Breaking Cultural Expectations: From the Singapore Dream to Strategy Consulting - Clara Ho

Clara Ho crossed international borders with a passport every day just to get to school. Six hours round trip on the worst days. She was raised on the "Singapore Dream"—five C's that defined success: cash, credit card, condo, country club, and car.

This episode of Successful AF is about what happens when you stop asking for permission.

Host Jess West sits down with Clara, now a strategy consultant at Roland Berger in Dubai, for a conversation about breaking cultural expectations and career transitions. From selling Louis Vuitton whilst studying pre-law, to becoming head of operations in Bangkok at 27, to taking a career sabbatical in Cambodia and Central America that horrified her grandmother—Clara's journey is about doing the hard things.

Clara's unflinching honesty about toxic conditioning hits hard. Being taught to suppress every feeling. The favouritism towards boys. The narrow success markers that left no room for being human. But she also shares how she unlearned it all through solo backpacking, therapy, and building the muscle of being different.

She redefined success entirely: breaking through self-imposed limitations whilst maintaining integrity. No permission needed.

Perfect for listeners navigating career pivots, cultural expectations, or anyone tired of asking permission to live their own life.

About Clara Ho

Clara Ho is a strategy consultant at Roland Berger in Dubai. Born in Malaysia, raised between Malaysia and Singapore, she studied law in Wales before pivoting into education and eventually strategy consulting. She spent a transformative year teaching at the Harpswell Foundation in Cambodia and learning Spanish in Central America before her career change into consulting, whilst her family questioned why she wasn't earning money.

Key Takeaways

1. Your body is wiser than your brain - Listen to every signal you've been taught to suppress
2. Success needs two pillars - Breaking self-imposed limitations AND doing it with integrity
3. You don't need permission - If you feel you do, ask whose voice is in your head
4. Do hard things constantly - Comfort breeds complacency; discomfort drives success
5. Face your fear gremlins daily - Even small, uncomfortable things count
6. Being different is a muscle - You build tolerance for being the odd one out

Reflection Questions

• Whose voice is in your head when you think you need permission?
• What cultural expectations are you carrying that don't belong to you?
• Are you honouring how far you've come, or only measuring where you think you should be?

Love this episode? Hit subscribe and leave us a review! And if you know someone who's redefining success on their own terms, nominate them at successfulafpod@gmail.com - we're always looking for incredible people to feature.

Connect with Jess:

Instagram: @kalicoaching.co

Website: www.kalicoaching.co.uk

Transcript

Speaker 0:00

Welcome to this week's episode of Successful af, the podcast for people who've climbed all the ladders, ticked all the boxes, and still feel like success is a million miles away. I'm Jess West, your host, leadership and burnout coach for high achieving women. I help you redefine success without sacrificing your wellbeing. Today I am thrilled to be joined by Clara Ho. A woman whose journey will make you question everything you've been told about success. Clara grew up crossing international borders with her passport every day just to get to school. A six hour round trip on the worst days she was taught that success meant achieving the Singapore Dream Cash credit card, condo, country club, and car, the five Cs. That defined an entire generation. But RA's story is about what happens when you start questioning those narrow definitions from selling Louis Vuitton bags while studying pre-law to becoming head of operations in Bangkok, to taking a year route to teaching Cambodia and backpack through Central America alone. Something almost unheard of for Asian women of her generation. Clara has consistently chosen the harder. And more authentic path. Now, a strategy consultant at Roland Berger in Dubai, Clara has completely redefined what success means. Not the material marker she was raised to pursue, but something far more profound. Breaking through self-imposed limitations whilst maintaining her integrity and doing it all without asking for anyone's permission. What I love about Clara's perspective is her unflinching honesty about toxic conditioning, especially the expectations placed on women. She talks about being taught to suppress every feeling in her body to keep going when exhausted, and how the women in her life reinforce the very systems that limited her. She also shares how she unlearnt all of that one uncomfortable conversation and solo trip at a time. This conversation touches on everything from gender roles and cultural expectations to why your body is wiser than your brain, why you should face your fair gremlins daily, and why success is actually inevitable if you are willing to do the hard things. Let's get into today's episode.

Speaker 2 2:00

And Clara, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for being here. Well, thank you for having me. Really happy to be here. Very excited about this. Very, very excited. Tell us your story.

