Money, Mindset & Multi-Passion: You Can Have It All, Just Not at Once – Jessie Leong

What if the reason you feel bad about money has nothing to do with how much you have?

Jessie Leong is a marketing manager by day and the founder of How I Fund This by night — a personal finance community of over 80,000 people built on one simple but radical idea: that financial confidence isn't about perfection, deprivation, or having it all figured out. It's about understanding your relationship with money well enough to make it work for the life you actually want.

In this episode, Jess and Jessie get into the real stuff — the anxiety, the shame, the seasons where money feels impossible — and why being honest about all of it is the first step to feeling better.

In this episode you'll learn:

• Why money is an emotional topic first and a practical one second — and why that changes everything
• How to work out what you actually value (and spend accordingly, without guilt)
• The case for building an emergency fund — and how to start even when the end goal feels out of reach
• Why small, consistent habits will always outperform a one-off financial overhaul
• How to be multi-passionate and build something meaningful alongside a full-time job
• What Jessie would tell her younger self about mistakes, permission, and peace of mind

Connect with Jessie: Instagram: How I Fund This | Substack: For What It's Worth

Love this episode? Hit subscribe and leave us a review! And if you know someone who's redefining success on their own terms, nominate them at successfulafpod@gmail.com - we're always looking for incredible people to feature.

Connect with Jess:

Instagram: @kalicoaching.co

Website: www.kalicoaching.co.uk

Transcript

Speaker 0:02

Hi, I'm Jess West, burnout coach for high-achieving women, and this is Successful AF, the podcast where we get honest about what success actually looks like, feels like, and costs us. Can I ask you something? When was the last time you made a financial decision based on how it would make you feel rather than what a spreadsheet told you to do? Because here's the thing, most of us were never taught that. We were taught that money is cold, hard, logical, that talking about it is embarrassing, that being good with money means depriving yourself of everything that you love. And quietly, without even realizing it, that shame and silence has cost a lot of us a lot. My guest today started an anonymous Instagram account in 2020 because she was anxious about her own finances and needed somewhere to put those feelings. Six years later, that account has become a community of over 80,000 people. She's collaborated with Monzo, HMRC, Plum, and she is on a mission to help people, feel more financially confident, not by telling them to stop buying coffee, but by helping them understand that you can have everything you want, just not all at once. Jessie Leong is a marketing manager by day and a personal finance writer and content creator, the founder of How I Fund This, by night. And I think after this conversation, you're going to look at your relationship with money very differently. So without further ado, welcome Jessie Leong. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for having me.

Speaker 2 1:38

I'm really excited to be here. Thank you.

Speaker 1:40

I'm very excited that you're here.

Speaker 2 1:42

We're gonna dive straight in. Tell us your story. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. So I'm a marketing manager, um, but I'm also a personal finance writer and content r- creator by nighttime, I guess, or my 5:00 to 9:00. I've been working in marketing in various different guises since 2013 when I graduated. Actually graduated with a history degree because at the time I didn't know what I wanted to do, and I wanted to do something that I was passionate about, and actually something that I really have learnt, and we'll talk about this later on, is about how you can be multi-passionate, um, about things. But yeah, didn't know what I wanted to do, and I think that is a very common thing to not know what you want to do with your career at 18 or 17. Um, so studied history. Really enjoyed that. And then through that actually learnt that I love writing and I really wanted to lean into that and fell into marketing and have worked in various different agencies, client side, in-house- Small businesses, global organizations, the whole shebang I would say. But have learnt a great deal in that, and like have had to learn very quickly as well. And then in 2020 I started How I Fund This which was initially an anonymous Instagram account all about sharing my personal finance journey. And it's since then grown into what I would call a community of over 80,000 people across the globe now, with a mission to help people feel more financially confident. It is predominantly millennial women. That's just naturally how the audience has grown, but it is a very inclusive space, and everybody's welcome. And through that, and through creating that as a business, I've been very, very fortunate to work with a lot of well-known personal finance organizations and banks such as Monzo, HMRC Plum, many more. I've been really, really lucky, and I know this sounds very cliched, but when I first created that account back in 2020, I would never imagined that this is where it ended up six years later. So very grateful for that.

Speaker 4:04

I love your account. I've been following you for years. I couldn't tell you how long, but my favorite thing about your account is that it's very much like do the stuff you love doing. So you talk a lot about how much you love tennis, and you'll be like, "I bought tennis tickets this weekend, but I went to the library instead of buying a new book." Mm-hmm. And I think, I know that's like a really small example, but I think, you know, there's a big hammering, particularly of millennials. As a fellow manel- m- millennial, millennial- Mm-hmm millennial woman, we get hammered around like, "Oh, you millennials are all moaning that you can't afford a house 'cause you're buying too many avocados." Whatever. But actually, I love that you like come with such a balanced approach. So thank you so much.

