Successful AF Pod

Redefining Success: From Corporate Ladder to Life on Your Terms - Abi Schoenheimer

• Jesswest

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What does success really mean when you've climbed the ladder but still feel unfulfilled? In this raw and honest conversation, Jess West sits down with her friend of 15 years, Abi Schoenheimer, to explore the messy reality of redefining success in midlife.

Abi's career has been anything but linear—from Big Four consulting to investment banking, across continents from Sydney to London to South Africa. But her journey reveals a deeper truth: sometimes the hardest thing isn't moving forward, it's staying still and figuring things out.

In this episode, we discuss:

  • Why being the "outsider" became Abi's comfort zone across continents and careers
  • The two competing definitions of success and why letting go of conditioning is so hard
  • How your manager impacts your wellbeing as much as your therapist
  • Why Abi owns her failures but struggles to claim her wins
  • The "infinity fun loop" philosophy: having fun, taking a break, then returning to fun
  • Why bath time with her daughter is her current success metric—and why that's not "naff"
  • The difference between knowing you're successful and actually feeling it
  • First thought is conditioning, second thought is choice

Key quote: "Success is being in the driver's seat of life's trade-offs—making sure what's important to you at any given stage is reflected in how you've set up your life."

This episode is for anyone wrestling with imposter syndrome, struggling to own their achievements, or questioning whether the traditional definition of success is actually what they want.

Love this episode? Hit subscribe and leave us a review! And if you know someone who's redefining success on their own terms, nominate them at successfulafpod@gmail.com - we're always looking for incredible people to feature.

Connect with Jess:

Instagram: @kalicoaching.co

Website: www.kalicoaching.co.uk

Speaker:

I am Jess West, leadership and burnout coach for high achieving women. I help you redefine success without sacrificing your wellbeing. This is successful AF the podcast for people who've climbed all the ladders, ticked all the boxes, and still feel like success is a million miles away. Today I'm joined by someone very special, my friend Abi Shoenheimer, who I met nearly 15 years ago in Santiago Chile. Abi's story is one of constant movement and reinvention. Born in Sydney, she spent her life ping ponging between Australia and Europe, Amsterdam, London, and South Africa, which I know is not in Europe. From big four consulting to investment banking through COVID Lockdowns working in south a working south African hours as a night creature in Sydney. Those are her words! To navigating motherhood whilst completing a master's degree, Abi's career has been anything but linear. What makes Abi's journey so compelling is her honesty about the disconnect between knowing and feeling. She knows she's successful, but struggles to feel it. She owns her failures but can't quite claim her wins, and she's wrestling with two competing definitions of success, the one she was programmed with. Climb the ladder, get the title post on LinkedIn, and the one she's chosen for herself, being in the driver's seat of life's trade-offs. Through it all. Abi has learned that she is much less bothered about what she's doing and more concerned about who she's doing it with. And right now, her success metric isn't a corner office, it's getting home for bath time with her, almost 2-year-old daughter Lucienne. Let's get into today's episode.

Speaker 2:

Welcome to the podcast. Thank you. I'm very excited to be here.

Speaker:

I am very excited to have you here this morning. I was trying to work out how long we've known each other for and I think you will be the person I've known the longest'cause we met in 2010, right? So we are coming up to 15 years of friendship here. Whoa.

Speaker 3:

That is wild. Yeah. We met in Santiago, in Chile.

Speaker:

We did. Yeah. It's weird because I don't think we've ever actually lived in the same place despite having been friends. I lived in Santiago when you lived in Amsterdam, then you moved back to Sydney. I moved back to Birmingham then. I think you were in London when I was in Hong Kong. And then you moved, I think like we then tag teamed when I came back to London and you went back to Sydney.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. That feels just about right. It feels weird because I've only been to Santiago once, but it was with you and it was 15 years ago. Tell us your story. I was born in Sydney. Which is important because I have spent as discussed a lot of my life pinging back and forth between Sydney and Europe. Because, and you've been here and you, I think spent particularly glorious summer here. When we were in our sort of mid twenties, you know, this is objectively a great place to be. It's easy to live here. It's good to make money here. Life is good, weather is good, and on top of all that, it's where my friends and family are, but. It is a place that is at the arse end of nowhere. It's on the wrong side of the world from where I always felt the action was happening. And so I've always had a bit of a love hate relationship with it for that reason. And so as soon as I finished school, I. I chose a uni degree where I could spend a year abroad and I always wanted to study in Amsterdam, which I did. And then while I was in Amsterdam, I decided I was gonna move to London when I finished uni, which I did. Which is a very, I look back on it now and realize how privileged I was that I just decided. I will of course move to London and I'll figure it out and I'll find a job, which somehow I did. And I started with one of the big four. Consulting firms in London because that's what you did when you didn't know what to do in my family was you became a management consultant. And everything just really snowballed from there. I lived in London for a couple of years, came back to Sydney, moved over from consulting to working in one of the investment banks in Australia. Then decided I did wanna be in London, after all. Moved back to London decided I didn't wanna be in London, came back to Australia via South Africa. That's where I was when COVID hit. So I came back and then it was COVID times and then it was a lot of introspection and a lot of, what am I gonna do with myself? I think at that point that's when I started my masters and. Then I sort of had these quite grandiose notions at that point that I could do a fun job when I finished my Masters and that I had left the corporate world behind and I was no longer gonna be a slave to the Lenovo, and I was gonna be a MacBook girl from here on in. But it didn't quite happen like that. And I ended back in investment banking and then back in, consulting to large corporates. And I was doing all of that part-time.'cause at that point I had decided to have a kid and having a flexible job while I, was pregnant and then had a kid was very useful. And then. Maybe six months ago I transitioned back into a full-time corporate role, and now I have a corporate job, an almost 2-year-old and a master's degree. That gave me a brief amount of hope that life could be more.

Speaker:

It's

Speaker 3:

quite a sad story when

Speaker:

I tell it like that. No, right. We've got so much to dig into, firstly, like curious about the travel, right? So you are someone who has, I would say, travel in your bones. You are an adventurer, you are an explorer. What do you get from living abroad? Because you travel as well, right? But you choose to live, like you've lived in what, three, four different cont on three, four different continents. Like that's fairly unusual.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. It's a weird one, but I think that I like to be the outsider. I think that's where I've landed with trying to figure out what it is about why I enjoy being abroad and living abroad is because that is a position I think I relish is feeling like I'm looking at something from the outside in. I think maybe it's also just'cause I wanna be, you know, I'm so basic. Everything about me is very basic and so it's just the only way I think I can think to get edge, that I can be even like slightly edgy is to just at least be not from here. At least that's like a very basic way of differentiating myself. And I, I genuinely think that's why I struggle being back in Sydney so much is I feel I am straight down the line, straight in the middle of the middle of the average. And I don't think I like that feeling. Say more. I don't, I

Speaker 2:

don't like to fit in. Interesting. But what does fitting in mean?

Speaker 3:

I'm sure there's an argument that nobody fits in and that nobody's truly, normal or average or whatever it is. And we're all special in our own little ways, and I, I do believe that. But I think if I look at everything that I've done in my life, moving around geographically, but also moving around professionally, there was always something in me that. Just did better when I was on the outer edge of something. And so whether that was being at the outskirts of a corporate, pushing the boundaries of what is a staid professional attitude to corporate work or on the other end of things, when I did go out into the world of more. Boutique consulting was, I then reverted to being the corporate person there that was there to remind those folks, you don't understand what it's like in these corporates and what they're up against. So wherever I was, I played the part of the.

Speaker 2:

That person just sort of skulking around the boundary.

Speaker:

What I hear from that is that you take. Like whether it's pleasure or enjoyment or whatever, like your role is as the agitator. And I think that is true, both in a professional and a personal sense. You'll challenge me to see the world differently. You'll, encourage me to do different things. And I think, we technically weren't like we met through another friend, it wasn't like we were destined to be friends. Like we only really met for a week. And then I just think we had these mad conversations and then that just sort of kind of snowballed and so I don't necessarily see it as skulking. I think you just really enjoyed bringing a different perspective, but like as much as you say you're down the line, you do bring. Difference. Difference. But I'm interested to know how you feel about being described as a change maker. A change maker?

