Drawn to Darkness

10 - Carrie by Stephen King

• Anne Azano • Episode 10

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Do your friends think you’re weird because you like horror and true crime? Then join us on Drawn to Darkness.

In this episode, we discuss Carrie, Stephen King's infamous debut novel—and the one that almost didn’t make it out of the trash can. That is, until Tabitha King fished it out and told her husband to keep going. Good thing she did. Without Carrie, we might not have had Pennywise, Annie Wilkes, or even Stranger Things.

We unpack the horror and tragedy of Carrie White: a telekinetic teenage girl, bullied by her peers and tormented by her mother, whose one night of hope at prom ends in fire, death, and devastation. In classic Drawn to Darkness fashion, we dig into the literary structure, cultural influence, and why Carrie is as much a horror story as it is a heartbreaking critique of bullying, abuse, and the cost of being "other." Plus, we take a deep dive into the controversial characters of Sue, Tommy, Chris (to quote Leo, “you’re not that great”), and perhaps the worst literary mother of all time, Margaret White. And don’t forget shout-outs to 90210, Shakespeare, Stranger Things, and The Incredibles.

Spoiler + Trigger Warning

This episode discusses, school massacres, domestic abuse and religious trauma, periods and menstrual shaming, animal abuse (pigs and dogs), violence against children, rape and sexual repression, references to real-world school shootings

And yes—there are full plot spoilers for Carrie.

Palate Cleanser

Stormtrooper Vlogs (TikTok): A hilarious, AI-generated POV series from the Star Wars universe. Check out @StormtrooperVlogz 

Recommendations

If you want more telekinetic girls, murderous proms, or religious zealots, here’s where to go next:

  • Carrie - Watch the film adaptations!
  • On Writing by Stephen King – For the origin story of Carrie and King's writing wisdom
  • The Institute, Dr Sleep, and The Shining – More King kids with powers
  • FantasticLand by Mike Bockoven – For another epistolary narrative
  •  Let the Right One In by John Ajvide Lindqvist – Vampires, bullying, and revenge
  • Mary by Nat Cassidy – Carrie, but menopausal.
  • Mean Girls, Pretty in Pink, Napoleon Dynamite, Ever After – Prom movies, with less carnage
  • Stranger Things – 11 is  Carrie if she only had friends
  • The Haunting of Hill House by Shirley Jackson – For raining rocks, ghosts, and trauma
  • Talking Scared Podcast -Neil McRobert’s episode on Carrie.

Homework:

Watch The Act on Hulu for another abusive mother Dee Dee Blanchard, and her eventual murder planned by her daughter Gypsy Rose.

Special thanks to Nancy Azano for providing our cover art. You can find her on Instagram @nancyazano. 

And Harry Kidd for composing and recording our opening score. His instagram is @harryjkidd and you can check him out on Spotify. https://open.spotify.com/artist/43BiFkkOHykD8n9g4z0Qd7

Anne:

welcome back to Drawn to Darkness, a biweekly podcast where we discuss our favorite horror and true crime. you count yourself among Stephen King's constant readers, we're here for you. name is Annie, and I'll be introducing Caroline to my favorite horror movies, podcast, TV shows, and books.

Caroline:

And I am Caroline, and I'll be doing the same from the true crime side of things.

Anne:

So I have a question for you, Carolyn. Would you rather be telekinetic telepathic? have powers of teleportation.

Caroline:

Teleportation.

Anne:

Yeah, same. Why?

Caroline:

The other ones seem like too much pressure, responsibility, stress, anxiety. I have enough of all of those things.

Anne:

Telepathy, definitely like I don't wanna know what anybody thinks about me in their deepest, darkest moments.

Caroline:

No,

Anne:

no more waiting in traffic. No more long flights. that would be

Caroline:

absolutely. I love to travel. I hate to fly. I used to love flying and I've been very phobic of it since I was about 10. but I do love traveling, so that would be amazing. I also hate wasting time, and it feels like you waste so much time getting to the airport

Anne:

So much

Caroline:

and being at the airport and having delays of different kinds and all that.

Anne:

Well, the reason I'm asking you about teleportation and telekinesis is because we are about to talk about Stephen King's first novel Carry. the main character. Telekinetic. She's one of the many Carries and Carolines in my life. I wanted to ask you, Caroline, what is your Stephen King experience Was this your first Stephen King novel? You know, how do you feel about the different movies you may have seen? Things like that.

Caroline:

I did not realize this was his first book, literally until you just said that. I read I think it's the four short stories that like the body is in and Shawshank. and I never finished The Shining. but I started it'cause I was staying at a house that had it in the house. I have seen The Shining. Uh, probably a hundred times a lot. Yeah, it was on TV a lot when I was growing up. And Stand By Me. I had on VHS and loved, loved, loved that movie. I could probably recite it. I've never seen Carrie. I've heard of it and my. My reference to Carrie is from an episode of nine or two, one oh. the spring formal, I think it is, where Brenda and Kelly end up wearing the same dress and then Kelly is like the queen. And Brenda and Dylan have sex for the first time, and Andrea's supposed to go with Brandon and she has these fantasies of, like you said, you liked me, shows up there, which is not a quote in the book. I was kept waiting for that quote to happen in the book, and it doesn't, so I guess it's from the movie.

Anne:

Yeah,

Caroline:

it must be I just remember that so clearly.

Anne:

I rewatched about half an hour of the original carry, the 1976 sissy basic version last night. I'm, I meant to get it done in time, but it just didn't happen. and yeah, I only got through really the part about, you know, where there's all this. Unrealistic steamy, nude froing in the girl's locker room, which don't think anybody acts like that. Anyway. You should watch it at some point.

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

plan on finishing it. my Stephen King journey is a little bit different from yours. I love Stephen King. and as an English teacher amongst certain people, there's an element of shame to that. I'll always remember on one of my first days as a high school teacher, one of my colleagues asked me, who's your favorite writer? And I said, Stephen King. And she replied Somewhat Scathingly. I'm surprised you'd admit that in an English staff room.

Caroline:

What a bitch

Anne:

Right. luckily

Caroline:

what you like.

