The Science Of Having That Dawg In You | Les Alfred

In this episode of Curiosity Theory, Dr. Dakotah Tyler and Justin Shaifer sit down with Les Alfred, host of the podcast She’s So Lucky, to explore ambition, resilience, and the pursuit of self-actualization.

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Les shares her journey from wellness content creator to entrepreneur and media voice focused on personal growth, financial autonomy, and creative evolution. The conversation dives into the psychology of criticism, the importance of friction in personal development, and the difference between what audiences say they want versus what actually drives engagement.

They also discuss the pressures of visibility in the creator economy, the role of authenticity in building an audience, and Les’s concept of the “post-peak pivot”—the idea that long-term success often requires evolving beyond your most visible moment.

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Hosted by Dr. Dakotah Tyler and Justin Shaifer

Stay curious.

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

Welcome back, everybody. Another episode of Curiosity Theory. I am your co-host, Dr. Dakota Tyler, astrophysicist, uh science communicator, author, and to my right.

SPEAKER_00 0:14

And also long-winded. Um, I'm your co-host, Justin Schaefer, also known as Mr. Fascinate, a science media producer, science communicator, and we have the incredible pleasure of being joined here today with the one and only Les Alfred. She's the host of She's So Lucky Podcast. Les, why don't you tell everybody what's going on? How are you feeling today?

SPEAKER_01 0:33

I feel good. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00 0:35

All right, we're gonna dive into some really interesting topics today. We're gonna talk about the science of having that dog in you. We're gonna talk about what it means to create pivots in life when you need to, uh, philosophically, what it means to be on a path towards self-actualization. And is there any other stuff I'm leaving out? I think that that's about it. Pretty much sums up the gist of it. All right. Well, if you want to learn more, you better stay tuned and lock in with us right now.

SPEAKER_04 1:04

I remember we sat down one time, we was talking to some guys, and and uh, and one of the dudes was like, Nope, we're not gonna manspread, and then did one and then like cross it over.

SPEAKER_00 1:15

But I feel like I said I feel like we're chronic manspreaders. I feel like we both just do like this the whole time. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what that's about.

SPEAKER_04 1:21

Is that you're comfortable? Did you ever what was your take on like the manspread epidemic?

SPEAKER_01 1:27

I've never thought about manspreading a day in my life.

SPEAKER_04 1:30

Really? No, yeah. Well, I guess the arguments that I heard was that there was something patriarchal about me having extremely tight hip flexors and having to sit like this. And it's like it speaks to you know the assumption that I can just take up all this space because of sexism, basically.

SPEAKER_00 1:52

Yeah, I feel like I've heard that. I feel like it usually comes up in the context of like if I'm sitting down next to someone. That's different though, though. And then I but it's like this one like on the airport, and you're taking on an airplane, you're taking up like both of the things. But you gotta, if it's two big guys, it's like, bro, we we got come on, man. We're gonna have to snuggle up a little bit. But here's how it goes.

SPEAKER_04 2:10

They really pack us in your arm, you know what I mean? Yes, sardines, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:17

It feels like they're trying to maximize the amount of like bodies they can get in that, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:23

But it to an extent that it doesn't need to be.

SPEAKER_00 2:26

Yeah, yeah. You just got off a flight, Les. Was that did it feel like that? Did it feel like a slave ship?

SPEAKER_01 2:31

It didn't, but the seat next to me was empty. So another lucky moment for me.

SPEAKER_04 2:37

You ever had the full row?

SPEAKER_01 2:39

I have.

SPEAKER_04 2:40

I'll put the armrest up and go to sleep.

SPEAKER_01 2:43

Yeah, I've done that a few times.

SPEAKER_04 2:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

Yeah, so it wasn't that bad. But also, I'm kind of small, so I don't really need as much room, maybe.

SPEAKER_04 2:56

I'm pretty big. Word on the streets is I'm like 6'5.

SPEAKER_01 3:01

Is that the word on the street?

SPEAKER_04 3:03

So the thing is about our show is I keep my ear to the streets all the time. Like, so I'm always abreast.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

You do. You catch on to like the what what'd you what happened yesterday on threads when the the thirst was real and you caught on to people talking about you?

SPEAKER_04 3:20

Somebody tagged me on that too. Somebody tagged me and that and said something about an uh astrophysicist with a grill. Why did you wear your grill this time? But they got me, I actually forgot to put it on in some pocket. But they taught me, they um they called me light skinned.

SPEAKER_00 3:34

Yeah, and that that was yeah, that's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_01 3:36

That's what said that's what set it off. Well, uh do y'all identify as you seem defended.

SPEAKER_04 3:43

Shocked, more than anything. More so shocked, right? Like, do you consider yourself light skinned? Not necessarily. Do you?

SPEAKER_01 3:52

I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 3:53

Maybe you don't know, maybe you consider yourself dark skinned?

SPEAKER_01 3:56

No, maybe like somewhere in between, depending on the season.

SPEAKER_04 4:02

Is that like brown skin?

SPEAKER_01 4:03

Maybe.

unknown 4:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:04

Well, I don't, I I never considered myself light skinned. That's not how I think of myself. And to find out that I got news for you, hordes of people online are saying that behind my bat and to your face. Right. So this is the six five issue. And to my face. The six where did that come from? I don't know. I didn't say anything. All I tweeted, all I tweeted was I said it must it's cool to be it 6'5 as an astronomer.

SPEAKER_00 4:31

So doesn't that sound cool?

SPEAKER_01 4:32

Is that not a factual statement?

SPEAKER_00 4:35

What did you mean by that when you said it was cool to be 6'5 as an astronomer? I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 4:39

I like I think it's cool to be a tiger. Does that mean that I'm a tiger? Could it could mean that?

SPEAKER_01 4:46

You're implying.

SPEAKER_04 4:47

Was that I think it's implied. Was that a so if I said that, you would think like, oh, this guy must be a tiger. That must be a tiger behind the keyboard. You wouldn't think that.

SPEAKER_00 4:55

If you said it's cool to be a tiger, I would think you were like a mascot for reading comprehension.

SPEAKER_04 5:00

Uh our whole platform is about it's about critical thinking, it's about education, it's about learning, it's about learning being cool, right? It's cool to know, it's cool to learn things, it's cool to assess information. Critical thinking. I never said that. These were assumptions. We learn this in science. What are your assumptions? You must you must critique your assumptions. You don't always know what the assumptions are.

SPEAKER_00 5:24

So, how did you how did you anticipate? Because I think also the impetus with science education and communication falls on us to make sure that we're communicating in ways that people understand and we like have a clear understanding in our heads of what we want people to take away from what we say. So, what did you want people to take away from what you tweeted when you said it's cool being a 6'5 astronomer? I don't have Twitter or thread posted, whatever.

SPEAKER_04 5:48

Oh, on threads? Yeah. What did I want people to take away? All I want, my deepest desire some people would say that this is very selfless. Some people would say that I give too much, you know? I care too much about the well-being of you know society as a whole. I want people to think better for themselves, you know. That's all I want.

SPEAKER_00 6:12

That's what you wanted people to take away from that most. Growth. Specifically. Growth. I love like growth in terms of height.

SPEAKER_04 6:19

I'm glad that you brought this up. I love, I love people, I love the community that we've built. I love black people. I love all people. I just want people to I want people to be better. You know? And if I no matter what I'm willing to do, you know?

SPEAKER_00 6:35

No matter what it takes, you know.

SPEAKER_04 6:37

Yeah. All right. How do you feel? What do you want to go? What do you want to, I guess for our audience, which is majority men, pro probably don't come into contact with your content or your um your podcast. I know your audience is majority women. Um, what what is it that you feel like you always want to get across in your messaging to your audience?

SPEAKER_01 7:03

I think the biggest thing that I want to get across to my audience is I want them to believe in themselves and I want them to not feel like anything is out of reach for them. Like you can do whatever you want. It might take some work.

SPEAKER_04 7:16

Do you believe that?

SPEAKER_01 7:18

For the most part. Yeah. Yeah. Now, can I be a six-five astronomer? I think it's too late. But I think so. I think it might be too late. But not with that attitude for some other things, whether it's like something that I really want to do or achieve or have. I think it's possible.

SPEAKER_03 7:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:37

With intentionality. And I actually have recently had more male people uh engaging with my content.

SPEAKER_04 7:46

Oh, yeah. I wasn't my bad. I wasn't trying to like pigeonhole you.

SPEAKER_01 7:48

No, no, no. It's fine. Just the other day, I had someone comment on one of my podcast episodes on YouTube. It was like, I think I'm the only guy here, but this was really helpful. Yeah. And I'm like, you know what, Gene? Good. I'm glad it was helpful.

SPEAKER_00 8:00

It was a Gene?

SPEAKER_01 8:01

It was his name was Gene.

SPEAKER_00 8:02

Well, Liz, you know, I've been liking your content for a long time. So I've been a male supporter for a minute. Um, why do you think that is, though, recently that that's evolved or changed?

SPEAKER_01 8:11

Probably because I'm on YouTube more now than before.

SPEAKER_04 8:15

Is YouTube male heavy?

SPEAKER_01 8:16

It is. I would say a lot of YouTube viewers and people who tend to engage with content more on YouTube tend to be men.

SPEAKER_00 8:24

Hmm.

SPEAKER_01 8:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:25

So you don't think it's anything about the nature of the content? Like I know we talked about this off the podcast. Like you had a shift between from being kind of the balanced black girl to having this she's so lucky platform.

SPEAKER_02 8:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:37

Um, which, you know, maybe it'd be helpful for our audience to just understand that balance and, you know, what would actually change. But do you feel like it had anything to do with that?

