In the Business of Goosebumps

The moments people remember most aren't always the biggest, they're the ones that make them feel something. In this episode, Nancie McDonnell Dougherty sits down with Matt O'Neil, Chief Marketing Officer at Legends, to explore what it really takes to create unforgettable fan experiences. 

From the first touchpoint to the final walk out of the venue, Matt shares why the most memorable brands aren't built on spectacle alone, they're built on thousands of intentional decisions that put the customer first. Learn about why Matt believes Legends is "in the business of goosebumps" and why the strongest brands focus on getting the fundamentals right before chasing the next big idea. 

Matt also reflects on the leadership lessons that shaped his career... from learning to let go of control to building creative teams that challenge one another to do their best work. Learn more about Legends and their work creating world-class live experiences at ⁠⁠legends.net⁠⁠.

Curious how customer experience, brand strategy and culture come together to create lasting impact? At Noetic Consultants, we help leaders align strategy, culture and credibility to build organizations people trust and remember. 

Learn more at ⁠noeticconsultants.com⁠.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:06

This is the Metamorphosis Moment, a podcast from Noetic Consultants. We are researchers, strategists, trainers, and coaches obsessed with how change actually sticks. On our show, we have candid discussions with leaders who are embracing change, and we work to uncover what they're doing to help others achieve similar success. Just like with our clients, we bring our noetic secret sauce to each conversation. We dig into the messy middle, finding human behavior and leadership factors that are making a difference, and sharing practical guidance that you can use in the moments that matter most. I'm your host, Nancy McDonald Doherty. Let's fly. In our lifetimes, there are certain moments we really remember that are really exciting. The game-winning play, the sold-out concert, the standing ovation. And behind every unforgettable live moment like these, there are actually thousands of decisions that shape a fan's experience from the first moment we arrive to the moment we leave. And according to our guest today, great marketing at these events is about creating this feeling. And we can just call it the goosebumps. What we remember most isn't the score or the set list, it's how that experience made us feel. Today I'm joined by Matt O'Neill, Chief Marketing Officer at Legends Global, the company behind some of the world's biggest sports venues, concerts, and live experiences. Having led marketing for iconic organizations like the Dallas Cowboys and the New York Red Bulls, Matt shares what it takes to build brands people don't just recognize, but truly remember. In our conversation, we explore customer-first leadership, the power of storytelling, why great experiences start with getting the fundamentals right, and how learning to let go can make you a stronger leader. Let's jump in. Hi, Matt. Welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_02 2:16

Thank you so much, Nancy, for having me. I'm really excited to be here.

SPEAKER_03 2:19

So happy to have you on Metamorphosis Moment. You have led some really famous brands, I'll say, you know, including Dallas Cowboys, New York Red Bulls. And now you're bringing that experience to Legends Global. And it's and it's a different kind of a job. I have to imagine we're gonna we're gonna delve into that. So a little bit of context for listeners that when you attend a big event, like a live event, a ball game, a concert, a show, we go into those things as the concert goer, the spectator, and we're thinking about what we're gonna do and how it's gonna go. And we really don't think about all the behind-the-scenes things that go on to make that experience happen. And that's where Legends Global work is. So it's it's multifaceted and it's very much in making that experience everything it can be. And it includes so many different aspects that you're a part of, but you don't necessarily think through whether it's like food and beverage service, the merchandising, bringing in sponsors, the premium seating, the ticket sales, all the things that make up that. So as a marketer, this adds a whole other layer of complexity. And you're talking about a live experience. It either happens well or it doesn't, and you gotta kind of improvise as you go. So, Matt, I just want to start in like a really basic place. I don't know how much our listeners will know about Legends Global. So tell us a little bit about what the organization does and your role.

SPEAKER_02 3:51

Yeah, sure. Um, so we are the premier partner to the world's greatest live events, venues, and brands, right? And so we're your partner. If you own a venue, if you are a franchise owner in sports, if you are a municipality who owns a convention center, if you are just a very wealthy individual who owns a building in a city, an arena, a stadium, a theater, we can be your partner, your silent partner to bring the absolute best in guest experience and the absolute most in revenue generated for you. And that's how, you know, we think about it. We are a fan first and a partner first organization, and that's how that's how we go about our business. I personally am the chief marketing officer here at Legends. Uh, I've been here about uh a little over three and a half years, and it's an interesting transition for me working for consumer brands for a long time.

SPEAKER_03 4:36

And you're going right where I was gonna go. Tell us about that difference. I mean, three and a half years in, so you have your legs under you a bit, but I'm sure every experience is is different. What do you what have you noticed in moving from consumer brands to this role?

SPEAKER_02 4:52

So it's it's interesting as uh as the partner that we are, we represent a lot of brands. And so I do a lot of B2B work, of course. We do a lot of B2B to C and we do some B2C.

