Successful AF Pod
Successful AF is the podcast for high-achieving women who've checked all the boxes but still feel empty inside, exploring how to redefine success without sacrificing your sanity. Join host Jess West as she interviews women who've cracked the code on setting boundaries, ditching perfectionism, and building a life that's truly successful AF.
Successful AF Pod
Career Burnout to Business Success: Building Sustainable Growth Without Sacrifice - Charlotte Brown
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I'm Jess West, leadership and burnout coach for high achieving women. I help you redefine success without sacrificing your wellbeing. This is successful AF the podcast for people who've climbed all the ladders, ticked all the boxes, and still feel like success is a million miles away.
Speaker 4:Today I'm thrilled to be joined by Charlotte Brown, founder of Lacuna and someone whose definition of success has been shaped by some pretty significant life moments. Charlotte's journey from burnout to building her own business is a masterclass in intentionality. She spent nearly seven years at Proctor, a prop tech startup, one of only two women on the leadership team. Had two kids who are now three and five, and eventually realized she had more to offer than what she was doing. So she built Lacuna, bringing rigorous brand strategy to founders who need solid foundations for growth. What I love about Charlotte's story is her honesty about the work it takes to separate your identity from your job, to give yourself permission to rest and to build a life where excitement, not extent, validation is your success metric. She's someone who works until midnight when she's deep in a project, but also takes her kids to gymnastics at three 30 on a Monday without guilt. That is the kind of sustainable success we're here to talk about. Let's get into today's episode.
Speaker 2:Welcome Charlotte. Thanks so much for being here. Thank you for having me. It's lovely to be here. We're
Speaker:gonna drive straight in. Tell us your story. I started out post uni at a PR agency, so I worked in the digital team. I'd just moved back to London and at the same time, I'd just started dating my now husband. So I think it was a period of like a lot of change. And my journey up until then is that I just worked really hard at school, jumped through all the hoops. If I didn't get above 90% of something, I'd be incredibly disappointed. And so I was very much taking that into my working career. And alongside all of that, I was also in the process of being diagnosed with endometriosis, which had taken a very long time. Yeah. And so when it was finally diagnosed when I was 23, I was told that I should have children before I was 30. And that really shifted. How I thought about my career. So I resigned from that role and went into consultancy specifically with the reason of getting my salary up as high as possible to support a family in London. I guess I was really, really focused on the notion that I needed it to be financially worthwhile for me to go back to work. So yeah, I took a really kind of high travel, high hours role with big global clients in insurance tech, finance. It was really great, and then it was very consuming. About a year, year and a half in realized that I actually was finding it almost impossible to switch off. And I would just work all the time. I would wake up on the weekend, I would work in bed if I wasn't working. I felt like I was letting everyone down, if you like. And at one point. Adam, my husband said to me I think you're quite unwell and I'd really like to see you. And I, at the time was incredibly affronted that he was shattering my career dreams and, making this ridiculous assertion. But actually he really just could see the fact that I was essentially on my first, road to burnout and I didn't realize it. And so I actually, I did take it on board and I took a bit of a step back and I started looking for other roles, in startups. So my kind of dad has always worked in, he worked in consultancy and then went to a startup and he really loved it. So I thought, well, you know, I'll have a look. And I found a really great role. So it was the growth lead in a, prop tech company. And I think I was this eighth or ninth person in and really great, like, really liked the team, really liked what they were doing. And so I started that role and I loved it. Like I was learning really fast. I was surrounded by great people. I had quite a big remit and I was just really, really hands on, which is something that I'd missed from, consulting was that you always take it up to a point, but you are perhaps like less in the implementation and some of the day to day. And so that was amazing. And I stayed there for nearly seven years. I was one of two women on that leadership team for about six of them. Like also had my two kids who are now three and five. So that period of time, it's just a lot of, I think probably personal and professional growth. And then eventually I realized that that kind of wasn't working for me in the way that it had been and that I had more to offer than the stuff that I was doing at the time. And so I started my own business which. It's called Lacuna and it's about bringing this sort of rigor of brand strategy and that thinking and the pragmatism of actually running a marketing team and working with amazing founders and helping them build really, really solid foundations for growth. So that's where I am today.
