Outside the Line
You are more than a shield. Conversations about what keeps cops anchored to what really matters - life outside the thin blue line.
Outside the Line
Episode 14 - Checkpoints with Reuben Ramirez
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Welcome to Outside the Line - the podcast for cops learning to stay anchored to the real world.
This week I'm joined by Reuben Ramirez - retired Assistant Chief of Dallas PD and founder of the Checkpoints program.
Reuben talks about how his faith keeps him anchored to the real world and influences his approach to leadership, the lessons he learned by being vulnerable about his own struggles, and how he turned those lessons into a blueprint for police departments all around the country.
Connect with Reueben:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/reuben-g-ramirez-6378b184/
Learn about Checkpoints:
https://www.startcheckpoints.com/
https://www.startcheckpoints.com/book
Connect with Dina:
Welcome to Outside the Lines, a podcast with conversations about keeping cops and controls really matters, life outside the city's lines. I'm your host, Devi Campbell, an active duty NYPD detective on a mission to normalize conversations around resilience and mental health, and help cops develop self-awareness and an identity outside their career so they can enjoy life and thrive in the real world, not outside the line. Welcome back to Outside the Line, the podcast for cops who are learning how to stay anchored to the real world. Today I'm joined by a special guest. He's a retired 30-year veteran. He's an assistant, former assistant chief of Dallas PD, and the founder of the Checkpoints program. Please welcome Ruben Ramirez. Ruben, thank you so much for being here. I'm so glad that you made the time. Like I'm really honored to have you. So thank you.
SPEAKER_02It's my pleasure, man. Glad to be here.
SPEAKER_03If you wouldn't mind just walking us through your career and how you got started in law enforcement.
SPEAKER_01Oh, let's see. We'd have to go back. Um to uh I started my career in 1995. I was 22 years old. Uh I was uh I grew up in a small town in South Texas. My parents were farmers, so I I was uh the son of a farmer. I was a farmer, I guess. And uh just you know, one day I was I was in college and I just saw a job fair that Dallas PD was was hosting and decided to inquire with a few of my friends and and uh wasn't really anything that we had thought of before. It certainly wasn't anything that I I wanted to do before, but it but it sounded interesting. And and in Texas, Dallas is is kind of a big deal. So um, you know, we all decided to to apply and and started that process. And I think um within a within a couple months, we had we had little by little, all of my friend group had weeded out of the process. And I was uh I was the only one who was offered a job and or at least a contingent role in the police academy. And and so at 22 years old, I started my career with with the Dallas PD. You know, I I think upon graduation, I still was, I was really the jury was still out on whether I this was a role that I was gonna want to do. But um my career really started off uh you know really on a on a really good track. I was I was assigned to a real busy division of of Dallas, uh, made some good friends, and eventually got put on uh what we were calling different violent crime task force back then. We were still on the back end of maybe the the the war on drugs. So there's a lot of drug chasing and uh just had a lot of really good assignments and over the years promoted, took a few promotion exams and and found myself in specialized investigations, mostly a lot of undercover, undercover narcs, uh narcotics for a while, um, some intelligence type roles, major crimes, and just kind of, you know, a really good career. Eventually um made it to lieutenant and uh was one day uh the chief of police told me they were one of his commanders told me they were going to promote me into the command staff ranks. And and then throughout the years, uh, you know, I always one of the things I pride myself on is that I was promoted in the command staff by three different police chiefs uh into higher levels. So, you know, there's some there's some police officers or some commanders that have, you know, a good chief comes in and he really favors them, and next thing you know, they skyrocket to the top. And that wasn't really my career. It was um, it was just kind of gradual with different administrations and eventually made it to assistant chief. And I was the uh bureau chief over all patrol operations for the city of Dallas when I eventually retired about a year and a half ago.
SPEAKER_03Nice. And what so what made you initially want to become a supervisor after after having been a cop?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's a that's a good question. I I think um there were probably subtle things like, you know, when I was a detective, uh, you know, we complain a lot about the decisions that supervisors make. And and um, you know, that that you there's always people near you that you can you can find a pretty good listening group to to complain about supervisors. Uh, but that idea that, you know, maybe if we really want to change it, we need to become a supervisor. Uh, you know, that always kind of I always felt that that kind of knocking. And um I wound up taking the the exam to be a sergeant and and um, you know, that was I'm eventually promoted. And and when I did, uh, yeah, I I think I really liked it. I like the sergeant rank a lot because uh that that's kind of the rubber meets the road type of role. And and you still get an opportunity to to be a troop to a degree, and and you still get the camaraderie, and people, the troops still kind of like you at that rank. Um but I learned really quickly that I was I was a better supervisor when I was was not really just a friend with my troops. I really needed to try to keep them out of trouble. Uh I really needed to to kind of be a leader for them or an example for them uh in order to kind of keep them out of you know, just some of the tedious stuff, the the little complaints and and certainly internal affairs and those kinds of things. And um, and so I just I did that that role for about five years. And after about five years as a as a sergeant, uh I decided to to try it again and and then just kind of kept promoting. Uh, I just uh I wound up eventually getting to a point where I realized I mean I'm I am in position to, if I continue to promote, you know, I may be able to make change, I may be able to influence change. And and so I think that kind of continued to draw me.