Speaker 3:

Yeah. That that's what we're going with. I don't know how we got from Boundary culker to change Maker. That's certainly a more flattering description. It's more perspective. I think. That. On the one hand I look, I think it's a valid characterization, sometimes, if I'm honest, I, I don't know if I do make change or if I'm just provoking. Other people to make change. I think that's one of the things that I really struggle with is that I am, I think quite good at poking at things for other people, but I think that I've done a pretty poor job of taking my own medicine. I think I'm always good for a thought provoking challenge. But I don't know if I do

Speaker 2:

make change myself. I mean, you've lived across the world,

Speaker 3:

I think it's funny, isn't it? And this is I something that everybody struggles with, but. I think like everybody, the things that I find easy, I don't. I, I don't tend to value them, and the things that I find really hard, I think are the important things in life. So for me, it's very easy to just pick up and move across the world. It seems to me sometimes the harder thing is to stay. And figure things out and tough it out. And so a lot of people have, think that I have resilience because I move around a lot and they think that must take some kind of resilience. But I think it's the opposite. I think it takes resilience to hang around.

Speaker:

Interesting. I don't just, I think they're both correct. Right. I think, but I think it's, it's an interesting perspective shift. You kind of vaguely gave us the outline of corporate banking, consultancy banking, blah, blah, blah, blah. Tell me what the thread was as you were going through was it just like, oh, this seems like an interesting role, I'm gonna do it, or was there like a, an intention behind the approach?

Speaker 3:

I thought you were gonna ask what was the thread between the jobs, and I was gonna say PowerPoint but was there intention? That's a very good question. The answer is. No, I, and I was talking about this to a friend recently because she's very strategic about how she thinks about her career and, taking advantage of this project or this training. And she's talking about launching a business in five or six years and is already thinking about what are the things that she can do within the current context of her job to get her there. And I was my. Brain was just melting at the thought of such strategic thinking. Because I tend to be very reactive. A lot of the moves were about moving myself physically and then just figuring out what I could do to be there. And then I think what I've learned is. That I'm much less bothered about what I'm doing and much more bothered about who I'm doing it with.

Speaker:

Yeah. Firstly, like I wish I was more like your friend with the strategic mindset. Like Jesus, that's, I just literally, I woke up this morning, I was like, oh, I'm gonna start a woman's group. Okay, cool. I'll do it today. Then and then someone messaged me and was I literally spoke to you yesterday. Why didn't you mention this? I was like, oh,'cause I just decided to do it this morning. Like my brain does not think in long term, but I am jealous of people who do. But you

Speaker 3:

also

Speaker:

have, you have an

Speaker 3:

execution focus, which is good.'cause at least you're doing something, even if it's short term, if it's all throwing stuff against the wall.

Speaker:

I'm like, let's see if this

Speaker 3:

works. I think those are two very different, but very valid ways of being successful is throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks, or just thinking really, really carefully about what you're about to peg at the wall and knowing that it will stick. Mm. I think I might land somewhere in between.

Speaker:

I do think it's very valid though, and it's definitely, as I like. Get older who I'm working with, rather than necessarily what I'm doing has become so much more important.

Speaker 3:

I think there's a part of it, which is in, in, certainly in my line of work, and I joked about PowerPoint before, but that is what I'm doing, i'm aligning boxes on slides for various projects. Some of them I do think have. Meaning and impact, but you have to really squint to see it and you have to really wanna believe it. And you can take a very cynical view of it, which is all to say what you do in my line of work is it's not inconsequential, but it. It's very easy for it to take a backseat to the experience that you have while you are doing it. Maybe two years ago, a study I read said that your wellbeing, is just as affected by your direct manager as by your therapist, so like the quality of the relationship that you have with your manager can be more detrimental or have more of a positive impact on your wellbeing than having a really good. Psychologist. And it's about on par with the quality of the relationship that you have with your spouse or partner. So I think it's crazy not to, we should be looking for bosses, not looking for

