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Outside the Line
You are more than a shield. Conversations about what keeps cops anchored to what really matters - life outside the thin blue line.
Outside the Line
Episode 15 - The Last Responders with Jackie MacIsaac
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Welcome to Outside the Line - the podcast for cops who are learning to stay anchored to the real world.
This week I'm joined by Jackie MacIsaac - a Senior Medical Examiner for a local jurisdiction.
Jackie talks about her first day as an autopsy assistant, how she stays anchored to the real world, and life as a wife, mother, and last responder.
Connect with Dina:
Welcome to Outside the Line, a podcast with conversations about keeping cops anchored to what really matters. Life outside the thin blue line. I'm your host, Dina Campbell, an active duty NYPD detective on a mission to normalize conversations around resilience and mental health and help cops develop self-awareness and an identity outside their career so they can enjoy life and thrive in the real world. Outside the line. Welcome back to Outside the Line, the podcast for cops who are learning how to stay anchored to the real world. Today I'm here with a special guest. She's a senior medical investigator for a local jurisdiction and also a friend, Jackie McIsaac. Thank you so much for being here. So happy to have you.
SPEAKER_01Thank you for having me. This is so awesome. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00I'm so glad you're here. So I heard you on the last on a previous podcast referred to medical examiners as last responders. Yes. I had never heard that before, and I thought that was so cool.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So how did you get into this line of work?
SPEAKER_01How did I get into it? Yes. Um, oh, it's kind of like embarrassing to be honest, because I wanted to do something along okay. So when I was in sixth grade, that's when like CSI came out. It's actually this is actually embarrassing because now that we know about like the CSI effect and how hard how everything from CSI is not real and you should not think that that's real. That's like how I got into this. I'm not thinking it was like real. Um, so when I was like 12, like middle school, I got I was really into CSI. And I had grown up on Murder She Wrote and Matlock, which is so ridiculous. But I swear I had always been into those like murder mystery kind of shows. Um and then CSI, I just thought was so cool with like evidence and stuff like that. So I always knew that I wanted to be um an investigator, but I did not want to be a cop. Like I wanted to be a detective, but I didn't want to be a cop. And everyone was like, well, I don't think that that's a thing. And I honestly, I didn't think it was a I didn't know if it was a thing either. But like I went through all of high school, I took all these forensic classes, um, I took, you know, uh college courses, everything aligning with um forensics and criminal justice, psychology. I like that part of it as well. Um, so then I kind of just went that path, not knowing really what I wanted to do, other than the fact that I didn't want to go into police because I was too scared to be a cop, really. Um, but knowing I wanted to investigate. So again, not really didn't really know if that was a thing. And then when I graduated from college, um my brother-in-law was working for the local department of health. And medical examiner offices a lot of times fall under the department of health. Um, so he was like, listen, you know, you're graduating from college. Do you want me to take your resume and send it out to the department of health here? And they have a new medical examiner's office that they're starting, and maybe something will happen. And honestly, it just was like right place, right time. Um, the office at that time, this is a different one than I work for now, but that office was basically brand new. They had just changed from a coroner system to a medical examiner system. Um, and so I was able to get in basically ground level. I really didn't need a lot of experience, and everyone is always laughs when I say, like, you don't need experience to work with the dead because you can't hurt them. So um, you kind of learn everything on the job. Um, and that's what I did. So I went in and started as an autopsy assistant. And then from there, I started doing shadowing on investigations, going out on scenes with other investigators, uh, and then um became an investigator and then changed to a different jurisdiction and became the senior investigator there. So it's just kind of been a slow like ride up from there. And I discovered a job where I'm an investigator and don't have to be a cop. So perfect. Best of both worlds. It's real. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So for those who don't know, what is the difference between a coroner and a medical examiner?
SPEAKER_01Oh, that's a good question. Because people still to this day, oh, you work for the coroner. I'm like, no, I don't work for the coroner. So a coroner system is different than a medical examiner's system because the medical examiners are run by physicians. So they're they're medical doctors. A medical examiner is also known as a forensic pathologist. You can use those terms kind of interchangeably. A coroner is an elected official. So that person runs the office and they don't even have to be a doctor. They could be a local um funeral director, they could just be a local politician, they could be a farmer, like they could really just be anybody who is voted in as coroner and is overseeing death investigations. My feeling is that that's a more antiquated system, although it is prevalent throughout the United States. There's still a lot of coroner systems. There's a lot of hybrid ME slash coroner systems, which I really don't even understand how that works. Um, that's a lot like out in the West and stuff. Um, and then here in New York, it's pretty much all uh we have a lot of medical examiners. So it's definitely, I think, a more, like I said, coroners seem to be a little more antiquated. Medical examiners are, you know, doctor run, so they oversee everything. So I feel like a lot more doesn't fall through the cracks.