SPEAKER_03That's a great answer. How do you think that you navigate it? And that's a good point, what you said, because a lot of times, especially the first line supervisors, because they work so closely with the cops, they they kind of become friends. And maybe, you know, outside off duty, they all go and hang out after work. Um, but like you said, when you're wearing the uniform and now you're in rank, you do have to maintain that sort of boundary. So, how do you think you walked that line?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think one of the things I realized is that, you know, cops, you know, we we do have a lot of friends, you know, we have a lot of a lot of each other in the ranks. Uh, what we don't have is a lot of good bosses, or at least at the troop level, we don't realize that we we don't see it. We we we see the the supervisors or the bosses when they're doing something we don't like. That's the kind of stuff that gets shared and circulated. And we all have our example of a boss that may not have really given us the probably the right type of guidance or a fair shake. And so I think that was it. I think I just realized that they didn't need another friend. Uh, cops didn't need another friend. What they needed was was was they needed an uh an advocate, they needed an ally, they needed somebody up there in the supervisory ranks. And and you know, I guess truth be told, you know, one of the things that I've, you know, when you get older, you really start to do a lot of introspective look on yourself and and really try to evaluate, you know, where you're at. Hopefully you do, and and try to evaluate where where you where you need to make some improvements or or what's working well. And and one of the things that I I realize uh pretty clearly now is that I've really always been a little bit of a uh, I guess like a contrarian, I guess you'd say, just somebody who's always kind of not, I've not really followed the pack always. I always kind of question, you know, why do we do it that way? Or, you know, um, what, you know, you know, just because this is the way the maybe the generation of cops did it before us, does it does it really mean that it's the right way? Like I really don't blindly follow. And so um I think while that may sound on the surface a little bit like, oh, this guy could be troubled, I think what it did in the in the age of policing that I was in, um, it was good to be a contrarian when some of the supervisors were really not all that good, maybe, or or maybe they were there were some you could, and and uh so I think that's what I think that's what what wound up happening was I I made it a pretty common thing to to not just go with the pack, to just question. And and uh, and but I wasn't really a jerk about it. And I never really I never never found any pleasure in making people look bad. I just questioned some of the stuff they did, and I and I tried to explore whether it was a better way to do it. And and uh inevitably, I think when your intention is right and you're really not just trying to bash people or not trying to make yourself look good, you find pathways and and routes to do things that that wind up benefiting everyone just a little bit more.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's a good point. When you approach something from a place of curiosity, if somebody else gets I I I hate to use the word triggered because it's it's such an overused word, but if that's if somebody else reacts to that, if they know you and they see that you're just genuinely trying to seek the truth and you're coming from a place of curiosity instead of judgment, from my experience, I don't want to speak for you, but people seem more willing to work with you and to be open about stuff. And backing up a little bit, you said you were 22 when you went into the academy, correct? How do you that's very young? Do you do you feel like you had a sense of identity outside of policing, like who you were as a person at that time? Or do you think you just kind of got enmeshed in the world of policing?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, uh, not at all. No, I think I should think I I got into policing um probably too young, uh just by general standards, too young, but even more, I was probably a lot more immature than than I even knew when I when I got in. So, you know, I I I think I think I was extremely fortunate that I had such a such a good group of of of friends in the PD that just happened to be really good cops. And and not just good cops, they they were actually just really good people. And had it not been for that type of pack that I that I ran with, uh I I don't think I don't think there's any chance that I eventually become uh assistant chief and and uh or even retire from PD. I think I think the opportunities for me to have tripped up and gone the wrong direction were so prevalent that um I just I really just consider myself incredibly lucky, uh blessed, and and and and ultimately just very grateful for for the people that I had around me.
SPEAKER_03And that really speaks to the culture of you know, the the brotherhood and like supporting each other and looking out for each other and the importance of having and maintaining those healthy relationships because you know, like like somebody that I know, you know, he always says, if you're in a room surrounded by four other idiots, you're the fifth idiot. But if you're in a room surrounded by like four other guys who are squared away and on point, you're more likely to in turn be squared away and on point. So, how was the transition for you? Oh, go ahead. Were you gonna say something?
SPEAKER_01No, just just to your point that you know, influence is a powerful thing. Like it is arguably the most powerful thing that exists in in in any, you know, in our nation, our societies, communities, what whatever, wherever you want to apply it, but especially in our police departments, like there is so much powerful influence there. And and yeah, the ability to to to absorb some of it, learn from it, grow from it, or or the alternative, go the bad route is so incredibly dynamic in in in in police uh departments. Influence is probably the one resource that we have infinite amounts of. That's we have no shortage of influence. And and and yeah, the whole you know, birds of a feather flock together. That's that's real. Uh it absolutely is.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, thank you for that. So, how did you find the transition from police officer to supervisor? And then as you went up the ranks, I know this is like a two-part question. Did it get how did leading change for you?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think one of the main things that stands out to me is is um yeah, while I enjoyed leading, I I enjoyed the the uh increased uh responsibility and and and really uh decision-making ability. Uh I I think that um I think one of the things that that I didn't like about it was that I found myself uh with fewer and fewer um really friends. You know, I think that's you know, when you're in narcotics, uh, you know, especially in narcs, because those guys are pretty tight, you know, and you're making you know, drug seizures or or or big busts, you know, advice, you know, kind of a high five and celebrating. And but when you get into the gold badges, you know, for us, you know, with this, I don't know if every agency is like that, but when you get into the higher ranks, the supervisor ranks, nobody remembers what you did uh back when you were detective. And in fact, um I don't think anybody cares. You know, I think once you get into the supervisory ranks, particularly into the executive ranks, uh, you know, you you're out of the fraternity. And and so, you know, I I joked a lot about how, man, when I was when I was a uh a patrol officer and a detective, man, I had people that always wanted to go to lunch with me. You know, people always ask me, hey, you want to go grab lunch? So you got became a supervisor, fewer and fewer. You get into the command staff ranks, nobody wants to go. You're like, you're trying to, I'm offering to buy people lunch just to go have somebody to go eat with, or you're or you're eating lunch in your office. And um, and and and and you know, but but that's probably one of the things that that uh that stood out is you do get fewer and fewer friends as you rise up into those higher, higher ranks, but um it's also very humbling. And and uh, but it it's it's exactly that humility that you really need um to be able to lead at those at those upper uh especially the executive uh level. The humility is is is uh is what keeps you really aiming the right direction. And I'll tell you that while, you know, you know, I know I kind of poke at fun at myself a little bit, but while I didn't have maybe a lot of people, friends around, you know, for for lunches or whatever, um those police officers uh that I led and that I supervised um reach out to me uh you know way more than I would have ever imagined either on social media or or just those that have my phone and just thank me for for the way that I treated them or the way that I led. And and I remind them sometimes, that's like, you know, it's interesting you get to the top of the higher levels and you think you don't have any friends, but but they may not hang out with you for a bunch. There may be a number of reasons why they don't. And it's really not usually uh about you as much as it is about them, and that's okay. Uh it's just kind of knowing that that place in leadership. And um anyway, so that that stands out, but it it worked out. I I I no regrets at all. I I really did uh enjoy the journey all the way to through every uh every promotion and and rank.
