3 - It Follows by David Robert Mitchell

Do you still check the backseat before driving? Are you worried the call is coming from inside the house? Welcome back to Drawn to Darkness, the podcast where we explore our obsessions with horror and true crime. This week, we dissect It Follows—David Robert Mitchell’s dreamy, dread-drenched indie horror film about a sexually transmitted curse that never stops walking… slowly… toward you. We dive into horror tropes, uncomfortable symbolism, the ethics of passing on the curse, and whether being beautiful makes you safer—or just a more convenient carrier. We break down its ambiguous setting, genre-bending aesthetic (Napoleon Dynamite-meets-80s slasher film?), and the eerie effectiveness of slow, silent menace. We debate a baffling pool plan, and whether you should sleep with strangers to stay alive (spoiler: we vote no), whether aging or assault is the true horror, and get very creeped out by the Tall Man. And just for fun, this episode hearkens back to our 90s teen years, with references to Dawson’s Creek,  90210, Jordan Catalano, and the Backstreet Boys. 

Spoiler alert and trigger warning: 

This episode contains spoilers and mentions of sexual assault and suicide, and the film has gruesome imagery, stalking, sexual assault, and jump scares.

Recommendations If You Liked It Follows:

• Terminator 1 & 2 (another unrelenting hunter)
• Charade (just because the characters watch it)
• Barbarian, 8 Mile, & Don’t Breathe (grim Detroit vibes + housing horror)
• The Ring (unstoppable supernatural curse)
• Let the Right One In (slow-burn horror + pool finale)
• Smile (cursed by trauma)
• Urban Legend, Scream, & Disturbing Behavior (90s teen horror nostalgia)
• Friday the 13th / Halloween (slasher canon)

Palate Cleanser:

Feeling haunted? Rewatch Season 1 of Schitt’s Creek. It’s joyful and full of Alexis energy. Also, shout-out to Toy Story 2—because after forensic files, you need those bloopers.

Homework:

Watch The Fox Hollow Murders. As always, tell your friends, leave a review on iTunes, email your thoughts (or mannequin-related nightmares) to DrawnToDarknessPod@gmail.com.. See you in two weeks on Drawn to Darkness.

Special thanks to Nancy Azano for providing our cover art. You can find her on Instagram @nancyazano. 

And Harry Kidd for composing and recording our opening score. His Instagram is @harryjkidd and you can also find him on Spotify. https://open.spotify.com/artist/43BiFkkOHykD8n9g4z0Qd7

Want more analysis of It Follows? 

https://henridecorinth.wordpress.com/2015/03/31/on-mitchells-it-follows-2014-literary-allusions/

https://the-artifice.com/it-follows/

Transcript

Anne 0:11

Welcome back to Drawn to Darkness, a biweekly podcast where we discuss our favorite horror and true crime. My name is Annie, and I'll be introducing Caroline to my favorite horror movies, podcasts, TV shows, and books.

Caroline 0:23

And my name is Caroline, and I'll be doing the same from the true crime perspective.

Anne 0:28

Caroline, before we get into this, I wanna ask you, have you ever been followed?

Caroline 0:33

Gosh, if I have, I was unaware.

Anne 0:37

So you survived it. If you have,

Caroline 0:38

Well, yes, clearly I've survived. Everything

Anne 0:40

Yes.

Caroline 0:41

has happened to me. But no, I'm not aware of ever being followed. Actually there was one time when we were up in the lake house and my youngest. Wouldn't sleep. And I got so frustrated that I threw him in the backseat of the car and started driving in the down the road. And then I convinced myself someone was following me, but when I pulled over, they just drove past me. So.

Anne 1:03

I think that's what happened to me. I convinced myself I was being followed. was babysitting, and this was at a time when I was very into urban legends. I think probably Urban Legend had recently come out. I was very aware of the calls coming from inside the house, legend. There was a time when I was babysitting and my boyfriend knew where I was and. Put one of those red laser pointers that you can get your cat to chase

Caroline 1:28

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Anne 1:30

you know, the killers in the backseat, all that stuff. So I left this house, I was babysitting and somebody was following me. now I lived pretty much on the highway, so the likelihood is that they were just heading out of town happened to be on the same route as me, but I scared the shit outta myself and drove to the police station and sat in the parking lot and then they. Continued on their way, so

Caroline 1:52

I mean, well, your instincts are strong, very good survival instincts to drive to the police station. I just pulled over on the side of the road, I would've been pretty screwed if the person was actually following me.

Anne 2:02

on the side of the road to make it really easy for them to murder you,

Caroline 2:05

Yeah,

Anne 2:06

in

Caroline 2:06

yeah,

Anne 2:07

New Hampshire.

Caroline 2:08

yeah. But as far as urban legends go, like the one with the flashing lights absolutely was the one that terrified me the most. you know, the, the car following you flashing their lights.

Anne 2:20

at night with not a lot of light, I think about that to this day. Well, the movie we're going to talk about today, if you haven't already guessed, is. Right. Actually, you don't need to guess. We told you last week. It's, it follows, spoiler reminders. We will be talking exactly about what happens in this movie. So if you have a problem with that, go off and watch it and come back. Okay. Pausing for you to do that. Here we go. David Robert Mitchell's film, it follows the story of me and my dog in my house, but Ching. Just kidding. It's about a teenage girl named Jay who discovers after sleeping with her new boyfriend Hugh, that he has deliberately passed on a sexually transmitted curse that will relentlessly pursue and ultimately kill her if she doesn't pass it on. having sex with someone else, if it kills her, it will come back for you and then to whoever gave it to him and so on. basically, Jay has caught a supernatural STD. It's unstoppable, it's relentless. It can appear as anyone, including someone you know and love, and there doesn't seem to be a way to beat it. So what adjective would you use to describe this movie?