SPEAKER_01 8:46

No, because I mean, whether I don't know if a guy is gonna see balanced black girl or she's so lucky and she's like, look, this is for me. You know what I mean? Um, yeah, but I did start off in wellness. I was a uh wellness girl for a long time. I was like a personal trainer and a fitness instructor, and I talked a lot about wellness, and that was really how I got my start on the internet. And after like five years of podcasting, deep diving these very wellnessy topics, it was like there was only so many probiotics I could tell people to take before it was time to expand, you know? It was like, we got to talk about something else.

SPEAKER_02 9:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:25

Um, and so that was when I started shifting into more of like the self-help, self-improvement, talking more about entrepreneurship, creativity, and the audience really took to it and it really started growing once I made that shift.

SPEAKER_00 9:35

Interesting. Yeah, interesting. I think, you know, something that we talk about in like the science communicator circles is like I think the wellness folks sometimes get a bad rep with us, you know, because uh what often happens is um, you know, people critique industries like pharmacy, right? Like big pharma, but you know, one of the things that the medical industry isn't as guilty of, or I don't think is even capable of being guilty of because of the FDA is um being able to peddle, like being able to pedal products without any professional expertise, you know? Um, and so a common critique of the wellness industry from a lot of science communicators is like, well, wait a minute, you know, you're taking people that don't even have to take the supplement, don't even have to be a part of the process of making the supplement, don't have to be qualified as experts to create the supplement. And those are the primary promoters of the supplement because they're influential people.

SPEAKER_04 10:26

Uh and like making claims that have not been like medically substantiated. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:32

But I think a lot of that comes down to what we were saying earlier, which was like explaining things in a way that people can understand. So I think people are more susceptible to listen to influential people if they're able to speak directly to what a person's dealing with. They haven't been able to get answers elsewhere. They can understand what that person's saying. I see why people fall down that rabbit hole.

SPEAKER_04 10:52

Yeah. And it's yeah, and it's usually very easy to understand, like you said. It's like I I I feel like one of the staple things is like, oh, you know, look at the ingredients. You can't say these things, therefore, they must be bad for you. But if you take this natural supplement that's just raw milk straight out the udder. And there's people, and there's people who that works on.

SPEAKER_01 11:17

It shouldn't. Oh it shouldn't.

SPEAKER_04 11:20

It's so gross.

SPEAKER_01 11:21

It's a bad idea.

SPEAKER_04 11:22

Yeah, yeah. Do you drink milk?

SPEAKER_01 11:25

Sometimes. Not raw, pasteurized.

SPEAKER_04 11:29

Yeah. Um like what um when might you send down and have a glass of milk?

SPEAKER_01 11:36

I would say I put it in things, you know, like cereal. But I would never really just down a full glass of milk, but you know, in like a smoothie.

SPEAKER_04 11:44

I used to when I was a kid. Ray raise your mic up a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 11:47

Yeah, I'm trying to figure out.

SPEAKER_01 11:50

Um, but also there was a lot of like pro-milt propaganda back then.

SPEAKER_00 11:54

The got milk campaigns were oh my god.

SPEAKER_04 11:57

Larry Michael Jordan, just everybody with a milk mustache. Yo, what was that about, man?

SPEAKER_00 12:04

It was about we had all these cows, dairy farmers, and it was all in schools. Like as kids, we were inundated with that message. It was propaganda. It was it was literally propaganda.

SPEAKER_04 12:14

It was literally propaganda. And they told you that the calcium makes your bones stronger. But there is actually evidence that the people with the strongest bones, which they uh quantify by having less breaks, like proportionally for the population, are in countries where they don't drink cow's milk. Because you don't get the calcium in milk that does not like absorb and go into your bones. So it was all lies.

SPEAKER_00 12:42

Literally all propaganda. Wow.

SPEAKER_04 12:45

Crazy. And I used to I used to kill milk. I would sit down and drink a glass of milk with anything. I did grow up to be strong.

SPEAKER_01 12:54

Wow. So you're feeding the propaganda.

SPEAKER_04 12:58

Yeah. Yeah. So um so you changed your, you know, you had like a change in your podcast. Yeah. And I like I post, I be I'd be posting your clips sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 13:08

You guys appreciate that.

SPEAKER_04 13:10

Yeah, you well, you have like great, like great mindset tidbits in in your clips. And um, you know, what Justin was saying is that oftentimes like the the self-help, the mindset, it almost gets like lumped into this like toxic grindset sort of thing.

SPEAKER_01 13:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 13:29

And is seen as like bad. But that is the mindset that I usually have about things like that you gotta be resilient, you gotta be tough, and you can toughen up. And you know, oftentimes when you are exhausted or whatever, or you feel like um you need to take a break, a lot of times you could like talk yourself out of that. And there is a way to do it in an unhealthy fashion. But I also think that like being tough, that's a you don't even have to be special to be resilient, you know? Like you don't have to have been born with some magnificent brain, or you don't have to be like six-five, you know, you could just like try really hard.

SPEAKER_00 14:06

Right. Yeah. Do you feel like Liz that the cultural pendulum has swung too far in one direction? Um, it it seems like that might be a reason why this content shift has been so successful for you and resonates with so many people because there almost is an appetite for grit and perseverance and tenacity, it seems like in the zeitgeist again.

SPEAKER_01 14:29

I mean, I think a lot of people are looking around, realizing like nobody's coming to save you, like nobody's coming to just pluck you out of obscurity and hand you all of the things that you want and desire. I mean, maybe, but it's highly unlikely. And so I think for a lot of people who may want better for themselves or better for the spaces that they're in, like it's gonna take action to do that. And I also think just with how much turmoil and turbulence and like uncertainty that we just have collectively, that also motivates people to focus a little bit more on their own actions and what they can control because so much feels out of control.

SPEAKER_00 15:07

Yeah. Yeah. A lot feels out of control right now. But uh, this is kind of a uh, I don't know if this is a part of your kind of philosophical, philosophical makeup when you look into some of these things, um, like stoic philosophy. Um, I don't know if we ever talked about that, but kind of this idea of one of the tenets of stoicism is maintaining this inner sphere of self that kind of stays not like necessarily emotionally stoic, but rather unbothered by, I guess, the highs and lows of life. So when you do something like entrepreneurship or you try to launch a podcast, you know, there's times weeks where you have these huge upticks, and there's weeks where you feel like I don't want to do this anymore because it's just it's too much work and not enough results. And like stoicism would suggest that the big stuff doesn't get to your head and the little stuff doesn't make you stop. Um, and it feels like that's it's almost like your podcast is almost stoicism-coded.

SPEAKER_01 16:00

Really? Interesting. I never thought of it that way.

SPEAKER_00 16:04

Yeah, um, again, and and you know, I think a lot of times when people think of stoic philosophy, they misinterpret the term because they think of it in the context of literal lack of emotion, but it's actually more being unfazed. Yeah. At least in the philosophical sense.

SPEAKER_01 16:19

I mean, I think being an internet person for as long as I have, I think I've also realized like you can't lean into the applause too much, the same way you can't lean into the criticism too much. There's always gonna be both, and people will love you one day and hate you the next, and you gotta just stay true to your mission and doing whatever it is you feel called to do.

SPEAKER_04 16:41

Do you feel like you used to, is that is that like something you've gotten better at?

SPEAKER_01 16:46

Yeah, I used to be so afraid of criticism and so afraid of like anybody being mean. And now when people are mean to me, I'm like, oh, it's up. Like this is actually a good thing. Cause it means I'm reaching people, I'm pissing people off. That's like a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 17:00

How did you get to that point?

SPEAKER_01 17:01

I think I just realized if people are agreeing with you all the time, you're not actually reaching people. You're not reaching very many people, and you're probably in an eco chamber.

SPEAKER_04 17:13

Do you what do you feel like you're do you feel like you have really good but strongly disagreeable positions? Like what is something that you may have in the past worried about expressing and uh, you know, being critiqued for or like hated for, if you feel comfortable saying something.

SPEAKER_01 17:31

I think a lot of my content recently has gone more into like financial things and money and like specifically telling women in particular, like y'all need to get your money up and not wait for somebody else to do it for you. Like, um, and I know, you know, for some of the soft life girlies, they don't want to hear that. But the truth is, part of being an adult is having a sense of financial autonomy.

SPEAKER_00 17:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:58

And so, yeah, that's pissed people off a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 18:01

What how does that like what are people's reactions to that?

SPEAKER_01 18:05

I'm broke feminine. And I'm like, you can be feminine and also like know what's happening financially. That's not an inherently masculine thing, that's a being an adult thing, yeah, you know?

SPEAKER_00 18:18

Yeah. Yeah. I I mean, I find like that quality in a woman like desirable. You know what I mean? Like being rolls, like not necessarily like sugar mama, but like the idea, yeah. I think as as someone that's dedicated so much time to like exploring and expanding my own financial habits and literacy, like to, you know, like not have someone that I'm interested in that isn't at least interested in growing in that way, if they're not already there, then it feels like you're just gonna like throw away money that I spent so much time and energy trying to trying to put together. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:53

And it's just a safety issue. Like you can't actually be a safe human putting all of the autonomy in the hands of another person.

SPEAKER_00 19:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 19:03

You can't.

SPEAKER_00 19:03

Yes. I I think that's a bar, but that's but it's very controversial.

SPEAKER_01 19:06

It's the it can be controversial. Yeah. I don't think it should be, but it can be.

SPEAKER_00 19:11

Man, that's that's so interesting. I I I love this idea that you're you're talking about, like that, yeah, like things that are agreeable aren't reaching people. Because it like makes me try to try to think about like, wait a minute, what echo chambers have we created even on our show that we don't that we don't think about? You know, it's like, are we talking to people? Could we be talking to more people? Uh, or could we be more disagreeable? You know, and is is that, you know, like we we even talked about like certain topics that we want to avoid because we don't, you know, it's not because we don't want to ruffle, like I don't feel like either of us are afraid of ruffling feathers.