SPEAKER_03And we we're gonna get into in a minute how you were able to make a change because I think you did a fantastic job and you're still doing great work. But as an executive leader, who do you lean on when you need support?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's such a good question. Um, you know, one of the things that uh that I believe strongly is that uh I really never I don't know that I ever really had a a uh a mentor. Uh I just I I just didn't. And now I'll tell you in in context, I have a I'm a I'm I'm I'm very faith-led. And so, you know, I I've I found that um, you know, I would take a lot of my struggles, a lot of a lot of my difficulty was uh was always uh you know kind of brought to some of my my church and my faith group and uh those kinds of things. But but I don't know that I ever really had a chief that I I liked all of the the chiefs I worked for, most of them, some I like more than others, but um but I never really had that kind of relationship to lean on them. And um, you know, even my my colleagues in the executive ranks, I mean, they were each, they all brought something to the table. I thought they were all very uh very uh competent in in different areas, but but um you know just when it came to real important or personal things, I don't know that I really had anybody that I leaned on. I was just strictly in my my faith, those my guiding principles, and and they continue to be.
SPEAKER_03Thank you for I you know I'm a woman of faith also, so I appreciate when anybody comes on and shares about their faith and how important it is to them. Do you think your faith is one of the reasons why it was so important to you to remain humble as a leader the higher in the ranks you rose?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, that's uh, you know, I'm a I mean that's that's that's what we're called to do. Uh and and uh, you know, again, being grounded in in my you know, my my my faith is is is Christian and and Catholic is I'm a Catholic in the end. So uh, you know, being uh a practicing active Christian and Catholic, I I mean I've got to remain grounded in that. I I know that ego would just destroy me anyway. So it's like, you know, uh I've got you know, I I I just kept that constantly on the radar. Anything that I was able to accomplish, any successes I had were uh, you know, I I I strive with with a lot of intention to make sure that it that I didn't celebrate the uh anything that I had done because uh I I know where all of those um all of those abilities come from.
SPEAKER_03Now when did you did you get to a point at some point during your career where you noticed that work or the demands of work were spilling over into your personal life?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I did. Uh I think they, you know, they probably always had um, you know, I and um, you know, I was married. I I know you've read my book, so sorry the background on that. And uh but yeah, I think I think it's it's very difficult in this profession for it not to spill over. Uh, I think I was I was I was very aware that um I wasn't doing all of the things that I needed to do to to to maintain that work-life balance. Um and and I think that you know, I think if there was any time that I had, I tried to to make sure that I was available for my kids and and to be around for my kids. I think that was where I what was I was most cognizant of. And and while that, you know, I know to listeners that that sounds like a good strategy and a good idea, but eventually, um, you know, it then it causes the marriage to to to fracture and and uh for me ultimately sever. And when it did, you know, now you're you know, now you're hurting the kids uh probably on overdrive. And so yeah, it it's it's tough for it to not spill over. Uh, but it but and I and I and I I definitely didn't balance that well. And then, you know, I I ultimately I think I I kind of picked the price for that in my personal life as well.
SPEAKER_03Once you were aware of that, what were some steps that you started taking to kind of set those boundaries?
SPEAKER_01You know, I think when I really look back, I don't I don't know how much I did, you know. I was um I was um when I wasn't married, I was I was full throttled police. And then by the time I when I was married, I was already a sergeant. And so the you know, kind of that the responsibility started to you know stretch out beyond you know the things you were doing and the things you were responsible for. Now they involved the the squad and what the squad was responsible for. And so so I think really throughout my marriage, it was it was always uh kind of spilling over. And and I don't know that I ever really pulled those boundaries back. Um and then, you know, the the the I guess the double edge of it all is that once you, you know, at least for me, once your marriage falls apart and now you're trying to, you know, you're picking up those pieces, and that that's a whole nother subject we can talk about later if you want. But uh, but divorce is a difficult, I think I title it divorces a crisis, and I think it is, regardless of whether you're in the right relationship or not. Especially if you have kids, it's it's it's a crisis. But then the double edge is the way you try to triage that crisis is you wind up working more. And then so um, you know, I don't know that I ever really did did maintain good good bound good boundaries. Uh I and and the the hypocrisy and and and there are many uh in policing is that we constantly say, you know, take care of your family, you know, make sure you're there for the family, but then we constantly put additional responsibilities on our men and women. And so uh Yeah, I would love to see our profession really draw some better boundaries, and and I don't know that we will as a profession, but I do believe that um I'm encouraged by the next generation of policing. Unlike a lot of police officers, I because I know I hear a lot of criticism, but I will tell you that I think the next generation of policing is is has a chance to be our greatest generation because uh they do uh set boundaries and then they do prioritize some of the things that we didn't. And and so I'm I'm I'm encouraged because when they start to take over our police departments, uh they they're gonna have the opportunity to really institutionalize, hopefully, some of those boundaries and and maybe can help uh help our personal lives a little bit.