Caroline 3:35

I mean,, it's boring to say, but it's. Definitely creepy. the actors convey the, creepy eeriness factor very well.

Anne 3:44

Yeah, I would go with unsettling, menacing, and nightmarish. I think there's a real dreamlike quality because of the details of the setting that really don't make sense. So I wanted to start with. Setting when we talk about this and how that contributes to this creepy menacing, dreadful, nightmarish feel that we're talking about here. so it's set in Detroit. starts in a suburb. It's grim. It feels kind of semi abandoned, which reminds me a lot of barbarian. I don't know if you've seen that movie.

Caroline 4:14

No.

Anne 4:15

Well, we'll have to watch that someday because it is also

Caroline 4:17

Yeah.

Anne 4:18

In Detroit, it's an Airbnb situation where two people end up at the same Airbnb with, frightening consequences. it also reminded me of Napoleon Dynamite.

Caroline 4:28

Oh, interesting. How,

Anne 4:30

I think Jay looks like summer and.

Caroline 4:31

oh, yeah.

Anne 4:32

know, the cars are really old and everything's kind of run down and I don't know, there's like granny crochet blankets and an old TV within antenna above ground pools. It's just got this dated feel that reminds me of Napoleon Dynamite.

Caroline 4:44

Yeah, I was actually a little bit curious about the year, looking at the cars and everything. The main movie that I think an associate Detroit with is Eight Mile. There was a lot of oh, this is familiar, these abandoned houses, where, bad things can occur and or you could hide out, I suppose, if you need to.

Anne 5:03

I think there's another movie. I can't remember what it's called. I'll have to look it up, but I think it's also sent in Detroit in a kind of semi abandoned neighborhood, another horror movie this group of people in their twenties to target a blind man living in one of those abandoned houses because they think he's got money. And again, it ends in disaster, but it's awesome. It's a really great movie, added to the list, if I can remember the name. Yeah, but then at the same time they have weird modern details like the scallop shell phone e-reader that Yara is using all the time. Do

Caroline 5:35

Oh yeah. and also I was very confused. About what season is it? Because there's a bunch of scenes where the outfits of the different characters do not match temperature wise. The main girl especially, is wearing essentially nothing, and the dudes are in like layers of jackets, you know, like, a flannel with a Jordan Catalano esque jacket over top, you know?

Anne 5:59

stonewashed Jean jacket is very Jordan Catalano.

Caroline 6:03

Right.

Anne 6:03

And

Caroline 6:04

Yeah.

Anne 6:04

Hugh the boyfriend with his goatee and his hair and his earring. It took me

Caroline 6:09

Mm.

Anne 6:10

figure out who he reminded me of, but I think it's Brian from the Backstreet Boys.

Caroline 6:14

Yeah, it definitely had a nineties vibe, for sure.

Anne 6:17

It had like this seventies, eighties slasher vibe on the one hand, and then a lot of the clothes is nineties, but then you've got modern technology that we don't even have, like the scallop shell e-reader. So I think this is all deliberate to give it this nebulous, surreal feeling that just, yeah. Adds to that creepiness. what did it remind you of? I mean, I know you, I said Napoleon Dynamite. Was there anything that it reminded you of?

Caroline 6:42

it definitely reminded me of eight Mile, You know, there is a big element of Eight Mile that talks about these abandoned houses and how they get used for horrific acts. And there's a moment of rebellion where they burn one down, where a little girl was assaulted. and so when they were driving through Detroit, I was very much reminded of that and I thought, oh, how interesting to think of these abandoned houses as also being a refuge for someone. That's something that I never would've thought of.

Anne 7:11

Mm. Interesting.

Caroline 7:12

'cause the boyfriend's like, hi, hiding out there or whatever.

Anne 7:15

Yeah, that's creepy. Where they finally find his house and he's got like all the cans on the window so he can warn himself when the thing has finally

Caroline 7:22

Totally.

Anne 7:23

I love that

Caroline 7:24

Yeah. Yeah, me too. and also to your point about urban legend it did remind me of that era of movies like, what was that Disturbing behavior movie with Katie Holmes. I know, me too.

Anne 7:37

Yeah. I mean, I, it reminds me of a lot of just horror movies in general with horror tropes. Like for example, in the first scene we see Annie running in heels, and it's like, take your heels off.

Caroline 7:47

I, I mean, that is literally my first note is why is this girl wearing heels in her house and why is she still wearing them when she's running, and why does she run in that weird circle? Which then I grew to understand. But at first I was like, dude, this is not the shortest distance between two points you're.

Anne 8:04

I think she's just giving

Caroline 8:05

Loop.

Anne 8:06

Right.

Caroline 8:06

Yeah.

Anne 8:07

and then, after Hugh and Jay have sex, she wakes up strapped to a chair in her underwear. So, you know, my first thought is this is a slasher serial killer thing. What's happening next? And of course it's not that.

