Teaching Is Legacy Podcast
Teaching Is Legacy is a podcast dedicated to honoring the profound impact of educators—past, present, and future. Rooted in the rich traditions of Black education and the transformative history of HBCUs, each episode uplifts the stories, voices, and innovations of teachers who shape communities and change lives. Through conversations with educators, leaders, and alumni, we explore how teaching becomes legacy: a generational force that inspires, liberates, and redefines what’s possible for students everywhere.
Teaching Is Legacy Podcast
Bridging the Digital Divide: HBCUs Promoting Digital Equity in Teacher Education
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This conversation explores the intersection of digital equity, technology, and education within Historically Black Colleges and Universities (HBCUs). The speakers discuss the digital divide, the role of HBCUs in social activism, and the importance of preparing future educators to navigate and advocate for digital equity. They emphasize the need for community engagement, cultural representation in technology, and the responsibilities of educators in bridging the digital divide. The discussion also touches on the future of HBCUs in technology education and the legacy they aim to leave for future generations.
Welcome to the Teaching is Legacy Podcast, a podcast honoring the powerful traditions of Black education and HBCU educators who have shaped generations. I'm your host, Eugene Pringle. From the earliest Black teachers who turned resistance into classrooms to today's teachers who continue to uplift, affirm, and transform, HBCU educators have always been architects of possibility. Here, we celebrate their stories, the triumphs, the struggle, the brilliance, and the enduring commitment to community. Because HBCU educator preparation is more than instruction. It's cultural preservation, liberation work, and a legacy that continues to open doors for countless black students and leaders. Welcome to the place where black education lives, breathes, and transforms. Welcome to the Teaching is Legacy Podcast. On this episode of the Teaching is Legacy Podcast, I'm joined by two distinguished guests, Randy Bumpers, a doctoral student at Howard University, and Director of Student Success at the American Association of State Colleges and Universities, and Isaiah Lucas, also a doctoral student at Howard University, and the Executive Director of Housing and Residence Life at Norfolk State University. Together, they explore the intersection of digital equity, social activism, and the evolving landscape of education in the context of the fourth industrial revolution. Join us as we discuss the digital divide, the role of HBCUs in shaping future educators, and the legacy of educational activism. Before we jump in, if you all could take a minute to just introduce yourselves, who you are, where you're from, what you do, whatever you want to share with listeners, and then we'll jump right in.
SPEAKER_01Sounds good. I guess I'll jump in. I'm Randy Bumpers. I am a third-year doctoral student at Howard University. My research focuses around the intersection of digital equity, artificial intelligence, and teacher education. I currently also work as director of student success and learning experience design at the American Association of State Colleges and Universities. Happy to be here.
SPEAKER_00And I will follow. My research interests really center around how the HBCU students are on the front lines of activism, both on campus and off campus. And what does that experience and what students engage in activism mean to who they are and who they become? Currently, I serve as the executive director of housing and residence life at Norfolk State. And so super excited to be here and engage in these conversations.
SPEAKER_02All right. Thank you for being here, gentlemen. So I kind of want to open this conversation to talk about what is the digital divide. I think some of us think we probably know. I know a little bit more now from reading the chapter, but for the listeners, how would you contextualize the digital divide?
SPEAKER_01I would define the digital divide as the gap between technology, competency, right? Or not even just competency, but also access, right? So many of us, I'm from a very real, rural town. So I can attest just from life experience that you know access to high-speed internet isn't the same in rural Alabama, for example, as it is in Washington, D.C. where I live now. So so many kids go, or so many students, I would say, kind of go through their childhood without, you know, some of those more advanced technologies that that uh some kids in you know bigger cities may experience. But that's also true for teachers, right? That may not have the background to use the emerging technologies. There's so many new technologies coming out now with artificial intelligence and blockchain and quantum computing. And so many of us just don't know what those technologies are and what they mean for education. And so I would say bridging the digital divide means building up the competencies of our teachers, our students, and our practitioners around these technologies so that you know we have equity or I would say ownership in these technologies as well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'd also add that I think being being knowledgeable and conscious of what um Randy's talking about, this digital divide is so important because I think when new technology emerges, so many people are like, what is this? This is cool, or this is really scary. But I think one feeling, one emotion, one empathetic mindset we need to develop is as this technology advances, who's being left behind? Um, who's being left out of the conversation, who's not recognized, who's not by you in the firm in this technology. And so I think it's being abreast of being an interrogator of technology as well.
SPEAKER_02I like that because y'all talk about competencies, right? Then you talk about who's being left behind, which makes me think about inequities that we see so much, especially in black and brown communities, which we'll talk about in a little bit. I feel like being in the education space for so long, there's always this notion between like technology for teaching and then technology for thriving. And we see that so often when you all are contextualizing the chapter, you talk about moving this from the context of what we see during the fourth industrial revolution. Can you talk to us a little bit about why the context of the fourth industrial revolution and how does that set us up or set you up for the mode of inquiry that you all took around this chapter?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so for those that may have never heard the term fourth industrial revolution, it really just refers to our current era of rapid technological advancement. Think about artificial intelligence, virtual and augmented reality, automation, blockchain, quantum computing, and other emerging and evolving technologies that are really fundamentally changing how we live, work, and learn. These technologies definitely have an impact on teacher preparation. Today's classrooms are becoming increasingly digital. You know, after the COVID-19 pandemic, we've seen an increase in hybrid, remote, and technology-enhanced learning environments. Also, tomorrow's workforce will expect an even higher level of digital fluency and digital competencies. Um, you know, a lot of the students we're teaching now grew up with iPads or tablets or, you know, smart devices since they were toddlers. So they're digital natives. And I, you know, I think we should think about preparing teachers intentionally in that context because they have to be able to navigate the rapid integration of these technologies, but also interrogate these technologies critically. Otherwise, they risk enforcing or reinforcing inequities that plague our communities as opposed to addressing them. For HBCUs in particular, their educated educator preparation programs have a responsibility to ensure that candidates, teacher candidates are not only digitally literate, but also critically conscious and culturally responsive, aware of how these technologies intersect both race and justice.