SPEAKER_04 19:44

That's not one of the kind of ruffling feathers. Yeah, I'm about to say that's that's not an affliction that I have uh Yeah, I think even more so than me. But like I think I might like it a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 19:53

Yeah, I think so.

SPEAKER_03 19:54

Yeah, I would agree with that.

SPEAKER_04 19:56

Think so? Yeah, yeah. Wait, what do you think that I well hold up? I'm interested. Wait, whoa, whoa, whoa. What is so what do you think, what things do you think that I like ruffle feathers about? Or like what about me makes me feel that?

SPEAKER_01 20:06

No, I feel like you you troll a little bit, and so it seems like you like to get like a reaction out of people.

SPEAKER_00 20:13

What? It's like a little Nas X kind of thing. I feel like troll? Yeah, yeah. I feel like little Nas X is like the screen of. Yeah, man. I feel like I feel like Yeah, okay. Yeah, I feel like, yeah, like like if if we were to like yeah, if this was like an ancient times and it's like medieval, like the code would be like the the drester. Like he would come out with his bag of tricks and his objection, your honor. And he would be you know the jester. He'd be coming in with all the you know, all the entertaining jokes.

SPEAKER_04 20:47

I agree that I'm hilarious. I agree with that point that I'm very funny. Um, you know, I could probably come into any conversation with levity, you know, have people laughing, enjoying themselves. I agree with that. Highly charismatic. I think you were on point there, but jester per se, like it's a clown, like I'm a clown.

SPEAKER_00 21:08

I don't know if like jesters were respected. No, like I mean, in the king's court, you're not gonna like mess with it, bro.

SPEAKER_04 21:15

You're so the thing is, is you're not gonna gaslight me into thinking that the the most honorable and respectable position in the king's court is the jester, literally the clown. Interesting. So another thing that I've noticed is that like kind of what's happening right now, I feel like I'm on attack on either side. Um, and there's something about yeah, I don't know. I think that I have I do like a little bit of negativity, is like it does drive me. But why?

SPEAKER_01 21:50

A little friction?

SPEAKER_04 21:52

Yeah, yeah. In a yeah, well, I think that like in general, like in a sense, the friction is always what you need to grow, right? Like when When you're a kid and you're and you start growing, they they call them growing pains because your bones are like stretching, right? Um, when you're reading something, if you've ever read something and you like uh could not tell what you were reading, like you kind of had to go through a passage again and be like, oh, what is this person saying? That like act of confusion, that like feeling dumbness is you learning something. And um, so I think that the the something I love about the gym is like that. And I've you you begin it in. I've you know check your little stories out. You always are in there, like why are they little stories? I mean big, you doing your big you're doing your big enormous thing with those big, huge, massive stories. There we go. There we go. Put some respect on that. It wasn't like that. And um, I like that. Like I like the there's something that I get from like the struggle. I just I wrap it up in this is just what I call like the dog.

SPEAKER_01 22:58

Do you think it's part of that stems from like being an athlete? Like that athlete's mentality?

SPEAKER_00 23:04

I think a part of it probably does. A part of it does. Wait, what are you referring to? The workout thing or the troll thing, or kind of both?

SPEAKER_01 23:11

Like leaning into tension and leaning into discomfort.

SPEAKER_00 23:15

Um I almost suppose I guess your default. Like it's like, ah, this is kind of a slow day. Let me see how I can.

SPEAKER_01 23:21

How can I make it harder?

SPEAKER_04 23:26

Um that's a good question. It's I think it's personality driven for sure. And I think that we probably all, and I don't know if it's social conditioning or if it's like biological and genetic, but we all have like, yeah, a default somewhere. And mine has been always more like slightly more like rebellious or independent. And um I don't know, maybe like this constant subconscious need to like define the boundary around me. And maybe if you this is a good question. I uh appreciate the this line of questioning. Um still not cool with the jester thing, but like if if you enter in a space and do what we call like trolling or any sort of friction creation, then you do like define the boundary around yourself in that space. And I do wonder that you asked if that was like something that um is like does it like make me feel better about myself? Does it make me feel more independent? Oh no. Makes me like myself more.

SPEAKER_00 24:33

Interesting. It makes you like yourself more.

SPEAKER_04 24:35

Yeah, I feel like every day I like myself more.

SPEAKER_00 24:37

As a result of the friction you're creating.

SPEAKER_04 24:40

Uh no, no, no, not at all. And I don't even think that I create a lot of friction.

SPEAKER_00 24:46

But you but you said it makes you like yourself more.

SPEAKER_04 24:48

So yeah, just every day, I guess. Just being me. Okay. More myself. And so like I try to do that more.

SPEAKER_00 24:54

Okay, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_04 24:55

I yeah, I understand. I feel like you you had a clip just the other day that I reposted where you were saying something about that, about like being yourself, moving in that direction, not being afraid uh of like the dimming your light so other people don't feel the same.

SPEAKER_02 25:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:09

Right. And it's like being yourself will hold up a mirror to people who aren't. Because it's like there's this thing deep inside of us. This is one of my beliefs. There's like this thing deep inside of us that wants to be seen. And it's like who we are and what we're aligned with. And it wants attention. And if you ignore that in yourself, then it like it still wants attention. And it can't get it the classic way. So it like uh converts to jealousy or it converts to like trying to tear somebody else down because inside you still and it's subconscious, but you still want to be seen and you want to be recognized. And if you don't do that for yourself and like love yourself in a way so that that happens, then it'll come out in like negative ways.

SPEAKER_01 25:55

Yeah, I think a lot of people have voiced sentiments of, well, when I start doing better for myself or things start getting better for me, like the people closest to me are the least supportive. And I think why so many people experience that is because when you start doing better, it holds up a mirror to those people's excuses. So if somebody is from a very similar place under similar circumstances, they've told themselves that's why they can't have X, Y, Z. You come from the same circumstances and you start doing it, like they get really uncomfortable because now you're confronting their excuses or their beliefs about themselves. And it makes people, you know, maybe friction in a bad way. Um, but I think if more people can like lean into what makes them great and be willing to do what makes them great, then we don't run into that as much. Cause then you don't feel a way about someone having something good because you know that you can have good things too.

SPEAKER_00 26:51

Do you find in yourself, Les, a similar sentiment that Dakota's articulating, where this friction you're creating maybe feels like a step closer to self-actualization?

SPEAKER_01 27:02

Yeah. I mean, I think from a young age, I always felt like if something was good for me, I'm gonna do it. I don't care if I don't like it. I don't care if I don't like the vegetable, I don't care if I don't like studying, I don't care if I don't like the workout. Like if it's good for me and if it's gonna help me reach a goal, I'm gonna do it. And I don't care. I don't need to enjoy everything while I'm doing it. And I think that was just a quality that I've had from a very young age that has definitely served me well. So I'm not always like seeking out friction, but I'm not going to avoid it if I know that like what I want is on the other side of it.

SPEAKER_00 27:33

And did you feel like there was like a, I mean, because we kind of were alluded to earlier in the episode was this transition that you had from being the balanced black girl to being she's so lucky. Did you feel this friction kind of bubbling up internally with the voice that you were putting out then compared to the voice that you're portraying now? And that's kind of what also caused that shift to happen.

SPEAKER_01 27:57

In some ways, I do feel like I outgrew it. Um, because when I first started creating content talking about balance, it was because I'd been on this like fitness journey and I just went a little too off the deep end. I was like doing a little too much in the gym. I was being a little too weird with food. And so when I started talking about balance, it was like, okay, you can like also enjoy your life a little bit and not be so extreme. But when people hear the word balance, they then assume that like everything has to be in equilibrium. And so for a long time, I would talk about that because it felt like that was what people wanted. And then finally I was like, what do I want to talk about? Not that, not that, because I've already talked about it and I'm kind of over it. And so it was more so like I guess being a little less people pleaser-y and more so just trying to please myself by talking about the things I actually wanted to talk about.

SPEAKER_00 28:46

That's that's like a fascinating transition. I mean, when I think about what a lot of creators do to grow their platforms, it's leaning more into what the audience wants and like putting their ear closer to the audience. That's even something we've talked about. Like, you know, we we want to do a better job of understanding who our audience is and what they want, but it sounds like your growth has kind of come from something else.

SPEAKER_01 29:07

Well, the audience doesn't really know what they want. I think the audience knows how they want to feel, but they don't always know what it is that's gonna help them get there. So I feel like my job is to decipher okay, my audience wants to feel empowered. They want to feel abundant, they want to feel like they can reach their goals. They might ask me for something that's actually not gonna get them there, but because that's how I know what it is ultimately they want, I can then package it in a way to like sneak it in there for them.

SPEAKER_00 29:38

How do you decipher that? Like, how do you conclude that with conviction?

SPEAKER_01 29:42

Because I've just had so much experience of asking them what they want and giving them exactly that, and then it's actually not it. You know?

SPEAKER_00 29:49

So you develop like more of an intuition.

SPEAKER_01 29:51

Yeah. You because then you also you have the data, right? I cannot tell you how many people are like, oh my gosh, Les, I love your solo episodes so much. Your solo episodes are the best. Okay, but when I look at the data, the interviews have higher metrics every single time and are shared more and are listened to more every single time. No, it doesn't mean that I don't ever do a solo episode. I can, but I'm not gonna do that every week because y'all say you love it, but you actually don't listen to it. Yeah. So more so looking at what do people actually do versus what do they say.

SPEAKER_04 30:21

Interesting. So, how do you know that that's just not that they're, I mean, you actually may genuinely have a subset of listeners that do prefer to just hear you. Yeah, but that overall, and maybe that's like the allowed minority that you hear from. Um, but then like overall, that's not the case for for everybody.