SPEAKER_03 5:03

B2B to C. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 5:05

Yeah. So if you think about it, you know, we'll sell a food and beverage contract or partnership with somebody or enter in a partnership with somebody. And, you know, we are we are touching their fans directly all the time, right? And so that is how I would term it. It's about B2C. Now they may not know the brand Legends Global. We don't want them to know this brand Legends Global. We want them to know any of the most amazing brands that we represent. Dallas Cowboys, um, an ATT Stadium, Yankees and Yankee Stadium, SoFi, the Rams and Chargers, that you want them to uh really believe in the best possible way that that this experience is brought to you by these incredible brands that we partner with.

SPEAKER_03 5:42

Yeah. So it's really interesting then to be the CMO of Legends. How do you think about that? Because if Legends is the silent partner, but it's in pursuit of having these brands be seen in the best light, how do you think about that in your role? Because oftentimes CMO of fill in the blank company is trying to make the most of that brand or brands.

SPEAKER_02 6:06

Right. If you think of a CMO of a PG, they represent a lot of different brands. I would say, in some respects, not not dissimilar. We have to proudly represent all these different brands, and it's amazing. And it's actually from a marketing standpoint, like exciting. It keeps it fresh.

SPEAKER_03 6:22

Yeah, because you're always marketing different ones, right?

SPEAKER_02 6:24

Yes, and it's it's amazing. And we have this uh this amazing ability to touch fans and to wow fans in a way. Um, really amazing guy in our company named Harvey Lister once told me that we're in the goosebumps business, and so there's like a special privilege in providing this goosebump level experience for all of these fans and guests around the world. And so it's uh it's a really cool experience and really different experience, but you you do literally change your hats a bunch of times. I mean, I've been on calls with guys who have internal people who are wearing a partner shirt and I know they're about to get on a call and then swap shirts for a new shirt because they're they're not changing partners, but they want to represent and they should, and this is what we do. We represent our partners in the absolute best way. It keeps it exciting. Uh definitely no shortage of work, I'll tell you that much as well.

SPEAKER_03 7:13

I started my marketing career at the Leo Burnett company in Chicago, and all of Leo's quotes and guidance stayed on well beyond. I didn't know him personally, he had passed by the time I joined. But he was always all about our clients' brands. You know, we should be utilizing their brands, loving their brands, knowing their brands intimately, like their brands are our brands. So that's that's kind of the idea.

SPEAKER_02 7:37

Yeah. It's exactly right. I mean, sports is a funny thing because it's it's hard to get people to switch fandom. But when you work for a company called Ledges, we I am now a fan of a lot more teams than I thought I would ever be, because you are living and breathing and rooting for these franchises and these teams and our partners to to win. It's a real interesting uh thing. But yeah, that's it. You have to abide these brands completely.

SPEAKER_03 8:01

Fandom is fascinating, and I'm a pretty big football fan. And what I've noticed, particularly in football, but I think it's true of most, even if your team isn't doing well and hasn't done well in years, because I'm a Giants fan, so that's where I'm at. You know, you can't stop rooting for them.

SPEAKER_00 8:19

No, and with every new year, there's new hope, right? I mean, like literally stay healthy this year.

SPEAKER_03 8:25

You know, it's just right, right, whatever's happening. Right.

SPEAKER_01 8:30

Exactly. And so I can always sell hope. I could sell hope to anybody. I mean, it's it's amazing, it's it's an awesome thing to sell.

SPEAKER_03 8:36

Yeah, and goosebumps, which is which is amazing to think about. I just love that. I think it's so clear, right? It's so clear of like the actual experience you're trying to provide. And that's what people remember. I was rereading the quote, I believe it's Maya Angelo who said, you know, people may not remember what you did or what you said, but they'll remember how you made them feel. And that is the bottom line. So, in your model, you know, you have all these different brands and you have a lot of different partners. Are there things that you deliberately try not to own? You're you're going across a lot. So, how do you keep it manageable?

SPEAKER_02 9:11

Yeah, we don't own any of our partner brands. I am the more time you'll spend with me, the more, the more critical you'll understand how critical I actually can be. Um, but I am super critical of just marketing overall and brand overall and execution overall. But but we are not our partners' brands. We represent our partners' brands. And so from an ownership perspective, I certainly will will definitely, you know, influence and offer suggestions. I'm not one to to pull back feedback at all. But these are our partners' brands. If they want to make choices that represent their brand in a certain way, these are their choices to make. And it is our responsibility to represent them in a way that that makes them feel proud and makes their make connects with their fans in that way.

SPEAKER_03 9:53

Yeah. It's so well said. I mean, it's very much true in our business as consultants, we're not making the call. We make very compelling recommendations, but but whatever decisions they then make, we need to make the best with them and for them from those decisions. We can guide, but we can't decide. My brother recently moved from being a CFO to being a consultant. And so I've been talking to him about that mind shift because as a CFO, you were the decider. But when you're in a role like yours or when you're in a consulting role, it doesn't mean that you don't try to guide things. You you very much do. But then you also have to be able to roll with it if a different decision is made. And then how are you going to really help from there? It's a it's an interesting balance.

