2 - Sweet Bobby - My Catfishing Nightmare

Do your friends think you're weird because you’re obsessed with true crime? Or because you want to talk about how horrifying online dating really is? Then you’re in the right place. Welcome back to Drawn to Darkness, where horror and true crime get cosy. In this episode, we go deep into Sweet Bobby, a jaw-dropping catfishing documentary that’s so twisted it feels like fiction—except it’s not.

Kirat’s story is every online dater’s worst nightmare: what starts as a promising online relationship with a doctor named Bobby turns into an 8-year saga of manipulation, abuse, and deception. We unpack why Sweet Bobby hits so hard—and why it’s not just a story about catfishing, but about the darker side of human psychology, loneliness, and misplaced trust.

Palate cleanser:
Heal your childhood wounds and watch White Lotus (which is more likely to open them)

Recommendations for when you need more of that spine-crawling betrayal energy:

• The Stranger Beside Me by Anne Rule – True crime royalty meets personal horror.
• Baby Reindeer (Netflix) – Another chilling case of stalking, obsession, and blurred identities.
• The Talented Mr. Ripley – Fake it till you (literally) make it... into someone else's life.
• Killers of the Flower Moon by David Grann – Lies, manipulation, and murder in early 20th-century America.
• Friends - "the one with the monkey" and "the one with Russ" to meet a different Bobby – fun Bobby!
• BTK documentaries and interviews with his daughter – How do you process it when your dad is a serial killer?

Homework assignment:
It Follows – a modern supernatural horror film that explores fear, intimacy, and relentless pursuit. 

Special thanks to Nancy Azano for providing our cover art. You can find her on Instagram @nancyazano. 

And Harry Kidd for composing and recording our opening score. His Instagram is @harryjkidd and you can also find him on Spotify. https://open.spotify.com/artist/43BiFkkOHykD8n9g4z0Qd7

Transcript

Anne 0:00

We apologize for any audio issues we've had in these early episodes. We're learning, we're adjusting mics, figuring out how to edit. Hang in there. We'll get better. Welcome back to Drawn to Darkness, where we discuss our favorite dark and dreadful media. My name is Annie. I'm an English teacher, and I'll be sharing my favorite horror movies, TV shows and podcasts

Caroline 0:30

and I'm Caroline, and I'll be doing the same from the true crime side.

Anne 0:34

Before we get started I wanted to talk about why we started this. couple years ago I was with my book club, which has a variety of people who like different kinds of books, lots of romance and drama in there, fantasy sci-fi, and I was having a casual conversation with one of these women and she said something along the lines of, I don't know why you like all this horror stuff. You seem so normal. I wasn't offended if she's listening. I wasn't upset at all, and if anything, I was inspired because it's kind of what led to what we're doing right now. But it stuck with me that this is viewed as weird. I. But is it weird? I mean, you look at the popularity of True Crime podcasts, the popularity of Mike Flanagan and, James Wan, and the number of subscribers to shudder, which is my favorite, horror streaming services. Maybe this isn't weird. And that's one of the reasons that we are doing drawn to, darkness. have you ever had an encounter like that where somebody thinks you're weird because you wanna talk about murder?

Caroline 1:29

well, I think, you know. a lot of people think I'm weird. but yeah, I mean, just today I was volunteering at the book fair and I was with a mom and I mentioned knowing her husband, seeing him at the dog park. And then I'm always grateful when he arrives because I'm terrible at small talk and he is so good at it and I'm like, oh, thank God. I won't have to think of anything to say. And then I followed that up with, because I'd probably say something weird, like, who's your favorite serial killer? And then I had to also clarify. I don't mean favorite, I mean who like fascinates you, you know?'cause we don't worship these people. are interested in the compulsion, or the capability. thankfully this woman said, I love the podcast, my favorite murder. So I did not feel alone. But yeah, I find that I am often bringing up that people consider weird, in conversation where it's not appropriate, but sometimes it works, works out okay. Which I guess proves Annie's point.

Anne 2:31

well I guess my point is it's not weird, so we want to be here for you to have somebody to delve into this dark and dreadful media with. Like, if you don't have friends that you can talk to about this, you can come here and listen to us. So. last week we talked about pen pal and based on that, Caroline, you recommended the documentary Sweet Bobby. before we go into that, too much, what do you think is a normal time to date someone online before meeting them in person?

