Dancing With Pain: Living With Chronic Illness and Learning to Surrender — Lorraine Ansell

Lorraine Ansell spent 40 years in pain without knowing it. Waking up feeling like she'd been "hit by a plane," feet that hummed, a body that bruised at the slightest touch — she assumed everyone felt that way. It wasn't until lockdown, a TikTok algorithm and a very thorough letter to her GP that she was finally diagnosed with hypermobile Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome, and four decades of unanswered questions suddenly made sense.

In this season three opener of Successful AF, host Jess West sits down with Lorraine — author of The Surrender Agenda, voiceover artist and dancer — for an honest, surprisingly funny conversation about what happens when there's no cure. Lorraine's radical idea isn't to fight her chronic pain, but to dance with it: to surrender, accept, learn and ultimately love the body she has.

In this conversation, you'll hear:

• How decades of symptoms got dismissed as "growing pains" — and why women so often aren't believed by the medical system
• What it took to finally get a diagnosis after 40 years, and how to advocate for yourself with your GP
• Why "surrender" is a position of strength, not weakness or failure
• How Lorraine reframes chronic pain as a dance partner rather than an enemy to defeat
• Why rest is "revolution time," and how stripping life back changed her relationship with success
• The case for bringing pain "out of the shadows" the way we've started to with mental health

This one is for anyone living with chronic pain, invisible illness or an undiagnosed condition — and for anyone exhausted by the battle of trying to outrun something that lives inside them.

The Surrender Agenda by Lorraine Ansell is available online, on Kindle, and as an audiobook in Lorraine's own voice.

Love this episode? Hit subscribe and leave us a review! And if you know someone who's redefining success on their own terms, nominate them at successfulafpod@gmail.com - we're always looking for incredible people to feature.

Connect with Jess:

Instagram: @kalicoaching.co

Website: www.kalicoaching.co.uk

Transcript

Speaker 0:02

Welcome to this week's episode of Successful AF Pod. And what a week it is because this is the very first episode of season three. We are back, and honestly, we are back with a bang. Today, I'm joined by Lorraine Ansell, author of The Surrender Agenda, voiceover artist, dancer, and someone who has completely reframed the way I think about pain. Lorraine spent 40 years not knowing she was in pain, not because she wasn't feeling it, but because it was so completely normalized of her that she assumed everyone felt the way she did. Waking up feeling like she'd been hit by a plane, feet that hummed, a body that bruised at the slightest touch. It wasn't until lockdown, a TikTok algorithm, and a very thorough letter to her GP that she finally received a diagnosis of hypermobile Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome, and everything clicked into place. But this isn't a story about diagnosis. It is a story about what to do when there's no cure, when the answer isn't to fight, but to surrender, to accept, to learn, and ultimately to love. Lorraine's philosophy, dancing with your pain rather than going to war with it, is one of the most beautiful and radical ideas I've come across in three seasons of this show. So settle in, because this one is absolutely going to stay with you. Welcome, Lorraine. Thank you so much for joining me.

Speaker 2 1:28

Thank you very much, Jess, for having me. It's lovely to be here.

Speaker 1:31

I'm thrilled. We always dive straight in with the same question. Tell us your story.

Speaker 2 1:38

Wow. Well, this is, um, it's quite an interesting story. I think so anyway. So I grew up with, a whole host of weird little silly injuries. Things like, uh, my ankles would knock together, and I remember in summer with l- my little white school socks, and I'd come home, and they'd be all bloody because I'd knocked my ankles together because apparently I can't walk properly. Um, and all of my life I've had really weird little things. So I would bruise really easily, I would get out of breath quite quickly and feel really tired and, you know, I thought I was really unfit. And, long story short, I then got diagnosed in my 40s with a connective tissue disorder called hypermobile Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome

Speaker 2:28

I think, I, I've, I'm, I have read your book, and let's talk about the book, The Surrender Agenda. You are a storyteller, um, and it's an incredible story, but so beautifully written as well. And what really stood out to me throughout the book is just you talk about the fact that you didn't know you were in pain because it was your experience. So you had no point of reference for this is not pain, because you were always in pain. Um, do you wanna talk a little bit more about that?

Speaker 2 3:02

Yes. So it was quite a shock to me when I was diagnosed because- um, the big takeaway for me was having the, the doctor say to me, "Well, you're in pain." And I laugh now because it, it was quite comedic because- Mm I've never, I had never until that point realized I had been in pain. Of course, I'd had period pains, and of course- I'd had pains from when you fall down as a child and as you get older with headaches and things. But I'd, I'd never realized that I had been in a constant low-level frame of pain. It was very strange to me. And when I was younger, I just, a lot of these things I assumed everyone felt. I remember one of my first memories was, as a toddler, I remember feeling as if I'd run a marathon when I went to bed. Now, no toddler is running a marathon, um, and- I remember this burning feeling in my feet, on, on the soles of my feet, and I just thought, "Well, everyone must have that." Because of course, why would a toddler think anything different?

Speaker 4:10

Mm.

Speaker 2 4:10

And I went through life with these assumptions. That's just one of many little examples. And because I also grew up in a family where I personally think that they probably have something similar or something is going on, um, you know, I've always had tummy issues, but my mom was always on hand with like a peppermint tea or, "Oh, you just need to have a hot water bottle." And so, everything becomes normalized. Mm. And it wasn't until I kind of discussed this in my diagnosis appointment and then subsequently, that I realized actually these sensations I've been feeling all of my life, for decades, for 40 years th- that was pain. Yeah. And I had called it, I called it very charming things, like, "Oh, my feet are humming today quite badly." Mm. Or, 'cause I didn't realize they were throbbing or burning. I was calling it humming. Mm. Uh, which gives it a sort of different feeling to them, um, and a different weight.

Speaker 5:06

Mm.

