Can We Outgrow Human Nature? | Maynard Okereke (hiphopscienceshow)

In this episode of Curiosity Theory, Dr. Dakotah Tyler and Justin Shaifer sit down with Maynard Okereke, also known as Hip Hop MD, for a deep conversation about the future of humanity, evolution, and the idea of starting a new civilization from scratch.

They explore how human behavior is shaped by evolution, whether traits like competition and greed can ever be removed, and what it would take to build a better society on a new planet. The discussion also dives into genetic engineering, space colonization, and the philosophical implications of immortality.

Along the way, they tackle big questions about identity, meaning, and whether humanity could ever outgrow its own nature.

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Hosted by Dr. Dakotah Tyler and Justin Shaifer

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

20,000 years in the future, and you are starting a colony on a new plane. What is sort of your base levels?

SPEAKER_03 0:06

Currency is gonna be crypto. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Ultimately, you're just trying to improve on what we had here on Earth, right? Trying to eradicate all the bad things.

SPEAKER_01 0:17

My assertion is that a lot of the things that we are considering bad are actually just natural things that humans will slide into because they were things that were helpful for us to survive. I agree with what you're saying. Uh urgency that we have for curiosity theory, for example, is driven by the fact that me and Justin are gonna die one day.

SPEAKER_00 0:36

Yeah, I think there'll still be time constraints, even if everybody lives forever. Forever.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

Welcome back to Curiosity Theory. It is your co-host, Dr. Dakota Tyler, aka Dr. Starkid, astrophysicist, physics professor, and author.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

With me, I have uh the uh lovely and uh Zadia co-host, Justin Mr. Fascinate Schaefer, a science communicator, cut his mic, media science communicator, STEM media producer, and lover of phone calls. I like phone calls.

SPEAKER_01 1:22

Uh with us joining today, we have well, a man who needs no introduction in a respectful way.

SPEAKER_03 1:29

What up, what up, what up? Uh Maynard O'Kerake, also known as Hip Hop MD, Hip Hop Science Show. So always good to be back with my brothers, man. Like, I I love you know having these uh curious conversations and just diving into the random world of science. I mean, like this is this is what we do. And we and the the funny part, I don't think people know, like, we just do this naturally. Like you shut off this mic, you shut off this camera, like we'll just nerd out on whatever random topics. So it's always dope to be back here, man. It's dope.

SPEAKER_01 1:54

Today we're gonna be talking about Today.

SPEAKER_00 1:56

We're gonna be talking about a lot of things. All right, we're gonna be nerding about, we're gonna be nerding out about philosophy, uh, the philosophy of starting civilizations, science fiction, Apple versus iPhone users and the Apple versus iPhone users.

SPEAKER_01 2:10

That's a that's a civil war. Because they're at war with themselves. They don't realize it. They don't realize it, they're at war with themselves.

SPEAKER_00 2:16

Apple versus Android users, in addition to thinking about what it means to be immortal, to be human. What it means to be human. I think that's a good what does it mean to be human? What does it mean to be human? Find out right now.

SPEAKER_01 2:32

Yeah, here's an interesting question. What if you had um let's say that we're uh 20,000 years in the future, and you are like starting a colony on a new planet? What what is sort of your your base laws? Like what are some of the the main guidelines that you have, like stipulations that you would require for your society? Which I mean, ideally, right? You're trying to set up something that's gonna last and be fair, or maybe like maybe not, like maybe you want to do like a dictator thing.

SPEAKER_00 3:02

Well, the currency is gonna be crypto, okay?

SPEAKER_03 3:05

Be crypto, wait, wait, wait, wait, why?

SPEAKER_00 3:07

Be crypto because it's uh more efficient than traditional fiat.

SPEAKER_03 3:10

So you're but you're already assuming though that you your struct your technological structure is a certain way.

SPEAKER_01 3:17

You're starting a new society. This is like gonna be your version of Utopia, and your first law is something about meme coins.

SPEAKER_00 3:24

Yeah, I was actually I was trolling.

SPEAKER_03 3:26

Oh, okay, all right. I just wanted you to admit that. And I still have a beef to pick with you because I still I you sucked me in. You you know this man actually kind of conned me. This is great. In a way, he kind of key conned me. You conned me, you sucked me in into your little Bitcoin. Uh oh, I I got this, I got this like Bitcoin artwork, and you should invest in the we had a we had we had a whole he had a whole release party where they're releasing all this stuff, and I was like, oh, okay, cool. I invested like$400 into this, and then he just disappeared. Nothing I don't know what I don't know what the hell happened to him.

SPEAKER_00 4:00

Oh I got respected. Gotta run it.

SPEAKER_03 4:02

And then never said nothing. Never said nothing to this day. I don't know where. And then and then I forget what wallet that was, but it doesn't even exist anymore. The wallet doesn't exist. Well, that's not, that's not my fault. It was kind of your fault. It was kind of your because you you kind of Yoki kind of guaranteed me like this is the way to go. Like, you gotta do this. You gotta everybody's doing it. And I did it because of you, because I had faith in you. I was like, man, this he knows what he's doing. He's I I study you and me. We're like, oh yeah, yeah, we've been studying this. We gotta, I was like, okay, you know what? Let's put a little bit of my coin in here and see what happens, disappear. Can't trust him, bro.

SPEAKER_01 4:34

He also studies the 48 laws of power, so he knows how to manipulate. Jesus Christ. Hey, bro. I'm coming in hot right now, okay? I'm what is going on here? Nah, bro. I saw your audible history.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

All right, all right, all right, all right. So, first things first, this started an FT collection. Um I I don't feel ashamed about it. I think everyone was kind of rugged by it, you know, in a way. Me. Like we well, I'm saying everyone that collectively, because value, right, is an arbitrary thing. Yeah, right. And we collectively buy into this idea of value in everything, like the podcast, right? We believe that a podcast will be more valuable in the future than it is today. Therefore, we invest time, energy, money into that. That's the same thing that happened with us, and that was the impetus for us creating the collection in the first place. The cryptocurrency, though, the underlying currency that you would have to use to buy the NFTs, Ethereum, is actually more valuable today than it was then. So then, right. Yeah, so if you actually also like held a lot of Ethereum on the side, you would have appreciated your investment would have appreciated. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:32

So it's like you're sort of um, you're like right, but you had to be right about a specific thing that uses that.

SPEAKER_00 5:38

But overall, they're safe bet, or maybe like you want to make a lot of bets because you know something is probably gonna Yeah, like I do think that the currency, like I still believe in the idea of one, 92% of all currency today is digital, it's virtual currency, right? And so the system is kind of inefficient, specifically for a few use cases. Like one is when you're trying to transfer large sums of money, right now it takes like multiple days, and there's a lot of checks and balances, and then the bank takes a huge percentage of that fee. But if you transfer it via a cryptocurrency, you can actually sidestep all those processes. So there's a lot of specific use cases. Another one is in Africa, actually, a lot of countries, a lot of people don't trust the currency of their country. And so in a place like that, they have more trust in a trustless system that is decentralized than the than a government.

SPEAKER_03 6:29

But I don't know if it's necessary that they don't they trust their currency, they don't trust their government handling the currency, right? Because the government is the government is the issue, because the money is there, right? The money is there, it's gonna be a place that's just not getting distributed properly.

SPEAKER_00 6:40

So so they don't they don't trust the value of the currency, or they they don't they they trust they don't believe the government will handle the currency well. And so in that case, I think a decentralized currency can be helpful.

SPEAKER_03 6:52

But um, no, I that's not a good idea. But see the part going back to now having that as the base of your new civilization, you also have that just like we just talked about how Yukon me, right? Like, if you're gonna start off a civilization with everybody just creating whatever arbitrary coin they want to make, it that that's not structured enough to be able to begin a civilization with. We can do that now as we are as a civilized, because we started off with this foundation of this currency, however wrong or misguided it was, it gave a structure, you know what I'm saying? And then we're able to work from there and then empower the people later on to be able to be somewhat trustworthy or build trust into people. But if you're gonna start a brand new civilization on a completely new planet or whatever, and you're just gonna give every random person the ability to just create whatever arbitrary coin they want to be able to dictate the entire country, that just sets it off on a bad precedence already.

SPEAKER_00 7:42

Well, I think it has to be one mutually agreed upon currency that everybody ascribes value to. It wouldn't and then yeah, everybody's even the point.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

I don't even see the use case then now anymore of it being some currency. It's not as decentralized as it that that's created a centralized digital, but it's completely centralized.

SPEAKER_00 7:59

Well, if it's centralized, that means that it is controlled by the government. But so it it can still be decentralized and be the one currency that most people use if it's not controlled by the government. Okay. Are there any other rules on your society? Well, because I I didn't even say I'll say that was just a troll, it's a troll response.

SPEAKER_01 8:22

Alright, let's do it. Well, let's move on to the next thing. What what what what are like some of your laws that you that you would have to do?

SPEAKER_00 8:28

Alright, so ground rules, so ground rules, um dang, that's a good question. Ground rules, I think I'd want there to be a scientific mission uh that kind of a lot of the population is aligned on, that kind of gives the society a North Star and like some hope for the future, whether that be like expansion, progress, um, you know, expansion of the habitat, progress of uh our understanding of the world, or something like that. I think that would give people something to unite behind.

