4 - The Fox Hollow Murders

Could you live in a house where dozens of people were murdered? What if it came with  an indoor pool? And mannequins? In this episode, we unravel the deeply disturbing true crime docuseries The Fox Hollow Murders, revisiting the case of suspected serial killer Herb Baumeister. With 10,000 bones scattered among his forested property, and a current homeowner named Rob Graves (yep, really). I mean, who buys a murder mansion? 

We explore the ethics of true crime storytelling, and the unnerving interview that left us both speechless (hi, Mark Goodyear).  It's a chilling exploration of unsettling grins and sausage fingers, but more importantly police negligence, social stigma, and what happens when society decides some victims just don’t matter. At the same time, there’s a hope because of heroes like coroner Jeff Jellison who refuses to give up and believes everyone matters.

Spoiler alert and trigger warning:
This episode features graphic discussions of murder, police negligence, and deeply unsettling behavior (and yes, mannequins). Listener discretion is advised.

Recommendations

• The Jinx (bone-chilling confessions on mic)
• House of Wax (2005) (creepy mannequin energy)
• Monster: The Jeffrey Dahmer Story (real horror, tough to stomach)
• I’ll Be Gone in the Dark by Michelle McNamara (dogged investigation, real impact)
• Making a Murderer (messy timelines and corrupt systems)
• True Crime Obsessed Podcast (lighter takes on grim cases)
• The Keepers (systemic cover-ups and buried truths)

Palate Cleansers

• The Other Two (TV series)
• Cadaver Dogs, or really any dog.  Forget about stopping to smell the roses. Stop and pat a dog.

Homework

Ghosts in the Burbs (Episodes 1–9)  Because after a haunted pool, Mark Goodyear’s smile, and 10,000 bones, we’re ready for ghost stories that are spooky, cosy, and more fun than frightening.

As always, tell your friends, leave a review on iTunes, email your thoughts (or mannequin-related nightmares) to DrawnToDarknessPod@gmail.com. Until next time, trust your gut, pat a dog, and maybe don’t buy a house where people were murdered in the pool. See you in two weeks on Drawn to Darkness.

Special thanks to Nancy Azano for providing our cover art. You can find her on Instagram @nancyazano. 

And Harry Kidd for composing and recording our opening score. His Instagram is @harryjkidd and you can also find him on Spotify. https://open.spotify.com/artist/43BiFkkOHykD8n9g4z0Qd7

Transcript

Anne 0:11

Welcome back to Drawn To Darkness, a biweekly podcast where we discuss our favorite movies, TV shows, podcasts, books, and stories that are dark, scary, and twisted. My name's Annie and I'll be discussing my favorite horror.

Caroline 0:25

my name's Caroline and I'll be discussing my favorite True Crimes

Anne 0:29

The first thing I wanna ask you today, Caroline, is would you buy and live in a house where a serial killer had committed dozens of murders?

Caroline 0:37

No way. In hell no. Absolutely not.

Anne 0:40

Why not? Do you believe in ghosts? I'm open to ghosts, so No way.

Caroline 0:44

I do not believe in ghosts. And I'm sure we'll be discussing this many, many times in the future,

Anne 0:49

So what's the problem then?

Caroline 0:50

It's more about and we'll get to this part, but there are moments here where this man is describing, in detail the deaths of people in a room that he has not renovated in any way, shape or form, since those people experienced those horrific deaths. And I just don't think I could walk around. looking at places where I know that happened to a person,

Anne 1:11

Yes. So it's the knowing, it's not the fear that there's still there. So even if it has an indoor pool, you don't want an indoor pool?

Caroline 1:19

Not that bad.

Anne 1:20

No.

Caroline 1:20

that bad. I mean, pools are so much maintenance, you

Anne 1:23

Those are so much maintenance. Yeah. I don't wanna pull it all. Nevermind. An indoor one where people get murdered, but what if it came with mannequins, like your own private collection of, of mannequins? Would you buy it then?

Caroline 1:33

Literally, I can, the mannequins, I cannot get over the mannequin aspect of this story at all. I can't get over the fact that there is a family living in this house with the mannequins that other people I'm assuming came over. I mean, it's, I don't think I would live in a house with a mannequin,

Anne 1:50

Not one mannequin.

Caroline 1:52

no. Why do I have a mannequin?

Anne 1:54

Well why don't we talk about what we're going to talk about today, which is the Fox Hollow murders. spoiler reminders. Go off and watch it and come back. Okay. Pausing for you to do that. Here we go.

Caroline 2:07

Yes, the Fox Hollow Murders playground of a serial killer about a new investigation into the 1990s serial killer Herb Baumeister. Decades after around 10,000 bones, 10,000 bones were found in the woods of his property. includes interviews with the coroner, Jeff Ellison, who's instrumental in reopening the case. Steve Ainsworth, a cold case detective with a fabulous mustache, paranormal investigators and the current homeowner who is aptly named Rob Graves. rob

Anne 2:43

graves.

Caroline 2:44

Most importantly, it focuses on the victims and their families as they try to identify the remains found on the property and bring them closure.

Anne 2:51

This is a nightmare of a house, a backyard. I think one of the, either the coroner or the detectives say it's the second largest number of unidentified remains second only to the World Trade Center with Yeah. 9,900 bones.

Caroline 3:06

It's Jeff who says

Anne 3:08

Yeah. there's this one image where I think it's from the nineties when they first found it, and there's just like red flags everywhere. literal red flags that they've put in to mark where they found bones. But I think that's interesting because there are so many red flags in the people involved in this whole. Thing. So I thought that was a nice little metaphor. I read that they've identified 13 victims, but other, in other places I read nines. I'm not sure of the exact stats here, but in terms of the number of people that Herb Baumeister is believed to have killed, it's something between 25 and 56. 56 is what, our friend Mark Goodyear says,

Caroline 3:49

Mm. Our friend Mark Goodyear,

Anne 3:51

our friend, mark Goodyear.