Caroline 8:18

I also made the note, why doesn't he let her wear clothes while he's showing her this horrific thing? She must be freezing. I.

Anne 8:26

Yes, which goes back to your, what is this temperature, because it kind of seems like fall and sometimes they're wearing a lot of clothes, but then she's also in the pool and they're kind of sunning themselves by the lake.

Caroline 8:37

Yeah, they're at the lake at one point and I'm like, oh, it must be summer. But I mean, I'm sure it gets cold at night in Detroit. Like it does lots of places,

Anne 8:44

then there's the other trope of sex as a death sentence. we go back to, scream,

Caroline 8:50

Scream. Yep.

Anne 8:51

Yep. but I think, the difference between this and all those other horror movies is that it's really sad, dispassionate sex. You know, not one sex scene is sexy because it's forcing the victim to victimize someone else, which would probably take the pleasure out of it because you're damning someone. So there's this sense of resignation, I feel like if this movie were made in the seventies or eighties, it would be like this raunchy horn fest, but it's. Very much not that

Caroline 9:17

Yeah, totally. Another trope that I wrote down was literally, has anyone ever left pornos in an alley?

Anne 9:24

are there pornos in an alley? I don't remember that.

Caroline 9:26

they, they come upon pornos in an alley. I think the, the friend who becomes the lover, when he's hanging out with the sister, they like find a bunch of pornos in an alley, and it's like, who, when, when has that ever occurred? When has anyone ever left pornos in an alley?

Anne 9:41

their porno, I guess, right? If you have them,

Caroline 9:44

I would think so. Or just throw it out with the rest of your crap. Like, like why would it be in an alley separately?

Anne 9:49

Yeah. And I must not have registered that scene at all.'cause I can't remember that. Hmm. There's a lot of strange sexual politics in this. You know, we've got the sex is a deadly sin. Sex is a death sentence. Going back to Randy and scream, you can never have sex, but it doesn't feel like it's slut shaming

Caroline 10:05

no, I, I have a question actually. So when she goes in the water she sees all those like bros having their bro fishing day do you think she slept with all those guys? I.

Anne 10:16

I think she slept with at least one of them.

Caroline 10:18

Yeah,

Anne 10:18

the implication that she's like,

Caroline 10:20

yeah, that it's like

Anne 10:21

pass this on.

Caroline 10:22

Yeah, that's what I thought too.

Anne 10:24

And I imagine that wasn't a, a fun, sexy time for her. Probably pretty miserable. Yeah. Because she seems miserable after it. There's that sense of dread and shame, you know, that you've done something you wish you hadn't. some people say this is about mortality the inevitability of death. There's a lot of, references to aging. You know, you know the girl Yara, she's reading from. The scallop shell reader, that weird thing, and she's reading these quotes, you know, from the idiot, which I had to look up. Dusty's the Idiot. the quote is, and the most terrible agony may not be in the wounds themselves, but in knowing. For certain that within an hour, that within 10 minutes, then within half a minute, and now at this very instant, your soul will leave your body and you will no longer be a person. And this is certain, the worst thing is that it is certain. So there's these literary references, the fact that they're playing old made at one point. that leads a lot of people to interpret this as,, a reflection on the inevitability of more of our own deaths and that it is chasing us. I found an article that goes really deeply into it, and I'll put it in the show notes. with all like the symbolism and the colors and the references. I don't feel like I want to go that deeply into it right here, but if you are interested in that, you can look it up.

Caroline 11:34

Yeah, that is interesting. I definitely. connected the quote to the danger. but I don't know that I really thought of it as, I mean, it makes sense now. I don't know that I see death as something horrific coming. I mean, I know it's coming at some point, but I don't know that I dread it the way that that quote would describe,

Anne 11:56

it's

Caroline 11:56

you know?

Anne 11:56

like the entity and it follows, it's pretty dreadful.

Caroline 11:59

Sure, sure. while I was watching it, I was like, this isn't scary. I'm not scared. I'm not scared of a sex monster. You know, but that night when I woke up, I. saw nothing but the old lady and I could not get back to sleep. Old lady. A thousand percent. The old lady walking through that school yard.

Anne 12:18

Well, that's another piece of evidence. that supports the theory that this is about aging, that the first person to appear to Jay is an old woman. So are these different appearances of the entity related to Jay's fears? so is aging her fear? At one point when they're at the lake, like a little boy pops his head through the fence, and I think

Caroline 12:39

Yeah, it is a little boy.

Anne 12:40

that is. Peeping, like being a bit of a peeping tom with her. There's that male gaze aspect, you know, like there's little boys watching her in the pool and I think there's at some point somebody watching her change Jay is viewed as this beauty, right? And everybody likes her. Paul's has always had a crush on her. So she's somebody who's used to being looked at admired, but there there's also a lot of discomfort in that being viewed as an object. so maybe there's another fear of hers, and then maybe there's the fear of sexual assault, because I feel like a lot of those entities appeared in a threatening way. Whether it was someone who had been the victim of sexual assault or was about to sexually assault her, you know, there's the man, the new, the nudity, like half the time they're naked, which is scary.

Caroline 13:23

Yeah, and the tall man totally gave me, uh, twin Peaks vibes.