Speaker 2 4:42

Oh, thank you for following me. Yes, I think the balanced approach is so important, and what I tend to say is, "I'll spend more on what I really value." So you used tennis as the example. Yes, love tennis. And very happy to save my money to put money towards those tickets. But on things that I don't value so much, uh, let's just say clothes, because that is the example. I'm happy to be a repeat outfit wearer, and shop second hand, and borrow from my sister. And you know, it is that balance because I think- You can do everything that you want to do, but you can't do it all at once. And sometimes it takes some saving as well. And I'm not afraid to admit that, you know, those tennis tickets, they do come with some saving and some compromise. But yeah, you can do everything you want to do, but not all at once.

Speaker 5:36

I like that. I really like that. And also the, like the saving thing I think is, I think you were the person who taught me about the Monzo pots thing, and like, just like, you know, having it all set up, and having... and it's a small thing, but actually having the money before you buy something rather than putting it on a credit card is a huge, for me anyway, like reliever of anxiety. You know, putting stuff- Yeah on a credit card and you're like, "Ugh," and it just adds up and adds up and adds up, and then you end up... I actually ended up in a lot of debt before I moved to Hong Kong a couple of years ago. And, and luckily, like I was in Hong Kong, I was earning a lot more money. But I was sort of there like, "I've got 5,000 pounds of debt. Like what do I do?" Mm. And panicking. And had I had you I say a couple of years ago, it was like 20- 2016, so you know, a long time ago now. But had I had you at the time sort of telling me, "Okay, actually, you know, think about saving, think about this," I'd have been a lot better off and a lot less panicky I think.

Speaker 2 6:28

Yeah, I used to actually have a very anxious relationship with my money, and that's actually why I started the account. It was more of a diary for me to almost offload those thoughts. Mm. And actually since then I've learnt, and you know, with this community and talking to people on a day-to-day basis, it's we don't necessarily want the flashiest car or whatever it is. We want that peace of mind- Mm that money gives us, or those savings give us, or those pots that you've just mentioned. We want that alleviation from that an- anxiety and being able to sleep better at nighttime. And I always say to people, "If you're stuck between two decisions or two choices where they're financially very similar in terms of both financially good, like ways to go, choose the one that makes you sleep better at nighttime." So a lot of people say, "Oh, should I, save first, or should I pay off my debt?" And they both have their pros and cons, and there are nuances to that. But if you are stuck between those two things and, you know, it's pretty level-headed in terms of which one looks the best, think about which one actually makes you sleep better at nighttime and which one is going to keep you up for whatever reason. Go with the one that gives you that extra peace of mind, I think. Yeah. Very strongly. It's not financial advice in that sense, but I think it's really, really important

Speaker 8:02

No, but it's, I think, you know, f- often we think of money as, like, cold and hard, but it's very, very intrinsically connected with our emotions, isn't it? And how we feel, and whether we feel stressed or whether we feel good. And, and I think, as you've just said, like, making a decision that is actually based on your emotions rather than just, like, "There's money, what should I do?" 'Cause you know, th- there's all sorts of finance bros out there who will tell you, like, whatever. But you're right, like, if it doesn't work for you, then you're not gonna feel good about it.

Speaker 2 8:30

No, definitely not. And I think that is it. It's such an emotional topic. It's why, probably why people don't talk about it enough because there's so much emotion attached to it. And I think that's also why I am really glad that this is a thing that I started, because no matter how much you earn or how much you have in your savings, we all have the common factor of we have an emotion attached to money. Whether that's a good, positive emotion, or right now we feel negative about it for whatever reason, we are all linked in that way, and that looks very different to people. And I think people tend to think, "Oh, high earner equals great with money, no worries." But actually through personal experience and speaking to people, it's not always the case. And that's what I also find very interesting, that there is so much nuance- attached to money. Even in your own self, you know, I we go through seasons with our money, um, and seasons where things might feel more difficult than others. Or you might be going through something else in your life, and the way that money goes through with that journey can change as well. Mm. So I think that is why I really try and help people feel more financially confident, because it's always changing, in yourself, externally as well. But it is something that affects so much of what we do. Mm. What, where you live, what you eat, how you spend your time. Almost everything we do, or, like, everything about our lives has a link to money.

Speaker 3 10:20

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 10:22

100%. Yeah. I'm really glad that people are willing to talk about it more these days, and I think I've noticed that shift as well. And I don't know whether it's because of what I do and what I write about and what I create, but I always find myself, whenever anyone just, like, naturally brings it up in a conversation with me, like, "Oh yeah, well-" You have clearly felt you could be open with me about that, or you are holding back on something for whatever reason. And I actually remember somebody saying to me, um, we were talking about something, and she had mentioned money, and she said, "Oh, but we really shouldn't be talking about that, should we?" And actually she didn't know that I have How I Fund This. And I didn't re- I was like, "Oh, but why shouldn't we be talking about it?" Yeah. Because we should be in this day and age, I think we should be. So yeah, that's It's just interesting. Yeah. I find it a very fascinating topic.

Speaker 11:18

It, yeah, it so is. I mean, oh, we could spend hours just on this. But the, the sort of, the fact that most wom- lots of women don't invest versus the number of men that do. And just- Mm-hmm I love that you're bringing that conversation to the fore, and I guess removing the shame around talking about money because to the woman who you were talking to who said, "Oh, we shouldn't be talking about this," it's a shame thing, isn't it? You know, it's in- ingrained in us that we don't talk about money, and I don't really know where it comes from, or maybe that we were only allowed to have our own bank accounts as in, like, not that long ago. Anyway, that, that's a whole other thing. Um, let's not, let's not start my feminist rant. But yeah, I think it's, I think it's amazing that you are bringing this conversation into the common discourse, so thanks. Well, thank you. Thank you very much. Tell me what success means to you.