Anne:

doesn't work there anymore, so I don't think she'll listen to this. In addition to it being just kind of cruel to a first year teacher, I think she's wrong. I think Stephen King is an amazing storyteller and creator of character. Like you mentioned, stand By Me and the shehan Redemption. Like it's not just horror, he's prolific. And he's had such a huge impact on our culture. So I think he's unfairly denigrated as a genre writer by some, and I think horror in general is unfairly denigrated because it can be literary, like the atmospheric settings, the use of language to build tension and dread. and. In the good stuff. There's almost always a deeper metaphor for the true horror lingering beneath the surface, which we often aim to discuss. And you know, I think it's just so much more fun to read than a lot of the other, authors one might claim to be their favorite to show off in an English staff room. So that's one of the reasons I wanted to start this podcast, to defend the literary merits of books like Carrie. Even if they never make the book list for high school English classes, they're like the ones I wish I could teach.

Caroline:

Yeah. And you know, I listened to a podcast, called Unspool, which has been around for a long time, but I only discovered it recently. They're covering the a FI top 100 movies list, from probably several years ago now. There's a lot of discussion there about the, unfair, I think equally unfair treatment of horror movies,

Anne:

Hmm.

Caroline:

And the way that they are kind of frowned upon and not judged quite fairly, I think the only one that comes close to horror that's on that list is Jaws, But other than that, like there really isn't any representation, and I agree that's quite unfair. And also just like, don't yuck, someone's yum. What a mean thing to say, whether you're a new teacher or not.

Anne:

Yeah, don't yuck. Someone's yum. I love that expression.

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

like what they

Caroline:

Right.

Anne:

trigger and spoiler warning, there will be blood, if you're squeamish about periods. can grow up, but a lot of other potentially upsetting content. There's domestic abuse, there's a reference to violence against dogs. There's on-page violence against pigs. trigger warning for horror in general. But you know, ultimately this is about a school massacre, which could be very upsetting if you have any trauma related to school shootings. If so, take care or skip this episode. And as I said, there will be spoilers, so I'll give you a moment to pause. Go read it. Come back. Okay, let's go. 16-year-old Carrie White, shy, bullied, and misunderstood at school and abused by her mother at home discovers she has telekinetic powers when a sadistic prank at the prom pushes her over the edge. she uses her power to take revenge on her Tor mentors. So. That's what carrie's about. I think it's important to talk about the origin story here. We talked about pen pal's origin story in episode one as a creepy pasta, Carrie really has a similarly worthy origin story. Do you know about it?

Caroline:

No.

Anne:

Just over 50 years ago, Tabitha King, Stephen King's wife, fished the initial notes for this novel out of the trash can and read it and told him it was good and you needed to keep going. And so without that fateful moment, king might have abandoned this storyline. I mean, it's a pretty crazy thing to write about. as a 26-year-old man, all these women's perspectives. But how do you not publish this and you know, it to fame? so much about our culture that would be different. Like you already mentioned Sheshan and Stand By Me and The Shining, but there'd be so many icons of horror that we wouldn't have. The stand, Annie Wilkes, Pennywise the Clown. wouldn't have been traumatized by Pet Cemetery or touched by the Shaw tank. Redemption Stand By Me and the Green Mile. So you can read more about it and on writing. But basically, king was inspired by a poor girl in his school who wore the same outfit every day she was made fun of. But then one day she came in with a different outfit and she was so happy, but she was mocked just as mercilessly for trying to step out of that box that her classmates had put her in. And you know, Carrie says at one point she knew that they would push her back down savagely. It was their way. So this was part of what inspired him, having this classmate, the incapability of this sort of bullying. then he was also, at the time, he was working as a high school teacher. He worked, like as a janitor and worked in a laundromat. he was cleaning a girl's locker room and he'd read an article about telekinesis and it all just came together.

Caroline:

That's interesting. I forgot to mention I've also seen it. I've never seen the Green Mile, I think what's interesting to me about that was. even having seen a lot of cultural references to Carrie and being vaguely aware of what it was about, I never knew that there was a whole contingency of people who were feeling sympathetic to her, from the principal to that teacher, the gym coach, to Sue Snell and her boyfriend, all of these people who were kind of coming around to be so kind in a way that to me was very, idealistic, I guess. I can't imagine the people I went to high school having that type of conscience. it seems to me like, oh, he took a situation that, that he witnessed and thought about what could have been if they had changed their behavior and what could have been if she was able to stand up for herself in a fantastical way.

Anne:

Yeah, because we see, you know, her potential, right? Like when she, is at the prom.

Caroline:

Yeah. She has that s murky answer right? To someone. She's like, makes a joke.

Anne:

She, she shows a little bit of personality and

Caroline:

I,

Anne:

like

Caroline:

yeah.

Anne:

hope, right? You see that her personality could shine, she talks about feeling like dusted by the enchantment of the evening. So she feels that sense of hope that she can escape her mother. she says, I wanna be a whole person before it's too late. And that's what makes what ultimately happens, all the more sad. was prom like that for you? Like this magic, Enchanted with dust sort of evening.

Caroline:

Well, Our school was really small. We had junior and senior prom together, and so both grades went to both, My junior year prom was pretty special and I went to it with my current husband, um, and it was at the aquarium and it was all lovely. They really hated our grade. There was a lot of people who did a lot of pranks at the school and on the teachers, and so our senior prom was really awful in some conference room of some hotel. So nothing about it was magical at all. No.

Anne:

I remember having fun,

Caroline:

I remember having fun

Anne:

magical in any way. So it was like a night to look forward to. But I dunno, I, I don't see it as being magical. But it is like a icon of American

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

American high school life. The prom is this big moment, like we have so many movies that build up to that moment, whether it's she's all That or American Pie or Is Isn't Does Mean Girls under the prom too? Yeah, it

Caroline:

Yeah. I don't know if it's the pro, you know, it's a formal

Anne:

a formal, yeah. what adjective would you use to describe this? I.

Caroline:

tragic

Anne:

Hmm.

Caroline:

All of these people who were sympathetic to her and thinking, God, I wish she knew this cause I know what's gonna happen., Aside from being aware of what happens generally through pop culture, there's all the news clippings and the back and forth and stuff like that. So you're aware a tragedy's gonna occur, you're aware she's gonna lose it, and you just wish that she knew all the good intentions that actually were there.