SPEAKER_02 10:39

It really is. So I consulted for about five years before this job. So left the cowboys, consulted for about five years with a bunch of different teams and and leagues and brands. And that was the hardest thing for me. It was actually great practice for the job I'm in now, but I didn't realize it at the time because uh I just assumed I'd go back maybe to a more consumer brand, but but it was great practice because I learned how to do both. And I have to do both in this world. There are times I need to guide and have a strong hand. Um, and there was times I need to try to influence, and there's times I just need to represent or protect my partner's brands no matter what. And that that's kind of how I how I think about it.

SPEAKER_03 11:11

Yeah. Yeah, well said. Oftentimes people from the outside looking in might hear that you're working with this brand or that brand. And when it's a really sexy brand, people think just how cool. You must have such a fun job. And sometimes that's true, and sometimes it's not. I'm curious about uh if whatever you're comfortable sharing, like a time when it really was that cool.

SPEAKER_02 11:35

I always say it's like people get in this business because they either are cool or they want to be cool.

SPEAKER_00 11:40

There's two or two things, and uh and I would say I would call myself I like the thinking I'm cool.

SPEAKER_02 11:50

I'm definitely the other ones. But look, so many, so much of what we do is really cool and it is part of it. Like, you know, I'll say I I um I got a chance to see the Foo Fighters in a in a building that was under 2,000 people in London a few weeks ago. Like spectacularly cool, right? You're you're on the field at uh Yankee Stadium or or ATT Stadium with the Cowboys, um, in amazing places at in in uh the Brunabayu and in Realm with Real Madrid. Like there are so many cool things. I'll tell you a Real Madrid story. Uh in Madrid and go to the VIP area and watch a game, it was spectacular, it was awesome. The stadium was beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 12:23

And those fans are just amazing.

SPEAKER_02 12:26

And they had given us what I would call like a premium giveaway. It was a bunch of pins that the represented the club. And I honestly thought very little of it. And um not in a bad way, just in like, oh, this was so nice. We go out, have a drink after the game, and someone leaves their sitting on a bar. Well, we kind of turn our backs, and a fan had like come over and opened it and was so awestruck by this gift. Uh and the person I was with gave it to them. It's like you should, they were so moved by it. They said, You you should have this. And so it's like almost sometimes you're in our position and you almost take for granted the most amazing things that we get to do all the time. Um, I try not to let it because it it is it is spectacular and awesome, all the things we're allowed.

SPEAKER_03 13:13

Yeah, it's like you I love filet mignon, but like if I were to eat it every night, I might be amazing this. Yeah. Exactly right. What I love about that story is that it made you pause to see it through the eyes of that passionate fan. I will say that I've I've had the honor of working on many amazing brands over the years, and I always get excited. But I too get excited about the ones that not as many people have heard of either, because I just find it really interesting to like learn the new industry or whatever it is. But I will say that the first one that comes to my mind that really was as much of a wow as I hoped is Nike. I always was a huge fan of the brand. I do, I do a lot of sport and everything about it, like the people, their campus, and the way they go about doing marketing, like everything about it, like dream client. Now, there are moments, right? Even with dream clients where you you go through difficulties. But I just always felt like when we first got work with them, it was like, I hope it's what I hope it will be, because I had pretty high expectations and and I wasn't disappointed, which is super fun.

SPEAKER_02 14:27

That's awesome. It's it's a you bring up a great point though. It's those are those are amazing. And when you kind of meet your heroes, so to speak, in the brand world and they deliver like that, it's amazing. But but you said it there's interesting work up and down. You know, I'm not out there, I'm I'm not out there playing basketball. I'm not, you know, I'm doing the work behind, right? And so no matter if the client is this, this, uh, you know, some amazing partner of ours that everyone knows and everyone sees, or it's a really small theater in a really small, small town, the the work I'm doing is actually fairly similar. And and we talk about a lot internally about this standard of excellence that we set across. And so uh we we really strive to do the most amazing work for every single partner. And that that's how we that's how we think about it. And I I love marketing, I love the act, I love all the things about it. And so um doing that amazing work for for big and for small is equally rewarding.

SPEAKER_03 15:18

Um yeah, and you can see too people's passion at those organizations too. I mean, sometimes we can be working on a B2B brand that only those in the niche niche have heard of, but the people inside the organization, whatever it is, we we have one right now, they're so into innovation.

SPEAKER_04 15:36

Amazing.

SPEAKER_03 15:36

And they're so jazzed about it. And you listen to them and you're like, I want to work there too. It's really great because they're you know, there are a lot of people who are uninspired in their jobs. So exciting thing. You know, I know that we are now, it's hard to believe, but like, you know, five to six years past COVID. Um, you know, the world changed a lot with that. And like there was a time when live events, like nobody was allowed in the stadium, kind of thing. And and we're well past that. But I am curious about what you see as the fan or the guest expectation today. Because I think things have evolved and and will continue to evolve. What have you seen in your time there? What do you think is different perhaps from five years ago? And and how do you need to be thinking about that in your strategies too?

SPEAKER_02 16:23

Yeah, sure. I I don't even wouldn't attribute this first thing to COVID or not, but I have just seen a general shift as we all have, just in the kind of entire on-demand culture that that we're we're raising. And I say raising it, even myself at my ripe old age, uh, where I I expect things exactly the way I want it, exactly the time I want it. Yeah, just like everybody else.