SPEAKER_03 9:00

I I'm with you because that was my first thought was having a society where science and technology is at the core of our society, where it's like the most like intrinsic value. Everybody knows, like, hey, this is what our comp our country is aiming for. These are this is how we're going to advance to the future, and this is how we're going to keep people healthy and safe, is by investing in technology. And you think about that from like, because they're two that and it's got a two-sided in a way, right? Because you think about like right now, a school education system, right? If we if we had every school, like a STEM-based school, which in my eyes should be, right? Every school should have a STEM-based program at the core, right? Because that's that's how you're going to be able to develop. So you hate the humanities? No, no, it's not that I hate the no. See, two parts can be true. I can want a STEM-based school, but still, that's what they're saying. When I say STEM is important, that's what they say. They say, oh, well, what about the humanities? No, because because because to me, like I shouldn't even say STEM, I should say like a STEAM-based program because incorporating the arts in there. Because I was just having a conversation with somebody just a couple days ago. Um, arts to me and science are foundationally tied already. If you think about, if you think about every the dopest, most genius art scientists that I know all have some artistic skill set.

SPEAKER_02 10:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:17

They're all like whether it's drawing, singing, production, whatever, every scientist I know does something artistically. They're just it's just connected. I think you I don't think you can have one without the other. And so the arts that to me is foundational. So whether that's you know, having music, you know, instrument play, uh, drawing, fashion, design, whatever, I to me that's always gonna come hand in hand with anything that you do in some STEM-based program. Now you can go and do the historic, like, you know, obviously, other things you have in classes, history, um, humanities, whatever, right? Um, I mean, obviously, you know, down here.

SPEAKER_01 10:53

There is no history on this new planet.

SPEAKER_03 10:55

Well, yeah, there is no history on this new planet. There's human history or the human before where we what we were before we came to the planet, but why you had not new planet? You probably did something in the place we're already before that you don't want people to know about.

SPEAKER_00 11:08

So you got to manipulate it.

SPEAKER_03 11:09

We have history here, but we're already erasing it, right?

SPEAKER_00 11:12

We we're already erasing a lot of history there.

SPEAKER_01 11:15

Well, hold up, in in your history curriculum, you have to choose something. Like you can't it can't be the entire history of everything and every civilization that happened since the beginning of time, right? And you would probably want to hit certain notes that sort of uh set the tone for mistakes that you don't want to make again, or perhaps like ideas or systems that you do want to iterate on. Yeah, so there is like, I think in inherently an amount of like engineering in um narrative telling.

SPEAKER_03 11:45

But that's kind of already what we're doing, that's kind of what we're doing in the US. Yeah, but people have to do that though. Yeah, we have to do that, but also erasing the history also dooms us to repeat what we did in the past, right? And that's why they always say history is important. Because if we don't know our history, we're failed to repeat it, right? And so right now, what's the you know, what's the whole thing? You're trying to erase slavery, you're trying to erase it uh uh uh information about what happened to indigenous people, right? Like all these things are being slowly erased out of a culture. But if we erase that and this new, you know, new generation that's coming in doesn't know about what we did in the past, we're going to continue to repeat that cycle somewhere in our evolutionary future, right? Ultimately. And so if you start dictating or start picking and choosing what elements are going to be acceptable for the society to know about moving forward, then you're just setting us up for failure eventually. Like if you're if you really want your if you really want your civilization to evolve and be able to face challenges going to be upcoming, you have to know everything that's happened that's led up to this point that you're currently at. So curate the information somehow.

SPEAKER_01 12:49

Somehow, right? Like, are you we're expecting every student from the age of five to essentially have a PhD in every branch of history?

SPEAKER_03 12:58

You don't have to be, I'm not saying everybody has to be a revolutionary like genius about every single thing that happened, but like, you know, like I'm I'm not I'm not a history buff, but I know I know a little bit about, you know, like the you know, obviously Homo sapiens weren't the only species that existed, right? We were all sorts of different things. A lot of people don't know that though. I know a lot of people don't know that, but we not because they weren't allowed to not know, or not because they weren't given the information. Books are out there, you can read. You have to be able to put it out there for people to have a chance to be able to learn about it and for others to educate other people about it. That's why you have people in different roles, that's why you have archaeologists that showcase the stories, that's why we have science communicators that tell about different things so that people that may not be informed in a specific area can learn about certain things, right? And so it's not that the expectation of that society is that they have to know everything that's happened to that all to that point, but they have to have access to the library, it's a library. Exactly. So I think I so I think for me, foundationally, like I always think about what are the what's the core things that always affect society, right? And you think about you think about every zombie post-apocalyptic movie that rapids, right? It's never the actual apocalyptic thing that kills people, it's people, right? It's it's it comes always comes down to us. We're always the root core of it, whether it's the walking dead, it's what we're always we're always fearful of the people, not the actual you know, disease or virus or whatever. So finding things fundamentally that connects us as humans, right? I think there should be some core value of some structure that we have set up that connects us and showcases that we are all one and we are together. That you know, something that brings us together. And it's tough because you know the people are probably going to go think, oh, religion, right? Like in a in a way, that's how religion came, is because it was a way to be able to organize people and give people belief into something, right? But then that also becomes chaotic because now people can declare whatever, you know, faith or whatever belief it is, and then now you start pitying people against, you know, other people. And this so it's it's a very convoluted kind of process. But there has to be the you have to accept that there's going to be some deviation from good in setting up any sort of society or civilization because intrinsically as humans, we're always gonna be flawed in that sense. We're not robots.

SPEAKER_01 15:17

So we yeah, well, yeah, so it kind of sounds like what you're saying, which I totally agree with this, is that you cannot, no matter what your rules are, you cannot legislate away human nature. Like the reason that in the all these zombie movies, which I mean it's never really happened, so this is all like sci-fi made of stuff, uh, is that what happens is you have a small group of people that are in factions that are like competing for limited resources and um they're competing against other people. And I think that that's actually very much more closer to like a hunter-gatherer uh type of environment. So in Papua New Guinea, this was one of the places that most recently in history basically had I think the what we could call colloquially the hunter and gatherer lifestyle preserved, where there was hundreds or thousands of different tribes that all spoke different languages, and they, you know, they didn't have a bunch of advanced technology, and they also didn't travel far outside of their uh like territory. Like if they did, there would be it would be violence, like they would they would be um, you know, there would be war, there would be conflict, and that sort of thing. So for evolutionary biologists, anthropologists, it was an interesting test case to study like early evolution of languages, the early behaviors of like hunters and gatherers that are humans. And I think that we no matter what rules we try to make, biologically, that's who we are. We are like the small band of of people that live together and survive, and like you can't, you cannot like uh short of gene editing some of these traits out of ourselves, which I almost feel like is what eventually needs to be done or something like that.

SPEAKER_03 17:06

That would be very interesting, actually, is like are we because what's what's always kind of a thought process is like are we going to evolve to the point where we eradicate ourselves, right? And start over, you know, or you know, start from scratch, you know, like through war, I mean nuclear war, we just eradicate all humanity, right? And then it's just cockroaches left to roam the earth, you know what I'm saying? Like, but if we evolve to that point where we can genetically, you know, eradicate things that predispose us to killing ourselves, that can actually get pretty interesting. If we can get so technological, and then we're think about we're getting there, right? Like, I mean, we have brain to you know, human to you know uh robotic interfaces, right?

SPEAKER_01 17:50

So, you know, learning more about gene what genes do certain things as well.

SPEAKER_03 17:54

Exactly, right? And and how to you know remove certain diseases or implement certain things, you know, to where we live longer than we've ever lived in our human history, right? And so we're and that ultimately that's the thing we're trying to do is like can we find uh uh the fountain of youth and live forever, you know, type things, right? So will we get to a point where we eradicate that human nature element where we have, you know, we're predisposed to um uh pushing each other away, building our own society, separating ourselves to where now we are intrinsically together forever, you know, you know, genealogically based. You know, so like that that could be an interesting mindset for how it would take obviously a millennia for to get there, but technologically we're moving at such a fast pace that that could be pretty pretty realistic.

SPEAKER_00 18:40

Yeah. I mean, based on I would say the the the thickness of the atmosphere of a lot of the planets that we are looking at as close candidates for colonization and the environments in general, it just feels like a genetically engineered human would be optimal to live on those environments or a genetically engineered civilization of humans.

SPEAKER_03 19:01

Yep. And but we're only genetic, we're only doing the genetic variations right because we're trying to get there quickly. Eventually, we we we could evolve, you know. I'm saying it's gonna take millions of years. We could evolve to live somewhere else. Oh, yeah, let's just you know what's taking about a million million years.

SPEAKER_01 19:17

I don't know. I think that we would just die before that happened. Like an evolution would occur if we went somewhere else, but you know, if you just released all eight billion people on like Titan, for example, which is a moon of Saturn that has an atmosphere and has liquid methane uh lakes and oceans, at no point like we wouldn't evolve close enough to not die. Eight billion of us, there might be one of us that could be.