Speaker 2 5:06

Um, but all of these things were happening to me, and so I kind of had to go backwards and sort of relearn my bodily sensations and, you know, was, was this pain? Because to me, I wake up every day feeling, and I've said this so many times, I feel like I've been hit by a plane. Not a car, not a bus- a plane. Like, like how odd that, you know, this should be something that I would describe how I wake up as. "No, other people do not feel like this," said my GP to me. Mm. "No," my GP said, "No, your feet aren't supposed to hurt. Mine don't," they said to me. And so I'm still learning that, oh, okay, so, so the feeling of like I have flu every day that's not what everyone else feels? And, you know, the answer is no. No, nobody's, going around feeling like this. Another one I tend to say to people is, "It's like when you're hungover and the whole world is just foggy-" Mm "and you're in pain and angry," but I thought that's how you were supposed to feel as a human. So, so I laugh about it because I do think laughter is the best medicine, but- But to be honest, there is a point where you're like, "Oh, this is pain." Ah, okay."

Speaker 6:25

You talk about the fact that you, you didn't know that there was something going on. So how did you end up getting to a point of diagnosis? You weren't diagnosed until you were in your 40s, so it's a really long time. But what was it that sort of made that switch to this just isn't normal anymore?

Speaker 2 6:41

Well, when I was a baby, like my parents had noticed that I did have like a lack of muscle tone. I didn't crawl, I just kind of slithered- Mm and then stood up, and just kind of went, "I'm here." Um, and I bruised a lot, and my, my parents had taken me to the doctor and had asked what is going on, and, and, you know, the doctor's like, "No, she's fine. She's absolutely fine." Um, there had been random rashes, there had been tummy issues, so, you know, there had been a long line of, "Oh, she just has," or, "Oh, no, no-" Mm "she's fine. She's got growing pains. She's got this," or all sorts of things. Um, and I lived with it. I lived with it. Like I had been, at 14, I had been seen by a physio for my knees. Um, I was told that's very common for girls, teenage girls, to have, uh, painful knees. Um, I'm not sure why we allow that to carry on.

Speaker 7:35

Yeah. That's, that I was also told that. Like, I had a lot, very painful knees as a teen. It was just, uh, just, "You're a girl." "Okay, thanks."

Speaker 2 7:41

Okay, thanks. Cool. I know. Okay. So, you know, it gets categorized in a whole- Yeah oh, y- p- periods are painful, therefore- Mm off you go, live with them. Yeah. And, and it was kind of like that. My periods were painful. Then when I was 15, I was seen by a consultant, diagnosed with scoliosis, um, was offered an operation, but, you know, you know, teenager exams- Yeah GCSE, you don't, you know, you know. And, and perhaps a good thing, considering that I don't really heal very well- Mm very quickly from wounds and operations and things. And I'd had weird things. Weird things had happened to me. I'd been in hospital, and doctors had expressed surprise when they'd think, done things like, you know, taken blood or, um, just, "Huh, gosh, you do have quite a large range of motion." I'm like, "Yes, but it still hurts." And you know, I was coming up against medical professionals who were also like, "Well, that's odd. Noted," but no one was ever thinking anything more. We were just like you don't seem to be screaming in agony, so I guess you're fine, perhaps."

Speaker 8:42

Hmm.

Speaker 2 8:43

I had been in the medical system, but I had been with the opticians and eye clinics and with dentists and, you know, I had brace- I've still got braces on my front teeth underneath these two teeth. Um, uh, but of course these are two... They sit separately- Yeah within the whole medical environment that we're in. So again, nobody rang any bells. It was kind of like, oh, well, the dentist isn't talking to the optician, the optician isn't talking to the dentist, and nobody's talking to the GP. So a lot of that information, I suppose, was, was getting lost. In terms of my eyesight, I've got high myopia, and so have a lot of my family members, and so I had always been warned about retinal detachment. So I knew already, so they knew already that there, there could possibly be something later on, or I just had to look out for. And I think that's really interesting to note because as a retinal specialist told me a few years ago, "Well, of course, your eyeballs are all connective tissue."

Speaker 9:44

Yeah.

Speaker 2 9:45

You know? Yeah. So, oh, hang on a second. Wow. Gosh, if, if only we could go back in time, in hindsight- Mm-hmm and rose tint- tinted spectacles, of course. Um- And then it got to the point where, well, we went into lockdown.

Speaker 10:02

Okay.

Speaker 2 10:02

And I didn't have anything to do. A lot of my work dried up 'cause I was doing voiceovers at the time. Nobody knew what to do. We're all kind of like, "Oh, okay, we'll go for daily walks." Now, prior to that, I had a really busy life. I was working in a recording studio, and I wasn't living in London, but sometimes I'd pop into London for networking events. So I had this really busy life of going backwards and forwards and all sorts of things. And I was so tired all the time, and I didn't understand it. I didn't understand why I just felt so exhausted, and I put it down to just being busy. I'm just doing this, I'm just doing that. And then in lockdown, because I had nothing to do apart from really, online dance classes and, daily walk and things, I was exhausted. And I started to question. I was like, hang on a second. How can I be exhausted, I just don't understand, I don't think I lack any particular thing like iron or anything like that. But I started to just think, this isn't right. And of course, one other thing I did in lockdown is I downloaded TikTok. Um, and the algorithm, maybe a few months into it, started to show me other people who had similar stories to mine. And I started to take note, and I started to resonate with these things. Like, hang on, I have bruises like that. No, hang on, I couldn't do that as a child. No, and I s- oh, y- and all of these things- Mm-hmm started to kind of come together until I was like, "Oh, maybe something is going on." And I had always been dismissed. I'd always been told, "No, it's grow- growing pains. No, you don't need to worry. Oh, if it was anything, you'd be one in a billion, trillion. Everything's really rare. No, you don't present like that." And then on, on social media platforms, I started to find lots of other people, and there, that there was, like, a society and all of this sort of thing. Then I went full Miss Marple, and I started researching more, and I started looking into things. And I suddenly realized, no, this, this could be something I have. And so what I did is I, I wrote to my GP, and I outlined my whole medical history, like point by point the not crawling, the fact that, my knees. And because I had medical history of these- Mm I put that in. I was like, 14, I saw... I was referred to the physio by the GP. I saw the consultant about my scoliosis, so there, there'd been a picture I could build up, and I had 40 years of- Yeah good information and history. And at that point, the GP didn't even see me. They just referred me straight away.