Speaker 2 12:10

It is doing work that has impact, but that also aligns with my values. It doesn't have to align with all of my values. It just has to align with- a few, or one. And I would say that when I see the impact of my work through, whether that's directly or indirectly, um, and see that impact in somebody else, I also get something from that as well which is quite selfish actually when I think about it like that. But that is what I would say is what success means to me. But I also think it's beyond that as well, and it's having or living a happy and fulfilled life. And, you know, we mention the tennis hobby interest. And it's using your resources, whether that's money, time, to try and move yourself into a way that gives you fulfillment- Mm-hmm because I would say that I've definitely struggled in building- What I would call a happy and fulfilled life, and therefore that meaning of success. Um, and I would say it was only in the last couple of years that I've really felt that. And it means so much to me because I didn't have that before. And it doesn't cost a lot to make me happy, I've realized. I actually share on Instagram, I share my daily glimmers, which is, for anybody who's like, doesn't know what that is, it's me trying to find the small things in my day that I'm very grateful for. So yesterday's ones were things like how sunny it was in the morning even though I had to get a 6:00 AM train, but it was so sunny it didn't feel like 6:00 AM. It's normally always a dog. It's always like Always with the dogs, man. I know. There's always a dog featured in my glimmers. But it's actually doing this exercise and sharing it every single day has made me realize it's... I rarely say something like, "Oh, I bought something great." Mm. It's always something that I've observed or how I felt, or chalk drawings on pavements, dogs living their best life chasing a ball. You know, like, all of those things. But, and this is... Sorry, this is really going off on a tangent on your question. No, I love it. Um, but that fulfillment, it does feel successful to like- Mm you know what? I can be happy going for my walk, seeing some dogs really happy, the sun is shining, my laundry's out to dry. I don't need a lot to be happy, Jess. Like, that is it. Like, and a tennis tournament every now and again. Perfect.

Speaker 15:03

Yeah. What a realization, and I just, just quickly segue into the dogs, I've noticed that recently I smile at a dog before I smile at its owner. And then I've noticed a couple of people looking at me, and I'm like, "No, I was just, I was chatting to your dog, not, not you, but it's fine." Yeah. "Leave me alone. I'm ha- we're conversing." Was that, like, a conscious change? You sort of said that it's only recently that you felt really kind of happy and, and fulfilled. Is it the glimmers that you've brought in or was there something else that led you to feeling more happy, more fulfilled, or was it just getting older?

Speaker 2 15:31

I think it's a mixture of two things. One, getting older. Yes, definitely. But two, a couple of years ago I went through a pretty difficult year. Lost my grandma, who I was very close to. And it actually made me realize how lucky I am in life. Mm. And she had a really lovely life. She lived until 92. Lovely woman. Absolutely loved. Um, but it actually made me realize, like, you have to clinch every opportunity that comes to you, and- People say things like that, and they say, you know, "Life's so short." But you can't necessarily quit your job in those things. Like, you can't just suddenly move to the other side of the world if that's what you've always wanted to do. You still have to, for most people anyway- Mm you still have to maintain your job. You still have to look after the children if you've got children. You have to do the housework. Like, all of those things. But so there's that element. Um, but clinching opportunities doesn't have to be moving to the other side of the world. It could be when your friend says to you, "Do you wanna go to Wimbledon this year? Shall we try and get tickets?" Like, you say yes, and you figure out how you save for that, or you sacrifice something else to do that because that's what you really want to do. Um, so I think there's that element as well. So yeah, I'd say getting older and just life events really.

Speaker 17:02

Yeah. I'm very sorry to hear about your lovely grandma. Thanks but it sounds like she's left a real legacy. And I, I think, yeah, it's, it, there is an interesting thing about that whole, like, life's so short, I see a lot of content creators who are like, "I realize that my life is really short, and now I travel 24/7 with my four children." And, like, kudos to those people because, like, they, they are making it happen, and I love that for them. It just feels somewhat unrealistic- for someone like me who has a nine-to-five job, runs a podcast, and, is not really sure how I'd even make that happen. Now, that's not to say that I couldn't do loads and loads of research, but I think you're so right. It doesn't need to be the polarity between me going to the office three days a week and, you know, whatever, working Monday through Friday, and then never being happy, or my only other alternative is to move to Bali and surf every day. Mm. And, you know, I'd love that- Mm but also, I can find other things that will make me happy before I have to, completely upturn my life.

Speaker 2 18:05

Yeah, for sure. Definitely. And actually, I think also we don't, we shouldn't just be looking for those big things in life to fulfill us, say, like going on a trip to Bali, for example. You've got to find it in your every day because we live the every day more than we live those big life moments as well.

