5 - Ghosts in the Burbs by Liz Sower

Do your friends think you’re weird because you find slasher films relaxing and can drift off into a dreamless sleep after a serial killer documentary? We're here for you. Welcome back to Drawn to Darkness, the podcast where we deep dive on our favourite horror and true crime. In this episode, we’re discussing Ghosts in the Burbs, Liz Sauer’s delightfully creepy podcast that reads like Real Housewives meets The Exorcist and Poltergeist—with a little Pinterest board, Joanna Gaines envy on the side.

Liz interviews neighbors in the New England suburb of Wellesley, Massachusetts—a place dripping in generational wealth, expensive taste, and terrifying ghost stories. We unpack everything from Ouija boards to tapping poltergeists, demonic possessions, fashion envy, Catholic guilt, and why (the mayonnaise of) motherhood might be the scariest horror trope of all. These first 8 episodes of GITB include bunk beds, suburban covens, privileged moms with dark secrets, and one very creepy paint scraper. Expect relatable mom confessions, literary tangents, and a little real talk about envy, privilege, and why we’re drawn to darkness in the first place. Also, one of us may or may not have ordered Domino’s while pregnant from a doctor's office parking lot.

Spoiler alert and Trigger warning:
We cover the first 8 (or is it 9?) episodes of Ghosts in the Burbs and yes, there are major plot spoilers ahead. This episode includes discussion of post-partum depression, home invasions, trauma and PTSD, sexual assault (in the context of Back to the Future, Catholicism and possession.

Palate Cleanser
Amy Poehler’s new podcast. For when you want funny, low-key conversations that aren’t haunted. (Bonus: Paul Rudd talking about Wet Hot American Summer. You’re welcome.)

Also: Back to the Future. Yes, there’s an upsetting scene. But seriously, it’s a perfect movie.

Recommendations if you like Ghosts in the Burbs:

• Come Closer by Sara Gran – possession horror
• The Exorcist by William Peter Blatty – the iconic possession story that inspired decades of demonic media
• The Winter People and The Invited by Jennifer McMahon – Vermont coziness meets ghostly secrets
• The Sundown Motel by Simone St. James – 80s ghosts, missing girls, twin timelines
• The Conjuring – Classic haunted house vibes  (with jump scares!)
• The Ice Storm (film) – wealthy suburban repression and tragedy in 1970s New England
• Radio Rental – real-life horror stories that sound too strange to be true
• The ‘Burbs (1989) – Tom Hanks suburban paranoia done right
• Scared to Death – A podcast of paranormal stories with a creepy-fun twist and delightful husband and wife banter

Homework: 

Next week, we shift from fictional ghost stories to real-life horrors. Your assignment? Pour a drink of anything but chardonnay (Joking! Like what you like!), dim the lights, and watch Spotlight, Tom McCarthy’s Oscar-winning film about the Boston Globe’s investigation into clergy abuse. This one’s heavy but important.

Thanks for joining us on this haunted suburban stroll. Review us, share with your fellow horror and true crime weirdos, and remember—if you find yourself considering buying a haunted designer handbag on Facebook Marketplace, maybe just close the app.

Special thanks to Nancy Azano for providing our cover art. You can find her on Instagram @nancyazano. 

And Harry Kidd for composing and recording our opening score. His Instagram is @harryjkidd and you can also find him on Spotify. https://open

Transcript

Anne 0:11

back to Drawn to Darkness, a biweekly podcast where we discuss our favorite horror and true crime. If your friends think you're weird because you find slasher films relaxing and can drift off into a dreamless sleep after a serial killer documentary, we're here for you. My name is Annie and I'll be introducing Caroline. It's my favorite horror movies, podcasts, TV shows, books, and short stories.

Caroline 0:32

And my name is Caroline and I'll be doing the same for Annie on the true crime side of things

Anne 0:36

I wanna start today with a question. Caroline, do you have a ghost story or a hometown ghost story, something that talked about in your town?

Caroline 0:45

I mean other than the classic New England the reservoir used to be a town that they flooded No I do not What about you

Anne 0:54

I've got a few, not really a hometown one that I can remember. I'd have to really think about that, but I have a few personal ones. I used to work at this called Judge Roy Bean in Bristol, Rhode Island, which is kind of a famous sight of, the American Revolution and stuff like that. We have the longest running parade in the country. The, center line of the road is painted red, white, and blue, very patriotic place. And this bar was in this really old colonial era building that, you know, rumor has, it used to be a brothel and a home for, who'd lost their husbands at sea. I don't know if any of that's actually true, but that's what we were told when we worked there. you know, people who worked there, and I don't know if they were putting me on would say there was like a hat man in the basement and we always had to go down there to get, supplies and, And I was terrified every time I went into that basement. one time I was having a drink after work with one of the other bartenders and we could turn the intercom on to the third floor and we would hear whispers, probably nothing, but it was a creepy, creepy place. And then my other maybe ghost story is at my brother's house. He used to live in one of those ranch houses that had multi-level. So you could up the staircase from the playroom to level upstairs. It was like half a staircase. And. They used to always hear things in that playroom. And I was sleeping in that playroom when I went to visit them. And time when I was kind of drifting off to sleep, I saw out of the corner of my eye what looked like a little boy run past at the top of the stairs. And they have all sorts of ghost stories from that house, like just constant toys turning on when they shouldn't have. And brother's mother-in-law would take care of their actual kids and she used to say like, quiet down now and then it would stop. What do you think?

Caroline 2:42

So this would be a good time to let our listeners know that I do not believe in Ghost and you do so

Anne 2:49

I'm open. I'm open to the possibility.

Caroline 2:51

So can I ask you a question

Anne 2:53

Mm-hmm.

Caroline 2:54

As as a open to believing person and this relates to your story as well as things we heard about in this series why might spirits be obsessed with opening and closing cabinets turning toys on and off and other tap tap tapping type of behaviors

Anne 3:14

Have you seen the TV show Ghosts? It's an English series about a couple who. Move into like this, they inherit this like amazing old English manor and it's haunted. most of the ghosts can't, they have like limited powers, but they're trying to communicate. They're trying to tap and like, but they just can't manipulate our world. But they're trying. So that would be my theory on that.

Caroline 3:36

So they're trying to like tell you something

Anne 3:38

They're trying to get through to you in some way. And I think that process is seen in the movie Ghost as well, a Demi Moore, Patrick

Caroline 3:45

Sure

Anne 3:46

right? Like how he's slowly able to kind of increase his powers to connect with her

Caroline 3:52

If only we had more Whoopi Goldbergs around you know

Anne 3:56

us if only that movie were a documentary and not total fiction. Maybe we could believe it.