SPEAKER_03 19:43

I can't remember those. There's a movie, bro. There's some movie that kind of that did this or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 19:46

But it's called the movie is called Titan, I believe. And it's got the dude from he's the dude from Jake, he's Jake Sully from Avatar.

SPEAKER_03 19:56

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:57

And they they it's an experimentation program where they inject uh a bunch of people with these different some some sort of virus that like helps them rapidly evolve, and then he like flies around on Titan. This is what you're talking about, right? I think so. I think so.

SPEAKER_03 20:10

I think so. Yeah, yeah. But he thought but he was like the only person that had this ability to be able to survive there, right? And but he didn't have the ability. They injected him. They injected him with something that gave him, yeah. But that could be, that could be. I mean, think about think about what access we have to medicines and whatnot. We're we're trying to regenerate new limbs and stuff right now, right? So, like, so there could be feasibly in the next, I don't know, 100, 150 years, whatever, we get to a point where, okay, we are trying to survive on Mars, let's say, and uh to this new, you know, this thin atmosphere that's on Mars, and we're trying to find a way to genetically expose ourselves to be able to survive there. Could there be some drug, something that you can inject in a certain amount of people where the majority of people are going to die, but there are gonna be a few people who somewhere in their gene pool, you know, their genetics merge with this medicine to create something new that gives them ability to be able to breathe a certain way.

SPEAKER_01 21:07

That sounds completely fake to me. I mean, it is completely.

SPEAKER_03 21:10

I just want to be on record saying that. All this is completely fake. I mean, all this, I'm I'm I'm talking about war.

SPEAKER_00 21:15

This is a main or civilization here. So this is what he's gonna do.

SPEAKER_03 21:18

Yeah, well, no, they haven't even gotten to my universe, the physics is. I'm talking about the possibility. This is this is actually even pre-my universe, like getting to that universe, right? Because we have to something has to we have to find a way to get there, right? So I'm thinking about what's the possibilities that could happen for us to actually physically get there to some alternate world that we'll be able to survive and thrive on that's much different than our current planet. So I'm just thinking about just gotta have to be though.

SPEAKER_01 21:42

It could be a planet that's exactly the same. It's a copy, like a carbon copy. So you so you don't have to like deal with all that stuff.

SPEAKER_00 21:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:49

But you still have to deal with figuring out how you're gonna create the society that is like I don't know, like better than all the other societies that have ever existed.

SPEAKER_03 21:57

Because ultimately you're just trying to improve on What we had here on Earth, right? You're trying to look at all trying to eradicate all the bad things and trying to bring all the positives. Anyway, if you're if you are looking at it from a good, good human perspective, right? That's what any good human would want to do. It's like, okay, there are benefits of our planet, of our society. How do we take those benefits? How do we eradicate all the disadvantages and all the negative things, right? So there's it's gonna be a give and take somewhere.

SPEAKER_01 22:24

My um assertion is that that cannot be done because in this moral and like this value judgment of good and bad, a lot of the things that we are considering bad are actually just natural things that humans will slide into because they were things that were helpful for us to survive and be fit like murder killing ourselves, right?

SPEAKER_03 22:47

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 22:47

I mean, we could come up with I could come up with an infinite number of examples where killing somebody else would be helpful for you surviving and passing on your genes. Yeah. Not to not as like a justification or you know, saying that that's something that I desire, but I understand why that exists. Like I understand why people want a resource for it. I understand why people are greedy. That makes sense to me. I understand why people steal. I can imagine that if there was a time where humans were experiencing like extreme scarcity because there was a drought or something, and the humans that were more likely to steal from another tribe or even their neighbor that give them food. And so, like, from a you know, mathematical perspective, like one plus one equals two, I understand that. And it's like, how do we ultimately I think what we would want to do is like suppress those genes that may have been necessary to allow those behaviors in the past, so because you are you know, we live in a society now where that's not necessary, like if if wealth inequality wasn't so bad, then I think everybody on earth would actually have like what they needed. But because people still have the tendency to resource hoard, etc., then you have these extreme amounts of inequality and like low empathy and people just caring about themselves, so all these problems arise. And I would say this is my argument, is that that is an expression of what we genetically have inside of us, and in some for some people, that tendency may be stronger than others, yeah. And obviously there's social conditioning as well, but I would argue that the even the potential to behave in that way seems, at least in my opinion, to be like a genetical a genetic parameter in space.

SPEAKER_03 24:33

So ultimately, in any society, we have to accept a certain amount of loss, or you know, like there has to be some there has to be some baseline where we're like, this is okay, killing a certain amount of people or whatever. Like there's certain things that we have to be like, we're we're good with it. And we kind of do that already in society, right? Like, obviously, murder is deemed bad, but we also do have standard ground laws, right? Because that's that's foundationally how we survive. That's how foundationally how we continue our gene pool is to protect ourselves, self-defense, right? And so we already, in a sense, already accept the baseline, like people are going to die in order for us to be able to advance and move forward as we all want to move forward as humans. Even though we have morals and values for the most part, and most good people, but we also accept that, hey, certain people are going to have to go in order for us to be able to thrive as a society, right?

SPEAKER_00 25:28

And so I think there was a society where everybody stayed alive and nobody knew was born. And nobody knew was what? Say that again? A society where everybody was engineered in the way that they didn't age.

SPEAKER_01 25:42

Oh, so there is no new introduction of people. No new introduction of people.

SPEAKER_00 25:45

Everybody just becomes increasingly more skilled, more competent, more aware of how to navigate their way.

SPEAKER_03 25:50

So death isn't a possible So death isn't you we just we just have we do have a society of people that just live forever, just eat more.

SPEAKER_01 25:57

I guarantee that society would collapse.

SPEAKER_00 25:59

I I agree, but I'm just curious about the thought experiment, like to decant their clones. Like they die, they're just replaced with a clone that has a backup of their memories, and so there's not really like a turnover. What was that?

SPEAKER_03 26:13

There was a recent movie, uh was it like Lucky 7, something 17. Mickey 17. Mickey 17. Yeah, yeah. Mickey 17 was that kind of thing where he couldn't die, right? Like there was something.

SPEAKER_01 26:21

He's like the property of this company.

SPEAKER_03 26:23

Yeah, he was a property of company, and so they'd have him do these you know high-risk tasks or whatever. Um die all the time. They knew he would die, but they needed for human testing, right? They needed to know, okay, can we survive on this planet? We send Mickey out there, okay. He dies, okay. We need to do some other experiment to figure out, okay, what works here. Ultimately, though, if you have, if you have a society of immortals, right? It's just immortal people that go. But what's the failure of being immortal, right? Like, we ultimately don't have any value in anything. Like, what do we value anymore? Life isn't valuable anymore because we can't die, so we don't, we what what do we hold precious? It's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 27:02

From uh like a in from a philosophical perspective. Like we've done something to the psychology.

SPEAKER_03 27:07

Like we are we are here in this room, we're all friends. We go out, we kick it, we hang, right? Because we value friendship because we have a short amount of time on this earth, right? We have family bonds, right? We go and we do epic things like you're going to go to Spain, right? And you're gonna have that experience, you know, it's gonna be a life-changing experience. You meet people, you have relationships, you fall in love, all these different things because we know it's viable because we're only here for a certain amount of time and we could be gone tomorrow. But if you're just a society of immortal people, that it there's never a risk for anything. I can go to any danger, whatever, and there's and it's whatever. I there's there's no value in my life anymore. And so, how does that affect a society as a whole if you just have a civilization of people that don't really care about any emotional aspect that ties them to that life that they're living?

SPEAKER_00 27:58

What if their goals become bigger? Like, what if our values are based on something that requires a longer time horizon? Like, I want to solve all the scientific mysteries of humanity. Like, that's a huge goal that would take many human life, yeah. Forever in theory. Yeah and that could be a pursuit that could fulfill a person in the world.

SPEAKER_03 28:20

But that's a person though. How many pursuit how many lifelong pursuits are there like that? And and and and and why would you and why would you want to find that scientist like why what would be your what would be your motivation for trying to f to solve every scientific feat, right? Curiosity.

SPEAKER_01 28:38

Because Yeah, I don't think that my curiosity, and I could be wrong about this, because I'm a human, but um, I don't think that my curiosity is like funded by this knowledge that I'm gonna die one day. There are probably some things in my life that are uh sort of motivated by that. Yeah, but I don't think it's my curiosity.

SPEAKER_00 28:53

I'm salty, I'm gonna die one day because I don't get to answer all my questions.

SPEAKER_03 28:57

Yeah, but like, but you also kind of part of us, uh part of that curiosity, we want to answer those questions for a reason, right? We either want to help somebody or you want to make some sort of change or something.

SPEAKER_01 29:07

I don't know if that I don't know if that's true though.

SPEAKER_03 29:10

You don't think so?