Speaker 12:41

Wow.

Speaker 2 12:41

They just referred me straight away. And I had, I had all of these little points. Like, I remember around this time I saw a physio, because I had been dancing quite a lot, and we'd done a dance show, and the amount of rehearsals and all of this sort of thing, I, I got something like, I suppose, like a tendonitis in my leg or, or something like that. And this physio afterwards was like, "Yeah, your knees are swimming. They're like islands in the middle of your legs. They're not really attached to anything." And I'm like, "No, hang on. I'm dancing. I'm doing tap- Mm and jazz and ballet. How can..." They wouldn't work, right? Yeah. And all of these questions started to then coalesce a lot. And then I got referred. At that time it was really quick. I don't, I don't understand how and why it was so quick, but, um, I was probably seen maybe a year later or something, six months to a year later, and that's when I went through the diagnostic criteria. This is changing, I think, in the future, but, um, they went through everything and said, "Yeah, you've got hypermobile Ehlers-Danlos syndrome," and then proceeded to tell me, "You're likely to have something called POTS and MCAS," which is, MCAS is mast cell activation syndrome, which is like a histamine reaction to things, and POTS is, postural, orthostatic tachycardia syndrome, which, um, for me, I think shows up in the fact that I'm always cold. Like, I have a temperature dysfunction. And all of those times when I'd get out of breath from walking up a couple of stairs, and me thinking I'm unfit, no, there was, there's something else going on. Mm. So yeah, it was quite, quite a journey to get diagnosed.

Speaker 14:21

And when you were diagnosed, I know we spoke about this briefly when we met before, but were you, did you feel quite frustrated that this hadn't been picked up before? And you've been back and forth to the GP and again, like because we don't look at people as holistic beings in the West, and we, as you say, we, we go to the optician, we go to the dentist, we go to the G- we, we're not seen as one whole person. It's sort of left to you to keep a track of all your medical history. Yeah, did you feel quite frustrated or was it like, "Oh, finally, someone is actually listening to me"? Or maybe a bit of both?

Speaker 2 14:53

At first, I feel like on reflection was it was relief. Mm. I was act- really relieved. And there was part of me, there was a part of me that went, "Aha, I told you so." Yeah. "I knew there was something. Like all of my life I knew there was something." Because I couldn't keep up with a lot of my peers in a sort of physical capacity. I'm not, saying that everyone who's bad at sport has this, but, you know, in my e- experience, I was just... I couldn't coordinate things very well. I tried really hard. I, I had tennis lessons, and I just could never pick it up to I don't know, what the other people in the lessons were doing. I would, um, often get strain in my forearm from, holding the racket and things. Um, interestingly enough, my parents played badminton, so, you know, much better choice of racket in terms of weight. Um, and I actually play that now. But, they'd sent me to learn how to play tennis. And I was exhausted after doing drills and runs and things. And so a lot of mystery in my life was resolved with that diagno- A, a, I have to say, a lot of th- things of the, part of the puzzle, they all came into place, and I was like, "Oh, okay. Of course." But then I did feel anger. I did feel frustrated because I connected the dots. And the dots were actually quite obvious in hindsight when you looked at my medical history, and just my life history. It was, it was really quite obvious. Um, and so part of me was like, "Oh, we had chances, didn't we?" There were chances along this line that we could have perhaps just taken a moment and asked the question why. Just why. Um, because I'd had hormones checked. And I had a consultant look at me and say, "Well, you are dressed very warmly, and I don't understand why you feel cold because your hormones have all come back fine." Um, it wasn't my thyroid, it wasn't the liver, it was, all of these things. Mm. And I, and I just think It, I was presenting- Yeah obviously not well with, if I'm wearing a scarf and a coat in an appointment in a hospital, which they're usually really hot-

Speaker 17:08

Yeah

Speaker 2 17:08

and I'm comfortable in that, then, you know, I often think there were missed opportunities. But, here we are today, and yeah, this is, I think, the next step. And that's why I started journaling. 'Cause I had to get all of that out of me, and I had to reflect on my whole life to kind of understand me now.

Speaker 17:29

Yeah. And on journaling, and I will actually ask some of the questions I'm supposed to be asking you in a minute, but I'm just fascinated. We're going down a rabbit hole. But what does journaling do for you? 'Cause you say it gets it out of your head, but, like-

Speaker 2 17:44

Yeah

Speaker 17:44

what else?

Speaker 2 17:47

I think journaling was a way, really, for me to take stock.

Speaker 17:52

Mm.

Speaker 2 17:53

To take stock of where I was, who I was- And kind of look back at that in a different way. Not in a I want to solve a problem way, but what does this provide me with? What information can I take from this? What do I learn about pain? A lot of what I did with journaling was I had to unlearn a lot of things. I realized that, when you are given a diagnosis where your body is perhaps not as normal as the next person, what do you do with that information? How do you use it? How do you make your life better for you? And that's what I did. And I, I had... The intention had been just to bluh it all, get it out of me. But as I wrote and I wrote and I wrote, and it flowed so easily, like it was so ready to come out That's when I started to realize maybe this will help other people.

Speaker 18:52

Mm.

Speaker 2 18:53

Maybe this will offer a kind of question, like maybe we should question things more

Speaker 19:03

I think that's actually a, a really interesting point. I was listening as you were talking about sort of the doctors, and, and it just, it felt, or feels like there was a real lack of curiosity in your care. Um, and even I remember you saying when you were diagnosed, it was just like, "Here's a diagnosis, see you later." Essentially like, "Well, there's nothing we can do about it, so you've got a label for it now, but bye." And you then had to go and do a load more research. And, and so it just feels like the whole system is in this very fixed mindset of A equals B, therefore C, and if that trajectory doesn't follow, then everyone goes, "Eh, oh well, onto the..." A- and I just, I wonder you know, you have really had to bring so much curiosity because it feels like no one else, I mean, in the medical world. And I know everyone's really busy and the NHS is underfunded, and, and, and, and, and, but I'm wondering if perhaps just a bit of curiosity applied could have made such a difference to you.

Speaker 2 20:04

Quite. Well, I mean, we'll never know, but one thing that I do a lot is I realize that I'm a very hyper-curious person.

