Episode 24 - Organizational Wellness with Dr. Kenneth Quick

Welcome back to Outside the Line - the podcast for cops who are learning to stay anchored to the real world.

This week I'm joined by Dr. Kenneth Quick - professor of Criminal Justice at DeSales University and retired NYPD Inspector.

Ken talks about staying anchored to the real world while moving up the ranks, seeking help for his own personal struggles while serving as an NYPD Sergeant, and how his research led him to advocate for officer wellness on an organizational level.

Connect with Dr. Kenneth Quick:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/kenneth-quick-phd-13175228a/

Kenneth.Quick@DeSales.edu

https://www.kennethquick.com/

Connect with me:

https://www.instagram.com/outsidethelinepod

https://www.facebook.com/outsidethelinepodcast

Transcript

0:02

Welcome to Outside the Line, a podcast with conversations about keeping cops anchored to what really matters: life outside the thin blue line. I'm your host, Dina Campbell, an active duty NYPD detective on a mission to normalize conversations around resilience and mental health and help cops develop self-awareness and an identity outside their career so they can enjoy life and thrive in the real world. Outside the line welcome back to Outside the Line, the podcast for cops who are learning to stay anchored to the real world. Today I'm here with Dr. Kenneth Quick. He's an assistant professor of criminal justice, excuse me, at DeSales University. And he's also a retired inspector from the NYPD from my job. So Ken, thank you so much for being here with us today. Oh, Dina, uh, thanks for having me. I'm uh really looking forward to being a guest today. I've listened to a more than a few episodes, and uh I like the message, like like the content, and uh was thrilled when you when you asked if I join you. Oh, thank you so much. I'm really looking forward to this conversation. So if we could back all the way up, what initially led you into law enforcement? I I wanted to go into law enforcement since forever, like since I can remember. And you know, um looking back on it, I think there was a story that really kind of shaped me when I was young. Uh one of four, right? I have two sisters and a brother. And uh, you know, my father passed away when I was about 18 months old. My brother and sisters are both all older. Um, so my mom was raising us, you know, with my grandma was living with us and stuff too. And I remember being about four years old, and I was really excited because I I wanted a pet and I thought there was a uh bird flying around in the living room. And my brother um actually was the one who informed me. No, that's a bat, right? Uh growing up in in uh in New Jersey, where where I grew up. Uh, and so a bat had gotten loose in the house, flew in through an open window, right? And so this was no pet. Uh, and so my mom really didn't know what to do, you know, single mom, four four young kids in the house. So, what did she do? She did what a lot of people probably would do when they had to have no idea of what else to do. She called the police, and so my one of my first memories is these two officers coming to the house. Um, one was a female officer. And uh looking back on what I know now, I think it was probably like a field training type of thing because uh, you know, my mom had handed a broom to the officers, and the male officer hands it to the female officer and tells her, go take care of it. So, you know, it was a it was a line of duty death. She took care of the bat uh and basically restored order to my family that was completely in chaos. And so it's something that I always remember that story, and I didn't necessarily see the connection until later when I was an actual police officer. But I do think that that's where I started to have this admiration and like this healthy respect for the police and the fact that they go in when when everything's out of control, and I wanted to be a part of that. And then when I was in college, you know, studying about it as a criminal justice major, I kept hearing about you know different studies about the NYPD. And I heard an ad on the on the radio that said, you know, call 212 recruit. And I figured if I can do it anywhere and make it anywhere, I'll try it out in New York. So that's what I did. Oh, that's so cool. And that that actually is an interesting point, and I think something that cops don't really think enough about. You know, when people, like you said, are panicking and they don't know what else to do, and and everything is chaotic, they call the police and we're just expected to come and restore order. And maybe they didn't think that it was anything, you know, that significant. Like they didn't think that anybody's life was saved. If anything, the bat's life was taken, right? Right. But it made such a big impression on you. Yeah. You know, it's little things like that, you just never you never know how you're gonna affect somebody's life. Well, that that's true. Like, you know, fast forward uh years into the future, right? And I've taught some leadership classes with the NYPD. Now I teach uh some police leadership classes uh with Penn State. And, you know, when you talk to people about why they became a cop, so often it is stories like mine, whether, you know, not a bat, but that school resource officer that sort of you know mentored them. And now that you pointed out, I don't know if those officers ever really get to fig find out that impact that they had on others. So, how old were you when you went into the academy? It was early college, you said? Yes. Well, so I took the test in in college and I actually um you know graduated and I went in in that July. So I was in that July class, and you know, it was funny because my family is not really particularly, or I should say at the time, now they're very pro-law enforcement. At the time, they were not really pro-law enforcement or anti-law enforcement, they were just kind of like, that's the police, they do their thing, you know, and we do our thing, right? It wasn't like I grew up in a house where there was, you know, a lot of