SPEAKER_00And how was it? I know initially you got into the work from the impression that you had from TV, but how the worst impression. How did it translate into like real life? What was your what was your first week like on the job?
SPEAKER_01Oh my god, my first week. I've told this story so many times that it's it's worth repeating because it's so ridiculous because I was just so young and naive. So, like I said, my brother-in-law kind of sent out my resume to the Department of Health and I got a call and they were like, Oh, do you want to come in for an interview? I didn't, Dina, I didn't even know what I was applying for. I didn't even know what a medical examiner was. I had no idea. I didn't even Google it before I went. Like, I don't know what I was thinking. So I show up for this interview like an idiot, and they asked like ridiculous questions. Where do you see yourself in five years? I'm like, I have no idea. Like working in the criminal justice system. I didn't even know what this office was or does. And apparently the stamp idiot across my forehead was big enough for them to be like, she's it, she's the one. We're gonna hire her. So I graduated from college and 10 days later I started at the medical examiner's office. While I was still away at college that last month of May, uh, my mom received a packet. I was still living at home. My mom received the packet and she goes, Do you want me to open it? It's from the medical examiner's office. So I was like, Okay, yeah, that's probably they said they were gonna send me a contract, blah, blah, blah. So she opens it and she's like, um, I think you should sit down. And I'm like, okay. So she says, it says for autopsy assistant. And I was like, What? I didn't even know that that's what I didn't even know. This is how young and dumb I was. So I was like, uh, okay. And then my mom's like, you know, I immediately was like burst into tear tears. And my mom's like, you don't have to do it. You don't have to take the job if you don't want to. But I was like, no, like I this is what I wanted to do. Like this, I have to do this. So for the next like three weeks, I was like physically ill, sick to my stomach with nerves. Like I would cry all the time. I couldn't even think about it. I remember my sister making a comment, like, don't talk about it or she's gonna cry. Because I was so nervous. So then I come home and I go out and get all my, you know, Kohl's nice pants and shirt and stuff and get ready for my first day. And I'm telling you, it I was a wreck. I remember that morning I was sitting on my bed, like crying my eyes out. My dad comes in, he's trying to give me a pep talk. He's like, it's okay, you can always just leave. If it doesn't work out, that's fine. You'll find another job. Like, don't worry about it. And then, like, I'm crying, my contact falls out. I'm sitting there holding my contact on my finger while my dad's giving me the pep talk. I'm like, okay. So then I get in the car, I drive over, and I swear, this is why I think this story is so funny because it's just so you can't make this up. So I'm I'm driving, I'm like, okay, I'm good, I'm gonna do this. I come across slaughter road. I see slaughtered road and I start crying again. So I'm like, oh my god, oh my god. So now I calm myself down, I keep driving and I get up past pianos and organs again. I'm a wreck. The place is still there. I've seen the sign recently, and I'm like, oh my god, I'm not gonna be able to do this. And then I got into the elevator to go up to the office, and I randomly saw an old coworker from a restaurant, and he was just a really nice guy, and he was like, Oh my god, good luck. Like, you're gonna do so great. And I just that pep talk from an almost stranger that I had worked with like years ago was just like it gave me that last boost that I needed. And I went in and they were working on um what became uh an atlas of pathology. And so it was all these photos of traumatic deaths and all this horrible stuff, blunt force trauma, sharp force trauma. And I remember I got really hot. I was like kind of sweating. There was like people's like heads bashed in, and I went to the bathroom, I threw put some like water on my face, and um, and then I went back out and within like two days, because my mom's like, Oh, they're not gonna make you go to an autopsy on the first day. Well, like two days later. They're like, Okay, we have three autopsies today. And you know what? I went, it was a like slightly jarring at first, and then it quickly became very similar to like stupid, you know, surgical shows that I watched, and I kind of just got into this zone of like it is what it is. Like they're dead, it's not hurt, the person's not hurt. Like, I think it would be so much worse being like in a hospital or a nurse or something like that, because like the person's alive, you know? Like this person is dead, so yeah, it's it's sad outside of this room for the family that's connected to this person, but inside of this room, like it's really nothing more than a surgical procedure, only the person can't feel anything, you know? Right, and so I was able to stomach it that very first day, and the rest is history. It just never I never really look back.
SPEAKER_00How long have you been doing this now?
SPEAKER_01Oh my god. So that was 2008. So long time. It's gonna be so it's what 18 years? Oh my god, yeah. A long time.
SPEAKER_00So you said your brother-in-law was the one who helped you find the job. So your husband knew right from the beginning that this was something that he wanted to do.
SPEAKER_01My husband and I have been together since high school. We've been dating since high school. We were friends since middle school. So he knew me when I like what got my CSI effect and and um stupidly thought I was gonna be, you know, doing that. Um, and I remember he just never really, never really batted an eye. He's he's in a very, very different field than I am. He is the epitome of squeamish. I do not talk about work with him unless I'm trying to really freak him out, you know. Um, but yeah, we're just we just do our old, we do our own work days and then that's it.