SPEAKER_01 29:11

I think that curiosity itself is like one of these inherent traits that we have that we have because we needed it. You need it to like understand enough about the world to survive. And so I think that it's not necessarily tied to, yes, in society today, everything is tied to like deeper meaning, but that's because we have the privilege of not just needing to figure out how to not die day to day. You know, for the most part, people are uh honestly like so secure and so comfortable that it kind of like bores you into depression if you're not challenging yourself or um like sparking some sort of curiosity. So I don't I just I I don't think necessarily, I could be wrong, that the the curiosity and the whys behind it is tied to the fact that we know that our lives are in.

SPEAKER_03 29:58

But think about this, okay. So we'll personalize it from your perspective, right? If you had the ability to you do exoplanet research, right? And you wanted like you want you you do have the ability, right? You do it. I'm saying that's why I'm personalizing it to you, all right? You you doing that research, right? On let's say what's your favorite exoplanet? Wasp 69b. You knew it. I know you're a part of it.

SPEAKER_01 30:21

I know. I heard 70 come out.

SPEAKER_03 30:23

Somewhere along the lines. I knew it was wasp something, all right? Okay, but it's only there's only one, it's not like there's multiple WASPs, right? Are there multiple? Oh, there is. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 30:29

In fact, mine is the 69th in the catalog.

SPEAKER_03 30:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 30:33

So there's many.

SPEAKER_03 30:34

You guys did one thing where you talked about the naming, how you know, okay, we'll we'll go down that. Okay, but you you Wasp 69B, okay? If you like, there's doing that research, doing that work, right? Wanting to know, I mean, ultimately, we want to know what what exactly is that planet like, right? Is is there, you know, are there rocky aspects of it that are similar to Earth? What's really, you know, we know a little bit about the atmosphere, but you know, what components of the atmosphere, like what is their actual levels? Could humans possibly survive there, right? There's a certain element of wanting to discover that that pushes you more because you want to know as if you can know within the next 40 years, let's just say, like I'm just uh let's say next 40-50 years in your kind of main lifespan, you're gonna live for another. I'm not gonna put a limit on your time leader. Let's say you're living for another 50 years before you pass away, right? You want to you want to answer these questions, right? There's a drive knowing that you have a limit to push you to want to answer these questions, right? Because you know I only have a certain amount of time. So I'm going to invest my energy, I'm gonna talk to experts, we're going to make new discoveries. Anytime some telescope finds out something new uh uh you know about these components of these exoplanets, I'm going to dive into the weeds of it and know more. I because I have this time limit here, right, on Earth. If I don't have a time limit, right, and I'm gonna live forever, where is that is that drive, that curiosity to want to know more about the exoplanet going to stay with you? Because you know, I could I could figure this out anytime I want to do that.

SPEAKER_01 32:06

Yeah, actually, I could do this in a billion years. Like, I'm maybe I'll do that later. So I understand that, and I do recognize that that perhaps is playing like some some some subconscious role. I would agree with that. But uh, as a counterexample, which is a slightly different thing, I would point out, for example, the fact that the universe is is like practically infinite, and it may actually literally be infinite. It may be like we don't we don't know that. Um and something like that in and of itself can uh produce sort of an existential crisis in a person that up until that point maybe had never thought about that and was really focused on like them sort of being the center the central focus of their lives, but also of everything. And when people talk about experience, like understanding that wait a second, maybe none of this matters, which is what you're saying with the time thing, is like, man, maybe like maybe it doesn't matter what I do with my time because I have so much of it. That for some people that can be debilitating and uh sort of like shake their identity and worldview to a point where they sort of land in a um a depressive uh state where they're like, oh well, not you know, none of this even matters, like the universe is infinite. But that is not the feeling that I get. I find even more meaning in that, right?

SPEAKER_03 33:23

And so you find more meaning in in not knowing and knowing that you that you have infinite time to be able to do anything.

SPEAKER_01 33:31

Well, no, I think that that is not something that pumps the brake on me. Like I'm a driven person. The fact that I have a lot of time does not make me not want to do something. I don't think that, and I could be right.

SPEAKER_03 33:45

But that's foundational, right? Because you because we know that we don't have time, right? Like at our core, we we know we're gonna like that's it's given fact, right? Like, so we can only live with it as so I'm thinking kind of existentially, right? Like, like I think we're all driven people, like we all have individual drive, we don't need to be motivated by others to do anything.

SPEAKER_01 34:03

You think that that dies just because now we can live in the world.

SPEAKER_03 34:06

But we all but we all all of us naturally procrastinate in some aspect, right? If you know, like, oh shoot, we got this podcast that we're doing, like, and I and we have a week to be able to knock out all these episodes, you're gonna grind and grind and grind and piece together, you're gonna find people that support all these different things, you're gonna find an editor to get all this work done in a week because you know that that's your time limit, right? Are you gonna do all that stuff same work in a week? If you know that I don't have to get this done until like five, six months from now, you're not gonna, you're not gonna, you're not gonna crash compile all of that. The time limit that you have drives you in a sense to be able to accomplish this.

SPEAKER_01 34:41

I agree with what you're saying. I disagree that the uh urgency that we have for curiosity theory, for example, is a good example, is driven by the fact that me and Justin are gonna die one day. Because the the reality is we don't have to do this podcast, we don't have to like schedule a bunch of episodes in a week. We could put it off to next week, we could put it off to next month or next year. We could be doing that right now and still not like run up to to death, right?

SPEAKER_03 35:07

The death component, but death is just the ultimate end, right? I'm just talking about the immediate capacity of time limits, right? There's constraints to everything that we would still have those.

SPEAKER_00 35:17

Yeah, I think there'd still be time constraints, even if everybody lives forever. Forever.

SPEAKER_03 35:22

You think that we would still find what would those can but then what would those constraints be? What would be what would give us the fuel to get it, the immediacy to get certain things done?

SPEAKER_00 35:30

Well, here's something that comes to mind if we never figure out how to travel faster than the speed of light, then people are traveling to different planets or different star systems, then my interaction with you is gonna be limited by like your availability at this current time. If I know you're gonna be in Proxima Centauri B next week, well, oh dang, we gotta get this out next week. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Because I know like maybe we have infinite time, but like I'm not gonna see you again for another 40 years, and I still would rather get this done now. You know, that that yeah, you're you're getting you're teaching him. He's getting he's getting wise, he's knowing these things. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:05

I didn't know anything before today.

SPEAKER_00 36:09

Professor Tyler here is endowing me with his great knowledge of how to think. How to think in general.

SPEAKER_03 36:15

So appreciate that, bro. That's good, that's good. That's the true, true, true sign of true sign of growth right there. But actually, that okay, that in a in a cert element kind of changes my perspective slightly because now I'm thinking about, okay, like one of the things I I uh that always kind of blows mind when we think about the vastness of the universe, right? We have galaxies that are billions of light years away, right? And that we know we will never see in our lifetime. We just know that we are never going to get there. I'm not going to know what exists on in some nebula somewhere billions of miles, billions of light years away. But if we do, if we live forever, live infinitely, and we say, hey, we're going to send this group on this space capsule, right? It's gonna take us a billion years to get there, but we we can live right. What's the problem with Mars and other space? It's gonna take for long too long for us to be able to survive to get there. But if we know we can live forever and we can just send somebody on a ship, go here to this galaxy. You this group go here to this galaxy, and we just discover what's out there. That does bring value, right? Because I think, I mean, obviously not everybody's gonna want to do it, but I think we would want to go, right? If you you can live forever and you can find out what is on Wasp 69B, and you can go with a small group and take whatever time it's gonna take to get there so you can find out.

SPEAKER_01 37:37

I know what's on Wasp 69B. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a gas giant, so it's just got a bunch of gas. There's nothing for it.

SPEAKER_03 37:43

Okay, but yeah, but but you know what I'm saying. Like, come on, like, what what whatever some you're saying? Some no some life form could possibly exist.

SPEAKER_01 37:51

Or other rocky planets that orbit other stars, like we don't know about the yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:55

But like that You gotta teach them, bro. That would be that would be that would be, but I but I I don't I don't think that I I think we can still life shouldn't just be limited to why is life just limited to rocky planets.

SPEAKER_01 38:06

No, that's a good point, right?

SPEAKER_03 38:08

Like why like life could be like why can life be on a gas giant?

SPEAKER_01 38:11

There could be forms of life that we that just kind of like fall out of what our biological sort of uh discrete understanding of the life that we have. I totally agree. Yeah, yeah. Who knows?

SPEAKER_03 38:21

Yeah, that's what that's all I'm saying. Who knows what's on while season is that way? We don't know. We think we know based off what we see in our solar system, but there could be there could be all sorts of other components there and and life forms you don't know about. But the the curiosity to want to discover that and know that hey, this is gonna take me a billion years to get there, but I live forever, so I can actually get there and find out what it is, that drive could motivate you to go, even though we live forever. But to know that you will eventually solve some existential problem or question that you've had could drive you, you know, even though you're still living forever. So I do, I do see that, I do see that element. If there's something that you know is going to take that amount of time to solve, you billing you willing to be able to uh invest in that and live forever, just so you can be able to see that through could be motivation for sure.

SPEAKER_00 39:15

And I think if as humanity we were able to open our minds to like, okay, what's a 10,000-year problem? What's a 10 million year problem? And like see all of these as in the realm of the possibility of us being able to solve them or a group of us being able to solve them, I think that would be a more enlightened version of us, arguably.