Speaker 2:

jobs, and that's huge.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, it is. And the other research, which I, I know is like kicking about LinkedIn all the time is the majority of people leave bosses not jobs. So it's kind of like, if you know you're gonna leave them, if you know they're the reason that's gonna drive you out, then that should be your number one criteria on the way in as well. I think we all know that and that is why probably the most meaningful work I have done is with frontline leaders.'Cause I think you can have a big impact there and trying to. Yeah, trying to get across to someone who works. I've done work for the NHS, for example, somebody who manages a team of nurses on the ward. You can have a huge impact there. Just getting them to think about self-awareness. And this idea that you know how when your boss is a good boss, you are in a good way. And when your boss is not a good boss, you are not, you are actually having that impact on the person below you and watching their sort of, heads explode as they have that revelation. I think that is probably some of the most powerful stuff that I've done now that I think of it. But it's really easy to get wrapped up in. Oh, but I also, you know, I facilitate executive level sessions and I'm doing all this strategic stuff at the top of the organization, and I do get a kick out of it. I get an intellectual boost out of it. I get an ego boost out. It's really hard to move those people.'Cause they've seen and heard it all before.

Speaker:

I think there's a few things but I wanna just follow that thread for a second. I like, I've been like in a similar place recently just thinking like, oh, like the world is burning Literally. What am I doing? Is what I do important? And then I think that can lead down a very dark place quite quickly if you're not careful.'cause you're just suddenly ah, like what's the point of it all? And I guess the conclusion I always come to, and maybe this is just like self mollification, but is it's the idea that I. Really only have the power to make my corner of the world a better place. And in doing that hope would hope that there's been a knock on effect at some point. It's the butterfly effect, isn't it? But I do take your point about, particularly when working with senior executives who are just like, Hmm, we've done the training. We've heard this before. But is there something in just. Changing one single person's mindset that, that can bring joy.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, definitely. And I think we spend a lot of time talking about needing a purpose. And I think that's fine. And to a degree, very. Helpful. Helping people to connect with something that's bigger than just what their actual day-to-day job is. But I think that this whole like search for purpose has also taken on a meaning of its own, and people are really looking for these grandiose. Narratives for themselves and looking to really find identity in their place in the world by what they do at work. But actually, I think to your point, so much of the impact that we can have is just in the micro moments with the people that we do. Touch. And I think that's a much more fertile hunting ground for purpose than needing something unitary.

Speaker 2:

Yeah,

Speaker:

It was something that I thought of when you were talking about leadership I don't think we're taught these things. I think we are like pre-programmed through society to assume that you will climb the ladder and you will just become, because that is the natural progression and that's the natural order of things. And then on the other side of that is people are good at what they do, and then they become more and more senior. And as they become more and more senior, they're then expected to lead people. But just because someone is an excellent surgeon, they might not be a great leader of people. Mm-hmm. And I think there's almost this like interesting situation where, do we decouple like skill and leadership? Because they technically are two different things. And I know leadership is a skill, but do you know what I mean?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, a hundred percent. And in highly technical industries, you see it at its most chronic. The, the NHS is a great example of it. I think in the corporate world, people have gotten slightly better, obviously in the very narrow skills of, I don't know if you're a developer or if you're an actuary or something like that, you still see it in those teams. But I think there's also a question about what good leadership is in today's age, because I think what used to be acceptable is no longer acceptable, so. Mm-hmm.

Speaker:

Yeah. I really wanna ask you what good leadership looks like in the age of ai, but I feel like that's not really the point of this podcast. And we will be here for ages, so I won't, but it's gonna throw it out there to anyone who wants to answer that question, let us know. Yeah. Yeah. That's a, that's a brain melter. What does success mean to you? Um, tell me about that face. What does that face mean? I know the recoil.