Speaker 3 2:13

So I, I grew up in Malaysia, so I'm Malaysian. And my parents come from ak, which is the Borneo side of things. If we know Malaysia, split to two. Mom and dad, older brother and myself. So we're four. I was, uh, I had grandma and grandpa around, uh, growing up, growing up. I did this really funny thing where I took a school bus to Singapore, so I crossed the border with my passport every day for 10 days. So if you know the comedian Ronnie Chang, you know Ronnie Chang? No. Okay. Well, this is a phenomenon. So Border of Malaysia is like one kilometer away from Singapore. So kids in my, my generation, we didn't have international school, we had like three state schools. You know, it wasn't a lot of choice. Parents with us, a little bit more kind of ambition. They wanted their kids to have something better. They literally sent us across the border every day with our passports in yellow school buses. There were like f like hundreds of us doing this every day. And. I went to a country and then back to my country every day when I was growing up. Um, so that was pretty crazy. Wow. You guys crossed London, but I crossed, I crossed countries growing up. Yeah, that's a lot cooler. So, so yeah. So, you know, growing up in the border of Malaysia and studying in Singapore and coming home. That was kind of like my earliest social cultural references. And what I saw really deeply impacted me. I understood what it was to be a woman. I understood what jobs were, I understood what behavior was like all from my, my little Malaysian Singapore bubble. So that was me growing up. Then after high school I went to college. So I did something like pre-law in, in Kuala Lumpur. And because I was so broke, I also had a part-time job in Louis Vuitton. Um, I don't know how I got there, but like this church friend, I know, this church friend connected me and I was, before I knew it, I was like half in college and half like selling luxury bags, like on the, on the sales floor. So, so that was me in college in Kuala Lumpur. Big city. And then after that I went over to the uk, um, where I was in Wales, you know, and this was kind of my foray into the big international world, I guess the uk which you grew up in, but was brand new. For me, it was, I saw dogs on the street and then, you know, coming from a Muslim country, I was like, what dogs and trains and buses like this is. Crazy. So that was all new. I got to use my full vocabulary. I spoke really good English, but for some reason felt the need to fit my language into Glish, which is like Malaysian English or like s English. I've, I, I don't dunno if you've heard of it, Singapore, English. And for once I could, I could speak and it was really. I was funny in the uk I wasn't, I wasn't funny in Malaysia or Singapore, so I was like, you know, it was kind of a step towards, uh, you know, some form of actualization, self-actualization. When I was in the uk I kind of saw myself more, I was seen more, I felt more appreciated in the uk, um, and. So I did, I did law school then and, and that was a huge part of me discovering who I was and, and, um, appreciating more of, more of who I was. Then towards the end of law school, I decided, I don't think doing law is the thing for me, and I really wanted to be a consultant for some reason. Being a consultant really stood out. I failed all my consulting interviews. Like they kind of only did road shows in Oxford, Cambridge, and LSE, and I graduated from none of those schools, so got in but didn't make it through any of the interviews. Then got, my first job was in education, was in international student recruitment, so I did that. And by the tender age of 26 or 27, um, found myself in quite a senior role in, um, this company called Kaplan. And they said, Hey, we need a head of operations in Bangkok. Do you wanna go? And I'm like, Bangkok, yes, sign me in. So I moved from the UK to Bangkok. Um, and then after like six years of being in the education industry. I kind of, that itch of being a consultant was really just scratching at me and I was like, okay, I, I need to do this, but like, how, you know, and I had this really secure job and I had an apartment, like, you know, I had my friends and I'm just like, okay, then how do I leap from this to that? So, took a year out, did a bit of self-studying, learned finance and accounting online, on course Coursera. I did, uh, mentoring for like six months and then came back to Kuala Lumpur and really the first job that I saw on Deloitte was in strategy, and that was kind of in the area that I wanted to go in. And I was just like, okay let me go for it, I did that. The person who interviewed me in Deloitte really liked the fact that I kind of was slightly unconventional and, and took a roundabout way of getting there and not your typical MBA kind of B school business, school graduate. And yeah, so that was 2019 and since then I have moved from Deloitte. I did it. Bit of a step up to a strategy firm, so now enrolled in Bergo in the, in this German strategy consulting firm. And recently moved from the Singapore office to Dubai office. So got married, uh, in between last year. Husband kind of got a job in Doha, moved to Doha brief briefly, and then moved to Dubai after. But yeah, and here I am, so week one of my new job done. Um, and that's kind of my, my journey the past three and a

Speaker 2 8:54

half decades to get here. Thank you so much. I have so many questions, like, just notion of like having to take a passport to school for me and just as a child, not losing that is, is huge. And also I assume, because you said you were bust. Like there were other kids who were maybe from where you lived. So were all your friends therefore in Singapore or were they sort of going across the border with you and therefore you were able to hang out with'em at the weekends without again having to cross a border? We have friends from both,

Speaker 3 9:24

both sides of the causeway. We call it the causeway. So we had s, our Singaporean friends that we hung out with from Monday to Friday. And then we had our Malaysian friends that we, we spent our weekends with. I was really active in church as well, so I had my church friends as well. So you hung out with Malaysians on the weekends and then with both your class, your classmates from both nationalities from Mondays to Fridays, and there was such a critical mass of this. That, and we were, we were kind of all studying along the border, so we didn't really go to school in Singapore, like in the middle of Singapore. We kind of went to the border schools. So the border schools had a lot of Malaysian. So there were just so many of us, um, that we just had friends. And, but you know, it really speaks to. Asian parents and how far, how much they prioritize education above everything else, above fun, above sleep, above rest. That was their, top like they need to go to good school. And, um, that was how that manifested. But I think that spoke a lot to our parents' values and what they valued and what they didn't. Yeah.