Speaker 18:26

100%. You've just reminded me, I was single for a very long time, like eight years, all the way through the majority of, like, my early 30s, and I used to find it so challenging that... And this is probably just me sounding like a bitter singleton. But, so many of the big life events, like meeting a partner, getting engaged, getting married, having a baby, were hugely celebrated. And then as a single person, I always felt like, oh, like, how do I get celebrated in this? And there was that really amazing- I think it was amazing episode of Sex and the City where Carrie decides to have herself a, she throws herself some sort of like bachelorette party even though she's single 'cause she's like, "This is ridiculous. Like, I go to all of your kids' birthdays, like christenings, whatever. I'm gonna have some time." And I think it's a silly example, but again, like that, the cultural designation of what we should celebrate versus actually what we can celebrate in our lives- Mm are very different, and I think we all need to lean into some of the smaller things because that is where the happiness lies. As you say, like those are our day-to-days.

Speaker 2 19:33

Yeah. No, for sure. And I think I've also been in your position. I'm like, like you say, like I've gone to all of your things. What are we celebrating about me? Like, what is my thing? 'Cause I'm not hitting any of these milestones that society tells me I need to hit. But yeah, it is that day to day. So yeah, more dogs, I guess, Jess. More

Speaker 19:53

dogs. That's always the answer, isn't it? More dogs. Yeah. I do wanna circle back. You said about the importance of your values, and I find values, A, I love values. I think it's really, really important to know what your values are, and I'm curious to know how you got to a point where you discovered them 'cause a lot of people wander around the world, like no idea what their values are. And I mean, I won't like go into it, but I just think it's so interesting, like when someone challenges your values, if you don't know what they are, you feel very personally attacked. And then actually it's just, it's just a value conversation, like two different values interacting. But tell me more about, you know, how you, how you discovered your values and, and how you sort of got to that place. I think it's actually through

Speaker 2 20:37

working in places where It felt like there was a disconnect between- myself and the role itself, or what the wider role meant to society. Um, for example, I worked in an e-commerce role, and my job was essentially telling people, "You need to spend more money on X, Y, Z." And it didn't feel right to me because I'm somebody who is definitely not perfect in this regard, but I care about the environment. So, and because of the nature of the product as well, that was an important element to that. So there was that side of things, and I felt this disconnect, and it made me feel a little bit- Disgruntled is the word that I want to say, or there was a, a s- maybe not resentment as such, but there was definitely something that I felt about this role and how it really didn't align with me. So I think there's a workplace element to things of how I've got there. But I think it's also about what I am passionate about and how that leans into my values as well. I mean, it's a very good question, and I don't really know whether I've answered it as- No, I think you

Speaker 21:59

have. I, we will, but maybe we'll circle back. You might be like in, in 10 minutes you're gonna be like, "Hang on, I wanna talk about values again." We'll come back. You know, there are no rules. Yeah. And we kind of actually have started touching on this. I'm excited to hear your answer to this. How has your definition of success changed throughout your career?

Speaker 2 22:16

So it used to be, So I'm in my mid-30s now, just for context. So in my early 20s it was very much attached to the job title. Mm-hmm. Chasing promotion after promotion. And that was what I saw as success, this marker of right, mm, going up the ladder, great. And it was this idea of being in the rooms where my leaders were. But it was actually for the wrong reasons. Um, and it was, I used to want to be in those rooms for presence, and to almost say to them, like, "Look, I'm here. I, you know, I know a bit about this thing, and that's why I'm here. You know, I'm trying to get up this ladder, and this is me getting up the ladder by being in more of these rooms." Now, there is still a, a small element of that, but I was recently in a room where I was surrounded by a lot of people who are more senior than me, far more senior than me actually. And I learned that actually, I don't want to be here to tell you what I know, because you know these things that I'm about to tell you. I want to be here 'cause I want to learn from those people who are steps ahead of me. So I think the definition has changed in terms of it used to be this formal thing of, like, this is your new job title. You've just been promoted, great. And actually, it's more now from a learning point of view which is really important to me 'cause in this room, I was listening to the people around me and thinking, "That is such a great point." You're coming at it from a completely just different viewpoint than I ever would. You're in a completely different department to me, so you see it very differently to how I do, but I can see your rationale behind it, and that was really insightful. So I think it's that element of things- But also, as we said before, it is that impact side of things. So, you know, let's go back to that e-commerce example. I, maybe I could have been promoted to head of e-commerce at some point in my career if I stayed in that role. But actually, I think I wouldn't have enjoyed it. Because I think there would be too much conflict between what I tell people or how I help people feel more financially confident, which is very much you don't need to spend a lot of money to feel fulfilled in life. And you don't need a lot to be happy. But then at the same time, in my nine to five, I would have been essentially telling people, "Spend this thing because it makes you into this fantasy self." Mm. "You are this person when you own this product." And actually, the product was very aspirational as well. So I think that isn't something that I would have enjoyed. Uh, but that would have been seen a success to be promoted to this head of role. So yeah, I think it is more about that impact and making that difference. And I think that's why I love talking to my How I Fund This community as well because I am honestly baffled when people say to me, "You've helped me do X, Y, Z. It's because of you that I have..." Actually, somebody said to me, "We went on our dream honeymoon because of you." I know. Oh, wow. I was like, "Well, actually, it's not just me because I could speak forever on something, but unless you're implementing what's being said, it's not really me. It's, like, 10% me, 90% that person." But seeing that impact in some way is really important to me.