SPEAKER_02So we talk a little bit about like the premise of the book focuses on social activism. And honestly, I'm in a space now where even since then China evolved to using more of the term social action, which I think a lot of this is grounded in. I tell students all the time, like when I think about social activism, I think about a person like myself who I'm not necessarily going to be protesting or, you know, kicking a door down or burning a building down. I'm more of a social action person where I am aiding in those efforts, but it's more of like what can everyday people do to do these things. I think when people think about revolution, we always think about revolution being big and it being, you know, this kind of short-lived thing where I think it's long-term one, but I think there's so many ways that we can actually do that. And when we think about resistance and innovation, I feel like it is one of the ways that we can do social action, specifically at HBCUs. So, how do you see the push for digital equity as a part of the legacy of educational activism or educational social action?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I start by saying I think the very existence of HBCUs is resistance. I think it is activism. And we can go all the way back to the inception of these institutions. You know, white America, white supremacy, their thought was we allow these students to read and do things where they go against us. And so they build institutions with the mindset of to further white supremacy, to teach slaves how to be better at their crafts on the plantation. And so that was not what was actually happening. You know, Jelani Favors and his books talk a lot about second curriculum. And so I think the second curriculum was the start of how HBCU's very existence is resistance. And I think even today, when you think about the anti-DEI movement, legislation to push away from educating folks on black education, HBCUs, all we have to do is exist, and it is resistance because that is who we are. And so I think that HBCUs, time and time again, have proven themselves to be resistors, to be change agents. And when you think about when HBCUs are being created, there were PWIs that already were in existence, that already had technology and faculty and were advancing it. So you almost find yourself as an institution in the catch-up game. And so I think it's so important for these institutions to call that out, to speak that truth to power, um, to talk about how those inequities and state funding, how all of those contribute to this lack of. But I think it's also important for HBCU leaders to look at technology not as a luxury, because when the more and more we look at technology as a luxury, I think we find ourselves in this anti-deficit framework that we don't have because of this, but to leverage partnerships, to think about Comp and State has a uh Eagles Connect program. I think they got five million dollars from the Biden administration to bridge the digital equity divide in Baltimore. And so there's so many examples of HBCUs using their framework as resistance to challenge the status quo. But I think one of the core focuses and goals of this book is to let other HBCUs know like this is something that we all need to get behind and start advocating for and start pushing this agenda. Um so to your point, I think it's embedded in our framework and who we are. And I think now more than ever, we have to meet the fierce urgency of now.
SPEAKER_01Plus one everything Isaiah said. But uh, you know, also thinking about like the sheer numbers, right, of HBCU in this space, right? HBCUs play a dual role, right? They they graduate a disproportionate amount of black educators. I actually I think our book sites that about half of all black educators in America today claim an HBCU as their alma mater. But they also play a significant role in uh graduating a large share of black STEM professionals, and these are the very individuals that are designing and developing these technologies. So this makes HBCUs really critical to that intersection of STEM and education. We think about digital equity when you think about education. So to my mind, this isn't new. This is kind of like the next chapter in a long-standing tradition of HBCU activism to Isaiah's point, right? It's about ensuring that these future teachers have not only equipped with the technology, but know how to use it in ways that that disrupt inequities, right? And so that's what HBCUs have done. They've over year over the years build, resist, and lead in this space.
SPEAKER_02Just thinking about this, like as I'm hearing you all talk, right? Like think about how HBCUs have permeated the community, right? When you're thinking about this digital divide, and Randy, as you this new chapter or iteration of what this is, what do you think our role is and bringing the community along this journey with us?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think we I think we have to engage our communities, right? Because it's so easy as an institution of education to only focus on the, you know, your constituents in in in terms of like the students or the faculty or the staff. Um, but you also got to look at, you know, the communities in which you are situated, right? Howard is situated within the Shaw community and within DC. Other HBCUs are are similarly situated, you know. Some HBCUs are are land grant colleges, some are, you know, state colleges, and so they have you know ties to the to the state um um you know uh priorities, right? And so, you know, as you think about these institutions sometimes as what you can call maybe stewards of place, like bring our communities um you know together to push this agenda, right? Even if you didn't go to HBCU, nine times out of ten, you know, you have an uncle or aunt who went to HBCU or a cousin who went to HBCU. Um if you're you know Black America, you probably know someone you can call that that has that HBCU experience. So, you know, HBCUs are have a very broad reach in that way. And I think we should definitely continue to leverage that reach, right? To be leaders in this space. Um and simply because you know, they're getting HBCUs are getting a lot more interest from private and federal donors and funders around AI and and emerging technologies and and even digital equity in education. And so, you know, I think the moment is is now to uh really really engage our our communities, our broader communities, not just those that sit on our campus.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'd also add that that that town and gown model, how you rare, like HBCUs subscribe to that to the fullest because I think our institutions are nothing without the community around us. And I think that in many cases, where HBCUs find themselves contextually, geographically, the community around them looks for them to be beacons of hope and moving things forward. And so, how do we pour back into communities that have been the backbone and stabilizers of our institutions?
SPEAKER_02I graduated from Bethune Cook, man. When I'm sitting here thinking about technology, the way that we thought about it. At the time we had like the ISTE standards, and so it was always hard to think through the alignment of programming, how do we include technology and digital consciousness in our programming in a way that's not, it felt sometimes like it was like just an add-on, like we have to have this here, so let's do it. But I was always thinking about how do we do this in a way where it's not necessarily prescriptive, but in some cases supplemental or integrated seamlessly in what we do, right? And I'm wondering what are some of the things that you all are doing in your educator preparation programs? And like, how are you preparing future teachers to be both digitally competent and socially conscious?