Speaker 2 10:43

Huge. And I guess like for them sending you to Singapore would've been Absolutely. We're giving our chil our children the best start in life we possibly can. Best,

Speaker 3 10:54

I did the same. I did the same exams as you did Jess. So I did the GCSEs, I did the all levels. Wow. Because a feature of the Singapore system was that they were fully following the British. So I did the same. Yep. I did same exams. As you did that was the draw of studying in Singapore. Mm-hmm. That you did internationally recognized exams. And in Malaysia you didn't, you did state exams like you did. If I told you the names, you wouldn't even recognize them, the STPM and all that. So that was kind of why we were sent so far away to study. What was the like, how long did it take to get there Every day without traffic? I'd say 45 minutes with traffic. Just three hours. Wow. Yes. Yes, girl. Yes, I was, we

Speaker 2 11:52

were all very sleep deprived. Yeah. So you're basically doing a six hour round trip to go to school. In the worst of days. They weren't

Speaker 3 12:01

always like this, but in the worst

Speaker 2 12:03

of

Speaker 3 12:04

days. Yes. So it, it, it, now that I look back, that was crazy. Like I, I, I don't know if I do that again, but that was my life. Yeah, yeah,

Speaker 2 12:18

yeah. I guess as a kid as well, you don't know any different'cause your parents tell you to do something and you're like, okay, well everyone else seems to be doing it too. So that's what I'm doing. Yeah. But, you know, a,

Speaker 3 12:28

a big thing, Jess, is that we were all so tired. Like if you just think about it, just think about going back to, you know, back and forth four to six hours, and to an extremely grueling system. And being so tired by the end of that. And then on top of that, doing your piano lessons and your this lessons and your dance lessons on the weekend and then starting all over again. I think if I gave it at the most generous. Lens. It was in pursuit of better opportunities and better education in the most pessimistic lens. It taught me to suppress every feeling in my body. That I stress and fatigue and the feeling that I've had enough was not an option. It was not an option. And this was the same for all of us. You know, it wasn't just me. We were all part of our brains were kind of shut down a little bit and just if you feel fatigue, keep going. If you're tired, keep going. And that theme has carried on. Up until, my thirties, my twenties, where I thought a break was only justified when I had like a high fever or a break, was only justified when I was physically out of it. Where, whereas you're supposed to be taking a break two weeks before that, you know? Mm-hmm. Or pumping the brakes like a month before that. But I was taught the extreme to go the extreme lengths of the extreme limits in pursuit of what I wanted. Again, so positive, but so negative at the same time, you know? So, uh, that was, that was my most formative years.

Speaker 2 14:35

How did you unlearn the suppression of self? Because some people never unlearn that. Was there a moment when you were like, okay, this can't carry on? Or was it just a sort of gradual self-education and, you

Speaker 3 14:48

know, I'm still learning. Um, I, I don't think I fully, I fully picked it up, but I think when. I started being in relationships and then I, I started being with people not from my background, not from my system. Seeing how they dealt with stress and how they dealt with fatigue, and them looking at me thinking, is this girl crazy? And having that reflected back to me just kind of like. Perhaps this is not the right way of doing things, you know, um, where you take one sick leave every three years, like that's just a bit crazy, like, doesn't make sense, but so you kind of have yourself reflected back to you over the years and people just saying what's stopping you from taking a break? And you're like, oh, because, you know, I can still go on, I can still go on, but, mm-hmm. Then people are like telling you, actually no, like when you think you're coping, you're not, these balls are dropping and, and you can't see them'cause you're justifying them away. But they are, you know, you're, you're not stronger, you're not superman, you're not, you don't have special pills like helping you cope better. You, you just think that you can go further, but, but you might not actually be. Doing it, you know, so it's, it was kind of a slow process of, of people reflecting my behavior back to me and, and me realizing actually maybe I'm not coping. I think I am, but I'm not. And like to What levels of coping? Are you fully there? Are you just. A zombie. You know, where your energy's not there. Your heart's not there. Your mind's not there. But hey, you know, I've showered and I've pressed my clothes and I'm at work. So there are different levels of functioning. And when, when I, I thought I was still functioning, I was barely functioning. And I think that was, that was a learning and that was a realization for me. Huge.

Speaker 2 16:58

Yeah. Thank you for sharing. Welcome. I wanna touch on the year out you had, because you really quickly brushed over that. Oh yeah, no, I taught myself some stuff. I think it's a little bit more than that.'cause when we spoke you, you told me what you did. So let's, let's dig into that a little bit. Tell us what you did on that year out. So me, my

Speaker 3 17:17

one year in Central America? Yes. Yeah. So oof. It was, it was a great year. So I spent about. A year and two months out in total, like in, in terms of CV time, I was, that was what I spent out. So I spent my first six months, um, at the Harsdale Foundation. So there's, uh, there's a Cambodian Foundation founded by an MIT professor. He kind of set up dorms for. Very promising academically promising Cambodian girls. They would typically from the rice fields, uh, from very, um, disadvantaged backgrounds. And this foundation exists to remove the barriers to higher education. So a lot of people think, Cambodian women don't are poor, you know, or they're the financial reasons. But actually that's not true. A lot of tuition fees is very much affordable, but it's the cultural. Cultural obstacles where the parents don't think that you should be educated. And there aren't any student dorms. So you and I both stayed in a student dorm at some point. I assume they don't have that. They just have a school and then you figure out. How you wanna rent your, you know, so you have to go into the big, bad city. And these girls are from little towns and they gotta rent and they can't afford to rent. So that, that really is the barrier. So I went into the harps of foundation. I was teaching mentoring for six months. It was an amazing time, um, meeting these phenomenal women, inspiring women who also taught me lots in return. So I was in six, six months doing that. And then I went to Central America did a bit of a intermediate Spanish. I already spoke a bit of Spanish pushed myself outta my comfort zone did a bit more Spanish. And then in between was, um, figuring out how to pivot my career, you know, so people in the jobs that I wanted. Were giving me names of people I could call and I would call them and I would say, Hey, I wanna, I want your job. What do I need? And they were saying like, you need Excel. Fine. And then I would go on Coursera and I would pay 50 US dollars, whatever, and just do advanced Excel. And then next they said, oh, this guy says I need finance and accounting. So then I went on Coursera. I did finance and accounting, and I just just did that. Slowly, you know, whilst I was also kind of enjoying life and, you know, enjoying, uh, central America. Yeah. So by the time I was done, I kind of had a little bit more knowledge under my belt. Plus a lot of fun traveling, uh, central America brand new skill, skills, brand new language. And from the Harp Soul Foundation just had like sisters, like I don't have sisters, I don't have biological sisters, but I found like sisterhood. Um, and I'm still very much in touch with everyone I taught and I volunteered with. So, so I, that's how I spent my one year. Um, it was a very intentional year,