SPEAKER_00How are your kids with it? Do they ask you how your day was or do they marry it?
SPEAKER_01So my kids are um 11, 9, and 6. And um they only recently have found out like what I do. Only my oldest really has only known for like the last year. I used to always tell them, well, I work with doctors and I work with the police. I'm not a doctor and I'm not a I'm not a policewoman, but those are the people that I work with, and I'm a different kind of investigator, and I help them find out what happened to people that get hurt. And so that was just always, they never really asked more questions than that. I always just left it at that. Um, and then about a year ago, I was I did um the lecture for the Girl Scout troop. And so that was really the first time that my daughter like in depth like asked questions and heard about what I do. So now they're just like, you're disgusting.
SPEAKER_00How was it like I don't know what what's your schedule like? Is it all the okay?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So I have um a decent schedule. So I just work Monday through Friday, eight to four is my regular shift. Okay. And then the way we split it up is we do the weeknight, weeknights, Monday through Thursday. Um, one investigator takes each overnight. And you can do that from home, on call from home. So like I always am doing my Monday night overnight. Um, and then the weekends we kind of all split up and take whatever. Um I I honestly do probably the least on the weekends, um, kind of by design. You know, it's it's tough with three kids, um, and we have a lot going on for sure. So I try to squeeze in and help out where I can. Um, but I'm also the boss. So I'm kind of that type of person too. Yeah. Um, but yeah, so I'm I'm always doing, you know, I'm in the office all week and then I do my my overnight and then whatever I need to do on the weekends.
SPEAKER_00How did you juggle having young kids? Because our kids are like about the same ages. How did you juggle when they were all young? I mean, I guess even now it's still chaos because once they get into the extracurricular activities, it's like you're running all over the place. Yep.
SPEAKER_01I know I convinced myself like if I just get through these little years, it'll get easier.
SPEAKER_00And I don't know why we tell ourselves. I know.
SPEAKER_01And now it's worse because now everybody has to get picked up and dropped off, and it's just like, oh my God, it's insane. Um, I don't even know. Sometimes I feel like as women, we just do and we don't even think. And then you stop for a second someday and you think back and you're like, how the hell did I do that? I mean, during the time that my kids were real little, I also taught at a community college, a forensic science class, um, a three-hour course. I did five semesters. And I did that during my third pregnancy. So I went up until literally my due date, um, doing full time as an investigator and then also teaching at night. Um, and again, like I look back and I'm I I don't, I couldn't tell you how I did it because I I don't even know how.
SPEAKER_00That's why I mean, like you said, I think we just kind of do it because what other choice do we have?
SPEAKER_01I absolutely that's exactly. I think just like moms, especially us, like millennial moms, were just taught like you just you're gonna do it all. And I now looking back, I'm like, I wish someone told me I didn't have to do it all. Yes, exactly. I could have stayed home, I could have done something better, but no, that's here we are. Um, so yeah, I don't know. I just did it and I didn't really uh question it at the time, and I just kept pushing. And now, like I said, I look back and I'm like, wow, like man, that was tough. And then it gives you that boost. Like, if I could get through that and be pregnant, and like I'm talking, I was at scenes when I was nine months pregnant. Like I was embarrassed to show up because I was so pregnant, and people would always say something, like the family would be like, Oh my god, like why are you here? And I'm like, Because this is my job. Sorry. Like it was like I was almost embarrassed by how pregnant I was, still working, you know what I mean? Yeah. But I just you just keep going.
SPEAKER_00So because you were so young when you got into this field and it was just something that you always wanted to do, how did you maintain that separation of like who you are as a person versus like what you do? How did or did you because I know with like police work, it gets you're you're just like enveloped in it in the beginning. And it kind of takes over.
SPEAKER_01Yes, for sure. I definitely feel in the beginning, I was it was a lot of my life, and it was a lot of my outside life, and that became a problem. Um, you know, I had a bad day at work, it carried into home. And my husband would be like, you have to let it go. And I'm like, I can't, I can't. I'm already thinking about what happened today and what how it's gonna affect tomorrow. And I was, you know, coming home from work crying and going to work crying and sitting in my car in the parking lot and like being like, How can I even walk inside? And there was just like, it was really tough in the beginning. And I took a lot of it home with me. And then at some point, it naturally, I believe it really was having kids for me, is what changed everything because I didn't have the mental capacity anymore to hold any of that. Because once I left, it was a hundred percent my home life, my kids, my family, my husband. Like I had to focus on that. And there was no more space in my mind for anything else, especially something so negative. Um, and so it just was like a natural thing that took over and I stopped. In the beginning, I used to remember every case. I remembered every decedent's name. I remembered case numbers, I remembered the facts of the case, where the person was. You know, I just I remembered it all. And now that space is gone. So I don't remember a scene that I went to last week. I don't remember a decedent I had two days ago. Like names don't ring a bell, numbers, dates don't ring a bell, like nothing. And I truly believe that that's like a defense mechanism in my brain that it did it itself. It real, my brain just realized like this is too much. You know, dealing with death every single day of your life is too much. And you have to go home to a family. So the second you walk out of this building, we're gonna turn that part off. And, you know, to an extent, because as the senior, I am always like available as far as phone calls, text messages, like I'm always answering stuff that's going on with work when other investigators are on, which is fine, but I just don't let it take over my life and my my outside time like I did in the beginning.