exposure to the police. In fact, my grandmother, who I I shared, you know, had a big role in raising me. Uh I'll never forget when I told her I wanted to be a police officer, she told me it was like stabbing her in the back with a knife. She did not want me to be a police officer. I know that's pretty bad, right? She did not want me to be a police officer. You know, she thought that I was uh quote unquote too smart to be a cop. Um, you know, because her her brother was a police officer back in the you know, 1930s or whatnot. And, you know, she didn't I don't think she thought very much of him, so therefore she didn't think very much of police, but it wasn't it wasn't something that I was really encouraged to persist. In fact, I was tried to several people tried to talk me out of it on the way, which made me want it that much more. Of course. So you get in, and do you feel like you had some sort of identity outside of law enforcement, or did you get kind of enveloped in the job pretty quickly? Um, you know, I've always managed to keep friends outside of law enforcement, but I do see how some of my hobbies and outside interests kind of faded, and you know, um taking overtime when you could do overtime, you know, to make extra money, uh, becoming part of that world of, you know, just policing, watching police shows, watching, you know, uh thinking about it, being involved in work. I mean, it's an exciting place to be. I was never really one of the people who listened to like the police scanner when I was off duty. Um, but I would say I could definitely see a point in my life where I was definitely more in the job than out of the job. Yeah, it happens. But I love that you maintained friendships with people completely unrelated to law enforcement. And that's something that I always encourage people to do because it really keeps you anchored to who you are outside of what you do for a living. Yeah, yeah. But and I agree with you wholeheartedly, but at the at the same point, I do acknowledge that there's certain things, right, that it feels like only police can under can truly understand. Yes. And one thing, and the reason why I think I've been able to maintain non-police friendships is because I accept the fact that there's some things that they they're gonna see the world that way they see the world because of their exposure and life experiences. And you know, I'm going to see the world slightly differently, which I'm sure we're gonna talk about cynicism and having to be aware of how we do develop this negative worldview. But I think that you know, if if you can't if you can't maintain that clarity to sort of they think what they want to think about the world, and I can think what I want to think about the world, then yeah, that's where the friendships really start to get affected. Oh, sorry, I don't know if you can hear my dog in the background. So, what influenced your decision to become a supervisor? Oh, I, you know, I'll say this. When I did join the NYPD, I told myself, you know, that if I didn't like it, I was young and I could quit and I could go do something else. But I really loved it. I I fell in with the police culture. I loved the camaraderie, I loved the teamwork. I did, I always loved that emergency aspect of not knowing what's gonna come next on the radio, right? And um the the unknown of what you were walking into, right? Like uh I also love amusement parks like and roller coasters because I love the adrenaline. So that part of policing I always liked. Um and so that's basically, you know, I I I said I was gonna uh go on and do something else if if need be, but I really fell right into it and and enjoyed, you know, my career, especially, you know, the early years in policing. So you asked me why did I want to become a supervisor? I started seeing while I was out there, like there was such a difference between uh the workers and the non-workers, and uh I saw the difference that a good supervisor could make in motivating people and really wanting to build that camaraderie, that teamwork, and sort of you know, rewarding the workers and getting the non-workers to kind of pick it up a little bit and contribute to the team. And that's what really inspired me to you know seek out a supervisory role. Having those those good supervisors that were able to do that, to build that team and sort of you know, boosts some of the cynical, burnt out officers who really were not interested, not engaged, build them up, motivate them a little bit, but also reward the people that are working hard. And I know we'll talk about your, you know, going back to school and getting your doctorate in a minute, but since you mentioned the cynicism and you know, because we can our worldviews get narrow, we see people on their worst day all the time. And when you're constantly chasing the radio, it's you know, some days it's like you're constantly in backlog, you can't clear the calls fast enough, you you do end up getting cynical. So, how were you able to how did you approach those cops who maybe were so burnt out that they didn't want to do anything? This is uh as a supervisor, you know. I the one thing that I find is I you know, everybody has a story. Uh I think everybody starts out wanting to do the right thing. And then, you know, somewhere along the lines in in their mind, they got shafted, right? By by the job, by police work, you know, whether it's that civilian complaint that was completely off base, and yet they they felt that the job um, you know, fed into the person too much, or maybe you know, they got disciplined, or that day off that got canceled that they thought shouldn't have gotten canceled. So the I think the way that I really tried to motivate officers was by you know connecting with them and and finding common humanity, right? And and when when you can relate to police officers and show them that this is a team and that they're part of a team and other people are counting on them and show them how listen, you're upset that you got your day off canceled, you know, or you feel that that happens a lot, but by you not contributing to the team, who are you hurting? You're