SPEAKER_03 16:44

It's the Amazon effect, right? Or the iPhone effect, where it's like right now.

SPEAKER_02 16:49

Yeah, I I don't even have to wait a night or two nights. I can get it this afternoon or in 20 minutes.

SPEAKER_03 16:53

And I yeah, do you want it between four and seven or five and ten already?

SPEAKER_02 16:57

And then by the way, once you get a taste of that, or once, as my teenage children are saying, once you're raised like that, that doesn't go backwards, those expectations only go forward. And so thinking about I will say like meeting customers' demands uh has always been a thing in marketing and and and experience that we're always trying to solve. Um but but thinking about the way it's it's the the uh expectations are going up and and increasingly so, and they're not gonna go backwards, it puts just a real challenge on every single live experience provider to provide the absolute best experience at every touch point every single time. It's not easy, you make mistakes, you know, you have to be almost a closer in baseball, you have to have a short memory on your mistakes. Yeah, let it go. That's it, let it go, look forward and and make the next one count. My consultant company was was named Ichigo, and it came from a phrase called Ichigo Ichie, and it means one encounter, one chance. And it's this concept that every single moment in life is unique, and you only get one of them, and then it's gone and gone forever. And the way we think about fan experience is like we only get this one touch point with our fan, and then that's gone forever, and we have to maximize every single one of those. And that's something that that we think about and talk about all the time. If you want to produce those goosebumps, you better deliver on those moments, and that's how we think about it.

SPEAKER_03 18:18

Is there anything that you think gets like too much attention or investment, or not enough attention or investment? Like, in other words, when you're shaping an event, you know, oh, we got to do this or we gotta do that, that you're like, actually, no, you know, that's not that's not really what people want.

SPEAKER_02 18:40

Yeah, when I was at the Cowboys, I think it was what it'd be maybe a little over 10 years ago, Mark Cuban put out this big kind of missive that essentially said, I don't want fans looking at the video board while they're watching the game on them watching the game, right? Because there's been this incredible amount of emphasis on gamifying uh events and doing all these other things. There is nothing I wanted to do more than to watch Dave growl up on that stage when I was at that Food Fighter show. That's all I wanted to do. I didn't want to look at my phone, I didn't want to all I want to do was focus on that performance. And I think when we do all these other things, and I'll I'll just sort of essentially raise my hands in the air and go wild. We're doing a lot of things in order to kind of provide this experience. I think I think sometimes people try to try to do too much. Serve great food. Food and beverage has has indexes incredibly high on people's experience in venue. Serve great food, hot food that should be hot, cold food that should be cold, keep the lines down, keep the bathrooms clean, let your ingress and egress be as great as possible. It's hard, you know. You have 70,000 people leaving a a football game or a soccer game. It's hard to get egress right. So I there's some of that stuff you you you just uh are just really difficult to uh to master. But uh you maximize on on those opportunities, keep your building really clean. If you ever walk into ATT Stadium, it's not an amazing football stadium, it's an amazing building, period. And it's beautiful and and shines, and you feel that the care that goes into that building, and and those are the types of things that uh you know that make that make a real difference in somebody's experience.

SPEAKER_03 20:16

Uh yeah, so get the fundamentals right, is what I hear you say because if if you're walking through a venue and it's like dirty, right? It doesn't matter or the food is terrible or whatever it would be. And I I think we've all probably had the experience where we're in some kind of a venue, and sometimes you're like, I don't know where to look because there's too much going on.

SPEAKER_02 20:38

Too much going on. I totally agree. And I'll just I'll pick on social media a little bit, and this isn't only in venue, of course, but outside of it. And and sometimes I think, of course, there's value in social media and and how you're engaging fans. I think sometimes we reward uh what has turned out to be one great giant brand in social media, which is like a snarky, clever 22-year-old, and we we reward that as marketers. I think we're missing, I will say. And it's not that there's no value there, but it's rarely unique. And there are some obviously social brands that are that are unique, but man, do people uh really believe hard in their own social brands and how they are incredibly protective over those, I'll say quote unquote brands, when in reality they are just noise like everybody else in a really crowded space. And so that's that's the one the one thing I'll pick on is like the shiny tool that people use a lot that that people probably overspend their time in for sure.

SPEAKER_03 21:32

Yeah, yeah. And it's a it's a cluttered, crowded space. And so just trying to be realistic and and do less and do it well. Essentially, you work in brand, I work in brand. Storytelling is such an important component as humans. It's how we attach to brand, it's how we attach to other people. It's just so gettable. How do you think about storytelling in a venue environment? Because you do have a certain time span, sometimes longer than others. Attention can be fleeting, it can be kind of fast. It's it's always physical in that space. How do you how do you think about that and shape that with clients?