SPEAKER_00Is it kids are such a great way to stay grounded in the present moment? Sure.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Is there anything else that you consciously do? Like I know for me when I'm driving home, sometimes I'll just like put on music. And if it was like a really bad day, I'll just like sing at the top of my lungs just to get it out. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01Yes, yes, absolutely. I do a lot of podcasts where I try to like listen to something because it's we all do this. Like everybody that I work with, like I am a murder documentary type of person. Like my husband's like, you're sick. Like you do this all day, and then you come home and watch murder documentaries all night. Like, can we watch something else? So, like, I do have to do a little brain flush at some point, you know what I mean? And so I love to listen to any kind of like uh an um educational or like some kind of podcast that I can learn from or just hear something cool. And then music for sure is an outlet. I feel like for so many people, it just helps make you feel better, windows down, and like just singing at the top of your lungs, it just makes everything better.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it really does. How have your coping strategies changed over the years? Or have they?
SPEAKER_01Um, like I said, I feel like it was a natural progression. I don't feel like I did anything intentionally as co as far as coping goes. I feel like it's having kids is what kind of like saved me, so to speak, um, and saved my my brain from just being taken over with the negative. Um, I just put all my focus on them, and it helps me to just not worry about work because they're believe me, when I'm at work and I'm seeing somebody's child or somebody's baby or like that kills me. And I go like, oh my god, I have to not think about the people outside of those walls. And it's my job. I talk to them. I am I am outside of those walls in their homes sometimes talking to them. Like, I am in work mode then. But the second that I walk away, I have to be like, okay, you gotta let that go. You know, I have to just actively tell myself, you gotta let that go. Because I can't carry the grief of every single person that I talk to because it's just it's too much. I don't think any person should carry that much grief on a regular basis.
SPEAKER_00No, you really just said something because it's not just the scene itself, it's the emotions of everybody that's there that we don't always think about that we can internalize just because you you empathize with them. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, a hundred percent. You just take on so much when you see a parent, you know, that's sobbing or screaming, or you know, you it's just like it guts you for a second. And that's okay, and that's normal and that's human. And that should happen because if you feel nothing, that's a problem too. And there's plenty of people in this field that feel nothing and then go home and drink three bottles of wine, or you know, so it's okay to feel it for a second and then you go, okay, move on. You know what I mean? And I don't think that that's a cold thing. I I just think that that's a coping mechanism.
SPEAKER_00100% because sometimes we think of compartmentalization as a bad thing. No, but it's not.
SPEAKER_01No, absolutely not. I have I would not have survived this many years in this field without compartmentalization for sure. 100%.
SPEAKER_00Do you guys have any sort of debriefing after like a scene or like a particularly heavy one?
SPEAKER_01Do you guys ourselves? I mean, we do as friends. Okay. So we don't have anything in place through the county, through the office, where they offer us any kind of mental health help or guidance or, you know, anything like that. And in fact, I have actually reached out to the Department of Mental Health and said, hey, is there something we can do for this office for those times when we have a really bad case? And I literally, this was a few years ago now, because I was so disgusted that I never even asked them again. But I literally was told, well, we're really busy right now. So why don't you reach back out in the fall? And I was like, wow, okay, these are your employees that are telling you that maybe we're struggling a little bit because we've had some really rough cases going on. Um, so that's great. Um, so, so no, there's nothing in place um formally as friends inside the office, a small office where we have to have each other's backs. Absolutely. It's like, hey, are you okay? Like, how are you doing? You know, do you want to go hang out after work? Do you want to go for a walk? Do you want to go get a drink? Like, just checking in on each other for sure, because nobody else understands it except for us. You know what I mean? Except for the people that are living it. I can't go home and tell my husband, you know, this is what happened and this was horrible because it's just doesn't, he doesn't get it. He doesn't feel it the way I do. So we all have to check in on each other. Um, and that has been, you know, super helpful for all of us, I think.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it sounds like you became your own peer support just out of necessity.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. I mean, that's exactly what it is. Yeah. And like I said, there's, you know what? Even if I reached out again to the Department of Mental Health and just said, hey, is there some sort of formal thing we can do for a check-in, maybe quarterly, once every six months? How's everybody doing? Has anybody had a really bad case lately? Like, they wouldn't understand. So, what, like, what are they gonna tell us? You know, like we we understand each other, we understand what it feels like to get those cases. And because the office is small, we basically all have a hand in almost every case that comes in. So that so it affects everybody, you know? So it's just it's it works better for us to just kind of take care of our own.