Anne 13:27

that is my scariest moment. When you think. She's been scared by the person Down in the kitchen, she's upstairs. Her friends are like, it's okay. You've got that breaking of tension and then it's like a second too long before he comes in. And then I think the noise that, whatever the sound effect is, particularly discordant. And was what I was thinking of in the middle of the night when I woke up to go to the bathroom, was that tall man. and yeah, he looks like the tall man that we see in the red room in Twin Peaks, right.

Caroline 13:54

Exactly. Yeah.

Anne 13:55

My husband and kids were camping in the backyard that night. And that's a perfect time for me to watch a horror movie by myself. uh, yeah, it, that got to me, that scene. And I knew it was coming because this is the second time I've watched this movie and I knew at some point that tall man is gonna walk through that door and it still got me. It's best jump, scare.

Caroline 14:14

Yeah, I mean, when I was looking things up online after, it does seem like the tall man is the most popular

Anne 14:20

Yeah.

Caroline 14:20

threatening moment for people.

Anne 14:23

Well, yeah, I mean, I think also, so yeah, we've got, what do these things represent? Is it of sexual assault? Is it, and the mom, when Greg gets it,

Caroline 14:32

I mean, that was horrific.

Anne 14:35

So what was it going to do to her and what did it do to Annie, because that's another scene that really got me, and I forgot about that. And I, actually felt quite guilty for recommending this to you when that scene happened. You know, when like we see Annie run away and then she's saying goodbye to her dad on the phone, and then it just cuts to her mangled body. And then I was like, oh, I feel bad. I made Caroline watch this.

Caroline 14:56

Yeah, I was like, I might need to remind Annie Gore is not. Gore is part of the reason that I prefer true crime because they usually,

Anne 15:05

Skirt

Caroline 15:06

out of respect for victims, you know, it's blurry. You don't, you don't really have to see the details.

Anne 15:12

there's

Caroline 15:12

phone call too was, was hard. Yeah. There's no respect for victims in horror movies. No.

Anne 15:18

not. What did you think of Greg?

Caroline 15:21

I definitely did not get the right impression of their relationship in the beginning. Like in the beginning it felt to me like, oh, he is. More, like longing for them than, you know, like they were popular girls and he was like, oh, I wish I was cool enough. But then it's like, oh, it, I guess it was kind of the other way around. I think his sister says something judgmental about them, when the police are over at the house or whatever. But I thought that he was more, Wanting to be close to them, it sounds like at some point he hurt her emotionally.

Anne 15:52

Mm.

Caroline 15:53

and, you know, kind of,

Anne 15:54

the cool guy.

Caroline 15:55

yeah, I did not get that. I don't know. I mean, I clearly, I was not interpreting it correctly.

Anne 16:01

Why do you think Greg offered to take on the curse

Caroline 16:05

I don't know,, first of all, I was like, they're just doing this in the hospital, As if people aren't going to notice that, how often do nurses come in and interrupt you when you're staying in a hospital? but I guess maybe he also feels invincible

Anne 16:20

Yeah, I thought it was a bit of

Caroline 16:21

and,

Anne 16:21

hubris, that he didn't really believe it and he just wanted to get laid. Like he's that kind of guy. But then Paul comes at this from a different perspective. He legitimately wants to save Jay because he's head over heels in love with her, right? Why did he

Caroline 16:34

Yeah,

Anne 16:35

Like I know he knows it's real,

Caroline 16:38

well, I mean, clearly he thinks he can kill it cause they have that whole scene at the end where they're like drawing it in.

Anne 16:44

Doesn't Paul sleep with Jay after the pool scene?

Caroline 16:46

Yeah. So he thinks it's dead.

Anne 16:48

Okay. They do show, the blood in the water.

Caroline 16:51

Did the gun scene in the pool, by the way, remind you of Star Wars

Anne 16:56

Star

Caroline 16:57

and he's like shooting? Yeah. The scene in the desert where he is like a little higher, just a little higher.

Anne 17:02

No.

Caroline 17:03

is like shooting the thing is holding her leg in the water, but he can't see it,

Anne 17:09

Yes.

Caroline 17:11

And he's just like shooting a gun.

Anne 17:13

down. Okay. That

Caroline 17:14

yeah, yeah,

Anne 17:15

Yes.

Caroline 17:17

yeah. I was like, this is insane. He can't see what he is shooting at and how they're in water too. And there's, I know they've done all these experiments about like what water does to bullets. In terms of their speed and trajectory, in terms of things being unrealistic and fantastical the whole pool situation I was like, what is even going on here?

Anne 17:37

there's a lot of criticism for that pool scene as just not making sense. But know, I didn't

Caroline 17:42

A thousand percent.

Anne 17:43

what else are you gonna do? You've gotta try something. Right? I think they had noticed some kind of electrical signal with it, so maybe they thought they could electrocute it. And obviously that didn't work, but.

Caroline 17:51

Yeah, because I was confused. I was like, okay, they're putting all these electrical things around the pool because they're gonna electrocute it. But then she's in the pool and she's in it for too long, and then the things start flying and I'm just like, this was so ill-conceived.

Anne 18:03

Yes. Well,

Caroline 18:04

Um.

Anne 18:05

or I guess they're really more in, they're more in college. Right? But they're still

Caroline 18:09

they're college.

Anne 18:10

Right. I don't

Caroline 18:12

Right.

Anne 18:12

have a better plan if I were that age

Caroline 18:14

yeah. And I also, like, they're so lucky this pool was available. what is the deal with this pool? Why is it open? Why is there no one else there? it's lit and chlorinated and like,

Anne 18:27

Yeah.