SPEAKER_01Our colleague, Dr. Catherine Norris, she's the current chair of Curriculum and Instruction. She was our co-author on this chapter. Um, she wasn't able to be here today, but her contribution to the book really dove into about how Howard in specific, our educator preparation program, is addressing these inequities. And you talked about the ITSE standards. Howard also follows the standards from the International Society of Technology and Education. And we actually also signed a digital pledge, a pledge for digital equity. And that pledge basically talks about how the university pledges to prepare teachers to thrive in digital learning environments, preparing them to use technology to pursue ongoing professional learning, also preparing them to use and apply frameworks, uh, to accelerate transformative digital learning, equipping all faculty with continuous uh expertise in technology and learning, and lastly to collaborate with school leaders to identify shared uh teaching competencies. Uh, there's also another framework that Howard has operationalized called the TPAC framework. You may be familiar with, you know, it's technology, pedagogy, and content knowledge. And so taking all those different forms of knowledge, right? You know, a lot of times we we know for a fact that faculty they're gonna have the content knowledge. They went to school all these years, and sometimes they even have the pedagogical knowledge, you know, from professional development. But the technology is is a piece that often gets kind of um I guess skipped over just because you know it's something that, you know, if you're digital native, then you know, sometimes technology comes easy for you. If you're analog native, maybe, you know, maybe it's a little bit more of a learning curve for you. But at Howard, technology is is treated as a cross-cutting competency, not just like a standalone thing. The teacher candidates or the pre-service teachers, they have ePortfolio projects which spans throughout the program and kind of helps them uh document their growth while showcasing their technology integration skills. All of this is done through a culturally responsive kind of asset-based pedagogy that's grounded in black education and and obviously urban education. Um, and there's multiple courses uh that teacher educate that the uh pre-service teachers have to pass around uh instructional technologies as well. And so I think Howard does a really good job of trying to integrate it in multiple places. They have, you know, mentoring aspects there as well, professional development for the faculty faculty. Isaiah and I both sit in the uh higher education leadership and policy studies program. And so we also have several opportunities for teacher uh education or faculty prep. If you want to become a faculty member, they have different programs and courses that we can take to kind of get credit and experience uh teaching in all of our classes, even uh project-based class for most of us. You know, pretty much all of our classes we have to get up and and teach the class at least once during the semester. So uh there's a lot of that uh going on. And and you know, post-COVID, you have no choice but to use PowerPoint, use Zoom, and and you know, try to add like some kind of uh a lot of times we try to add some type of technology like Kahoot or something like that into the course as well or to the presentation as well, just to kind of get folks interested. Um, and it's also a good way to document, you know, as you are, you know, using technology integrated in the classroom, it helps you like document knowledge and it helps with assessment as well. And so, you know, I think uh how how it is really moving forward in that direction. Obviously, there's a lot of room that we have to grow, as most institutions can say that as well. But I'm proud of where we are now.
SPEAKER_00There's a lot of crossover as well between the higher ed program and our K-12 teacher preparation programs. And so in the faculty, they teach sometimes in dual programs or classes that serve requirements for dual degree requirements. And so one of the things I can say is like consistent throughout all the faculty in the school of ed is that they teach us to question everything. And they teach us to question who's being left out, what voices are not being heard. It teaches us the game of chess, right? When you think about these historic legacies of inequity, like it teaches us that these things are not accidental, right? These things are on purpose, they were they they're rooted in white supremacy.
SPEAKER_02And so I think one of the things that Howard does a great job of is producing folks in that school of education who question I'm understanding that not even all HBCUs, like all institutions may not be set up to like integrate in this way and to really do this and thrive in the way that Howard does, right? In the way that you're preparing teachers and educational leaders and higher ed professionals. What would you say to an institution that may not be prepared through some of this? Is there if there's one thing you could tell them to kind of get this process rolling or starting, what one thing do you feel would be the most important?
SPEAKER_01I think you need to kind of start where you are, but you have to kind of know where you are. So it starts with some kind of assessment. And I know that I'm I'm an education practitioner, so I know we send surveys all the time, and so people get survey fatigue or assessment, but maybe it's something where you bring folks together and and just understand what their needs are. Food usually helps, you know, bringing folks together in a town hall over some over some dinner or something. Um, or something like that, but just really assessing the needs. Like we're doing a study currently where we're asking um faculty, you know, and staff even what are the needs that you have. Um, and so some of that research will be coming out, so uh a little shameless plug for once once that dude comes out. But really understanding what we've what one of our preliminary findings is, you know, all of the teachers want some type of training and guidance, right? Um, because it's more than just them knowing how to use the tools, it's also them being able to assess student work that may be AI generated or generated through some new technology. How do you assess that type of um content when uh students are now oh, is it cheating to use AI or you know, does it have implications for critical consciousness or that kind of uh a productive struggle that you have when you're writing a paper, right? Teachers need to know how to access that. And so what we're finding is that teachers really are wanting some like low-level, low-lift training to say, okay, what are the standards, what are what are the expectations of the institutions around using these technologies? How do we, what are you know, the like the entry-level skills that we need to know to use these technologies? And it's not always about like I I understand like HBCUs in particular have historically been underfunded. And so it's not always about like going to buy the biggest, you know, AI system that they can find from a vendor, but there are some free tools that you can, you know, just get your uh folks trained on and just get some competencies up um so that they just feel confident, right? One of the biggest, I think, um, factors whether a teacher adopts, you know, some of these technologies is their comfort level in using them. And so one of the things I would start with is just assessing what the needs are and and getting some base level, like whether it's an external PD budget or if you do something internally if you have that capacity, but uh getting some kind of training and professional development for those faculty who are interested in learning about these technologies.
SPEAKER_02I like that. I feel like it takes us from this notion of like operational, and then you move from operational, how do we take that to actually maximize the learning experience? And when I talked about earlier, like just technology for use, I can I remember being in so many situations, for instance, like with COVID, it became more of a people like, yeah, I'm using the technology and it was great. And even that had issues with equity. I remember having students who were like, I can't jump on because I don't have internet at my house, or you know, I'm I'm using my cell phone. I I and it's it's simple things that you don't think about. So I used to take attendance with a QR code when I was at Bethlehem Cookman. And what I would do is at the beginning of class or whenever on the slide deck, I would have a QR code in the corner for them to go and do attendance. And I remember students kept like not like checking in for attendance. I'm like, why are y'all checking in for attendance? And they would say things to me, well, I'm on my phone doing this. So I can't. So it's it's thinking about all those things. So I think that becomes really important in the way that y'all are thinking about operationalizing it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I would just add just to reiterate my my earlier point, when you think about folks who may not have the same access and resources, um, one of the things I'm learning and doing some research into HBCU activism is like we're the most successful when we frame our needs as rights and not luxuries. And so when you think about looking at technology, looking at these apps, looking at these iPads that these white schools get and these black schools don't get the same access, we we can't frame that as a luxury. We can't frame it as, well, they have it, so we need it too. We have To frame it as look, this is an educational right. Our students have to have this in order to be up to date, to be fully educated and fully have full immersive learning experiences. And so I think it's really about reframing our mindsets to look at this technology from a social activist perspective. It's not just a luxury, but as a right. And when you advocate things for a right and you want it as bad as you can breathe, I do believe change starts to happen.