Caroline 3:52

some good time

Anne 3:53

We will, we will.

Caroline 3:54

Um, but I do think that is a lot more than what would've been reported from just his property. I can't remember now if it was like Wikipedia or somewhere else, but after I watched this the first time, I did a deep dive online and I read something about there was a period of time where, there were bodies found along an interstate, and he had been living in that area at that time. So I think much like Bundy and other notable, you know, Israel keys, like he's traveling and there's bodies in that area, it's most likely that there is, but it's gonna be hard to prove, especially with what gets found ultimately.

Anne 4:28

Yeah, they don't talk about it in the documentary, but there is, suspicion that he is the I 70 Strangler and I looked up on Wikipedia, the victims of that. And it's so sad because they're young, like 14 years old, 17 years old, 21 years old. So he was targeting, male sex workers and just really young people. So that's

Caroline 4:46

Mm-hmm.

Anne 4:46

sad that that happened at all, but scary that it is perhaps this same person. I guess what, what that brings up for me is like, why hadn't I heard of this guy? I've heard of John Wayne Gacy, I've heard of Jeffrey Dahmer and. my first thought was that, I missed it because, I think they reopened the case in what, 22, 23. And that was a time when I'd kind of fallen off true crime. and I don't wanna blame it all on Donald Trump, but he's really the reason I stopped listening to True Crime because I started listening solely to political podcasts like, I was really into Pod Save America. And then when Biden was reelected, I started listening only to horror podcasts, like, ghosts in the Burbs and Radio Rental and Let's Not Meet Scared To Death. I even went through a Sasquatch Chronicles phase where I listened to people's story about stories about Bigfoot, which was really fun. So I've, I've kind of just been out of the true crime game for a while. so I thought maybe I just missed it. But I think it's just that it really hasn't been reported on much. It's just kind of been lost.

Caroline 5:44

As someone who, at the same period, just dove into nothing but true crime constantly, pretty much since Donald Trump's first election. It's how I found all those other podcasts, et cetera, is just. I need to listen to something that feeds my anxiety, but makes me feel like I can do something about it. Like as if this is homework and I'm trying to prevent myself from being a

Anne 6:06

Okay.

Caroline 6:07

I did see online that Georgia covered this once on my favorite murder. I think I remember that now that I read it. But it, it really is not, and for the number of victims and also, the, I don't know, fantastical feels like the wrong word, but like, mannequins and an indoor pool, you know, like Wealthy and lives in this huge house and has a family and all this stuff like that, you know?

Anne 6:34

Yeah, I mean, John Wayne Gacy has his clown stuff. That's his creepy thing that makes him like particularly memorable. But herb Baumeister has his mannequins and his indoor pool, So why haven't we heard of this? And is it because of the setting? Is it because this was Indiana in the 1990s and is it because he was targeting gay men? At this time in history,

Caroline 6:57

Yeah. What I found most appalling, and I think that that answers our question, is two moments. So when Jeff people for their DNA, et cetera and is like, we're gonna try to identify all these people, and he gets that email from the former official who's like, what has happened to justify this cost to the taxpayer? It was decided that this is not important and blah, blah, blah. And he's like, I've got a real problem with that. And I was like, I love you.

Anne 7:26

Yes.

Caroline 7:27

And second, there is a moment where. In an attempt to excuse the abject failure of the police to detain Herb before he was able to leave. there is a cop on the news saying if anyone is the victim, it's his wife and his family.

Anne 7:43

that is, the true horror of this the dismissal of the victims because they were gay men in the nineties, and that is absolutely horrific. I mean, I think his wife and kids are victims too, but they're not the only victims by any means, and they're not the, victims who have suffered the most. Right. The people who suffered the most are the people he murdered and, strangled.

Caroline 8:03

Right.

Anne 8:04

Yeah.

Caroline 8:05

To be clear, they are victims. I wouldn't put them first in line

Anne 8:08

No, no, no. Earlier you used the word appalling to describe this. Are there any other adjectives you would use?

Caroline 8:16

Tragic.

Anne 8:17

Tragic, yeah.

Caroline 8:18

as with many instances, Dahmer, where gay men are targeted and it goes on for a period of time and nothing is done about it, and more die, know what else you could call it,

Anne 8:31

Hmm.

Caroline 8:32

just tragic, it's totally preventable. If people valued these people lives could have been saved, you know?

Anne 8:39

Yeah. I had, um, sad and disgraceful written down, for the same reasons as you. the other adjectives, were perplexing and frustrating because, well, at the beginning, a woman, I think her name was Ashley Taylor in the coroner's office says, what I love about true crime is when the puzzle pieces fit together. And this is a true crime story where the puzzle pieces definitely do not fit together. And there's so much that I don't understand and so many moving pieces that don't make sense. So let's talk about that. why don't we talk about Herb first?

Caroline 9:12

goodness. What a creep. I mean, what did you think of the raccoon situation?

Anne 9:17

it was so weird He's so focused on this raccoon and why is he being interviewed on the news about a dead raccoon? It was just the biggest red flag, like. I don't know. I don't even know what to say about that raccoon story I, I listened to, last podcast on the left. I didn't finish it because it's like two hours long, but they talked about how he also had raccoons living in his house because he was like a hoarder and they were, he had a raccoon infestation in the

Caroline 9:45

like

Anne 9:45

attic. What happened at Gray Gardens?

Caroline 9:48

Oh, we're gonna have to watch

Anne 9:50

Okay. So there's more true crime with raccoon infestations.

Caroline 9:54

I don't know if you could call it a crime, but it's a documentary about, relatives of Jackie o

Anne 9:59

Oh, I know about them. Okay. Yeah.