Speaker 2 20:33

an awful lot more than just doing a couple of courses on Coursera then. Yeah, you said that like, we, we have to come back here. Yeah. Okay. Amazing. Yes. Yes.

Speaker 3 20:48

So I mean, that was, that was just taking risks, right? And, and going out my comfort zone and, and just giving myself the best chance for success coming back into the real world.

Speaker 2 21:00

Yeah. Which is timely. Mm-hmm. So tell us what success means to you. I think there are

Speaker 3 21:06

two things. So if the first, the first part of success means redefining yourself. So have you heard of this guy called John C. Maxwell? He wrote a lot of leadership books and, um. A few self hot books. So John C. Maxwell, he calls it a SAP strata, S-A-P-S-T-R-A-T-A. It, it, it, it is kind of self-imposed limitations that we give ourselves that we think this is the best that we can do. So breaking through those self-imposed limitation is one side of success that I think is important for me. Two is doing it with some code of integrity and doing it with values that you are most aligned with, right? And in this first bucket, it could be objective success, like winning a prize or getting a hundred points like on your exam. But it doesn't need to be. So if I, if I look at. The cases of success for me, you can be a successful doctor, for example, can lead an amazing practice be growing every year. But have you heard of these doctors with like malpractice suits, like, um, fertility doctors that, that inseminated like 49 women in, in Netherlands. So you can be successful but not have, not do it in a very. Honest way. That's not success for me if you don't do it in the right way because you're, it's success at the expense of other people that, that can't be success. And success in the first column where you're passing through your SAP strata, where you're redefining yourself, there are different degrees to that, right? Like if, say you're a. Not everyone's a Nobel Prize winner. Not everyone can be. But we also really have to honor where we began. So if we start from really humble beginnings, then humble successes are huge, right? But if, you kind of, uh, had a very illustrious beginning, then building on that isn't a huge amount of growth either, you know? So I think we need, really need to honor where we began. How much growth it took for us to redefine ourselves. Um, so like a stay-at-home mom, for example, who's never worked in her life, reinventing herself, re-skilling and entering the workforce at like 45, I think is a huge, huge form of success. You know,'cause we, we really need to honor how far she's gone. So yeah, it's, it's those two things

Speaker 2 23:57

really for me. I absolutely love that. I've never heard anyone describe both sides. And the, I completely agree, the importance of the moralistic side is often overlooked, but equally as important. But I have never heard anyone put it quite so beautifully, so thank you very much.

Speaker 3 24:19

You are welcome. I mean, we see them all the time, Jess. Um, especially in this part of the world, people who have benefited from nepotism, probably not really right for the job, can't really do the job that they've been asked to do, but have somehow gotten really far in life. And then here you are slogging away. And wondering like, well, what's the cheat code there? And it's, and, and that's not to say, you know, networking is not honest. Networking is a form of honest, uh, an honest way of, of getting ahead. But for some people that is like a hundred percent of how they, how they navigate through lives. I three, I think two things have to be there. It can't just be, it can't just be one thing. Absolutely love it.

Speaker 2 25:06

Yeah. Yeah. Wow. We've been thinking about that one for a while. Has your definition of success changed?

Speaker 3 25:13

The idea of success has changed incredibly for me. Again, I grew up in Singapore. Have you ever heard of the Singapore Dream? I haven't. You haven't? Okay. Well, no. So growing up we were told that there are five C's. Five C's, the letter C to Singapore Dream. Okay. So the five C's, the Singapore dream is, let me see if I remember. Cash, credit card, condominium, country club. What is the last one? And one more, but it is a sign of success. That's the Singapore dream. Literally, you, you can ask Singaporean my age, older or slightly younger. That was the very first introduction of success to me. Wow. I know, and I, I, I know people, my peers as of today where that is their guiding. Light like that is their north star. Like they, they feel like they haven't made it in society if they, if they haven't gone on to, to collect these five Cs. So that, that was the starting point, which you can imagine is extremely narrow of what success is. Cuts out a lot of the population hugely. Hugely is material success and a huge form of social status. So that was my starting point, Jess. Wow. I mean, how,

Speaker 2 27:02

how you got from that to the beautiful pillars. How,

Speaker 3 27:11

I mean, something sounded really wrong to me, like listening to these, even as a child. Even as a child, I was like, no way. This is it. I mean, it helped that I had a bit of a religious background, you know where mm-hmm. Where, where, where I really, I went to church and Jesus was with. Prostitutes, you know, he hung out with the poorest of the poor and the sick. That balanced my little brain a little bit growing up. So it's just like, okay, I need to take a step back and I need to reevaluate what success is. Um, but yeah. And then. And then looking at the people who had these things and just asking myself like, are these people really successful to

Speaker 4 28:02

me?