SPEAKER_02 22:15

So I got my brand training from Red Bull in Austria from the Energy Drink when I was with the New York Red Bulls. And it's such an incredible brand, and their approach to brand is is amazing and awesome. They used to tell the story that, you know, if they don't have the best party at a festival, they'll close up their party and they'll go home. They use the phrase on brand a lot or off-brand. And it's just very simple. Like it's hard for sometimes hard for people to grasp on brand or up brand with Red Bull if you if you're not in it like that. But as a fan and as a as a customer and as a as a person who drinks to drink, you just feel this on brand experience all the time. If you think about storytelling, there's people coming in at every six or eight different gates, coming into a an arena or a or a football game, you're not gonna tell your complete story at every single gate every single time. That would be repetitive and and and odd. But you can be completely on brand and honestly on story every single time. From a from a signage standpoint, from a video standpoint, from an audio standpoint, from a again, even food and beverage and usher and how you're thinking about engaging your audiences, you should be on brand. Have a really clear definition of this is who we are and this is what we represent. And then once you have that definition, that can be iterated uh 50 times, a hundred times, a thousand times across a building, across a venue. And so when I think about the the proper way to storytell, it's like go be on brand at every touch point in your building and every branding moment you have. And man, that that will really deliver and resonate with fans.

SPEAKER_03 23:47

Yeah. And as you're doing that, is it is it challenging to deliver that while you're trying to ultimately serve the fans, but you also have, you know, the sponsors, and then you also have the client, and then you also have to be compliant, of course, with with the venue and what they require. Are there a lot of trade-offs in that space of what can and can't happen?

SPEAKER_02 24:13

Nope. There's just one person to serve, and that is the fan and guest, right? You serve that guest, the fans are happy, the partners are happy, the building's happy, and I always say there is so much revenue in the statement. I had the best time at the concert at Allegiance Stadium last night. There is revenue just oozing out of that sentence, right? They post about it on social media, they tell all their friends what an amazing time they had at this concert, and wow, they are coming back and their friends are coming, right? And so you think about that, serve the fan, serve the fan, serve the fan, everybody wins.

SPEAKER_03 24:49

Yeah, I think that it's a valid thing that one should pull through in any marketing they're doing, right? Because so many times we can get caught up in the company needs this, we've got, we've got certain strategic goals, blah, blah, blah. But at the end of the day, what's in the best interest of our customer or our patient, if you're in healthcare or whatever it is. One of our clients who does a really beautiful job of pulling that through and always keeping it first and foremost, they have personas and through research that we help them with, but they they make that persona sit at the table with them when they make decisions. And they are always in pursuit of that. It changes decisions oftentimes.

SPEAKER_02 25:35

Of course. You know, I did some work in the healthcare space a bunch of years ago too. It's so interesting. And and what what would come around was that a lot of the people would believe that their brand is what the outside of their hospital looks like, right? And what a difference. What it really represents is how that patient feels and what that experience was like. That's super interesting. Um and and wild to think about because we've all sat in emergency rooms for four hours before our names got called, and that's their brand. That's what that means. You know what I mean? And to take it a step further the way you guys did, and actually have personas who are actually at the table talking about that, that must be a some spectacular outcomes uh through.

SPEAKER_03 26:14

I think it really helps with that focus. But I also think that to the extent that any leadership team can think of, if they're place-based, right, that they think about it the way one might think about any live experience. So let's go back to the hospital, right? From the time you pull in and you're gonna park and how you get greeted all the way through to whatever you're having done, all of that is how I'm gonna regard the brand, starting with when I arrive, when I anticipate arriving, all of that. And I think if we were in healthcare, you wouldn't have somebody walking away saying, I had an amazing time.

SPEAKER_01 26:56

Getting my kidney removed. No, they didn't have that.

SPEAKER_03 26:58

No one ever leaving a hospital. But today feel feel cared and and and nurtured all the way.

SPEAKER_02 27:04

I I totally agree. In sports, we used to talk about that as a driveway to driveway experience. I think some people it extends beyond now, too, right? Because we're we're connecting with those fans when they buy those tickets and we're connecting with them afterwards, but that still holds. How are you thinking about what is that journey like every single step of the way for your for your guests? Whatever. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:25

And if I find somebody who does walk away from a hospital experience and tells me how incredible and how much fun they had, I'll let you know. I haven't seen it, I haven't seen it yet. I love it. At least amongst the people I'm hanging out with.

SPEAKER_02 27:38

I love it. I remember I remember I stayed in our guest room and showered in our guest shower. This is like going back maybe 90 years old.

SPEAKER_00 27:45

This shower is terrible. I'm like, this is awful. What an awful experience.

SPEAKER_02 27:49

And but once you actually experience it, because guess what? None of those people who work at that hospital are sitting in that emergency room. They're calling ahead if they have an emergency, they're getting right to the back, they're getting the best doctors and the best treatment and the best care and the best everything. They couldn't possibly see it. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 28:04

And so especially because they're of what they're juggling.

SPEAKER_02 28:08

Yeah, of course, they can't. And I I always think about that. I'm a fan first. I I love sports, I love shows, I love entertainment, you name it, I I love it. I love going to shows where nobody knows I'm coming, where no one knows my name. I'll buy a ticket, I'll walk in with everybody else. Like those are I'm such a critic, so I I get to pick things apart in the best possible way for experience, and and that's what I go and do. And it's it's amazing and productive and helpful. And you can really, really make change when you can see through the eyes of your customers everywhere.