SPEAKER_01 30:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 30:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:44

So it's like we do both. Like for me, I'll usually will start every month off with a solo episode and then I'll do interviews for the rest of the month. And that's like a good balance to me. It's also really hard to sit and talk to yourself for an hour long episode, like no co-host, no guest to just sit you and a camera and a mic and make sense for an hour. Like people don't understand how hard that is.

SPEAKER_00 31:06

No, that's it's definitely hard. That's why the colour and I have a codependent relationship.

SPEAKER_02 31:10

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:11

Because it's like it's way easier to just be like, well, I feel like it's like psychologically. I actually thought about this uh the other day. I was like, okay, we've been super consistent actually for like I feel like a lot of podcasters start and then they like do a seasonal thing or they they have a take a pause. And I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with that, but we both came in like, no, we're not, we're not stopping.

SPEAKER_01 31:31

Yeah. And that's what you have to do if you want it to be big. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:34

I I think so. And but it's like, you know, it's one thing to commit to that in principle, and it's another thing to like, an execution standpoint, psychologically, no matter all, like no matter what ups and downs of life happen, like to be able to be consistent is kind of crazy, right? I'm like, okay, what is it actually about this that like works? You know what I mean? And I think a part of it is, well, one, we have success individually as creative people that make stuff. And so this isn't like new work for us. Like it's not so much of a learning curve. But then there's like the mutual accountability of like, I'm coming here. You're gonna be here? Okay, yeah, bet. And it's like this like sports. You're gonna be on time? Well, you know, like I think both of us have times where we're not on time. But I think there's like a grace and patience with that, just kind of knowing, like, bro, we're we're gonna we're gonna be a A-level committed to this. And like I know you're coming with level A-level commitment. So it's like, dang, I better come with that commitment. And then it's just like we we kind of keep that going, and no matter what else is happening, um, it's interesting, but I think it's it's much harder, I can imagine, to try to do what we're doing just by yourself.

SPEAKER_01 32:37

Yeah, it is. Yeah, people don't know that. That's why it's even like I take feedback from people who've never created something with the biggest grain of salt.

SPEAKER_02 32:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:47

Because if you only come from a perspective of having only ever been a consumer, again, you may know what you like to consume, but you don't understand what goes into it.

SPEAKER_04 32:57

So do you how do you I'm assuming that sometimes this may not be a good assumption, that sometimes you do get good feedback though, from like your audience, maybe some who doesn't create but listens to you religiously.

SPEAKER_01 33:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:12

Uh like how do you in your mind filter out or actually this is great advice. This is great feedback. Or I feel I understand that they may feel that way, but I'm not sure that that you know is something that I'm going to address or like change. Like, how do you assess?

SPEAKER_01 33:32

I think it depends on if I get the feedback repeatedly, then I'm like, okay, there's something here. If it's coming from multiple sources, there's something here. But then I also feel like it's up to me to be like, okay, how do I deliver on this in a way that makes sense to me? So an example that I have is for my podcast in my YouTube videos. I for a very long time wasn't doing like intros when I would have guests. I would just jump right into the episode and I'd think, we we're writing all about who these people are in the description. So people will read the description to learn who this is. People don't read the description. And I was getting a lot of comments being like, Les, can you introduce us to these people? I don't know who they are. Why should I listen? I'm like, you should listen because I'm telling you, but that's not a good enough reason. But I also knew that for me, being in studio with guests, introducing people when I'm sitting right next to them is like, I can't do it. I don't know what it is. It feels so weird. I mess it up every time. So that's why I would avoid it. So then I'm like, okay, what can I do instead? I started creating these intros where I was recording voiceovers from home with like B-roll of the guest combined with clips from our conversation, and people like love it and they do feel like the guest is introduced, but I'm not sitting there in studio looking stupid because I like mess up their name or something. Um, and so I'm like, okay, this is good feedback, and I'm gonna apply it in a way that works for me.

SPEAKER_04 34:55

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. That is good. I don't think we had I hadn't thought about that, but that's yeah, we're an interesting way to do. It's like a better way.

SPEAKER_01 35:04

Yeah. People really like it. Yeah. It's like very eye-catching. We've gotten really good feedback once we start implementing it.

SPEAKER_00 35:10

Yeah, and I think that like hits on that chord about that first few seconds being so important. You know, when somebody clicks on the video. Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 35:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:18

So interesting. Yeah, you you OG in this game at this point.

SPEAKER_01 35:21

I've been doing it since 2018. That's a long time.

SPEAKER_00 35:24

You've been doing this pre-pandemic, and you had just got into doing videos not too long ago.

SPEAKER_01 35:29

Yeah, I started videos in 2023. So it'll be almost three years. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:35

And do you feel like that was a a turning point for you also?

SPEAKER_01 35:39

Yeah, but I resisted it. I hated video because I started a podcast because I didn't want to be on video. That was why I still because I just felt like it was too much work. It was like I lived in Seattle, it was dark and rainy. I didn't have good lighting. I didn't want to operate cameras. Back then podcasts were audio only. So I could like record it in my closet and do that. But when it became very clear that that's where the space was moving in, I'm like, okay, I have to get over myself and I have to like adopt this. And I still resisted it and put out really shitty videos for like a good year and a half, two years. And then finally, like a few months ago, I was like, okay, I need to actually get better. But there's so much to think about with video that you just never had to think about before. And it it's twice as much work than just audio.

SPEAKER_04 36:26

Yeah. I guess for us, because it was something that we always knew that we had to have, it doesn't feel we we we don't even have anything to compare it to.

SPEAKER_01 36:35

Yeah. I do think it's different for guys too, because you don't have to worry about how much how you look as much. Like the now being on camera all the time, the amount that I think about how I look is fucking disgusting. Like I actually Well, you look great in everything I've ever seen. Thank you. But it's because I have to. Like it's a part of the job. It's just as much a part of the episode as like prepping to have the conversation. It's so much work.

SPEAKER_00 37:02

Why does that feel like a prerequisite for you versus maybe what your perception is for men?

SPEAKER_01 37:06

Because as women, our looks just matter more.

SPEAKER_00 37:10

Like as a form of authority for both women and men?

SPEAKER_01 37:13

Yeah, to be taken seriously, to have people listen to what you're saying. The better I look, the better the content performs across the board.

SPEAKER_00 37:20

Like direct correlation. Yeah. Right. If you like showed up in like sweatpants and like hair in a bun, you feel like people wouldn't take you as seriously. Correct. Do you feel like you could ever get to a point where that would be the thing that ruffled the feathers? I mean, it doesn't sound like that's what you want to do necessarily, but I don't know. You know what I mean? Like, I feel like I don't know any women that that do podcasting content that are like super buttoned down and you know, like approach like like they all are kind of like, but it almost kind of homogenizes how women look on on a lot of shows because it's like everyone kind of has the boss babe aesthetic of like super polished, super put together, maybe maybe not professionally dressed, but still dressed nice, you know what I mean? Like, what if there was like one person that decided to ruffle the feathers and just like you know, thug it out? I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 38:05

I don't know, but I I don't think it's any different than like corporate, you know? I think it's the same, same in any industry.

SPEAKER_00 38:12

Which I think has changed dramatically, to be fair.

SPEAKER_01 38:14

Like, like the the prerequisite for dress codes in corporate, I think it's definitely more casual, but like there's still a level of like put togetherness. I think as a woman, you have to have that for men it's a little more flexible.

SPEAKER_04 38:27

What oh interesting. So do you definitely don't disagree with that? Um I don't do a lot. I mean, I guess I put clothes on. Um actually that's not true, and I shave my head.

SPEAKER_00 38:41

Yeah, we do some stuff, yeah. I try to make sure my you know stuff is not like scraggly, but sometimes it has been.

SPEAKER_04 38:48

Yeah, but definitely not the same. Like it's just like in general, yeah, it's not the same at all whatsoever.

SPEAKER_00 38:54

No, yeah. I I don't think that we feel that pressure to look good. Yeah. Like I feel like we try to be put together, but like not that hard. Yeah, I do feel like, especially as we've just gotten better at the craft of saying things that are interesting and saying things that people listen to. It's it's kind of like, yeah, that that kind of for us. Yeah. And I do think that that is some male privilege. Yeah, it's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 39:21

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 39:22

Hmm.

SPEAKER_01 39:22

I know. That's why you were trying to get me here at three o'clock after that flight. And I was like, no, I can't, I won't make it. Gotta get it together. I gotta like get dressed and do things.

SPEAKER_00 39:32

Nah, that makes sense. Yeah. That makes sense. I respect it. Yeah. Yeah. It makes me wonder though, if that's like a missed opportunity for us. I mean, we're talking to someone about getting some merch and stuff. And so if you're listening to right now, like, you know, we may have some dope merch coming out, maybe by, you know, a couple months after this episode drops. Um, but we we're talking to people about how we we also might be able to grow more if we started maybe focusing more on the aesthetic.

SPEAKER_01 39:59

And I gotta get back to posting thirst traps. You like donut anymore? I mean, you do.

SPEAKER_00 40:04

Yeah, I gotta get back to it.

SPEAKER_04 40:05

What thirst traps do I do I post?

SPEAKER_01 40:08

You post a lot of thirst traps.

SPEAKER_04 40:10

You think so? Mm-hmm. Yeah. So it it is um thank you for the compliment, by the way. I think that says a lot. Uh but I remember I some people have I've heard that before. You know, mud has been slang towards my name for that sort of thing. But it'll be like it'll be like me in the gym, but like fully closed with a with a hoodie. Like I'm not in there with the little nipple t-shirts out or anything, like tassels or anything. I'm just in. I always wondered, like, is it really like a thirst trap? Or you know, or you know, is one just wildly attracted to the person? Yeah, I guess could it could be both, man.