Caroline 4:01

Also true

Anne 4:02

Well, today we're gonna be talking about the podcast Ghosts in the burbs. forget. will be spoilers. Today we're discussing the first nine episodes, which is really the first eight because episode four is missing. Or is it, maybe it comes up later. So go off and listen, then come back. I'm gonna give you a moment for you to pause if you need to do that. here we go. Ghost in the Burbs is a podcast and blog created by Liz Sauer, a fellow suburban New England mom, who like us, is drawn to darkness. In each episode, Liz interviews a neighbor to get a safe scare from their ghost story as she explores the supernatural happenings in the affluent town of Wellesley, Massachusetts. She hears tales of ghosts, cryptids, demons, Poltergeist, and more. And maybe if you keep listening, it's all connected. So I'd basically describe this as. Housewives meets the Exorcist and Poltergeist. It's like a campfire, ghost story mixed with an interior design and fashion Pinterest board, plus a dose of very self-deprecating humor about modern, motherhood and kind of being a hot mess. So Caroline, what adjective would you use to describe this?

Caroline 5:14

In true nonbeliever form I would say suspect I guess would be my main adjective

Anne 5:22

So you don't believe anything she's saying?

Caroline 5:24

No it's not that I don't believe anything she's saying and in particular when she's talking about some of these moms who she is very explicitly judging

Anne 5:37

Yes.

Caroline 5:38

About their Gravitas that she is feeling off of them whether they're presenting it or not I wonder if they're messing with her you know Sometimes I just wonder if they're having a go

Anne 5:52

so that, that people are making up their ghost stories and she's falling for it. Maybe.

Caroline 5:57

Yeah

Anne 5:58

Personally I would describe this as cozy, comforting, and at times very relatable. the first time I listened to it, I was training for the blessing of the Fleet run in Narragansett. And I just have really fond memories of running down these long rural New England roads that were. Just trees on either side with no cars going by me and being just like a little bit scared, but also really enjoying that, solitude and the feel of those stories. for me it's like curling up in front of a fire with a hot chocolate after being out in the snow. I've. Listen to the full 70 something episodes twice, which is quite common for fans. I'm on the ghosts and the Burs fan page and a lot of people have listened like 3, 4, 5 times i'm actually considering a third go now that I've re-listened to those first eight episodes because I just really love it. And the only thing that's stopping me is that there's so many other things to listen to. And I only have limited podcast time and I've got about a million podcasts I'd like to listen to.

Caroline 6:58

The most relatable thing I think, I feel is listening to you talk about wanting to listen to a podcast for the third time and being like but there are so many other podcasts out there

Anne 7:08

I know you've mentioned listening to, what was that, that true crime Obsessed one multiple times.

Caroline 7:14

Yes In particular I've actually listened to and watched everything about the Jinx case Many many times from the series itself to the official podcast about it to the true crime obsessed coverage of the podcast about it I really love that case in particular So

Anne 7:33

The Jinx is somewhat local to you, is that right?

Caroline 7:36

It's actually nearby where I live now Robert Durst briefly lived in my area and would be seen walking around town and certainly his wife Kathy who went missing actually the train I would use to go to New York City is the train station she supposedly disappeared from which she never went to in my opinion and I do drive by the street where their house is that I believe he killed her in So yeah

Anne 8:02

seen that documentary once. I thought it was awesome. What another weirdo, Robert Durst,

Caroline 8:07

right

Anne 8:08

like, uh, mark Goodyear. Similar vibes.

Caroline 8:11

Uh yeah

Anne 8:11

Yeah.

Caroline 8:12

totally

Anne 8:13

If you're wondering what we're talking about, go back to our previous episode on the Fox Hollow Murders. Well, let's talk about Liz, the narrator. You point out that she's judgy, which is

Caroline 8:23

Mm-hmm

Anne 8:24

So Liz is a, as I said, self-deprecating, stay-at-home mom, who wants a safe scare? Agree that she's judgy, but I also find her relatable. You know, the idea that she refers to needing a Unisom to sleep, I'm, I'm not a great sleeper, that she admits that she yells at her kids and leaves the house looking like shit. She was a librarian. I've always wanted to be a librarian. She's a writer, aspiring, struggling, whatever you wanna call it when you can't get published. So am I. She preps for the zombie apocalypse. I used to have a zombie cupboard in my house. And I feel like we've also had this somewhat similar journey in that we both had small kids in the, you know, 20 teens when she started this. And just in general, we have similar taste in horror. I find. I love her book, podcast, TV show recommendations,

Caroline 9:07

he mentions Jaws

Anne 9:08

She talks about jaws. Yes. That was one of my favorite moments when she refers to herself as Chief Brody

Caroline 9:15

Mm-hmm

Anne 9:15

at everyone to get out of the water.

Caroline 9:17

Yeah I gotta say sometimes you hate something because it highlights what you hate about yourself And I think I think you could agree that I'm a pretty judgy person So sometimes when I'm listening to her I'm like God relax cause she's not negatively judging people Usually it's with envy she's talking about impossibly perfect buns and fashion which I can relate to because I think we both had the experience of growing up in wealthy areas not being as wealthy as all the people around us and so I can relate to that but I felt it it was a little like exhausting But maybe that's just because it was drawing out something about myself that I would rather not recognized

Anne 10:06

I, I mostly enjoy the judgy aside, so I kind of get a kick out of them. But

Caroline 10:10

Mm-hmm

Anne 10:11

think the setting, contributes to that overwhelming feeling of wealth. Like she's surrounded by wealth, which is very New England. And as you said, I grew up feeling poor in a wealthy New England town. So I get that feeling of not measuring up, Like we only lived there because my parents worked at this boarding school and we lived in campus housing and ate the crappy food at the dining hall that was provided to us for free. So I felt a lot of envy for the people in my life who did live in the type of homes that Liz describes. And we were fine, right? Like we had everything we needed, I grew up feeling poor that my parents. Didn't buy me a fancy car, take me skiing so I get Liz's envy of those Wellesley power moms and queen bees. I get it now as a grownup, you know, like I still of feel, that a lot of people around me are wealthier than me and there are those parents who look good at school pick up and drop off, and that's definitely not me. And don't have the time or energy or inclination to volunteer for all the things and also keep my house tidy

Caroline 11:15

Yeah totally I too live in an area where I'm not at the top of the people we are around all the time but yeah, It doesn't impact my engagement with people as much as it did in my youth I'll say for sure

Anne 11:31

Well, probably maturity into that where you're like, you know what? It doesn't

Caroline 11:35

Well

Anne 11:35

have that.