Caroline 3:01

Like a day. I will say to be fair. most of the people I've ever dated, were a friend of mine for a long time, first. clearly trust is something have a high threshold for when it comes to a relationship like this. So this is very baffling to me. What about you?

Anne 3:20

Well, yeah, I met my husband when I was 22. this was fairly pre online dating being a thing, and so I've never had to deal with the true horror of online dating, like many people I know have. So for me, it's, it's baffling that anyone could, could get engaged and not have actually met the person. Not to victim blame here, but I would say for me it's probably a few months. You know, I could see corresponding with someone for a few months, but let's just say eight years is way too long. So why don't you tell us about. Sweet Bobby, just a reminder, there will be spoilers. We're going to assume you've either watched the documentary or you don't mind finding out what happens. I'm gonna give you a quick pause to go watch it. It's only about an hour and a half long and come back. Okay. Caroline, spoil away. What's this about?

Caroline 4:10

Okay. Okay. So Sweet Bobby. My Catfish Nightmare is a documentary about Kirat. in her nearly decade long relationship. With a man named Bobby Jandu this relationship takes an unsettling turn when she finds out Bobby is not who he says he is. the Documentary explores the emotional and psychological toll of catfishing, as well as the cultural and family pressures that impacted Kirat's experience.

Anne 4:42

Can you tell us what catfishing is for anyone who has never heard of it?

Caroline 4:45

yes. So catfishing is, something that was created in the online boom. Thanks Al Gore. And, basically it's when people assume another personality and, develop a relationship of any kind with another person, usually romantic. and they use pictures. They use any sort of thing that they can, video, sometimes audio or creatively audio, until, inevitably the person finds out that this person is not who they say they are.

Anne 5:17

Well, I think this has been around for a long time. I mean, I remember my sister was catfished in 8th grade, which would've been in the mid nineties, with aim chat rooms

Caroline 5:26

Mm-hmm.

Anne 5:26

mean girls in her class set her up to say things and then shared it with everybody. So I think that's an early version of it, but. You know what they can do now is so much more complex and deceitful and potentially damaging than what happened to my poor little sister. the big spoiler is, do you want to reveal it?

Caroline 5:47

Yeah, Bobby ain't Bobby. Not only is it not Bobby, but it is brutal who has been catfishing Kirat. It is her cousin who is a very, very close confidant friend person in her life and has been a connection point with Bobby. so I guess it, it shouldn't be that shocking when you find out that there is a catfish involved, but it is pretty jarring and I'm sure it was for her.

Anne 6:15

I knew there was catfishing and the whole time, I'm trying to kind of figure this out, but I never thought it was simran. What kept me thinking, maybe this isn't what it seems, is that Simran actually knew the guy. I was like, oh, surely

Caroline 6:28

right.

Anne 6:29

Yeah, and she was such a liar. I mean, it's just such a wild story and watched it maybe five or six nights ago, and I have to say it's been torture waiting around for this tiny sliver of time when neither of us are working. Our kids are realistically on iPads. We're in radically different time zones, and we're actually both available. I wanted to talk about this earlier and it was torture to wait. Well,

Caroline 6:52

Yeah,

Anne 6:53

yeah.

Caroline 6:54

I'm so excited to talk about it because I don't know that many people who have watched it. I have not only watched it, I've listened to. Another podcast I love called True Crime Obsessed. They cover documentaries. I've listened to their coverage of this multiple times.

Anne 7:09

Multiple times.

Caroline 7:11

yeah, because it is a mind blowing story, which I think back to the theme of this podcast, it is tragic, but nobody dies. But it's also just, it's so much work, Simran. The cousin who is catfishing Bobby is pretending to not just be Bobby, but also has new Facebook profiles for Bobby's wife and other friends, and like a whole network. I think it's like 60 profiles or something like that. It's insane.

Anne 7:39

What adjective would you use to describe what Simran did to Kirat?

Caroline 7:44

Psychotic, Kirat wants to have children, wants to get married, so she, I mean, she, she ruined this person's life, her cousin,

Anne 7:51

for no reason. Yeah,

Caroline 7:52

for no reason.

Anne 7:54

that come to mind for me are diabolical, cruel.

Caroline 7:57

Yes.

Anne 7:58

is astounding that.

Caroline 8:00

Yeah.