SPEAKER_03 28:35

So when you do that, Matt, when you go somewhere and you're just doing that observation, have you ever had an experience like that where you just had a really big light bulb moment, like you were somewhere and you saw something done a certain kind of way, or maybe you saw something done poorly where you were just like, I'm taking that immediately?

SPEAKER_02 28:53

Yeah. So this goes back to my consulting days, and I won't I won't pick it on any of our current partners because we all deliver amazing experiences all the time. But when I was consulting, I was consulting for a team, and um I was in one space walking around outside the building before a game, and there were three sets of competing audio um at the same time from different sets of speakers. And the net result was they could turn off one, uh they couldn't find the source for the second one ever. My my entire time, I think I had a uh nine-month engagement, they could not find the source and never turned it off. There are certain things that bother me more than most. Um competing audio is certainly one of them. But there are but there are so many amazing things that that teams are doing. You you can take inspiration from everyone. There's a great, uh very little book called Steal Like an Artist, which is about taking the best artists in the world, always have gotten inspiration from from other people. And so I always take pride in in taking ideas and and looking at things that are done well and done amazing and taking them and importing them into into other places that have slightly or sometimes majorly different forms, but certainly inspired by people who do that amazing first set of work.

SPEAKER_03 30:06

Yeah, I I love you know the way we call it being customer-centric, right? But you know, if you are selling a product that is at retail, walk the aisles, you know, if you're selling it can be very hard for certain organizations to get close to their customer, but I think your example is such a good one because you're not you're not in a position for an experience you're setting up to be able to walk around like you're like you're a fan, right? Because you you got things going on. But you can go to other ones, right? And it's such a smart proxy. And I think it's just another way to think about okay, if you can't get close directly to your customer, how might you get close to a proxy? Um, I'll tell you a quick story because it's just incredible that he did this. But um, I have a client who was very senior in a healthcare system. So, healthcare system, you've got hospitals. We we do a lot of work beyond healthcare, but for some reason I'm just in the healthcare thing with you today. Anyway, he wanted to get close to understanding what kind of patient experience he got himself completely disguised as an older woman, had like a roll-ator walker. Um, and and I mean, you couldn't get away with this today, I don't think, because of all the security. So this is some years ago. But he spent the day going around to the different hospital locations and he would act lost or he would act slightly injured or confused or whatever to see how he would get experience. Now, he's a very kind and thoughtful person. And so he didn't use it. There were definitely some things that went well and some things that didn't go well, but he didn't use it to be punitive with people, but he did use it toward making some changes around how they were operating. I was like, that is so cool.

SPEAKER_02 31:58

Spectacular. Spectacular. I even for some of the situations that didn't go well, I'm sure there's some of them are excusable. Like someone's super busy, they're rushing somewhere else, they're rushing to home to get somebody that's in trouble.

SPEAKER_03 32:10

And there were some spectacular moments that he had as well. So and just because it's funny, he revealed it and people didn't believe him because he had a friend who did beard or costuming and real work.

SPEAKER_04 32:25

Right.

SPEAKER_03 32:25

I want to talk to you a little bit about your team. One of the questions I have in this realm is what are you coaching your team on these days? What's what's really important right now that you're trying to get them either to focus on more or go deeper in?

SPEAKER_02 32:38

Sure. I we do so many different things at at Legends Global that it's hard for me to focus on any one particular thing. I say I'll give you this in two directions. The one is a lot of people talk about servant leadership, right? Helping, doing whatever you can to serve your people. I I take a little bit of a different slant to that and talk about kind of inspirational leadership, which has some of the same properties and principles, but I I need my people and really want them to want to do these things that are that are hard sometimes and uh but but needed. We ask a lot of of every person, right? We know we're in the agency business, we know how that works. But I want to inspire them to do their best work. I'm a I'm a believer in in work, happy work equals happy life. I mean, a lot of people, men will say happy, happy wife equal equals happy life. That too.

SPEAKER_03 33:27

But you do you spend um you spend so much time at work and and with the people you work with.

SPEAKER_02 33:33

That's it, right? So think about all the time we're thinking about work and get to an executive level position. You're thinking about work a lot, and certainly more than half our waking hours. So if you think about it like that, how do we get people to do their absolute best work? Period. And if we do that, better for the person, better for their world and their families and everybody, better for the group and department, and better for the company, right? And so you think about all those positives. And so I I I try to think about ways to inspire the team first. That's how I think about it. And then secondly, overall, we have a new CEO, maybe he's a couple years old now. Um, but he thinks about centralization. We were built very decentralized, and so a GM of a building would make all their own decisions and and be kind of the kings of their castle or his or her castle. And some of that is changing. I wouldn't say all of it, but some of that is starting to change. As opposed to having 40 email systems out there in the world, you should have one. And we should do this in a better way where everyone can learn and get better and grow. And so there is a centralized approach and thoughts around how can we do this in the right way that's gonna move the business forward and be be better for everybody. And so that's one of the things we're we're we're knocking on the door on in a bunch of different directions.