SPEAKER_02As bad as you can breathe. I love that. So thinking about like the criticality of digital equity, like what in these efforts do you think are rooted in cultural and racial representation, especially for black students and communities?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So I think that these efforts are important to be critical because the technology itself isn't always designed for us. Right? There's multiple ways that the technologies that we use are biased towards towards us, or towards black people, I should say, you know, from from how they collect data. So think about all the new AI tools that are that are emerging, you know, ChatGPT and they have like Magic School, they have Khan Academy, you know, all those things. These are just the free ones, right? How what data, you know, my question is, what data went into building these tools, right? Was the data itself biased, right? So like you know, even like user interaction, right? How were these technologies deployed in in, you know, at HBCUs, right? Even thinking about like, you know, I mentioned earlier there's been a lot of interest from the federal government as well as from private uh philanthropic organizations that you know are looking for HBCUs to, you know, build AI models and build technologies. But I would very much caution HBCU leaders from just accepting money from just anyone because you have to think about your institutional mission. You have to make sure that your sponsored programs are aligned with your your institutional missions, right? Because we want to make sure that the technologies that we employ, the technologies that we create, and then the technologies that we deploy for our campus is were built and operationalized for equity, you know, for ownership. You know, I use the term equity when I say when I say equity, I think about financial equity, I think about ownership, right? We want to own the technology. We don't want to build the technology for others, right? Howard just came out with a a data set for black linguistics, right? Before that, there were hardly any uh linguistic data sets that you know focus on how black folks talk. And Howard, you know, just created that. So now we have some a tool to build a uh Chat GPT that doesn't, you know, label our language as deficit, right? You know, it's it's something that is built by us for us. And so I think we need to really be cautious and we really really need to like interrogate the technologies themselves, just because it's easy to just pick up Chat GPT and like ask it, hey, what should I do? And it gives you an answer, and you just blindly follow it, not knowing what data was used to build to create that answer, right? So yeah, I really think we we have a responsibility, not only as the technologists like myself who are who are you know working on the models, but also just folks, you know, entry-level just using the AI models. You also have a responsibility to interrogate what you're using and how you're using it and how it affects the students that you serve.
SPEAKER_00And to that notion about like HPGs having the responsibility. I remember mentoring some some 12th graders at a high school for my fraternity, and I remember they were all sitting in the room on their iPads, and we had to go pick students to mentor guide and develop for the day. And I remember talking to a student, and the only thing he was doing on his iPad was looking up sneakers, listening to NBA Youngboy, which I love as well. And the teacher he got in trouble for that. And it was that moment that I realized that like access to the alone is an equity because you can't just give somebody a device and say this is for technological advancement and enhancing learning experiences and just expect them to go, right? When you think about culture, you I remember we had this SAT app in high school. I'm dating myself, but we were studying for the SAT, they're talking about golf clubs. I don't even know what a golf club is. I'm from Newport News. We don't have golf clubs. So when you think about that not reflecting of who I am culturally and racially, there's already a disconnect there. The same example with the student in the classroom, we gave him an iPad, but we didn't tell him how to use all of these platforms and ChatGPT to take what he's learning in the classroom and applying it. So I think it's also letting folks know that access alone is an equity. I think it's preaching that. Um, you can't just give folks devices and connect people to broadband or enhance technology or or do, you know, give people AI credentials. There's education and more things to follow behind that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So speaking of that, I think you all kind of talked to like the roles that we all play in those processes, right? And I think it's important for individuals to understand like what their roles are in that process, right? Like when I'm listening to you all, it's evident that you're well-versed, you're articulate around this topic. But for those who may not be, like, what does that mean for them in their development or even developing students, community members, whomever, around this technology, right? And some of these digital acumen that we use. So thinking about those roles, like, what do you think the roles are of individuals in preparing people, be it teacher educators, instructional designers, school leaders? Like, what is the role of these individuals in narrowing some of this digital divide, if not all of it, if that's even possible?
SPEAKER_01Right. So I would consider myself an instructional designer for sure. That's my that's my education background. And also I I've done some teacher education work as well, work with school leaders. So I really would say that the main thing that we want to do is we want to model equitable tech use. And you have to find out what that means for you and your institution. And what does equitable tech use mean for you and your institution? Does that mean we need to, you know, adopt some type of software? Does that mean we need to do some type of training? But I would caution away from, you know, just like I would caution away, uh caution from, you know, just kind of blindly using the technologies, I would also caution against from just like blindly rejecting the technologies as well. So there is like a balance that you have to kind of play because you don't want to you don't want to get left behind. So you want to model equitable use, right? Teachers, when you're talking about even things as small as like syllabus development, what does your syllabus say about AI? Just because right now I'm finishing up my doc program and some of the classes that I've taken, you know, there's been very, very wide differentiating syllabus policies. Uh, you know, some faculty would say, you know, hey, AI is the future, you're gonna you're gonna need it in your job, so use it as much as you need to, but just continue to critically assess it. You know, and then I have some syllabus syllabi that I look at and they say, you know, uh, we do not use AI in this class, you know, it it it causes uh a decline in critical thinking, you know, it makes students lazy, and so we just won't use it. Um if I detect it, if it's more than 20%, uh if I detect more than 20% uh AI generated content within your paper, you're gonna automatically fail. And you know, so that's a big difference, right? And for a student, that's disorienting, right? You can go from one class in the morning to say, I can't use AI at all, and then this class in the evening time that says, We encourage you to use it because you're gonna need it. So I I want to make sure that you know, I would specifically for school leaders, I would encourage you to have some sort, some sort of guiding policy around it, you know. Um that both is critical of the technologies, but also accepting of, you know, when the technologies are are needed for learning competencies, right? Um on top of that, you know, you want to also continue to center culturally relevant pedagogy in tech instruction, right? Um you know, as an instructional designer, we build training, so and school leaders are usually the one facilitating those. So making sure that we're providing access to quality training and resources, using formative technologies like uh ePortfolios to assess learning, deep, deeper learning, and then continue to kind of stay aware of those digital biases and teach students how to critique it as well.