not hurting anybody who canceled your day off. You're not, you're not like the message is not getting through. The only ones that are or you're really hurting are your co-workers who now aren't able to get a meal because you're taking longer on your jobs, or you're not responding, you know, in a as expeditious a manner you should, you shouldn't, you're not backing up as much as you should. And so we're hurting each other. You're not hurting the brass or or whoever it is you feel wronged you, right? You're actually hurting each other and you're hurting your coworkers. And that's you know, that's not right. That's not the way it should be, right? And that's only making the situation worse for everyone. And that's a good perspective too, because it also gives somebody a sense of um agency, you know, like you may not be able to control that your day off got denied, but you can still control, you know, you don't have to be happy about it, but you get to choose how you show up to work that day. Yeah, exactly. You know, I always think of that heroes video. Yeah, I'm sure a lot of your listeners are non-NYPD, so I'll describe it. But there is a video that the NYPD, a promotional video that they put together and they update it and they play it at uh police academy graduations, department ceremonies, promotional ceremonies. And so everyone in the department knows this video because inevitably, if you've worked in the NYPD, you've seen it. You've seen it at least, at least 20, 25 times, if not more, right? And so this particular video puts together a compilation of various components from the job, some radio runs, some like presidential events, escorts, the Pope visit, uh events around Madison Square Garden, ESU rescuing, you know, somebody on a rope line. And it's narrated by James Earl Jones, and it's heroes, always heroes, right? And it's these this this motivational type of music. And every time, if you're a cop, every time you've watched this video, I don't care how cynical you are, I don't care how much you hate the department, you are filled with this immense sense of pride that you are a part of something that is bigger than you and that serves such a noble purpose, and it immediately brings you back to when you first joined and when you graduated the academy, right? And it's just this immense feeling of pride. And I've often wondered like, is there a way? It's like it's like I'm on a quest for the fountain of youth, right? Like, what where how can we bottle this? How can we like take this video and make it in capsule form so that people can find a way to carry this with them all the time, no matter what's going on in the world of their life? Because we could show the video every single day, and what would happen? Everybody would get burnt out on the video, and it'd be like, eh, this video again. I'm texting my wife, um, you know, cutting my toenails. It would totally lose all its appeal. But yet, whenever we play it, because it's not played that often, we all get that feeling. So, how do we find a way to get that feeling inside of cops every day? If we could, we'd have the best police force, best motivated, most officer wellness, uh, least amount of suicides, obviously, you know. Um, I don't know, we got to figure out a way to do it, Dina. How are we gonna bottle that video? I don't know, but when we figure it out, there will be signs. Everybody will know. That's it. So when I when I first was introduced to you, I was going through, speaking of officer wellness and suicides, I was going through the peer support program. Yes. How did you get involved with peer support and health and wellness and all of that? Well, it's an interesting story, right? So I I went up through the ranks from the job, and you know, I I was um I I was a uh precinct commanding officer, right, in 6-6 precinct in Brooklyn. And um, you know, we we it was great. I I I loved being a precinct commander, I love being a supervisor, and I I've been blessed because I've had really good teams everywhere I've worked. Uh, you know, I think police, people who dedicate their life to this profession are like the best, best people in the world, amongst the best people in the world, right? Um, so I I've been blessed. I have had great people working around me. So when I went to the 6-6, I had a fantastic time there. But but you know, part of the story of how I got where where I was too was that within the 6-6, which if if you know the precinct in Borough Park, Brooklyn, serves a large Orthodox Jewish population. And it's funny because I got sent there, I was the commanding officer of uh the specialized units for the borough, right? Most of my time was spent with borough anti-crime. So I went from like the 6-7 guns, you know, gang suppression, all this, to the 6-6, which is not that there's no guns, there's guns because they border some very busy precincts. But mostly with the Orthodox Jewish, which, you know, a lot of community relations, community events, uh relatively, you know, crimes that might not seem that significant can become very significant because of a high-profile population uh that's living there. So while I was the precinct commander, there was actually a very large scandal involving the whole NYPD, where um a member of that community from the 6-6 precinct was um allegedly uh there were high-ranking members of the department who were dealing with this individual and their business partner who were outside the 6-6, but it was high-level corruption. In fact, uh Bill Bratton at the time said that this is the worst corruption scandal ever to rock the NYPD, right? Well, forward, fast forward, a lot of people being forced to retire, uh, a long investigation. Uh nobody was actually convicted of anything, right? One person was acquitted, one person took a plea, uh, right, but nobody was actually gone to trial and found guilty of anything. And at that time, the 6-6 was really in the limelight. And so I was trying to, you know, keep officers motivated, support some officers who, you know, uh may have been tied up with what was going on. Uh, and it was a very challenging time. And the community was also