Speaker 3 28:03

Is there any cost of them achieving this success? Did I like them as people? Like, um, and that's, that's how I began just reevaluating, success. And when I went to the uk, uh, and I told you kind of a lot of things changed for me. I, I kind of reevaluated things. I have to give the UK a lot of credit here because, I think Soci British society. Values, very much skills, knowledge. The area which, and I'm sure Singaporeans will hate me by now, but it's making, I'm like dissing their country. But, you know, it was a very much more balanced side of success. Even as students in Asia, we were memorizing things and it was more critical thinking here versus memorizing, you know, it was more leadership positions and external kind of, classes that gave you value as opposed to like just pure grades. People see people with great, just good grades and nothing else as a little bit unbalanced. So I think that kind of gave me a lot more perspective studying in the uk and then, being in the, you know, working world and, and seeing like, Hey, how about people who never went to university? Like, why am I so impressed by some of these people, you know? And they present so confidently. Some of them do really well financially, and you're like, Hey, like what makes them different? And then you ask yourself, where did these people come from? Like, what do they have? Um, and I think those things that I mentioned were, were really constant in the people that I met that ki didn't quite fit the formula of like going to good school and getting good grades and, and doing all those things. Um, so yeah, so those, those. That was kind of my, my journey towards really re-understanding what, like, what success is for me. So yeah, a huge, huge shift from the five Cs to, to what, what it is today. Yeah.

Speaker 2 30:13

Wow. And also to be open-minded enough to, you know, let that de that new definition in, because I think, you know. I dunno if you've read any Carol Dweck. The sort of the fixed mindset growth mindset thing and to be willing to go, okay, so like I was brought up and this is what I was told, and this is who all the people who I, who were my people until I was, let's say 18 when you left to go to university. And I assume that you said that like some of your peers, some, maybe even some of your friends still believe that. And to be to let the new knowledge in. Was there, is that just who you are? Jarring? Like you are very open-minded or, you know, how how did that sort of come about?

Speaker 3 30:55

That was jarring for me, Jess, uh, to, to say anything else. And now I'm older. I like, I'm used to it, but I remember growing up and feeling so different. Wow. I'll give you an example. I'll give you an example. I, one thing I picked up really quickly is backpacking. In from the uk backpacking. Now, have you noticed the Asian students don't backpack? Like they're not the solo travelers. Think about you. Think about that. You think about that like as in as in the Asian students that came from Asian. Not, not the British. Not the British Asians, like the ones that you know flew from very far away. Do you remember them ever backpacking alone? No. No. Think about it. So I was, I picked that up really quickly. I really enjoyed it. And I remember going my, I asking, asking my brother for a lift to the airport. So I had my huge backpack, I had a, a full itinerary to, to Vietnam planned. Amazing. And my brother drove me to the airport and he's like, so where you going? And I'm like, to Vietnam. And he's like, with whom? And I'm like. No one. And he's like, but why? And he just like solo backpacking, solo traveling. Just was like, what are you doing? Why are you doing it? That's so weird. But then having to sit in the car and then explaining to my brother. It's really okay to go yourself and you can meet friends, you can learn things. You know, you, you can really enjoy solo traveling, but to him, that was such a strange thing. He was like, you never go along you, but, but it's this, it's this conditioning. Right. That, that you were mentioning where your people are telling you that like, this is it, and you're, you are the little odd one out and who's like, no, I wanna be different. You know, and, and then feeling like you gotta explain yourself a lot. Like just, yeah. And like there, there's nothing easy about that just doesn't get. It gets easier after, after people leave you alone.'cause they like, they know you're just like the oddball, but, but like, like, oh, that, there she goes again. Her, her other solo trip. But yeah, I mean, then, then it's a muscle, right? Like being different. Then you just, you just keep doing it and then you're just like, right, I'll just keep being different And, um. And then over time you get so, so used to explaining how different you are that it doesn't feel odd anymore. And like over time, hopefully like people respect that, you know, but starting out it's, it's never easy to explain like, why the hell are you doing something when, which no one else ever does. But I dunno,

Speaker 2 34:07

what do. I really love the, the muscle of being different. I completely agree with you. There is something in, just like the first time you do something that's like different to the norm, it's, it feels shocking for everyone around you and you almost have to let them go through the change curve to see you in a different light. It's sort of, they, they still have to go through the change curve, I think, for the next few times and you're like, oh no, I'm gonna do this other thing That seems insane to you. It kind of, I know you've talked a lot about values as we've been talking and I think often when you do choose a different path, you challenge people's values and, and they sort of are then almost questioning themselves. Obviously not outwardly, but whether or not, at least this is the way to tell myself, I dunno if this is correct, but whether or not they have made the right decisions. And I think often when I get a really big reaction to something that I've done mm-hmm. That someone's like, why have you done like that? And this hasn't happened in years, but. It's almost like, I remember when we first spoke, I said like, I, when I originally muted or muted the idea of taking a sabbatical to my boss at the time, and he was like, don't do that. That's a terrible idea. You know, you'll, you'll destroy your career, dah, dah, dah. And this was, long before where I am now. And I was like, oh, okay. Like I shouldn't do that then. And actually I think it's probably just that he never got. He either wasn't brave enough or he never got the opportunity to take a sabbatical, so it was never something that was on his radar. And I think it's absolute, it's almost like you have to kind of keep, you've said it, like keep using that muscle, keep expanding, and then eventually the people who are gonna accept you are just gonna be like, okay, well that's just who she is. Or they're gonna go and you'll be like, okay, well you weren't helpful to me anyway, so actually you not being in my immediate stratosphere is, is good for me.