Anne 8:01

her own cousin who she trust could do this. And you know, it's not that she just faked a relationship, she faked an abusive relationship. So she stole her life. You know, she stole her reproductive years potentially. And she abused her.

Caroline 8:15

So I mean, even though all of those things were true, all those adjectives you used overall, you like it? What did you think?

Anne 8:22

Yeah, I mean, I said, I've been, you know, dying to talk about it. I saw my nieces and nephews last night who are university age, and I was like, have you guys seen Sweet Bobby? And they were like, No. I was so disappointed. it took me on a ride. I was so on edge watching it as I was trying to figure out what was going on. I mean, as I said, I knew it was catfishing. My first impression was that somebody's hacked and copied Bobby's account, and it's not him, because Bobby seems pretty normal. But I kept thinking, what's the end game here? I'm waiting for some motivation that makes sense, and I'm thinking it must be money. So I keep expecting Bobby to start, or the online Bobby that Kirats talking to, to start fishing for money. Like, oh, you know, we're gonna get engaged, but I need you to put. This deposit down and I'll pay you back or send me some cash for a deposit for our, the flat we're going to live in together. he never did, at least as far as we know. unless that's talked

Caroline 9:11

No.

Anne 9:12

podcast,

Caroline 9:13

there's, there's not been any money exchanged.

Anne 9:16

Well if anything, Simran lost money because she bought her presents. Simran only was wasting her time in the most cruel way possible, it was also costing her, which is just so weird. But yeah, I kept thinking, Simran actually knows Bobby, I never thought it was going to be her. That was such a twist for me., the cruelty of it just reminded me of middle school, as I said. my sister had that experience and I also remember there was this guy who long before the internet pretended to be friends with, you know, the weirdest kid in school who didn't fit in and. Everyone knew he was faking this friendship and everyone laughed as he fell for it. And then eventually there was this cruel reveal at lunch when the cool kid publicly revoked the friendship. And that moment has always stuck with me. The expression on this kid's face, I don't know, I was like 12, 13. And obviously I wasn't strong enough to do anything about it, even though I knew it was wrong. Now, is that just a kid being a kid? Did he grow out of that cruelty? Is he a horrible person now? Is he

Caroline 10:16

Ugh,

Anne 10:16

catfish people online because that was essentially a real life catfish

Caroline 10:21

totally.

Anne 10:23

child.

Caroline 10:24

That happened in Heather's, which was my favorite movie in middle school.

Anne 10:28

I think if the Heathers were around now, they would be catfishing people.

Caroline 10:32

Absolutely.

Anne 10:33

Yeah.

Caroline 10:34

Yeah. They don't even need a handwriting expert

Anne 10:37

What do you think about this? How the, I guess the setting of this impacts Kirat's decision making, because this was, I think, when did it start? 2008.

Caroline 10:45

I do recall in some of the podcasts I've listened to about this. There is a lot of discussion also culturally about in Europe, it being a lot more common to have like WhatsApp friends or, you know, digital friends that you don't see that often because they spend a bunch of time in, Egypt or wherever, like some somewhere else that's close by to Europe, but not in Europe. So I think that plays into it. Like we probably can't relate much to that being in the places that we are, isolated from other countries mostly. but also the years that it's in. certainly Facebook being a big a thing like having been invited to Facebook our senior year, I am now no longer on it,

Anne 11:26

back when it

Caroline 11:26

um,

Anne 11:28

Facebook

Caroline 11:28

and you had to be invited to be in it

Anne 11:31

and you

Caroline 11:32

like our.

Anne 11:32

at a university, right? You had to be in

Caroline 11:34

You had to have a college email, and that was a unique benefit that we had at our college. Your email address you kept for life. Other colleges, they expired, and so I remember us being like, we can stay on Facebook. Yay.

Anne 11:50

I think there was also an innocence to that time

Caroline 11:53

Mm-hmm.

Anne 11:54

media. It was all so exciting. I remember, becoming friends with. Anybody I met and not worrying about the implications of that at all. So I think that time really impacts Kirat's vulnerability.

Caroline 12:06

But also Simran. Simran was the one who was like, here's his shirt. She went to the hospital to see him. Which I mean, let me just say, if I don't get to say it again in this podcast, if someone tells you that they are in witness protection, they are not in witness protection,

Anne 12:26

I

Caroline 12:26

that is like. The rule of witness protection is that you cannot maintain your Facebook profile,. You cannot have simran. Your brother's ex-girlfriend come visit you in the hospital,

Anne 12:40

I know it was so, again, I don't wanna victim blame, but Kirat honey.