Speaker 2:Amazing. There was something that occurred to me recently that I have been trying to prove myself for a really long time, but I also dunno who I'm trying to prove myself to. And I would just be curious to know if that resonates'cause I think, I dunno if it's just a as women thing or it's an as everyone thing, but it particularly with this high functioning, I must prove and, and carry on. It just sort of seems to be like it's. It's nonstop and actually stepping off that treadmill. And, and it sounds like Adam did you a huge favor, but I can imagine that must have been really challenging to hear when you're like, sorry, what? Yeah, this is Mike. How dare you. How
Speaker:dare you. Yeah. And it goes through such a, he is incredibly, supportive and we are very equal in our, in our marriage and in our raising of the kids is, we, we really try and quite intentionally do that. I think. I definitely felt the need to prove that I was clever and valuable, and that would mean, obsessing over every single full stop being on the end of a sentence in a presentation. And if something was a little bit off, I would feel like it was this huge kind of personal failure. But I think particularly in, in that consulting role, almost. The more work I did, the better feedback I got. And I made it so much of my identity to the point that getting anything other than brilliant feedback would really rock my sense of self. And so definitely I was absolutely trying to prove to everyone, particularly my parents and Ad anyone that I was. Really, really capable. And I wanted them just think that I was hardworking.
Speaker 2:That really resonates. It's funny that, we don't learn to separate our sense of self from work.'cause because you go through school and you do all the good things and you get the gold stars and then you get the a grades and you are taught that behaving well and getting good grades and, and doing well. And good feedback means you are a good person. And actually you have to intentionally separate that from who you are, but no one teaches you how to do that. And so it can be really challenging when you're like, huh, now I have to redefine exactly who I am as a person without it being what I do for my job. Fascinating. Yeah. And I think particularly,'cause at that
Speaker:point, if you join a grad scheme or you join a company, there's a lot of, introduce yourself, et cetera, and that. In a professional setting often is I did this and then I did this, and then I did this, and now I'm here. And you don't necessarily learn to present yourself as a whole person. It's, yeah. I completely, that's
Speaker 2:so interesting. I'd never thought about it like that, but it's a really good way of looking at it. Yeah. It's all we want to know is who you are when you are here with us.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker 2:Oh, oh. So much work to be done. Society. What does success mean to you now?
Speaker:Now I think it's really around control and freedom I think are quite closely linked for me, but the ability to decide who I work with and all of this comes with the caveat that like, of course. There are some projects that are, trickier than others or that I'd prefer to be working on over others. And I'm not saying that I will only accept something that is, absolutely a hundred percent blah, blah, because we all have financial realities, but like, it really is around doing work that I feel good about without sacrificing myself and. The kind of other layer to that is that if I sacrifice my own health and my own happiness, the then the way that I show up for my family isn't how I'd like it to be. And so I think that framing of it not being just about me and about there being a bigger picture has helped me to, to learn to look after myself better, which ultimately I do for me. But yeah, I think maybe that's, it's all part of the same self-sacrificing narrative, but if you actually think about the impact that me being poorly has on my kids, my friends, everyone else that helped me realize that actually it's not selfish and it's just the sensible, mature thing to do. I love that. I certainly very much internalized this notion that you could have it all. Like you could have the job, you can have the family, you can just work, work, work, work, work. And hey, Presto, you have kind of all of these tick boxes of a life. Every choice comes with consequences. And so I'm not gonna sit here and be like, I have the most balanced life because I don't like, I work until gone midnight sometimes. But I also take one of my kids to do gymnastics at three 30 on a Monday. And so I've created a balance that works for me where if I'm really deep in a project, I can't stop thinking about it. I wanna work on it and I will work. But also if I've got periods where I have a bit less on, I'll go for a walk and have a coffee, and there's no guilt and there's no feeling that I should be working because no one's gonna tell me to do that. Like I get to decide. And I think that I've never felt more successful than the ability to choose how I spend my time. And for the most part, really no one can tell me otherwise. Um, and I love that. That's
Speaker 2:amazing. And it also sounds like you've really intentionally built that life for yourself, right? Like that didn't just happen. You had to choose and probably make quite difficult decisions over and over and over again to get to that point, and I'm sure you still continue to have to make those challenging decisions.