SPEAKER_00I'm plus one and it emphasizes everything Randy said, and I think one other thing that we need to do a better job at is to us as institutions, us as faculty, and prepare future teachers. I think the mindset needs to be that we're not just consumers, we're also creators. And so we don't have to wait for Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk to create the next big thing. We can be creating that in these HBCU classrooms today. We can be we can be educating and motivating teachers to educational learning platforms for black students. Like we don't have to wait to be consumers to learn and catch up. We can create our own things right now. So I think it's just changing the mindset and shifting the narrative that we are not just consumers as it relates to education technology.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So I think the good thing and what we all can agree on is like when done right, when things are equitable, we have an opportunity to advance black communities, communities in general, right? And I think again, what I appreciate about the way you all contextualize this and talking about the digital divide specifically as a means of social action and social activism or as a vehicle for that, is that it gives us the latitude to be able to produce and to think differently in some cases about this in spaces where people may not have done that. And thinking about that, we understand that in our communities, our marginalized communities specifically, sometimes there are consequences when these things are not addressed. And and in some cases there are things that we don't think about often. But what do you think are some of the consequences, specifically in marginalized communities, when digital inequity goes unaddressed in teacher education or how we teach educators to educate and be fruitful in the field? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I think it's a very slippery slope, is and it's a kind of a compound effect that happens, right? Because, you know, think about the students, you know, from the students' perspective, right? If our mission is to prepare teachers, you know, to prepare students, to prepare for, you know, life, right? I I think about it like teaching to the test, right? And I'm not talking about a standardized test, I'm talking about the test of life, right? Teaching to the test. We have to teach to the test, right? Any job description, if you go on LinkedIn or ND right now, you're gonna see, you know, uh candidate must have competencies in Microsoft Word, Microsoft PowerPoint, Microsoft Excel. It won't be long, in my opinion. I don't think it'll be long before they're gonna add Microsoft Copilot, you know, Chat GPT, and other things like that to competencies for to get a job, right? To you know, most anyone, you know, seeking a job after college, you know, those type of competencies are generally on um, you know, base, you know, basic, it'll it'll it'll say basic proficiencies, and you know, they're gonna expect you to use PowerPoint Word, and now they're gonna expect you to use Copilot and Chat GPT and Anthropic and things like that as well, because these technologies are becoming so ubiquitous. And so I I think to to really like drive the point home of why it's important is you know, our students that attend our institutions, if we uh decide that, you know, AI is just bad, um, or you know, technology is just bad and we're just gonna avoid it, we're gonna underserve our students. And they're gonna enter the workforce behind students who, you know, went to a school that maybe embraced it. Um, you know, if if a student, if if you have the same degree, say you're a teacher, teacher, you went to a school that, you know, says, We're gonna teach you all about using technology in the classroom, you know, and you're up against someone who they didn't have that much technology, in the interview, you're gonna be able to tell, right? You know, how are you gonna integrate? What happens if uh if, you know, God forbid, what happens if there's another pandemic or there's a snow day and we have to have a remote day, or if there's, you know, some level of hybrid work, hybrid uh modality that's in the classroom, or some level of blended learning, or technology enhanced learning environments, right? Those students who have been taught around digital digital literacy are gonna have a leg up. You know, they say, you know, I think one of the biggest fears around AI is like job displacement, which that that scares me as well. But we don't talk about the amount of jobs that AI is gonna create or how AI is going to potentially take the job that you have and give you more time back, you know, make you more uh effective in your job and give you give you more time back. But there's a saying that a lot of technologies use is like AI might not take your job, but someone using AI more than likely will. So I think the call to action is clear. We have to engage in this technology, but we also have to do it consciously.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. My mind is going back to something my grandmother used to always preach to me. And she used to always say, you have to teach people how to treat you. And I think it relates to this notion of the digital divide, because I'll give you an example. When I worked at an institution, well, the current institution I work at, I had funded for a position and I had to fail a search, and I won a whole year without having someone in this position. And my president said to me, Okay, you're asking it for it, you're asking for it again. You want a whole year without it for still good. I think we can cut this. And so when you think about that from a technology standpoint, the more and more we're silent about this digital divide, we teach society that it's okay to leave us behind. We teach society to, you know, that notion that HBCUs had to do a lot with a little. Like when we are silent about these inequities, we allow that narrative to continue to fester. Same thing in a relationship, right? You know, I I told my girlfriend that I don't like going on dates. But I really do. I just didn't want to go on that particular day. But that became how she operated with me. Okay, I know you don't like dates. And so when you think about that, I allow my girlfriend to treat me like I don't like dates, right? And so HBCUs, we have to start treating people like what we're advocating for is a right and not a luxury. And so I think HBCUs have to treat society, or we have to treat our folks in the White House down to our state politicians how to treat our institutions and having access to digital resources is just not gonna cut it.
SPEAKER_02When you think about future generations of educators, not just teachers, but school leaders, instructional designers, what happens if I'm in a teacher prep program, educator preparation program, and I go into a space, and I go into this space, this space being a classroom, a principalship, a superintendency, whatever it is, and I am needing to advocate for the necessity for students in my school, in my district, in my community who don't have access to these resources. How do you propose we or you all would show them how to advocate for those things? Like how to get the things that they need in a way that's not just we need these tools, but this is why we need these tools.
SPEAKER_01You know, when I was in the classroom, I leveraged this was before AI, generative AI was a big thing, you know, back in 2017, 2018. Students, I would use like um Paradeck and things like that, where students can follow along with the slides on their phone. And, you know, students they're they're already like got their phone under the desk trying to text anyway. So just take your phone to desk, and we're gonna put the slides on your phone as well, so you can follow along, you can interact with your phone. And so, like, students love that, and that increased the interaction in my classrooms for sure. And so we have to ask the students like, what do you want? What do you need? I think a lot of times we get the notion that this these students are young, their brains aren't fully developed, they don't know what's best for them, they don't know what they need. But from my experience, these students are very articulate and they know that the world is changing, and they know that they're gonna need skills and competencies that we necessarily did not need to enter the workforce. But we have to be able to learn them and then teach them in a way that that uh helps them, you know, just actualize their life and be and be successful.