SPEAKER_03 34:40

Got it. Great. And you said earlier, and I want to circle back to this, that you love marketing. And I could read into that a million different ways, and I don't want to, I don't want to put words in your mouth. Tell me why. Tell me your foundational why. Marketing is tricky. Um, it's tricky in so many ways, particularly when it comes to measurability, particularly to the accessibility that other functions think that they have to knowing what great marketing looks like. So there's so many parts of it that can make it really challenging. What do you love?

SPEAKER_02 35:13

The storytelling aspect is something that's I don't think you really get that in any other field that I've seen. And that to me is my favorite. I had an eight-year career in screenwriting, ultimately it went up in flames in a terrible way. Uh, but in the in the crux of it, I learned how to tell stories. And if I take one more incredibly positive thing from that, is how to put words together and scenes together and move people emotionally and and get them to want to do the things that you need them to do. That's a big great art game to me. The storytelling aspect is amazing. And when you have amazing brands to represent, you get to tell all these amazing stories, and that's that's awesome. You get to do it over and over and over again. And and uh in the ultimate, go back to Harvey Lister, but you put the goosebumps on on somebody in the best possible way, and man, is that is that rewarding and feel feels incredible.

SPEAKER_03 36:01

Yeah, and and is there any anecdotal story that you can share around a time when you were able to inspire somebody in your team? No, because I do imagine your folks are really probably flat out most of the time, you know, with the kind of the nature of the beast. And I think marketers in general are, but I think a lot of marketers these days are flat out and and a lot of them are a bit beleaguered, if I'm honest. In a lot of the conversations I'm having in the market right now, it's just it's just a tough market for a lot of reasons. I'm just curious if there's like, you know, big or small in that sense.

SPEAKER_02 36:33

Yeah, no, I'll I'll give you one. I got to the got to the Dallas Cowboys um and they'd never had a real marketing department before I got there. And they when I got there, they put a bunch of groups underneath me that had been operating, and we started to build a a marketing team out because they never had anyone thinking about marketing. Sherry Jones is this incredible larger than life figure who can say something in the media and move and shake trees. And they used that, which was incredible, and they had this incredible experience at a cowboy stadium, and then um before that, uh uh other stadium. So they had a lot of brand moments that were great, but they never had a marketer in there to do this. And so when I got there, um they they needed they needed help in in the areas that a marketer would give help, right? And so we had people doing video. There were a couple what what Steven Jones called the sacred cows, people you could not could not fire.

SPEAKER_03 37:22

And I had to say Matt mess it up over there, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:26

Not this person, so but the work was substandard, and so I had to spend a good amount of time kind of inspiring through this, I was called the standard of excellence, and um I I I established this like open feedback model, which I appreciated. And and in the first meeting, I always tell the story. I was gonna put up a bunch of their work. I was there for about a month. I was getting the whole team together for the first time. I was gonna put up their work and just criticize it in front of them as like a lesson in how we're gonna do open feedback. And I called my one of my bosses, he's like, I don't think that's your best opening. But I opened that meeting and I put up my own work, stuff that we had just like won awards for and done a meeting, like some of our best stuff. And I opened it up and I said, Hey, I'm gonna show you this, and I want you to guys to tell me, give me a reason why you hate this. And of course, no one spoke. I'm the new boss, they're not gonna say anything. And I just started criticizing it. I've seen this stuff a thousand times. I had so many criticisms of it, it was crazy, but it was award-winning, it was great, it wasn't not great. And then by the end of that meeting, everyone was criticizing it and getting to a point of we're gonna give feedback to everyone model. It took a little time getting there. I will say that I was a little clunky getting there. I didn't earn a lot of friends fast in the in that place. But by the time my four years was up, all of our video editors were winning sports Emmys, right? Even the sacred cows that you couldn't get, they got so much better at their work by uh again showing them great work, constantly inspiring them to be better, pushing them, showing them inspirational stuff. It was amazing to see. It was one of the more proud things in my career. And I watched them go on and and they still do amazing work. They win trunkloads of of sports emeries every year now, and it's awesome, and it feels great. I'm sure it feels great to them, and I and I and I know it does. When I see them, they they always tell me. And so it's an it's an amazing, uh, amazing.

SPEAKER_03 39:06

Yeah, it's a really interesting combination of what you did there because I mean, on the one hand, real leading from the front, you modeled it, right? You put yourself in the hot seat, you made yourself vulnerable, you criticized yourself first, which then invited others. But then also you balance that with showing them what great look like and continuing to show them what great look like. It is it's really hard for people to be um really honest in inside companies, particularly inside hierarchies. When oftentimes people say, Well, you know, I really want to know what you think. And it's like, but do you?

SPEAKER_04 39:40

Is it actually do you?

SPEAKER_03 39:42

So you really have to you have to work really hard to get people to know that you mean it, you know, and it's in the big things and the little things. I I really appreciate that. And and and the fact that what it led to in the long run is they're doing great work and they continue to do great work. You you help them see where to set the bar, but you did it in a way of like setting it on yourself first.