Caroline 12:45

Mm-hmm.

Anne 12:46

trusting and the, the fact that he couldn't even speak that he was only typing and yeah, the witness protection is just like red flag, red flag, red flag. And

Caroline 12:56

Also CIA or FBI. Like if somebody tells you I've got bad guys looking out for me. I need to be on the down low. That is a lie. That is a red flag lie. Just walk away.

Anne 13:07

but in Kirat's defense, these sociopaths always have an explanation. I mean,

Caroline 13:12

Sure.

Anne 13:13

know somebody who fell for a sociopath. After a bad breakup and the way they use that vulnerability, they make you feel ashamed. They make you withdraw. And I guess what's different about this is it's not actually an abusive man taking advantage of a woman having a bad breakup. It's her sociopathic cousin.

Caroline 13:29

Mm-hmm.

Anne 13:30

about kirat, I found this quote from her and she said, imagine somebody really close to you had suddenly died. And it's not one person, it's all of them. I had lost. Everybody. Normally, even if you lose a boyfriend, your girlfriends come and look after you. And so I just think that's another thing. Why are all Kirat's close friends, people she seems to only interact with on social media, and that's really

Caroline 13:55

Hmm.

Anne 13:56

And

Caroline 13:56

Yeah.

Anne 13:57

for her that that was the situation she was in. I guess she had, a couple cousins, of

Caroline 14:01

Yeah.

Anne 14:02

of whom was causing the whole problem. But

Caroline 14:04

Yeah. And I know she had put herself into her work, which is a thing. I also had experience with, it's a thing that is reflected in, most recently in White Lotus. There are people who just insert themselves and work and that becomes their life. And it is hard to have friendships that are in person when you do that. But then also, her family being a part of this really is cause I imagine since this is her cousin, that there are people that are taking sides because her cousin also has not had any consequences and as far as I know, her cousin is still living with her parents. So I can imagine there is. I'm not sure which cousin, if it's the mom or the dad's side, but there's a whole rift in the family then especially they say that kirat was the cool cousin that took care of the other cousins and stuff like that. Like that's a whole network that is shattered now because of this

Anne 15:03

and the family's probably circling the wagons to protect Simran.

Caroline 15:07

Part of it. And the other part, you know, part, which I think is great, like I think the fact that Kirat's parents participated in this documentary is great. That they were trying to explain their perspectives because the mother is also conned, you know?

Anne 15:22

Mm.

Caroline 15:23

and the father was held in the dark on purpose because the cousin knew that the father. Would insist on meeting,

Anne 15:30

Yeah.

Caroline 15:31

so yeah, I mean it's, it's rough.

Anne 15:34

Well, that was something that surprised me is that that the the Sikh Kenyan. English communities seem to be so tight knit, have so many,, interconnections that, you know, it just never got back to Kirat that No, no, no. Bobby's happily married with a kid living in Brighton. Like, do these

Caroline 15:53

Or didn't get shot.

Anne 15:55

Yeah.

Caroline 15:55

like I, the whole aspect of him getting shot,, was crazy to me that they would know of the family, they would know of him, but they would not be able to verify somehow that that didn't happen.

Anne 16:11

the other thing I wanna bring up with Kirat is the sunk cost fallacy. Because she's so desperate, she has put all this time into it that she just can't back out

Caroline 16:21

totally. And not only that, because she had that other relationship before she was with this other guy who was stringing her along for like 15 years who she thought she was gonna marry.

Anne 16:31

Yeah, and then I, I just feel so bad for her, with the gaslighting and there's that moment where she wants to run over Sanj, although this particular incident did not end anyone's death, I think there really was the potential for violence when she showed up at that house. And I couldn't really blame her. But, you know, Bobby didn't actually do anything wrong.

Caroline 16:50

Can I ask you if someone showed up at the house and was like, hi, hi. It's me, Andrew, and he was like, I don't know who this woman is. And then she was like, a liar. What? What would you say?

Anne 17:05

don't know. I mean, I think I'd be. I'd be pretty, you know, heartbroken and suspicious of him that he was lying. I'd like to think that like Sanj, I'd come around and realize, you know,

Caroline 17:17

Yeah.