SPEAKER_00And how many years have you been a supervisor?
SPEAKER_01Um, I have been a supervisor since 2015. So already 11 years. Is that a it'll be 11 years in October?
SPEAKER_00Nice. Yeah. Was that something you had to test for? Or was it super?
SPEAKER_01No, that was super unexpected. When I had gotten hired at the jurisdiction I work at now, there was um a person already in the senior position, and she had about like eight years on me. So I was kind of like, all right, cool. I'm gonna be number two for the majority of my career because there's just that one position. There's not a lot of movement. It's a small office, so there's not a ton of movement. Um, so I was like, all right, I'm gonna be number two for you know the majority of my career. And then she's got eight years on me, so she'll she'll leave. And then my last, you know, handful five, 10 years here, I'll probably be senior and that'll be great. I'll it'll bump my pension up and that'll be great. And then she decided to leave um like five years after I got hired. And so then I, and that was, I didn't expect that at all. And then I was next in line just because uh pure out of pure luck, really, um, that I came in in a time of a lot of change and movement. So I ended up as number two um right from the get-go. And then when she left, I was there I was in that position. And I didn't really, no one really taught me how to be senior. Um, I didn't really have any like training on being the middle management, which is if anybody out there is middle management, they know not the best place to be. Um, so I just kind of had to wing it on my own. And some days are great, and I feel like I'm killing it, and other days not so much. Um, but yeah, here we are. So it's been, yeah, about 10 and a half years.
SPEAKER_00If it makes you feel any better, that's how I feel about myself in life in general.
SPEAKER_01I know absolutely.
SPEAKER_00How important is it to you to, I guess, develop your people and kind of show them like the ropes and make sure that they have what they need. I mean, it sounds like you do a good job of supporting each other.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I definitely think we all support each other and help each other out as best we can. Everybody's got busy lives. It's a tough job for anybody that works 24-7 because there have been times where somebody gets sick and you gotta cover that shift, and every single person is like, sorry, I'm busy, you know, and it's it's somebody has to take it. It has to, it has to fall on somebody. So, like, what do you do in that situation? So, you know, you kind of have to all work together as best you can. And, you know, I I definitely, you know, bringing people in and training them from the ground up is a rare thing for us. Uh, we like to try and bring people in with some sort of experience, but regardless, you always have to learn new things. Every jurisdiction is different and is run differently. Um, and so I like to make sure I give people a lot of time in the shadowing, you know, period where there we have some, they have someone else with them because I remember what it felt like when I was thrown out on my own and I didn't know how to work the gurney, I didn't know how to work the vehicle lights. I was just telling someone this story recently and I was laughing so hard at myself because I'm like, again, I'm so stupid. When I first started, I was again kind of just thrown out on my own. I had come from a different um jurisdiction, so I had a lot of investigative experience, but I didn't have experience transporting a body. We did not do that in my previous job. So, in my job now, we actually drive the transport vehicle. We are bagging the body, we are putting them on a gurney, bringing them back. It's a lot more work and it's a lot more physical for sure. Um, and so that gurney was just, I was terrified by that stupid gurney. Um, and so I oh, and I've drive, I've collapsed it so many times and had to call for help and have to have somebody come help me get it. And the vehicles, I didn't know what buttons did what. And so um when I first started, I was coming back from a scene and I was at an intersection and the car in front of me, it the light had turned green and the car up in the front didn't go. So I'm sitting there and just in my own, thinking I'm in my own car and not even thinking about like I'm in, you know, the county vehicle, I beep the horn to tell them like go. Well, I didn't know that the siren was attached to the horn. So when I beep the horn, the all the siren starts going off, and now I can't figure out how to turn it off. So now the whole intersection parts like the Red Sea. And I'm like, oh my god, I start freaking out. So then I'm like, I guess I just go. So I go through this intersection, the sirens are going the whole way. I'm hitting every button, I'm hitting the horn again, nothing is turned off. I drove the whole way back to the office with those freaking sirens going because I didn't know how to turn it off. So again, I don't want anybody else to ever be in that situation where they're just like, oh my god, I have no idea what I'm doing. Um, so I try to really, you know, show everybody the ropes as best I can before just sending them out on their own.
SPEAKER_00Oh my gosh, that's so funny. Was there anything that surprised you about like, oh wow, this is really not the way it's done? Like, you know, TV is nothing like real life. Oh my god.
SPEAKER_01Oh, so many things. There, yeah, there's so many things. It's just not as glamorous, that's for sure. Um, you can't ever get a smell through a TV. So that was probably like the number one thing that I was like, wow, this really sucks. Um so yeah, that's definitely part of it. How just how um creative you have to be sometimes in you know, removing decedents from spaces that are just really difficult to get out of. Um, and yeah, just there's there's a lot of things, but those are what come to mind first.