SPEAKER_00 40:59

But yeah, I guess yeah, I I have like not done that as much. Yeah, you do do less thirst traps. Yeah, because I yeah, yeah. I I feel like yeah, I feel like I changed, but I I I don't feel like I'm different. He's different now, y'all. Y'all heard No, literally, like, bro, I don't know if I ever told you the story. This is this is gonna sound ignorant and immature, but when I was like 21, um, I did this talk at University of Maryland or something like that, and it was me and a bunch of like grad students in research. And they were we were talking to a bunch of undergrad science students, and I had just read this data point offhand that it was like 90% of science undergrads don't go to graduate school for research. And so, and it was three researchers and me. And so, uh, and I was like just starting my career as a science communicator, and so I'm like, okay, so raise your hand if you want to be a researcher, and like nobody's hand went up, like one person's hand went up. I said, raise your hand if you don't want to do science research for grad school. Everybody's hand went up, and I was like, Yeah, so you know, of everybody on this panel, you all should probably be listening to me. And it was like super inflammatory, and everyone was like, Oh, and they're like, What do you want to be? And I was like, I want to be a science sex symbol. And I like said it with a super straight face, and then everybody laughed hysterically. It was like it was like 30 seconds of laughter.

SPEAKER_04 42:14

Wait, what's a science sex symbol?

SPEAKER_00 42:15

I think it's it's kind of like what you've leaned into, I feel like.

SPEAKER_04 42:19

I what does it what does that mean though?

SPEAKER_00 42:21

Um, I think it means so this is based on some stuff I was reading at the time. I had a mentor that was like, Oh, you were getting deep into the stuff.

SPEAKER_01 42:28

Yeah, what did you mean when you said it in that moment?

SPEAKER_00 42:31

The the content that I like to make, especially at that time, is I still, I mean, still on the show, it's very cerebral stuff, high concept. A smaller percentage of the population is actually gonna just be interested in the content intrinsically for content's sake. And so by creating an aesthetic, you cast a wider net to rope people in and intrigue them so that you can then give them the knowledge that you actually want to give them. Because if you're just like talking about smart stuff in an echo chamber, you're not ruffling feathers, you're not reaching the people you want to reach.

SPEAKER_04 43:02

But if you're hot while you do it, then you're ruffling feathers.

SPEAKER_00 43:06

Um well, you're casting a wide net, and maybe there are some. I think traditional academics can be like, oh, who do these guys think they are? Yeah, you know, why do they think they need to look like this to do it? These guys are just models, they don't know anything about science. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know, people be models, bro.

SPEAKER_04 43:22

You know, that's one of the models, that was one of the worst hate comments we get. They're like, these guys, they're just these guys are fucking supermodels. I hate it, man. It's like, can I just not be massively intelligent and ultra hot? Like I'm not just a super be anything you want to be, right?

SPEAKER_01 43:41

But I think it's a good idea.

SPEAKER_00 43:41

Yeah, I mean I guess I could, I guess I could start doing it again. I just I don't know. I just feel like I haven't had the same motivation to do it. I don't know. Like I it feels like that was like an earlier part of my journey, and then I like chilled out more.

unknown 43:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:54

I don't know. Maybe I could do it more. I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 43:56

I don't know, man. I I guess I don't see things that. Way.

SPEAKER_00 44:00

What do we well remember that one picture that you put in the group chat where like I was doing the oh yeah, you were like, Yeah, that was a weird shoot.

SPEAKER_04 44:10

He was doing a photo shoot for PBS or something, and he had like he had like low rider jeans on and no shirt.

SPEAKER_00 44:15

Wait, no, with the I was like, Oh, this is a kid show. I think we're talking about something different, man. I first of all, no, that definitely didn't happen. Um, that was like a futuristic, like yes, kids, man. It was like a futuristic, like a it was like a sci-fi shoot, like a futuristic, and I was like a blue alien, but like I was working out and you know interesting, yeah. So I don't know, I could do more. I could do more of that. Yeah, so yeah, maybe there's there's there's opportunity for growth there, or just like re like re-sparking that.

SPEAKER_01 44:44

If you feel called.

SPEAKER_04 44:45

Yeah. Um, so you know, the premise of our show is curiosity, right? Curiosity theory.

SPEAKER_01 44:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 44:55

And um, you know, my my take is that everybody is deeply curious about something.

SPEAKER_01 45:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 45:03

Uh even if you don't, even if you don't know that, right? Like even if that's not something that you're aware of. And I'm curious about what you're deeply curious about and how that like funds your trajectory as a creator, uh, as a professional. I think we I think we missed the uh the angle of the sun bouncing off the thing. Yeah, and I initial. I no, because I kept checking, I didn't see it. Can you tell me why? Can anybody tell me why? If we were here a couple months ago, the sun hit at a certain angle that fucked up the light in here, but now same place, same location downtown, the sun doesn't hit at that same angle.

SPEAKER_00 45:45

It's because of where we are relative to uh uh to the orbit of the sun. Yeah, like where Earth's orbit is relative to the sun.

SPEAKER_04 45:52

Yeah, yeah. That's just the sun is not at the same location in the spine. Because the earth is going around the sun.

SPEAKER_00 45:57

So the issue we had a couple months ago, we're not gonna have now.

SPEAKER_04 46:01

Bro, people be thinking my astronomy bag ain't deep, bro. To me, that's a thirst track. I would say so too. I like you more now. I'm more attracted to you because of that. Not because of the little curly hair or the the taper, no, like the Rolex you got flashing in my face. It's because you can answer that question.

SPEAKER_00 46:20

That shit is hot. Oh my god. Thank you, thank you, bro. Yeah, man. Appreciate it, man.

SPEAKER_01 46:25

Um, I feel like I just witnessed such an intimate moment.

SPEAKER_00 46:28

Hey, we have a lot of those. You guys should stay tuned. Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, I mean, people say we flirt a lot. Yeah, people are always accusing us of flirting, and we never really beat the allegations.

SPEAKER_04 46:39

Yeah, yeah. Maybe you have not beat those allegations, but to the question though, yes, curiosity, how that like funds you and how you think about things, like what you're deeply passionate about, what you're curious in, how that bleeds over in the podcast or doesn't?

SPEAKER_01 46:55

I mean something that I get deeply curious about for myself is just like how far can I go? Like, how far can I push myself? How far can I push my limit? Can I push to the point where there is no limit? Like, how what will it take to truly be great? And how can I keep pushing further and further into that? Is like what I'm most curious about for myself.

SPEAKER_04 47:23

What is greatness to you?

SPEAKER_01 47:26

I think it's a feeling. I think like you it's like you reach a point where you like feel like you're living up to your fullest potential.

SPEAKER_00 47:35

Sounds elusive though. It sounds like you feel it for a little bit and then you stop feeling it.

SPEAKER_01 47:40

Maybe I think that there's not really any one like achievement that does it, you know? It's not like, oh, making this amount of money or do it's it's this feeling of like self-actualization where it's like I'm truly living up to my potential. You know?

SPEAKER_04 47:58

Have you always had that?

SPEAKER_01 48:00

I think my adult life, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:03

Or like a desire or pursuit of that, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:06

Yeah you know, Liz, I really do see that. I do see that. Like I've known you for a few years now. I feel like based on a lot of the stuff you put out and the conversations we've had over the years, I really see that as a driving force for you. And it feels like really genuine. Like, I don't know. There's a lot of people, I mean, you know, you've lived in LA for a while. There's a lot of people that have, I think, other motivations that are disguised as something like that, but it really does feel like that's that's your MO. That's that's dope.

SPEAKER_01 48:35

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 48:35

Super dope.

SPEAKER_01 48:36

I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_04 48:38

Yeah, do so it's it's a vague it it's like this, it's an idea of potential that you want to fulfill.

SPEAKER_02 48:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 48:50

And when you when you hit that, I don't know, like what it what else is that attached to? Like, what do you mean? How did you know you that you are like fulfilling your potential? Is it is it measured in like downloads? Is it measured in like lives helped? Is it measured in like you know, ideologies built?

SPEAKER_01 49:11

I think for me, a lot of it comes from like how many like myths can I bust, you know? Like I don't come from a lot. My parents had me very young. I think if someone were to look at like the origins of how I started out, the community that I grew up in, I shouldn't have even made it this far. But it's like my willingness to just push myself and to see how far I could go got me this far. So if people have an idea of what your potential is, being from a certain place and of a certain standing and all of that, like I just want to completely blow out of the water what people think is possible. And even what I thought was once possible.

SPEAKER_04 49:55

What is something, where is a place that you're at now that at once did feel like it was outside of what you would be able to achieve, if that if that is even the case.

SPEAKER_01 50:07

I think a lot of what I'm doing, even just being like a self-employed entrepreneur living in New York who can like pay my rent every month. There's probably a time when I didn't think that was possible. Yeah. Um, especially having been a corporate girl for as long as I was and thinking that that was like the end all be all. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 50:28

Yeah. That's dope. There's uh yeah, there's something about having a goal for yourself that it doesn't that doesn't feel achievable, and you do it, and then you're like, oh wait, I maybe I can do anything. This is what I it sounds like what you're saying. It's kind of like, oh wait, I could do this, maybe I could do this as well. And then you do that, and you're like, wait a second, is there a thing that I can't do?

SPEAKER_01 50:57

No, there's not. And I mean, I remember like in my early 20s, I used to journal a lot about what I wanted my dream day to look like and all of the ways that I wanted to spend my time and all the things that I wanted to do. And now I'm like, that is a regular ass Tuesday. Like what I once aspired to have is so regular to me now. And I actually think that's a good thing, you know? And I mean, I can have a sense of gratitude about where I'm at and all the things, not to say that the goalpost needs to always move, but I think it's really cool that something that once seemed so out of reach is completely normal to me now, like bare minimum.