Anne:

Yeah, I would describe it as tense and dread inducing, in addition to tragic, somewhat guiltily satisfying, Seeing what she does, you shouldn't cheer her on at all, but you understand her. I think what you said about, you know, the news reports and the knowledge, the foreknowledge that. Something bad's going down, even if this was the first time you'd read it. you know, the dread comes from that literary technique of telling us the end pretty much from the beginning. of the first lines is nobody was really surprised when it happened. Not really, not at the subconscious level where Savage things grow, and though the specifics of that it not made clear at first. We know something bad is gonna happen from that moment, which. I would like to make a connection to Shakespeare here because know,

Caroline:

Hmm.

Anne:

right?

Caroline:

Yes. Fair Verona.

Anne:

Yes. A pair of Starcrest lovers take their life. And that adds a lot of poignancy to the play because we know these kids are doomed from the beginning, and it's the same here. We know Carrie's doomed and slowly we start to realize that everybody's doomed. The whole senior class, Tommy, you know, the only person Whose perspective we still have is Sue. So, because King just keeps dropping these hints about how bad

Caroline:

Yeah. Yeah. Can I ask you a question? if you were Sue Snell, what would you do with your life after?

Anne:

I, I would like to think I'd become like an anti-bullying crusader, like go and do talks at schools about the horrific impact of bullying.

Caroline:

Mm.

Anne:

Something like

Caroline:

That's very, that's way more, I feel like I would change my name and disappear. I was just like, I mean, I, I felt so much for her. her autobiography or whatever it is that we're hearing her quotes from, I was sort of like, this is even before like social media where everyone could track you down. I mean, now I think I would have no choice but to become a crusader of some kind because people would find me. But back then. If I could disappear, I probably would disappear. I know that's not the noble thing, but I probably couldn't take, being such a public person in such a tragic incident, especially because she did have good intentions and there's no way to prove it because the only person who knows that is dead.

Anne:

Yeah, some people think she was part of the prank.

Caroline:

For sure, and why wouldn't you? She was friends with that awful girl, Chris,

Anne:

Chris? Yes. let's talk about

Caroline:

let's,

Anne:

you know, she's kind of the every woman, the person who has participated in cruelty, despite knowing it's wrong. And I think most people have been there at one point or another, whether it's, to someone's face or behind their backs.

Caroline:

mm-hmm.

Anne:

feels a mixture of hate, revulsion, exasperation, and pity for Carrie. you know, she also deeply regrets her actions and, and she tries to atone for them. So we've got that theme of atonement again, like we talked about in the midnight mass episode with Riley and Joe Cauley and the Spotlight Reporters, and perhaps even Soer and Frank from Heaven's Gates. We've got this ongoing theme of atonement we can keep coming back to. So do you think Sue was right to set Tommy up with Carrie? Was that an act of kindness or a cop out?

Caroline:

I don't know that I would call it a cop out, but I think it was a quite dangerous act of kindness because. If I were Carrie, I would've also assumed it was a joke, and as soon as something goes wrong, I would be like, I knew it was a joke, so I think it, it does fall under the kind of too little, too late category, I guess, in my mind. it would've been better for her to just say, sorry, but that doesn't do much for Carrie either. So I understand her wanting Carrie to have a great night. I understand her, her thought was that this girl would benefit more from like a real opportunity to be a teenager. Then just to hear, I'm sorry, from me, you know.

Anne:

I thought Sue's motivation was a tad, I guess sanctimonious, like making this grand gesture of dropping outta prom and her hot prom king boyfriend up on a platter to atone, you know, instead of just going to say sorry, and maybe sitting with her at lunch and being nice to her

Caroline:

Yeah. Going to be with her herself would've been better. I didn't totally get the sanctimonious thing, only because it didn't seem like she was grandstanding about it. I mean, I guess it's noticeable from the people who are there and know that they're dating. but she was just kind of sitting at home and it didn't seem like she was telling everyone, this is what I'm gonna do, you know?

Anne:

Yeah, I mean she, I think even she is aware of it. You know, she there's a jewel of selfishness winking at her from her subconscious, but she doesn't want to think too deeply of it, so she knows there's something not quite right about what

Caroline:

Right.

Anne:

Carrie, but I think overall, Sue, you know, she wants to be a good person, but she's a teenage girl, right? She's

Caroline:

Right.

Anne:

brave enough or aware enough of the impact of her actions, which I think is pretty realistic. know, it's easier to just make a grand self-sacrificing public gesture than to just be nice to Carrie, because stepping outta line in that hierarchy of school is probably harder, right? you're a

Caroline:

Yeah. She is like not nice to Chris at that one point, and so I felt like that was good. She, she steps on a line in a way, but I do, I agree. Like she's a teenager. I don't think she really understands. But speaking of realistic teenagers, I, my number one thing that I starred was like. The description of her having sex with her high school boyfriend, Tommy, right,

Anne:

Yep.

Caroline:

is the most realistic description of like, first time in early sex I've ever read or heard or seen, like

Anne:

it, Steven?

Caroline:

I, I just like, oh my God, that's, that is what it's really like, like why did nobody tell me that? I wouldn't have made such a big deal outta it,

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

you know?

Anne:

Tabitha must have helped, I think, with

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

'cause Yeah, it's surprisingly really insightful.

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

yeah, Tommy, He reminded me of Jeff in Yellow Jackets. Do you

Caroline:

Oh, well, I haven't watched enough of that.

Anne:

Oh yes, you have. He's in like

Caroline:

Like the fir,

Anne:

He's like

Caroline:

is that the boyfriend of the, of the other girl, but he sleeps with the girl. The best friend. Yeah.

Anne:

Yeah. Like the cool high school guy who's

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

aims for mediocrity in adulthood.

Caroline:

Hmm.

Anne:

But like a nice guy overall, you know, like Tommy is, is kind, right? He tells Carrie she's beautiful and he means it. And perhaps he's starting to like Carrie, right? Like, uh, it's a little ambiguous.

Caroline:

Mm-hmm. It is, it does seem like he loves Sue.