Caroline 10:02

Yeah,

Anne 10:02

uh, you know, in Pawnee, Indiana, don't they have some raccoon issues on Parks and Rec?

Caroline 10:07

sure

Anne 10:08

They sure do.

Caroline 10:08

Mm-hmm.

Anne 10:10

the other thing that Herb reminded me of is, that scene in when Harry met Sally, when they're talking about the name Sheldon, because. You know that Sheldon is the guy who does your taxes.

Caroline 10:20

Yeah.

Anne 10:20

know the scene where he's like, Sheldon's not a sexy name.

Caroline 10:22

of course.

Anne 10:23

So Herb is not a sexy name, and Herb is not a sexy guy. I don't understand.

Caroline 10:27

bumping is not a strong suit.

Anne 10:28

No, I don't understand how he could have possibly picked anybody up, which, makes me think somebody else might have been helping him with that, which we'll get to. so I think it was interesting, there was this interview with this lady who worked at his thrift shop, and she, at first started with, you know, you'd never suspect anything was amiss. But then she goes on to talk about how he had rotting food in the filing cabinet and he showed her and he was throwing things out in a rage in front of customers. And he was weird with the mannequins, the red flags were there, I think with her boss, and they didn't talk about this in the documentary, but on, the last podcast and left, they said he got in trouble for like, peeing on his boss's desk at the DMV. There were all sorts of weird things about this guy that the documentary doesn't really delve into.

Caroline 11:11

Yeah, and including signs from childhood. I was reading online after I saw it the first time, which me of, oh, who's the really tall one? I saw his house, ed Kemper

Anne 11:23

Oh, yeah. At Kemper.

Caroline 11:24

he like kill his grandparents first and then.

Anne 11:27

Sounds familiar. Yeah.

Caroline 11:28

Killed his grandparents and then he was a child, so he was out after. And then

Anne 11:34

Big mistake. And the other weird thing, which we've talked about is the mannequins. Who keeps mannequins set up in their pool room? That's crazy.

Caroline 11:43

I mean tiny bit of it was answered knowing that he had a thrift store and it was like, okay, that's how he has his supply chain for mannequins. But I still don't get Having them in your house,

Anne 11:55

was using,

Caroline 11:56

up as if you're having a party.

Anne 11:57

he was using these mannequins for recreational purposes. This was not a job thing. Even if that's how he accessed them.

Caroline 12:02

Yeah.

Anne 12:03

One question I had, did the mannequins only come out when he was having guests or were they out all the time? Because he has a wife and kids did he put them away when they were around?

Caroline 12:13

it's a good question because, they do make note of, like, often he would do these things when his wife was away, abroad with the kids and stuff like that, which also, I just can't really relate to like being abroad a summer or something from your partner.

Anne 12:29

If your partner was herb baumeister, you'd probably be like, yeah, I'm going to my mom's house, or whatever it is. I'm getting away from this freak show as much as I possibly can. I mean, she was, she was a nineties Republican and a mother, she probably had some fairly traditional values when it came to considering things like divorce. So she probably didn't feel like she had a way out. But yeah, maybe she took every weekend away that she could possibly get.

Caroline 12:54

Yeah, it's interesting to think about her perspective. I guess I really assumed that the mannequins were just always there. But you do have a point that he could have just brought them out when his family wasn't around, because I can't imagine kids being just like, chill with the mannequins hanging out by the pool.

Anne 13:10

I'm interested in, and I, I wouldn't want to disrespect their privacy in any way, but in how they're going, you know, like when you are the child or the former partner of a serial killer, how does that impact you long term? It's probably not great.

Caroline 13:24

Probably not.

Anne 13:25

you mentioned that he was rich and I was just like, how is he rich? he's just running shitty thrift stores. Right. Like, where's all the money coming from? I guess it must be family money because it sounds like

Caroline 13:35

is

Anne 13:35

he,

Caroline 13:35

money. Yeah.

Anne 13:36

yeah. I.

Caroline 13:37

It's family money from his parents were wealthy and so they set them up.

Anne 13:42

shall we talk about the current homeowner, Rob Graves?

Caroline 13:46

Mm-hmm.

Anne 13:47

Hmm. He is.

Caroline 13:48

of them?

Anne 13:48

Well, I think that Herb Baumeister is not the only weirdo to live at Fox Hollow.

Caroline 13:56

I would agree. Yeah.

Anne 13:58

I mean, first of all, he bought it, right? He bought it

Caroline 14:01

Mm-hmm.

Anne 14:02

that these horrific things had happened there. So that's weird. I don't care how nice a property is. And I feel like he just, he loves this. loves walking people through his house. He loves talking about it. He's written a book and I think it goes beyond trying to make money off of it. I think he truly enjoys being involved in this. He's got, a bunch of b meister paraphernalia. I mean, one of my favorite moments was he's discussing Mark Goodyear and he kind of starts stammering about people wanting to insert themselves into investigations. And I'm like, that's you, you are inserting yourself into this.

Caroline 14:37

Yeah. I, I loved the way they approached him, I have to say, because it starts with him giving the perfectly reasonable explanation about why. They ended up living in this house, and also, oh well we're Catholic, so we had a priest come in and we also had a shaman or whatever. And I just, I thought it was so strange. I never understand when people really, genuinely believe in a faith and then they're like, but we also had this guy in case we're wrong. I'm

Anne 15:04

Yeah, hedging your bets.