Speaker 3:

I do, you know what, I think I have two definitions of success. The one that I was programmed with, that quite frankly, I don't think I have completely let go of. Which would be very familiar to a lot of people. Climb the ladder, get the job title, post the stuff on LinkedIn about the job title and climbing the ladder, and all of that sort of thing. I think I have tried very hard to let go of that, and most importantly, to not let it guide my decisions. But it does feel like an albatross around my neck a lot of the time as I try and make my way in the world in alignment to what I actually have chosen to think of success as rather than been conditioned to think of success as. So I will just preface that with, I don't think that I've completely rid myself of all of the inbuilt. Nineties capitalist guilt of that we all grew up in. But I think my notion of success, and it's not really terribly romantic, although I do think there's space for romanticism within this framework, but it's premised on the fact that. Nothing is perfect. No city is perfect. No job is perfect. No life partner is perfect, and so life is a series of trade offs that you have to make. You're just balancing different priorities, and I think success is just being in the driver's seat of those decisions and making. You are making the trade offs, they're not being made for you. And so what is important to you at any given life stage is reflected in how you've set up your life and set up your career and things like that. So I suppose within that framework, if a sense of romance or if it feels like very important to you to have a deep sense of purpose, then success is, is following that model for me, when I was pregnant and when I was on mat leave, not that I was very good at taking mat leave. I feel like I was successful because I had set up my life in a way that allowed me to work as much as I wanted when I wanted and no more and no less.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. How did you manage that? By following the people.

Speaker 3:

That understood what that phase of life is like. And by trading some stuff off.

Speaker 4:

Yeah. Okay. There was a lot

Speaker 3:

I didn't get in those years. I didn't. I generally really like being part of a team, having an office to go to that sort of sense of belonging. Even if I am gonna skulk around the boundary. But I didn't have that for a couple of years because that felt as much as it is important to me, it was less important than the, I knew, for example, that if I was in a corporate role, then mat leave was going to be a case of basically, don't come back until you're ready to come back at least four days a week.

Speaker:

And I

Speaker 3:

knew that I was gonna wanna come back a lot earlier, but not four days a week. And so for me, that's where I put my focus. And it was, yeah, just by surrounding myself with the people that would get that and allow me to do that.

Speaker:

Yeah. So like a lot of intentionality.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. Probably for once in my life I was quite deliberate.

Speaker:

You talked about like the original definition of success and like where you are at now and probably, being middling between those. Was there a significant event or a realization that sort of. Change that for you? Or was it just as you get older you're like, God, different stuff matters now?

Speaker 3:

I think so. I think it's a series of micro events probably. I worked with a very senior executive once, a female senior executive, and she was going around to the different offices all over the world to meet the people that she led. She had, I think, 10,000 people in her down line or something. And I, I assume because she was a woman, she got a lot of questions about, how do you do it? How do you balance it? How do you have it all? And her answer was, I have a stay at home husband. And it was pretty grim as an answer. Very much respect the honesty, but I think it was just a series of those kinds of things and looking at the very senior women in a lot of the organizations I was in and thinking, I don't want your life actually.

Speaker:

Yeah. What was it in particular that you didn't want about it? Or was it just a culmination, what's the word of who they were or what they did?

Speaker 2:

I just think funnily enough, it didn't look like

Speaker 3:

they were having much fun. And I'm quite a hedonist. She's there for the fun. I'm a good time gal and I, so I think a part of it was just looking at that and thinking to myself, that doesn't really inspire, it doesn't spark joy, and I know that I think I've since. Like having a kid now and that sort of thing. I think, yeah, it's not fun. Quite frankly, this time of life is really not a particularly fun one, so I'm not judging them at all. And I think it's rotten and unfair that a lot of the men that I worked with were having a really great time, a really great time. And I don't know where their, partners were in all of this. I like to think their partners were off somewhere having a great time as well. But odds are they probably weren't. So yeah, I think I slowly realized that I didn't wanna be on that side of the equation.

Speaker:

I think, obviously we can't speak for anyone else, right? But I think there is like a general conception of Work really hard now, and then you can have fun later. But I, no we dunno that we get later.

Speaker 3:

I think this goes back to the whole thinking strategically about life. I, yeah. I'm not very good at deferred. What is it? Like deferred satisfaction or whatever it is. Delayed gratification. Yeah. Yeah. That one. But same,

Speaker:

same.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. Yeah. That's, that one makes more sense. And I think for me, one of the things I'm actually really glad about and my friends and I talk about it a lot is while we are in the trenches in this time of life, which as discussed is not the most rip Rollicking fun is, I'm glad that I left it all out on the field. In my sort of late twenties, early thirties, I gave it a nudge. All the

Speaker 2:

fun.