becoming very discontent with the police department because um at the time, because of the political nature of everything, they weren't getting the same response from headquarters that they thought they should be getting. And so me and the people at the precinct were sort of like we were doing the best we can. It was a very tense time. And I got a phone call in the middle, you know, towards the end of this, actually. I got a phone call from uh a friend who told me, you know, that um there was a position open for an executive in what was deputy commissioner administration at the time. So I ended up speaking to the deputy commissioner uh and uh Kathy Perez, right? Really dynamic, uh very energetic, um visionary, right? Really had a different vision for the NYPD. And she said that her unit was in charge of morale and um officer engagement and was supposed to be like a conduit for the upper administration to the police commissioner to really get to know what the rank and file wanted, what they needed, and that you know uh this was work that was gonna help change the department. And so these were all buzzwords that I heard, and I wasn't necessarily looking for an administrative role, but that and uh you know, other factors, I said, I'm gonna, I'm gonna jump into this. So that's how I ended up going to administration. And then fast forward, right? She ended up leaving. Another commissioner, Bob Ganley, uh came in and you know, I said, Hey, I'm ready to go into the field if you want, you know, it I'm free to go. And he said, No, you know, I want you to stay. So I stayed and worked with him and then come to 2019. So we're the unit that's in charge of employee engagement and interacting. A name change happens somewhere along the lines. We change it to Deputy Commissioner Employee Relations, which is what it is today, because it's supposed to. Be this conduit again to help cut through some of the government uh the department bureaucracy to get to what the boots on the ground, the rank and file need, what they're feeling, and be attentive to it. 2019 we start going through a really bad road with suicides. And at that point, we're involved in um in officer wellness because it's part of morale and engagement. In fact, we have um some of our offices dedicated to looking into officer suicides, right? Uh, Dr. Jeff Thompson, right, was working for us at the time, and I know he's a uh colleague of yours too, so you know who I'm talking about and doing some excellent work there. Uh so the team is working in that area, and then there's this tremendous spike in suicides. We go from usually about four to maybe five a year to more than double that, 10. Well, double four, right? Uh, 10, 10 suicides in one year, and most of them in the in the earlier part of the year, one of which was a one-star chief, right? That and so that really sort of sent shockwaves through the department that what is going on here, right? Officers are are killing themselves at a rate that we haven't seen since we've been keeping records on this kind of stuff, right? So that's where we started uh really trying to be proactive. That was when the employee assistance unit, you know, came to employee relations, and and it was all part of a move to make something new, you know. That's where the health and wellness section was born. Make something new that is able to respond more quickly to these types of mental health crises. You know, like we have the medical division, we had personnel, and they're doing good work, right? But I always say they're an aircraft carrier, right? The personnel bureau. They do good work, but it's a lot of people in the personnel bureau managing for 35,000 uniform, another 17,000 civilians. Well, employee relations, you know, that's like that that Coast Guard cutter that can respond quickly to the person who's drowning, right? That that was the that was the vision, and that's how health and wellness section was born, and where peer support, right? Again, part of Jeff's work, peer support, was really uh put together as a way to address this issue that we had at the time, officer suicide. And yes, that's how we met. Yes, and I it was I was surprised by how many people were actually willing to sign up for this and and speak openly about their own mental health, you know, challenges and how they got through it. I mean, I remember meeting a guy, he wasn't in peer support, but when I was working at EAU, he's long since retired now, but we were just talking and he was like, Yeah, I went to recall it the farm. He he struggled with alcohol, self-disclosed seven times and and had nothing but good things to say because he got help that he needed, and even when he, you know, relapsed and struggled again, the department was still willing to help him. So he even he was like, you know, it wasn't the first time, it was the second time and the third time that I thought that I was really going to be in trouble because you know it didn't work. Right. Like, but I tell everybody now, you know, go speak, you know, get seek help because resources are out there. So just the fact that we were starting to have these conversations, I feel like in my own command when I was there really helped move the needle. Yeah, yeah, it definitely I think I think it does, I think it did, and I hope it still does, right? I'm not that involved with that program anymore, but I I hope that it still is. Um, and you know, back with that suicide crisis with the health and wellness, and we're sitting there, we're talking about what's going wrong. I'm in on all these meetings, these high-level meetings, right? And uh trying to figure out what's going on. And I remember specifically being in a meeting and them talking about, you know, what we need. We need a person who's like a high-level executive who has suffered, who has gone through something to come forward and to really kind of, you know, say what's going on. We're talking about, again, because you know, Chief Um Silks had had taken his own life. So it was we need to get the executives on board for a their mental health, and B, also that some of this hopefully will roll downhill. Because