Speaker 3 35:57

Yeah. And, you know, taking a sabbatical is, is the most un Asian thing that I've done. Uh, oh my gosh. I'm explaining that to my grandmother. Was, was just, uh, like, what are you not gonna work for a year? You're not gonna earn money for a year. But yeah, I mean, what are the options? Never doing what you wanna do and then resenting yourself after like. Somehow that's worse for me than, you know, explaining myself to people who might not appreciate what I have to say, who might not have the same kind of worldview. I prefer that than going home at night, and there's just feeling like I'm just muting myself. I'm just suppressing what I feel and what I think, like somehow that feels worse. So it's, yeah.

Speaker 2 36:52

Yeah, it's, it's much easier. It's actually not easier, but it's, it's much better to disappoint other people and to disappoint yourself. But often that is not the easy route.

Speaker 3 37:02

It is. It is not. It is not. And I talk about the five Cs, which is how the ex, you know, the community defined success. For me, what we haven't really double clicked on is. The female side of things, the kind of what success is for a female. Is a whole other, is a whole other thing, right? So we're told, we're told by. And, and so I have to deal with the five Cs. Okay. That's like baseline. And then I get pulled aside by like my grandmother and my mother, you know, and I'm told then privately when my brother's not part of this conversation privately that I need to get married. And they've decided. To whom it is, like it has to be from church older than you. Ideally you meet him in university, um, you have kids by 30. Like, you know, there's this implicit or explicit or, kind of framing of what I then need to be as a woman to be successful. And I hated that. Just yeah. I didn't realize I carried so much baggage, like from my, my grandmother and like my ancestors out of like who I needed to be and like what a woman was. And and like the shedding of that was really the most liberating thing that I've ever felt because. I don't wanna be defined by my relationship status. I don't want to be defined by what my reproductive organs can do. I don't wanna be defined by my external looks. Like, especially Asian women, like, you know, as if pale and fair and they go for skin lightening. Like they, they sell a lot products to lighten your skin. You can be pale and fair skin long, beautiful hair and slim figure and like all these things and. And even if they're not told to you specifically, they're told to you implicitly because. You come home from university and the first thing my grandmother says is like, A, you've put on weight and B, have you found a, a boyfriend yet? You know, so implicitly you pick up what their expectations are. Um, yeah, and I am, we are as women so much more than that. I am so much more than what my uterus can do. Like I am in a boardroom every day. I am creating value to organizations every day. Stop looking at my uterus and like what my uterus produced because I am a lot more than that. But again, that's something. Even today, like every day I think we're, we're, we're really fighting against. I can come from a more Asian perspective where I think we're behind the Europeans a little bit. Um, but that's success as a woman, all the things that are outta control, are. Pillars of success, and that's nonsense.

Speaker 2 40:40

That is crazy. I completely agree. Obviously it's, I haven't lived in Asia for a long time, so it's difficult for me to say whether or not we're ahead, but I don't necessarily think we are in Europe. I think almost it's more insidious here, like whereas it might be more explicit in Asia. I think there is definitely still, like, I'm in my mid thirties, most of my friends are having babies that there is like, you know, a definite sort of like, and great for them. I'm really happy for them. But I think there is this sort of expectation that you should be having kids and there's the whole like, like is it like if you're not, if you've not had kids by 35, then it's, you've left it too late and all of this stuff, and I don't think any of that is. I dunno, like, I don't know the science behind it, but is that scientifically correct? Probably not, but it's almost just like there's constant like barriers and I think we are seeing things changing. We are seeing maternity leaves improving. We're also seeing partner leave improving, which is really, really important. And there's some amazing people and movements who are doing great things to try and bring the parity of experience up. I think we still have an awful long way to go, particularly when we look at the gender pay gap because, you know, it's still, it's still a problem and you know, until we start. Acknowledging that, one partner has to take a step back from their career. Yeah. To have children. Like it's, it's you. This whole notion of like, you can have it all. You cannot have it all. And you know, stop telling women that they should want it all and they failed if they haven't got it all. Whatever it all is, which we normally assume means like, you know, being. Some sort of executive and having 2.4 kids and a Volvo and a house and also being thin and yes, it's exhausting