Speaker:Yeah. Look, when someone wants a meeting at four o'clock on a Monday, the only thing I want to say is yes. And yet, I know that it is important for for my, child to ghost gymnastics because he has some sort of movement, not difficulties, but he needs to learn how to use his body, right? And so I want to create that space for him. To do that and that is so important to me. But obviously you are pulled in lots of different directions, but I think, yeah, like I've definitely not got projects because of it. I also typically don't work on a Friday and I spend that with my 3-year-old. I'm, there are times when I've had to kind of call in, call a bubble or like call in a baby system and be like, I just need you to take her for a few hours so that I can work. And it is a juggle. It means that I feel much calmer because I know that I have chosen how I'm spending my time. It's the balancing act that I think you're always constantly doing, but I think if you really take a step back and you're like, well, what is important to me and how can we make this work? Then you, I've started to be able to build a life that enables that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think what you also said, about this myth that we can and should have it all. I think we're sold and it, there's almost a notion I don't have kids so it's a bit different, but I think we are absolutely sold the dream of, I dunno if it's a dream or a nightmare, but you know, you should want to be doing it all. You should have a full-time job and have a side hustle and be the perfect mother and be cooking dinner. For your children from your vegetable patch outside every single night. And if you're not doing all of those things and you're not just failing, but you're a bad person, and I think we really need to move on from this insanity because A, it's not possible. But even if that was possible, then who you become as a human being is just an empty shell. Yeah.
Speaker:I also think there's different, um, these things flex up and down. So at currently. My husband and I are using a, um, essentially like a fresh meal delivery service for some of our dinners. And I say some, it's quite a few, like it's maybe five a week, but it, it massively removes this pressure'cause we know that we're gonna eat really well. And yet there's still this part of me that, that would judge myself and be like, oh, but like, you should be cooking. Should I, I'm bringing up two kids and I am building my own business and I'm trying to, I'm exercising and I'm looking after myself, and this is something that I can just outsource and it's cheaper for me to do that than it is to order delivery at eight 30 because I'm knackered. And so this is working, but it's, it's absolutely true. And you see all this stuff, like there's so much noise around kind of, what a good parent looks like, what a balanced plate looks like, and it goes on and on and on. But ultimately it doesn't have to be really complicated to be healthy. You know, I can stick some cucumber and peppers and whatever in front of my kids, and that is a snack. That's good enough. I can also give them a digestive biscuit and that's fine. Like, but it's this almost impossible standard where it's everything has to be perfect. Um, but yeah, I really, I like to think that teaching them about balance and about not kind of martyring yourself to societal expectations is a good thing. Um. So yeah,
Speaker 2:two very balanced, sensible individuals. Incoming. Great. We've touched on this, but how has your definition of success changed? I
Speaker:think in, at the beginning it was money and it was milestones, and so it was like getting a salary, getting a title. Proving myself as someone who's like really good on a team and does really great work. And then, so I got pregnant when I was 27, which was pretty young for my social circles in London. And I think that was a huge wake up call to me about how others perceive women and women having children and women's careers. And I suppose I definitely. Was told quite frequently that they, people were surprised that I was, was having, um, having kids so young because they thought I was someone who kind of cared about my career. Not in a, I don't mean that in a kind of, really, not like, it wasn't nasty. It was almost like, ha, like really? Wow. Still though, I know and like, you know, it's really well. Charted the impact that having a baby and having kids has on a woman's career. But I think it kind of forced me, it, it was very confronting and it forced me to really think about what success was for me. And you'll know, like I am no less ambitious. I'm probably more ambitious. I didn't take my foot off the gas I did. Get very, very sick in my pregnancy and I was hospitalized and I couldn't work. But then when I could work, I was really able to see what mattered and what didn't. And I felt like it, the level of, like personal growth and maturity that had come from having those experiences made me better at my job. And so I think that was probably for me, like probably that was the first point that I stepped off this like charted roadmap of success that had, I'd set out for myself of all of these hoops that I was gonna jump through. And it, it's been a period of time where I've had to do a lot of growth and I've had to do a lot of reflection and that's not always comfortable, but it's definitely. It's definitely changed how I think about success, and I think probably this will sound really backwards. A couple of months ago I was offered a full-time freelance role for a really significant amount of money. And I accepted it and I was really excited. And then during the kind of like finalization, I got a call. To tell me that my communication