Caroline 18:27

like, I, I'm so confused by it in Detroit too. I couldn't find a, something like that around me.

Anne 18:34

No, but

Caroline 18:36

It's just like available, like, I don't

Anne 18:38

that you could just get into, I don't know. Yeah, because it looks like a nice pool.

Caroline 18:41

It does. It's totally clean,

Anne 18:43

it looks like it's in an asylum, in the middle of an open field, but the pool itself is, it's a nice pool.

Caroline 18:49

yeah, yeah. But the pool is, is what inspired next week,

Anne 18:54

I thought so. I was gonna ask you that. Yes.

Caroline 18:57

but I did make a note here. How are they already in the mood like about after that whole scene and then they have sex? I probably would not be in the mood to have sex especially after she. Had sex with strangers just to get this thing off. Like, I, I just feel like my relationship with sex might need a recovery time period

Anne 19:15

Fair.

Caroline 19:15

you know.

Anne 19:17

I think they didn't think I. It was dead at that point. I think Paul, out of love for Jay unrequited, I guess it's somewhat requited by the end, but is willing to sacrifice himself because then the next scene we see is him going off to find a sex worker to pass it on too. So why would he do that if he didn't believe it was still following him?

Caroline 19:36

Uh, I don't think I registered that.

Anne 19:38

Now I think they know it's not dead. have sex, he takes it on. He goes and pays a sex worker and passes it to her on the assumption that she will pass it on pretty quickly, but it's not gone and they know it. That's what I

Caroline 19:50

Well, and that, and that comes with the complication of this, the, the boyfriend from the beginning who's sleeping with as many people as possible. This thing at some point would get quite busy.

Anne 20:01

But I don't think you can pass it on to multiple people. I think you pass it on to the first person. So like if you sleep with 10 people, I don't think it matters. It's just that first person and if that person gets killed, it's back at you you don't know when it's coming

Caroline 20:13

Oh

Anne 20:14

That was my impression. and I'm pretty sure Greg passes it on as well because you see like Greg talking with some girls in a flirty way in like a cafeteria or a. Mall food court or something. So my impression is

Caroline 20:25

right.

Anne 20:26

not Jay, sorry, Greg used his charm to pass it on, even though he feels pretty invincible and ultimately it doesn't work.

Caroline 20:34

Yeah, I guess like I was thinking it would follow each one,

Anne 20:37

no,

Caroline 20:38

I guess that makes sense.

Anne 20:40

knows? the director says there's no logic to it. You can't really explain a nightmare. So that's another thing to keep in mind when we're talking about what it all means.

Caroline 20:49

Yeah. Well, you know, they should be clearer

Anne 20:52

They should be clear.

Caroline 20:53

about it.

Anne 20:54

they

Caroline 20:54

rules should be clearer.

Anne 20:56

unclear.

Caroline 20:56

Yeah. Big.

Anne 20:57

a scream rules where everything is really clear. Right.

Caroline 21:00

Right.

Anne 21:01

she sees in the pool? Like at one point, you know, her sister says, what do you see? And she says that she doesn't wanna say. Do you have a

Caroline 21:08

Oh,

Anne 21:08

a theory.

Caroline 21:09

what's the theory? I don't have a theory,

Anne 21:12

dad that

Caroline 21:13

and her dad is dead. I.

Anne 21:14

Her dead dad,

Caroline 21:15

Okay. and Because I also was like, what is the deal with these parents? There's like one scene with parents talking,

Anne 21:21

The implication that something bad happened to the dad because Greg's family seems judgmental of their family. The mom seems to be and drinking, and they don't even consider going to parents for help. It's not. On their radar at, at all. But it's not just their parents, it's Greg's parents as well, I think. Because when they go off to the lake, it's like, well, nobody's going to even notice I'm gone.

Caroline 21:45

Yeah,, but that's a. Another kind of trope of whenever there's something about teenagers, their parents have to be the only, the walshes are engaged in their children. Every other parent is in the whole world, is not the walshes is and the Leary,

Anne 21:58

I

Caroline 21:58

right?

Anne 21:59

want, teenage protagonist to be in charge, you have to write the parents out in some way,

Caroline 22:04

A hundred percent.

Anne 22:05

write the parents out., the entity appears as the parents. I think, you know, it definitely appears

Caroline 22:09

Right,

Anne 22:10

Greg's mom and then. lot of people are saying the reason she won't tell her sister what she sees is because she's seeing her dead father, which is particularly frightening, especially if he is going to assault her, which is what happened to Greg, and I think the most disturbing

Caroline 22:24

right.

Anne 22:24

even if it's maybe not the goriest scene, I.

Caroline 22:27

Yes. I, I wrote Greg and his mom. Okay. It's, it, I don't, I used a four letter word.

Anne 22:33

Okay.

Caroline 22:34

It's bad what I wrote.

Anne 22:37

at the end, Jay and Paul are holding hands and you can see somebody in the background. What do you think's going on there? Do you think that's it?

Caroline 22:45

I mean, I think that's the implication is that it's it, and it would make sense. I mean, I, I definitely have questions about the speed of this thing because I know they say it's slow, but not stupid, and you see the speed of it. Most of the time, and I guess the tall guy is the fastest moving version of it, which might also be why he's freaky, or play into it subconsciously. they have that scene at the lake. She drives away, she gets in an accident that nobody really witnesses, She goes into a cornfield, so she's not on the road but somehow. Someone comes upon it, calls an ambulance, the ambulance makes it there, gets her out and brings her to the hospital before the thing makes she, she was driving for like one minute.