SPEAKER_02 40:04

I totally and think about how good they feel. Think about their worlds, think about the worlds around them when they win that award. It's different, but even knowing you did that great work and feeling that pride, uh that that those kind of things are what's when that's when you're you know that the person has learned to fish, right?

SPEAKER_03 40:21

When they can feel the pride for themselves, right? Whether like somebody's looking or not, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do this really, really well.

SPEAKER_04 40:29

Exactly right.

SPEAKER_03 40:30

Um so the time has flown. I am at our last question because we're almost out of time. But we always like to end by talking about um like a shedding of a belief. So, you know, the metamorphosis moment is about continuing to grow and how are you growing as a leader and how are you pushing to growth and marketing? So I do want to end with asking you, is there some kind of a belief you had that you felt like, you know, that just doesn't serve me anymore, or it's limiting me in some way that you set aside that you feel has made you a stronger leader?

SPEAKER_02 41:02

I think the the biggest switch for me was making that jump from doing the work to managing the work and the fundamental shift of your success being based upon you controlling everything versus you building people and supporting people and inspiring people to do this amazing work that is now representative of you. And so that to me was a was a light switch flip. Going from the New York Red Bulls to the Dallas Cowboys, where um I had to manage now people who had no idea how to do their jobs and couldn't do their jobs, was was kind of the the moment that that actually changed.

SPEAKER_03 41:35

Yeah. And it's hard, right? I was just delving on this topic earlier today because I have a client who has somebody in their organization who they've scaled a lot, who's swooping a lot. So something happens and then they're coming in and doing it themselves, kind of a thing. So when you had to make that switch, what mental track did you have to get over? You know what I mean? Because it's oftentimes if you're the doer, it's like I can do it better myself, or I can do it faster myself, or just a general worry about how it might come out if I'm not involved.

SPEAKER_02 42:08

Of course, all of it. I would say all the above. And maybe it's just simply kind of this lack of control in what the output is. Yeah. And sometimes you think, you know, I I I'm do you could you could justify it in your own head, like, hey, I'm just doing it to help them and their work's gonna be better. When in reality, you oftentimes failure can help people get better over time. And so letting people actually sink or swim and then watching them do that essentially on their own with your support as opposed to you doing it. The value in that is amazing. Anyone who's a parent knows, like if you tie your kids sneakers every day until they're 14, they'll never learn how to tie their sneakers, right? It's just it's simple, right? And so it's a similar principle.

SPEAKER_03 42:44

At that first time where you let go of the back of the bike.

SPEAKER_02 42:50

It's crazy. Yeah, you they'll fall and you'll get blamed. That's how that usually works. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:54

Yeah. One of the things in that realm, like to the extent that we have listeners who are like, oh my gosh, yeah, I need to do that, right? I need to let go more because a lot of people are aspiring through the ranks and marketing people who listen. One of the other things that I tell myself at times, because this has happened many times for me, is sometimes somebody will do the thing and then I see what they've done and I pause and I'm and I'm have an honest moment with myself. I wouldn't have thought about it like that. I wouldn't have brought that idea to it. I wouldn't have done that as well, or or I would have done it differently. And it and it helps me um it helps me be brave to do it again the next time because I love control.

SPEAKER_00 43:33

Right. We love control, but we need other perspectives to actually get the business. Right. It's big, right?

SPEAKER_03 43:38

Um, we're so limited in that there's only one of us, you know, and there's only 24 hours in a day, and there's so much that has to get done. So I just really like to like revel in it when I see something, but I do something in a way that I wouldn't have thought of, you know, and I'm like, that's really good. No, there are times too, you know, where you see something and you're like, I I didn't give you enough of a brief. I can often be a problem. Like, I wasn't clear.

SPEAKER_02 44:04

By the way, sometimes the person doesn't deliver. Like there's just there's all kinds of scenarios. It happens. That's it.

SPEAKER_03 44:10

Absolutely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:11

Well, Matt, I know that your schedule is bonkers. So I so appreciate you taking the time. I really think our listeners, whatever they're navigating right now, are just gonna get so much from this. So thank you very much for taking the time.

SPEAKER_02 44:25

Seriously, my pleasure. I hope we get to do this again sometime. This was so fun. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_03 44:29

Yeah, maybe we'll bring you back for a part two at some point. I think that would be fantastic. And I will say to our listeners, you know, if you're navigating any kind of a brand moment right now, you know, a repositioning, a reset on your growth, you have a disorganized portfolio, like whatever you have going on, would love to have a conversation with you. These are the kinds of messy problems that we work on on the Noetic team. And we really hope that you have enjoyed this time. And next time you're at a live event, think of Matt and his team because they're probably the engine behind it. Thanks, everybody. Thanks for listening to the Metamorphosis Moment, a podcast from Noetic Consultants. If this episode made you think about what's next for your team or about a challenge you're currently facing, we'd love to hear from you. We often help leaders think through complex issues to realize the change they seek. Until next time, trust the transformation and make it stick.