Speaker 3 42:31

and you know, it's not just us it's the men too. The men who want be helpful are allies in. There was this, uh, program in Singapore that followed this stay at home dad. In Singapore, and he said that the older ladies in his apartment block would come down and ask him what business he had being in the playground with kids at 2:00 PM or 3:00 PM on a Wednesday. You know, like, shouldn't his wife be there? Like, you know, why is it him? And, and it was, his wife was working obviously, and he was a stay at home dad, but like, they couldn't understand it and they made him feel really bad. And amongst their peers, they also you know, not every guy is gonna say like, whoa, well done. Like, you are staying home and your, your wife is at work and, and you're the one slacking at home and you know, you're not being a man. They get it too, so it's really folding in everyone into this conversation that, what are gender norms and what, what are the structural insidious things like you're saying that are enforcing. These gender norms. And how can we kind of tackle that together? And, and there are guys who wanna be part of the feminist movement and they want their wives to, to have the primary career, not the secondary one in the house. How do we help them as well? So, so there's this conditioning, both sides. Both sides of the mm-hmm. Men and women. So yeah, we are just, everyone's telling us, Jess, like what it is to be successful and what it is to be normal and what it is to be valuable. And, and I think we really need to reevaluate why why we're told what we're told. And, and, uh, it's amazing that you're, you're having this podcast, that kind of challenges. A lot of toxic conditioning that all of us have gone through and just really taking a step back and just re-looking everything we've been told and just saying like, why, what is that creating for us? What has to

Speaker 2 44:56

change? So true. And you're right, like it's, it's not it's every gender, no one's, you know, having the best time. So like, it does feel like a real. Or rather, we're on the cusp of revolution. Mm-hmm. With the right people who are willing to carry that torch. There's still a lot of resistance out there. Yeah. We've got some people in power who don't want that to change across the world, but Yeah.

Speaker 3 45:24

No, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. But that's why just kind of your podcast and just. Adding a few more voices to shed a light to this and discuss this a bit more openly. I think we just need more of these things.'Cause yeah, I, I think it would do us a lot of good if we evolved in the right way. In the right direction. Yeah.

Speaker 2 45:50

Yeah. So thank you. Thanks. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for having the conversation with me. Now, I think we've touched on a lot of these, but are there any other barriers that you've had to overcome to get to where you are now?

Speaker 3 46:02

I, I think the biggest barrier was just toxic conditioning, toxic programming. Yeah. Um, Jess, I, I think we all, I'm very grateful. I grew up with wanting nothing, had enough food on the table. I didn't grow up in a warton country. You know, I had everything that I wanted. I went on vacations, so I had all kind of the materialistic comforts, um, growing up. So I, I think for me it was a, a lot of, a lot of. Conditioning that I had to overcome. If I had to bring up one or two examples of, especially from a, an Asian point of view, I think was the very first one where I had a brother and I was made to feel like boys were more valuable than girls. So huge in kind of Asian culture. Boys are somehow more esteemed, more valued as human beings. I have no clue why. And the most annoying thing is that the people that enforce things like this or that kind of reinforce it are the women. Jess, yes. Are the women. The women do it to the women. So my brother, my father never told me who I was or what I wanted to be. I had full control. They were like, you be you, we support you, you do anything. It was the women who showed favoritism, who not, gave me demerit points for like being different, you know, or, or showed. You know, bias. Mm-hmm. Um, so, so number one, one thing to overcome was this kind of favoritism or bias or whatever you call it, towards guys, the first thing. And then, oh gosh. I think are just Asian values that are very narrow. That are grades funny. And if you straight outside that mold, somehow you weren't doing the right thing. And just breaking away from, from some. Toxic conditioning, I think were the biggest barriers. And that's books, and that's exposure and that's therapy. And that's like so many things. But yeah. But it's, it's just all up here for us, isn't

Speaker 2 48:47

it? Yeah. And you know, it's, it's that whole sameness, right? And, and the willing to be the odd one out and say, I don't believe that. And you know that that's. A big weight to carry, especially as a young person. And so to have the conviction to sort of keep carrying those beliefs,'cause it's exhausting yeah. Is incredibly admirable.

Speaker 3 49:09

Yeah. And I think, uh, we, we should all strive to, to be the most authentic selves, uh, you know, like our own selves. And if, and that then involves listening to who you are. And just acting on that. And like I told you, Jess, like growing up, I was, I was told to suppress all of that. So it's just learning to like re-listen to myself and like understand what my body's telling me and like these itches that I told you. I think we, we spoke about this before, like our bodies are much wiser than our brains. So somehow we, we kind of have all the answers that we need in our own bodies. We just kind of need to tune out the noise and just listen to that. And somehow listening to myself was a challenge growing up. So re-listening to my body and, and what hurts and what is enjoyable is, is somehow a brand new set of skills that I'm also just trying to pick up,

Speaker 2 50:13

amazing. Yeah. Tell me what advice you'd give to your younger self.

Speaker 3 50:20

Oh I think I'd say two things. One, like really listen to yourself. Tune out the noise. Listen to every pain, every bit of joy. Everything your body, your intuition is trying to tell you, like, pay attention to that. Like your body isn't gonna give you answers, but like, respecting what you hear is like step number one. And then like what you do after is really up to you. But like number one is just really listen to yourself. And then number two is to like always do hard things. Yeah, just I think comfort and breeds complacency and um, stepping out of your comfort zone is like, I think the biggest driver of success. Yeah. Do hard things all the time. I, I wish I did more harder things, but. I

Speaker 2 51:16

mean, it sounds like you've done quite a few. I think, you know, you are up there with the hard things tally.

Speaker 3 51:22

Yeah. Do more hard things. I think the scaries, something feels I need to learn to not run away when I feel that, that I should try and all face, that really got

Speaker 2 51:35

me.