SPEAKER_03That's first of all, thank you for your honesty. Uh, I know sometimes people feel like they have to have this perfect answer where it's like, oh yeah, I saw this was going on, and then I set these boundaries, and then everything was fine, but that's not always the way life goes. Life isn't perfect. So thank you for being giving an honest answer and not just the answer that you think people want to hear. And also for being so hopeful about generations coming up and the way that they approach their mental health and they approach their work lives and their personal lives and they set those boundaries. So, how did you and it was about this time well before we change the subject, do you want to get into the divorce uh epidemic? You said you that was something you wanted to touch on.
SPEAKER_01Oh no, I think it was really just the how difficult it is, and and um I I I don't, I mean, I'll just say that that we we we are almost at epidemic levels in policing as it relates to the sustainability of our relationships. And uh we've gotta, we meaning departments, gotta recognize how impactful and detrimental a severed relationship is to our ability to to first of all to even be able to work um in the the with the challenges that our profession brings, but how it really magnifies the and the emotional health and mental and potentially mental health issues within our profession and and the substance abuse, and meaning that if we don't start taking better care of our relationships, and and that means providing resources and support free of charge for our men and women, including, you know, even things as as as far out there as marriage retreats and free marriage counseling and and and couples uh therapy, so that our men and women can uh have the tools to help them navigate their relationships amidst this this you know, the the the environment that we put them in in policing. Um we are going to continue to see our men and women struggle. It's the the marriage is too important. Our relationships, our love life. I was on a podcast recently where they were talking about, they asked me about questions about love, and it was really odd and it was awkward because I don't know that I'm the best person to talk about love or relationships. But but but I will I will tell you that um we've got to do more to protect our relationships. We it I would love to see us be a profession that had about a you know 20% divorce rate or had the best divorce rate because that's how important love is to the servant-hearted professional. Like it's like it's so it's so simple. The fact that we miss this stuff drives me nuts. A servant-hearted man or woman is a is a compassionate, passionate man or woman. You don't go into a profession, especially today, in today's world of policing, you don't go into this kind of servant-hearted profession if you don't have a great big old heart or or or care immensely about things. So, what that should have translated to to all of us is that when we do find a relationship or someone that loves us or that we love and we decide to to to to you know unified and that that relationship in marriage, that's gonna have a lot of strong emotions and love and passion tied to it. And if it falls apart, it is gonna unravel us in places that we didn't even know we were stitched together. And so we've just got to take better care of our families, better care of our relationships. And let's not make it all about the individual police officer. You know, I use this parallel um, you know, sometimes about there's there's shared responsibility here in into why our men and women um have the divorce rate that we have, but there's shared responsibility into why our men and women have some of the substance abuse problems that we have. And there's shared responsibility into why we have some of the difficulties that we have, including some of the policy violations that we have. I'm not going to dismiss the actions of police officers. I don't want everybody blowing crashing my website saying I'm trying to make excuses. But there is shared responsibility into why we have done some of the things that we do. And it's time we recognize it. It's time that people are held accountable, not just the individual police officer, and let's just support them better. Let's just support them, but then let's not leave it at support because support is very ambiguous. And that's probably one of our biggest problems in policing. We say things like wellness and we never define it. We say things like support and we never define it. We need to quit being lateral and let's drill down deep and figure out exactly what support looks like to the individual officer, and let's meet them right there and support them that way, build them, build off of that, and then we can hold them responsible once we've done everything in a way to support them. And they have, and if they haven't taken it, well, then we can hold them accountable. But my gosh, you know, we own, we have to own some of this ourselves. And I don't think we've done a good job of that accountability in this country.
SPEAKER_03You said so many great things in that answer. And I'm so glad that you dove deeper into that subject because you're right. There there is a share of responsibility, and it's not just about, well, this is how we're supporting you, and you could take it or leave it. It's how does the individual, it is so individualized, how does this person need support and how can we meet them there?