Caroline 15:06

so like, is it possible other people could be right Or is it not? Anyway, and then he goes into this whole thing about people being obsessed with murder and buying these original, knobs or something from the bathroom. I think it was, and. you kind of think okay, I guess I understand this guy thinking it's okay. And then it goes into him writing a book like immediately, and then it goes into everything he knows and he's, and then he is going down to the pool. Everything is original. This is exactly where this happens. And he talks about it step by and you're just like, oh my God, you are the freak you just talked about seconds ago. Who bought this stuff off? Murder, murder goods.com or whatever

Anne 15:45

Murder auction.com, I think. Yeah. I mean, this is not just a business venture for him. He likes it. if this were a horror movie, I would write it that Rob Graves is being slowly possessed and starting to weird his wife out with the Herb Baumeister obsession. And then one day she'd go down for a swim and find like mannequins posed around the pool. That would be the big like ding dun moment.

Caroline 16:05

Very, the Shining.

Anne 16:07

Yeah. Yeah. The slow descent into madness. well let's talk about somebody we like. How about Jeff? Jeff Jellison?

Caroline 16:14

He is my favorite person of this whole

Anne 16:16

Hmm.

Caroline 16:17

and I wanna be careful about that because I've been burned by like, there's district attorneys that I've thought were heroes in the past that turned out to be kind of like scummy in one way or another. So I wanna say, I don't know anything else about this guy, but what I've seen on this series, he seems like a genuinely good person has the right thing in mind, which I will say Rob Graves is interested in this, not for the right reasons. He's interested in it because of the, like, element of it and not justice. And Jeff is very interested in closure justice in doing the right thing.

Anne 16:52

Yeah, I mean, he, he says these victims are important. Such a simple statement, but so true. And he really takes on culpability for, and I, I don't even know if he was involved back then, I don't think he was. But you know, he takes on that culpability, and the insensitivity to the victims that the people who were investigating at this time, you know, the way they failed them.

Caroline 17:12

it is stark opposite of Jeff is the footage. I think it's old original footage, maybe it was like 60 minutes a while ago of this cop who was around at the time. He's kind of the heavy heavyset guy like all bodies are beautiful, all shapes and sizes are beautiful. I, I just don't remember his name, and he was heavyset. He mentions when they're talking about not having detained herb, he's like, there were a lot of sour apples about that. And he has a lot of very dismissive commentary

Anne 17:41

Yeah.

Caroline 17:42

the situation. it really was like just a total contrast of this guy who's just like. Well, do you want us to do? It's just some gay guy's dead who cares? and

Anne 17:51

hmm.

Caroline 17:52

person being like, these are humans and they deserve to be put to rest,

Anne 17:56

I have some possible theories about the cops at the time that I'd like to discuss later,

Caroline 18:01

Hmm.

Anne 18:01

what about, uh, Mr. Mustache, Steve Ainsworth, the Michael Jordan of Cold Case Detectives, as I think Jeff Ellison describes him. What do you think of him?

Caroline 18:10

That the whole thing was precious, I wanna say coffee shop meetings and everything watching them. And I would just be like, is this really the first time they're having this conversation or is it not? I don't know. But I love how much they're like, like, yeah, man. Yeah. Like they're on the same team. It's so cute.

Anne 18:29

it was cute, particularly Jeff Jellison.'cause I think he was a bit awestruck by being in the same room with that mustache and, you know, he was like, yeah, yeah. Like you could see it in his eyes that they were on the same page. It was cute. Yeah.

Caroline 18:42

it was adorable. He looked at him, so admirably and,mustachio. I've forgotten his name.

Anne 18:49

Steve Ainsworth

Caroline 18:50

everyone's gonna have to get used to the fact that I'm really bad with names. but he he wasn't like taking it for his own ego. He was just like, yeah, man. you're, you're also awesome.

Anne 18:59

Yeah.

Caroline 19:01

like was his vibe.

Anne 19:02

And I, I just love the trope, the real life trope of a dogged detective who won't give up, you know, the, the Paul Holes kind of guy. Are you still hot for holes

Caroline 19:13

Forever

Anne 19:13

forever? Yes. it was interesting though that Steve Ainsworth was involved in the Rams, the JonBenet Ramsey case, and he doesn't think the Ramseys had anything to do with it, at least at the time. Like I couldn't find whether or not he's evolved in that.

Caroline 19:26

I, I have my opinions on that. Actually, when I saw that about him, I was like, do I trust this guy?

Anne 19:33

Yeah.

Caroline 19:33

'cause I disagree. but I mean, I, I really felt like he gave some very, first of all, him screening those, those documents calling out patterns and everything was so great. And then also the coaching of the, directors of this, for when you talk to Goodyear, here's what I would say, and

Anne 19:51

Yeah.

Caroline 19:51

I would say it to him was really great. It was very like, oh, we're going for a jarecki moment here. We're going for like a, the jinx

Anne 19:58

Hmm.

Caroline 19:59

at the end, you know?

Anne 20:01

I really wish he had been the one to interview. Mark Goodyear. Well, let's talk about liar, liar, pants on fire. Mark Goodyear, because Wow.

Caroline 20:10

Yeah. I get one superficial thing outta the way? His teeth are the whitest teeth I've ever seen in my life.

Anne 20:17

We can talk about superficial, we can talk about superficial things all day if you want. I think he looks like Judge Doom. From who framed Roger Rabbit.

Caroline 20:26

A thousand percent. Yes. He looks like a villain

Anne 20:30

if I'm going on appearance and demeanor alone, mark Goodyear did it right? Like he's bone chilling.

Caroline 20:36

What did you think about his first line,

Anne 20:39

Which one?

Caroline 20:40

I think it's the end of episode three or two, because at first you don't see him like he's walking through the house, you don't see his face, right. And then he sits down at the end of an episode, you finally see his face and he's like, so what do you think? Am I really the big bad wolf? Or whatever? Like he's makes this bone chilling statement.

Anne 20:57

Yes. I was going to save that for when we discuss scariest moments, because when he, he says, am I the evil culprit, the accomplice? And then he laughs like this maniacal laugh. I literally cried. I couldn't handle watching that. I, I honestly don't know if a horror movie has anything creepier than his expression and that giggle.