Anne 23:30

Right. Yeah. Why didn't it catch up with her? Then? I'm

Caroline 23:32

feel like it definitely would've caught her in the car

Anne 23:35

maybe

Caroline 23:36

the ambulance got there.

Anne 23:37

caught up and dragged her out. But yeah, there's certain gaps where it seems to take a long time to catch her and then, catch up with her way too quickly. What would you do if this thing were following you and you'd figured out the rules? Where would you go? How would you do this?

Caroline 23:50

I mean, I'd probably just die.

Anne 23:52

Okay.

Caroline 23:53

Something that's like, I just it, I don't know that it would be worth it. First of all, I am not going to give it to somebody. Absolutely not. I mean sex is an incredibly intimate thing for me personally. I know that for other people it's not an kudos to them. But it would be quite hard for me to do it with that intention going on. And then also, I just wouldn't wanna live my whole life looking over my shoulder. I wouldn't sleep, you know, it would be torture.

Anne 24:20

So you do what Annie did and just for it.

Caroline 24:23

No, I'd probably just kill myself. I wouldn't let it get me. Like, I would probably just drive really far because it's slow and get a bunch of pills, or something like that.

Anne 24:33

Yeah, I was

Caroline 24:34

I don't know.

Anne 24:34

just kind of keep going back and forth a lot.

Caroline 24:37

you know, you have bases across the globe, you know, like, I think you could manage

Anne 24:42

Could it get on a

Caroline 24:43

I was talking to my husband. About it and he was like, why wouldn't you just fly somewhere? And I'm like, I don't think these kids have the money for a plane ride. But, yes, that's a good point. you could fly somewhere

Anne 24:52

You can put it off, but you can never escape it. It will come to get you at some point. Yik.

Caroline 24:58

Which is why I would just take care of the situation myself.'cause I could not live like that. I would be too much.

Anne 25:04

So what do you think is the real horror beneath the surface? is it just the thing. There's the. Inevitability of your own death. There's growing up, the fear of growing up and there's another, interpretation that it's about loss of innocence. that, you know, once you have entered that world, you can't go back. there's that scene right at the beginning when they're at the movies and I think they're gonna see charade, which is one of my favorite Audrey Hepburn movies. And they play the trade game where they point out people they'd switch with, and at first you think, well, this is just about setting up that scary moment where, she can't see the person he's pointing out. but then he also points to the little kid and there's that idea that he's so happy and he's innocent and he has his life ahead of him and they don't anymore. Right? Because they've entered that adult world and that adult world is scary and full of risk.

Caroline 25:51

that element too, I think was hard for me to connect with because like, we just went camping for a week and I picked up the dogs at the dog sitter and I think about how the dogs get in the car and they never have any idea what this is about. How long were you gonna be in the car for, what even is going on? And I see our kids lives being so much like that. And I just think maybe I am too much of a control freak to have any desire. To be a child again. Much is out of your control when you're a kid, and I know they're dealing with something that's out of their control for sure. but they certainly could do more about it than a child would be able to in any situation, you know?

Anne 26:31

Yeah, I don't think I'd go back to childhood either.

Caroline 26:34

I guess part of the horror is what humans will do to save themselves. all of these people who did sleep with people to get the thing.

Anne 26:41

Off their

Caroline 26:42

Pointed at a new target it's a horrific thing to think about, there's even been cases about people intentionally giving each other aids and stuff like that, you know? that I think is, the real nightmare because the other part is obviously. So fantastical and fictional. it's, it's hard to think about that being scary except for the literal image of, of those things walking at you, which is

Anne 27:03

Yeah, that's a really good point. What people will do to save themselves, who they'll throw under the bus. In relation to Paul's and perhaps Jay, I am not sure if she was complicit in this, was there a plan to pass it on to the sex worker? Like what does that say about the way the characters, but also we as a society value human life? Like it's only implied and maybe the implication is that Paul thinks about it but doesn't go through with it. But if he does, I want to know whether he told her the way Hugh told Jay to at least give this woman a chance. Or was the sex worker merely a stop gap to give them a bit of time? Like they knew she was gonna die and they didn't care. And maybe that's the plan to just to give Jay and Paul time between when the entity attacks them. And that's truly horrifying because if that is their plan, they've turned. Evil to preserve their own lives and happiness.

Caroline 27:54

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it is horrifying to think that this happened to Jay by someone who knew her. That is one form of betrayal, is also awful thinking about, goes to the boat and even if they're drunk fishing bros early in the morning, they still have value as human beings, that is horrific. And then obviously, the time they dedicate to transferring this to a sex worker is so minuscule that I didn't even catch it. it really does show lack of value in the life of that person. which is horrible and which is certainly the way that. Many institutions approach this, et cetera. but you know,, sex work is work and there is no, reason to devalue that human being because that's their line of work.