Anne:

yes. So Sue reminds me of Nancy from Stranger Things, or it should probably be that Nancy from Stranger Things reminds me of Sue. you know, the Duffer brothers are very public king. King fans. Carrie and 11 obviously have a lot in common, but I wonder if, if Nancy was inspired by Sue as well. Like Nancy sees her mother's life and is disgusted by it. Like she doesn't wanna be a housewife. She dreads that and that's what Sue is. Starting to think about when she's having sex or when maybe she's just finished having sex with Tommy. I can't remember. She thinks about whether or not she'll just end up another housewife in the suburbs and she's terrified of conforming. She imagines long afternoons ironing and watching soap operas with her hair and rollers joining the PTA, and she connects that dread of conforming to that moment when she joined the other girls, like she conformed by torturing Carrie in the plug it up scene. by opting out a prom, she's not conforming. She's just, herself out of that picture, whether she would've ended up marrying Tommy and having that life and being okay with it or not, I don't know, but

Caroline:

Hmm.

Anne:

get the chance. Poor Tommy.

Caroline:

I know. Poor Tommy. So question, did the bucket kill him or did she kill him after? Because it wasn't totally clear. It was clear. The bucket knocked him out, but I wasn't sure if it like literally killed him or if she killed him first in her rage.

Anne:

I think he dies because of her rage. Like I think he just, gets burned up with everybody else. But I think they do say that Tommy died quickly, like he didn't feel anything.

Caroline:

Yeah, I just, I, I guess it just wasn't crystal super clear which thing killed him it's so interesting. All of these different, like going back and describing that moment. Happens kind of a couple times and the description of it lasts so long, even though, you know, the moment is like 30 seconds, and so I think because there's so many things happening in such a short period of time, I wasn't a hundred percent sure whether he got knocked out and then he was the first victim of her rage

Anne:

Now

Caroline:

whatever telekinetic way she could have done that. I don't know.

Anne:

I feel like she knew he was okay. so we've talked a little bit about Tommy, who's basically a nice guy. Let's talk about Billy. Tommy's foil is Billy. What did you think of him?

Caroline:

Well, he reminds me of Billy from Stranger Things.

Anne:

Yeah, well, it's gotta be

Caroline:

I know, right.

Anne:

right. They must have been in,

Caroline:

Steve.

Anne:

I don't think we get to know Tommy well enough to make a Steve comparison, but yeah, I guess, yeah.

Caroline:

Well, no. Then it doesn't make sense because did you know that was not supposed to become a good guy? That he just was so likable and charming on set that they like changed the character for the actor?

Anne:

I'm so happy they did that. He's so, I love Steve.

Caroline:

I know.

Anne:

Yes. I mean maybe I, again, if we're saying that 11 is Carrie and Billy is Billy and Sue is Nancy, then Steve is Tommy, right?

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

So I know you have watched Stand By Me. We've got Ace from Stand By Me. He's in good company with or bad company with a lot of Stephen King bullies, right? Ace from Stand By Me. have you seen it?

Caroline:

Yes.

Anne:

Henry Bowers from it. Stephen King has a lot of bullies who take it way too far. Like they're scary, they're sociopathic. I mean, they talk about Billy going out cruising for stray dogs and then coming back with his car. Bloody.

Caroline:

yeah, I, I will say one thing that I appreciate about both horror and Disney movies and stuff like that in this modern era is that there's a lot more that people contain multitudes and usually hurt people. Hurt people. And if you're a bad guy, it's for a reason and you're not just a sociopath for no reason. And now of course there are sociopaths for no reason. One of them is president of the United States right now. but, but the, like Chris and Billy Couple, I was sort of like This is the only element of the story that feels dated to me you don't really have these one dimensional villains anymore storytelling, I guess.

Anne:

I think it's acknowledged that Billy's family is abusive. Like there is just this line about what his home life is like. So it's touched on, but yeah, it's not developed in any way.

Caroline:

Yeah. And because like, river Phoenix's character in Stand By Me, you can tell like he lashes out like he, he has a rep, his family has a rep, and there's, there's all this complexity to it.

Anne:

but deep down he's a good boy.

Caroline:

Such a good boy.

Anne:

Yeah. ugh. But Billy is not a good boy. I mean, he kills the pigs. I, I can't remember whose idea was the pig thing. Was that his idea? I feel like Chris was not come up with that.

Caroline:

there's all this conjecture about whose idea it was and how much she actually knew,

Anne:

I mean, she was there for the slitting of the pig's throats. But yeah, I definitely get the impression that although maybe it starts out with her controlling him, by the end he's the one in control. He's the one telling her she has to jerk on the rope to bring the buckets down. And you can kind of tell she's, I think, wanting to back out like it's going too far for her. But let's talk about Chris. She's like Regina George, but up the viciousness to the power of 10, right? Like she's horrendous.

Caroline:

Yeah. The, the bullies that I grew up with were much more Regina George

Anne:

she's so well, like Virginia George, she's privileged, she's entitled. There's a line that reminds me so much of Draco Malfoy, she says. At one point, people did not speak to her that way. Her father was a lawyer. It was very, my, my father will hear of this.

Caroline:

father with you about this.

Anne:

Yes.

Caroline:

Yes, of course. It also reminded me of Heather's'cause it was much more like less Regina George. More Heather

Anne:

which one?

Caroline:

the

Anne:

Okay.

Caroline:

yeah, the main Heather, the blonde one.

Anne:

It's always the blonde one.

Caroline:

who's, who says corn nuts she crashes through the table. Yeah, she gets pleasure in the pain of people who are already in pain

Anne:

Yes, as a power thing too. She enjoys the power of punching down, like her father punches down. Have you seen Adam Sandler's movie, Leo, about the lizard?

Caroline:

Oh many

Anne:

It's so good, right? I love it. do you remember the song he sings? you're not that great.

Caroline:

she's not that great.

Anne:

Chris needs somebody to sing her that song. You're not that great Chris. Um,

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

and, also the father is the same. Like he's a powerful, successful lawyer yeah, and I think that's why she is the way she is. By the way. Hats off to the principal. Standing applause, standing ovation for not giving into that lawyer dad. That made me so happy

Caroline:

I know also unrealistic,

Anne:

also. Oh, absolutely unrealistic. But I was like, yes.

Caroline:

but very great. I will say though, this lawyer is an asshole, but you can't beat a child you cannot be physical with children in school.

Anne:

Yes. Miss De Joden. Um, um, you know, she's, she's like shaking people, slapping people. She's outta control.

Caroline:

This, yeah, I definitely wrote with this teacher's behavior is insane.

Anne:

Yeah. Oh, in the movie, she's discussing Carrie with the principal and she's just like walking around smoking a cigarette and I'm just like, oh my goodness, this is so dated.