the one thing that we always find when we look into officer stress, number one stressor of officers, not getting killed in the line of duty, right? Not at least by their own reports, it's management, it's it's supervision, it's it's that organizational stress. So I'm sitting in this meeting and I'm like, oh geez, do they want me to like tell my story? And then of course I feel compelled eventually. And so I shared with the room that, well, you know, actually back when I was a sergeant, I I had some some personal difficulties and and gotten to some hot water and got helped through the job. And you could have heard a pin drop, Dina. No one knew. No one knew. I no, I thought they I thought that that they were kind of like hinting, like, would I be the person to do this? I don't think I knew. People almost fell out of the chair. Because honestly, um, I listen, I am a partier. I'm I'm still a little bit of a partier, right? But I just don't need alcohol to do it anymore. But uh, you know, college bleeds into early cop, right? You're doing the four to fours, you're going, you're hanging out. And listen, I would never, ever, ever blame the NYPD for my drinking, but it didn't help. Right. I mean, uh, it didn't help. It didn't cause it, right? And I wouldn't even say that it made it worse, but it didn't help, right? And like I was uh, you know, when during my early time on this job, up until me getting promoted to sergeant, I like to drink, I like to go out, I like to party, I like to have a good time. And, you know, as a cop, people are your your co-workers, you know, it's funny, it's fun, you know, they'll cover for you a little bit, you know, it's all good. But when you get promoted and and you're coming into work, right, like all torn up, and and you're telling people to do things they don't want to do and you're not in a good mood because you're not feeling well, uh, you're not gonna, you know, you might not last that long, right? And um, you know, I was I was a victim of of myself, right? And my own my own desires and ended up having, you know, an off-duty incident. You know, I like to say, oh, I came to the job and I said, Oh, I have a problem. I knew I had a problem, but I wasn't willing to come to the job. You know, I was looking for a solution, but I didn't want the real solution, right? Which was get sober and stop drinking. Um, but ultimately that's the decision I had to make, but it was because the job gave me a little kick in the butt and gave me the motivation. And you know what? I'll never forget when I was sitting um basically in a world of my own self-destruction that I created, and oh, everything was crashing down on me. Duty captain, like, you know, just not not looking good. And there was one little beacon of hope at that point in time, and it was my SBA delegate, right? And I'll never forget, you know, he said to me, he said, Listen, you might not know you have a problem or think you have a problem, but you're the only one who doesn't. Like, and you need to get help. And if if you do, like my brother-in-law is running marathons, he's doing this, you know, he's sober and he's living his best life, but you need to really like come to that that conclusion. And that beacon of hope, right, ended up going, you know, to the farm, as as you said, and uh, you know, that beacon of hope is really what kind of sparked the change. The, you know, are you I always think of the Shawshank redemption, get busy living or get busy dying, right? Yes, exactly. Um, and that was it. Like I said to myself, like, you know, this is just something needs to change. And so that's that started me on on the path that I am on and continue to be on today. But um, I do remember another thing I would like to share just about that is you know, I was tremendously embarrassed to be a sergeant. And as much as things are confidential, you know, people talk and and things things happen and people find out and stuff like that. And, you know, um, I ended up calling that same delegate and telling him I was in the 8-3 precinct at the time. And I said, Whatever I go, I don't care. I don't want to go back to the 8-3. And he said, uh, well, I could probably get you central booking, but and I was like, Listen, I don't care where it is, I'm not going back, I'm not facing those people, I'm not doing it. Fine, put me in central booking. And then, you know, I went through the program of recovery, and you know, by the end of my little stay there, I actually called him back and I said, you know what? Forget about it. I'll go back to the eight three because I realized that you can't you can run, but you can't hide, right? And and you gotta own this. So I did go back, and it was a difficult place to go back to, but I'm so glad I did. And I did see the true side of policing, you know, and and this is something that I've gone on to study, and uh, you know, it's um it's a phenomenon called pluralistic ignorance, where we feel like we don't look down on other people getting looked for mental health, but help for mental health, but we feel that other people and other cops look down on it. Therefore, we will maintain that false group like perception that doesn't exist because you as officers, do you think that it's wrong for officers who who need help to ask for help? You'll get overwhelmingly no, they should get help. I would support them, I wouldn't think less of them, I would think they were strong. But that collective thing makes me say, I'm not gonna come forward because I think the group has this false reality. So I didn't know that was a good idea. I was glad I did that because you know what it was a growing moment for me, and it did it did show me and reaffirm that that police they will embrace you, you know, and and you know, I managed I continued to climb up the ranks. I got a department scholarship, they sent me for my master's degree that like a year later, unheard of. I mean, they send you to the farm and a year later you're winning a department scholarship. If that doesn't prove that the left hand doesn't talk to the right hand on this job, right? Uh, you know, fast forward, was it 10 years