Speaker 3 51:36

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. What, what, what? Got you.

Speaker 2 51:43

Running away from confusing. They're like, and not running away from the scary thing. Yeah. Yeah. So was letting all that alarm, I'm just gonna, um, what permission do you want to give others through

Speaker 3 51:58

your story? People to think that they don't need permission to do anything, I love that. Yeah. I think most of my mistakes were because I thought I needed someone's permission. Somehow I need someone's permission to be like in my mid thirties and single, like somehow I need my grandmother's permission to be like this badass woman, you know, who doesn't fit her mold. Like, why I don't need anyone's permission to do, to do anything. So I would say you need to, you don't need my permission for anything. No one needs anyone else's permission. And that if you feel like you need permission to do something, then ha, have a think why. Go back a little bit and just. If you wanna live life according to your terms, and you feel like you can't, then just ask yourself whose voice it is in your head that's telling you, like, don't do it. But yeah I don't think you need permission to, it's your life. It's your life. It's your time, it's your money, it's your, I mean, look, if you're 10 years old, then a hundred percent you need permission. As you get older, you need to borrow someone's lawnmower, you need their permission. But like, apart from that, like, just like, you know, making your own choices, I don't think we need anyone's permission to do anything. I think we need people's input. Mm-hmm. For sure. I think we need advice or suggestions. But I, I don't think, um. We need any permission. Laura, are you ready for quick fire? I am. I'll steal myself. Do some stretching. Okay. Yes.

Speaker 2 53:52

Ready? I'm one word to describe your current relationship with success.

Speaker 3 53:59

Oh, I'm gonna be ballsy. I'm gonna say it's inevitable. Success is inevitable for anyone. If we define success as growth, then spoiler alert, I think just hard work will get us there.

Speaker 2 54:18

Love that so much. Your non-negotiable boundary that protects you from burnout, timely rest, and that's defined loosely, right? But uh,

Speaker 3 54:29

rest at appropriate times. Yeah.

Speaker 2 54:32

Well, hopefully the next question is, what does rest look like for you?

Speaker 3 54:35

I think it's a really unstructured period of time. Where you have no alarms, you have no plans, your phone is off, your curtains are drawn, and you know, when people ask you what you're gonna have, what you're gonna do, you can just say, I don't know. And that's okay for like hours. I don't know. That's

Speaker 2 55:01

rest, solitude, yeah. Amazing. One thing you wish more people knew about building a sustainable career?

Speaker 3 55:10

Mm.

Speaker 2 55:10

This is a big one,

Speaker 3 55:12

I think. I think that is direct, directly proportionate to how much growth and how much knowledge you gain. And how often you're out of your comfort zone. So the more complacent you are, you're not really learning. And uh, the more out of your comfort zone, the more skills and value you can gain. The further your career runway is,

Speaker 4 55:41

I think, no pain, no gain.

Speaker 2 55:44

Love it. The success metric that matters to you most right now? How often? How often

Speaker 3 55:50

I'm out of my comfort zone, or how often I face my fears? Yeah, that's good. Yeah, so if I'm not facing little Fear Gremlin, like every day. A fear gremlin can just be like doing lunges, by the way. It is just, yeah, it's nothing big. It's not like solving cancer but a fear gremlin is just doing, doing something you just don't like to do, like practicing a language or, or something. But yeah, the, the more fears I face, I think the more successful I am, regardless

Speaker 2 56:26

of whether I succeed. I love it. And finally, what makes you feel most successful thus far? Oh,

Speaker 3 56:34

well, if I am able to do something useful and give back to add value to society, it doesn't matter in what capacity as a caregiver or in the boardroom, it doesn't really matter. It's not prescribed. I'd feel successful.

Speaker 2 56:51

I love it. Thank you so much. You welcome. That was, that was a nice conversation. It really, we.

Speaker 5 57:07

Thank you so much for listening today and a huge thank you to Clara for such an honest and powerful conversation. Clara's journey from the Singapore Dreams, five Cs to her own definition of success. Breaking through self-imposed limitations with integrity really struck me that reframing of success to honor where you began and how much growth it took to get to where you are is something we all need to hear. I loved Clara's perspective on not needing anyone's permission. As she said, if you're 10 years old, yes, you need permission. If you need to borrow someone's lawnmower, you need permission. But apart from that, your life, your time, your choices, the question isn't whether you have permission. It's whose voice it is in your head telling you that you can't. Clara's advice to do hard things to face your fear gremlins daily and to run towards the scary things rather than away from them is the kind of wisdom that changes lives. And her reminder that our bodies are wiser than our brains, that we need to relearn how to listen to ourselves after years of being taught to suppress every feeling that landed hard. The biggest takeaway for me is that success isn't about fitting into someone else's mold, whether that's the five Cs or your grandmother's expectation about marriage and children, or society's narrow definition of what being a successful woman looks like. It's about growth, integrity, and the courage to be your authentic self, even when that makes you the odd one out. If this week's episode of Successful AF has resonated with you, I want to hear about it. Drop me a line at successful AF pod@gmail.com. I'm always looking for inspirational people to join me on the pod, so if you know someone who you think would be great, nominate them or yourself at successful AF pod@gmail.com. Also, please do like and subscribe. It really helps, and I truly appreciate you being here. See you next time.