Speaker 20:12

Mm.

Speaker 2 20:13

And my favorite question is why. Mm. And it's not, it's not to be an antagonistic question. The question is simply why? Why do we do things this way? Why don't we do them another way? It's a question that I think has served me very well. It's not a popular question. You're not gonna make friends with this question. Not at all. But I feel we need people to ask the why, because just because we can doesn't mean we should do these things, right? You know, why, why do we do these things? Why, why do we, have the frameworks that we have in our lives, the education system, the, political system, all of these things. And we can go on and on to every single system. Why are things done that way? Could it be because of efficiency? Okay, that's fine. Is it in a compromise? Okay, also fine. But that hyper-curiosity, I feel, is so important, and it's a great skill to, develop really and to work on because I feel you can see so much more when you ask a really simple question.

Speaker 21:23

100%. So Lorraine, tell me, what does success mean to you? Oh.

Speaker 2 21:33

See, now before I started journaling, I probably would have told you something about, living a best life and, I don't know. Mm. I would have said something very different. But now for me, success, success is landing Because we all have hopes and dreams, and we always want, the, a lot of messages is about dreaming bigger and better- Mm-hmm and, but I think sometimes we forget to have success land within ourselves, to actually feel what success is. And for me, success Succes- success is When everything just flows, when you feel sure, you can still feel afraid. And yes, I feel afraid all of the time, but I know that. And I know I'm going to be scared to do things, to do old things, to do new things. But success is the knowing. Success is knowing and still doing it. Success is knowing, doing it, knowing you'll fail, but still going to do it because actually you quite enjoy the journey. It's not really about the end point. It's really about enjoying the ride, being either the driver or the passenger, but still enjoying what you're doing and being present in that. And I feel that, for me, is what success is. When that lands within your body and you feel that, and you feel that safety, but you also feel that you still want to go out there and do whatever you want to do, 'cause it's your choice.

Speaker 23:11

Hmm. I love that you've used the word flow there, because that connects, for me anyway, so much to the idea of surrender So tell us a little bit, I mean, we've talked about journaling, but tell us a little bit about the book and how The Surrender Agenda even, uh, came to be born.

Speaker 2 23:32

So I do love a bit of a pun, I have to say. And, um, I kind of wanted to encapsulate all of this life story, and I've made it quite humorous- Yeah because, as I've said before, I do personally feel that laughter is the best medicine, and whenever I have had, um, either when I just, you know, am feeling really fatigued, or I'm just feeling low, or after I've had a medical procedure, I do like to have something that makes myself laugh, um, simply because I just, I think that really helps me in terms of recovery and picks me up. Um, and so I knew I wanted to write about it in that sort of witty way. I wanted to have a lot of humor come through, but I also, I wanted, I wanted to surrender. Because surrender isn't a lack. It isn't a failure. Surrendering is a choice in this world. It, for me in, with my experiences, surrendering is the first step, and that's my intention that I carry forward. Like, I have to surrender to accept. I have to surrender to accept to learn. I have to surrender to accept to learn to love. So that's the first iteration, and that's why I chose surrender because for me, surrender is a position and intention of strength through choice, and knowing what serves you best

Speaker 25:16

I really love that. Surrender to accept, to learn, to love

Speaker 2 25:23

Yeah

Speaker 25:24

I think that's- I need to

Speaker 2 25:24

make a T-shirt with that actually

Speaker 25:25

You do. You do.

Speaker 2 25:27

Let's get the merch out.

Speaker 25:28

Yeah. I mean, because you talk a lot in your book about learning to love pain, because pain is such an intrinsic part of who you are, and you're right, like, in order to love, you have to surrender. You have to, uh, accept.

Speaker 2 25:44

You have to accept. You have to be vulnerable. And it's not to be in a weak position, not at all. It's to... You know, and that's what love is, isn't it? Yeah. You have to, you have to give. You have to take a step. You have to take a risk knowing, and that's, this is the thing about love really, isn't it? You, you know that it might be unrequited, or it might end, or, you know. But, you know, why wouldn't you try to find some love? And I feel for me, a lot of the messaging we've seen is, like, it's always about fighting pain.

Speaker 26:20

Mm.

Speaker 2 26:22

And how we must... And I just, I just think to myself, "Oh my goodness, in my head I have images of, like, battles and fights and," which is a way, definitely, but for me, I, I wasn't aligned with that. I was like, "I, I, I can, you know, barely pick up a heavy spoon when I'm cooking. How am I gonna fight with a sword?" type thing in, in my, in my visual analogies or something. Mm-hmm. So, so for me, I thought, "Well, I want to love. I, I want, I want to love this. And if this is part of me, this is, y- you're, you're telling me to, you know, fight this," a, i- it's almost like there's a hate component to it. And to turn around and love something which is uncomfortable, painful, frustrating, and, you know, I'd, you know, of course I'd rather not be in pain.

Speaker 27:10

Mm.

Speaker 2 27:12

But it's not leaving, and, you know, uh, those growing pains, I'm still growing at, you know, 45, so, so, you know, what else could I try? What else can I find to, to help me? And I thought, "Well, love. I, I shall, I shall love it. I sh-" What is love? And love is when you listen, and you accept, and allow the other person to be, and I thought, "Well, can I do this with pain?" Is it easy? No, of course not. It's the most har- it's so hard, and it goes against everything that we kind of see and hear and... But I thought, "If I can learn some skills rather than take pills, then, you know, maybe I can l- learn the language of pain. Maybe I can find other ways to cope with the pain, to integrate the pain, to allow the pain to express itself," because the world of pain is, is, is so much bigger. Not only just from, like, a medical point of view, but from a psychological point of view, from a physical point of view, from an emotional point of view. So we have all these different types of pains that we're now understanding. So, I'm gonna befriend my pain. I gave it a persona, a little bit like my little cat, my, my cat is, is amazing and if she needs something, she finds a way. I don't speak cat. She doesn't speak human. But somehow she makes her needs known. Mm. And I thought of that, "Well I, I can do that with pain. What do you need? It's just learning to speak its language and learning to hear what it actually needs. And so yes, now I look at myself differently. I, I pace myself. I acknowledge that, okay, I wear these braces on my hands because my CMC joint is really painful because they're both really loose.