SPEAKER_01 39:34

I would say that you've now we've crossed the boundary into no longer being human. Um, like notoriously, yeah, we are short-sighted, and I think that that's probably tied to an evolutionary history where the word number 10 million didn't even mean anything, which is why we're so bad at like imagining these long timescales or these big numbers. It was like more so you're worried about like, you know, what are you gonna be doing in 10 hours or or maybe 10 days or maybe like 10 months? But it gets like so hard that I wonder what the psychology is for a human who's on a ship that's gonna take a billion years to like get to the next galaxy or something. And like, is that even a sustainable, you know, people uh go crazy when they're like trapped somewhere for too long. Yeah, they they they ran an experiment in like one of these Mars simulation habitats to see how people, if they could sus you know, just live with other humans on you know in a little habitat.

SPEAKER_00 40:29

So I visited I visited that. Oh, for real? The Mars Desert Research Station in Utah. Yeah, it was for uh the show I filmed with Al Roker.

SPEAKER_04 40:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:37

And a lot of the people that were there uh for the research, because there's always like different research groups that are there. Yeah, this group had a bunch of mental health professionals because like that's one of the most needed professions when you have people that are dealing with this kind of new challenge, yeah, and like trying to navigate, like everyone knows that that's gonna be a problem. And so it's like, how do you you need like really competent mental health professionals to even be able to address that?

SPEAKER_02 41:01

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:01

But you're right though, I think we do now cross this line of not being human anymore because think about it. If you're if it's gonna take a billion years, what I'm just I don't know how long it's gonna take to get to Wasp, but it's gonna take a billion years to get there, we're not the day-to-day doesn't matter anymore. Like we go to sleep eight hours or whatever, we wake up, we do our day-to-day things, we eat, you know, read, whatever tasks or whatever. But if you're traveling for a billion years, is your sleep your sleep cycle isn't eight hours anymore? Because why you why naturally why is your body gonna expend the energy for those rest of those hours to survive?

SPEAKER_01 41:37

You'd almost go into thesis for billions of years or something.

SPEAKER_03 41:40

Yeah, yeah. You could you could sleep, your your sleep cycle could become a million years, whatever. You sleep for a million years and you wake up for whatever, I don't know, ten minutes. That's okay. So whatever. You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_00 41:50

Like all this like daily routine stuff is primitive to me anyway. Waking up, trying to like do stuff at a certain like I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 41:57

Hustle culture that we're yeah, hustle culture.

SPEAKER_00 41:59

It seems like kind of lowbrow stuff when you really are like, yeah, I'm on like this one million year routine. Every thousand years I got this thing.

SPEAKER_03 42:06

But think about how you buy but think how you evolve now. If you're if you are sleeping a million years at a time, there's no need for your heart to pump the same way. There's no need for your blood vessels to be the similar size or whatever. Like we lose physically the traits that actually make us human because we don't need them anymore. Yeah, the biology we can almost become just a blob, like we can evolve into just a mass, literally, just a mass of you know, um uh whatever primordial mass. It sounds free. Yeah, it sounds freeing to me. Right, literally, like a you know you think about think about deep sea organisms, right? A blob that came up was like a blobfish, right? It's like or or any other deep sea organism, right? You don't you you you lose certain skeletal structures, right? You lose you lose certain components, you lose your ability to see because you don't need you there's no light, right? So what's the what are your eyes for? You don't need to have eyes anymore because you don't need to see. Would we lose our ability to see what we what are we seeing, you know, for millions of years? They're not looking at anything. Why do we need our eyes anymore? Like we would actually evolve into something that's not human at some point.

SPEAKER_01 43:13

Okay, exactly. And so this is why I think that a society like that would collapse is that built into, we don't think about this because we're individuals that want to survive, I think that built into the overall success of any life form is uh the need to evolve, right? What is evolution? It's the new batch that can be a little bit different than the old batch. And sometimes those differences are very helpful, sometimes they're harmful, and sometimes they're completely benign. And if you are not producing new individuals that have this diversity of whatever thought, uh physical capabilities or whatever, then you don't have the ability to lose your eyesight when you're at the bottom of the ocean. You know, you don't have the ability to evolve the uh biology to even live at such a deep pressure. And so I think that in something like a society where Which I do characterize as sort of a living thing, has like the properties of uh emergent properties of something that's living is that it's absolutely required for things to die, because that's the only way that you know, think about the next generation for them to like sort of figure out the best fit mold into the current environment. And so you imagine if we just do a thought experiment with humans, imagine that um the all of the people who were alive in feudal Europe when there was like kings and peasants, imagine that none of them ever died, right? What would society look like today? Well, surely it would be like some sort of version of that that's not so different. Um, but what what what's necessary for societal progression is sort of out with the old, in with the new.

SPEAKER_00 44:50

But why does that have to occur by death and then rebirth? Why couldn't we engineer that into a society in other ways?

SPEAKER_03 44:58

Because because I think sometimes like evolution, right? Like evolution will naturally naturally eliminate some of those traits or whatever, bring new traits in. But also death, death in an aspect makes us learn, like, oh, okay, we can't do this anymore, right? You go back to you talking about in in in feudal Europe or whatever, uh, you know, we had the black plague, right? The black plague eradicated how many millions of people, tens of millions of people across the globe. But we learned a lot from the black plague. We learned, oh shoot, this is how diseases spread. Oh, we can't touch these things and then go and and and and and uh and pass them around, or we learn all these new things that now, even though we lost, well, I can't remember there was some percent like we lost like half the society or whatever, right? In like the Black Plague.

SPEAKER_01 45:42

But then from there, a third of Europe and in the Americas, it was something like nine out of ten.

SPEAKER_03 45:47

Right. And so from there, like we we were forced in that period of time, just like we had in, you know, not not to that scale, but over COVID, right? We learned so many different things, and now we utilize those things that we learned in such a short amount of time to now quickly evolve to know, okay, we gotta do this. We there's so many things that now have happened post-Black Plague that helped us as a society, and a lot of things that happened post-COVID as well, too, that also changes society.

SPEAKER_00 46:14

Any of these things that you have mentioned have required or necessitated death at all. I think that there are abilities like our brains become less plastic as we age, but we could, in theory, bioengineer more neuroplasticity and continue to be more adaptable, and we could face adversity and react to it and then be like, okay, we have to change. I don't think that requires death.

SPEAKER_01 46:35

I disagree for the I agree with what you said that presumably every medical biological uh challenge could be sort of like out engineered. I totally agree with you on that. Um, where I disagree is that the psychology of an individual or a group of people is sort of dynamic enough to get that in the same way that a group of young people would be. So, like for example, um, we have different generations, right? And one thing about a younger generation is that they always hate the older generation. Yeah, and so one thing that arises.

SPEAKER_03 47:14

I mean, he's a strong word.

SPEAKER_01 47:15

No, I don't think so. I don't think it is. I think that they think that they're lame, they think that they're losers, they think that they're selfish, they think that they're uh superior and entitled. This is what young people always think about old people, every generation. And so there's this urge that, you know, it seems like it comes from us, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was biologically hardwired into us to re to sort of rebel or resist against the generation before us. And that leads to a lot of crazy things like a revolution, but it leads to a lot of progress, uh, social progress in the way that we see certain things that I don't believe we would have gotten to had it been the case that the new generation wants to just simply emulate the older generation, which is what I would consider in sort of an immortal uh species to be like, because there is no new generation. Like your ideas are the ideas of you know of yourself in the future. And I think that there may be, I'm you know, I'm just saying this, I don't know if this is true or not, but I think that there is probably a lot of inherent like value in the physics of life of having um newcomers that sort of oppose the oldcomers for no other reason, except in that sometimes this will lead to progression. Does that make sense what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_03 48:29

Yeah, yeah. I I yeah, no, I I I I see what you're saying. And I I think it kind of taps back into because you said, okay, we could just bioengineer these things out of us, whatever, but where's the drive to bioengineer those things out of us we if we if we don't know, if we know, if we don't know that we're going to die, right? Us us having that time frame or that time limit is is that motivation to bioengineer these aspects out of us because we know if we have them, we are going to ultimately die. You know what I'm saying? And so there's it's kind of a catch-22 in that sense, because you have to have that whereethal of knowing that there's a time constraint to your survival that forces you to now want to do these things to change us holistically.

SPEAKER_00 49:08

I don't know. I feel like I could just bioengineer all the things at the same time in theory. Like lifespan, uh biologically, I'm like the age 20, right? With neuroplasticity-wise, I'm like age 20, 21. Uh, lifespan-wise, I could just do all the things, like a like basically like a whole software update, do all the stuff at the same time. Wait, did you just say you stay 20, 21 forever? Neurologically.

SPEAKER_03 49:30

Neurologically? Is that the prime? Is that the prime age?

SPEAKER_00 49:33

I'm just saying, like this it's an age in which you have a more plastic brain and you're able to be moldable. Correct.

SPEAKER_03 49:40

I saw some studies some recently about like adolescence could actually concede into your 30s.