SPEAKER_00And I give you guys a lot of credit because that's not something that we ever have to deal with, thankfully. Like I I don't know how you guys do it. I know.
SPEAKER_01Well, it's funny because in my jurisdiction, we rely heavily on the police to help us. Um so they they help us out a lot with moving the bodies because we typically are a one-man show. So, like when I'm on call and I get called to a scene, I'm showing up most of the time by myself. So either we can all take a handle or a foot and an arm or a this or a that and move help move, or we're gonna be here for a long time. So we're very, very lucky that the police where I work are are super helpful, some more than others, of course, but they're super understanding and they just want to do their job and get everything done and get out of there too. And um, and so we're we're super lucky to have a lot of really great police departments that we get to work with.
SPEAKER_00That's great. Outside of your kids and your husband, what are some hobbies and interests that you have, like as a human that kind of fill your cup?
SPEAKER_01Um, okay, so typical old lady millennial hobbies. I'm uh big into crochet. Me too. I love to crochet. I I know we have talked about crochet before. Um, so that's like one of my favorite things. Um, what else? I just like am a very crafty in another life. I feel like I would have been just like a full-time crafter or a baker, or like I really love to bake a lot. Um, so like any of that stuff really makes me happy. I enjoy doing that. And really just spending time with my family, honestly, which I know is so cliche, and but I just really do enjoy them. And that includes my extended family too. Um, my sister's got three kids that are similar ages to my kids. So just like seeing all the kids together, being at that stage in my life and seeing my parents as grandparents, like that, so that family, you know, get togethers. We just love to laugh. Laughing is like my favorite. That's my true medicine. Um, so yeah, that that all definitely fills my cup.
SPEAKER_00That's awesome. What if you could go back and tell like young Jackie just starting out something like a piece of advice? What would you tell her?
SPEAKER_01Um, Google what what you're use, maybe, and like figure out what you're applying for. Um, I you know what? Listen, every stupid thing I did, every mistake, every naive move that I made brought me to where I am here. So I don't if I had to go back, I would just probably tell myself, like, you got this. It's all gonna work out. I mean, what 12-year-old has this dream that they don't even know is possible and then really finds themselves in it? So, you know, like I have nothing to complain about, really. I I if I had to go back, I would just I would really just tell myself, like, you got this. Just keep going, don't give up, you'll find your way.
SPEAKER_00That's such a great perspective.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean it's just go ahead. Oh, so I was just gonna say it's just like it's it's true. I just feel very, very lucky to be in this job, um, to have a pension, to, you know, be able to take care of my family, to have health insurance. Like these are the things that we easily take for granted. Um, and it's just it's really nice to just sit back and think, like, wait a minute, like I'm really freaking lucky here. Like, I really hit the lotto, you know? And I try to really bring that perspective into work. Like we always say at work, like we stepped in shit, you know, we really stepped in shit here. Because at the end of the day, you know, if you're getting a paycheck, if you have health insurance, if your family is fed and under a roof, like I'm I I feel pretty lucky.
SPEAKER_00That's such a great perspective to have when this job does get tough because God knows there are a lot of hard days, especially being a 24-7 job and getting called out at all hours of the night. You're oh yeah, sometimes you're like, why the hell am I doing this?
SPEAKER_01Like, why am I doing it every time? Every time I get called at three o'clock, I'm like, I'm gonna quit. I'm gonna quit. This is it, this is the last one I'm ever gonna take. And then you go, all right, you know what? It wasn't that bad. I got some overtime. Then your paycheck comes and you go, okay, you know, I'll do it again next week. Like, it just is like the constant mental gymnastics that you do to keep going. It's that's that's kind of just what it entails.
SPEAKER_00If I remember correctly, on your last podcast, you speaking of being called out on something, you got called out on Christmas or something. Was it Christmas or Christmas Eve?
SPEAKER_01Yep, Christmas Eve, I remember. This was luckily for me, it was before I had kids. I was driving home from Christmas Eve in Jersey at my um family's house. And I literally had to stop on the side of the highway to drop my husband off with my parents so that they could continue on. And I think they were gonna hit midnight mass because it was like 11:30 uh at night at that point. Um, and then I turned back around. I had tights and a dress on. I had to like get to the office, change my clothes. Um, and then I went to the scene, and yeah, it was like, you know, middle of the night. And everyone's like, all right, come on, like my kids are waking up in four hours. Like, enough with the chit chat. Let's do what we gotta do. Yes. So, like, yeah, sometimes you're just like, okay, everybody, just do your job. We all don't want to be here, you know? It's it's some of them are just tough timing for sure.
SPEAKER_00What would you say to somebody, uh a first responder or a last responder who feels like they don't have time to take care of themselves?