Anne 28:42

I think, yeah. And then what you said about the bros on the boat. I think that's such an interesting setting that they chose for Jay to pass it on. Like a group of drinking men that you don't know as a young woman is scary. Like frat parties are scary. I'm sure we've all been in situations over the years with that power dynamic and sense of vulnerability. When, you know, if that group of guys really wanted to do something horrible to you, they absolutely could. And we all have Me Too stories. But in this case, the one victimizing this group of men is Jay. And we know that whoever she slept with on that boat got killed because the entity comes back for her again after that boat scene. So I thought that was an interesting flipping of the script. the way she passes it on to the people who traditionally are more likely to be the threatening ones, but in this case, she's the threat. And it's not her fault that she's the threat, but she does make that choice to, kill someone else. I think it's also interesting just a little, you know, aside the difficulty in passing it on between, men and women, particularly a beautiful young woman like Jay, like Hugh has to, you know, date Jay, right? She's not gonna sleep with him on the first night. He has to really woo her. but on the other hand, like Jay, about Paul and Greg, like tripping over themselves to sleep with her. Even though they know it's a deadly curse because they just wanna get into Jay's pants, so all Jay has to do is walk up to that group of bros and she's done at least for a while, until one of them gets killed. But it's a lot harder for Paul and Jay. Like they have to pay someone, they have to date someone to get that curse passed along.

Caroline 30:10

Yeah. And while we're on this, like I'm just registering at this moment as we're talking about this, how heteronormative all of this is,

Anne 30:19

Hmm.

Caroline 30:20

you know, there is not any, I. Even hint that people who are bi or gay or whatever are experiencing this, which is interesting

Anne 30:29

yes. I'm not sure what it means, but it is worth noting.

Caroline 30:33

honestly, I think it means they didn't even think of them, you

Anne 30:36

Yeah.

Caroline 30:36

I, I'm sure it's just a matter of not considering that normal,

Anne 30:40

Yes.

Caroline 30:41

know? And clearly, which way is the worst way to be devalued? And is it by being an assigned tolerable victim or just forgotten

Anne 30:51

Yeah.

Caroline 30:51

I.

Anne 30:52

Yes. Well, in the case of the entity, I'd rather be forgotten than victimized the way the sex worker was. Yeah. What do we learn about survival? Is there. Any message that we can take away from this for the anxiety prone amongst us.

Caroline 31:08

I would only just hearken back to kind of my earlier thought about survival. I mean, the horrific element of it. people will do some pretty terrible things

Anne 31:18

Yeah, I mean perhaps it's a message about the dangers of casual sex. Maybe it's live your life despite the threat that hangs over all of us of growing up and dying. Maybe it's depend on your friends. I don't know. She does depend on her friends a lot. They, they really are there for her, which is nice.

Caroline 31:34

the sister relationship is very strong. was worried at one point with. Paul, right? That there would be some sort of beef over the way. He views one sister versus another, but it just seems like everyone's totally supportive. So that was lovely.

Anne 31:49

Yes. Would you recommend this?

Caroline 31:51

Maybe,

Anne 31:52

Hmm? Obviously I would. I did.

Caroline 31:55

Yeah,

Anne 31:56

Yeah.

Caroline 31:56

mean, I did specifically take out my phone and show clips of things slowly walking to my husband, because I was like, you need to understand what's been like keeping me up in

Anne 32:07

Does he like horror?

Caroline 32:08

he does, but he likes more like black mirror type, you know,

Anne 32:12

Mm,

Caroline 32:13

Psychological.

Anne 32:14

horror. Yeah.

Caroline 32:15

Science, you know, nerdy stuff.

Anne 32:18

Mangled bodies on a shoreline is not really his thing.

Caroline 32:21

No, but I don't think he minds them either because, he, recreationally plays like war games and stuff

Anne 32:27

Mm.

Caroline 32:28

where things die horrifically and bloody, but.

Anne 32:30

My husband is not a horror guy either. He'll usually watch something with me on Halloween or my birthday to indulge me, but Hara is usually something that I do when he's out. I would recommend this just because I love. I love the slow burn, relentless quality of the entity. I like the way they mess with horror movie tropes that we've previously discussed. and I also, something we haven't mentioned is the. Creepy, synthetic eighties movie sort of score that reminds me of like Halloween and Stranger Things. So yeah, I, I loved it. Obviously it was the first movie I recommended on this podcast, so came up pretty quickly. I also love that it's low budget and it was really successful, so I love when, a low budget movie makes it big, so that makes me happy.

Caroline 33:13

Totally me too. And it also wasn't incredibly long, you know, like it

Anne 33:17

Mm.

Caroline 33:18

A totally pleasant amount of time.

Anne 33:21

Yeah,

Caroline 33:22

and I liked, you know, the, the fashion as well.

Anne 33:25

the fashion was fun. Yeah.

Caroline 33:26

Mm-hmm.

Anne 33:27

So, Caroline, you don't have a palate cleanser for us this week, but my palate cleanser is rewatching season one of Schitt's Creek because

Caroline 33:36

so good.

Anne 33:37

it's just so delightful. And I love David's expressions and I love Annie's selfishness, not Annie. that's her real name, Annie Murphy. Um,

Caroline 33:48

Yeah. Alexis. I love Alexis. I love all of them, and it just makes me smile. So if you're looking for a palate cleanser after the grimness of this movie, and whether you've seen it before, you haven't seen it, check out Schitt's Creeks. It's a delight. And really the. Emotional arc that every character in that show goes on is just so beautiful. Uh, it's very, it's lovely.

Anne 34:13

It's pretty much a perfect show. Yeah.

