less time with friends. So it's not just uh you know these young, young people, they're they're not doing it right, you know, they're they're in the future they're just gonna be more digital, and every you know, the older ones are gonna um spend more time in person, but I think we're just also affected by the ease of connection.

SPEAKER_04 42:42

Right.

SPEAKER_03 42:43

In a way, it helps us to be connected because a grandparent can can watch a kid's graduation acros, you know, across the country where before they just had to maybe have a phone call and talk about at the end. They can actually see what happened and maybe laugh at something that and and share a story. Feel like you you've connected with that moment, even though you weren't there, you can still laugh about something that happened there that you both saw, whether you saw it in person.

SPEAKER_00 43:09

Right.

SPEAKER_03 43:10

So I think we'll we'll continue to have those types of things, but uh this this idea that uh we're just gonna get, in my opinion, there is an emptiness, like we because we have all these senses, we want to use them. They've we we desire to have touch and and smell, we desire to to be around a campfire together and have that smell and to taste the s'mores and to to laugh and that kind of thing. So I I just don't see that going away. But the the reality is that we are so dependent on technology. And just as I was talking about these middle schoolers, if they are gonna, when are they gonna get critical thinking? When are they gonna get the skills that allow them to put technology? Down, they're just we are not baking that in. So I look to a future where we're just dependent on it. So it's not necessarily that we choose to be in it all the time, but we choose to be dependent on it because we just are. And the fast pace and the complexity, like you mentioned, this VUCA world, you're gonna need it. It's your, you know, it's your like your space suit within all that's going on. It's got your air, it's got your dials that you can read and know what's going on. You've got some jets to help get around and and that kind of thing, because it's it's gonna be dangerous to live without it. You're not gonna be able to do it.

SPEAKER_01 44:38

Right. I think uh a thicker uh anthropology and um teaching uh people about um what it means to be human, um, as well as what is what is real and what is not real and what is true, how truth is uh uh discovered and revealed. Those are issues I think that no no uh pastor can go wrong by finding ways to uh de depth to add depth to the formation. And while it's easy to do sermons whipping them out through AI, um really it's not the platform when everybody can do it, like um everybody can write a book today. Everybody can, because I just use AI. But uh when everybody can do it, everything is slick, everything is so tight, what you will notice is oh, that has typos in it. Or uh I that's why I think it's really where the church can shine is at the table, around a table, a real live face-to-face table with people, versus the platform where everything is per production-oriented and slick and you know, yeah uh thought leader kind of sermonologizing. Those I think have their place, especially for boomers who are always about uh self-uh actualization and they just really crave that kind of stuff. But uh next generation can have those insights at their fingertips constantly, but what they can't have at their fingertips digitally is uh face to face, and why I can, you know, I think that is a part of the future. Um I I want to be temper that with my own bias because that's where I you know where I came from. Uh but um anybody have any last thoughts or summaries or rejection of my entire frame?

SPEAKER_03 47:12

I'd build on it a little bit to say I think not to get so caught up in the digital side of things and trying to figure out like you know, our history is use digital to broadcast, use digital to reach people, whatever. Look deeper at what's going on. If they're trying to figure out their identity and they're forming that, then don't do events to placate their love for digital or anime or things like that. Find ways to help them work through that identity formation that is within the church, with within, I don't mean the building, but within the church, the body, within those things. I think that's the key. If we can figure out how to stop doing programs for people and events or putting them in boxes, but involve them, collaborate, mentor. They they desire to be mentored. They desire this like this input into their lives and help them through this identity formation where they're not forming their identity through AI telling them or social media and navigating, you know, different types of things. To me, it it comes down to that and not like how we use technology. It's like, let's this is where they are. Let's stop being, like you said, performative and polished in that. Let's let's come alongside them. And I think that's where that's where I think the beauty is, and I think that's where ministry could really make a difference.

SPEAKER_01 48:56

Wow, this has been great. I I think uh we're on to something there with uh how ministry leaders can get off the platform, get down in uh in the mud with everybody, real life, cross-generational contact will really help kids. Like the other day I saw one of the signals was uh kids at church camp. Uh before church camp, they couldn't really recognize what uh people's emotions were or what what uh their their facial expressions meant uh through a test. But once they spent a few days at church camp, they got it. They improved their their ability to recognize and contact with little ladies and people and you know, even dogs will give them you know that opportunity to see to kind of place themselves in the universe and not be overruled by just uh technology. Right. Uh uh Matt, as we um, I mean Mike, as we leave, uh do you have anything you'd like to share as far as like how people can get in touch with you or learn more about what you do?

SPEAKER_03 50:09

Um I have a the easiest thing is I have a website, um mikemaribella.com. Very simple. And through that they could contact me. There's it goes through the breadth of things that I uh I've done uh related to this. I've posted some articles on LinkedIn and that kind of thing, just exploration. But yeah, that would be a way if they wanted dialogue.

SPEAKER_01 50:33

Well, be sure to look Mike up, uh Mike Mirabella. Uh he's also um getting involved in a lot of this uh foresight stuff, and we hope to be collaborating more as we go and uh kind of sharing ideas, not just in the digital world, but also just uh general foresight signals and stuff like that. We'll stay in touch.