SPEAKER_01Oh, I mean, I feel it. I definitely feel that. So it's hard. You gotta carve out any minute and not like 15 minutes of scrolling at your phone. Like that, that's not helping your brain at all. And believe me, I get into that funk myself where I'm like, I have been so overstimulated all day long. I have been dealing with so much at work. I came home, I went into my second shift with my children, and now I'm going to lay on this couch and just melt my brain until it's time to go to sleep. And that does not help. That really truly does not help. So take those minutes and do anything. I also like to work out. Um, I do like three times a week with a trainer. So, like that, you know, he kicks my butt and it's it definitely helps. Um, so whether it's exercise, even if you're taking 15 minutes to just sometimes I just go outside on my back deck and literally just stare out and just take a breath and go, okay, reset. Let me go back in. You know what I mean? Anything, those little moments like that are just so helpful to get you through.
SPEAKER_00That's the thing. I mean, self-care, it doesn't have to be a day at the spa. Sometimes it's just like short car in your driveway and breathing for a few minutes before you go in the house because you know that it's, you know, you're going from one shit show to another sometimes.
SPEAKER_01Yep, absolutely. Yeah, there's just no time to just let that stuff get to you. You just gotta, and and again, I think that's why my my brain turned it into kind of like a coping mechanism is to be able to, you know, compartmentalize, um, because there's just no time. You gotta just move on to the next thing. So if you just carve out a couple minutes every here and there to just, you know, breathe, take a second, do something you love, you know, whatever it is, it just that that certainly helps, I think.
SPEAKER_00That's great advice. So we have pivoting back to work, we have to go to like the range once a year, and we have all kinds of like in-service training that we do just to make sure that like we're all up to date on whatever's going on. Do you guys have that? Like, do you go all together? Is it something you do outside of working hours? How does that work?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so for medical investigators, there's there's really no national standard whatsoever. There's no needed like criteria to be a medical examiner or a medical investigator, excuse me. Um, it's just what your jurisdiction requires. So there is something called the ABMDI, which is the American Board of Medical Legal Death Investigators. And that is something that is like a national standard for us, but it's something that we do on our own. It's optional. My job does not pay for me to do it. My job doesn't tell me I have to do it. Um, it's something I do to just like keep myself like on the up and up, you know? And um, that requires 45 hours of educational like credits every like five years. And so I actually have to get mine done. I'm actually working on mine this year because mine's up at the end of this year. Um, but so like that's something that we do. But again, that's on our own. That's just something I chose to do in order to meet that standard and be able to say I'm certified by the ABMDI. Um, and so that offers us additional um education, continuing education credits. Um, as far as the health department, there's a lot of um like state mandated trainings and stuff. None of them have anything to do with our job or our office. You know, it's completely irrelevant to what we do. Um, so yeah, it's really, there really isn't anything that is standard.
SPEAKER_00So if somebody starting out is listening and wants to get into this field, how would they go about doing that?
SPEAKER_01So definitely uh college would be the first step and getting some sort of background in something relevant, whether it's the medical side or the um investigative side, the criminal justice side, either of those are helpful. So criminal justice majors, um, medical EMT, funeral directors. Um, I'm trying to think of like all the backgrounds of people in our office that are, you know, super helpful. Um, and then looking into the ABMDI. The ABMDI offers a lot of credits, continuing education, trainings, stuff like that, that really gives people an understanding of forensic death investigation. So that's like a great place to start start. They have a lot of really great resources. Um, I do a lot of lecturing and teaching with college and some high school aged kids. Um, and so that's this is kind of all the stuff that I tell them. Um, and then just try to get out there and find a jurisdiction, and it's really difficult, but try to get out there, find a jurisdiction that you can even be an intern at. Just get your foot wedged in that door and don't let it go. And and that's really how I started. Like I said, I went in with zero, zero relevant experience whatsoever. And I just kind of got my snuck my foot in that back door and I did had have not let go, and they can't kick me out now. So um that that's the way to do it.
SPEAKER_00That's awesome. What are you curious about lately? It doesn't have to be work-related, whether it's a new show, a new book, a new hobby, something that you're curious about.
SPEAKER_01Um, you know what? It's actually more the opposite. It's what I I have decided I no longer am curious about. I because when COVID hit, I started, I was very naive before, I'll admit it. I started to learn about the government and how it works and more about like our money and where that goes. And now I'm just like, I I know too much now. And I'm no longer, I have lost that curiosity because the world is looking real dark these days, and I'm thinking I need to scale back my curiosity a little bit.
SPEAKER_00There you go. Sometimes ignorance is bliss.
SPEAKER_01I'm telling you, I say that all the time. I'm like, sometimes it really is. It sounds so stupid, but it's just like when you have kids in this world, it's like sometimes I feel like I'd rather just not know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Exactly. Is there anything that you wanted to talk about that I didn't bring up?