SPEAKER_00Randy took a lot of the words out of my mouth. I think the only thing I would add, the easiest way I've learned in my years as an educational leader to advocate for resources is to do trial runs. I think that school leaders should really, you know, take the opportunity. Maybe we don't embrace the technology school-wide, but maybe we take a random sample of fourth and fifth graders, right, who uh who have varying factors that play a role in how they learn. And maybe we implement it in these two classrooms and compare through a data analysis standpoint to these two classrooms to demonstrate this was the impact on student learning outcomes, on standardized testing results, etc. The long-term impact on graduation, so that when we can we can talk to a multi-generational audience to say, here was the impact of us embedding this into our fabric, into our framework, into our practices, and here was the impact because I think that makes the case greater, um, and it allows people to understand the direct impact of these things on student learning experiences in the classroom.
SPEAKER_02It's interesting because I know that there are models of school districts that do this really, really well. There are school districts who are like, hey, we understand the inequities of technology, everybody gets a hot spot. Like that's something that my schools did. So that stuff becomes really important. And I know sometimes in the higher education space, like we're not there yet, but it's like this kind of equal thing between how do we move this from theory to practice and who are the practitioners that actually do this really, really well. So let's go back to like the comprehensive nature of HBCUs and the role. And you all covered this some, but what makes HBCUs uniquely positioned to play a role in shaping the future of technology integrated justice-centered teacher education? What uniquely positions us to almost be the expert on this?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think the number one thing I would say that gives HBCUs the expertise is just sheer numbers, right? We've been graduating more black teachers than any other school, um, HBCUs in specific. And so we have, and this has been happening for years. HBCUs, you know, many of them were founded as normal schools, right? So teacher education has been central to the mission of HBCUs, many of which since their very inception. So I I think that it's just years and years of of, you know, figuring out what works and figuring out like what are the specific needs of the black population, not just students, but the the not just the students that attend HBCUs, but the students that attend the public schools and at that and charter schools that teachers that graduated from HBCUs either are principals or either are our teachers there, as well as again HBCUs and their their STEM focus and their digital equity, right? There's so many HBCU research, AI research centers and uh digital equity centers of research and you know, centers for human-centered intelligence and you know, all these pledges that that that around digital equity that HBCUs are really leading. I think I read, well, I did read Morehouse College, uh created uh the first courses in the metaverse, right? That's crazy, right? And so I think HBCUs are already doing it. You know, I don't think that you know it should be has to be has to be a fundamental shift of how we're operating, right? It's uh it's just building on, you know, the foundational blocks that HBCUs have built in years prior. It's just another level to it. It's it's really our desire to um actualize black life in a way that you know the United States, America, the world has not really seen or imagined, at least in many, many years. I think HBCUs are are really going to be a power player in the future, right? We also know that on top of you know the historical disproportionate rates of graduating black STEM black teachers, right? HBCUs are now getting more interest from students than ever before. Like most HBCU leaders I talked to today in my work are saying, hey, you know, what do we need to do about our rising enrollment? You know, we have rising applications. How many HBCUs had record applications last year? You know, during the pandemic, when every school had, you know, declining enrollment rates, HBCUs did not see that, right? And in fact, some HBCUs saw gains during during COVID when students were not going to when you know graduates were not choosing college as a first um first choice. Um and so now that things have stabilized and even the institutions that you know were seeing enrollment declines are now kind of leveling back off and getting back to their pre-COVID enrollments and maybe gaining a little bit, HBCUs are seeing record attendance, record enrollment to the point where they have to buy out hotels and buy out apartments for housing. And so, you know, I mean, my call is for the for the states and for the government to to fund these institutions appropriately because now more students are wanting to go there. Um and they've always had the pedagogy to teach these students in the way that they they know how to teach them, right? Not only it, you know, HBCU is graduating more students, right, of color, they also you're also more likely to be successful in a STEM degree, right, as opposed to going to a PWI. You're more likely to finish school by going to an HBCU. And so I I think HBCUs are in position, right? We just gotta have we just have to look at the interdisciplinary like partnerships that we can have, the partnerships that we can have with industry, the partnerships that we can have with public schools, charter schools in our area, partnerships that we can have with local businesses, partnerships that we can have across departments, right? What does it look like for our STEM department or our AI centers at our HBCUs to partner with the education department to do faculty training on AI competencies so that we know that that trickle down effect happens, where the teachers then are able to move on and go into the classrooms and then teach the students around digital literacy, and then those students you know mature. Through high school and college, and they can, you know, thrive in the workforce because they have these digital competencies, competencies that are demanded in this new what we call fourth industrial revolution in the 21st century. But yes, uh, I think HBCUs are really um really in position. We just have to continue to innovate and find ways to partner with each other and across HBCUs, even, right? I said departments, I said local business, but like partnering through HBCUs is a is a good way, right? There's coalitions, there's Third Good Marshall Fund, there's UNCF. So there's there's ways that HBCUs are kind of already doing this. Uh they just released a uh UNCF and the UNCF and CCA just released a report uh around HBCUs leading the AI revolution. And so there's a lot of emerging um things happening around that. We we just have to stay steadfast and and make sure that we are aware of the things and keeping ourselves abreast to all of the moving pieces that are happening.
SPEAKER_00I would also emphasize everything that Randy shared. I think one of the things that HBCUs have is we have like that moral credibility because this has always been a part of our story. Um, this notion of doing a lot with a little, and I think it it makes the difference. If we can do a lot with a little, what could we do with what we already deserve? I mean, I think while HBCUs, I do think we should be the driver based off our moral institutional credibility, but I think there's some folks that need to be in the car with us. I think about other minority serving institutions, I think about tribal colleges, Hispanic serving institutions, and the PCs. Like all of those institutions need to be in this car ride with us. But I do think to Randy's point, HPCUs are uniquely positioned to meet the moment.