Caroline 21:17

I am chills head to toe. I can still feel them in my legs right now. I've watched this twice already and now we're discussing it and I'm still like chills, head to toe.

Anne 21:25

Yeah. I mean, mark Goodyear is gonna haunt my dreams right now. Like, forget the tall guy from it follows he's. Horrifying. I mean, it also reminded me, I don't know if you, I'm assuming you've seen Psycho at some point.

Caroline 21:38

Yes.

Anne 21:39

Like the, I wouldn't hurt a fly moment in Psycho that is just so bone chilling and also the Jinx, and I don't wanna say what it reminds me of in the Jinx, but just capturing something like that, it reminded me of that fantastic documentary as well.

Caroline 21:55

Or like also in, what is that movie called? Fatal Attraction. In Fatal Attraction. When she's like, I'm not gonna be ignored, Dan. You know, like, you, and you're just like, oh shit, this

Anne 22:07

Yes, yes. The Crazy Eyes come out. Yeah. I mean, talk about an unreliable witness, unreliable narrator, So, I mean, we know he is a liar, right? Like, there's so many things he doesn't make sense. and I think the biggest thing is just this, did he have one encounter with Herb, which is, you know, what he originally claims when he goes to the police, or did he have an actual relationship? And if he did have a relationship with Herb, was he the accomplice? There's little things like he used the apostrophe d when he says he'd put his hands inside my mouth. Now that is indicative of repetition habit. That's not a one-off, right? so we know he spent time with Herb and then there's this, there's this part where he talks about sitting on the couch watching the news of the search with him. Sitting on the couch is not something you do with somebody you've met once. It's something you do with a partner, right? Like sitting on the couch watching tv, but then he immediately realizes that he's said something that indicates a relationship and he kind of backtracks and he's like, oh, he was stalking me. And it's like, why'd you let him on your couch then?

Caroline 23:06

Yeah. And it's also the level with which he could elements of things that occurred in every single room of a house that supposedly he was in one time. I highly doubt, I mean, of course, your memory, I. We learned in Cy, right? Like your memory is very strong and specific. When something significant happens and when something insignificant happens, it's not, and so you could argue, well, that one time he was in the house, it was a very significant moment, so he would remember things, sure. But would he really be in every single room and were there even enough hours for him to have all of these different things occur that he talks about? I mean, it's insane.

Anne 23:45

Well maybe when he drugged Herb, he gave himself a little house tour. That was another weird story. Like he mentions how terrified he is and then somehow he drugs herb, and then. You know, if, if you're scared and you've successfully managed to drug someone you're scared of, like go leave. But instead he hangs around and then he mocks the interviewer for like, not knowing how drugging works. Right. He's like, have you never been drugged?

Caroline 24:07

Well, at the end when they're talking about herb's, downfall or demise, whatever, he's like, well, his fingers were so swollen at the end, he could never have pulled the trigger. And it's like, how did you know his fingers were swollen at the end?

Anne 24:19

that is such a weird detail. And he refuses to answer a question, like, I don't wanna get 25. So that leads me to think perhaps Mark killed Herb and that herb didn't commit suicide. I mean, that question is there.

Caroline 24:33

It, it's definitely presented because there are Canadian police that say there was no gun

Anne 24:39

But not that cop. You talked about he's like, no, there was a gun.

Caroline 24:42

The gun was there. The gun was there. But I don't really trust his word either. He doesn't care about these people.

Anne 24:46

Yeah.

Caroline 24:46

When you, what is it? When you hear. Hoofs. Think horses not zebras. Right? Like I, I don't generally jump to conspiracy. it is interesting to think that Mark could have done it, but he was out of the country. He left the country suddenly wasn't 2000, whatever, where you had cell phones, you could just find the person you needed and tell them where you were. He was asleep out in the middle of nowhere in his car. I really think he killed himself.

Anne 25:10

Okay. Fair. Yeah. But what about the sausage fingers?

Caroline 25:13

I think Mark wants a reaction,

Anne 25:16

Yeah,

Caroline 25:16

so he's like, I mean, let's ask his wife. Did he have sausage fingers? or is Mark just full of shit all the

Anne 25:23

I mean, mark is definitely full of shit. I, it's just which shit is real and which isn't. it, a lot of times it just felt like he was making it up as he went along to me. Like he just throws something out there. Like the whole thing about how he would stand on the tables at the bars and shriek. It's just the guy don't go home with him, he's the killer. does no one remember that?

Caroline 25:41

Right, because in the beginning, in the first episode, you have interviews with all of these people talking about our place and all these other bars and the vibe and people going missing. Not a single person mentions seeing somebody stand on a table being like, this one's the killer. Don't go home with them. They do mention, actually, there was an announcement at a bar that said, if you're leaving with somebody you don't know, tell someone

Anne 26:04

That doesn't sound like what Mark Goodyear did.

Caroline 26:06

No.

Anne 26:07

another thing that I thought was kind of telling is when they present the Laroi Bray testimony, the guy that, said somebody was held with their hands behind their backs and shot by Herb, and that Mark was the one who did it. So they present this and they were like, were you present for a murder? And he goes, what year was this?

Caroline 26:24

Right.

Anne 26:25

That's such a weird reaction.

Caroline 26:27

I know, but then, but then when they ask it again, he says, was never here with somebody in the long coat. and then he says, and I never witnessed a murder. What a, what a bizarre thing to jump to in both those instances. Like you wouldn't immediately be like, of course, I've never been involved in murder, don't you think I'd remember seeing someone die?

Anne 26:48

And instead he focuses on the coat and the year, and there's one point where he like says, I didn't lure or entice anyone. It is just that whole, you know, Shakespeare quote, he doth protests too much.