SPEAKER_01Exactly. Exactly. And then, you know, just to take that a step further, like recognize the culture. I mean, I I personally, you know, I'm I'm and I, you know, I I follow you on social media too. So I I know that, you know, I know the the messages are all good. And and yes, you know, if we need help, say something, it's okay to not be okay, and and and all of those things, yes, but it doesn't stop there. Our culture is so thick, there are many of our men and women that are not going to come forward. They do not believe it's okay to not be okay. They are not gonna come forward and say they need help. Uh they are influenced by their peers and and and and and maybe their childhood and their upbringing, and maybe they do believe there's some kind of weakness in there. That doesn't mean we don't help them anyway. What it means is that an equal or greater amount of our services we bring to them and we check on them and we and we get right there at eye to eye or knee-to-nee level, wherever they're at at the time, and bring them those those resources. And then again, recognizing the power of influence. And let's bring people who have influence, people who they do look up to. Let's get them involved in this. They'll take on this call. I know they will. I know, you know, people say all the time that, well, you know, peer support's not for everyone. Well, it's not. And then I'm not, I wouldn't, there's there are many of the people that that uh that I'm you know great friends with in in PDs, not just Dallas, but around the country, they would never be peer supporters, but they will absolutely reach out and check on somebody. And so let's not limit this to a to a one-dimensional strategy. Let's let's reach out and check on them. If they won't come forward, then we'll go to them. They're that important to us. And until we adopt that mindset um and a multifaceted strategy, again, we're gonna continue to struggle. And I just don't think, I just don't think we can, I just don't think we can let our men and women struggle anymore. It's uh it's uh it is an incredibly um tragic thing when uh you know a man or woman comes to this profession, again, servant-hearted, willing to lay down their life for someone they don't even know. And then then all of a sudden, you know, a few years into their career, they're struggling with alcohol, they're struggling with in their relationships, not because they wanted to be an alcoholic or didn't know the consequences of drinking, not because they wanted to be in a dysfunctional relationship. What else is left? Oh, they're answering calls every single day. They're they're in proximity to other people's grief, other people's tragedy, other people's sadness, some horrific events. And just like your friend said earlier, you know, you hang out with uh, you know, four idiots, uh, there'll be a fifth. Well, what if you hang out with despair? What if you hang out with tragedy? What if you hang out with sadness? What might that do to our noble servant-hearted men and women? For us to act like that's not part of the equation is uh, you know, shame on us. This is the piece that we can't just sit back anymore. This is a, you know, I know earlier before we started the podcast, you and I were talking about, I don't know how I got here. And I know you're, you know, these things just start calling you, they start knocking on your your part. It just starts pulling on you. I was I had a I had a roadmap to retire uh from Dallas PD. I was gonna go be a director of security for somebody and make a bunch of money and and uh you know that and all of a sudden here I am just banging the drum on this, on this this emotional health thing. But I I can't help it. It's just it just calls you, and I just I don't want to see another of our people struggle. I I know that I just got a report today of a uh 35-year-old captain in New Orleans committed suicide. Uh and I think this was today, so I don't know that your listeners know this yet, but but come on, 35 years old, first of all, already at the rank of captain. I mean, that's a lot of success within your police career uh in a short amount of time, but but um just again, we gotta we gotta do more.
SPEAKER_03And that's actually the perfect segue into what I wanted to talk about next was how you got involved in your department's wellness unit and how checkpoints came about. Because it doesn't have to be side note before you start talking about that. It doesn't have to be peer support or checkpoints or any other. It can be all of the above. It doesn't have to just be isolated to this is the only strategy we're gonna use to support somebody.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you're exactly right. Um, and as far as how I got involved in it, uh I was the I was the bureau chief over tactical and special ops. That was actually my dream job. Um and uh, you know, I had all of the the assignment, you know, I really had the the assignment I again I'd always wanted. I was over uh all of our SWAT teams, all of our all of our narcotics, our air units, gangs, canine, everything. Bomb squad had all the good stuff. And one day uh during a bureau hearing, uh it was a termination hearing. One of our officers had been arrested for DWI. And we we had had nine, we had nine officers arrested uh by the middle part of the year. I think we were in June. So we're in the the uh sixth month of the year. We had nine police officers arrested for uh alcohol-related incidents. And so the chief looked over at me at the after the hearing after he after he issued termination for that officer and asked me to do an assessment. He just wanted to know what resources were available and if they were being utilized, why or why not? And and he wanted it back to him. I guess he gave me like a month suspense date. And so, you know, naturally I was just like, wow, this didn't make any you know sense. This is really my my uh my wheelhouse, but I started talking to some of my SWOT operators and some of my investigators about it, and just kind of trying to get a feel for what the answer to those questions are, you know, why aren't we using these resources? Or you know, what resources are are available, would you use them? And um it really just kind of happened in a in a uh you know, in in one of my conversations, uh, you know, it was with this this group was with patrol officers actually, and and um it got a little heated. The officers obviously don't like to talk to a chief about mental health, and and uh one officer um who I would later learn had had just responded to a homicide, and it was something there was a 13-year-old, and uh the mother had, I guess at the scene, the mother had had run after the medical examiner van that drove off with with her her 13-year-old. And and so the officer was probably not in a real good place. And and anyway, he um it kind of kind of heated with him and I and he he wanted to know, and he basically just asked me straight out, he goes, Chief, why do you care? Why do you care about our mental health? And he said something like, You've been on this command staff or you've been on this police department for a long time, you've been on the command staff, and he said, What have you ever done for our mental health before? And it was kind of a it was kind of a a pretty shocking little uh you know, exchange, you know, just it caught me off guard. And and um, but I thought about his question and it was a valid question. You know, I had been on the police department a long time, never talked about mental health. Um, and the reality was that at the time I I was going through that divorce and I probably wasn't doing all that great myself. And so anyway, I wound up just kind of, you know, telling him that I didn't know. I don't, you know, I don't know why I haven't done anything. I don't know what to do about it. And I said, but I know things aren't good. And and so I shared a quick little story about my son. So I said, you know, I said, but to your question about why why I care, I said, I don't know. I said, maybe, maybe it's because I got two boys. And one of the things that scares me is is that one day my two boys, they were 17 and 13 at the time. And and I said, uh, one of the things that scares me is that one of my boys, if not both of them, are gonna one day tell me that they want to be police officers. And I said, and that, and that scares me. And and you know, and uh, and I, if anything, I want things to be better for them. And and when I said that, uh, this officer just kind of sat up in his chair and and just unloaded a bunch of bunch of stuff I'd never considered before. He talked about how hard the job was, and he talked about, you know, that that incident, and then he talked about screaming mothers at homicide scenes, and and then other officers talked about going to fatal car crashes and and the the contorted bodies. And and then uh anyway, the long story short is that as I continued this this focus group or this this assignment that I was given, I I heard things like homicide detectives said