SPEAKER_02And we always have been. And I think that that's the beauty of it for me. We always have been. And I don't know, like, like, even this conversation is just so amazing to me because it it helps me to imagine a future that we haven't seen and how we're preparing our students for careers that aren't even there yet and markets that aren't even there yet. So that's that's what helps me to like like that's what really gets me excited about this. All of this, and for those who may not have read it, of course, this conversation to me scrapes the service. I feel like in the book chapter, you all go like really, really deep into this, into frameworks, into really contextualizing like what this looks like, not only from a historical standpoint, but thinking even future, how we continue to contextualize this and grow. And when you think about your chapter and the legacy of what you wrote and the work that you're doing at Howard University, like what legacy do you want this work in this chapter to leave for future black educators and particularly those who are navigating a rapidly digitizing world?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I think if you if you haven't read the chapter, the bottom line of it is, you know, educate yourself around technology. If you're an educator, um, especially if you are an early career educator or a pre-service teacher or a teacher candidate, or you're just about to go into college, you know, for an education degree. Um, this is gonna be increasingly important. Um, it's gonna make you uh more viable on the job market, it's gonna it's gonna give you more um opportunities to really engage in different ways. Like, like I said, schools are different now, right? We have metaverse universities and um we have digital, you know, we it's not all brick and mortar anymore, right? We have remote teachers, and so I think the more you can immerse yourself, the more you can learn about how to integrate technology into your teaching, the better off you are gonna be in a in when when you start your career, right? You know, if you're if you're you know a teacher that's eyeing retirement, you might be able to get away with, you know, you know, kind of just you know, learning the bare minimum of it. But but if you're an early early career professional, if you have a long time going, you know, you you really want to make yourself what I call AI proof. So you want to you want to make yourself competent enough that an artificially intelligent teacher won't be able to uh supplant you. So you make yourself valuable in the in that space. And so saying all that to say the legacy that I want this this chapter to leave is a legacy that you know HBCUs and black people in general have always been leaders in this space. You know, it's not I'm not speaking it from a definite space like we're always behind, like we've always been leaders in this space. I just think the narrative that that gets talked about sometimes is, you know, HBCUs lag behind, black folks lag behind when it comes to digital literacy. And I I challenge that notion. And I say that HBCUs are leading and black folks can lead um in you know creating these tools and teaching with these tools.
SPEAKER_00I I would say my my agenda with the book chapter was very different because I'm no tech nerd like Randy, you know. I'm real big on activism and protests. So that was my angle, and I think one of the goals and legacies I hope that this book chapter has is first of all, higher ed is getting ready to experience some wicked problems. I think we are only scratching the surface now. We're seeing presidents being forced out of their positions. See, we're seeing boards um subject themselves to this really right-wing agenda and making sure that the institutional leaders practice that and carry that out. Like we're seeing higher ed already showing us what the future is gonna be. And it's gonna be scary, but I think one of the things that I hope this book chapter reinforces to leaders is that we gotta roll our sleeves up and not flinch. We gotta be somewhere between level with a made in a knuckle of your butt. We gotta be on go. We gotta have our fist balled up because we're not new to this, we're true to this. And so higher ed, HBCUs to be exact, we have shown time and time again when there's a resource disparity, we conquer it. And so I think as we get ready to embrace some really wicked, strange, out-of-the-box, unorthodox problems in higher ed because we're seeing that it's starting now. We I'm on HBCUs to remember, like we got this, that we we can make it through this, that whatever divide is, we will bridge it. When we think about the folks that came before us, we stand on the shoulders of giants. Um, and we are our ancestors' wildest dreamers. So I want this book to be a reminder that whatever problem comes our way, we will conquer it. Whatever the future holds for us, we will still rise above. I know there's this book that Dr. Carter talks about. It's called Tell them We're Rising, and I really love that notion. And so I think most of all, the legacy I want this book to leave, this book chapter to leave, is that whenever we're faced with the next great challenge of higher ed, is we are rising still, that we are still gonna rise above um and defeat the odds. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02You just made me think, maybe I need to start saying like, knock if you want to make it. Like, like I just like that's probably where we are. We are when you were saying that, I was like, that that is that's very true, very true. I think even though your your intent though, like how you talk about how both of y'all approach it work differently, it spoke to me as I'm listening to it. I was writing it down just now because it's this notion of how do I inform, how do I give information, help people understand the context, the pretext to this. But in addition to that, you know, how do I still move this as a means of social activism and protest? And I think in the origin for me of this book, that that is what it was about. Like, what is what is the pretext? Like, what is the theoretical, what is the practitioner work, but how is that always inherently grounded in protest? So I think the way you all did this, and shout out to Dr. Catherine Norris as well, it was this beautiful like pairing of all of those things to not only tell the story, but to help us understand where we're going, how to get there, but to understand too though, how this is inherently activism or social action or however we contextualize it. So I really, really like that. All of this said, the year is 2035. Actually, the old I get doesn't feel like a long time from now anymore. It probably would have years ago. But the year is 2035, and you all are at the helm of an institution, um wherever it is. When we think about an HBCU educator preparation program, and I'm using preparator for teacher, leader, whatever it is, in 2035 that has fully realized the goals of digital equity, what would that program look like from admission to graduation? That's a great question.
SPEAKER_01And you're right, 2035 doesn't seem that that's like what two one or two strategic plans away. I guess it you know, I I I firstly want to maybe push back a little bit just against the uh notion of fully achieved digital equity because I do see it as a moving target. Right, you know, we can set goals around, you know, we want to, you know, accept a certain amount of students, we want to uh, you know, from the it from the acceptance and admission, we want to already have you know digital equity competencies embedded from orientation, you know, to your you know, graduation counseling, right? But I would say that at that time in 2035, there are going to be another set of uh issues right around this that we want to continuously improve. So I would say, you know, institution looks at their strategic plan and they understand, hey, you know, what do we want in terms of digital equity? And we're seeing a lot, I look at a lot of strategic plans in my work, and I'm seeing a lot of institutions add some sort, some sort of emerging technologies. They they say AI because that's kind of the big thing right now, but they always say AI and emerging technologies, right? Because you have things like blockchain and quantum computing that some folks don't even understand. If you do understand quantum computing, let me know because I don't. But so uh, you know, we look at, you know, admissions value like potential, not just test scores, right? Because that's a whole thing around like you know, a data-driven place, right? You know, if we think about test scores, we don't look at just test scores, but we look at a holistic student, right? You know, all students, we talked about all students, you know, having access to devices and and connectivity and and then ongoing support. Culturally responsive tools that that that personalize learning for each student. We have that capability now. We used to have to standardize things, like everybody takes the same test, but now you know you can assess a student on the on their entry level when they come in and you can see that they're interested in cars or they're interested in football, and all of their math can be about, you know, car speeds or football stats, right? When you teach them averages. So personalizing learning for each student, right? Having these technologies that students can immerse themselves, thinking about AR and VR labs that bring history and science to life for teachers and pre-service teachers and for students, right? Having a faculty model that is critical of tech integration. Uh, I talked about our ePortfolios earlier, right? But making sure that students graduate ready to design equitable learning, not just deliver curriculum, not just deliver a pedagogy or or you know, having them ready to really engage with their students in a way that is futuristic, right? I think about Afrofuturism or Afro technology, right? That's something that I think HBCUs can really strive towards, right? Having a fully afro-futuristic vibe, um, especially in today's kind of environment and and kind of like the vibe that's that's going on in society right now around like AI and you know it being a ubiquitous thing. And so, you know, overall, I really think that fully achieved is a high, high bar for me. So 2035 doesn't seem realistic for a fully achieved, but I would say in 2025, in 2035, the goals that we've set in our 10-year plan, and then we're we're reassessing, right, where are we now? What do we need to do for the next 10 years, you know, in order to continue to gain equity or as I always say, ownership over this technology.