Speaker 29:09

Mm.

Speaker 2 29:09

So, looking out for myself. I, and I can better do that because I got a diagnosis, because I have an appreciation of pain, and I treat it as if it is a little cat that's bothering me

Speaker 29:24

And that's such a unique way of looking at things, and I love it. And I think Society, in my view anyway, is really moving towards let's eradicate everything that is uncomfortable, that we don't agree with, that's painful, et cetera, et cetera. But, you know, that it's not working, um, without getting too political. Um, and I, I think actually it comes back to your curiosity and your willingness to look at things differently and ask why and, and really dig into the difficult conversations, that, and you've kind of touched on it there, but, in, in your book you talk about the fact that we use this one word to describe so many things. It's heartbreak, it's a broken leg, it's it's fatigue. It's, it's so many things are, "Oh, it's pain, it's pain, it's pain." And, and, and it touches so many different parts of our lives as well. And exactly as you said, we wanna, we wanna get rid of it. Like, we don't like it. It's not comfortable. We w- And actually, what I'm hearing you say is in order to be successful, we have to surrender to the pain, we have to embrace it, because otherwise we're just locked in a deadlock battle for the rest of time.

Speaker 2 30:48

That's it. And I would rather, I suppose befriend my pain, and dance with my pain, and have that dance. I used to teach, um, couples' wedding dances for, their wedding and stuff. And, you've got to teach two people how to dance together, which is a s- a skill that we... you know, we've kind of lost over the years now, and sort of- Mm your first dance at a wedding is probably the only time you're really gonna dance with your other half. But learning the dance moves of your partner is actually quite difficult. You're not gonna pick it up in the first session. It's gonna take practice, it's gonna take time, it's gonna take understanding, it's gonna, it's gonna take listening skills, it's gonna take, m- movement skills. It, it, it's learning the language of your partner really. So, you know, if pain is my partner, then what are their dance steps and what are my dance steps, and how can we dance together in this journey? 'Cause we're together. Just because people say, "Don't think about the pain," it, it's there. I have to. I- Yeah you know, I can either ignore it and distract myself from it, which would probably cause me burnout and all sorts of other situations and complications, or I can face it head-on. We can dance together, and we can, we can find a dance that works for us. Is it the tango? Maybe not. Is it the Charleston? Um, m- maybe not, no. Those days are gone. But, you know, is it, it's a waltz. Is it a really slow waltz? Is there compromise? Sometimes I'll have to walk backwards, sometimes pain will have to walk backwards, but together as a whole, we're making that person. And that for me, all of those visual analogies, 'cause that's how I think and how I process things, that has helped me so much because I can be like, "Oh, okay, what do you need today?" How am I feeling? And when I say am, I'm thinking of, of the we, the whole we. Yeah. Pain and me, and in that way, I've been able to embrace that much more and been so much a- more able to kind of Give myself grace and actually end up enjoying things a lot more. 'Cause I think we also exist in this culture that we must do multiple things all the time, you know, either through novelty or just because we feel we should. And then sometimes when you strip things away and strip righ- things right back, you know, what is actually important to you? You know, and, and, you know, one of the big things I've realized is that rest is a wonderful, wonderful s- activity to do. Just rest.

Speaker 33:34

Yeah.

Speaker 2 33:35

What are you gonna do this weekend? I'm just gonna rest. You know? And I'm gonna rest all through the week. It's not I'm saving it for the weekend.

Speaker 33:44

Yeah.

Speaker 2 33:44

You know, rest is part of the whole week now. It's not, "Oh, I'm just gonna send off another email," or, "I'm just gonna, wash another dish." I'm gonna have my cup of tea or coffee, whatever it is, and I'm gonna sit down and I'm gonna enjoy the taste of it, and that's, that's mindfulness- Incorporated kind of in there. And then, pain might say, "Ah, you know what? I just don't like how we're sitting." Okay, so I'm gonna shift a little bit more. And as soon as you start to strip things away and right back and you start to hear the quiet, it's scary. It is scary, but then you might hear what pain wants before pain starts to get a little bit too aggressive-

Speaker 34:28

Yeah And, you know, you're, you're talking about pain, but it could just as easily be anxiety with someone else or depression or, or any of these conditions that we are so scared of. And actually, to your point, if we befriend them and allow them to sit with us for a while rather than trying to shove them down into a tiny box, into the bottom drawer, then you said there you, you enjoy things a lot more and, and I did hear joy in the way you were talking and I just thought, my God, how exhausting it would be to be in battle all day every day. And what a waste of time and energy to be thinking, "Oh, how, like how can I get rid of this? How can I..." Uh, actually, I'm gonna accept it and I'm gonna work with it, and we're gonna dance together, which I love. You know, what a difference that would make to so many people.

Speaker 2 35:21

Exactly, you've put it so well, because how exhausting is it? And it is exhausting. Mm-hmm. So, you know, to, to find joy in the small things, the fact that I say, "Well, I'm going to dance with my pain," 'cause I love dancing. I've had to give up dancing and the way I used to dance and, and I had to grieve that. And yes- Mm it's horrible, and yes, it's sticky, and y- yes, it's messy and, and, and all of those- Feelings y- you know, I, I had to feel. Mm-hmm. And is it nice? No, not at all.

Speaker 35:55

Mm.

Speaker 2 35:55

Not at all. But Once you accept that and you allow yourself time not to wallow in it, but to just sit with it for a little bit. Because maybe those feelings just, just need a, need a hug.

Speaker 36:14

Yeah.

Speaker 2 36:14

I mean, I need a hug. Mm. I think most, a lot of people need a hug. Um, but, just to sit with, that moment and that sensations both, from a physical point of view or an emotional point of view, um And I, I do think that they're so connected, all, all of these things. So, yeah, just to sit with it for a moment or two It has really helped me. I'm not saying I'm perfect and can do it every day and I don't get frustrated, not at all. But like I said earlier, success is knowing and still going to do it when you are scared, and you know that it, it will be uncomfortable.