Caroline 26:58

a hundred percent.

Anne 26:59

Yeah. if he was an accomplice, it reminds me of the Carla Ko and Paul Bernardo murders. You know, the idea of Yeah. A couple. Luring people. one procuring a victim for the other, which I, I find especially creepy. I've, they're absolutely despicable, those two. and it just reminded me of them. So do you think there's any chance he's not involved, that he's just a weird storyteller that can't help inserting himself into an investigation? Like you're a hundred percent,

Caroline 27:28

one chance

Anne 27:29

yeah.

Caroline 27:30

percent. He was involved. Most likely he would lure the people because like you said earlier, herb's not really a finesser, nor is he a looker. So think it would've been easy for him to pick people up, but it is very easy for Mark who. Some might find charming instead of just utterly creepy to, especially younger

Anne 27:50

Yeah.

Caroline 27:51

and be like, come back to my friend's mansion with a pool. You know?

Anne 27:54

Yeah. Now he also claims that Herb stalked him. You know, again, this is all after I had one encounter with Herb. Then he says Herb stalked him that he called the police six or seven times a day. That there were years of Herb taunting him. And the police don't believe him. They're claiming Herb as a family man. Is there a record of these calls?

Caroline 28:13

No,

Anne 28:14

So it's a lie, right? Yeah, it's a lie. what about unanswered questions? So many I.

Caroline 28:22

Yeah. I mean, I wish we knew who all the people were. that's kind of my number one. I also, unfortunately, because I did also to a podcast covering the, maybe it was a docuseries anyway, covering the funeral home in Colorado, that was like a return to earth type situation. And they were supposedly having these environment, environmentally friendly cremations or whatever, and then they found that all those bodies were just stacked up in a house and they weren't actually cremating as people. Not only that, but some people were sent other people's remains. And so in the beginning of this, when the coroner is like, I called and the first person they identified was my cousin, was sort of like, was it, part of me wondered are people just being told. You know, to check a box that their family member was part of this. If, if they contribute DNA and then we just don't have enough people who've contributed DNA, I don't, you know,

Anne 29:21

Yeah, just to shut him up. That was Alan Livingston, I think

Caroline 29:25

I don't know that their intention is to shut'em up, but I think they're like, there is no way we're ever going to be able to fix this. Let's try to give people some peace some way, and if they come to us, we'll give them remains.

Anne 29:38

so

Caroline 29:38

I think that's how they justify it,

Anne 29:40

when was this? Was this in the 2020s or was the this, yeah, so I have trouble believing that in this day and age, but I guess if this. Funeral home was doing it that in this day and age, like the DNA testing must have been done at a university. there's probably enough outside sources that it's not just the cops. Like, yeah, here's your, you know, here's your results, you've got closure now go away.

Caroline 30:05

I would hope so. I mean, but the thing is there's outside sources involved, but you're only hearing from the cop.

Anne 30:10

Yeah.

Caroline 30:10

the cop that talks to you is only as truthful as he might

Anne 30:13

Hmm.

Caroline 30:13

You know? He or she, or they, or now they're both.

Anne 30:16

So obviously another question is, what exactly was Mark Goodyear's involvement? Which story is the truth? is he a innocent weirdo? or is he the accomplice? I tend to believe he's the accomplice. I did have a question like, okay, so the police clearly. Ignored information about Mark at the time, right? Like they didn't pick up on the inconsistencies. Even if you were just looking at that one interview, they didn't pick up on those inconsistencies. They didn't seem to look into him after, there's that, I think it was Herb Basters lawyer calls and says, like Herb says, Mark's a dangerous guy. And then there's the Laroi Bray, testimony that, he witnessed Mark Goodyear do something. So, okay, why didn't they look into this? It was this just like, who cares? It's gay men being murdered, so we're not gonna bother. Or is this a situation like the Keepers where maybe some cops are involved in having gay sex and they're closeted and you know, maybe Herb has something on one of them, or Mark has something on one of them, so they're like, let's just leave this alone.

Caroline 31:19

I mean, I believe that occurs Island Serial Killer is a, is an example of where I absolutely think Cups are involved in. Why that didn't progress in this case. I actually think it's just a matter of timing because. Mark is the person who points them at Herb. So the first person they speak to is Mark,

Anne 31:39

Mm-hmm.

Caroline 31:39

in first and he's got his tall tail about his one night stand, supposedly. that brings them to Herb where they discover all this other stuff and the other reports happen later and they're like, eh, already did this work. This case is closed. I don't need to reopen. You know, we know who did it and now he's dead and nobody cares about who he killed or how many victims there were, or whatever. This file is closed. I am not opening another case. That's, that's what I think.

Anne 32:08

So you think this is more just complacency because of the victims?

Caroline 32:13

Yeah, either that and or, it's not infrequent that people get tunnel vision about who they think did a thing

Anne 32:21

Right.

Caroline 32:21

and they're not willing to, I. Give credit or value to another story if it is oppositional to that opinion. So they'll file it'cause they have to, but either they're like, I don't wanna reopen this and do that. Work it, who cares? Because everyone's gone and, and done with justice cannot occur either way. Or they're like, I know who did this and I'm not gonna listen to these stories. I'll just file them.

Anne 32:46

Yeah. The other unexplored part of this documentary that I'm sort of interested in is the paranormal aspect, that there are these ghost hunting shows out there, and I wanted to watch one before we talked about this, but I didn't have time. Whether or not you believe in ghosts, if there was a place that would be haunted, it's a place like this where like a residue of horror would linger. Do you have any interest in watching those shows or not interested?

Caroline 33:07

I mean, I've tried it in the past and I've just been like. I don't get it. I, I, I just feel like it's so easy. Much like playing Ouija on sleepovers as a child. It's very easy to fake these things, you know?

Anne 33:20

Hmm.