Caroline:

So my brother is eight years older than me, but I remember visiting the high school when I was in elementary school with him, there was a smoking lounge still

Anne:

Oh my God. For the teachers or the high school kids

Caroline:

for the

Anne:

okay. Yeah,

Caroline:

the

Anne:

in the school. I always remember my biology teacher's papers when they'd come back to us, smelled like cigar smoke. We'd always joke about like she was like sitting there marking papers and smoking a cigar. yeah, I think the stage artan is interesting because she admits that she's kind of repulsed by Carrie too. she admits that she feels pleasure when she slaps Carrie. she's probably a cool girl, right? Like, well she was cool when she grew up. She was probably higher up on the hierarchy than someone like Carrie. And she hasn't quite shed that even though she's an adult and she, mostly does the right thing, she holds the bullies accountable. She's kind to Carrie at the prom. She tries to help when Carrie's running away. But yeah, she can still feel that inner disgust for Carrie. I thought that was interesting.

Caroline:

confused by her. To be honest. I actually didn't register that she had been popular or cool. I was confused by her repulsion and I wasn't sure if it was like, you know, sometimes I get, I. Quite angry with my children when they behave in ways that I know they got from me. And it's a thing I don't like about myself, so I wondered if any of that was going on,

Anne:

I think she just didn't understand how could Carrie not know, right? why is she behaving like this? Like she's behaving in this crazy way that is inviting this mob of girls to torture her. It's like she's not helping herself at all, and I think she is angry at her for that.

Caroline:

I have a child who I do get frustrated when they don't help themselves. When I'm like, you just make the situation better, not worse, you know, It doesn't have to be as bad as it is, and then they kind of take it in the wrong direction. It is quite frustrating to witness,

Anne:

Well, speaking of things like the slapping right, which, should not happen in a school at any time in history, but, would definitely not happen now without serious consequences. so let's talk about, setting. King loves his main settings. Kerry's the only one he sets in Chamberlain. But, you know, future novels are set in Salem's Law and Dairy and Castle Rock. I wanna point out the three basic settings here. We've got the school, the home, and the town itself. And none of them are safe places for Carrie. And she ultimately takes out her revenge on all three. her home is full of such violent biblical imagery, like Christ's wounds and drowning sinners and the burning of Sodom and Gomorrah, and obviously the crucifixion, which Carrie talks about giving her nightmares. So I think it's so. Sad that this tortured girl isn't even safe when she goes home.

Caroline:

Yeah, it's horrible. I kind of wish I knew more about her mother's back. because her mother is clearly totally insane. and I, I guess I wish I had a little bit more insight as to why, and I'm not sure I totally understood what happened with the dad. Like at first I sort of assumed the mother killed the dad through telekinesis. But then it seemed later like, no, she doesn't have telekinesis. So don't know how the dad died.

Anne:

there's definitely the implication of, of marital rape, right?

Caroline:

Yes,

Anne:

but I think she's, she's crazy before that happens,

Caroline:

Yes, never to victim blame, but it seems that the husband would have justified the rape because of the craziness before that. Not that I'm justifying it, it seems like he felt like he was entitled to take what he felt was due him.

Anne:

yeah, I think she's clearly damaged before she's married, before she has Carrie, because she's so afraid of and ashamed of sex, so something happens to her, right. That's not normal. but we don't get Margaret White's life before. That moment, that's the farthest back we go in time for her. But something must have messed her up because this is not just normal evangelical beliefs. Right. well let's talk a little bit more in depth about Margaret White. she's a real piece of work. Showers aren't allowed. Pillows aren't allowed. Those are sinful. Don't be comfortable. She makes,

Caroline:

dirty pillows. Don't make those

Anne:

yes, she makes Carrie sit through two to three hour sermons. She's terrified of sex and she shames Carrie for basic human development. and when she's pregnant, she thinks she has cancer. Like so. She was just as sheltered as Carrie to not understand what was happening to her.

Caroline:

Yeah, it was crazy. I'm having visions. I was in Costco when I was listening to this portion of the book where she's in labor and stuff like that, and she, and there's a storm, wasn't there a storm when she was in labor

Anne:

don't remember.

Caroline:

or something like that? And like neighbors were checking. Anyway, I can like see the aisles that I was in, in my mind when I'm thinking about this,

Anne:

happens to me with podcasts and audio.

Caroline:

Yeah, where I'm just like, I'm looking for child, child Tylenol and I can't find it. And I'm listening to this and I'm like, what on earth? This woman doesn't know she's having a baby. And then she just like has the baby and the baby's there. did, she cut the B, she cut the cord with the same knife she killed her with.

Anne:

Maybe. I don't know. I didn't make that connection, but

Caroline:

she might've,

Anne:

That sounds very possible. I mean, she's, she's nuts, right? in addition to the pillows, shower and decor, she gouges her face. But pillows, showers, questionable decor, face gouging, and long sermons are kind of the least of Margaret White's problems. She's abusive. You know, she punishes Carrie by locking her in a closet without food or water, or a place to relieve herself. And, you know, she tries to kill her on multiple occasions. she almost murders her when she was a child, simply because Carrie saw the neighbors sunbathing. And again, at the end of the novel, she stabs her. like Bev Keen, she's a sermon spout. Her thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. She calls her daughter Jezebel Devil's child. Satan Spawn,

Caroline:

I really can't reconcile personally, again, as a non-religious person currently. you know, we've, we've recently had someone murder two people and shoot two others, with a list of 70 something other people that they were going to kill all for the sake of, preventing abortions. I just don't understand, isn't isn't the first commandment thou shalt not kill, isn't that, is that not number one.

Anne:

Yeah. Once again, absolutely cherry picking which things we believe in.

Caroline:

pick, like number one should be number one. And you

Anne:

Yes.