Caroline 34:15

agree. I agree.

Anne 34:17

Okay. If you like this, you should. Watch Eight Mile. I already had that on my list of things to recommend, so I'm glad that you said that too. you should watch Barbarian also for the setting, that kind of grim, abandoned Detroit setting. the pool scene, there's the movie and the book. I. let the Right One in, which is a Vampire movie that is so good, and there it ends on a pool scene if you're interested in the relentless nature of the entity, I recommend The Ring with Samara and Smile is about a passed on curse. I haven't seen Smile two yet, but Smile really reminded me of this. Obviously there's the Terminator movies, which I'm thinking about showing my kids for the first time coming up and then Halloween, right? Because it's got that nightmares, dreamlike quality. There's an entity that moves slowly, but is inescapable. Years might pass, and Michael Myers will still come back for Lori as many sequels can attest to.

Caroline 35:11

I would add scream, like,

Anne 35:12

of course. Scream.

Caroline 35:14

the trope element of it, as soon as I was like, oh, this is about sex, the first thing I thought of was scream,

Anne 35:20

Yeah,

Caroline 35:21

and Halloween. and, what's the, what's the camp one? Friday?

Anne 35:25

the 13th.

Caroline 35:26

Is it Friday the

Anne 35:27

Friday the 13th. I, I was wondering if you were talking about Sleepaway camp,'cause that's a very different camp. No, not sleepaway Camp.

Caroline 35:32

I think I always just got Friday the 13th and nightmare on Elm Street mixed up. But it's definitely Friday the 13th

Anne 35:38

Yep.

Caroline 35:39

And disturbing behavior.'cause why not?

Anne 35:42

Oh, I love disturbing behavior. I haven't seen it in probably decades, but I think I need to watch that again.

Caroline 35:48

Yeah. And the ring. I will say, since you mentioned the ring, I think the relentless aspect too. I think also the, I think I figured out a fix

Anne 35:57

But I didn't. Yes.

Caroline 35:59

a good thing and the ring is one of the, I think only three movies in my life that I saw in the theater more than once.

Anne 36:06

Wow. We should rewatch the ring because I remember that came out when we were in college and I think it was senior year, the ring was really big, right?

Caroline 36:14

Yes.

Anne 36:15

was into that Ty Bow video. Do you remember like Billy Blank's kickboxing And I used to set up somehow two TVs, which, you know, back then, we didn't really have, did we even have laptops then? I don't know. I feel like I had a desktop computer, but somehow I would set up. The ring on TV and my Billy Blanks ty bow kickboxing video on another screen. And I remember once I was home alone, I was doing my kickboxing by myself, watching the ring at the same time, and slowly it got darker and darker and darker. And I really scared myself even though I was doing this silly kickboxing video because Samara is horrifying.

Caroline 36:52

Absolutely, especially her like jump, scare.

Anne 36:55

Yeah. Or well, let's not talk about the ring too much because maybe we'll do it in the future. I think we've got like five or six movies we've said now that we have to talk, talk about later.

Caroline 37:03

funny. I, I, I was just, at a campsite and on the TV screens, toy Story two was playing and there was a guy sitting and waiting to use the bathroom. And I looked up and I was like, lousy. Try Brian. Like I quoted Toy Story two and the guy was like, you must have kids. And I was like. Yes, but that's not why I know this movie by, because I

Anne 37:26

Story two was your college movie.

Caroline 37:28

I would watch, I it, I had it in the VCR. My roommate and I loved to watch forensic files before bed, but then we were too scared to go to sleep, so we would watch 20 minutes of toys or two after forensic files.

Anne 37:40

Which is interesting because a cleanser

Caroline 37:41

cleanser too.

Anne 37:42

too

Caroline 37:42

story

Anne 37:43

Story. Toy Story two.

Caroline 37:45

is,

Anne 37:45

Yes, I remember you watching those bloopers over and over and over again. Toy Story four on the other hand, I think could be classified as a horror movie.

Caroline 37:52

Agree.

Anne 37:53

Yeah, maybe we should do that one too. Okay. Do you wanna give us our next homework assignment?

Caroline 38:00

Yes. So as I mentioned earlier, or dropped earlier, inspired by the pool scene, I, requested that Annie watch the Fox Hollow. Murders, a docuseries, I think it's three parts.

Anne 38:13

I think it's four. I'm on, I've finished two episodes and I'm gonna watch the next two. Yeah.

Caroline 38:18

Okay. It's, it's very quick, even though it's four parts. Like I

Anne 38:21

Yeah,

Caroline 38:22

one evening and three more the next morning. So.

Anne 38:24

okay. It's on Hulu in the US and Disney Plus in Australia, which is a weird choice for Disney. But there it's,

Caroline 38:31

Yeah.

Anne 38:32

yeah. Alright. thank you for listening. Please do all the things podcasters ask you to do. Tell a friend, write a review on iTunes. You can email us at Drawn to Darkness pod@gmail.com if you'd like to offer any feedback. We apologize for any audio issues we've had in these early episodes. We're learning, we're adjusting mics, figuring out how to edit. Hang in there. We'll get better. And finally, if you like Shirley Jackson, delight in what you fear, join us in two weeks here at Drawn to Darkness. Special thanks to Nancy Ano for our cover art. You can find her on Facebook at Nancy Ano Art and Harry Kid for our intro and outro music. You can find him on Spotify.