SPEAKER_01Um, I don't um one thing that I don't think people realize um is that we are, like we said in the very beginning, last responders. Um so although we deal with the heaviness um of a lot of what first responders are also dealing with, um, and we are in there, albeit a little bit later than others, than others. We're not like the first ones there. Um, we, as last responders, we do not have nearly the same kinds of benefits that first responders get. And we're not comparable. I'm not saying we we still are apples and oranges. I'm not saying we should have everything that police or fire or EMT should have. Um, but we are oftentimes a square peg and a round hole. Um, and falling under the Department of Health is really difficult because it makes us just regular civil servants with like a 30-year, you know, trajectory. And it's just not the same as, you know, Mary in finance and who works her nine to five. And I there's no real Mary in finance, just by the way. I just made that up. But you know, poor Mary. Um, but like it's we're we're not, you know, we get compared to that, but we're doing work that's more comparable to our police and EMT counterparts. Um, and there's certain Um, like benefits that they get that we don't get. Um, so that's difficult. I just read a story recently, and I'm probably gonna screw it up. So I should have probably Googled this before, but um, it was about, I can't remember where it was, but it was about a death scene that was going on on like the side of the highway, which I've done a hundred million times. And um, the scene was closed down, road was closed, it was should have been a safe scene, and a drunk driver plowed through and hit several first responders and the coroner that had responded, the investigator. And the investigator for the coroner's office was severely injured. Um, and just that person's family, like if that had happened to me, like my my you know, health department, they're not gonna do anything, they're not gonna pay any additional, you know, health benefits. It's like whatever my health insurance covers, like there's no additional benefits, there's no claims that you can, I mean, it it would be a workers' comp situation, but there's other additional benefits that first responders get that we aren't entitled to. Um, so like that's kind of scary. And I never really thought about in that until I read that article and I was like, oh, I I never even considered that. Um, but yeah, so that's something that maybe needs to be like looked into more and and brought up more.
SPEAKER_00And yeah, that's a great point because even though you're not there first, you're still on the same scenes that we're gonna do. For sure.
SPEAKER_01We're still going into sometimes really unsafe conditions. And, you know, after a house has burnt down, you know, we're still walking through in these, you know, who knows what's gonna, you know, fall apart or crumble. And it's deemed safe, but you know, it's it's just safe enough for us to go in and and pull a body out. Um, you never know. It's just unfortunately accidents can happen at any time, and so it's it's a little scary to think of that part of it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that really is. And also, I mean, me going back to the mental health part of it, yeah. 30 years is a long time to be doing this work, too, especially without mental health resources throughout the process.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, mentally and physically, 30 years is a very long time. Notoriously, our office has had many, many back injuries. Um, we've had multiple people out for extended periods of time for back surgeries, back injuries, um, because we are doing a lot of heavy lifting. Um, and yeah, the mental health aspect, I don't think anybody considers for us. And it's truly sad because it's something that we should be talking about constantly, I think. Um just checking in and making sure that everybody is okay and that everybody, you know, is able to get past that bad case that they had and they're not using any, you know, kind of bad coping strategies and, you know, alcohol or anything like that. That's certainly not gonna help. Um, so yeah, there's definitely a lot more to be considered in the future of death investigation and and we'll see where that goes.
SPEAKER_00I just had a thought while you were talking. I don't know how your local, like the police EAP programs work. I know like the state troopers have a good EAP program. Okay. If if they would maybe extend that to you guys.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, we're part of the DBA um in the county that I work in. So I don't know if that if any of the local precincts have have anything. Um, there are state police are are also in that DBA um group with us. Um, so yeah, that might be certainly something to look into. Um, yeah, that's a great, that's a great thought.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um I okay, wrapping up. Last question because I know you are a freaking rock star because you're here and you have the flu, and I really thank you so much. Um I don't want to keep you too long. No, thank you for that. This has been a great conversation, of course, because I always like to end on a high note because these topics can get heavy sometimes. What is your favorite karaoke song?
SPEAKER_01Um, I would say, as a true millennial, I gotta throw it back to that 90s hip hop RB style. I have my number one go-to is salt and peppa shoop.
SPEAKER_00Love it.
SPEAKER_01And that's yeah, it's gotta be that.
SPEAKER_00It's gotta be that. That's awesome. Thank you again so much for being here, especially given the fact that you're taking care of sick sick kids at home and you're yourself.
SPEAKER_01You know what, mom, mom and ain't easy.
SPEAKER_00Like you said, I mean, you're just you don't even think about it.
SPEAKER_01You just do it because great. Appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00And in case you guys haven't heard today, you are loved, you matter, and you are not alone. Amen. Thank you so much for stepping outside the line with me today. If you enjoyed this episode, consider sharing with a friend or to your social media network. And if you do, please tag me so I can reach out and thank you. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are personal opinions, not reflective of the host or guest department. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. If you're struggling with your mental health, please seek professional health. Resources are available. In case you haven't heard today, you are loved, you matter, and you are not alone.