Caroline:

get excused from number one because you're trying to prevent someone else from doing what you think is number one. Which by the way, the Bible mentions, life starts at the first breath, breath, which happens outside the body. anyway,

Anne:

Yeah, thou shalt not kill is probably, as you said, the most important one. And yeah, absolutely insane. Well, using scripture to justify terrible things, I thought it was interesting that Margaret White said, if thine right eye offend the pluck it out, which Marshall Applewhite also uses. We discussed this in our Heaven's Gate episode, to talk about, castration. Uh, she thinks about Abraham being willing to sacrifice Isaac to justify murdering her daughter. And she really distorts scripture. Like there was one quote, I wrote it down because I was like, is this real? This doesn't feel real. and again, as real as any scripture can be, we talked about the smash mouth translation an episode or two ago, like, how real is any of this? It's just something somebody wrote that we've decided matters. so Margaret White says. Eve was weak and loosed the raven on the world. And the raven was called sin and the first sin was intercourse. And the Lord visited eve with a curse, and the curse was the curse of blood. And so I looked that up and it's not like it was written for this novel as far as I can tell. so she is kind of taking scripture and then distorting it to fit her worldview, which doesn't make any sense.

Caroline:

Yeah. Or potentially, because we don't know a lot about her history, potentially the view that was delivered to her.

Anne:

Yes.

Caroline:

maybe she is spouting off teachings she had from someone, who for whatever reason was telling her intercourse is sin. Which, how could it be sin if that's the only way you create life?

Anne:

It's actually very different from a lot of Christian evangelical, pro baby views, right?

Caroline:

Right. Have as many kids as you can.

Anne:

Yeah. So you mentioned that, and I've mentioned as well, that most likely Margaret White came from a traumatized background to have these views, she didn't get this in a vacuum, right? So where does our empathy turn off? Do we have any empathy for Margaret White? Like, I think we have empathy for Carrie because we're seeing her abuse. What about her mom?

Caroline:

I think in general it's quite hard to have empathy for full adults in comparison to children around them. and I think also, you know, Sue, we have the benefit of hearing her remorse. I don't hear remorse from her mom. I don't hear remorse from Chris. I don't hear remorse from Bill. You know, you're not, you're never hearing those people feel bad. I mean, I don't know, actually, I'm sort of second guessing myself because I, I, do have pity for her because she seems so insane.

Anne:

Right? Like, when does empathy turn off? If we can have empathy for a child who was abused and then goes on to harm others, why don't we have empathy for an adult who was abused as a child? they're just as messed up. The trauma doesn't go away just because you turn 18 and have a kid. I was thinking about that with that Surviving St. Michael's podcast I listened to a while ago about the father who was horrifically abused in the residential schools and then went on to be, a violent man himself. And it's like, he, it, it explains it, right? cause as we know, trauma changes the brain, I dunno, it's just an interesting thing to think about.

Caroline:

And certainly, know, I felt empathy for her being raped by her husband. That's not something that should happen to anyone.

Anne:

No, I think the deep horror with Margaret White is abusing her daughter, which is a part of a lot of king novels. interestingly enough, I think Stephen King says he had a pretty happy childhood, but he depicts a lot of, horribly abusive parents. Like, in it, Bev is sexually threatened by her father. Eddie's mother is munchhouse by proxy adjacent, at least other kids are, you know, every parent has an issue. Right. And there's Jack Torrance in The Shining. He breaks his son's arm.

Caroline:

me.

Anne:

Stand by me. Yes. I don't know. Margaret White might be the worst of them, right? She's pretty awful. And I just think it's so sad to grow up, hated by your mother, the one person who's really supposed to love you. It's just so tragic and sad. And despite all that, Carrie still loves her. Like she cries out for her. She wants her mother in her dying moments. It's heartbreaking.

Caroline:

That was really upsetting at the end. I saw the end of One of those like CSI ones where it's mind hunter esque crime show. there was a a guy who kidnapped one of the people on the team that was hunting him down on the police force And she was saying something threatening him like, you're gonna regret this or something, you're gonna get caught. And he was like, that may be, but when it's the end, you're still gonna cry for your mama, just like they all do.

Anne:

Ugh.

Caroline:

know I have thought of that moment, 1,000,001 times, like since

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

that, I don't even remember what show it was from, but I just saw that guy say that thing. And I've thought about it, especially because my mother has passed and I've been like. Would, I still do that? Like, you know, like is that a weird, I'm so glad to have this platform of weirdos to ask because I want, I've wanted to ask that question to people so many times. I'm curious, do you think that you would still do that if you know your mom is gone

Anne:

Yeah. Is there some like evolutionary response deep down to want that person. In the most dire times, regardless of who they are or where they are, whether they're even still alive.

Caroline:

they can help you? Yeah,

Anne:

I feel like I've seen that too, that you'll still cry. Like I don't know what that's from, but I

Caroline:

Listeners If anyone's out there and they saw

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

let us know what it's from.

Anne:

I think the way Carrie's death is telepathically shared with Sue was interesting that she's able to share that mix of sadness and fear and rejection and that realization that her life was one long, dirty trick. I think it's such a sad death compared to midnight mass where they talk about that final release of chemicals and endorphins. And despite the horrible way these characters may be dying, they find beauty in their last moments and Carrie does not.

Caroline:

As, as long as she's conscious for, I guess.

Anne:

Yeah,

Caroline:

potentially she does experience something after that that she can't convey.

Anne:

true.

Caroline:

don't know.

Anne:

well, we've talked about most of the main characters except Carrie. We haven't actually really spoken about her. I think Carrie was not born a monster, I've recently reread Frankenstein, which is a bit of a slog. Pretty boring at times. But I think there's a lot of parallels here. Like the world made Frankenstein's monster into a monster by treating him like a pariah rejection. And they did the same to Kerry. So the horrible acts that Kerry and Frankenstein's monster go on to commit are the reactions to grave injustices and cruelty. So we sympathize with them. It's not okay that they did it. It's not okay for Carrie to kill everyone in her high school class, but we can kind of understand And in that understanding, is there a part of you that cheers her on.

Caroline:

No, I didn't have any cheering her on, I kept wanting to be like, but wait, no, this wasn't a trip. You know, like I. I kept wanting to be like, no, no, no. It was just that bitch. That bitch and her boyfriend. Everyone else actually okay or just like dealing with it, you

Anne:

Having a weird psychological response. laughing when you're uncomfortable. Most, most of them.

Caroline:

I laugh when I'm uncomfortable. It's horrible. I have laughed in very inappropriate things that I am upset about, but it's a nervous response for some people

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

help.

Anne:

except for that person who trips her as she's running away.