Caroline 11:36

You know, I remember standing around in a park in our town when I was a full-time working mom and never volunteered for anything never involved with anything talking to all these PTA moms And we had this great conversation that was very mutual about like everyone recognizing the value each other brings And everyone being equally as important for our children to see us being as moms like see us being the involved mom the working mom who wants to be working you know that that it all sort of plays a role in showing our girls they can be whatever they choose to be And that's really what feminism is right So I think actually ripping off that bandaid of engaging with the people who I would've envied otherwise also helped a lot

Anne 12:23

I mean, thank God for the PTA moms because

Caroline 12:26

the hell yeah

Anne 12:27

gotta do it, right? The schools are still, in this kind of backwards 1950 system where they're assuming that there are people around to volunteer. And the reality is a lot of us can't. We're overstretched and, I'm glad that somebody steps up and does it because it's not gonna be me. know, I'm, I'm a teacher and, teaching, really bleeds into your life. So even the hours, I'm not teaching, I'm I'm prepping classes, it's a lot and I'm exhausted and I also wanna have time for things like this. So, I do tend to prioritize myself over volunteering. For the school. I mean, I, I volunteer for stuff like I'll, I, I always say I can show up at an event, but I can't plan it.

Caroline 13:06

Yeah And you know I was very career oriented Immensely and I've taken a step back from working and now and being more involved in the school and I think also seeing both sides I mean I'm never gonna be the presentable perfect bun mom that I have curly hair It's just not happening

Anne 13:23

Well back to Liz and the humor aspect of it. We've already mentioned the chief birdie from Jaws comment. I love that. I like the way she finds humor in parenthood, like when she talks about wanting to leave her daughter behind because she's licked the car.

Caroline 13:35

Mm-hmm

Anne 13:36

licked a drain once, and I remember my son sucked water out of a stagnant puddle, so I'm like, yeah,

Caroline 13:43

Yeah

Anne 13:43

I get that.

Caroline 13:44

I I turned around in the grocery store and one of my kids was licking the inside of a freezer door like where your where your milk and stuff is behind so yeah

Anne 13:54

I think my favorite, funny moment is when she's in that pregnancy ravenous mode and she's sitting across from like this really thin, put together woman who's eating a salad while she's gorging on a burger. And then this woman leaves her salad half finished and Liz has to like stop herself from asking to finish it. as someone who ordered a Domino's Pizza from the doctor's office parking lot after my doctor told me I'd been gaining too much weight, I found that very relatable.

Caroline 14:22

Well and on my side as a person who has never been able to participate in any sort of diet program because I just cannot like if I am hungry for a burger or a piece of toast that is what I'm going to eat And I don't care I am a person who gets hangry and I want to eat what I want to eat So I definitely related to that I did appreciate that she had a glass of wine while pregnant. I, was a person who was very careful about it. With my first pregnancy, with my second pregnancy, I had maybe a glass a month, my third, maybe a little more than that. I mean, certainly it wasn't getting like blackout drunk or anything like that, but I did read a lot of articles shared to me by other pregnant moms, et cetera, talking about The patriarchy and paranoia that are involved in this, you must not even, you know, consume any sort of deli meat or whatever. I am not a doctor. Nobody take medical advice from me, but I did appreciate that she unafraid or seemingly unafraid to share that she enjoyed a glass while pregnant without fearing judgment.

Anne 15:29

Relatable, definitely. My favorite glass of wine while pregnant story was I had a friend who was an obstetrician at the hospital where I was going to be delivering my daughter, and I went to a party at her house when I was like eight months pregnant. Pregnant and literally all her friends were her fellow like obstetricians. And I was like, I'm just gonna have one. And I don't care what any of you say. And everyone was really supportive.

Caroline 15:52

My ob for my first child, was like, don't even smell it, you know? And then the second OB told me that she had a beer every day while she was pregnant. So she was just like, you don't need to kind of go crazy, about the damage you're gonna do.

Anne 16:08

Thanks, Liz, for letting us know. It's okay.

Caroline 16:09

Yeah

Anne 16:10

In terms of other people feeling the same way I do, I think I mentioned there's a ghost in the burbanites Facebook page and there's four and a half thousand members, which kind of speaks to Liz's reach. I asked them what do they love about this podcast? And this is from a fan. She says, it feels like you're having coffee or tea with a friend who's sharing ghostly gossip. People talk about loving the characters, both ones that are one-offs and reoccur like Nick Sayer will keep coming back. Vanessa Hillary and Jill Claire, we haven't met Biddy yet, but she's a great character. Just this great world building that will continue if you do keep listening, and start to suspect, you know, perhaps there's more going on in Wellesley than a few unrelated ghost stories. of these women, and it is, I think it's almost all women, talk about being pregnant or postpartum or injured or recovering from some of loss, trauma, grief, and then for whatever reason happening across this and finding comfort in it., let's talk about some of the non ghostly aspects, like her descriptions of New England interior design.

Caroline 17:12

Being a person who's not as artistically oriented as you For sure I didn't notice that as much as I noticed a lot of fashion commentary and car commentary because I remember being like I wish I knew enough about fashion to be able to say I dunno anything but Lululemon Like honestly I dunno Any brands but I do absolutely relate to the whole like big suburban white boat of a car that all of the very perfect seeming wealthy moms in my area drive

Anne 17:44

Yeah, I agree. The fashion stuff I don't relate to. I've never coveted designer, like she mentions like a Chloe bag or I can't even remember which designer, but some designer sunglasses and I'm like, whatever. But I do tend to salivate over interior design magazines and all the things I can't afford to do. I mean, again, I used to babysit in houses like this, so, you know, the Adirondack chairs, the great rooms, the big windows, and how creeped out I would feel when, you know, it got dark and you're only seeing your reflection as you waited for the parents to come home. I can picture that so perfectly, even if I didn't live in it.