had been sluggish, a quote, and that it would need to change in our working relationship going forward. And so I did. I was quite stunned if I'm honest, and I took our entire chat history and I put it into chat GBT, and I was like, just tell me the response times, like very neutrally set out for me in a table so that I can see what's happened. And it won't surprise you to know that my response times have been quicker. That had been slower. And the time that I had taken a couple of days, sort of over a weekend was when we were negotiating the rate, which to me seemed that's never a quick fire discussion because you both need to reflect on kind of how this is gonna work for you. And so I, like, I'm not gonna lie, I, I cried and I was so disappointed because in that moment I just knew that I couldn't accept the role. And for me, saying no to that was a really powerful reminder of what success is for me.'cause I looked at it and I was like, yes, this would've have been a significant, I can't, it would've been a, a different kind of life that I could have lived, but at what cost? And it's like the cost would've come at my self-esteem. It would've come at. How I showed up for myself, how I show up for my family, the level of fun that I'm able to have. I wouldn't be able to take Seb to do gymnastics. I just wouldn't be able to do the things that make my life full. And yeah, so I, I felt really proud of the fact that I didn't go into this huge spiral about, ah, I'm so rubbish. I've been so sluggish. I've been this, I've been that, and I just thought. Well, this isn't for me then. That saying no to that was almost proof of the success. That I'm so happy in what I have that I don't wanna leave. That.
Speaker 2:And a really brave decision to make. Because it, it probably would've been quite easy to go, God, sorry. I like,'cause we tend to apologize. Oh, so, so sorry. It wasn't, someone stands on your foot. Sorry.
Speaker:Well, I did initially apologize in the conversation and then,
Speaker 2:well, I'm sure it
Speaker:took you by surprise. Right? You're like, sorry, what? I know. And that kind of a word as well. And I was just like, this just isn't, I'm not feeling this. And I think, but again, the ability to give yourself the space and I just sort of sat by myself for an hour in the shed and thought about it. And then went back in and I was like, just don't think this is gonna work. But yeah it felt really empowering and I know that me from seven, eight years ago would've done that role. Like I, there's no question that I would've done it, but not doing it is so much better for me.
Speaker 2:Amazing. Congratulations. Thanks. What challenges
Speaker:Have, you had to overcome? I think when I was thinking about this, I think there's a, an internal set of challenges and then there's the external sort of societal challenges and I suppose internally something very open about, but, I get quite anxious and so I. Take medication and I use exercise and nutrition as a way to keep myself really level. And that is definitely something that it's taken me, you know, many, many years to be o okay with and to not see as a weakness. And I think particularly anything around medication can feel like a bit of a personal failure, but I suppose one of. The biggest barriers that I've overcome is seeing it is something that actually makes me more powerful. So yeah, I guess that's the internal element of that. And then externally, I think working in property and in tech and as one of two women on leadership team that came with that came with challenges and particularly challenges around after I'd had. My kids. There were, I think there were times that I really shrank in rooms that on retrospect, yeah, I, I just I wish I could go back and do that again and show up differently, but it, I think the, um, the whole period of pregnancy and postpartum for me, like I was vulnerable. And I think sometimes in those spaces when you're going back to work or you are. You know, feeling absolutely rotten. It can be really challenging. And so I think I definitely have had to to really feel like I belong and to know that just because I'm not male and I don't communicate in a certain way, and I work in marketing, that doesn't make me any less than somebody who, you know, spends most of their time in Excel and all the rest of it. But I think. That definitely there's a bit of kind of me and how I feel about me, and there's also this, the system that you operate within. Um, and I think, I would love to say that everything is equal, but I, I just don't think that's true. I
Speaker 2:firstly, thank you for sharing about your struggles with anxiety as a fellow anxiety struggler. I do think it is a superpower, but it's not seen as that. And actually that medication is what helps level out and allows you to bring, the power that that gives you, I personally think anyway Yeah. To situations and actually manage it. And I think. A lot for me, a lot of my drive is from the anxiety and it's like, okay, that's why I'm good at what I do.'cause I care about stuff and I care too much sometimes. How it feels to be showing up in the workplace when you're pregnant, how it feels to be showing up in the workplace when you've had a child. It's not something I've ever experienced and I don't feel like many women have permission or feel that they have permission to talk about that. I think, sheryl Sandberg lean in like it, you know, I remember reading something and that she was like, even if you are pregnant, lean in all the way into, and like sometimes you, you don't have the energy or the whatever else is going on to do that. I guess like redefining your sense of self when you are in that space, I would imagine is a challenge.