Speaker 26:07

That's so beautiful. I

Speaker 2 26:09

know. It's the one that stands out to me the most- Yeah Ifey.

Speaker 26:13

May- maybe 10%, but maybe more, right? Because, that person may never have... Like I was saying, you know, I didn't know Monzo pots were a thing. Like, I didn't- Mm-hmm you know, it was just like the whole, like, just spend a credit card, spend on a credit card, pay it off later. Like, all of that stuff, you know? And I think you maybe just broaden minds more than you realize. We, we don't need to put a percentage on it, but let's just, just- you know, there's a lot of good work you're doing there, Jessie.

Speaker 2 26:39

Thank you. That's very, very kind of you. But it is definitely the person who is changing their finances- is definitely the more active role in all of this.

Speaker 26:51

But had they not stumbled across your account, they might have never had the inspiration, the information, all of those good things. So not discount how- Mm all the good stuff you're doing. Thank you. Thank you very much. What challenges or barriers have you had to overcome?

Speaker 2 27:07

So practically I actually had a very interesting situation where I had been given or got offered a lovely new role. And it was actually a really nice step up, a nice change. I was really, really excited about this role. And it was in March 2020, and I'd handed in my notice at my workplace. They'd hired my successor, and then Boris Johnson announced lockdown. It was all so fine. Like, I was like, "Okay, well, I'm going to my new job soon. Okay, we'll see how, like, I'll probably just be working from home." But we didn't actually, we didn't know that at the time. It was just like, oh, there's this thing

Speaker 27:49

happening. The weirdest thing, right? Yeah. No one's just like, "What is going on?"

Speaker 2 27:53

No. And then a few days later, I got a phone call from the new company, and they said, "We're really sorry but because of this lockdown thing that nobody really knew about, and just because of so much uncertainty, we're gonna have to retract the offer." And I remember sitting on my stairs and I was quite shocked actually. Not necessarily because of them, but I was like, "Oh my goodness, what am I gonna do? What is this news? Like, how am I processing this news more than anything else?" And I probably didn't even ask any questions 'cause I didn't really know what to ask when somebody lands something like that with you. I was like, "I actually don't know what to say." But afterwards I remember thinking, "Oh my God, what am I going to do?" I have a mortgage, but I'm the only person on that mortgage. So I was thinking, "Gosh, how am I gonna pay my bills?" I've just handed my notice. They've hired the person who's replacing me. I can't go back there. And we've got this scary thing happening globally, and nobody really knows what was happening with that either. And it was, I would say it's, you know, it's not the biggest barrier anyone's ever had to overcome, but it was a barrier in terms of, or a challenge in terms of the emotional side of things, the practical side of things. But also- And actually, looking back, I probably... It was probably like the turning point and like one of the reasons why I ended up creating How I Fund This, 'cause like I'm so anxious about money right now. Um, and it was a few months later that I did actually create the account. But yeah, it, it wasn't a fun time, I'll be honest. Like that week that first initial week, and I think it took me a month until I very luckily got offered a freelance contract with a local company who I still speak to today. But yeah, it was very, very odd.

Speaker 30:01

It sound- terrifying, and also, I think you're just a couple of years younger than me, but like 2020 kind of just end end of our 20s, beginning of our 30s-

Speaker 3 30:10

Mm-hmm

Speaker 30:11

moving into like at that point where you are moving into that more senior role, and then you kind of spoke earlier about the attachment to the job title and, and then suddenly you've not only had that taken away, you've had your salary taken away, you've had your security taken away, and as you say, we're in the middle of a global pandemic, and no one knows what's gonna happen. That's huge.

Speaker 2 30:31

Yeah, I mean, I don't even... I- just thinking back now, I remember I wasn't eligible for furlough either because of like how I'd- Yeah resigned. It was, I don't know. Like I, I think if anything, there was so much going on with the pandemic and everything else, like it just felt a bit like a whirl- whirlwind- Yeah in some ways. But honestly it's taught me the importance of an emergency fund. If like, if I can say anything to anybody, you gotta take your emergency fund seriously- Yeah because you really don't know what's gonna happen in life. Did

Speaker 31:08

you have an emergency fund at the time?

Speaker 2 31:11

I had savings. And I remember calculating how many months I could live without- an income, and I actually remember crying down the phone to my mum. Two separate things, but I was crying down the phone to my mum. I was like, "This thing has happened." 'Cause I was really excited about this job. Of

Speaker 3 31:29

course.

Speaker 2 31:29

And she was like, "It's okay. You'll be fine. You'll be fine." Like, "We'll figure it out. Like if you really need us," and that's such a lovely thing, and it's such a privilege to be able to rely on somebody else, like if you need them to. Um, she was like, "If you really need us, like we'll help you out." So there was that, and I'm very, very grateful for that offer, but I was also very determined to not have to take my parents up on that offer. I'm very glad that I didn't have to. But like I say, huge privilege to have that. But yeah, after that I definitely took my finances more seriously. I upped my emergency fund- I would never decrease it from what it is now in terms of like how many months it gives me because that was scary. Yeah. Um, so yeah.