Caroline 18:20

Yeah And I will say like I lived in a town where you didn't need curtains your neighbors were not anywhere near you So I absolutely relate to that whole aspect of once it's dark actually when I lived in New York City then coming home to sleep and you just hear like a deer Crack a branch and you're like what was that Because there's no other sounds you know And so all of those one-off sounds then suddenly freak you out Like there's something to be scared of as opposed to the constant buzz of living in a downtown area I still live in the suburbs but I live in the middle of the town So I even remember in Covid going outside and being like where's that hum like there's no cars going by I'm so used to a constant busyness

Anne 19:07

I have a neighbor who drives a Harley and used to take it at five 30 in the morning to work. So I had to get used to quite a few sounds here. Well let's talk about the stories. So there's the woman with the new baby in the perfect house whose husband sees something in the basement but won't say what it is. There's, Nick Sayer and the Ouija board. There's the Dump Swap and the sailors Valentine. There's the home invasion. There's the Zilla woman, that's probably my least favorite of this batch. And then

Caroline 19:36

Yeah

Anne 19:36

the, um, coven of Queen Bees, Hillary, Vanessa, and, uh, Jill, which was your favorite?

Caroline 19:44

I think the Covenant Queen Bees was my favorite keeping in mind I don't believe any of these stories to be real personally I love the mean girls aspect I guess of those friends And they're picture perfect They all married their high school sweethearts All of that I was immediately suspicious about like okay I'm gonna Google this girl falling off a boat And then it was quick oh well we have a reason why when you Google that you won't find anything A a lot of it was just like I thought of something and then there was a coverup quickly and I was just like okay what about the boyfriend then Could I not look up him killing himself on that same lake and someone not mentioning that his girlfriend died there I I loved it because it seemed scripted more so I guess than the other ones

Anne 20:37

Okay. you are saying that these women are unreliable narrators.

Caroline 20:41

Yeah Yes

Anne 20:43

right. You'll

Caroline 20:43

Yes

Anne 20:44

more later if you keep listening. Um,

Caroline 20:46

Okay

Anne 20:47

yeah, I mean, I, I love the opening of this story because there is more to it. I like that aspect of be careful what you wish for, you know, which

Caroline 20:55

Mm-hmm

Anne 20:55

of classic short stories like the Monkey's Paw and, button Button by Richard Matheson. And, we go back even further to like the Midas Touch, they got what they wanted, did

Caroline 21:05

Mm-hmm

Anne 21:05

they got what they thought they wanted and then there's these awful repercussions they all seem pretty miserable, you know, beneath the veneer of perfection and wealth. I wonder if Liz was inspired by something that actually happened in my town. Because in 2009, so I think Liz started this podcast in 2016, there were some teenagers out on a boat and they were drinking and one fell off and either got hit in the head or run over or drowned. that happened in my town and like like an hour outside Wellesley. I should ask her someday she's on the ghost in the Braves Facebook page, so

Caroline 21:40

It was also very reminiscent of the Murdoch family In the US there is a story of a very wealthy family in one of the Carolinas who um the son was involved in a drunken boat crash where a girlfriend of a boy dies and it's kind of the first in series of suspicious murders that occur in this family

Anne 22:03

Are, are these the same? Murdochs as in like Rupert Murdoch?

Caroline 22:06

No it's spelled differently as well but No and they're American They're not um this isn't the Australian

Anne 22:14

The

Caroline 22:14

Yeah

Anne 22:14

Australian. Those

Caroline 22:16

yeah yeah

Anne 22:17

Well, there's a lot of wealthy Murdochs causing problems. Hey.

Caroline 22:20

yeah A lot of wealthy people cussing problems

Anne 22:24

Oh yes. Can we talk about the Ouija board a little bit? Nick Sayer, and he is Ouija. Board Knight.

Caroline 22:32

Yeah so I know we talked about this previously I had a Ouija board I had sleepovers where we used the Ouija board I have been a part of the Ouija board moving and I have been a mover of it I have also been a person who knew someone else was moving you know also wait sorry to take a tangent here But wasn't it like inappropriate Pictionary or something that she's so fixated on Well how is that not clear what that is

Anne 22:59

know, right? I, I I can imagine.

Caroline 23:01

It continues two episodes later She's like and I still don't know what that is I'm like you don't

Anne 23:07

I know what Dirty Pictionary is.

Caroline 23:09

Yes Anyways sorry but yeah I find it very silly the whole thought that This this thing that is mass produced by a corporation can like conjure spirits somehow in a way that nothing else could

Anne 23:26

Well, I've been thinking about would I never do it? Why have I never done it? Why does it scare me? Even though everything you're saying is more rational than what I'm thinking. so, do you remember when, in like the eighties and nineties, they used to scare us about drugs? Right? Like you do LSD one time and it's gonna

Caroline 23:44

Of course

Anne 23:45

right?

Caroline 23:46

Also sex Like did you watch the movie Kids I was terrified of getting AIDS the first time I had sex

Anne 23:52

that you could make one mistake and it would

Caroline 23:55

Mm-hmm

Anne 23:55

life forever. Like that was a big way of scaring us in that era. So,

Caroline 24:01

For sure

Anne 24:01

I know this doesn't make

Caroline 24:02

In the pre-internet era Sorry

Anne 24:04

Yes, the pre-internet era, I feel like it's the same thing with a Ouija board. Like you play around with it, you'll probably be fine. But if you do it at the wrong time, with the wrong thing lurking, when you're kind of opening up that door or thinning the veil, it could haunt you for life. And again, I know silly. Do I actually believe in this stuff? I'd like to say no, but at the same time, would I ever mess around with the Ouija board? No, I wouldn't. No one could ever make me mess around with the Ouija board. I would never do it.

Caroline 24:35

Listen as the the logical skeptic here I will say That's fair That's fair

Anne 24:41

Why

Caroline 24:41

I was very freaked out by that one thing could ruin your whole life narrative So I get it I get it

Anne 24:47

Why take a chance? What if it is real? what about the Dump Swap and the sailors Valentine? What did you think of that one?

Caroline 24:57

Well okay so the jump swap thing I just didn't understand She was like take this painting

Anne 25:01

Yeah,

Caroline 25:02

you're just like why don't you just leave it somewhere I don't why do you need this other person to take care of this just take it to an actual dump

Anne 25:09

So I guess

Caroline 25:10

you know

Anne 25:10

What do you do with a haunted object? What do you do with a haunted house? And is explored throughout the podcast. Like if you have a haunted house and you know it's haunted and you sell it to somebody, how complicit are you? If you give somebody a haunted object that you know is cursed, you know, and it's caused your family trouble? And I think the first story,

Caroline 25:30

Yeah

Anne 25:31

on

Caroline 25:31

The haunted house one

Anne 25:32

Yeah.