Speaker 3:

All the fun. I think I would be quite resentful. And I, I'm optimistic that the fun will come back. But I think have the fun now. And then have a break from the fun and then go back to the fun. That's, I think the broad, I think that's the broad pattern. I'm hoping that life is gonna take that I'm just like in that, like it's a little bit squeezed. I hope. It's like an infinity sign and I'm just like, I, I have to get from one side to the other.

Speaker:

Yeah. I like that. Great. Good. Yeah. Keep

Speaker 3:

me posted. It's like a, an infinity fun loop, but you do have to pass through the, like narrow neck to get to the other side.

Speaker:

Yeah. That's probably fair that if you look at life like, there tends to be like less fun points. So that's all hope. Yeah. The, I,

Speaker 3:

I'm, I'm definitely optimistic. I see a light at the end of the tunnel already. Great. This is good news.

Speaker:

There we go. It's gonna be okay. The, it's the fun will return. The fun will return. Um, what challenges have you had to overcome?

Speaker 3:

Just the run of the mill. Self-imposed

Speaker:

ones. Okay. Yeah. Say more about those. Just those standard ones.

Speaker 2:

I think. Oh, I don't even wanna say it because

Speaker 3:

it sounds so self-indulgent, mixed with self-flagellation. It's awful. But I think one of the things that I struggled with, and probably as you've heard of the last, I don't know if we've been recording for. 30 something minutes. Now I find it really difficult to own my success. Mm. I tend to put my success down to my environment, my the luck I've had being born into the place and time and family and city and whatever else. So I really only own my failures. And I feel undeserving of success really.

Speaker:

I mean, that's not a unique position. Like the number of people, women who I invite to be on this podcast, and they're like, but I'm not really successful. Yeah. I'm like. Okay. And I'll objectively they are yourself included. And I am curious and I get I'm the same, like I find it very hard to be like, I'm successful. What does success mean? Blah blah. We can go down the whole rabbit hole. But I guess is it fair that you own your failures and not your successes? Ah. I don't know whether it's fair, it's probably deeply unproductive. Yeah, but like you're not playing like you are quite a logical person. Oh yeah. Right. But then if you own the failures, surely the successes on the other side of the failures.

Speaker 3:

Yes. Logically. That is sound.

Speaker:

Hmm.

Speaker 3:

I think that therein lies the challenge that I'm constantly working to overcome. And I think even to your point, when you asked me to be on this podcast, I think I had the exact same. Reaction as probably a lot of people did. But I think sometimes you've just gotta step outside of yourself and treat yourself the way that you would treat a friend. Which is how I've chosen to think about it, which is that if a friend told me, an old friend has asked me to do this thing, but I feel. I would tell them to, wind their neck in and get on with it. So sometimes you've just gotta look

Speaker:

at it in that way. Well I appreciate you winding your neck in and going on with it.'cause others we wouldn't be here. Yeah, I think there's, it's a complicated relationship with success. And I do think redefining it for oneself helps that acceptance because you can say, no, I have achieved the parameters that I set for myself, for example. But I guess to your earlier point, is it all okay if you're having fun? Do you know what I mean? Does it matter if you're successful or not? If fun is the ultimate like measurement. Then

Speaker 3:

maybe that

Speaker:

works.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I think that's right. I think it's really hard to take the micro and macro view at the same time.'cause I really like having fun in the micro, but in the macro, I do wanna be successful as well, but I'm not very good. Again, it's the whole delayed gratification. Is that where we landed as the phrase? Yeah. But what drew you to the. The concept of success as where you wanted to focus this whole endeavor? Oh,