that that um giving, you know, making death notifications was the hardest part of their job. My SWAT operators talked about losing a hostage, and that that was the hardest part of their job. And so when I collected everything that I learned, every single thing that was cited when when asked what the most difficult part of their job was, everything that they cited was emotional. Everything was screaming mothers, contorted bodies, awkward space at suicide. It was seeing these people and these families in despair and in difficulty. And I thought about our current model of support and how almost everything was geared towards a critical incident or towards the crisis. Almost everything was geared towards our lives unraveling, but nothing was being done to support our men and women when they went to those loss of life calls, those violent homicides or those fatality car crashes or uh or or suicides or overdoses. We just kind of let them be on their own. We just kind of let them fend for themselves. And I thought that's the missing piece. We can figure out a mechanism to just check on them when they go to those calls. It doesn't have to be uh a big, we don't even have to ask how you're doing. It's not therapy. We're just checking in. We're just saying, hey, don't let those calls stack up on you. You know, hey, Dina Shrubin, I know you went to that that crash the other day. Um, you know, if you or any other officers at the precinct meeting thing, let me know. I'm working with peer team. Just that motion, it took about 10 to 15 seconds, but repeating that motion and using the right people to do that check-in made all the difference in the world. I could change the culture of our organization. And Dallas PD, you know, it's not a, you know, it's not very uh, yep, it's not the friendliest culture, uh, you know, in in in police departments. There's some there's some rough-mindedness, there's tough mindsets. And for it to change there, I I knew that we had something. And so that's how I started the um the the the checkpoint strategy or what we call start checkpoints. And um and and we know this thing we've piloted now in small agencies, large agencies, and and we know this thing works, we know we're on to something, and and so now it's just uh you know, spreading that message.
SPEAKER_03And that's I really love that people were so willing to be so honest with you, especially given the fact that they are police officers and detectives, and here now they are sitting with a chief. And I appreciate your humility allowing you to not get defensive and not take that as an attack on your ego. And instead, you really took what that officer said to you to heart, and you were like, Well, why do I care? Like, what am I doing? And now you've created this whole movement, which I want to talk about. And I really want everybody to go and and find Ruben's book. I got the Kindle version on Amazon, it's a great read, and it's it's a little bit of an autobiography, like you being vulnerable and talking about how you got to this point, and it's also a blueprint in a way for how you how checkpoints works. And I don't want to say too much because I really want to direct people to the book and to contact you personally. Um, but how do checkpoints fill in the gaps with currently existing wellness programs?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think um I think while we've done a a a pretty good job here lately of trying to acquire resources and even improve resources for our men and women, I think there there's a I like to say that there's a there's a sequence to support, right? Like there's there's something that has to happen first before we get to the support. And and and in our culture, it's there's a there's a resistance to peer support. There's a resistance to counseling and therapy. And so what we did with checkpoints is we went way upstream. This was like we were going to get in the granular. Rather than then try to support our men and women, we were going to work to create a receptiveness to the support that's available to our men and women. And so you we don't replace anything that any agency is currently doing, psychiatrists, peer support, counseling therapy, uh, apps, technology, you know, quiet rooms, whatever you have, massage chairs. This is before all that. This is checking on our men and women in a space where they hadn't been checked on before. And so, when that's you know, it's when they go to Lost of Life calls. So, so that was usually routine, and that was usually just kind of quote, part of the job. Uh to us, it's not. To us, when they go to those calls, we check on them. And it's just uh, you know, again, it's that simple check-in. But in that simple check-in, we do, I like to say we do four things that have never been done in American law enforcement. The first thing is we create an outward awareness to the cumulative effect of those, of those calls, the cumulative effect of dead body calls, the cumulative effect of fatality car crashes. So, so we check in and create an awareness to it. The second thing we do that has never been done in American law enforcement is we validate the feelings that we know our officers are gonna have. Any officer in the NYPD that goes to a loss of life call is gonna have some feeling. It may not be a uh a sad feeling, it may be a man, I can't, you know, what a what a waste of life. It may be an anger for the bad guy. There's a number of different emotions, but but some emotion is gonna happen. The emotion could be, you know, what I hate is this, the bad guys are gonna get away with this. Doesn't matter. There's an emotion that occurs when we go to these scenes and we've never validated it before. We're about to validate it. So that's the second thing. The third thing we're gonna do in that check in that's never been done in American law enforcement is we're about to vouch for peer support. We're about to vouch for our clinicians. We're about to vouch for the quiet room or the retreat or the psycho. Psychiatrist, because the reality is all of those resources we have, they're all good. Peer support is good. They're just in desperate need of somebody someone to vouch for them. And it can't be them. They can't vouch for themselves. That that looks like that's counterintuitive. So what we do is we vouch for them. We being whoever we identify, whoever becomes a checkpoint officer. And then the fourth thing we do through this check-in that has never been done in American law enforcement, unfortunately, is that we put this powerful brotherhood, this powerful network of support of men and women in blue that we actually do have, we put it on display every single day when we check on people. Well, now we're not. We're doing it every single day in these check-ins. And then the other thing is that we are creating new reference points. What I want to see in NYPD, and I know you know I want to bring this to NYPD. I feel like we get to NYPD, we're going to get to the rest of the country. And uh, but what I want to do is I want to create new reference points. I want, I want every police officer after going to one of these impactful calls, uh, one of these Lost of Life calls, I want them to expect that somebody's gonna call and check on them. Because at first, what I know that happens, at first, they say, Yeah, why are you calling me, Dina? You know, I'm okay. But after a while, they'll they soften up and like, yeah, Dina, I'm fine. They expect the call. You know what? I'm fine, Dina. I appreciate it though. Thank you. And your response is, well, listen, if anybody else, okay, I'll let you know if anybody else does. And then they start to appreciate. And what we've created now is new reference points, right? Like every time you go to a dead body call, there's somebody calling. That's a new reference point. Now it's something good tied to something bad. And we are a profession that is in desperate need of infusions of something good. That's what we're doing. And eventually, what those check-ins do is they not only create new reference points, but they create pivot points. And now we pivot towards the resources. Now we raise an eyebrow towards the resource because if the right person's checking on me, and that person is a person of influence, and if he vouches for it, then I might want to consider it. And so that was a long way of saying what we're doing is this is how we work with every other resource you have in NYPD or any, you know, Ponca, Oklahoma, doesn't any police department in the country. We get on upstream and we get on the front end. And as a result, what we see is more utilization of peer support, more utilization of our psychiatrists, more utilization of our apps, our technology, and even more in our trainings. We see more people signing up for training. So yeah, that's uh it's it's all uh it's in the granular. I always used to love the term, you know, if you take care of the nickels and and uh and dimes, the dollars will work themselves out. And that's what we're doing. We're taking care of the nickels and dimes.