Caroline 25:33

And and I will say having taken business law depending on what state you're in you cannot do that legally if you know that there's an issue with that house I don't think you can say it's haunted but if you can say there's you've experienced issues and you haven't disclosed it

Anne 25:50

there's

Caroline 25:50

get in legal trouble

Anne 25:51

But what if

Caroline 25:52

Yeah

Anne 25:52

are not recognized by the law? I mean, you're saying I don't believe in

Caroline 25:55

True

Anne 25:56

but you do

Caroline 25:57

Yeah

Anne 25:58

people on like, Facebook marketplace will sell haunted dolls and they're like, this is haunted and people will, will take them. So

Caroline 26:07

Yeah There are a bunch of Rob Graves is out there

Anne 26:09

crazy people out there. Yeah, I

Caroline 26:11

Back to the box hollow but also back to it follows I even as a nonbeliever of this stuff when I heard that person be like I saw that other family go into this house or I knew of this other family I just was like ick

Anne 26:28

Yeah.

Caroline 26:29

I guess was my feeling like if you really genuinely believe there's a problem here how you can pass that problem on to another person I don't really understand

Anne 26:40

Yeah. You would definitely be complicit, but at the same time, a house, not selling a house you can't live in would ruin most people financially. Right.

Caroline 26:49

for sure

Anne 26:50

Uh,

Caroline 26:50

not getting rid of a painting wouldn't ruin you know like just go get rid of that painting

Anne 26:55

beds, right? The bunk bed story.

Caroline 26:57

Mm-hmm Mm-hmm

Anne 26:58

that he doesn't know what to do with the bunk bed and he realizes his family has actually held onto these haunted bunk beds the whole time. For me, that was the scariest I.

Caroline 27:07

Okay And for me that made me the most aggravated because at the end of that she says she's calling the police And I was like did this woman really call the police on this guy You know as a person who doesn't believe this stuff could be real Did she really like see something in his back pocket and call the freaking cops on him like in my eyes as a person who doesn't believe understanding that that I couldn't possibly understand her point of view I will say I was immediately like oh my gosh that's so dangerous to try to call the police on somebody

Anne 27:40

Yeah.

Caroline 27:40

especially you know I'm sure we're gonna talk about the privilege of these people in this town and and calling the police on certain people versus other people couldn't be a very dangerous thing to do

Anne 27:51

a good

Caroline 27:51

you know

Anne 27:52

I mean, this guy's probably like a 50 something year old businessman, so he'll be fine.

Caroline 27:57

Yes He'll be fine

Anne 27:58

That was my favorite story though. I really liked the imagery of the brother just walking around with this paint scraper, like, Damien or something from the omen and the way he says he needs something and then I know what he needs and he tries to kill his brother. I thought that was really creepy, and just the way you could take this innocuous object, this red handled paint scraper and imbue it with such horror. I like that.

Caroline 28:24

And I also appreciate you know there tends to be these kind of wealthy not working wives telling these stories And I personally started to be like you know you need like a real problem are you just creating something to make your life interesting or whatever for some of these wives But to then to hear this man who's a professional and an older man and not not the person you'd classically hear tell a ghost story

Anne 28:54

Well, that's interesting. There is a societal higher value placed on men's opinions, which is not right. I remember once, oh, it was at my daughter's school and they were having a Mother's Day event. During the work day, and then they had the Father's Day event on like a Friday night or something, because God forbid the men have to take off work, right? Like of course the women

Caroline 29:15

Right

Anne 29:16

I started to, you know, type out this email about how that was sexist and unfair. And then my husband was like, uh, do you want me to write it? Like, I agree. And I was like, yeah, yeah, that's great. It'll be better if it comes from you. And then I was like, shit, that's not

Caroline 29:29

right

Anne 29:30

it should be

Caroline 29:30

I know

Anne 29:31

coming from me, but it

Caroline 29:32

I know

Anne 29:33

valid if a man points out the sexism that sucks.

Caroline 29:36

Yeah it does suck And I I wanna make it clear No way do I think his story's more true than anyone else's story I just thought it was interesting to hear from a different demographic I had a very clear picture in my mind of oh these people have a lot of free time and don't really have a lot going on either messing with this woman or just imagining themselves to be more important than they are And to hear someone who is busy all day and is not the same as everyone else was an interesting shift for me to be like well what about that Maybe you should not be such a skeptic

Anne 30:15

On the podcast, scared to death. They have, listener stories. And often whenever a story comes in from somebody who's a soldier or a police officer or a doctor, they tend to be like, oh, it must be true, right? Because we do think that these people are more rational and cynical and are less likely to get carried away involved for this kind of stuff if it's not real.

Caroline 30:37

mm-hmm

Anne 30:38

we should be valuing or believing their stories more than others is probably not right, but at the same time, it's natural to do that.

Caroline 30:45

For sure

Anne 30:45

So episode five is the Home Invasion one, the neighbor who has a high school student because she had this experience being called Carrie. And I just wanna flag that because over the next few episodes I'm going to recommend the novel Carrie. And it might take a little bit more time to read that since it's an actual full book. So I just wanted to put that out there that at some point I wanna read that. I think this is the darkest story, that horrible moment of being asked to choose the way you die. Thought that was the scariest.

Caroline 31:15

I agree I was listening to that while driving and it really was very jarring to hear this horrific story of what happened to that person again did not put as much stock in this spirit that overtook the guy but I was very very moved by the story of the horrific thing that happened to them and their family

Anne 31:40

the trauma that follows,

Caroline 31:42

Totally

Anne 31:43

that doesn't go away. And, she asks Liz, have you ever really been scared? Because Liz

Caroline 31:48

Right

Anne 31:49

the safe scare, the fun, scare, the chills. But like, if you've actually been scared because you're in real danger, it's not fun anymore. And I think that's really important to point out because, otherwise. Are we by being drawn to darkness, exploiting people's horror, so we need to be aware of that.

Caroline 32:08

I I didn't actually love that question of hi have you ever really been scared Because I am sure that every person has had some sort of near death experience or scary thing happen I mean I always hear about my brother almost drowning or my husband almost getting in car accidents and I recently was stuck in an elevator It was scary But we we have all had traumatic things I think I've mentioned before like a lot of why I consume This category of entertainment I guess is to quell that anxiety that's like constantly in me to feel like I'm doing research to protect myself and others from how to prevent these things from happening like oh now I now I've listened to my favorite murder so I know to lock my fucking door or whatever which I never would've done before Um, you know

Anne 32:59

security guard who knocks on your door.