Caroline 33:21

so I just find it, I find it hard to be convinced of things, video editing is also very easy to do. So, you know.

Anne 33:30

Yeah. I would never play Ouija board as a child. I never have, and I never would.

Caroline 33:35

It's so crazy to me, because I've already listened to a few episodes of ghosts in the Burps, which we're gonna be talking about at some point, there's also a mention there of Catholics and Ouija boards. I have to say, I knew nothing about this association. I was not raised Catholic. I was raised Christian and religious. I went to church every Sunday and everything, but I. a Ouija board, I played it. I always thought it was really ridiculous to think that something manufactured by like, I don't know, a toy Hasboro is gonna have like magical ghost powers. You know? I just, it seems very silly to me, but I guess it's like there's a real thing about it.

Anne 34:15

Don't mess with demons, that's all I'm gonna say.

Caroline 34:18

Sure. Fair.

Anne 34:19

Okay. I know, um,, do you have any criticism of the documentary?

Caroline 34:24

I would love a little bit more clarity about, like, we were just talking about with the timelines of things. Like sometimes I think documentaries forget to make it very clear to the watcher that they're, that, that a viewer is not as embedded in this story as they have been. And so it's helpful to have Chiron that remind people of names and dates and, and

Anne 34:45

Hmm.

Caroline 34:45

of these things like that in relation to each other. So I, I think that's an, a frequent criticism, even watching like Dateline, that's a criticism I have. but I think they did a pretty good job here.

Anne 34:54

Okay,

Caroline 34:55

Yeah.

Anne 34:55

this isn't a criticism, it's more of an observation. They don't actually talk about Herb that much, but I think that was deliberate to focus on the victims and these unanswered questions and giving them closure. So, you know, I mentioned that I listened to that last podcast on the left, and it talks about all the red flags, but in some ways that doesn't matter. Like we know Herb was an evil, despicable person, and those sorted details don't matter. What matters, you know, are the people he killed. So I, I really like that it was more victim centered, given that in the nineties they were so dismissed.

Caroline 35:25

yeah, I totally agree. I stopped short of saying like, what I really appreciated about this was the victim centricity of it, which feel like should be the way these things are approached in general, and they're often not, like, I have no interest in, listening to the. Secret interview tapes of serial killers, just listen to'em. Drone on and on and about themselves. Like they're not, they're not the people I want time spent on.

Anne 35:53

Yeah,

Caroline 35:53

I want time spent on the why and how, how to keep yourself safe, but otherwise the victims are, are really who should be highlighted, and I'm happy they did that here.

Anne 36:03

which is, you know, at, for as creepy as Mark Goodyear is, that is the real horror and the ongoing impact. Like, you know, I think it was Alan Livingston's mom, who has cancer. You know, she looks just so. Depleted and beaten down by this loss. And, uh, the son, you know, there's the guy who, whose dad died. You know, the son thinks that, you know, this guy organized like clothing drives and was really an active volunteer in his community that maybe because Herb Eser had a thrift store, that he went over there to collect something. He seems like a really good man and, it's really sad when he says like, I'm now seven years older than my dad ever was. So. The real horror beneath the surface of this, you know, beyond just a terrible person killing people, is the treatment of stigmatized groups and the unequal way we value victims, that we have these tears of lives, you know, which hearkens back to, it follows. in case you haven't listened to that episode, there is an implication of a scene with a sex worker that does not value her life. we know from Gary Ridgeway, the Green River Killer, the way sex workers are targeted and often not investigated as thoroughly. And I think it was the same for gay men at this time.

Caroline 37:15

Yeah, and one of my favorite. Podcast true crime. Obsess has a phrase bear's gonna bear. And it's like predators are gonna predator. They're gonna try to find victim that they feel is an easy target, either because they won't speak or no one will notice if they go missing, you know? and so, there is a real thing with the AIDS crisis in the beginning and people who may not be accepted by their families. That's an easy target. the people could assume they died or they left their family'cause they weren't being accepted. It's, it's really sad. I think the worst part is how there's not probable cause to hold a person who's got 10,000 body parts in his yard? I, I, I don't really understand

Anne 37:56

Yeah. Maybe. I mean, did Harpo master's parents have a lot of sway in the community? Maybe so they went easy on him. I don't know. I mean, it just seems like such a smoking shotgun, the shotgun pellets, the, or cartridges are in his backyard along with bones everywhere. Like, why did they not pick him up immediately? It's, it's bonkers.

Caroline 38:16

It is.

Anne 38:17

How scary is this?

Caroline 38:18

Well, so I'm not a gay man, I did not find it super scary because I did not think it would happen to me. but it was horrifying that it happens to anyone, So scary. I really think, like, oh, I'm in imminent danger, like I'm, you know, but it is, it is really, really quite horrifying to know that it occurred. It is real, and how many people didn't care fix it.

Anne 38:44

Yeah, I agree. For me, it was more sad and disappointing

Caroline 38:48

Yeah,

Anne 38:48

scary. Even though there were those moments that just really creeped me out, it's just more like an indictment on our society. So what did we learn about survival here? my first tip is if you have a one night stand with someone and they have mannequins, I don't care if this guy's the next Versace, like, get the fuck out.

Caroline 39:05

He didn't have a good ending either, Versace.

Anne 39:08

True. I don't know why I thought of him, but.

Caroline 39:10

I am very glad that we now have, I guess the upside to these phones that track everything we do and everywhere we are is that they track everything we do and everywhere we are. So a positive. People knowing where you are. I think it, I think the advice that was given at the bar to, if you're leaving with someone you don't know, tell someone was really strong. Good advice and holds to this day. If you're meeting someone you don't know, make sure someone knows where you are. and try to even figure out like a safe word escape situation, you know?