Anne 17:18

if a woman showed up and accused my husband of having an affair, I'd be, you know, thinking about believing her despite

Caroline 17:24

she was like,

Anne 17:25

and trust Andrew, I.

Caroline 17:26

so last week. A baby swaddle showed up at our house. It's not addressed to anyone. And immediately I was like, who's the girl?

Anne 17:37

Which of my evil cousins is sending me Baby swaddles.

Caroline 17:40

I mean, it's crazy. she also knew all this stuff, she was like, I know your kid's name. I know you've been staying at your parents. I saw you last week.

Anne 17:49

Well, let's talk more about Simran. last week we talked about the psychology of the bad guy in pen pal and about how a lot of what he does doesn't make sense, but he's fictional. this is another person whose motivations don't make sense to me, but she's real apparently this started when she was 17. Maybe a little miss. Perfect type. A high achiever. From what I've read online, it sounds like she was profess is professionally successful. So

Caroline 18:12

Yeah.

Anne 18:13

how did she have the time and why?

Caroline 18:15

you know, they talk about them sleeping, and if she gets up to go to the bathroom, he gets angry

Anne 18:21

Yeah.

Caroline 18:21

it's not him, obviously it's simran. So it's like how. Did she sleep? do you think drugs were, this just occurs to me now, because I also know that she was professionally successful, so like how do you do both of those things? Like, I'm tired. I'm tired all the time, and I am not, I'm not doing that much,

Anne 18:42

yeah.

Caroline 18:43

60 people, and then sleeping all night online with somebody.

Anne 18:48

I can't to respond to lots of my text messages and they're just mine.

Caroline 18:54

I can't remember what we said five minutes ago. You know, I

Anne 18:57

Yeah.

Caroline 18:58

don't,

Anne 18:58

Well, and yeah, and she must have been monitoring Bobby and san's photos, you know, and like that was particularly diabolical, the finding the baby photos and then somehow manipulating

Caroline 19:08

I.

Anne 19:08

thinking that she's the one who chose that clothing and then sending her the photos baby, supposedly wearing them later. I mean, that's so much work. It's so much surveillance and this massive, complex web of lies to keep track of. As you said, I can barely manage to cook dinner on top of work and my kids, so.

Caroline 19:25

I mean, I feel bad because sometimes I watch something like that, like especially the clothing thing, and I'm a little jealous that I don't have that level of forethought and planning that I could decide to do something and also convince someone else and then have it work. I feel like I'm so responsive to. Whatever's happening to me all the time. I'm like, man, you thought of that and then you also talked that person into that, and you were successful at it multiple times, like

Anne 19:57

Yeah. Imagine if you could use that focus that Simran had for good instead of

Caroline 20:02

right,

Anne 20:02

evil.

Caroline 20:03

totally, yes. Which,

Anne 20:06

horrific senseless,

Caroline 20:07

just like to get.

Anne 20:08

mean girl manipulation.

Caroline 20:10

If I could do that to get my kids to like eat their dinner or do their homework,

Anne 20:15

Yeah. wouldn't that be nice if I could somehow manipulate my students into doing their homework? Yeah., in terms of other characters, Bobby and Sanj, they seem really lovely.

Caroline 20:24

They do., I appreciated them being in the documentary. I also appreciated that when at goes and tries to get some sort of justice, they're on her side. They're sending her everything they have, they're trying to like be supportive in her effort to get justice in a legal way. they seem great. I, I'm so sorry that Simran entered their lives by way of Bobby's little brother.

Anne 20:51

element of chance that they were in the periphery of a psychopath as we discussed last week.

Caroline 20:56

Yeah,

Anne 20:56

what do you think is the most disturbing part for. me, I think the baby clothes thing is pretty diabolical, as I said. Is there anything else for you?

Caroline 21:05

so she doesn't answer the question, but they do ask about intimacy

Anne 21:11

Hmm.

Caroline 21:12

and for me, I. I do feel like that should be something you can prosecute. They very likely engaged in phone, sex, or internet, sex, whatever. And there's no way it was consensual if it's not the person, you know. So I do feel like if I were trying to. Attack this from a legal side. That's the angle I would've gone with, and that is the thing I find the most horrific, I guess.