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

that moment that somebody could look at this, crying, running, blood soaked victim of this prank and think I'm gonna trip her. That, that had me maybe a little bit complicit in the mob, the banging mob, right? I get it, I get why she turns around. It's not right and I would never, wanna be defending school shooters or anything like that. but you know, because we are seeing her perspective, I think, in a way, maybe Stephen King, by writing her perspective, makes us complicit. Like we are the girls in the locker room throwing the sanitary pads and everything because we sympathize with her. We comply. I dunno, is that a bit meta?

Caroline:

I guess I was so hyper-focused on what Carrie wasn't aware of. I was distracted by it so much that I wasn't even really thinking about these other shitty things people did. I also think at the same time, like, I've been in situations where people are like, shitty on road rage or something like that, and I laugh at them cause I'm like, wow, it must suck to be you. You know? Like if you feel the need to be this shitty, feel bad for you. already felt bad for Carrie. I, I guess I didn't even register. I mean, I re registered that the trip happened. I just didn't even think about the person who did it because there's so nothing. And in a way, being nothing is

Anne:

Mm-hmm.

Caroline:

You don't even matter. don't even think about you. You know, like that Mad Men thing,

Anne:

Oh,

Caroline:

in the elevator.

Anne:

I, I don't know Mad men that, well, I believe you.

Caroline:

There's a meme where he is like, says, oh God, I wish I remember what

Anne:

Oh, but what about,

Caroline:

but he's like, I,

Anne:

and or in the Gorman, who are you like that?

Caroline:

right. Exactly. Yeah. Where it's just like, there is no more crushing feeling than being nobody

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

to a person that you really put a lot into, I looked it up. It's, I feel bad for you, is what the guy says. The younger guy, and then Don Draper says, I don't think about you at all.

Anne:

Oh, snap.

Caroline:

What's worse,

Anne:

Carrie at the end reminds me of, uh, Ceci. Lannister. I choose violence,

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

make a decision. Carrie was, damaged. you know, when Tommy asks her to prom, Stephen King writes that she looks up from her books with a startled wince as if expecting a blow. it's like she's an abused dog, right? so she was made into this monster, but then she does make that decision. This is not a 100% heat of the moment lashback. Right? she could have walked away, but she turns around and she takes it out on everybody, both guilty and innocent alike.

Caroline:

Right. that really, I just can't, I can't get behind.

Anne:

I can see getting the guy who tripped her, I guess if you push people too far though, there will be collateral damage, right? I mean, we, I just mentioned and or like, and or is really about, how does somebody become radicalized, right? How does somebody join the rebellion? It's because of horrific experiences that drive them to it. And again, Carrie is arguably a paranormal school shooter, right? She. Kills guilty and innocent alike, but she was driven to it. And again, how culpable can a 16-year-old be like, we know their brains are not developed. She's a teenager. She's lashing out. Like many of us would lash out in a horrifically traumatic situation. She just happens to be a ton more powerful. Like I think of the baby and Incredibles too. Remember the baby,

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

he can't control his powers, so he acts on his impulses like he turns into a fire demon when he doesn't get a cookie. what bullied kid wouldn't do? What little they could if they had the power to fight back. And Carrie just has too much power in an undeveloped brain, in a horrible, sadistic moment, and she makes that terrible decision.

Caroline:

school shootings so horrific, I don't think we'll ever cover one on this.

Anne:

Agree.

Caroline:

as, as a, I don't plan to ever. So, I, I think we can say we're not gonna discuss them, but as close as it is to that, she devastates an entire town kind of forever.

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

the factory goes outta business. Nobody wants to live there. it's way beyond. The scope of her bullying, I

Anne:

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. she's enjoying herself by the end to, to some extent. She's kind of delighting in the carnage. She's giggling as she electrocutes people. I, I really like the way Kane keeps repeating flex, as she's flexing her powers and, she really takes it up a notch when she takes out the fire hydrants, she didn't plan this, but once she gets going, she is pretty conniving.

Caroline:

Yeah. It's horrible.

Anne:

In on writing Stephen King, which he wrote, I think a couple decades after he wrote this, he compares her to Dylan Kalt Kalt and Eric Harris of Columbine. Do you think that's fair?

Caroline:

sure. Yeah.

Anne:

Yeah. there,

Caroline:

think it's fair to compare her to school shooters.

Anne:

yeah, I do think the time passed in between the bullying and the vengeance matters. it's not a hundred percent heat at the moment. She makes this decision, but it's pretty quick. Whereas Columbine, I think they planned it for like a year or something before they actually took action.

Caroline:

yeah, they did. and legally, there's a difference between manslaughter inverter, right? And that is forethought and planning but it's still feels like splitting hairs a little bit because I think there's so many people, you're traumatizing beyond the people just in the room, to pay for what you've been through, and they're not really responsible And a very important quote that I think about a lot is, and I'm, I'm sure that she was quoting somebody else, but, a podcaster named Amanda from a podcast called Wine and Crime,

Anne:

Okay.

Caroline:

who you will hear me recommend again. She often mentions that, your mental health issues, your addiction, et cetera, your trauma, it's not your fault, but it is your responsibility. is not your fault what happened to you, but. It is your responsibility to deal with it in a way that isn't damaging other people and isn't paying it forward retaliation is never gonna be the right way to deal with it.

Anne:

Which goes back to what we were talking about with Margaret White, and whether or not we should have empathy for her, it is her responsibility to not harm her daughter. And yes, hurt people, hurt people. people who were abused as children may be more likely to abuse their own children, but there's plenty of people who don't do that, right? This is not an inevitability. there are plenty of abused people who go on to. Put good into the world rather than harm. Right. it doesn't have to be like that.

Caroline:

Absolutely. Can I say something about the setting

Anne:

Yes.

Caroline:

because

Anne:

I splice it back in.

Caroline:

moment. where I think Sue mentions a country club membership once you get a five figure salary. And I found that mind blowing that a five figure

Anne:

Oh

Caroline:

be enough to give you a country club membership.

Anne:

yeah.

Caroline:

was really like, wow. But then I went to time money converter and if you had a$10,000 salary back in 1974, that would be$65,206 today and a salary would be 195,618 today. I still don't think either of those as a household income is enough for a country club. Um,

Anne:

I don't think so. I think in on writing, Stephen King's talks about, earning about somewhere in the$6,000 range a year as a teacher at that time.

Caroline:

Oh my

Anne:

And he was living in a trailer. they didn't have a phone, he couldn't afford medicine for his kids as a teacher.