Speaker:Yeah, I think so. One of the things that was really noticeable to me is that after I had my first baby, so I had him during COVID it kind of in that lockdown. And so when I went back to work after that maternity leave, it was the first time I'd gone on the tube in it a year. And it was, it was all very new. And so what I did was, I took a month where he was at nursery two days a week, and I just went and did nice stuff. I had my nails done. I, went to museums. I did stuff by myself to get used to just being me without him. But it was, it's very interesting when you have what, you know, I had a young baby, it's like, oh, like so good that you've got your nails done. And it's those kinds of this sort of. Construction that when you have a baby, somehow your needs just don't really matter or like it's such a luxury. No one would say to my husband, oh, it's so nice that you went to play football on a Thursday. And I think it, in taking that time, I basically just, um, I gave myself time to be a bit angry about that and it meant that when I went back into. The office, someone would say, how was your break? I was the first person on the team to have taken mat leave in that office. And so it, it just, there, there were certain things and I just remember being there like, it's not a break. It's much harder than being here. Like I just said it. And I think that really helped me to, um. To find my feet again, but without that time, which I don't think is that common to take, I'm not sure that I would've gone in with the same sort of like gumption that I did. I just had, I'd had enough. And I know, I think I probably ruffled some feathers because I just wasn't having it. There was a lot of praise for my husband and kind of him looking after the baby so that I could exercise and, you know, so I could have frivolous things like my nails done. But actually in order to show up in those spaces, I found that, having my nails done, something as simple as that it just made me feel. Better. But yeah, that kind of, um, I don't know, this notion that suddenly you should be really grateful to have any time by yourself or to have any time to look after you as if it's not something that is just fundamentally important. And that the kind of, if you have a shower, it's like, oh, like I can't have a shower. I just don't get time. And I'm like, I pop him on the floor in a baby bounce and he's absolutely fine. He's safe. He's safe. Yes. Like it's quite important he's safe for, to have a shower. But again, like I think consciously choosing to reject some of that is, is helpful because it makes, so I'm not gonna feel grateful for having a shower's basic human like, not basic human right, but like, I'm just not going to do that. That's not the level that we're gonna get to. But yeah, I think. I think going back to work is it's challenging for all sorts of reasons. The other thing that I also remember thinking this is absolutely wild, is you go back into the workplace and it's like, God, there's so much to catch up on. Don't worry if you feel like your brain's all over the place, like dah, dah, dah. It's like, really, actually this isn't that complicated. Have you tried looking after a child? Because there's a lot to think about there too. But this, this sort of and I know I understand the sentiment, but this notion that you haven't used your brain, it's like, well, I've listened to podcasts, I've read way more than I would do when I was working. I've chosen to do kind of more. Expansive stuff of my mind, as well as raise my child in
Speaker 2:a human alive. Yeah.