Caroline 33:01

right and fuck politeness you know like, and I remember actually saying to my mom who had cancer and had a doctor a male doctor who was not taking her seriously and being like fuck politeness is what my podcast told me And you need to get yourself a doctor who takes you seriously And she might've lived longer because of that Who knows And and you know kudos to that storyteller for being so brave and wanting to go first and and all that I think that was pretty I don't know significant

Anne 33:30

Yeah. Another thing I wanna point out about that story is the Catholic mom, Nancy, because

Caroline 33:35

Mm-hmm

Anne 33:36

mom, Nancy. She's actually, if you've noticed our cover art, that is my mom and she painted that. She's very Catholic. And the way this mom says, come back to us, that sounds a lot like something my mom has said to me about being Catholic and not being particularly interested in going to church. So, That just, um,, felt cozy to me even though I'm not a practicing Catholic anymore. I know what it's like to have a mom who feels that way.

Caroline 34:02

Yeah and I I I will say that the Catholicism angle plays into my skepticism I think Ricky Gervais actually has the best description of why I'm an atheist like you just happen to be born this place where they believe this thing And and so you're genuinely sure that that is true and the burden of proof hasn't been met and that element of in the name of Jesus Christ I demand you get out of my son with this paint scraper You know I was sort of like how lucky you are that this spirit believed in Jesus Christ it does make me quite skeptical about some aspects of these stories you know how could they possibly be true There's 1,000,000,001 things you could believe

Anne 34:48

I'm gonna spoil something here. So if you have a problem with that, skip ahead. Okay. Spoiler. These stories aren't real. They're all fictional.

Caroline 34:55

Are they real Because I tried to look this up and everywhere she says they're real everywhere Like that I was looking up Okay

Anne 35:04

so,

Caroline 35:04

knew it

Anne 35:05

you can't Google these stories. They're fake. She never admits to it online, but like they're fake.

Caroline 35:10

No she never does Which because I was like there is no way that there's this many people in this one town because I grew up In New England I lived in a house that was a brothel and I've never encountered anyone who had a single ghost story So I was like this seems crazy that all of these people would come into her with these stories Plus the other thing I will say is that everyone speaks like her when when she's telling the story of the commercial with the estate guy with the paint scraper thing I was like this guy has the same cadence and whatever as she does this seems really weird But then I was like well she is a writer Maybe she's recrafting these things She's telling the story But earlier she talked about having a recorder So I was like it you know Alright Thank you

Anne 36:02

You're welcome. I feel like you feel silly that you thought it was real, but I really wanna reassure you that, on the ghosts in the burs Facebook page, like seriously every couple weeks, somebody's coming on there and being like, wait, is this not real? So you are not the only one. And, and me too, when I first started listening, it took me quite a few episodes to have that moment in my head where I was like, this doesn't feel real to me.

Caroline 36:27

Yeah. I did, I did feel

Anne 36:29

Yeah.

Caroline 36:30

you told me.

Anne 36:31

Well, as I was starting to figure out that you thought it was real, I felt like, um, Christophe, after watching Olaf Sing in summer, like somebody's gonna tell him, I gotta tell her, you know?

Caroline 36:45

Oh my God. Such a good analogy.

Anne 36:49

All right. You've mentioned, that you found Liz a bit judgy, right? Do you have any other criticism?

Caroline 36:54

I think it would've been better if she had had the storytellers sound more different than the way she speaks I think they sounded very similar to her in their phraseology

Anne 37:08

Okay.

Caroline 37:09

Um and and how they sent to uh structure sentences

Anne 37:13

sentenced.

Caroline 37:13

the other yeah how they sentenced themselves Uh, also she interjects a lot with no way And like all these shocked expressions she's kind like no way Get out when I'm like isn't this what you were here for

Anne 37:30

Mm-hmm.

Caroline 37:30

It It's a little confusing to me that kind of thing

Anne 37:33

she gets more subtle with that as time goes on, This is a minor thing, but I find the outro way too long. If I'm running or driving and I'm binging and I can't touch my phone, I just wanna get to the next episode. And this goes on for like minutes. So

Caroline 37:46

Mm

Anne 37:46

if you listen to this. Cut the outro. Okay. general, I think, and we've touched on this, the lack of awareness of privilege. I

Caroline 37:54

Yeah

Anne 37:54

she's surrounded by so much wealth, she can be a bit out of touch anyone can be right? Everybody's got different levels of income and ease and difficulty. And when you're wrapped up in your own stuff, it can be hard to remember that it's more difficult for someone else. example, there's one point where Liz kind of disparages her j crew scarf cause it's not like a proper designer. And I'm like, I was never able to justify spending money on something as expensive as a j Crew scarf to this day. I, I wouldn't buy a J Crew scarf. I'd, I'd love to be able to afford to

Caroline 38:21

Well

Anne 38:21

at J Crew. So like J Crew's a step down for her She looks at it with disdain, that was always aspirational for me. But again, I'm sure there are people who look at the way I spend my money and would think you're so privileged too and you're not aware of it.

Caroline 38:34

Yeah I would agree And I I did feel like as a person who like I mentioned earlier in this episode I've taken a step back from working It's only because I had parents who passed and I will have to go right back to working very very soon back to really trying to get a job right now and so a lot of her talking about these people and their wealth when she's in the same kind of situation not needing to work I definitely was like well I I don't know how different you you really are I mean maybe you're insecure fashion wise but I don't know

Anne 39:08

Overall, though I think she's a good person who makes mistakes, she changes, she listens to feedback. You know, in later episodes she refers to Halloween as our high holy season. And you know, people who are Jewish were like, you know, that's actually kind of appropriating something that's important to us to talk about ghosts and Halloween and pumpkin spice lattes. Maybe you shouldn't do that. And she was like, yeah, okay, I'll stop. another thing she talks about a lot is s saging homes, which is a cultural appropriation of a Native American practice. So, you know, she acknowledges that she changes her language, she does her best. overall I think she's imperfect. Like, aren't we all but doing her best and responding to feedback and making changes.

Caroline 39:50

Yeah I think that's great and important to note like a big thing I was nervous about about doing a podcast in the first place was how much I imagined that I would slip up and not recognize things And mistakenly insult people et cetera And so I really appreciate you know I fully intend to always be like whoops I messed up and I'll do better And I absolutely appreciate anytime anyone else does that

Anne 40:15

Well, I hope if we ever get any listeners that they will treat our mistakes with grace and forgiveness. my only other criticism is Chardonnay Gross.

Caroline 40:24

Ew Chardonnay No way That's my rhyme

Anne 40:26

No way. We do have a friend who's like into wine and she's like, no, there can be good Chardonnays. I don't know.