SPEAKER_03I love that so much. And you know, I I am such a big advocate for checkpoints because I do believe that meeting you found a way to meet people where they're at and not be intrusive, not push them. You're just touching base with them on a human being-to-human being level. And like I said before, it doesn't have to be either or. You complement all of the other resources that agencies already have. So, how did you get to the point that you felt like you were ready to retire from the police department? Did you have any reservations about retiring? Did you have, I know I talked to a lot of people who they say that they had a lot of anxiety as it got closer, they had trouble sleeping. Did any of that apply for you?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um, you know, I don't know that I had the best transition. I I I was ready to retire and and I actually retired and went to be a strategy advisor for a technology company. So I actually had a job, but I think I I underestimated uh how much I would miss. Oh gosh, miss, I don't know if miss is the right word, but how much the separation from from policing, how much of an impact it would, it would have on me. And and uh as I talk now with other retirees, you know, we I find that we've all we all had very similar experiences. And and and and so I think there's a value in us really helping prepare our men and women for retirement um with the consideration that when you retire, um through no fault of your own, you you you will be looking for these greener pastures and these these relaxing days, right? Of of no longer being on the job and and all the things that comes with it. But one thing that happens that I didn't realize, and I had to learn this through uh through my my counselor, uh, who's a psychiatrist, that that your your lymphatic system, I guess, yeah, in your brain, your lymphatic system is really always on alert, like it's always ready for the next big job, a big stress, a big critical incident, or just you know, something frustrating or something difficult. And when you don't have something difficult or frustrating or chaotic or traumatic, um, after a while, it that that lymphatic system doesn't know how to self-regulate. And so what you could very easily find yourself doing is trying to manufacture stress, trying to create stress. And you can do it through drinking, you can do it through um, you know, driving fast or or everything in between. And it it it it it can be bad. And and so um when you're not giving it the stress that it needs, and it then it tries to manufacture it, then you know, obviously there's all the the byproducts of what that could create. But there's a lot of feeling of of of inadequacy, a lot of feeling of not feeling important anymore, not knowing where your value or self-worth is, and it can send you down a very difficult and unhealthy path. And I think that was one of the things that I hadn't anticipated. You know, again, I had a job, so I still had responsibility. It wasn't a whole lot, but it was, you know, comparatively speaking, but I still have a job. And and I still struggled. I started to to just you know second guess my decision. Should I have, should I have left? It started causing some problems in in my relationship. Um and and without you know, sparing you all the details, they're just it it's just something that needed to be on my radar. And and I think it needs to be on every one of our retirees radar. When you're when you when you retire, it's it's not as much a walk in the park, particularly that the first six months as you might think. And I think just like anything, as long as it's on your radar and you're recognizing it, you'll probably address it better than it than it blindsiding you.
SPEAKER_03Is there anything specific that you did that helped you navigate that, or was it just time?
SPEAKER_00Um you know, well, I guess uh yeah, I guess if we're on we're in the circle of truth here, um, so I I almost got left.
SPEAKER_01I was in a relationship. Uh my she was my girlfriend at the time. Um, she pretty much just uh just told me, hey, this is how you're acting. You're you're you know, you're going out drinking uh a lot, you're staying out late, you're not even doing that at home. But when you you know you're traveling for work and you're drinking and you're doing these other things, that's the life you want, fine, you're retired now, but it's not going to be with me. And so uh luckily she was uh she's a uh she was a she's a good enough woman to have and and strong enough in influence to really have caused me to to to pump the brakes and recognize that I needed to uh you know, if I wanted to be in this relationship with then I needed to, you know, I needed to make those adjustments. And and so uh I was able to make the adjustments because I I knew the alternative was I was gonna wind up, you know, uh losing the relationship.