Speaker 32:18

How many months should I have in my emergency fund?

Speaker 2 32:21

So I don't want to scare people, well, 'cause everyone's like, "How much should I have?" Like, well, it's very dependent on, you know, your circumstances- How much do you have? whether there's... I personally, because let's just take my circumstances into consideration, very different to everybody else's, I don't have any dependents, but it is, this mortgage is mine and mine only, and that's the bit that scares me.

Speaker 3 32:43

Yeah.

Speaker 2 32:44

I have a 12-month emergency fund. Three to six months depending on circumstances, I would say. If you have dependents, I would say more than that if you can. But if anything, just something. Don't let the number of months stop you from saving something and thinking like, "Oh my goodness, how am I ever gonna save up six months of emergency fund?" Start saving something now because it took me years to actually save up this emergency fund. And actually what I did is I decided that I would have less in my savings and more in my emergency fund. And that is something that I felt like I really needed. If we go back to that peace of mind element, that is what I really needed for my peace of mind, to think, "Actually, this is what I have if I really need it." If I'm stuck in this situation, I've got this, and it gives me that peace of mind. That, that was really important to me.

Speaker 33:46

I think that's so interesting because as well, like it's not it, to your point, it gives you freedom, and, and not just like freedom of mind. Freedom of mind? Peace of mind? Whatever. It means that if you do end up in a job or your job suddenly changes where you, you know, 'cause we can't control a lot of these things. You get a new manager, there's a new CEO, the culture of the organization changes, all of those things completely outside of our control. If you feel, "Okay, this is actually not aligning with my values anymore," then It's a lot easier to make the decision to step away knowing that actually, like I've got something that I can, can look after myself, even if it's just for a couple of months. I know a lot of people who are working very hard at jobs, That they hate because they- Mm they don't have a fallback option, and it's just, "I have a mortgage to pay, I've got kids," or even if they don't have kids, they've still got the mortgage to pay, "I'm stuck." And I think a lot of people now are in that situation because they don't have savings. And I take your point around, like, it can be really scary to think about a number of, like, saving for 12 months and, "Okay, well, how on earth am I gonna save that amount of money?" What I think is so fascinating, I've, I joined the, um, Monzo, like, 1p challenge this year- Yeah and, like, it... they save a, for context, they save a penny a day, like, based on the day. So, the 1st of January is a penny, 2nd of January is 2p, and la, la, la, la, la. Whatever. By the end of the year, you've got 600 quid. Now, 600 quid is not quite the emergency fund, unless you are an incredibly frugal individual, and kudos to you. But it's just a, a great example of how this thing can multiply, really quickly. I don't really- Mm notice that they take a pound a day out of my account, and maybe that's, that's privilege. You know, I understand that, that, you know, I don't notice that that goes. But when you keep it small and you keep it consistent, then it can really build up, right?

Speaker 2 35:38

Yeah, definitely. I always try and say small habits performed consistently over time have such a bigger impact than this one thing you do every now and again. Yeah. And it doesn't have to be this big thing. You almost don't even have to notice it sometimes. Mm. So for example, I say to people, "If you love your takeout coffee, and that is the glimmer in your day, go do that. But think about how you could change that frequency of getting them." So instead of getting your coffee four times a week, for example, maybe you get it twice a week, or once a week, or whatever that is for you. So you're still having that, and probably you might even enjoy it more when you have it less. Um, and it's really small things over time, and it's small changes. And sometimes they take some organization to do, but I think it doesn't have to be this big thing.

Speaker 36:44

No. No. And, like, it's the same with anything. Like, if your health, for example, like, if you eat vegetables every day, in the long term, we all know we're gonna be better for it. Whereas if you decide that you are gonna get married next week and you need to go on a crash diet, A, it's going to be a disaster, and B, you're not gonna feel good, you know? Mm-hmm. Like, it's I love that. Consistency over time, keep it up, small habits. Definitely, yes. Much easier to do as well when they're small. Trying to do- Yeah, yeah, for sure. What advice would you give your

Speaker 2 37:16

younger

Speaker 37:16

self?