Anne 39:44

I remember my brother always telling me, buddies, buddies, have a buddy. You know, when I was, Going off to parties and stuff, I also think, we need to not marginalize people and stigmatize them for their sexual orientation, their job, whatever, because that really paves the way for harm because people who exist in the shadows, our, targets for the bears in the world.

Caroline 40:05

Absolutely. And are often afraid of going to the cops for help because

Anne 40:09

Stigmatized.

Caroline 40:10

Yeah.

Anne 40:11

and I think if people go missing, and they don't talk to anybody for years, they're not missing they're, something's happened to them.

Caroline 40:18

Right, which I think hopefully, and in the true crime stories I've been hearing, it seems to happen less often than in the past. Like, oh, they probably just ran away. But just so everyone knows, they say this on a lot of other podcasts, but you do not have to wait 24 hours. That is not true. The media has lied to you. Hollywood has lied to you. When someone is missing, they're missing. You can report them as missing immediately. You do not have to wait 24 hours. If a cop tells you you have to wait 24 hours, you tell them they're lying and find another cop.

Anne 40:47

Yeah,

Caroline 40:48

'cause it, that is just not true.

Anne 40:50

maybe stay off the I 70 as well because you know, her Bowes is also suspected of murders there. And do you know there's an I 70 killer and an I 70 strangler. I'm gonna say that again'cause I said strangler wrong. There's an I 70 murderer and. Now I have to say it again. Did you know there's an I 70 murderer and an I 70 Strangler? Did I say weird again? Strangler

Caroline 41:17

if we ever do outtakes, we have to include

Anne 41:19

Strangler.

Caroline 41:20

You're saying it like Matt Berry and, um, what we do in the Shadows Strangler.

Anne 41:27

Should I just leave it?

Caroline 41:27

Phoenix, Arizona. Yeah. Yeah, no, I 70 and also no, like Pacific Northwest. Right.

Anne 41:36

yeah. Hotspots.

Caroline 41:37

a million?

Anne 41:39

okay. Cleanser.

Caroline 41:41

Okay. So I, been asking everyone who recommended the show to me, and I, I have not found it. There's a show called the Other Two. It is about of a person who becomes like a Justin Bieber famous teen or whatever. It's a Lorne Michaels thing. It's 30 minutes an episode. is so, so funny and light and lovely. It's got like one of my Michael Showalter from the state. It's got, um, Mary Catherine Gallaghers Sniffer Armpits. What's her name again? The

Anne 42:15

Molly Shannon.

Caroline 42:16

Molly Shannon. She's in it. Uh, there's so many good people, but there's also people I've never seen before and it's all, it's so. Wonderful. It's been what I've been watching to go to sleep, to put me in a positive mood. So highly recommend.

Anne 42:28

Sounds lovely. my palate cleanser is those cadaver dogs. That I love those dogs. They were good dogs. And, um, that's my stop and smell. The roses. I always tell my students when we're doing like mental health stuff, like what is your stop and smell the roses. You may not give a shit about flowers and I don't personally, but I stop and pat every dog I meet and that's my stop and smell the roses. So, find whatever that simple pleasure is for you and do that thing.

Caroline 42:55

yeah. Also Jeff, like big ups to Jeff. You're doing God's work or whatever

Anne 43:00

Yeah.

Caroline 43:01

that, so grateful for people like him that exist in the world.

Anne 43:05

I forgot to say that Jeff reminds me of my, sister-in-law's dad. They have a similar look and similar vibe and similar voice, and he is also just like the most, one of the most decent men I've ever met. He's just such a good person and I was just even more enamored with Jeff because he reminded me of this good man I know.

Caroline 43:25

Hmm.

Anne 43:27

All right. If you like this, you should probably watch Monster, the Jeffrey Dahmer story. having said that, I only watched one episode and had to turn it off because it was too grim for me, which I know sounds crazy when I recommend things like Pen Pal and it follows. But, you know, what Jeffrey Dahmer did was real, and it just, I, I personally couldn't handle it. also, if you like the creepy mannequin vibe, maybe go back to House of Wax with Paris Hilton for a fun little horror movie, making a Murderer if you're interested in another documentary where the puzzle pieces don't fit together. Then there's the Jinx, because that is another interview with a very creepy guy. And if you're looking for something with dogged, investigators and detectives who don't give up, I'll be gone in the Dark by Michelle McNamara, do you have any recommendations that you'd like to add to that?

Caroline 44:17

I mean the jinx with a much more satisfying hot mic situation than this one where he clearly knew he had a hot mic'cause he was staging it. I, I'll Be Gone In the Dark, is also just so beautiful and good. And the other thing I will say is I often find something is gruesome, a docuseries that I can't really watch. I mentioned True Crime Obsessed, which is a podcast that covers documentaries. I can listen to the storyline and not have to watch the actual, like horrified faces, traumatic events, people being scared and upset, et cetera. So I would recommend any of these cases we've mentioned throughout this conversation, including Making a Murderer They Cover. So you could go and listen to those if gore and, and people's terror is a little too much for you.

Anne 45:04

All right, so we've covered some pretty grim stuff over the past couple episodes. So your homework assignment is to listen to something that's quite a bit lighter. I'd like you to listen to the first nine episodes of the podcast, ghosts in the I chose this because I personally love it. I've listened to the whole thing twice through, but also because of the link to paranormal investigators as Liz Sauer, the host of ghosts and the burbs loves ghost hunting shows. And, it's just a bit of fun and I hope you enjoy it. So. Thank you for listening. Please do all the things podcasters asked you to do. Tell a friend, write a review on iTunes, and if like Shirley Jackson, you delight in what you fear. Join us again in two weeks here at Drawn to Darkness. Special thanks to Nancy Ano for our cover art. You can find her on Facebook at Nancy Ano Art and Harry Kid for our intro and outro music. You can find him on Spotify.