Speaker:Which is, which also does require some brain power. And I don't spend my whole day sitting there talking about breast pumps like, and I think it's it's really patronizing and it's not intended that way. And I think it comes from a really good place. It. Yeah. I didn't feel like my brain was working any less and
Speaker 2:yeah. Yeah, and I think also it's not just being able to show up for work. It's also like you being able to show up for your kids, for your partner, for yourself. And I, I think it's, when you said that it had this like visceral reaction that was just. Women are, it's the whole Handmaid's Tale thing. We are just a vessel to carry children and then to raise them and dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. And, we have moved on in society, but it's, and again, from what you've just described, it sounds like there's still some really insipid beliefs that are not really. As you say, like, I'm sure it's well-meaning, but why should you not get your nails done? Just because you had a child? Let's, okay,
Speaker:be like such a treat. Well, you know, yes, yes, it's nice. But also showing up professionally for many women requires a level of you can feel like you need to put effort into looking a certain way to look put together. And that is. That's not always fun. Some of this stuff is complicated and doing things that make you more confident in how you show up, whatever your views on whether women should or shouldn't need to feel like they, I did feel like I needed to look a certain way and show up a certain way and that really helped me. But it's so much bigger than that. And then you get people looking at and being like, oh, like she must have so much time. Or whatever the judgment is. And I think the ability to just be really comfortable with your own decisions. I think I really developed. A, a resilience and a level of comfort with my own choices. That professionally it did me quite a lot of favors, if I'm honest.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sounds like it.'cause you're just like, no, no, like this is all happening now, so this is how we're gonna play this game. Yeah. Yeah. Good. Amazing. And this actually leads on quite nicely'cause I was gonna ask you this earlier, but I knew it was coming. What advice would you give to
Speaker:your younger self? I think I used to tell myself a lot of stories that weren't true. So I would tell myself that, I was bad at maths or that I was bad at Excel. And the reality is that I was never bad at maths. I just would get higher marks in other subjects. The belief system that I built for myself was that I was like less than in certain areas, but actually I'm really commercially savvy. I can do a very complicated segmentation. I've got a really good grip on numbers and it wasn't until I started quite actively stopping myself from talking badly that I gained confidence. And so I really think it's that it's just believing that I could do stuff and that I was worthy. So I was thinking about this question and it was confronting, but I was thinking back to the things that I used to tell myself when I met my husband. So we were, we met when I was 17. We had like three friends of friends. We went on some nights out together. We were like Facebook mates. And then I went to uni. He was working in Bristol and we reconnected because I just had this fairly nasty breakup. Got Tinder as a bit of a fuck you and matched with Ad like a couple of days later. And at the time I was like, oh, like this might, like this is a joke. Like he definitely doesn't fancy me. He is way too good looking for me. He'll find someone better, blah, blah, blah. We've been together for now 10 years, but in that whole process, he never did anything that would have made me doubt him, but I just didn't believe him. And so I spent a really, really long time being very anxious. And doubting his feelings, even like to way after he proposed and I was still there like, but when's this all gonna go wrong? And I wasted so much energy feeling like I wasn't good enough. And one of the really, like really lovely things now is that, you know, we've got these two kids and we've got our daughter and she. Unsurprisingly, there's quite a lot of resemblance between me and her, and she is feisty and she is physically really strong, and she is like, she's a powerhouse. And I see the way that dad loves her and loves those things about her, and it makes me think like, oh, like maybe you did just love those things in me. But it's, it's almost in, in seeing it. One step removed from myself, I'm better able to understand me not in a self-centered way, but in a way where it's like, oh, like I really love my daughter and therefore I kind of get it. But I think that, you know, if I look back at that period of time, just what a waste of my time. Like I wish I'd. To just get out of my own head and stop these really unhelpful narratives and just enjoy my life a bit more. So yeah, that's how I, I really try when I am, you know, I'm worrying about something or having these doubts or whatever it is, I just think, come on, like, let's not do this. But yeah, that, that's the advice. It's just. To back yourself a bit more. And to trust. Trust the evidence rather than the thoughts.