Speaker 2 37:18

So this isn't actually advice from myself, it's advice that I got given from a previous manager, and it's always stuck with me. So we, in my one-to-ones, we used to talk not really about the day-to-day of my job and the tasks that I was doing that week, it was more about how I felt about work- Mm which was really interesting. We used to have some really interesting conversations, Eddie and I. And we spoke a lot about how I would procrastinate starting tasks because I was afraid of making mistakes, and he was always delving into why this was the case. Um, and I think it's two things. It's, one, I am what I would call a recovering perfectionist, and I've always struggled that way. I'm really trying to let go of that. Hence okay, great, okay- I can relate so you can relate to that for us, yeah. And you know, sometimes, or a lot of the time, it still creeps up, hence recovering. But I'm really trying with that one. So I think that's one factor. And the second factor is the workplace I'd worked at before there, uh, every mistake or every detail was scrutinized. Even the smallest mistake in terms of whether I used a bullet point over a numbered list, for example, was a conversation or a discussion. And that really made me question my ability- and how I could do my job. Also, my job was very much not aligned on whether a bullet point or a numbered list actually matters on the document, but fine, okay. And it made me scared, I would say- Mm to make a mistake in this new job. And also, sorry, this is the job, this is the first job that I had after the job offer got retracted. So I was very much like, "Oh my God, I need to keep this job- Yeah. Oh because I know what it's like to be in that scary situation." So yeah, I was very afraid then to make mistakes in this job for, like numerous different reasons. And he actually gave me permission to make mistakes in my one-to-one, and he was always very open, and I think he still is, very open about the mistakes that he made building this business up. It's a very successful business. Uh, it's won awards. It's a really lovely place to work and, you know, you can really see that in the people and how he- You know, Eddie, he's the CEO or the co-founder of the company, but he was always very open about the mistakes he made, like building this business up. And he actively said to me in one of my one-to-ones, "I want you to be making mistakes because that means that you're learning and you're trying new things." And that was the permission that he gave me. And you know, of course, in business there are mistakes that have consequences, and those consequences can really differ- Mm in what they are. You know, the consequences could be huge, or they could be very minor. But I think with the right guardrails up and that permission, it can be done in a safe space, and it can work. And I remember the first time I made a mistake after he gave me that permission in my one-to-one. I sent him a message and I said to him, "Hey, Eddie. I've made a mistake. This is the mistake. I was wrong about what I thought this would be. This is actually what I think it is now that I've made the mistake." And he... I remember his response because he said, "Great. I love it that you made a mistake." Like, "This is great. This is great learning." Aw. "Keep making those mistakes," I remember him saying. And that's always stuck with me because I thought, "Great, I don't actually have to be scared." And actually, I remember it was something that had some financial implication to it. It wasn't a huge implication. Um, and like I say, those guardrails were up, so it was fine. But it was this permission to try new things, to also not be afraid to tell him- Mm-hmm as well that I'd made this mistake. And I would say that I'm an honest person, that if I do make a mistake at work, I do let people know. But compared to the boss that I had with the numbered list versus the bullet points, like, my approach to saying, "I've made a mistake," was very different between the two managers for that very reason. Um, and I really wish that I'd, number one, had that advice earlier or had a boss that gave me that permission- Mm a lot earlier in my career. Um, but also wish that I knew that in myself that I could make mistake or I can make mistakes. Even now I can make mistakes, you know. They don't have to always be these big things. It could be a very minor thing, but yeah. I, I don't know. That's always something that's stuck with me. I think it's really important actually to share it as well. I

Speaker 42:25

really like that. And also, it sounds like there wasn't a lot of psychological safety at your first workplace either, so, you know- No kudos to you for making it through. Because that's a tough thing to manage, and to be in an environment where every little bullet point is being, scrutinized. Uh, it's not, it's not easy, so you

Speaker 2 42:42

know. It's not easy. It's definitely, um, well, it's character building. And, uh, at least there's some stories that I, share with friends every now and again about that place. But yeah it's all part of the process and all part of the experience.

Speaker 42:57

Y- yeah. Th- exactly. Yeah The character building I think is, uh, yeah, well done. Thank you. Um, what permission do you want to give others through your story? You're

Speaker 2 43:08

allowed to be multi-passionate I think. Because-

Speaker 43:11

Tell me more. I love this so much.

Speaker 2 43:14

Thank you. I remember when I said to my parents, "I really wanna do this history degree 'cause I love history and I really want to learn more about it." I remember them saying, and just culturally they have been brought up in a culture where it is very traditional careers, in terms of like a lot of their peers have children who are doctors, lawyers. Like, that's where culturally they try and push their children. Um, and I remember my mom and dad saying to me, "Well, what are you gonna do with that?" I was like, "I actually don't know." Like, "I actually don't know where this is going." And I, I remember my dad was like, "Uh, yeah, I don't know either." And you know, he went to this open day and then he was like, he's mind open to this. And I think from then, and then early on in my career, I always thought, "Right. I've got to stick on this one path and I'm gonna carry it on through until retirement." But actually you don't have to. Like, I can be somebody who does one thing 9:00 to 5:00 and then also writes a Substack on, gender and money, and I can call myself a personal finance writer and that's okay. I don't have to quieten that voice of being that person who writes a Substack and calls themself a personal finance writer. I can be two things. I can be somebody who, and everybody who's, listening and, the permission is you could be all of those things. You could have multiple passions. You don't have to stick in that one lane. You can go multiple directions in that career. We're in our jobs for so long, we might as well see which one we enjoy the most and try new things and have fun when we're on this long road to retirement. You know? Like, make it what it is, I think.