Caroline 40:32

So I've heard

Anne 40:33

I

Caroline 40:34

no one's ever proven it just like ghosts

Anne 40:37

Okay,

Caroline 40:37

I've I've heard it not nobody's ever made me believe it

Anne 40:42

so this mythical good. Chardonnay may or may not be out there. I'll believe it when I see

Caroline 40:47

Yeah exactly

Anne 40:49

Um, all right. So real horror beneath the surface, I think envy

Caroline 40:54

Yeah

Anne 40:55

the

Caroline 40:55

I agree I mean there were times when it was going on for a while and I was like girl I am sure that you look great don't worry so much about what the other person looks like or what the other person's driving or whatever You do you and be happy with you you know

Anne 41:11

and she's doing great. She's got 4,500

Caroline 41:14

Clearly Clearly Yeah

Anne 41:16

that's just the Facebook group, right?

Caroline 41:18

Right

Anne 41:19

let's see. I think you know, the trauma and real fear that the allure of darkness goes away. We talked about that earlier. So there, that brings up the necessity for respect for real victims who are actually impacted by darkness in our world. And that's not as big a problem with horror movies, but it's something to be aware with true crime.

Caroline 41:36

Well yeah I mean certainly if she made up the story about the home invasion I that could be very triggering I don't remember if she mentioned at the beginning of the episode you know the story contains mention of all that

Anne 41:48

they were doing that in 2016. Were they trigger warnings? Was that a thing yet?

Caroline 41:51

I don't think so I don't think so We haven't done any either So

Anne 41:55

do you think we should provide trigger warnings? I don't know. What do you, what do you think?

Caroline 41:59

Part of me is like if you're something to be about crime and horror, that it should be sort of expecting that some of these things are gonna come up. But I certainly don't wanna speak for people who've been through a trauma. I know that I expect to hear awful things when I listen to these subjects.

Anne 42:20

me too. I mean, there's certain things that I, I do wanna know I guess a dog dies, um, I wanna know if there's child sex abuse, and I wanna know if there's. Torture or rape. Those are the things that I don't wanna watch. I mean, maybe we should, uh, make a trigger warning for all the nineties references. We're going to be subjecting our audience to, if you are under the age of 35, you may feel excluded.

Caroline 42:43

for sure. Elder or millennial, right?

Anne 42:45

geriatric millennials, elder millennials. Um, yeah, take that generation alpha with your ski toilets and your riz. Don't worry, they don't listen to podcasts. They won't hear us, um, making fun of them. Especially not geriatric millennial podcasts. Well,

Caroline 43:02

you know

Anne 43:02

put trigger warnings in our show notes. Maybe we can learn. Okay.

Caroline 43:06

absolutely

Anne 43:08

be careful. If you look into the darkness, it might look back. That's one of the underlying themes of ghosts in the burbs. as the co-host of a podcast called Drawn To Darkness, we are looking into the darkness. Is there really such a thing as a safe scare?

Caroline 43:20

Yeah

Anne 43:21

and then I think the other true horror is the maez of, it maez or malaise?

Caroline 43:27

Malaise I think

Anne 43:28

Malaise.

Caroline 43:30

I

Anne 43:31

I. Um, the malaise of suburban motherhood. if we are looking for literary takes on that, you can go back and read Kate Chopin's, the Awakening and Madam Bovary, and there's the petty marital resentments. And, you know, one of the characters talks about, that feeling of devastation when as a stay at home mom with a baby, her husband says he's going to be home late. And, you know, I haven't spent that much time as a stay at home mom. I went back at three months with my daughter and after a luxurious six with my son. But, I do know that mix of exhaustion and boredom and joy. And I have had times where my husband's been like, I'm gonna be late.

44:06

And I'm like, no.

Caroline 44:09

Yeah Yeah I think my longest was four months with my third

Anne 44:14

I used to work at this toy shop and there was a woman there who's super wealthy and I know she was super wealthy'cause I babysat for her kids. had this massive house overlooking the water and you had the yacht club and it's the type of house Liz would admire. And she was doing this minimum wage job as a cashier at a toy shop with like kids in college. And I was like, why are you doing this? And she just said she needed an outlet. Like she needed conversation with adults. And lots of people from town would come in and she'd have a chance to chat with them and yeah.

Caroline 44:40

Yeah Yeah I mean as I mentioned I'm not working right now but I'm doing a lot of volunteering also to be engaging with adults about something that is not my family the blessing of maternity leave was to only have one of those switches on in my mind just the family switch and not both having to have both is exhausting but also one of them is very very very rewarding And the other one doesn't feel rewarding while it's happening but I guess well you know later it dies but very rarely in real time Do you feel like you're doing a good job as a parent

Anne 45:16

The days are long, the years are short or something. There's so saying about that.

Caroline 45:19

Supposedly Yeah So I hear

Anne 45:22

Yep. How scary was this for you?

Caroline 45:26

not I mean the home invasion one was scary but otherwise no because you know as I mentioned

Anne 45:33

Whether I believe it or not, I love those scary moments they're few down the track that if you keep listening, really get me, that safe shiver sort of way. It's not the type of horror that's gonna keep you awake at night. And also, I think the fact that you're listening and not viewing the interview format kind of removes the listener from the immediacy of the story. So the teller is removed because they're narrating it from the past and we're removed.'cause we're hearing it through Liz, and then there's that further step of removal because we can't see what's happening. So it feels safe.

Caroline 46:01

Right Yes Which I will say on the true crime side of things I way prefer listening To true crime things or documentaries because I can't actually handle the reactions of people who've really experienced these things I cannot handle having to witness the awfulness of things So the removal is definitely I think a necessity The one moment that actually did get me was the congratulations and then her finding out she's pregnant Like yeah that I was sort of like well that's weird but he could have said congratulations about anything

Anne 46:37

Hmm. But it was it was a moment where I was like oh that was good storytelling for sure Some of these episodes sort of remind me of Pen Pal, which is what we reviewed in episode one. It's nowhere nearly so disturbing. I mean, Liz's stuff is just kind of vaguely creepy and unsettling. But she often ends with that mic drop creepy moment, which is very reminiscent of creepy pastas. Like the idea that Jen from the Home Invasion Poltergeist story still has the attachment. Or the woman who's possessed by Zilla signs zilla on her credit card receipt. and my favorite one, which is the man that she views in that Fatherly Way and has been holding her baby, actually has the paint scraper in his back pocket the whole time. So that was something I loved about this. what do we learn about survival?