Speaker:

she's turning the microphone around. Good question. I think because for me, it's such a weird thing and I think chasing success, whatever that means, has led me into burnout more than once. And I wanted to lift the lid a little bit on what it actually means for people and just invite everyone to create their own version. Yeah, because I truly believe that there is not a one size fits all, and I think we are starting to see a world that does embrace a lot more diverse opinion, background people, bodies, shapes, sizes, all of this stuff. And I think why not also have a diverse definition of success because I. I just think it's unfair that we're all subscribing to the same thing.'cause it's just impossible that we're all gonna be the CEO in the corner office. That's not gonna happen. And so yeah, much opening that door. There's so much

Speaker 3:

to unlearn. Yeah, and I was talking to somebody about it recently and it feels exactly like. All the stuff we now have to unlearn about body image that we learned in the nineties. Mm-hmm. And it's so hard to let go of that stuff. Yeah. And having a little girl and honestly it means I have several thoughts a day that I cannot express out loud because I know they will be so detrimental to her, her self-esteem and, you know, comments I would make about myself. Yeah. And so having to really, really consciously unlearn that, but there's such parallel there, right? Because in the same way that not everybody's gonna be the CEO in the corner office. Obviously not everybody's built to be a supermodel or, have that, one very narrow definition of beauty either. But just like I can say that and on one level really believe it, it doesn't mean that when I look in the mirror I don't have a gut reaction. That is the that is the culmination of years of conditioning.

Speaker:

And does the, questioning the belief for Lucienne change who by the way is Abi's daughter?'cause otherwise that makes no sense, but I've just thrown in a random name. Um, is it celebrity? Yeah. She does it help you actually unlearn stuff or are you just like, oh, I just won't say that'cause I don't wanna pass that on?

Speaker 3:

I think that's the. Thing isn't it? Is what I'm trying to kind of live by is, you know that thing that does the rounds on social media? That's like your first thought is conditioning and your second thought is choice.

Speaker:

I've never heard this, but great. It's, I don't, I know if my attention

Speaker 3:

I'm, I dunno if I'm articulating it properly, but it's sort of, don't give yourself too much of a hard time for the first thought that you have. If it's unkind to yourself or to others. It's probably, a result of programming. But if you can. Continue to have that second thought, that's the choice that you're making. And I suppose I, I don't know if that second thought will ever truly become my first thought, but it still feels like a worthy thing to do, to continue to have the second one. And I'm much glader to have it as a second thought than not have it at all.

Speaker 2:

I really like that. Thanks. You're so welcome.

Speaker:

Very interested in this one. What advice would you give your younger self?

Speaker 3:

I've been thinking about this one and I just haven't got a very good answer, partly because I know that I wouldn't have taken it, and partly because I think it's all just the same shit. We all learn as we get older. Say it anyway. Well actually one that has been on my mind a lot lately is about not being in such a hurry to get to the next thing. Because I'm a very nostalgic person and I get very swept up in wistful thinking about the good old days. When I landed at Heathrow last year, which was the first time I'd been in the UK since before COVID. We were in, I was in a rental car driving out to the Cotswold, and at the time, I was literally on the M 25 and I was just weeping because I was seeing all these signs for like grim commuter towns. But I just hadn't seen in a really long time. But the nostalgia was literally like coming at me in waves and it's just such a symptom of how I live my life. Like, no, I don't need to cry overseeing the signs for Slough or whatever it is. That's very weird. But I think I'm what I'm trying to learn, and it's particularly now that. I have a kid. And so you go through all these phases and it's really easy to be like, I hate this phase. I want the next phase to come. But there is like a beauty in all of the phases. And so just like not to wish it away and not to try and speed through it. And again, to try to live your life like you're looking back on it.

Speaker 2:

I think, yeah. I like that.

Speaker:

Oh, it's almost like advice to your future self as well. That one.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, exactly. It's really, it's, it's transcending the time, space continuum, that bit of advice.

Speaker:

Yeah. What permission do you wanna give others through your story?