SPEAKER_04 51:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:34

Yeah, that's dope. Yeah, but it does imply, again, the elusive nature of this pursuit and how I mean, for better or worse, it could become lifelong. You know, I think in some ways that could be a good thing. Like Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:47

I mean, what else am I doing? That's only a good thing, you know? Oh, right? Why not?

SPEAKER_04 51:50

Like is it like implied? So what it's not for so from your question is kind of like well, that it it never ends, right? Like you never get there, right? But I don't even think that that's real of like thinking that you that you like reach a a goal and then you're you're completely content and satisfied. That's almost anti-human to me, right? It's like if we didn't have the constant drive uh drive within us to become better, then like society would stall, right? We would still be using sticks and stones to hunt jack rabbits, or you know what I mean? Like whatever they were doing. But it's like you you you got I I feel like the drive that that drive is human nature.

SPEAKER_00 52:38

Yeah, I know I I don't disagree with that. It just like the term self-actualization has an implication that one actualizes or arrives at a destination. Yeah, but what it seems like we're arriving at together is this description of self-actualization being the act of pursuit, yeah, the act of perpetual pursuit.

SPEAKER_02 52:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:59

And you know, I mean, when you look back on the legacy of, you know, people that are considered great, you know, some of us may admire some of the greats of the past or not. Do you it's it's like you kind of wonder like a lot of times we admire them for a specific peak moment or time period in their life, right? And at that point were they self-actualize and later were they not? Or you know what I mean? Like, where does that occur on that journey?

unknown 53:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:24

It's interesting. I wrote about something on Substack maybe like a month ago. Um, I talked about this like theory that I have called the post-peak pivot. And it's something that I identified particularly in really successful women, because I have observed that, like from a societal standpoint, we only let women be super visibly out loud, successful, and shine really bright for a certain amount of time before it's like people either get very sick of them, we want to cancel, we wanna, it's like we only get comfortable with women shining super bright for so long.

SPEAKER_04 53:59

Briefly, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:00

That of the women who have been able to sustain success, it's because they master what's called the post-peak pivot. So it's like they reach this certain peak and they know how to pivot to the next thing that may be a little bit less visible or visible in a different way to continue sustaining their success. And I think for a lot of people, they only think about reaching this one peak, but they don't think about what happens after that. Like the peak is the goal. For me, I think about what my peak could look like as a content creator, as a podcaster, having my podcast be incredibly successful, reaching a certain number, whatever. That's actually not my goal. My goal is like what I would want to do after that, because I would want to then turn that into like the next phase of my career where I'm not as visible all the time and in people's faces all the time. And that is like my actual goal versus this high visibility peak. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_04 54:56

It does make sense. What is, or can you share that?

SPEAKER_01 54:59

What your post-peak pivot. My post-peak pivot?

SPEAKER_04 55:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:03

Yeah. Well, a lot of it's around investing. So I've been talking a lot about angel investing this year.

SPEAKER_04 55:08

I noticed that. You did your, you made your first angel investment.

SPEAKER_01 55:10

I made my first angel investment last week. Congrats. Which I'm very excited about and hoping to do more. Um, so I'm hoping that like a few years from now, some of those investments actually come to fruition. Um, I really want to be an author. I really want to write fiction. I want to have the fiction books that I write get turned into like TV shows and movies and like be in more of a producer space, like behind the camera.

SPEAKER_00 55:31

We talked about that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:33

Um, but it's like the things that I'm doing now are actually just a means to get to that point. It's not because I want to be in people's faces with a podcast forever. I want to know when to end the podcast to like go do other things.

SPEAKER_04 55:43

Yeah. What type of fiction do you like? What's a story in your head that you hope to write about or that you're like interested in exploring or would like to share with people?

SPEAKER_01 55:57

Yeah. I mean, I would say my genres, my top genres are historical fiction and then romance. I also love a combination of the two. So those are the types of things that I want to write.

SPEAKER_04 56:06

Ooh, who who are some of your favorite historical figures?

SPEAKER_01 56:09

My favorite historical, ooh, that's a really good question. My favorite historical figures. I mean, I definitely love like the Harlem Renaissance figures. When I think about like a Zora Neil Hurston, a Langston Hughes, like that tends to be my go-to. I just feel like, particularly for black people, so much of history involved being enslaved, and I try not to like lean into that as much. So really like the Harlem Renaissance figures are my favorites.

SPEAKER_00 56:43

I actually had a question for you about that post-peak pivot. I think that's a really interesting alliteration too. Um, what women do you feel like have exemplified that the best?

SPEAKER_01 56:53

Yeah. In the Substack article that I wrote about it, I had some examples. A really good example, I think, is a Reese Witherspoon. Okay. Um, because she obviously had a very successful acting career. She had some like pretty iconic movies. She had won the Oscar for Best Actress back in like 2005 or 2006. And when her acting roles dried up, she pivoted to Create Hello Sunshine, which is this incredibly successful production company where she takes books, um, buys the rights to them, and turns them into TV shows and movies with female leads. And it's turned into like a billion-dollar company. So, no, she's not necessarily like front and center as an actress anymore, but she's doing a lot of like really cool things outside of that. I think Rihanna is another good example of the post-peak pivot. Like, people have been begging that lady for an album for the past 10 years, but like she put out her best album and now she's doing other things. And I would argue these other things, creating a family, her different businesses have been far more lucrative and probably fulfilling than music was. Like she knew when to go out on top.

SPEAKER_04 57:57

Yeah, that's a good point. Do you so do do you think because you frame this specifically for women who reach these high levels? Do you think that it's different for men or that it's not the same, or like there isn't, there isn't like that same pressure to switch into something else?

SPEAKER_01 58:15

I don't think I think men tend to be allowed to be visibly successful for longer. I think usually if a man gets canceled, it's because he genuinely like did something terrible versus like women get canceled.

SPEAKER_03 58:28

Sometimes, sometimes men get canceled.

SPEAKER_01 58:29

And sometimes they don't, right? But generally it's like they get canceled for like doing something terrible.

unknown 58:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:34

But if not, like they can just be like famous and successful visibly forever.

SPEAKER_03 58:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:41

Versus like for women, sometimes get canceled just for like being too visible for too long, and people just get sick of you.

SPEAKER_00 58:46

Yeah. What is that phenomenon though, like psychologically? Is it because I guess misogyny? Okay, is that what you would refer to? I think so.

SPEAKER_01 58:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:54

That's so, but is it is it but it's mis. It sounds like it's like misogyny from all genders.

SPEAKER_01 59:00

Yes, absolutely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:02

Interesting. Because it's kind of like everybody's sick of you being on top. Women are sick of you being on top. Why do women get sick of other women being on top for a long time?

SPEAKER_01 59:11

Internalized misogyny. It's the same thing.

SPEAKER_00 59:14

Like, I guess, like, what does that mean in this context, you know?

SPEAKER_01 59:18

So I would say also in that article, I gave some examples of people who I think need to like simmer down and master a post-peak pivot. Somebody who I think has not done this very well would be like a Taylor Swift. Um Taylor Swift.

SPEAKER_04 59:32

You said she needs to simmer down.

SPEAKER_01 59:34

She does. She needs to figure out her post-peak pivot because she does. And this is like no, I you probably don't have a lot of Swifties listening, but probably not looking at her trajectory. Swifties. But looking at her trajectory over the past few years, she had this like amazing tour a couple years ago, highest grossing tour of all time. That is an incredible peak. And she has tried too hard to keep that peak going. She's like releasing these weird albums that even her own fans aren't liking. She has like public relationship after public relationship. Like after that tour, she needed to go away for a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:06

And then maybe a couple years after that, come out with something new. But she just is like overdoing it to the point where now even her own fan base is kind of turning on her because she's just doing too much.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:18

Yeah. She's like oversaturated. Way oversaturated. Interesting. Cause that almost sounds to me like what we talked about earlier about like maybe ruffling feathers and going against the tide of like what people would expect you to do. But it sounds like but maybe it's also like reading the room.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:33

Yeah. I think it's more so reading the room.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:37

What about Beyonce? I feel like she's always getting into she's always like putting out new stuff.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:42

And her pivots seem to be because Beyonce will put something out, go on tour, and then she'll be quiet for like two years. And then she'll do it again. You know, she has a pretty predictable cycle.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:52

You don't hear from Beyonce but there's no album's not out.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:55

Agree, agree. But there's no like, there's no like grand pivot.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:01

I think from a genre perspective, we've seen that from her.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:04

Definitely.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:04

Like Renaissance to Cowboy Carter, like the way she's genre bending and had very different concepts.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:09

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Definitely. Definitely.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:12

Huh. She's not, you know, still putting out the same music she was doing 20 years ago. That would get stale.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:18

Are you a stan?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:22

I mean, I've been known to participate in some hive activities. I dabble. I dabble in the hive.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:28

Okay, I respect that.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:29

Standom kind of scares me, but I do love Beyonce.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:32

You don't strike me as the type of person that's ever been like a rabid fan or of a celebrity.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:40

No. I mean, am I gonna go like threaten people for insulting Beyoncé? Like, no, I think she's good. I don't think she needs me to like stick up for her, you know.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:50

Do you um but that but that's like a normal thing? Like, people love celebrities. Uh what why would what do you feel like is different? I don't know. Do you I wonder this about myself? Is it do you do you like value your own thoughts more or like your own? I think so.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:06

But I think when people I I just want to like enjoy the art because I feel like when you dive too deep into getting obsessed with people or knowing too much about them, it kind of ruins it. You know what I mean? Yeah, like I want to enjoy the art and then move on.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:19

Yeah. Personally, yeah, I feel that. Yeah. Do you do you have any stands?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:27