Anne 21:39

agree. Because I think it probably would've happened after eight years, right? Like. There would've been

Caroline 21:45

I mean,, they were on the phone all night. They asked the question, she won't really answer. It's, it seems apparent that something like that occurred.

Anne 21:53

And that is traumatic. When you find

Caroline 21:56

Yeah.

Anne 21:56

your younger cousin, do you have any criticism of the documentary?

Caroline 22:00

I don't know that I do but, um, I don't really have it. Do you?

Anne 22:21

Well, my only criticism, and this is something that maybe isn't possible, is that I want Simran side because

Caroline 22:27

Mm-hmm.

Anne 22:27

that is the most. Interesting aspect of this is the psychology of this woman who would do this. And we don't get that. And I guess that leads me to our unanswered questions. Like, is she doing now? Because you don't Do that unless you're a sociopath and you? don't give up being a sociopath, and you don't just quit being that cruel and manipulative. So she's scary. And what is she doing now?

Caroline 22:53

Yeah, I wanna know that. I wanna know a little bit more about the fam family dynamics part of it feels like me being nosy, but the other part is like they do invite you to understand the closeness of this family. Like they do talk about all the cousins. There's another cousin that talks There's the parents, there's all this mention of simran and mention of weddings where Karen has to sit at the kid table, which is so bad. But anyway, they talk a lot about this family dynamic, and I do think the family plays into this desire to get married. She had a lot of pressure externally. So I would love to know more about the relationship between Sen's parents and Kirat's parents. cause this is a cousin, so clearly there are siblings involved and we have heard from Kirat's parents. So I would, be interested to hear about their. feelings about what occurred, and if they're just like, I am devastated, I'm blindsided, or I, I kind of expected something, or you know, like, if there was some other element that we could learn,

Anne 24:04

Hmm.

Caroline 24:04

uh, from them, that, that might have been there before. I don't know.

Anne 24:09

I guess my other question is what is the criminal state of catfishing and why it. Crime like this impersonation, it's clearly morally reprehensible, but from what I can tell, it's only actually illegal if it's part of a financial scam. If it involves minors, explicit photos or actual stalking and know, the, there's the thing that Bobby is the legal victim here because he was impersonated, but Kira suffered more. So I feel like this needs to be against the law, even if the goal isn't theft. Because it's theft of trust. It's theft of mental health and years of her life. Yeah.

Caroline 24:43

I mean, I think, in the country I live in, there is a real issue with elected officials being of an age where they truly do not understand how the internet works. Like if you've ever watched, I. Zuckerberg be interviewed by the US government or anyone else. The guy who heads TikTok like it's baffling how much they don't understand so I, I think it's just an issue of the people who regulate don't really understand this world and so can't regulate it. I hope that's all it's about and not just like money is the only thing that matters. I dunno,

Anne 25:16

it might be about that.

Caroline 25:18

it might be both. Why not?

Anne 25:19

Yeah. Well, it's only gonna get worse with AI and, deep fake videos that can be made, so they need to deal with it.

Caroline 25:27

Yeah, I mean, and, and that is something that Karat is dedicated to, is trying to create an infrastructure because she's been very disappointed that she doesn't have a legal recourse and that there should, and you agree? I agree. I think most people agree.

Anne 25:43

So what do we think is the deeper horror beneath the surface? For me, one of the things is the societal and cultural pressure on women to partner up. I think comments regularly that if she were younger, she would've walked away, but she was so desperate for that relationship. She felt so much pressure there was that sense of failure if it didn't work. She actually describes the relationship as too important to fail, and that makes people make terrible decisions.

Caroline 26:08

Yeah, and we all know situations where people have made those decisions or been the people who made those decisions, this is what I want for my life, and, the clock is ticking as they say. I. And you just feel like you have to. I think that's pretty horrific. I think the betrayal aspect for me really comes to the forefront because. I think it's just so shocking when someone isn't who you thought they were, you know? And it's not about Bobby not being who she thought he was, but her cousin, you know, like that, that this person who is close in her life, she really didn't know at all. It seems,

Anne 26:48

yeah. It makes me think of, Anne Rule and Ted Bundy.

Caroline 26:51

Yes, totally. My God. I love that.

Anne 26:54

I think another Horror beneath the surface is our innate trust of certain authority figures. And I think it's not coincidental that was a doctor and Raj Veer is also a doctor and therefore he must be trustworthy. And how many true crime shows are about doctors who killed their wives? And I think Simran did that quite deliberately as a tool to manipulate.