later? I'm sitting in that room up in the first deputy commissioner's office, and they're saying we need an executive to come forward and talk about their hardship. And I thought they were hinting at me. They were not hinting at me. They did not know. But it it really is a more powerful message. Not that it's anybody's struggles are when somebody decides to get vulnerable and share their story. Of course, it's a powerful message, even more so when it's somebody who's who is an executive who rose up the ranks and was like, hey, I'm still a human being, I still had these struggles, and this is how I got through it. It's it's I I think it's just a more powerful message of hope coming from somebody that high up because you're like, wow, people you know in executive positions really do care, you know. Yeah, well, yeah. And I remember, you know, as a police officer, I didn't think that they were human. Right. You know, I really didn't think these people, it's like, you know, when you're a kid and you think your teacher sleeps at school, right? Exactly. Yeah. Uh, but it it shows the humanity. Everybody struggles, everybody has hardships, everybody faces some kind of crap in life, right? I mean, you have to, especially if you're a cop. I always say, right, like if you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth and never faced adversity, you would not join the police department, right? Um, so therefore, you know, is it is it whatever your affliction is, whatever your problem is, that you should be judged by? No, you're gonna be judged by what you do about it. Yes, right. Yes. And and a lot of times, like nobody likes to struggle and go through things, and we think that we it's the adversity that we don't want, but we actually need it because that's how we grow. It's it's the tools that we need to face the adversity that are the important thing. Yes, yeah, absolutely. Uh, one question before I get into going back to school, and I do want to talk about that. When you were a bow or excuse me, a precinct commander in the 66, going through all that stuff, you you know, like cops have other cops to lean on, but who does a commanding officer lean on because everybody in your command is a lower rank than you? You know what I mean? Like they say it's like lonely at the top. Who do you who did you surround yourself with for support? Well, that it's it's difficult. It really is difficult because especially when things going on like that, everybody's kind of afraid, right? To talk. Nobody knows who's involved, nobody knows who knows what or whatnot. And, you know, going into that, one of my, or I would say my mentor, right? Somebody who I really respected and continue to respect, but really sort of guided me and shaped me, was deeply involved in this, was one of the executives who got deeply involved in this, forced to retire. And this was a person who I would call, you know, when I didn't know who to call to ask for guidance, right? Because we worked together. Um, and I I was his uh executive officer, second in command, right? So during this time, I used to say, listen, the the uh I it's like I'm I'm steering the ship, but all my navigation went black, right? So I gotta try by the stars here. I will say though, I brought a lieutenant to work for me uh shortly before this happened. And that was just a godsend because he's uh and continues to be a friend, right? So even though he's a lower rank than me, he was a confidant, and we were able to talk through some of the issues and sort of you know try to maintain steady leadership there, which is so important, and it's and the lieutenants that I had were good, you know, were very good. And even like the admin lieutenant had been there, I mean, like 25 years as a lieutenant or in the command or something along those lines. Um, and he was also, you know, good for historical knowledge, and you know, I I had a good team around me that we got through it. Good, yeah. And it's good that you weren't so um like you you weren't you do have to maintain like a separation with the rank and everything, but you could talk to them as a human being outside of rank, just level with them human to human. Yeah, yeah. And thank God I was sober by that point for several years. Otherwise, I don't think I would have, I don't think I would have been there, period. But if I was by some twist of fate, I don't think I would have handled it as well. When did you make the decision to go back to school? So once I was in uh administration, you know, I got this opportunity to go for this um executive training program, um, Police Management Institute. It's run by Columbia University. And so uh as an executive, you know, when you get to go there, there's a group, I forget if it's about 20, 20 executives the department sends. You go one weekend a month um for about a year, and you learn from Columbia's faculty uh all about strategic visioning, management, budgeting, all these things that that would be helpful as you continue to climb the rank ranks. Um and I had to say, the one thing that really struck out to me was that this faculty there from Columbia, they were doing such what in my mind important, meaningful work by helping shape policing, by training the executives, but they were also having fun doing it, right? And and living a lifestyle that I said to myself, you know, I love being a cop, but if I'm gonna do something else, I think I want to teach, you know, I think I want to become a college professor, I think I want to, you know, get involved in training, law enforcement, you know. Uh, and that started getting me thinking about going back for my PhD. Like I had my master's at that point, but going back for my PhD, you know, as a post-retirement, you know, something to use. You know, I would love to say that the police department really values education, but unfortunately, I feel like they have people in the rank and file who do have extensive training and extensive knowledge, and they don't always listen to them. You know, somebody told me once you can't be a prophet in your hometown. And that's the way I felt about it too. That if I if I'm going to do