SPEAKER_03Now, did you take checkpoints with you or is that something that stayed with Dallas PD and you kind of adapted your own version?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so um in Dallas PD, we we built a wellness unit and and we um uh which we didn't have previously, we didn't we didn't have a wellness unit. So we were able to put town put together a to move away from just a peer support, which is almost almost all voluntary, to a to full-time wellness unit. Um and and and we created the motion of of of checking on people, but but the uh the check-in system was not the wellness unit or peer support. It was really going out and finding those people of influence within the agency and and that would be willing to take this on as almost like a it was an additional role, but it was like an operational arm to the wellness unit. And so anyway, um once we built it, once we saw it work, uh, once we saw that it worked, I took that strategy, the model of of how we go out into an organization and and do the identifying of the checkpoint officers, including the leadership briefing and how we go to all the gatekeepers and brief them on the strategy, how it works, so that they're aware of what's going to be happening within their respective squads, units, divisions, bureaus, precincts, and give them a chance to vet the strategy and just really understand it and vet it. And what we found is that when you do that from the top of the organization to the bottom, you create the opportunity for culture change to happen. If you don't do that, it bottlenecks, it stops like you know, then you get some lieutenants or captains that say, Oh, we're not gonna do that, or that doesn't work, or I don't need, I don't want to hear. And so we want to make sure that doesn't happen. And so, so anyway, those those those those strategies and training, I guess, training strategies and the methodology behind it is all part of start checkpoints. I brought all that, I took all that with me.
SPEAKER_03And for anybody listening who's interested in bringing checkpoints to their agency or wants to know more, please reach out to Ruben. Uh, where can people find you?
SPEAKER_01The the website is startcheckpoints.com. Uh, there's a contact us on the website. You can also find us on most all social media. Uh, we're on Instagram, start checkpoints, or on LinkedIn. Um, but you can also find me on Ruben Ramirez. Uh that most of my I have double uh accounts on each of those social medias. You can find me on either of those. Those are probably the best two ways to reach out to us.
SPEAKER_03And I'll link all of that in the show notes so people can find you. What would you say now to that officer who asked you why you even cared? Would your answer change or is it still the same?
SPEAKER_01I think it's it's uh I think it's grown. I think I think at the time my kids were were the um were probably on the forefront of my concern. Uh, but I think now as I've am able to to travel and meet with police officers from different agencies, and I listen to them, or really they hear my presentation, because we we do a keynote presentation also, uh, that really kind of shares the the overview of the of the strategy and the need for it and what the consequences for not having it. And I'm approached by men and women and they share their stories of difficulty and their stories of struggle. And so now it it is my reason now is is really for them. It's and it's because what I know now is that every one of us out there who wear this uniform, who wear this badge, uh we are all carrying the same difficulty. We are all struggling and and we are all compartmentalizing and packing, and we are all coping. We all have a strategy to to be able to navigate these diff this difficult role. And and for a lot of us, uh, we've created a hardened shell uh around it. And for some of us, you know, we make it through, and um, you know, life looks different afterwards because you don't ever outrun the horrible things you've seen. They come with you in retirement and they come with you into your new relationships and they they they come with you wherever you go. And so uh what I want to do now is um because I know that we're all carrying the same things, I want to find those men and women and I that are carrying those difficult things and that are that have influence within our organization, and I want to rally them to be the checkpoint officers. I want them to do it because the power in this strategy is not just the the the four things that I that I told you that we're doing that have never been done in American law enforcement. It's not just the new reference points, it's not just the pivot points, it's not the trajectory and the and the change. The real beauty in what we're doing is that when you check on people, you you you get the medicine that all of us need to start to heal from our wounds. This thing is a is it is it's a cycle of good. Checking on the people is great, and and it's not just because they need it. We check on people through this strategy because we need it. And and when you start taking your hurts, when you start taking your difficulty and you share it with someone so that someone else doesn't struggle, first of all, that's biblical. And second of all, it's medicine, and it will heal you and it will give you the opportunity to be the husband and wife, the mother and father, brother, sister, police officer that you were always, that you all really that you set out to be and that you were always meant to be. And I want our men and women to heal. I want them to get into their their retirement year, they're really finish out their career and into their retirement years and not think that they can run away from this thing. This is our, this is our this is our medicine, this is our method to heal, uh, and I believe in it.
SPEAKER_03And I believe in it too. I really do. One last question because I always like to end on a high note. What is your favorite karaoke song?
SPEAKER_02Oh wow.
SPEAKER_01Um well the list is long, uh, but I guess if if I had to um wait a minute, let me ask you, is it my my karaoke song that I can just uh yeah, that I'd have to go up in front of okay, so yeah, that I'd go up in front of public and and sing, or just what was my favorite song? Let me make some clarification.
SPEAKER_03Either one. You can even say both if you have two different ones.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Um, so generally, uh yeah, I guess I like country songs. I'm a big George Strait fan, so I'd probably uh want to sing something from George Strait, like uh Amarillo by Morning or The Chair, I think. But if I were come in if you want. Yeah, but if we were all out, like if it was something where there was uh we needed to get the crowd going, I'd probably do something a little more out there, like um I'd probably karaoke to uh vanilla ice is ice ice baby.
SPEAKER_00I think that's uh I think that's one of the songs I know all the words to. And if um if the uh if the mood is right and the the venue's right, I can even try to imitate the dancing and and really give everybody something to laugh at.
SPEAKER_03Oh, that's amazing. So if you saw somebody in the background, sorry, my daughter just walked in. So if you were like, who was that?
SPEAKER_00No, no, I figured that. Yeah, it wasn't the promise. I saw a cat earlier too.
SPEAKER_03Oh yeah, I told her to come in to get the cat, but anyway. Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, she almost unlocked the door, by the way. She was she was up there.
SPEAKER_03We're still working on training her. Thank you so much for being here. And again, please, everybody listening, connect with Ruben, check out checkpoints, download and read the book or buy the book, whatever you do. It's there's so much good information there. So, again, thank you guys for being here again this week. And in case you haven't heard today, you are loved, you matter, and you are not alone. Thank you so much for stepping outside the line with me today. If you enjoyed this episode, consider sharing with a friend or to your social media network. And if you do please talk about it, if you've been opinions of this podcast, of course, not opinions now reflective of the host or departments.