Speaker 2:

Wow. I think the permission

Speaker 3:

of knowing things, but not necessarily being able to feel them say more. I think you know so much of. Life is knowing something to be true. For example, knowing that objectively I am successful, but not feeling successful, or, when you go through a breakup knowing you'll be okay. Not feeling like you're going to be okay. And I know for a lot of people that frustration and that like weird blame spiral and guilt just makes any given struggle. You have worse. And so if there was somebody listening who was saying like, I know what you're saying is true, but it is deeply unhelpful to me in this moment. I would give that person permission to say, I don't need this in my

Speaker:

life right now. Yeah, I like that though, because I actually hadn't ever thought about it like that, and I wonder if there's like something in just like following the knowing even if you don't feel it. It's like the opposite of fake it till you make it.

Speaker 3:

Think that that's right, but I don't think I should be in a position to be giving anyone permission to do

Speaker:

anything. Let's, yeah. Okay. Well, we've just ho opened a whole other kind of worms there. But, I asked you to answer the question, I know I gave you permission. It's very, this

Speaker 3:

is what, this is what the Sulker does. It's like, I don't like the question. I think every question you've asked, I've maybe like cringe or rolled my eyes or done something, which is not a reflection of you as much as my inability to answer a very not simple question. They're not simple, but they are quite, straightforward.

Speaker:

Interesting. Well, in that case, let's see how you get on with the quick fire. Oh dear. You ready? Sure. One word to describe your current relationship with success. Ugh. Fractious your non-negotiable boundary that protects you from burnout. Fun.

Speaker 2:

Complete this. You're gonna hate this. You have permission to. Oh, get on the plane.

Speaker:

Yes. What does rest look like for you? getting on the plane? One thing you wish more people knew about Building a sustainable career.

Speaker 3:

I think it's the boss thing. Thinking carefully about the boss.

Speaker:

Yeah. Huge. The success metric that matters to you most right now?

Speaker 2:

Right now it's,

Speaker 3:

oh, it's so naff but it's just getting home for bath time.

Speaker:

That's not naff. It's quite naff. Stop it. It's cute. I feel like you've grown up so much, feel so proud. And finally, what makes you feel most successful as fuck?

Speaker 2:

I think it's that I am happy with my choices. I'm so happy. I'm so happy.

Speaker:

Thanks. I had a lovely time, and even though I could tell you were deeply unhappy with all of my questions, you did a great job of answering them. Thanks. Thanks. There's an awful lot in there, so thank you. Um, look,

Speaker 3:

it's an awful lot for me on a Friday night.

Speaker:

Yeah, now too far is your nighttime, you've done bath. Yeah. So I think I

Speaker 3:

might go and have a scotch contemplate my life. Notions of success and yeah, I mean that's enough to be getting God with really, for a Friday night, isn't it? That'll do. I think that'll do.

Speaker 5:

Thank you so much for listening today, and a huge thanks to Abi for her honesty and for winding her neck in to do this podcast. Despite her reservations, Abi's story really struck me particularly

Speaker:

her observation that we spend so much time looking for these grandiose narratives and trying to find identity through work, when actually the most meaningful impact we can have is in the micro moments with the people we touch. That's such a powerful reframe. I loved her definition of success, of being in the driver's seat of life's trade-offs, making sure what's important to you at any given stage is reflected in how you've set up your life, and her reminder that your wellbeing is just as affected by your direct manager as your therapist. That research is staggering, and exactly why we should be looking for bosses, not just jobs. The biggest takeaway for me, Abby's concept of the infinity fun loop. Have the fun, now take a break from the fun. When life demands it, then return to the fun. She's optimistic, the fun will come back, and I think that's a beautiful way to think about life seasons. Also, her reminder about the first thought being conditioning and the second thought being choice. That's wisdom I'm taking with me. Now, if you're a high achieving woman who's tired of burning out, to prove yourself I can help. I work with clients one-on-one and run workshops on sustainable success and leadership. You can find me at www.kalicoachingcoaching.co.uk, or on instagram@calicoaching.co. Ready to redefine what success means for you. Let's talk. And if this week's episode of Successful AF has resonated with you, I do want to hear about it. Drop me a line at successful AF pod@gmail.com. I'm always looking for inspirational people to join me on the pod, so if you know someone you think would be great, nominate them or yourself at successful af pod at gmail com. And as always, please do like and subscribe. It really does help and I appreciate you being here. See you next time.