SPEAKER_00I think from my angle, from an activist perspective, what I love to see in 2035 is that these education programs at HBCUs have embedded interrogation, equity, advocacy within their program. I think no longer are the days where we can just stick to the script of educator programs. I think no longer are the days where we can trust our community leaders, our secretary of education, our politicians, state senators. No longer are the days where we can trust these people to be our fierce advocates. So I think our educator programs need to make sure that that's embedded in the tapestry of the program, that folks know how to aggregate, they know how to question policy, they know how to interrogate systems and processes. I think that our educators need to have that skill. And, you know, one of the things that I preach a lot of in terms of activism for educators is this tempered approach. Deborah Myerson, I'm getting nerdy, but she has this theory of temper radicalism where you you advocate for big change and small increments. Whereas our students can be as radical as they want. But us as educational leaders and teachers, we have a job to keep and a badge of secure. So we have to be radical in a temperate way. And so I think the more and more we can embed that temper radicalism framework, um, small incremental change, knowing how to advocate for policies, question in our framework of educators, I think the more and more we we work towards a just society.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. All right, so I want to close out with this question, brothers. What do you want your teaching legacy to be? Good question.
SPEAKER_01I guess I could go ahead and start. So uh for just a little bit of personal life here, I have a two-year-old daughter, right? So when I think about my teaching legacy, you know, I want to leave a legacy that that that when, you know, they say, Oh, Randy had a part in this, like, it's something that even when I'm gone, you know, my daughter is proud of, you know, knowing that her father built. Um, I'm very, very, like, being in education makes me very critical of like the schools even that I that I that I enroll my daughter in, right? Making sure that, you know, she's getting the best education that she can possibly get, you know, making sure that the school grades are good and you know, she has opportunities both excurricular and within her curriculum. You know, I come from a very, very rural area and uh from a working class family, right? And so I think about those students that are still in Jackson, Alabama, which is uh, like I say, a small town, less than 5,000 folks. Um, I think about those kids who, you know, are there and you know the most advanced technologies have not yet made it to those corners of of the country. All students need to be connected to the world. The world is more connected than it's ever been just by sheer power of the internet. And when you think about a resistance to digital equity, right, like who doesn't use the internet anymore? These new tools, in 20 in 10 years, like we asked, these tools, you're gonna be asking the same thing about these new tools as you are about the internet. Like, you don't you don't know how to use the internet, you don't have access to the internet, but it is there's gonna be a uh a fundamental shift in how how education is uh delivered, a fundamental shift in the workforce and the competencies that we need for students like entering the workforce. And so I really want my legacy to uh to be that of you know reaching the corners of society where digital equity is needed the most. Part of equity, the definition of racial equity is uh giving giving students or giving people what they need and making sure that those who need it the most get the most help. And so that's what I want to leave. I want to leave a legacy of abundance, abundance of knowledge, abundance of of ownership. Abundance, that's powerful.
SPEAKER_00I I would that's powerful. I would say my my teaching legacy. That's a that's a loaded question for me because I have so many thoughts. But I would say in this moment, my teaching legacy would be to always be up to something. I really do subscribe to this that quote that a mind is a terrible thing to waste because I think in the classroom we get so caught up in preparing, you know, even this move to job readiness, like we are so caught up in making sure our degrees align and matriculate well into the workforce. Always have to be up to something. Jelani Fay was in the second curriculum, like, I need to teach you how to be ready for the job, and also to be ready when people start being racist and and and canceling DEI. Like, I need to prepare you for that end. Um and and I really, really stand on the shoulder of a giant, a black giant on Bell Hooks, and her notion of teaching to transgress. I really want to further that commitment. Like, we don't just teach for teaching, right? We don't just teach to check a box or to ensure our students pass the SOL test, but we teach to transform our communities, and we teach to liberate our people, um, and we teach to change the status quo. So I think I want my legacy to be a continuation of the Bell Hooks legacy that to really actualize what does it mean to teach to transgress, right? What does it mean to always be up to good trouble? Um, and what does it mean to interrogate and question thanks?
SPEAKER_02All right, gentlemen. Uh I just want to personally say uh thank you all. One, not only for a great conversation, but for a great contribution to the profession. I think this is something that we've heard about. And I've been an educator for I think it's about 15 years now. And I love when new ideas are emerging and we're thinking differently and in an innovative way about how we're doing the work. And like I said, I was just transfixed on this chapter, not only when you submitted the abstract, but when I was able to read it and actually really sit in it and understand that this is more than just using a computer. This is actually about how we use technology and how we bridge this digital divide for the sake of liberation, ultimately, right? And so, you know, I I just appreciate you so you all so much. And even chatting with me this morning, you could have been doing anything else, but you're here with me. Continue to do great work. I'm excited to see the work that you all will put out in the world and how you will transform communities. And probably even more excited to see you all wrap up this last year at Howard University, which will be a good one. So, again, thank y'all, and thank you all for listening.
SPEAKER_00Thank you.