something, I feel like I have to go someplace else. That coupled with family, family life and wanting to, you know, uh move my family and stuff for personal reasons. But the real impetus for going back to getting my PhD was I want to do something that's going to help law enforcement, help policing. But I think in order to really get people to listen to me, I A have to have the credentials and I have to be able to walk in both worlds. I can walk in the police world, but I can't walk in the outside world as a researcher, scholar, subject matter expert, somebody that somebody that others might really listen to. So that's why I decided to go back. And initially I was really interested in officer wellness. Uh perhaps suicide, but I always wanted to know how does officer wellness affect how um we do our job on the street, how we interact with the community, how do we, you know, engage the public, you know, the level of service we're providing. And through my studies, I've kind of danced in that world, the officer wellness world, and some of my research focuses in that area. But um also through that, we I've hit upon what we talked about, right? When you talk about officer wellness, what really stresses officers out is this thing that we call organizational culture and climate, right? And it's that at times that toxic organizational culture and climate, which is born of cynicism, of that negative worldview of everybody's trying to get over, everybody's trying to scam. Uh, we have to use negative reinforcement on the cops. Uh, when you make a mistake, we gotta punish you, we gotta punish you hard. You know, let's not just punish you, let's give you highway therapy and throw you on the other side of the city so you have a three-hour commute each way, every day. Let's put you on the shift that we know you hate, you know, and let's have this punishment be open-ended so you never know when it's gonna be over with, right? Yeah, let's go against everything we know about organizational justice. And you know, it's all related. It's all related. Your wellness, right? It's so related to the organizational culture and climate and how we serve the public. So that's where I'm really going, right? And that's where my evolution of my research has has gone from being exclusively officer wellness. Now I would say I'm more into organizational culture and organizational climate. And how do we start to move the needle there to be a more um supportive culture, you know, that also has accountability, but that can get officers to come forward and ask for help, but you know, also go out and do a great job with the community that they serve. Yeah, I mean, and you know, if there's no trust in the organization because of all of these things, then it doesn't matter how many resources the department offers and how great they are, if there's no trust, then nobody's gonna use them. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, that's like the starting point, right? You have to have trust. Uh, and that's a really hard boulder to move. You know, cops do not trust the job. I've done some research in this area, and uh, you know, it's interesting. I think we have a better chance of getting cops to try to get other cops to get help, right? That's why we're getting more promise through peer support than we do through just the job saying, come trust us, you know, we won't we won't hurt you, right? That's we've been trying to move that boulder for a while. Yes. So are you still researching this now? Are you continuing or are you focused on teaching? Like what are you doing now? So I yeah, I do a little bit of it all. So I teach, I teach at um the sales, you know, in their undergraduate program and their graduate program. Uh so that's my full-time job. I'm also I teach with Penn State. I do uh leadership training through their Justice and Safety Institute. It's part of their community outreach division. So uh it's great. I I get to teach leadership classes. Um teaching a field training officer class this week. Uh so I like to um use some of the teaching skills that I picked up on, plus some of my research and fuse that directly into people who are still doing police work, which has been awesome. Uh, I do some international research through John Jay, where I got my PhD. Uh, you know, did some officer wellness and uh disorder control training and um uh gap analysis in El Salvador. Uh so I try to keep acclimated in that world. And also, most recently, my research is really looking at organizational turnover intention. And I've studied the NYPD a couple of times in a couple of studies that recently got published. What's driving cops to want to leave? What makes cops want to stay? Right. And is there anything that the police department can do to sort of uh address this? Address this, like this. In fact, one of the articles is called Mass Exodus that I wrote in a in a policing journal. Because is there a mass exodus? Right. And we found that, yeah, there is a high level of turnover intention within the NYPD, which I don't think is just the NYPD. I think it's policing, probably more specifically urban policing in America. But there's a lot of officers who are not satisfied with their job. You know, they feel they feel trapped, they feel like they're waiting for their pension and they're biding their time to get there, but they've lost that feeling that they're really contributing to society. And and maybe even more importantly, they've lost that feeling that they have an organization that's gonna back them up and support them, you know, when they do the right thing. There's a lot of fear out there that if I do something and it doesn't look good, the department's gonna wash their hands of me and I'm gonna be the next one on the front page of the paper. Yep. And I mean, I I have 15 years on, and I even when I came on, it was this was gonna be your career. People didn't normally just leave. I mean, when I got to after I finished Impact, which is what we called field training, and I got to my permanent command, there were there were plenty of cops with 20 plus years on, and we just don't see that anymore. Do you