Speaker 36:59

Yeah. So beautiful. I mean, we've actually we've answered a few of the questions that we're gonna is there anything else that you wanted to add to how your definition of success has changed? I know you said you'd sort of, had we asked before journaling, it would be a very different answer. Is there anything else that you wanted to add to that?

Speaker 2 37:21

I feel that Cause now I'm entering this perimenopause phase of my life, I feel that going forwards, success has a different quality to it.

Speaker 37:34

Mm.

Speaker 2 37:35

I feel it has, um perimenopause in itself is a whole, whole thing. Um- But I just feel I feel that success has a deeper, richer vein now, and I love that deepness.

Speaker 38:00

Mm.

Speaker 2 38:02

And I think my younger self everything was too light. Everything was, was just too surface level. And now, sort of this era, I'm going much more into myself, and it's It's really nice to get to know myself.

Speaker 38:23

Yeah.

Speaker 2 38:23

Because it's on my terms, it's my choice, my conversations, my languages And connecting back to myself, I have to say, has been liberating. And I think that's partly what success is. It's finding freedom within yourself to be yourself

Speaker 38:45

I just had this, um Like, I don't know, intrusive thought. Not maybe intrusive, but thought. You're a voiceover artist. You- you've done that in the past and, and I feel it's almost like you're allowing each part of you to have a voice, And also you're taking the time to listen to it, and I just think that's such an incredible thing to do. And I think it's quite rare as well, 'cause so many people are just, particularly in the UK maybe, I don't know, but, like, it feels like there's a very stiff upper lip. We keep calm and we carry on. And I do think the younger generations are changing that, and I think that's amazing. But I think, to have the patience to listen to all those internal voices and say, "Okay, right. You need this today, and you need that today," and, and actually try and not solve all those things, but sit with them and, and be like, "Okay, you, you, you are all heard. I'm not gonna give you all everything you need today," because that's, not gonna work. But I think that's very admirable.

Speaker 2 39:45

Thank you. Thank you. Yes. And it, it, it takes practice. Mm-hmm. And, and these are, these are skills that take time, practice, and, and, and, you know, failure. Yeah. You know, there are times when, you know, I, I haven't listened to my body, and I did that a few weeks ago, and I pushed myself a bit too much. And I was helping out at the stables and, um, then I went into town and walked around, and, and my, my feet were killing me. And that was, that's two business days gone.

Speaker 40:12

Yeah.

Speaker 2 40:12

I get it wrong, but it's, it's okay that I know. I know that. I know the consequences of the actions. Yeah. So for me to then- Sort of work backwards from that and say, "Well, I know. That's a choice that I made." And it's just honoring, like you said, all of those parts of yourself. Because, yes, we are different characters, I feel. I think, we have different roles we play at work, in our personal lives, and, you know, why not listen and celebrate each one? Yeah. Because everyone wants, wants to be heard. Everyone wants a voice. Everyone wants to be seen. So, what do you need today? And we, we're not the same every day. We're humans, aren't we? We're having this experience, so every day we're, we're gonna be different from the other day, you know? So, and we'll be different tomorrow, and... Or we never know. We are consistently inconsistent and inconsistently consistent, you know? Yeah. So, so why don't we- Yeah let, let's, let's do that dance, you know? And let, and... You know, I have had situations where I've had to face, one of my deepest fears is, is still to lose my sight. Mm. Um, the detached retina was, was not an if for me. It was a when. Um, and it happened when I was in my 40s. And When I was speaking to the retinal specialist as we were waiting between sessions, I said it felt like a weight was lifted off of me, because the thing that I had feared the most was happening.

Speaker 41:41

Yeah.

Speaker 2 41:41

So all that waiting had gone, and I'd faced my fear, and I still feel that it is a fear that I faced. And yes, it's highly likely it will happen again, but okay.

Speaker 41:55

Yeah.

Speaker 2 41:55

We keep dancing. We're gonna keep dancing, because I might as well enjoy things as and when I can.

Speaker 42:04

Yeah. We keep dancing. There we go.

Speaker 2 42:07

We keep dancing. We keep

Speaker 42:08

dancing.

Speaker 2 42:08

That's it. That's it, everyone. It doesn't matter how you dance. You don't need any formalness. It's just moving. Yeah. Moving to a rhythm. You don't have to have music. You can if you want. All music is wonderful, even, even your own music that you hear from inside yourself. Just let's keep moving 'cause, you know, motion is lotion.

Speaker 42:27

Yes. Yeah, exactly. I love it. We have talked about your barriers and challenges. Is there anything else you wanted to add?

Speaker 2 42:37

I think one thing I would say is, I mean, this is always best in hindsight, but you can look back at your younger self and you can think You know, y- you could have done the woulda, coulda, shouldas in your life. Mm-hmm. But, I don't find that particularly helpful because of course everything in hindsight is, y- you know, we've, we've solved everything. But I think I would, and I tell myself still to this day, I say, we're not looking for solution here." Yeah. You know? W- my, my condition, I have no cure. Pain doesn't really have a cure. Um- And so, what do you do when you have no solution? And that's, that's the question that I hold. I hold that question because, let's sit with that. Let's sit with all of those things that that could mean. There's no solution. So if no solution, do we try? And I say, yes, we do. We keep trying. We keep dancing, and we keep being our best selves. And if that means that you're, in bed or on the sofa, wonderful. If that means you're out on a gentle walk, absolutely wonderful. You know, all of these are e- they're equal- Yeah equal activities.

Speaker 43:55

And actually, that segues really nicely into what advice you might give your younger self.

Speaker 2 44:02

I definitely would tell my younger self that firstly, you were right. There was something going on.

Speaker 44:11

You were correct.

Speaker 2 44:12

I was right. Yes, exactly. I, I knew something was going on. But we make light of that, but also- It's important trust yourself. Yeah. Trust yourself. 'Cause I, I knew. I did know something was- Mm was not right. Just from picking it up from my peers and my colleagues and my friends and my family, y- things weren't quite right. Yeah. So trust yourself. Trust your gut. You, you do know. It's just that you don't have a lot of experience to know that you know.