Caroline 27:16

Yeah,

Anne 27:17

And I'm not saying that all doctors are evil. Hashtag not all doctors, just that inherently trusting them because their doctors is dangerous. And I think Simran took advantage of that.

Caroline 27:27

Or religious figures, you know, it's often in, in true crime stories. These Yeah. Authority figures. Yeah, I would agree.

Anne 27:34

him. Right. And maybe that's

Caroline 27:35

Yeah. Yeah.

Anne 27:37

scary do you think this is?

Caroline 27:38

Like of one to 10. This is like an i I think this is like, this is high. This is very high. Yeah. This is like a four or five

Anne 27:46

Okay.

Caroline 27:46

for me because it's so pervasive, consistent, constant, and long. Like this took a lot of effort and dedication over a long time just to lie just to.

Anne 28:01

for no reason. mean, I wasn't scared. I was disturbed. I like to think there's no way I could fall for this

Caroline 28:08

Mm-hmm.

Anne 28:08

online like this. Like, as I said, I met my husband in my twenties. I've never had to deal with online dating. I. I don't have relationships with people I don't know, online. but then I think, okay, until we started this podcast, you and I have talked for years online,

Caroline 28:21

Mm-hmm.

Anne 28:22

actually talking. We see each other like once a year in person. and there are quite a few old friends that I might have that similar online only relationship and. It's mostly text and messenger. And now I know I'm talking to you because I can see your face, but what if someone mirrored your account when we were texting? Would I know? perhaps it's hubris to think I'm not capable of falling for something like this.

Caroline 28:42

I mean I think like in the situation of you and I, we know how each other talks.

Anne 28:47

Hmm.

Caroline 28:47

If I was engaging with you for like two days and didn't use a gif, I think you would know it wasn't me.

Anne 28:54

Yep.

Caroline 28:56

I do think it would be challenging if you were just getting to know someone. And I find that's true in a lot of true crime things like. I watched Gabby Petito recently and they were talking about like, we don't think these text messages came from her.'cause people can tell people they know, they can tell how they talk, but yeah, someone you didn't really know from the beginning, there would be no way to tell.

Anne 29:17

Hmm.

Caroline 29:17

if you, if you had a person, this is the thing I just keep coming back to because I think you're right. In general. That if you had. A cousin, a person in your life that you were close to, like, let's say me because I'm basically your cousin. Since your dad loves me so much.

Anne 29:33

Yes.

Caroline 29:35

let's say that I was like, I just saw him in the hospital. Here's a shirt. If I was validating your experience.

Anne 29:43

I would believe you.

Caroline 29:44

You would believe me, because you trust me, because we love each other. That's the horrifying aspect of this.

Anne 29:51

yeah. Simran, why are you so mean?

Caroline 29:55

I know.

Anne 29:55

What do we learn about survival? I think Bobby and San, you share too much. We touched on this with pen pal and that made them vulnerable. So be careful about what you share because. Fair or not in this world, it could be taken advantage of. Someone I know got taken in by the hey mom scam they had taken pictures of one of her sons off Facebook, put it onto the, this new phone account. So when they texted her, it came up as her son's picture and he asked for money and she sent it a couple

Caroline 30:25

Ugh.

Anne 30:26

bucks. yeah, this stuff happens.

Caroline 30:30

whenever anyone asks me for something, even my husband was like getting insurance or something and he was like, what's your social texting me? And I called him, you know, like I called him and I was like, I'm not texting you anything like that. I think voice or face you need, if it's something personal, and that doesn't mean fi

Anne 30:49

though

Caroline 30:50

financial. Well, no, no, no. I mean like literally face-to-face. because like I, you know, now you can, you don't need to have an iPhone to FaceTime. You can do it over Messenger, WhatsApp, you know, like whatever. Be engaging face-to-face. Be on the phone and recognize the person's voice,

Anne 31:08

have a safe word

Caroline 31:10

Yeah, it shouldn't just be for financial things, like it should be anything intimate.