think it's a generational thing? Do you think it's a cultural shift? Is there any, you know, like it generally speaking? I think one of the worst parts about this, when I talk to officers that have significant time on, I they feel from the officers I've spoken to about this, they feel that there's really no, there is no um respect for seniority anymore, right? Like when we got on the job, right? You knew your days off, especially your three-day swing, you were coming up to your three-day swing. You knew that there was a good chance they were gonna hit you with something. Your first two, three years on the job, you kind of knew. But you know what? You had a light at the end of the tunnel, and you said to yourself, someday I'm gonna be like that guy or gal, right? Like someday I'll have five years on, I'll have 10 years on, and I'll have quality of life, and I'll be able to spend time with my family, or I'll be able to do what I want outside of my vacation picks. Well, over the past couple years, some of it, you know, some of it might be because of um, or is likely because of a mass exodus, right? In the wake of the George Floyd incident and people leaving the job. So I don't think the staffing numbers are where they need to be. But there's there's no light at the end of the tunnel, right? I have friends, you know, 20 plus years working in the Detective Bureau who basically retired because like every weekend they're getting forced to do transit overtime or they're getting forced to go, you know, to a busy precinct to stand on a street corner with uh not much of an idea or indication as to why they're there, what's expected of them, and when is this gonna end? Like, when am I gonna get my days off again? So up until very recently, maybe some of that has changed with some overtime. I'm not sure, right? I'm not that engaged in the job that it gets constantly. Yeah, it hasn't changed. Okay, I believe it. When you can't give people days off, you're messing with their mental health, you're messing with their family. And I'm sorry, I feel that the the leadership is so quick to pull this trigger of, well, just give us a thousand bodies for this detail, or just give us a thousand you know, bodies to flood transit for crime suppression. There's a real life cost behind those decisions. Like this is this is people's lives, their mental health. And I think we have the data analytics. You know, if we can have uh comstat and we can pinpoint crime and we can drive down crime, why can't we manage our workforce and see who's working, how much have they worked, right? Like how much overtime are they forcing? We can tell you exactly where every single robbery is happening. Yeah. So I think there's a lot to be done here on that front, but it comes at a cost. Yes. It comes at a cost too. And it's not, I don't want to, I don't, you know, I'm not just speaking about the NYPD here because I do have friends in Philly PD, and you know, I speak to people in other police departments, smaller cities. It that's the way it's happening. We're using these old school techniques of well, just use overtime and just put the bodies on the dots, and the crime will fall. There's there's it's not a limitless resource with manpower. Exactly. What is uh second to last question before we wrap up? What's something that you're looking forward to? Something I'm looking forward to. Well, I am going on vacation with my family this summer to Costa Rica, so of course I'm looking forward to that. Uh I'm also going, you know, with my kids, we're doing a mission trip right through our church, trying to give back. I like to do that, right? So we're going to West Virginia. Um I love that you're taking your kids with you too. Oh, well, they're no, they're taking me with them, right? If it wasn't them, I don't know if I want them to do it and suffer through the heat, Dina. I don't know if I want to do it and suffer through the heat. But they have to have chaperone. So I'm a teacher who's off in the summer, so tag I'm it. Exactly. Uh, but the truth is, is I'm I look forward, I'm I'm constantly that's one thing you know that I've learned is I'm constantly giving myself things to look forward to to keep me prodding along, you know, whether it be a vacation, a little getaway, um one of my kids' athletic events, you know, it's there's always things to use to look forward to as rewards for going through life. So true. Um that's such a great note to end on. Um, last question though. Sometimes these topics get heavy, and I do like to end on a high note. What is your favorite karaoke song? How did you know I like karaoke? Wild guess. I told you I like to party. You did say you liked to party. I did. Well, my favorite karaoke song is Love Shack by the B520. Yes. Which I I have two partners, right? Because I I need a stand in in case one's not there. Uh, they're both longtime friends, right? Uh, one is a friend from high school. Uh, and the other, if she's not available and I'm around the other, is my friend's wife, right? Uh from he's a cop, and that's how I met his wife, and she likes karaoke too. So love shack. Oh, that's amazing. That sounds so fun. This has been such a great conversation. I really appreciate you being here. Thank you so much. Yeah, Dina, thanks for having me. It's been a pleasure. And I hope I hope I was able to say something that might have helped one of your listeners. I'm sure you did. And guys, thank you so much for tuning in, tuning in again this week. In case you haven't heard today, you are loved, you matter, and you are not alone. Thank you so much for stepping outside the line with me today. If you enjoyed this episode, consider sharing with a friend or to your social media network. And if you do, please tag me so I can reach out and thank you. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are personal opinions, not reflective of the host or guest's department. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. If you're struggling with your mental health, please seek professional help. Resources are available. In case you haven't heard today, you are loved, you matter, and you are not alone.