Speaker 45:09

I love this so much. So have you read the book How To Be Everything? No, I haven't. I'm gonna tell you who the author is 'cause it... And it was the first time I'd heard the term multi-passionate she calls them, or calls- Yes us. By Emily Wapnick, it's called A Guide for Those Who Still Don't Know What They Want to Be When They Grow Up. And I remem- I listened to it and I was like, "Oh, thank God," like, "I'm normal." Yeah. Because I would just, like, even, you know, when I was younger I'd say to my parents, "Well, I wanna be a plumber, but I wanna be a lawyer, and I wanna do this, and I want..." 'Cause I had one career, then I have another career, and I've got the podcast and da, da. Mm-hmm. And it was like, oh, there's other people who like this stuff too. That, and you're so right, like, especially for us, we're gonna be working well into our 80s if not our 90s. If we're not having fun it's not gonna be that enjoyable, is it? Mm-hmm. Let's be honest, you know? And it doesn't have to be fun every day, but to your point, you have permission to change, you have permission to do other things, and you don't have to absolutely love what you do nine to five. You can find stuff that lights you up- Mm-hmm outside of that because, again, there are no rules.

Speaker 2 46:10

No. And also we're so multidimensional in terms of who we are as people, you know? We're a multiple interests in certain things, like lean into all of that. I think my favorite people who I know are people who have another thing that they do. Like, whether, for example, with you, with your podcast, with me, with how I fund this, whatever it is, they've like lent into some passion and they're doing something with it. I find it really exciting talking to them about those things 'cause you can see it in their eyes when they're talking about... It's not to say they don't love their jobs, you know, they probably do, like, or, you know, like them. But you can really see that light up in their eyes when they're talking about something else or how it is all like holistically, how it all fits together. I think it's super fascinating.

Speaker 46:58

I agree. And it's so inspiring as well to- Mm-hmm meet people who are doing this outside, you know, in their own time, and I think that's the thing, you know? It's just, I find it incredibly humbling when I meet people like you who built your enormous community on the side of working full-time. Like, I remember when I started following you, I think you, 'cause you post about the fact that you have a job, you don't sort of go into what that job is. Mm-hmm. I remember thinking, "Oh my God she doesn't do this full time. This is amazing." Mm-hmm. Um, so yeah. Very inspiring.

Speaker 2 47:30

Yeah. Aw, thank you. I think everyone is who does anything like that. And also people say this to me, like, "How do you do it when you've got a full-time job?" I think people work full-time and bring up children. Like I don't think, I don't think the thing that I'm doing is actually that admirable to be honest. Like, you know? But yeah, no, it's good. It is.

Speaker 47:48

Jessie, are you ready for quick fire?

Speaker 2 47:50

I'm ready for quick fire.

Speaker 47:51

Yes. One word to describe your current relationship with success. Complex. Your non-negotiable boundary that protects you from burnout.

Speaker 2 48:02

Making time for hobbies.

Speaker 48:04

What does rest look like for you?

Speaker 2 48:06

Uh, getting outside in nature, reading, the occasional run, if I'm allowed to say that. Absolutely. Yeah. Sometimes the motivation isn't there. Um, and spending time with people I love as well.

Speaker 48:20

I love that. One thing you wish more people knew about building a sustainable career.

Speaker 2 48:26

It takes time. Um, and it involves... Sorry, there's more than one thing. And it involves detours and pit stops along the way. I love that.

Speaker 48:36

The success metric that matters to you most right now. Happiness. And finally, what makes you feel most successful as fuck?

Speaker 2 48:46

Doing something that I'm genuinely passionate about.

Speaker 48:50

Yes. Oh, I just wanna quickly say, like I know that was supposed to be quick fire, but on the rest thing, I, and you said, "Oh, can I say going for a run?" Yes, because I think so many people think rest is just sitting in front of the television, and actually that is not restful for your brain at all. And as you said, getting out into nature, spending time with people you love, moving your body, those are all things that also give you rest.

Speaker 2 49:13

But I also love watching Gilmore Girls as well. Let's be

Speaker 49:16

honest, I do love that also. Yeah, but I think- Yeah like I know some people who are like, "I need a rest," and they like plonk themselves in front of the TV and scroll. I'm like, "You're not re- you're not resting your brain. Just saying. Just, ju- okay, fine." I

Speaker 2 49:27

think that makes me more tired than the other things I mentioned.

Speaker 49:31

Okay. Oh, Jessie, this has been so lovely. It's been so nice. Um- It's been lovely. Thank you for- Thank you for having me. Thanks for coming on. Thank

Speaker 2 49:40

you.

Speaker 49:44

If this conversation resonated with you, I'd love you to do one thing this week, just one. Look at your outgoings and find one thing that you're spending money on that doesn't actually bring you joy. Not to punish yourself, not to make yourself miserable, but just to notice. Because as Jessie says, you can have everything you want, just not all at once. If you want more of Jessie's brilliant, balanced, judgment-free take on personal finance, you can find her at How I Fund This. She's across Instagram and Substack, and genuinely one of the loveliest corners of the internet. Now, this is the last episode of the season, and I want to say a huge thank you for listening. Whether you've been here from the very beginning or you stumbled across us somewhere in the middle, it genuinely means everything. We're taking a short break, but if you're already missing us, and I hope you are, there is a whole back catalog of brilliant, honest, real conversations waiting for you. Go back, explore, and find the episode that feels like it was made for you right now. Because I promise one of them was. We'll be back soon. Until then, take care of yourself, and I'll see you next season