Caroline 47:25

Um

Anne 47:26

Don't play with the ouiji board.

Caroline 47:27

I mean Yeah Yeah Unlock your fucking door I mean uh cause that that was the only one where I was like what a scary thing to experience

Anne 47:38

Maybe don't summon ghosts like Hillary, Jill and Vanessa. Being thin and marrying your high school boyfriend probably isn't worth it.

Caroline 47:43

Yeah Although I mean was very very close with my grandfather He died suddenly when I was 10 And I remember just constantly feeling like I would do anything just to talk to him again just to hear his voice again I can certainly relate to that feeling of I wanna see my friend again You know and I've also had friends Who were my own age die And I have seen them in dreams and interacted with them in dreams And when I wake up I'm always so sad cause it was so lovely so I can totally relate to the desire to reconnect to someone you've lost

Anne 48:21

If Hillary, Jill and Vanessa are telling the truth about why they reconnected with Claire,

Caroline 48:26

if they even exist

Anne 48:29

Don't let your teenager bury their feelings, you know, the home invasion, Jen.'Cause there's real reasons for it, but, they might trigger a Poltergeist and

Caroline 48:37

Well and I also speaking of those chicks like I also was like I hope my kid never wants to go in a boat with some drunk dude

Anne 48:45

Yes. Yeah. I mean, as a high schooler, I have been in the car with drunk people not been brave enough to be like, I'm uncomfortable with this. I want out. I hope my children are smarter than I was.

Caroline 48:58

A thousand percent

Anne 48:58

Yeah. I'm not gonna ask you if you would recommend this. Are you gonna keep listening? obviously I love it. What about you?

Caroline 49:05

If you have specific episodes I might listen to them like based on this conversation and what you heard me talk about that got me versus didn't get me if there were other episodes you would recommend I would totally listen to those I don't know that I would choose it on my own because I'm more interested in the the true side of of things

Anne 49:25

It's okay. I guess we can still be friends. Um, as I said, I love it. I love the tropes. I love the idea that the little ghost girl isn't really a ghost girl. I love haunted objects, husbands who don't believe you. Shadow figures, tapping slow possession, Poltergeist sleepwalking deals with the devil, and that's only the

Caroline 49:43

Hmm

Anne 49:43

nine, eight episodes. If you keep listening, you'll come across Cryptids, aliens, preppers, Black-Eyed Children. It's so much fun.

Caroline 49:51

What are Black Eye children

Anne 49:53

You don't wanna know.

Caroline 49:54

Well tell me about the prep episodes because I'm interested in people who are obsessive

Anne 49:58

Okay.

Caroline 49:59

For sure

Anne 50:00

Preps is a great show. I am really drawn to it.

Caroline 50:03

Yes I think time will tell

Anne 50:05

Yeah.

Caroline 50:05

it does seem more and more like they're right

Anne 50:07

Yeah. Do you have a palette cleanser? I don't really need a PAL cleanser. This is a pallet cleanser for me.

Caroline 50:12

I do have a Palette cleanser I have been listening to Amy poellher new podcast and it is Wonderful I am not a person who enjoys celebrities talking like they're more important than other human beings that just are doing their jobs I don't really get the obsession with that But Amy Poer is someone I've always really enjoyed in in a very low key way And her podcast includes a lot of low key chill but funny people that I appreciate Today's episode I listened to was Paul Rudd and they talked for a very long time about the movie What Hot American Summer which is one of my most favorite movies of all time that I quote often that not a lot of people know I'm quoting So highly recommend It is a great listen

Anne 51:00

I know when you quote what Hot American summer. I

Caroline 51:03

I know you do

Anne 51:06

I guess my, nice thing of the week is that I recently showed my kids back to the future I was really hesitant to show them because of the scene where Biff is sexually assaulting Lorraine. And I remember as a kid that really upset me and I didn't really understand what was going on. And I have a daughter who's highly empathetic. I mean, she. She practically burst a blood vessel crying when she found out that Henry VIII had and Belin beheaded when she was doing a research project on Elizabeth. I, so I was concerned about her seeing this. but we actually talked about it and why that's wrong and how horrible that was. So I, I hope that she didn't leave that feeling upset and confused the way I did. And you know, other than that upsetting trigger warning scene, it really is just such a perfect movie and, I really enjoyed re-watching with them,, with them. And I named my dog Marty after Marty McFly, so it's, you know, an important movie in my life.

Caroline 51:56

In mine as well I have it back to the future poster in um our powder room

Anne 52:01

Yeah.

Caroline 52:02

Um it is it was one of my favorite movies of all time I got to sit in a DeLorean that my uncle's dad had and I remember asking where the flux capacitor was when I was little Yeah That's a great that's a great one for sure

Anne 52:16

Okay. you like this, you should read or listen to, the Exorcist, the novel, for Possession. possession story that Liz Sauer recommends is Come Closer by Sara Gran If you're looking for haunted New England movie Vibes, I recommend The Conjuring. If you're looking for another podcast that kind of has a mix of ghost stories and humor, scared to Death is fantastic, and some novels, Jennifer McMahon's, the Invited and the Winter People, cozy Horror also, Simone St. James, the Sundown Motel and The Broken Girls. These are, just books that have that of similar vibe, cozy horror, dark Secrets, ghostly Mysteries without being violent or explicit.

Caroline 53:00

Yeah I only have two ads one is the movie the Ice Storm which is a New England drama that takes a behind the scenes look at some of these wealthy lives some of the conversations we were having made me think of it and then also radio rental which maybe we'll cover at some point I think is a great personal story podcast

Anne 53:22

Absolutely

Caroline 53:23

that this reminded me of Yeah

Anne 53:25

And let's not forget, Tom Hanks the burs.

Caroline 53:27

Mm

Anne 53:28

The burbs. Great. Great movie.

Caroline 53:30

Yeah

Anne 53:31

you wanna tell us what our homework assignment is?

Caroline 53:34

Okay So speaking of New England horrors and this area in general and people telling their stories I wanted us to review Spotlight the movie so that'll be next week about the Boston news exclusive

Anne 53:53

Thank you for listening. Please do all the things podcasters ask you to do. Tell a friend write a review on iTunes. You can email us at Drawn to Darkness pod@gmail.com. And if like Shirley Jackson, you delight in what you fear, join us in two weeks here at Drawn to Darkness. Special thanks to Nancy Ano for our cover art. You can find her on Facebook at Nancy Ano Art and Harry Kid for our intro and outro music. You can find him on Spotify.