Anne 31:14

Yeah. I guess the other thing is don't trust people you don't know in real life, and I guess realistically. Simran is someone she knew in real life. We recently had a cop come in at my school to scare the kids about sending nude photos and teach them about online safety. And this is the kind of lesson expected to give these kids a lot. And they're super not receptive to it. They think they've heard it all. and so I was talking about online safety the other day and I heard some of the boys talking about like, oh, if you're looking for a good time, they made some kind of joke and sort of marched over to them and. They were appalled that I'd heard, but I told them the story of this, 15-year-old boy our state who was catfished into sending nude photos to a girl who he thought he was in relationship with. obviously wasn't who she said she was. once these nude photos that he took were out, she threatened to send them to everyone he knew. He was humiliated, he killed himself. He met someone online, he trusted her, and now he's dead. And it's tragic. Yeah. So watch out for Red Flags if your online boyfriend says they're in witness protection,

Caroline 32:16

Yeah,

Anne 32:17

get back on Tinder. Start over.

Caroline 32:20

totally.

Anne 32:21

let's see. Caroline, do you have a palate cleanser?

Caroline 32:23

Yeah, so hopefully this'll be a palate cleanser for folks. So this week I am in charge for the first time of the book fair at my kids' school. And this is my palate cleanser because when I was little, my parents were getting divorced and we were bankrupt. so when I was going to the book Fair as a child, I was with people who could go and buy books and I couldn't. But I wanted to be part of this fair because it was something that I. Always looked upon with, wouldn't that be nice kind of eyes as a child? The message I guess is just finding a way to heal your childhood wounds, the ways that you can,

Anne 33:06

Hmm.

Caroline 33:06

and this is how I'm gonna fix that,

Anne 33:08

okay. That's lovely.

Caroline 33:11

but just in case that isn't relevant to you also. White Lotus Elli was great. I think this season was even better than last season. I think the first season was the best this season second, and I would put last season as third. Would you agree? Yeah.

Anne 33:27

I don't know. I'd have to rewatch season, season two. Definitely. Season one is my favorite though.

Caroline 33:31

Yeah. Season one is great.

Anne 33:32

I miss a certain character

Caroline 33:34

I know.

Anne 33:34

one and season two,

Caroline 33:35

I know, I know.

Anne 33:36

spoil it, but, So. If you like this, you should check out Baby Reindeer on Netflix. that's another creepy stalker thing. if you're interested in people being able to hide who they truly are, I recommend the Stranger Beside Me by Anne Rule about

Caroline 33:54

I recommend that also.

Anne 33:55

Yes. I just finished Killers of the Flower Moon, which is also. about person who creates a web of lies, but in like the early 19 hundreds and is just such a different, image of themselves to the world than who they really are. and the talented Mr. Ripley, that's another one

Caroline 34:12

Mm.

Anne 34:13

Sociopathic people being false. Uh, having said all that, It reminded me Of fun, Bobby from friends. Do you remember that?

Caroline 34:18

Of course, of course. Yeah. Fun Bobby, who participated in the drinking of four bottles of wine between 7 people and suddenly it was a shock. Yes, I remember.

Anne 34:29

That would've happened before we even went out. Um.

Caroline 34:32

even know if it was four It might been two..

Anne 34:34

Yeah, friends did not reflect the reality of Gen X binge drinking culture at all. Now do you have anything you'd like to recommend relation to this?

Caroline 34:45

BTK is another person who was this upstanding citizen. You know, any sort of documentary or anything that you could. Watch her listen to about BTK. I think his daughter is quite vocal as well, so you'll hear how how shocking it was for her. But yeah, stranger beside me, I also highly, highly recommend. That is a, a great book.

Anne 35:08

Let's put it on the list for the future.

Caroline 35:10

Yeah. Yeah.

Anne 35:12

okay. Next recommendation, your homework assignment for the next two weeks, weeks. homework assignment. Okay. Your homework assignment for the next two weeks is to watch the film. It follows where a young woman is relentlessly pursued by a supernatural entity, I think it vaguely connects to what we've been talking about with Pen Pal and sweet Bobby. Okay. Thanks for listening. Please do all the things podcasters asked you to do. Write a review on iTunes, like, and subscribe. If you have friends who wish they could talk on and on about true crime and horror, tell them about our podcast. Finally, if like Shirley Jackson, you delight in what you fear, join us in two weeks here at Drawn to Darkness., Special thanks to Nancy Ano for our cover art. You can find her on Facebook at Nancy Ano Art and Harry Kid for our intro and outro music. You can find him on Spotify.