Speaker 2:You really got me there. I nearly cried genu that the idea of like you falling in love with yourself through your daughter. Oh dear. Oh, that was just too beautiful for words. That was really lovely. I don't think it's uncommon though, whether it's a relationship or it's a job. I think many of us are just waiting for the other shoe to drop. Oh, something bad must happen because whatever, I don't deserve this. Actually, like when you look back and you're like, God, what a waste of energy. I
Speaker:could have been sleeping in that time. I know reading a book, not doing anything. I know. And it's all of that what the kind of the worrying particularly around any sort of social interaction where you are really, really thinking about something you said or dah, dah. And it's like, the other person does not care. You just don't need to worry about this. But I think the ability to hold yourself very kindly to account and just be like, this just isn't about you. Yeah. Like it's not, it does come from time and experience and having more life experience. Right. But I, I do think there's a lot of wasted emotion on things that are quite unimportant in the grand scheme of things, particularly for me.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I can resonate resonating hard. Then in that case, what permission do you want to give other people through your story? I
Speaker:think particularly for women that no, just saying no is absolutely fine and you don't need to apologize for it, and you don't have to soften it and you don't have to overexplain it. You can just say no. And I think when you do that. You tell yourself that this is okay? Yeah, I wish. That's what I really hope. I really hope that my kids will say no, obviously not to me, but no, but to me, but I just want them to have enough self-belief that they're good with that. Yeah, no is a full sentence. No is a full sentence. And you don't have to say sorry for that either. It can, and you can do it very kindly and very nicely, but yeah, I would love to see that. Lucky kids.
Speaker 2:Hey, this was gorgeous. Thank you. Are you ready for quick fire? Yes. Okay. One word to describe your current relationship with success.
Speaker:Mm. Peaceful. Ooh, Your
Speaker 2:non-negotiable boundary
Speaker:that protects you from burnout. Uh, it's the time between six and seven 30. So unless I've chosen to go and see friends or go to an event, I don't take calls and I won't work. And having that time out of noise, you know, the noise of Slack and teams and all the rest of it, I find. Makes me much more rested and much more present in everything.
Speaker 2:I'm assuming that's PM or am
Speaker:No, no. Pm Absolutely not. I will not get up. I will get up as late as humanly possible, six and seventh, because it is, it's a, it's the time that. I get with my kids and it's the time that they really need me and where they open up about something and where I can lie in their beds and maybe have a glass of wine or just be there. And I think it, even if I go on to work later and, I frequently do, but having that. Pocket time without feeling really pulled means that they feel calmer. I feel calmer, and then I can choose to do what I want with the rest of the evening. Yeah. I, I don't apply to clients in that time.
Speaker 2:Love it. Complete this. You have permission to charge more and do less. Yes. So good.
Speaker:I'm so sorry for it, but yeah. No. What does rest look like for you? I am someone who finds it difficult to rest, so my rest is typically quite active. So I do strength training and then I'll have a nice bath or I'll go out for drinks with some friends, or I like writing, so I'll do some writing, but it's, it's something that kind of occupies my brain, but in a healthy way. So I step out of my day to day, if you like.
Speaker 2:I think there's also like, we often don't think talk about active rest, but actually it's incredibly powerful and sitting on the sofa doom scrolling whilst watching TV is not restful for anyone. But you know, I think that's often what is associated when we say rest and actually there is loads of different types of rest and actually you will, everyone has permission to do their own, to have
Speaker:divine rest on their own terms. A hundred percent, especially like this will also sound nuts, but when I'm in a space that's tidy and I've, I've ti like I can find the process of putting stuff away quite a, quite a restful and restorative one. A hundred percent.
Speaker 2:I couldn't agree more.
Speaker:Yeah. And that, yeah. And doom scrolling is not like, doom scrolling makes you feel worse. It make it just, yeah. It's, it's again that kind of intentionality where you say. I could feel quite frustrated that there's toys absolutely everywhere and that I've stepped on some Lego, or I could or kind of, I can choose for this to be part of life and to kind of take the time to reset it. And you know, I say that like it's easy. It is obviously can be incredibly overwhelming and I find clutter and noise and all the rest of it really overstimulating. So when I. Pull that back. That is when it becomes restful for me.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. Completely agree. What do you wish more people knew about building a sustainable career? I think
Speaker:this is really cliche, but I think it's that you actually have to figure out what makes you happy. And that doesn't mean having all the answers and knowing exactly what you're gonna do.'cause I don't think anyone really knows that. I think we all sort of, muddle our way through. But you don't need to follow a societal, tick box definition of what success looks like. And I think that was definitely, it is something that you actively choose to do. And if you, I mean, I'm massively cynical, so if I take a step back and I look into some kind of corporate structures and all the rest of it, they are all structures. Sometimes they're a bit nuts and they're not particularly meaningful, and you can choose for that not to be important to you. And so I think it is, it is being quite like you just get to choose what this means for you. And I, I think it's very easy to get swept away in titles and salary and, this, that, and the other, that actually, if it makes you happy, that's what really matters. And it really doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, whether or not they think you're impressive or not. Like it matters what you think. And so I think if you can like, look yourself in the mirror and be, more or less kind of happy with what you're doing with how it makes you feel with, you know, your life as a whole of you as a whole being that sustainable and that's successful and it's not, you know, what someone said in your last quarterly review because that, yeah, obviously your feedback is great, but like I think it can be quite easy to give that a higher level of importance than actually how you feel about yourself. Completely agree. That's very hard.