Speaker 44:37

Mm.

Speaker 2 44:38

And so part of me is like, "Well, I can't learn a whole other 20 years or another 20 years on top of that," So but I would say just, you know- Enjoy it, but also, yeah, it's, it's okay that there's, there's no solution. It's okay Yeah And, and to sit with that. It's not an easy thing to sit with. Um- But I quite like that challenge. There's no solution, so what, what do we do? What don't we do?

Speaker 45:12

Yeah. And I, I wonder just on the trusting yourself thing, not to make this gendered, but I do think that as women, we aren't necessarily encouraged to trust ourselves. We're not really taught to trust ourselves. We are not quite the same age, but we're close and, and growing up through the '80s and '90s, and that sort of you should look this way, you should dress this way, you should think this way, you sh- eat this way, you should... There's a lot of shoulds there. And you talked about the unlearning with the journaling and the unlearning that or sort of relearning that this is pain and this is what it feels like and it, and it's not regular, and it's not what everyone else feels. And I think is there maybe an unlearning around what self-trust does look like and actually giving yourself permission to listen to the voice that's inside and, and saying, "Something's not the, not quite right." Um, because I think we're not taught how to do that.

Speaker 2 46:22

No. We're not taught how to do that. Although I have seen on social media there are parents that do talk to their children, about, their body autonomy and that sort of thing, and I think that is really important because when I think back to, being in school and you needed the toilet, so your cue, your body is saying, "Your bladder is full. You need to go to the toilet." Often in a schooling environment, no, you can't go. You can't go until break time. Now, that's interesting 'cause that's, that's where I feel I had then switched off that cue And so that cue can happen. My medical experiences and my growing up and my family experiences where that, "No, that's not pain," so you switch off that. She's

Speaker 47:09

fine. She's not

Speaker 2 47:10

fine- She's fine but she's fine. She's fine. Yeah. She's fine. She's not fine. Yeah. She's not fine. Um, and, and we're so scared of that language of pain.

Speaker 47:17

Mm.

Speaker 2 47:17

And I think maybe we, we talk about pain like, "Oh, how... Oh, you hurt your hand. You fell over. Oh." Instead of saying, "Oh, it's okay. It's okay." No, it's not. It hurts. Mm-hmm. Let's, let's allow the child, and even now, to say it hurts. Mm. And, you know, d- do you need to swear about it? Go swear about it. You know, do you need to cry about it? Yes. Let's... Oh, did it hurt? How did it hurt? Oh, it was scratchy. Oh, it was, or it itches. Oh, okay. What can we do about it? Okay, let's, let's rub it. Is everything else okay? How, how, you know- Mm you fell on your knee, how else? Is everything okay? You know, just sort of bringing that into the conversation a lot more because, you know, I think as often when you, if you're going to have a period You're not really taught what, not good pain, but what normal pain level is- Mm-hmm versus abnormal pain levels. Yeah. So that's another, another avenue in, in that sense. So, you know, and you're also not taught what perimenopause or menopause is either, and I think that is again another-

Speaker 48:26

Yeah

Speaker 2 48:26

another facet of this conversation about pain. But, you know, my aim is, is to let's, instead of hiding from pain and, I don't know, shaming pain let's encourage ourselves to talk about it more openly. And, you know, we t- we t- we know we've got to a point 'Cause, yeah, in the '80s there was nothing about mental health. Nothing. But now that's become part of the conversation. Let's, let's do this with pain. Let's, let's bring pain out of the shadows and be like, "Okay, well, actually, yeah, I'm in a lot of pain today."

Speaker 48:58

Mm.

Speaker 2 48:59

Yeah, I am. And, you know, I'm, you know, how are you?" No, the answer is not, "I'm fine." I say, "Well, actually, you know what? My back's hurting, my neck's not, you know, I slept a bit funny, and oh, I need pillows for this." I'm not fine. It's painful.

Speaker 49:17

Yeah.

Speaker 2 49:17

But already saying that, you know, is allowing pain to be like, "Yeah, I've been telling you this."

Speaker 49:23

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 49:25

So, you know, that's what I would hope, that more and more of us talk about pain without being afraid of it all the time.

Speaker 49:35

Yeah. It's like bringing a vampire into the light, the sunshine, isn't it? And it's like, it, you know, something is sucking blood from you, sucking energy from you. You bring it into the sunshine, and it's like, okay it's in the light now. Like, it's still there, but it's, less aggressive perhaps.

Speaker 2 49:51

Exactly. Exactly. And, and that's it. It's, pain is draining.

Speaker 49:55

Yeah.

Speaker 2 49:56

When you are in pain, it just takes so much from you. And, in my case, this is something that I always tell my friends and my family and my husband, if I go quiet, because I'm a very chatty person, I'm always making a joke, or I'm always having a witty observation, or at least I think they're witty. But, if I am quiet, if I go quiet, if I don't, if I don't look up when you've got a snack that you're offering me, something's wrong. I am in pain. And that's also because I've identified my behaviors- Mm when I am in pain. It, it is draining, but then I've brought it into the light and I've said, "Okay, I, I know, I understand that me in pain, I'm going to display these..." I'm not screaming in pain. No. I don't think I can remember a time I've ever screamed in pain. I have gone internalized it completely- and I've shut down. I've absolutely shut down. But I know that about myself now, and, and one of the things I think is important to look at is who are you when you are in pain?

Speaker 51:00

Yeah.

Speaker 2 51:01

What happens to you? Are you screaming in pain, or are you, like, internalizing it? And so by, yes, bringing it out into the light, then yes, I still have chronic pain. Yes, things hurt. I'm just conscious of my neck and my back and, my one foot 'cause I've crossed the other, other one on top of it because it's slightly more comfortable, and I'm gonna have to fidget just to move. But I'm aware of that

Speaker 51:27

Yeah

Speaker 2 51:30

And I might be hyperly conscious of it and aware of it, but I know that now. And now I can have a different discussion with myself, and I can care for myself in a different way. And I can have an honest conversation with you and with other people and say, "How are you?" "No, no, I'm not fine today."

Speaker 51:50

Mm.