SPEAKER_00 49:46

Yeah, it's like an emerging study. Yeah, it's interesting. Um, yeah, I yeah, I'm not sure exactly, you know, the kind I got, yeah. I don't feel like I read the whole paper. Yeah, I read the whole thing. But yeah, I think it's interesting because yeah, we're I just I just feel like progression in society doesn't necessarily necessitate a younger generation wanting to subvert an older generation. Like I feel like progression in society could happen by other by other means.

SPEAKER_01 50:12

I'm just saying that if you look at all of human history, that's always how it's happened.

SPEAKER_00 50:16

That's how yeah, that's how it's historically happened, but what if we aspire to something greater, something bigger? Yeah, something less subversive.

SPEAKER_01 50:22

So that's like, do you think that you can out-engineer nature? And I personally don't think that that's possible. But if you think that it is, then you could create like this magical thing. But I think that you know that this is again, this is just like the way that I think about it. Is that the what you need things to snake back and forth, like you need that politically? We have to have this pendulum, or you go infinitely in one direction, like you have to. I think that you have to have this. You need generations that don't want to be like the old generation, and sometimes you'll get bad stuff that happens, but luckily it's gonna swing back the other way.

SPEAKER_00 50:58

Why do you need that? Huh? Why does that why is that necessary? Why is what necessary? The pendulum effect of cultural movements. Why is that a prerequisite?

SPEAKER_01 51:07

Well, I I would say for two things. One, it seems like that's how everything works, things oscillate in the universe, almost everything um moves back and forth. But two, and for the bigger reason, it's that you are not guaranteed to be on a trajectory towards ultimate success. I don't think that that exists. And so people move a certain way, okay, people get older, and then the older people get more money. And then what happens to the people with the most money? They get more money, and then they get more money, and then eventually you end up with this uh time, for example, in um Fran France around the revolution, where you have this tiny group of people that has all of the wealth, and what naturally happens is that you know, this group of people who came up uh has a revolution, and this like offsets this infinite direction that everything was going in, and it's not like I I see what you're saying, and I but I just think that that is the way that it works out is that this oscillation ends up sweeping you into better directions through just potential of like diversity. It's like, why do you need um why are you slightly different than both of your parents? Why is it good to mix genes like that? Because you're gonna produce some new things, some new ideas, maybe some new like morph body morphologies or something. And the chances are that in the given environment that's gonna help those people survive, and then you'll see populations of people that literally become physical physiologically different. Well, it's like, well, why do you need that? Why didn't everybody just stay the same forever? I mean, that's just not how evolution works. Like things are more or less fit based on the environment. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:43

Well, I think this I think this kind of comes at, I think this kind of leads back to a fundamental flaw of our um of a kind of a thought experiment, right? Of this kind of immortal society, right, on this distant, on this new world or whatever, because that society to it in order for that to work, that like we have to, it has to be kind of almost big bang effect. Like that society has to start boom, like this. Like we wake up in the next instantaneous moment, we're all just immortal, and this is how we survive, right? If it's a progression thing, then it goes back to what you're saying, right? Because you have to kind of have these natural pendulum swings and whatnot. But going back to like you're saying, like we can't out-engineer nature, I'm completely with you. Like we can out-engineer nature, but if we are projecting to be this like immortal society or whatever, at that point, like we have to accept that we've already out-engineered nature, right? That now we are in full control of what beings we are at at some point, right? And so I think that ultimately becomes the flaw in this experiment, is like the time frame of this happening, of this, of us being immortal. If it's a thing where, like, you know, we you know, somebody we're whatever, somewhere this we're all living society, whatever, and then like you guys start aging or whatever, and I'm still, I'm still here. I'm still I'm still look like me. It's been 10 years now. Me, man, you man, you you you haven't changed. You're like Pharrell out here. Like you still you still look the same. There's 40 years from now, and I'm still people start being like, what is going on? Like, why have you not aged? And then I start realizing, like, oh, I something happened in my school, and now Journey has it, right? And my daughter, right? And so now we have two immortal, and she grows up, and then and then now you have this progression of like we're slowly getting these mortal people, and then now society starts to like, oh, they're immortals at you, just like you would like in the mutants, right? In X-Men, right? You're gonna have normal people, and then you have mutants, right? You're gonna have normal people, you're gonna have immortals, and then now there becomes this whole societal type of aspect of like, oh, how do we treat these people? Do you know it's in now? Do these immortals have this certain power over us of our species? How much time frame does that happen? Is it gonna be a revolution that's going to change our mindset of how we look at time and all something? So there has to be now this progression to lead us to that immortal society in some way that's gonna cause turmoil and kind of destruction for the rest of society, right? And lead to some ultimate fate for the rest of society, or is this position of us becoming immortal an instantaneous thing where it just happens and we're all immortal and it just we're all starting on the same page? Like a spaceship full of embryos, drop them on a planet, they're all immortal.

SPEAKER_01 55:15

Yeah, I would still argue that your society would fail uh for lack of ability to adapt and change. I'm just I just predicted that would happen. But um, and I don't really see why it wouldn't, other than you just saying that it wouldn't.

SPEAKER_03 55:31

And then going back to because I because I because I'm really I'm really still stuck on the traveling to you know while 69b, right?

SPEAKER_01 55:38

Like I think it's like 416 light years away or something.

SPEAKER_03 55:42

416 light years away.

SPEAKER_01 55:43

Something like that. Or 460, I forget.

SPEAKER_03 55:45

Right. So you have to also assume that for 460, based off of our current your current mindset, right? This curiosity that you have about this exoplanet, is that going to exist for 419 six for what 419 light years, right? Like, is that going to that amount of time, is that curiosity gonna stay with you? Is that gonna evolve with you as I'm not saying as you transcend into some other, as we naturally evolve into some other being into that time frame, right? Is that curiosity going to stay with you? Is it gonna get to a point where like man, I don't really care much more about this planet?

SPEAKER_01 56:22

I I'm I that's like my planet, that's my baby. That's like my biggest uh discovery. I'm not interested in going there. I was never curious about that. That was a that was a that was like an idea about traveling somewhere. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 56:35

If you if you assuming that it like you But wait, are you saying you'd you'd you'd have you'd have if you could go, you'd have no desire to go?

SPEAKER_01 56:41

No. Oh, okay. Not if I had to travel for like 30,000 years.

SPEAKER_03 56:45

But you're but you're mortal.

SPEAKER_01 56:47

That doesn't mean that that's what I want to do with my time. Okay. We're assuming that like because you're immortal, that you have drive to get it.

SPEAKER_03 56:54

Well, no, no, I was assuming that you're because this goes back to what you said, because I'm assuming we're all immortal now, and all we're doing is we're solving these long-term like you know, long-term problems or the curiosity that we have that we know is gonna take us billions of years to figure out, because that's all we have to live for, because there's no immediacy. If you're live immortal, I don't need to make my podcast in the next hour because I can do this anytime or whatever, right? So now you're so now we've gone past these little minute problems that we as regular humans experience. Now you're thinking greater. Now you're thinking, oh, this is built your timeline is much different. So now you're only solving things that are only going to literally take you billions of years to figure out. So that's where the that's where the mindset change comes. You know what I'm saying? Is that curiosity going to stay with you for billions of years because you know that's the time frame that you have to live within of the type of problems that you want to solve now?

SPEAKER_01 57:45

Yeah, yeah. Well, I agree with you on that. I think that it's the immortal, I don't think I want that for myself, like immortality.

SPEAKER_00 57:54

So you're arguing that our minds can change, or like you're saying, like, there's a chance that our minds would change so much that we wouldn't have the same curiosity.

SPEAKER_03 58:02

Yeah, I'm like thinking now psychologically, right?

SPEAKER_00 58:04

Even though now that we're mortal, but that almost sounds like progress in the way that you all are defining with like life and death. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:12

Well, I think that that would just break our psychology because we're not and then we're not humans anymore.

SPEAKER_00 58:18

Yeah, yeah. I don't think that matters as much. Not being human? I think that that is an arbitrary line that could be defined in a lot of different ways. What a human is? I mean, based on like if we start incorporating things like genetic engineering into like if you if you get somebody else's heart into you, I mean it, you know, or you let's say you get like a pig heart you know implanted into you.

SPEAKER_03 58:40

I think that's which we which we're doing.

SPEAKER_00 58:42

Yeah, we're doing that, right? Like that person is still a human, right? But they have a pig's heart. You know what I mean? So the line starts to get blurry, I think, as more and more parts of us become replaceable and engineerable.

SPEAKER_01 58:56

Well, I think that a physical component is a little bit different, more different than like a mental or a psychological component. Because I like the pig example. Let's say I replace your brain with a pig brain. Are you still a human? I would say no. I would say no, you're not.

SPEAKER_03 59:16

But but what if like now we know so much about neurology, right? There are obviously similarities within a pig's brains and ours, right? What if you now you you you replace the actual physical organ itself, but now you're able to tap into the neurologic the neurological components of that to be able to still give you the human skills that you need, the things that you still need to think like a human, it's just that the physical organ itself is not a human brain, it's a pig brain, but we just change it neurologically to make it do what we want it to do as humans to help us function task as humans. So we're physically we're still human, but we just have a different body part that we change the neurology of it to be able to give us the same functions.