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:28

Right here. Really?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:30

I don't know. Maybe.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:33

Have you you haven't like because you what you said about stands being like weird or like having a weird reaction to them? Does it have anything to do with you didn't say she didn't say stands were weird? Well, yeah, I but yeah, I don't want to mis misconstrue.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:47

Well, I mean, I have had people like come up to me like crying, and that makes me a little uncomfortable. Really? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:53

That you're that impactful.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:55

I've had girls like come up to me like crying.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:57

Well, why does that make you uncomfortable though?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:59

Because I just like don't know what to do. And it's often when I'm just kind of going about my day, and then someone comes up to you crying, it's like, oh, uh, hi. You know, like what do I do with this? It's, you know, it's a little jarring.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:13

Yeah. Yeah, that's like that's a that's a tough thing to get. I guess it's kind of like a skill, but it's like a weird, because like how do you ever get good at like having your energy disrupted when someone, you know, has built a parasocial relationship with you over years and like has this huge built-up emotion, and then they come to you with all like dumping all that on you. You don't know who they are. Yeah, like how does one get good at that? And then I feel like a lot of times those are the type of people that if you mishandle it from their perspective, they walk away with this horribly sour taste in effect.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:45

Like, oh yeah, I met her one time, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:47

That's tough.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:48

Yeah, it is. I don't know. I just listen and try to be nice, but it's jarring. It's like, I don't know what to do.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:56

But you're but this is a sign that you're having a deep impact on people.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:01

I guess so.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:02

Which feels based on what you said to me a part of what your potential as a person is supposed to be, like what your your the purpose that you have is like being impactful with people in this way.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:15

I mean, I hope so. And we were kind of talking about this before we started recording, where I was saying how I don't see myself as an influencer. Um, because it's like I want to, if someone's a part of my community, I don't want to just influence them to buy things. I hope that like I can influence them to make improvements to their life. So I do definitely understand if somebody does feel very connected to the things that I share or maybe has an emotional reaction, taking a step back, I'm like, okay, I can see why that is, because I'm not just out here like selling, you know, link, flipping links all day. More so is like how to improve your life. Yeah. But in the moment, it is a little jarring when you're like walking downstairs.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:55

Totally makes sense. Yeah. Definitely makes sense. Do you have people come up to you ever? I feel like I meet people that know you.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:02

Yeah, that happens to me a lot. Um, I would say because yeah, like LinkedIn is kind of where I'm like more known, I guess. So I'm LinkedIn influencer, right? LinkedIn influencer. Um, but I think like in a lot of professional settings, that's what people kind of are most familiar with a lot of the work I do. And if I've been posting stuff on there for like eight, nine years. So it's like a kind of another one of those things where people have like gotten a lot of advice that I forgot I said, and they're like, when you said that thing, I was like, oh yeah.

unknown 1:05:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:31

But don't even remember at all what I said.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:33

Or I don't remember anything I say.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:36

Like it's funny because we we now have such a production schedule where we're like months ahead with a lot of our episodes. And so some of our episodes come out once a week, like on a on like the next day, and then some of them come out like months later.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:49

And then people are like, Man, that thing you said today was crazy, bro. Like, and I was like, What? I I I never know what they're talking about. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:57

Like when we watch, I'll go back through and like. Edit before posting. This is like brand new. Forget the conversation.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:03

I'm like, damn, like this is even like they was new. Like black out. I feel like I kind of black out a little bit when I'm recording, especially if it's a solo episode. Because I'll remember like what a guest says or what another person says, but I don't know what I'd be I'd just be talking.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:19

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that's what makes the best episode, though, is because you get it like a tunnel vision. You're like locked in on what a person is saying. You're also thinking about dynamic contributions you can make. And yeah, I feel like that's kind of the art. Like I remember one of the conversations. So I actually want to say this like on the show to crystallize this. So, Les, you were one of the most influential people in us like coming together and starting this. Um, so we were having a conversation in Brooklyn before Curiosity Theory was a thing. I think you and I were kind of like, ah, we should do something. Maybe it should be a podcast. I don't know. Like, let's let's give it like a couple weeks and think on it. And I think in between that time, I like sat down with Les and I told Dakota I was like gonna sit down with you. You've been killing it in the podcast game for a long time. And um, you know, I like one of the things that there are a few things that you said that stuck out with me. But one of the things that um I really remember you saying was uh that you know there aren't a lot of like podcasts by men that you're inspired to listen to. Like, and um you just yeah, it was I was like, because I think I was asking you like what what other examples should we even look to as we're kind of building this out? And he was like, uh nothing, like I don't really have anything that comes to mind immediately. I was like, dang, that's crazy. Um, but I feel like it was also kind of the you know, the vote of confidence of just like you, yeah, like you kind of just were like, yeah, like this is something that you should probably look like think about doing for real.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:45

And um, again, I think I'm another one of those people that um I think you're like this too. It's like if you haven't walked a walk, it's kind of hard for me to hear what you're saying and and like take it, you know, and like internalize it. But it's like when you've walked the walk and you've like seen the work I've done over the years and you know, kind of vaguely I think knew about the code at the time. I'm like, y'all should do this. I'm like, okay. You know, and I feel like that was like a that was like around the time when we crystallize things, turn it into curiosity theory a few weeks later. And it's like you like hit the ground running. Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, yeah. So I feel like we're both like this. It's like if we're gonna do something, we're gonna really do it. That's why we didn't, we didn't want to rush it. Like, I do remember a lot of those early conversations because we were like, we just have good chemistry, you know, in a lot of different ways. And uh we were like, we gotta do something together, you know? Um, and we weren't sure if it was gonna be a podcast, but we were like the podcast thing like really had us like cooking. Like we were talking about it for hours, and then we were like, okay, let's not rush it though. Cause I think like from the wisdom of having rushed things and it didn't work, I'm like, I know I want to like make sure that I want to do this because I'm gonna be all in. And yeah, we've we've been all in since.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:51

Proud of you guys.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:52

Yeah, thanks.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:53

Look at you now. I always knew I tried to start a podcast in grad school.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:58

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:59

Uh, and I kept it up for like a month, but I it was too much to like film everything. You have all the like AV uh audio video production skills that like keeps all this running at a high level. And I didn't have that.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:14

I have like the science expertise, but it was not something in the content, like the short form expertise.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:19

Yeah, yeah, and like the content angle as well. Um, but it was like not possible for me to do on my own with a grad student schedule, yeah, which is like insanely overworked and like underpaid.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:34

Uh, which is one thing, one of the things that sucks about grad school. So it was like not possible for me to do. But then, yeah, you and I came together and we worked on stuff before.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:45

So we already knew.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:45

So I kind of knew, yeah, that I could like count on you, which is like I don't like the idea of counting on another person to for like a thing that's really important. Yeah, me neither. Unless they and in and I want to like know that you're like dependable, that you can do these things, that if there's something that you know we don't know how to do, we'll be able to figure out to do. It's like competency, I guess. I felt like it's hard to find high levels of competency.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:13

Yeah, for I think, yeah, I think we both felt that way for a long time. Yeah, but then when we met each other years ago, sparks were flying in.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:20

How did you guys meet?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:22

Uh through a mutual friend, through Moya. Moya. She's also an astrophysicist. Actually, she lives in New York. We're gonna have her on the show soon. Um and yeah, like I was I was throwing an event out here with a few other peak science people, like kind of science media event. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was that party.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:36

Slack on party.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:37

Yeah, it's like a science communicator party in LA.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:39

Nerd party. Yeah, nerd party.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:41

Yeah, and Dakota pulled up. I'm like, this is a dude from the Midwest, he's from Indiana.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:46

And then I feel like shortly thereafter, we ended up working on a project, like a super nerdy project together that was really, really scrappy and required a lot of technical uh you know, prowess and a lot of grit. And like, it was one of those things where I was like, bro, this is like this, we don't have to do this. This is like way too, but we were both just stay with it. Yes, yeah, and I was like, dang, I like the way that felt, you know, to just have somebody that like I said, you can depend on in terms of in terms of like work ethic and um, yeah, just like is a doer for real, you know?

SPEAKER_04 1:11:19

Yeah. Um there's this story. So we did the the the project that we did, it was called a second home. And I was like superimposed. Well, how would you say it? Oh, green screen.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:30

So it was a green screen.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:31

And there was like a virtual camera, and we you we you we worked uh with this guy. We worked with this guy who had like the equipment, right? And which was not something that we had, like this is you need very specific equipment for this. And the guy was eccentric, uh, esoteric. He was a very esoteric, uh strange, very, very strange man. To this day, one of the strangest men that I've ever known. Could be listening. And I he may be, he may be. Um, it's about time he heard this. So, you know, Justin and I we're putting in like all these hours, all this time to make this thing work. And the guy is like he's like kind of a dick. Um and he doesn't he's like doesn't like uh for anybody else to like have an idea and then go with that. Right? He kind of wants to like a control freak to an extent. He's a control freak to an extent. So, you know, but we're we're like, you know, trying to get things uh the way that we want them.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:32

And so we shoot like over the course of several days, obviously. And uh uh I think that we he like wanted the lighting to be a certain way, and we like didn't want it to be that way because I didn't we didn't think it was better, and we wanted it to be better. So we did the lighting how we wanted it, and all we would have, and he was like, he threw this out there too. He was like, Well, it's only gonna work if you have the exact same lighting each time. And we're like, Okay, we'll just have the exact same lighting, right? Like, duh. And then we go for the last day of filming. Mind you, this guy shoots also porn in his thing. Oh, it was a big thing that we didn't know about, but we found about out about later. Midway into the halfway into the how did you learn that? The person that put Justin on to meet this guy, yeah, was like, Oh, I'm so sorry, by the way. I won't say his name, but Bob shoots porn.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:27

I didn't make it to know at the beginning.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:29