Speaker 2 51:52

And pain is happier for it, I feel.

Speaker 51:54

Yeah. It's not being pushed down anymore. It's being seen. We- that's what we want, right? To be seen.

Speaker 2 52:01

Exactly. Exactly.

Speaker 52:05

It feels like you're always one step ahead of me today, because I feel like you might have answered this question already. But what permission do you want to give others through your story?

Speaker 2 52:14

My dream for everyone is that For those who experience chronic conditions that are invisible for a lot of the time or who are in pain, that you are seen, that you are heard, and not only by others, but by yourself.

Speaker 52:32

Mm.

Speaker 2 52:33

Um, and I do hope that we have a change of conversation about pain and how pain can be your dance partner, and by listening to it, you can actually find out a lot about yourself And to not be afraid of, of the pain. Yes, it is scary. Yes, it hurts. Yes, it's frustrating. Yes, there is grief But There's also another side to pain that perhaps we've never seen before.

Speaker 53:14

Mm-hmm. I feel like I've heard you almost say, like, pain can coexist with joy and with love and with laughter, and I don't think that's something that we talk about very often.

Speaker 2 53:28

Exactly. And what's that, there's that film, isn't there? The, the Disney film with all the different-

Speaker 53:34

Oh, Inside Out? Is that it?

Speaker 2 53:36

Is that one it? Is that it? Yeah, maybe it's that one. Maybe. But I love that because you have all of the different emotions.

Speaker 53:42

Yeah.

Speaker 2 53:44

And, some of those are associated with pain, and so, that's, they all coexist together. Yeah. They're all there. Yeah. And kind of all running around. Um, and we are different levels of that at any one time. And, somebody once told me, all these emotions, they show up like at, at a party and they all show up, and, they're all gonna have, I don't know, a bop on the dance floor, I guess. Some might stick around longer than others, and, you know, we all, we all want to feel the joyful things, absolutely. But everyone's come to the party.

Speaker 54:21

Yeah.

Speaker 2 54:21

Everyone's in that, in, in the film, they're all in that console area, aren't they? Yeah. They're all having a go at steer- steering the boat, I suppose,

Speaker 54:30

aren't they? Yeah. I really like that. Uh, yeah, it's a great film. It's such a good film. Lorraine, are you ready for quick fire?

Speaker 2 54:39

Oh, God. Here we go. All right.

Speaker 54:42

One word to describe your current relationship with success.

Speaker 2 54:46

Ooh, rewritten.

Speaker 54:47

Oh, I love that. Your non-negotiable boundary that protects you from burnout.

Speaker 2 54:53

Uh, rest is revolution time.

Speaker 54:59

And what does rest look like for you?

Speaker 2 55:02

Oh It feels like a great big hug.

Speaker 55:08

One thing you wish more people knew about building a sustainable career?

Speaker 2 55:13

Consistency. Mm. And I'm not- I don't mean every day. If it takes a week, two weeks, a month, a year, three years, a decade, you're still being consistent. Yeah. It's just timelines are different.

Speaker 55:27

And what's the success metric that matters most to you right now?

Speaker 2 55:32

Safety and presence

Speaker 55:35

And finally, what makes you feel most successful as fuck?

Speaker 2 55:41

When I can feel everything and not dim anything

Speaker 55:52

So beautiful.

Speaker 2 55:54

Thank you.

Speaker 55:57

Oh, I've really enjoyed our conversation. Thank you so much.

Speaker 2 56:00

Me too, Jess. It's been great. We should do this more often.

Speaker 56:02

We should Hang out more. We really should. The one thing that's really gonna stay with me is this notion of sitting o- or dancing with pain, and it m- might not be pain, might be grief, might be anxiety. It might, might be another uncomfortable emotion, but actually allowing that to come into the light, I think is, it's a huge lesson learned. So thank you.

Speaker 2 56:29

Thank you for listening and taking it on board.

Speaker 56:34

So the book is out- Yes available in all good booksellers or just online?

Speaker 2 56:39

It's online, just online. It's The Surrender Agenda by Lorraine Ansell, it's a pink and yellow book,

Speaker 56:46

so- It's very

Speaker 2 56:46

beautiful thank you. Thank you.

Speaker 56:48

Um- Also available on Kindle.

Speaker 2 56:51

It is, and on, uh, audio- Oh, and other- so you

Speaker 56:53

can- Oh, audio

Speaker 2 56:54

as

Speaker 56:54

well? Yes, it's gorgeous. Is it your voice?

Speaker 2 56:56

Yes, yes.

Speaker 56:57

Hurrah. I, I- I was gonna say, you can't be a voiceover artist and not have a voiceover your own book.

Speaker 2 57:01

Exactly. It's a bit of a marathon, I'll admit, but, it was good doing it.

Speaker 57:06

Well, there you go. That's your marathon. You said you'd never do a marathon, but c- there's all sorts- of different marathons, right?

Speaker 2 57:11

I could dance a marathon.

Speaker 57:12

There you go.

Speaker 2 57:12

I mean, I'd be in pain afterwards- but gosh, wouldn't it be great? Could do all the decades of music. You could do all genres. Oh, yeah, it'd be

Speaker 57:19

great. I genuinely cannot stop thinking about this conversation. The image of dancing with your pain, not fighting it, not hiding from it, but learning its steps, learning its language, finding its rhythm, and moving together. I mean, honestly, what a gift Lorraine has given us in that idea alone. What struck me was Lorraine's definition of success, knowing and still doing it, knowing you'll be scared, knowing it might hurt, knowing there's no solution, and choosing to keep dancing anyway. That's it. That's the whole thing. If today's episode reson- resonated with you, please go and grab The Surrender Agenda by Lorraine Ansell. It's available online, on Kindle, and on audio in Lorraine's own voice, which feels very right. And if you know someone who's navigating chronic pain, invisible illness, or just that exhausting battle of trying to outrun something that lives inside them, share this episode. It might just change how they see things. As always, I'd love to hear from you. Drop me a line at successfulafpod@gmail.com. And if you enjoyed today's episode, please do like and subscribe. It makes such a difference. See you next

58:32

time.