Speaker 2:It's so hard it, but you said it earlier, it takes practice and it takes intentional practice to choose the thoughts that you're gonna keep.
Speaker:Yeah. And to treat yourself in the way that you would treat, a close friend or someone in your family that you love. So you're not gonna look at them and be like, well, you're a terrible person because Gary said that blah, blah, blah. Wasn't on time. It's ridiculous. So good. So true. But I think, yeah, I just, I really believe that accepting yourself as a human being and as a person is hard. But one of the most important things about sustainable career, essentially, because. Constantly trying to jump through every single hoop and getting a hundred out of a hundred and all the rest of it is not sustainable, and it probably doesn't last forever because that's dependent on many things that are outside of your control, but kind of how you feel about yourself, you can at least like
Speaker 2:work on, you know? Yeah. Control the controllables. Yeah. What success metric matters to you most right now? That's a good question.
Speaker:Um, I think it's feeling excited. So if I feel really excited about something, I know that I'm on the right track and I know that I'm doing work that I think is like interesting and that I'm having an impact and I feel energized. And that's not, yeah, that's not to say that doesn't sometimes crossover with like nerves about something or. Yeah, any of those other kind of, um, more complicated feelings, but that excitement means that I know that I'm doing something right.
Speaker 2:I love it.
Speaker:And finally, what makes you feel most successful as fuck? I think it is when someone I'm working with says to me like, that's exactly what we needed, but couldn't put into words or, you've really understood, blah. And so at that point where I'm like, yeah, I'm really good at my job. I'm crazy. Yes. Bravo. It's when it all and again, it is when someone says it, but it's also when I know that that's true and I think I have a bit more self-belief now. So if I've done a really good job of something, I know I've done a really good job of it. And it's that, it's all of that comes together and it's doing that in a context where I'm not burning myself out. And that is again, like quite an active process for me because my default is absolutely to burn myself out. Yeah, but being able to deliver really well and have a balanced life is that is success to me. I don't think it gets more successful than that. Amazing.
Speaker 2:Charlotte, thank you so much. Thank you. No guest has almost made me cry before. This is a first. Such a beautiful story. Oh. Um, thank you so much for your time. It's been absolutely glorious. It's been so good chatting to you.
Speaker 6:Thank you so much for listening today and a huge thank you to Charlotte for sharing her story with us. I love Charlotte's reframe around self-care and not being selfish. When you think about the impact that your wellbeing has on everyone around you and her point about societal definition, suc of success being just structures, sometimes a bit nuts. Not particularly meaningful, that really landed. You get to choose what matters to you. Charlotte's definition of success of as control and freedom, the ability to feel excited about her work while having a balanced life is something I think we can all aspire to. And her reminder that accepting yourself as a human being, treating yourself the way you treat a close friend is one of the most important things about building sustainable career. That's real wisdom right there.
Speaker 7:If you're a high achieving woman who's tired of burning out, to prove yourself I can help. I work with clients one-to-one and run workshops on sustainable success and leadership. You can find me at kalicoaching.co.uk uk or instagram at kalicoaching.co. Ready to redefine what success means for you. Let's talk. And finally, if this week's episode of Successful AF has resonated with you, I want to hear about it, drop me a line at successful AF pod@gmail.com. I am always looking for inspirational people to join me on the pod, so if you know someone who you think would be great, nominate them or yourself as successful AF pod@gmail.com. Also, please do like and subscribe. It really helps.