SPEAKER_01 59:57

Well, yeah, I mean, if you're saying that we live in a world where you can take any brain of anything and make it identical to a human brain, then I would argue that you've created a human brain, which is human, but that's not-I mean, if you take a pig's heart and make it identical to a human's heart, then it's like basically the same thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:14

Yeah, but right now we're doing that because it has many similarities. That it's it's it's able to function. Yeah, it's able to do the function of a human heart, which is all it needs to do, is the function of a human heart.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:25

Functionally, I think that hearts of different animals maybe uh may have like a smaller delta than brains of different animals. And I think that it's a very different thing to say, like, oh, well, we could just swap your nervous system out with the nervous system of a pig, and then you'll be the same. But I do think that maybe like a pig, there's like less of a leap there with uh with But we do that technologically though, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:00:48

Like if if if I'm gonna have a brain to computer interface, right? It's not a human brain anymore. Now I have the power, I've now I have the power of a supercomputer. Yeah, but but but does that make you less human now? Because you have a supercomputer for a brain? That's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:03

I would say yes. But not in like a not in like a value way. But I think that that makes you less like a, you know, if you've been spliced with all these like biotic upgrades, I would say that yeah, that does make you are like physically changed.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:20

Now, now we're cyborgs.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:22

Right. Now we're cyborgs, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:01:23

Because we have them, we have a robotic arm, we have a supercomputer for a brain, we have a pig heart, we have whatever a rabbit.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:32

But like, does it matter if it's an augmentation or deficiency? So, for example, like a stroke victim would lose a significant percentage of their brain functionality. Probably let's say, for example, that they own like only half of their brain like lights up and has neurological activity. If you had like half of your brain replaced with AI, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:52

To make up for what you lost, right? So it's not, so it's not like okay, you didn't, you didn't, you you're you're not now some super genius and you're able to calculate algorithms or whatnot on your hair, but you just they just found a way to be able to make up for what you lost neurologically. Replace or whatever you want to do. Yeah, so now you're so now you're back to normal human level, but at the same time, I'm now I'm thinking from the cyborg effect. So now you have that to make up for your stroke that you lost, but you also have a pig heart because you need to get a heart replacement. But now I love the pig heart aspect, but now we can also regenerate limbs, right? And so you lost your leg in a car accident, but now you have a new leg because you're able to regrow it in a lab. So it's not your actual original leg, but now it's but now that person, that person is still a human, right? They're just made up of different components that we now use our technology and our biotechnology to be able to solve these problems that they had.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:45

So I think that I hear what you're saying, and I like agree with that argument, but I think that if we now had um textbooks and or like side that we're doing like taxonomic groups. I think that you have crossed a line where this is actually something different than what you would call a human. This is like something, whatever it is, and you're gonna call it a cyborg. What's the where's the line? Well, what's the line for anything? Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:09

That's what I'm saying. Is it does it become like, oh, how many parts of your body need to be replaced for you to not be human anymore?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:15

Which is a question we just so I guess the prompt was you're a human, you live in a society, you're starting a society of humans, and if your first response is I'm gonna make everybody cyborgs, then I would say that's just not human. But I don't think there's anything wrong with that. But I just don't I'm just saying that that's not human. Like if you psychologically being prepared to sit on a ship by yourself for a billion years to get somewhere, like that's not a human can't do that.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:42

So what is a cyborg? A human that's physically augmented by technology? I don't know. I would like uh uh that's a person with a pacemaker, cyborg. Yeah, you think well I don't I just yeah again, I think these lines are just really hard to define.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:53

Yeah, because at some point they become obvious to define. Like the line between the line between animals can be hard to define, but there is a line somewhere where it's obvious, like life. Things that are living are all genetically close to one another. But I think that we can look at a mushroom and a chimpanzee and we say, okay, the line may be arbitrary, but there's a line somewhere. Maybe it's like, oh, fungi, um, you know, I don't know the much about them, but they they have like these traits, and like chimpanzees have these traits.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:22

Well, I think it just becomes a slippery slope as technology be continues to innovate, right? Like I what I think of is the example with AI and the Turing test, and how it was like, oh, all these AI models are great, but like none of them can pass the Turing test, so none of them are even like close to being conscious like uh we are. And they blew past it. Then they blew past that a while back now. And like we're like, oh, well, that line is actually here. Yeah, it's really that movie keeping it. The Turing test wasn't that hard yet. Right. So I feel like that's what would happen inevitably if we augment ourselves, is that this line of what makes distinguishes a human from a non-human or cyborg or genetically enhanced, you know, I I think they're all just kind of like arbitrary things.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:57

Because everything I agree at some point, at some point, every could everything because this whole take now becomes a slippery slope, right? Because now if we are immortals, we're not we're not really human anymore. Yeah. Right? Because we've kind of lost what makes us human, which is life and death, right? Like at some point we're going to die, we're going to die and then evolve and could that could pass that gene on to our next generation. That's what makes us human.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:20

I would say that's what makes something living at all. Well, there's like life. This is a property of life.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:27

Well, there's like lobsters and jellyfish that are like there's never been a lobster that's lived forever. That's because of immortal jellyfish. You do have immortal jellyfish. There are those like uh a biologically immortal human could die too. Could still be killed.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:42

Yeah, but I'm just saying, like, there's not an example, like uh so you do somebody would have to show me the jellyfish that has lived forever.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:49

No, there there no no, there literally is an immortal. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:53

I hear what you're saying. Show me the one that has been alive for how old is the oldest one?

SPEAKER_03 1:05:58

Do they know? There's like a life cycle. It's like it's it's it's still it's still a life cycle. I don't know the deed, I'm I don't know the biology of this. I actually do, but I actually do.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:06

You do? Okay, good. So there's like the medusa phase, which is like what we know is a jellyfish, right? But um uh that's like the that's like one of the parts of the life cycle of the jellyfish. So how jellyfish are born is actually it's like a stack of polyps, which are like basically like tiny medusa, like little circles with like little, little like fingers sticking out, and they're all stacked on top of each other upside down. So there's really cool videos you can find on the internet of the polyps like from the top, like popping off of the stack and then becoming a little medusa. And then what I what I don't remember though is how the medusa uh reverts back into the polyp. I think at a certain point in its life cycle, it kind of like goes back into the ground or something like that, and then it like reverts into that stage.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:50

Okay, and so how long has the longest living one of those Well, I don't I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:54

I don't that's a good thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:55

All right, so that's a huge to me, that's like a very critical point to be able to make in me saying that they don't live forever. Because like, how long does that is there one that's been doing that for a hundred million years? Theoretically, no, no, no, practically, is there one that has really been doing that for that?

SPEAKER_03 1:07:10

But the thing is I don't know, we don't know enough about how that life cycle works to know where to know where it began, right? Because at some point we just discovered this, right? And so we can't date it back to know was we can we can give an age to other things, we can give an age to you know uh uh you know core reefs, we could give an age to a shark or whatever because we know okay, we can we can we can we can look at these traits, we can actually dive into his genes and see how long it's lived. We can't necessarily do that because we don't know what that starting point was.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:36

So what's the point of making the claim that it lived that they live forever?

SPEAKER_03 1:07:40

Because how because I think the only claim is 100% unsubstantiated. Because they're only claiming that because they know how this life cycle progresses, that it doesn't actually die, it just reverts back to this like polyp stage. So they don't reverse it. It's not but it's it's not like it's not I I don't know that I don't know enough of this to to to hopefully we get to he's he's diving into his back. I'm trying to fact check it, but it's it's taking a long time.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:02

Yeah, but we but we we know we know that it reverts. We know that it reverts. It doesn't sound like a fact-based conversation, right? If it takes a little time to figure out what the facts are, it doesn't mean the facts aren't there.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:14

Yeah, I I yeah, I did read I I didn't do a deep dive into the notes, but like I it I know that how this the study was done, it just knows that it reverts back to this polyp stage and that continues and repeats this cycle over and over again. It never changes. I'm not doubting that at all.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:28

What I'm doubting is one that's been alive for like I don't know how you would date that to be able to let it doubt.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:37

Kind of the same way that we extrapolate stuff about like the universe.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:41

It's not the same though. It's not the same.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:42

Well, so I well I I learned here about like exactly how it works. So the medusa of the species can be physically damaged or experiences stresses, stresses like starvation, uh, you know, where it's like running out of food, and instead of just keeling over and dying, it like shrinks down into a a like cyst version of itself and then settles onto the sea floor, at which point it develops into a new polyp. Okay, and then these things start butting up, and then the Medusa butt off of that, and then those Medusa when they experience stress.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:12

So, how is that the continuation of one thing? When humans get together, they produce a baby. It's a little polyp human, and that human carries on the genes from the individuals. So this is not the same thing as one life form dying or like reverting back to an infantile state and then coming back to life, I would argue, based on what you said.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:31

Yeah, I mean, but it it's almost like more effective than that.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:35

Well, that's fine.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:36

Yeah, it would be would it be uh what would be the human comparison of it though? Would it be us now, like I now I I food resources are low, whatever, some condition happens, and I now resort back to like an embryotic stage or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:53