No, she didn't know either, I guess. And then and then he came out and told us. Oh, bragged about it, though. Bragged it.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:37

It was like, you know, it was like, you know, say again, he would like drop, you know, when somebody's trying to impress you and they like drop the thing, and that was supposed to be impressive.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:45

He's like, I have a secret, guys. And then kind of like pregnant pause waits for us to say something. Well, what was your secret? Pregnant pause. And then uh he he reveals it to us.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:55

Yeah, and yeah, the link is on your shirt, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:57

And and then we uh we came to we came to the set one time. I'm I'm like crying because I'm laughing so hard.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:05

No, so we come in, mind you, it's like we're coming in, we come in early, we're gonna get everything everything set up. Um and then I get a text from the was it you or or Navik? He's like, there's a big there's a bed on set.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:18

Dude, unbelievable.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:20

And walked in. So it's like I said, it's a bit this is like big 3D green green uh space, and there's a big ass, like California king bed sitting in the corner. We have this on video. We have we have this. Makes it impossible to put the lighting the way that it was because there's a bed there where I was supposed to be standing. Oh, and he's like, Well, you know, there's nothing I can do about it. And he did it on purpose out of spite to force us to have a different lighting configuration so that it wouldn't work.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:48

So as I'm editing the footage, I have to crop out this huge bed in almost all the shots. And we we have video footage like behind the scenes footage of that time period when that bed was on set, and we were all like, What are we gonna do? Because I remember, but that was another one of those days where we walked in, and I feel like that those we had a lot of moments like this in Curiosity Theory. We're like, I don't know what the hell we're gonna do. I don't know how the hell we're gonna figure this out. Yeah, this is this is absolutely the craziest thing that's ever happened. So I was we did.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:16

I was like posted up in the corner trying to try to like somebody was like holding a light to try and recreate it the way it was, and I'm like in the corner reading the script. It was insane.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:28

But you know what's you know what's sad? Like most productions aren't gonna work that way anymore because people are just gonna AI the shit out of it. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:35

Yeah, I mean, we probably that project we probably could have done with AI.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:39

No, we could have done that in like a couple days with an AI prompt, but it would have been way less character building and like way less.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:45

We wouldn't have had that bonding experience, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:46

Yeah, yeah. And I feel like every like we're all still tight to this day. Well, not every not everybody, but like the people, the production people that we worked with. Yeah, a lot of us are still really cool.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:56

Yeah, it it was the pettiest thing I've ever seen in my life. And we was like, Can we move it? And he's like, No, you know, he needs to stay right there. We could have just like moved the bed, yeah, but he wouldn't, he wouldn't let us move it.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:07

Dude, I we we laugh about that for days, man. Oh my god. Insane. Insane. Good stuff.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:15

So, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:17

So Les, um, I think we're we're getting close to wrapping up here. It's been an excellent conversation. One of the questions that we always like to ask our guests is what's one question that you wish you would have asked yourself sooner?

SPEAKER_01 1:16:30

Ooh, one question that I wish I would have asked myself sooner. Probably why not? Why not? Anything I wanted to try.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:51

Do you feel like you ask yourself that a lot now?

SPEAKER_01 1:16:53

I do now, but I was such a scary cat for so long that I it's really only been the past few years that I've really leaned into that, and I wish I would have asked myself that sooner. For sure. Probably be a little further along.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:08

Yeah, maybe. Maybe. But it's like, yeah. Everything that you go through though, kind of like at the right time puts you in the position that you're in.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:19

Kinda, but I'm like, mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:21

Do you think that it's do you think that it's possible to push too hard too quickly? Sort of like a maybe. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:29

You know, I mean maybe, yeah. If you're if you're not thinking about like a progressive overload type of situation. But I think I probably could have pushed a little harder than I did sooner. Looking back on it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:42

Yeah. Well, you do got that dog in the case.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:45

I do. That's what they that's what they say.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:47

Yeah, I agree. One of my one of my favorite quotes from you, I'll paraphrase it because I don't remember exactly what you said, was that pretty much like nothing that you do, no no prep, no uh strategizing, no self-care, nothing can replace having that dog in you.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:09

Can you expand on that a little bit?

SPEAKER_01 1:18:12

Yeah. So where that video came to be was I was like scrolling on TikTok. Uh, this was like maybe right after Christmas, like that no man's land in between Christmas and New Year's, that week where time's not real. And a video from one of my mutuals came up and he was talking about just kind of like his journey to get to where he is and like all of his like challenges and setbacks and like just everything he kind of pushed through to get to where he currently is. And I related so much to that video, not because he and I had like similar experiences per se, but just the thought process was very similar. And I was thinking, like, yeah, just when you have that dog in you, that's that's how it is. And then I just opened my phone and like made that video just on a whim.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:56

Which is always anytime I just open my phone and say something random, those are always the videos that go viral. And the ones that I'm like thoughtful and never go anywhere.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:06

Yeah, that's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:07

Ever. But yeah, I was just thinking more about like experiences that I had that kind of reminded me of what he described and just an unwillingness to give up. And I was like, Yeah, you just gotta have that dog in you. Cause I get people in my DMs all day, every day about like what should I do? And what I can't do this and I can't do that. And I'm like, you just you gotta find it, find it, figure it out.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:29

Yeah. And I remember totally resonates with me too. If nothing else, that I would say is like for me personally, my top trade. Like the top thing about me is nothing else. It's just like when it comes to, it's like the friction thing. It's like when it comes to it, not gonna give up. You know, I'm not gonna, when I'm feeling down or emotionally like drained or whatever, I'm not gonna stop and and turn around and quit. Um, yeah, like you feel like you've always had that?

SPEAKER_01 1:19:58

I do, yeah, to an extent. I think when I was younger, I was a little bit more risk averse. I think I still had the quality. I just wasn't willing to take risks with it. But I've always been somebody who like would push myself or would set high goals and have very high standards for myself. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:15

I remember I remember I was in the comments of that video.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:19

And or maybe you made a follow-up and somebody was asking, like, how do you find it?

SPEAKER_01 1:20:24

How do I get the dog? If you gotta ask, then you ain't got it. I really I didn't even post a follow-up until weeks later because I was really thinking, like, because I try to be so empowering and I try to be like, you can do anything. But also if you're asking somebody, how do I have that dog in me, then you don't. You don't, and that's okay. I don't think everybody needs it. I don't think everybody like is as crazy as I am, where they're always pushing themselves. I think actually the world would be insufferable if everybody was like that. I think it's okay that some people aren't.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:55

But if you're not, then you just gotta be good with what you got.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:58

Yeah. And I think that also in asking the question, you miss what the dog even is. Right. Because it's not you, it's not that you go around and you like find the motivation. Like that's not the thing. The thing is that you just go.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:15

And when you don't know and you're confused, you're still going. Yeah. Well, and when you're tired, you're still going.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:19

What I literally said in the original video was like, there's no TikTok video, no YouTube video, no piece of self-help that can replace having that dog in you. Yeah. So then you then ask me to create a follow-up video to tell you how to have it.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:33

Maybe is it like a Spotify one?

SPEAKER_01 1:21:36

It's not clocking. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:38

Share any resources.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:39

I just am like, I don't know what to tell you. Work out. I don't know. Maybe that's how you can build it. Like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:46

Yeah. But uh, you know, just to to like rep put a bow on on that deep down belief of mine is that absolutely like the great neutralizer in life. It's a very, I do think that this comes off as a very bootstraps mentality. But like, yes, if you really work really hard, if you don't stop and don't give up, that can cover up a lot of blemishes. Uh hardcore belief of mine, I feel like it's played out in my life as well. People that I know are smarter than me, uh, had more privilege, started in a better position. I have been able to like, you know, pass up in a sense or get closer to to my goals simply because I'm not letting anything stop me. Right. And there's a lot to be said for that.

unknown 1:22:37

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:38

I think about that all the time. And this is maybe toxic. I don't know. But I'll be like in the gym and I'll be thinking about like competitors or just like other creators that I haven't had a good experience with, and maybe I'll be wanting to work on it. No, I am I in my mind, I'll be like, these bitches aren't better than me. Like I'm up doing this shit right now. Like I'm they're not fucking better than me. And I'm proving it right now. Like that's what I'm thinking about.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:03

And you you you are pumping me up right now. That's like the Michael Jordan thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:08

Yeah, it is. Yeah, maybe I'm doing it during a bar class, but whatever. Yeah, I don't care. It's like what keeps me in it, and there's so much power there.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:18

There's something about working out, about like the physical expression of energy that it like bleeds into to your attitude, to your mindset in other areas. And yeah, it's like the I'm totally resonate. I'll be in the gym thinking the same. This is why I like working out with people. I'll be I'll be like locked in and I'm thinking the same thing. Yeah, yeah. Oh, you're like so-and-so thought this. We're like, oh, okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:44

Shit, sweet. Yeah, no, it ain't yes, no, it ain't.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:48

Damn, yo. Less is my spirit animal. This is oh, that's hilarious.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:53

This is crazy. Yeah, no, we we talk about this kind of stuff all the time. Yeah, that's uh that's hilarious.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:59

It's um, it seems like a very abrasive mindset though. Like it seems like a very almost colloquially toxic, toxically masculine, but I don't that doesn't like bother me though. I don't think it's necessarily bad.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:16

No, I think it gets shit done.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:18

Yeah, nice. Yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:22

100% agree.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:23

Dope. All right. Well, it's been awesome having you in this academy, guys.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:28

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:29

Where can people find more about you?

SPEAKER_01 1:24:31

Well, they can listen to She's So Lucky every Tuesday, wherever you get your podcasts, and then they can follow me on Instagram at Les Alfred.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:38

Awesome, awesome. Thanks. Yeah, all right, y'all. So as we always say, if you want to get lucky, stay curious.