Well, I think it would be basically you run out of food, so then you get into the fetal position on the ground, and then you split up into five main. I would get into a fetal position by the way. And they're I are they genetically identical. Genetically identical maynard fetuses that then start running away slowly as resources become more abundant. I've given this whole image of myself. So little polyps of myself that's around.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:15

I I to me that's different than what than what we were saying.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:20

Like biological immortality?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:21

Yeah, that's different.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:22

Because not because not because now because now that's a form of reproduction.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:26

Now, if you're creating you, yeah, I think lobsters are arguably more biologically immortal in that in the traditional sense of like they just don't die from unless they die from external causes.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:37

But they do. If they get too big, they die.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:38

Yeah, lobsters that at some point die.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:40

They grow, they they yeah, they get which is which is well like what I'm saying. Like a lobby.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:45

I I killed a lobster the other day, I ate one for I ate one for Thanksgiving. That lobster is gone. It's not it's not alive anymore. You ate lobster for Thanksgiving?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:52

Oh yeah, we had a seafood broil for Thanksgiving. Yeah, that actually might be a myth, like the biological immortality of lobsters. That is like a crazy. I'm not shocked that I was actually right about both of the points that I just think. The jellyfish thing, I don't know if if I I can I need it, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:06

We need we need that that's you need to bring uh uh that jellyfish expert covered here to expect explain because I would love to know more of the details of how that actually works and why that's different. Because I get what you're saying, and like how is that different than just reproduction, right? It's asexual reproduction, and you just continue to now regenerate and grow new things together. How do you know that that specific individual is the same from the beginning of whenever their species are?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:31

And I would be, I would like to accept that it was if there was like some way to like some evidence. There should be a way to prove it. Like you should be able to uh I don't know, like map uh we probably haven't mapped the genome of these jellyfish because that seems kind of pointless, uh, other than to answer this question. Yeah, but like I would if they were identical um copies, even then though, I don't know if I would say that that's the same thing because there are a lot of animals that are pre-produced that that have identical copies or whatever.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:56

Yeah, yeah. But that that doesn't make whatever that they just produce now that same organism. It's gonna be a good idea.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:02

Well, it's nice to uh nice to pull you over to the the critical thinking side.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:07

Yeah, well, he's still he's still an over a user, too. I I can always critical thinking.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:11

I said I was saying like every person that has an Android is also a critical thinker. And there are some critical thinkers that don't have Androids, but every single Android user is also a critical thinker.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:21

Yeah, yeah. I would disagree with that 100%.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:25

I I would kind of have I would have to do that. I can I could probably go through a line of people that have Androids that aren't a critical thinker whatsoever. I was saying that facetious thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:34

I don't trust people that much to think that they're not like I think something that Apple users kind of like they just completely disregard and probably just don't understand from ignorance is that most of the world uses Android. Like that's the most popular operating system in the world.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:49

So you're making like an argument from more from of commonality?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:52

Well, I think most Apple users make arguments of commonality. I think most Apple users don't care.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:57

I'm not even gonna go into the hate agent, but my my only beef that I get with with uh uh with uh iPhone users is kind of almost this willful ignorance to other things that exist. I meet so many people that see my phone, they're like, what? They look at it like it's like some what?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:13

Yeah, my phone.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:14

Oh my god, a phone that flips. Oh my god, what is it? What phone is that? Is that an Android? People look at it like it's like people look at it like it's some mystical technical Put your game away, man. That's a great phone. This amazing phone. I love this one. Everybody looks at it like, how are your pictures so your camera's so amazing? I'm like, I'm gonna be. Yeah, we've had that for a long time. But like, yeah, iPhone users will completely ignore the word. But it's like, but even for me as an Android user, like I'm very up to I know what's going on with iPhones. I know how iPhones work, I know how to operate an iPhone, I know kind of the timeline of iPhones and becoming. I'm very, if somebody can pull out iPhone and I don't look at it, like, oh my God, what what foreign device is that? You know what I'm saying? But every time somebody that doesn't have it out, like they look at this and they're like, oh my goodness, that exists? What about it's like, are you just living in your iPhone bubble? You don't know that there are other phones out here, other technology that exists.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:04

The indoctrinate them, keep them in the bubble.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:06

An interesting thing that I've noticed about Android users is they're hyper-vigilant about trying to find ways that they're superior to iPhone users. That's interesting because I feel the same way about it. I don't think so, bro. I don't care. This to me, this feels like a beef. You know, I've been in LA for uh SoCal for a while. It's like there's this beef between uh the Bay and like San Francisco, uh like NorCal and SoCal, but it's a beef that only the people in San Francisco care about. Like nobody in SoCal cares.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:34

There is no beef, is there is there a beef with SoCal in NorCal?

SPEAKER_01 1:14:38

Yeah, it's like people from they think it's so much better than Southern California. Like if you from California are you familiar with this? Yeah, okay. So from yeah, there's like I grew up like caring because I was from here, but when I went to Berkeley, everyone was like, fuck SoCal. Yeah, yeah. Oh wow.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:52

And that's like a real I could kind of see the other.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:55

And right now, Andy like Android is NorCal, and it seems like iPhone is SoCal. And it's like there's this imagined beef, and it's like, who cares?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:03

Yeah, iPhone's definitely Social C.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:04

Yeah, bro. You have a Game Boy you can make calls on.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:06

Like, that's pretty dope, bro. It's sick. No, I like Mario Kart. iPhone is definitely SoCal because it's all about aesthetics and a perception of like prestige that doesn't actually exist.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:15

And I and I and I could argue that if you're gonna go from that comparison, that the iPhone users don't care because they feel like there's such an elite, like I don't have to worry, I don't have no worries about what other things exist or what other other complications are around me because I'm not a part of it. I'm in my ecosystem and I'm stuck here. But makes it simple. Well it makes it simple, but it's also kind of you're also just stuck into your own world as well, too.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:38

Blissful ignorance. There's some people that like to be blissful ignorant, and then there's some critical thinkers, you know, that like to use Android.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:43

Some people like to uh apply their uh critical thinking, their creative thinking powers to anything besides what kind of phone they have. But if it's important for you to stand out as like superior, I do.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:55

It's only one soapbox outstand out. I have many soapboxes. I can stand on a lot of different boxes at different, I can stand on multiple boxes at the same time. I can argue this, and I could also have something else that I'm critically thinking about.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:07

But that's like that's a hallmark of an Android user. That's what I would say. Like iPhone users are usually more one-dimensional.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:13

Y'all just can't stop jerking each other off. And on that note, it's been great. Thank you for joining us. It's a good jerk off.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:25

I'll I'll admit though, it is a good jerk off. I'll take this jerk off anytime.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:28

Hold up.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:29

All right.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:30

Um, but no, I think it's uh it's about time. So appreciate having you, Maynard. As always. That's awesome. You want to let people know like where to follow you and stuff?

SPEAKER_03 1:16:39

Uh yeah, uh at hip hop science show is my platform um on all social channels. Uh some people might find my platform, Maynard's Wild World of Science. I do a lot of kids' content as well too on YouTube. Uh, so go check that out. Do you want to plug your hook? Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I do have uh I know I know you're here. You're on the show. I know you're I know you're joining me in the author world pretty soon, so I'm excited to see yours. But uh I actually got my yeah, okay. See, look at that. We out we out here doing the work. Uh so this is my upcoming book. It releases uh March 3rd of 2026, uh Zombie Spiders and Asteroid Blasters, 16 Incredible Ways Scientists Are Changing the World. Uh, super excited about this book. It's really kind of uh an embodiment of a lot of the content I already share on my social channels, which is kind of showcasing mind-blowing science and research that, you know, kind of it's kind of off-kilter, right? Not away from the norm, right? And kind of showcasing different unique career paths that people are undertaking. And so I interviewed 16 scientists that are doing really dope research in all areas from robotics to deep sea research and astrophysics and everything in between. Um, and it kind of shows the wonders of that uh research work and then also how it's being able to change the world. And it's all kind of narrated by myself in an animated character, you know, headphones and all, running through all these crazy science situations and breaking down dope facts. And so super excited about it, man. Yeah, I'll let you guys kind of run through it. But that just got my first physical copy of this and uh super hyped about it. I'm going on a book tour in March. Okay. So already mapping out dates. Um, I already got a bunch of museums, yeah, science centers already backing uh the tour. So I'm gonna be doing book signings all across the country. So maybe showing up at a school, classroom, and museum uh near you someday. So uh Zombie Spiders Attributa is available for pre-order right now at pretty much every platform. So yeah, man. Appreciate that.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:27

Definitely got a copy. Appreciate that, man. Yeah. Cool, cool. Um, and then you wanna jump into Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:34

Are we do we are we good on closing? Should we say something else? What do we use? Don't we use it?

SPEAKER_00 1:18:38

You guys don't have a cl you guys don't have a closeout yet, isn't it? We do have a closeout, actually. Uh we're gonna probably leave all this in. As always, everybody. Despite all the complications, despite the iPhone users, and uh of course the superiority of Android users, as always, stay curious. Peace.