Caroline:

Well that's relatable

Anne:

And guess what happened?

Caroline:

Sorry.

Anne:

I would like to do the, calculations on, he got a$400,000, paperback deal for this book. What's that in today's money? I mean, I think he only got half of it right? Because you know of all the other people who take a cut.

Caroline:

Well, if 30,000 is like 200 grand, that, that's a lot.

Anne:

that's a lot. I'm not gonna do the maths'cause that is not something I'm good at. But um, yeah, and

Caroline:

No.

Anne:

about how his wife called him and he was so nervous because he knows if he was getting a phone call at work, his wife had to go to somebody else's house to call. Because they didn't have a phone. That's how poor they were.

Caroline:

Mm

Anne:

what a success story. I love it.

Caroline:

oh and so glad he didn't turn into a horrible person like JK Brawling, who was also really poor

Anne:

He's a good person. He

Caroline:

a

Anne:

is really anti-Trump. Yeah. I mean, he's, he's a boomer. He makes his mistakes. Right. But overall, he's doing, doing the right thing.

Caroline:

Can I ask you another

Anne:

yes.

Caroline:

Your prom king and queen, were they the popular people?

Anne:

yeah, I think so. I'm trying to remember who they were. Yeah. They were popular and nice.

Caroline:

Ours were always like. the very nice people. They were not part of the popular crew. everyone got along with them. They were nice to everyone. but nobody had any issue with them. And actually my senior prom, king and queen are both gay now, but they

Anne:

There

Caroline:

in high school.

Anne:

you go. okay. Scariest part or most disturbing part. What do you think? I.

Caroline:

I mean, just when I think about all those kids, like burning and that, that, that is awful.

Anne:

Yeah. Being trapped in a crowded space and not able to escape. We talked about that in previous episodes with midnight mass. The way the doors slam shut and then there's a stampede. That's, that's horrifying. It makes me want to not leave the house.

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

I, I, I would have trouble going to like concerts and stuff now for that reason.

Caroline:

I, I have issue as you know, I don't think the listeners know,

Anne:

Oh, you talked about it last week?

Caroline:

crowds. I, I do not like crowded environments. It's too chaotic. So

Anne:

I'm much more comfortable these days at home with a puzzle and a movie I've already watched. Uh, for me, I think. The plug it up scene is so cruel. It's, it's not scary, but it's disturbing. in general, I think I find the cruelty of the bullying the most disturbing thing in this. as I said, the moment that somebody actually trips her, she's running away from prom. I found that really horrific. another horrible moment for me is Carrie killing her mother, the way she stop her mother's heart using her telekinesis. I thought that was a really scary way to kill somebody.

Caroline:

That might've been the only part I was rooting for her.

Anne:

Okay. So you were

Caroline:

It was very,

Anne:

on Carrie's side a little bit.

Caroline:

yeah, I, I mean for that'cause it was her mother's fault. It wasn't those kids' fault. Those kids, partly their fault is their underdevelopment brain. Partly it's crowd, you know, hive mentality and all that stuff. But yeah, I was rooting for her when she killed her mom.

Anne:

Yeah. have you ever seen Avatar the last Airbender.

Caroline:

No.

Anne:

Oh, you should watch that. You'll love it. there's characters who can blood bend so they can control liquid, so they can control the liquid in people's bodies and use it to,

Caroline:

that's not the first avatar movie.

Anne:

I'm not talking about the movie, Blue People movie. Not that avatar. The last Airbender. It's a cartoon. You have to watch it. it's really good. Anyway, it reminded you of a blood bending an avatar and is it the Imperious Curse in Harry Potter

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

yeah. And Vader. Yeah. But Vader doesn't go inside, right. Vader's just strangling.

Caroline:

he chokes. my husband wants to quote, from Rogue One. Be careful not to choke on your aspirations critic.

Anne:

Oh, yes. I love that line.

Caroline:

that.

Anne:

Yes. Good one. My new favorite line from a Star Wars related, uh, media is calibrate your enthusiasm from and, or it's similar vibe to that line.

Caroline:

And or is the best

Anne:

It's the best. all right. I know obviously there's the iconic imagery of Carrie, just covered in red and only the whites of her eyes showing, and then that raw, hysterical laughter that she hears. It's so iconic and I think it's just a part of our cultural literacy. Like you said, you know, you really didn't have much interaction with this except for 9 0 2 1 oh, but even so, like you went into this with that blood soaked imagery of Carrie at the prom in your head,

Caroline:

yes. And I also thought of scream when he's like corn syrup thing. Same thing they use

Anne:

Yeah,

Caroline:

and carry. I.

Anne:

I was thinking about just like what it would've been like to read this without knowing, where things would've been a bit of a twist, right? I think I might have mentioned, I've been very, very slowly rereading Dracula and you know, when Dracula is first introduced, my immediate reaction is dread, Because I know that name, but there was a time when the first people reading this would've had no preexisting associations with that name and would've just been like, eh, this guy's kinda creepy. But they wouldn't have known what was to come. And I always just think, wouldn't it be interesting to be able to read these iconic things for the first time without that foreknowledge? let's see. what about criticism? do you have any criticism?

Caroline:

I think that The, spirit and intention of the period scene was accurate. I can't imagine and experienced all sorts of horrific girl bullying I think that because periods are things that all girls experience and it's embarrassing for all of us, I, sorry, I should say biological women, that I can't imagine a lot of people getting behind, teasing someone else about and so it wasn't that the topic was like icky to me it was that, that like, I just think. At that age, so many people who are that age and are experiencing the same thing are embarrassed enough that they wouldn't wanna, like, call it out tremendously in that way. I thought every other aspect of that scene was real, but what it was about was maybe not super to me. the only other thing, I really didn't think Tommy was super believable as a, a boy that exists,

Anne:

Yeah. Mr. Perfect.

Caroline:

a teenage boy that exists.

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

Like he was so well-rounded and so kind and so perfect and so and willing to go on a date with the dorky girl whatever he ended up feeling about her later. I just don't think that boy exists. That isn't scripted.

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

Yeah,

Anne:

think of anyone who would've been the, the Tommy of my school. No. No way.

Caroline:

like Brandon Walsh, he's also scripted,

Anne:

scripted. There's nobody like Brandon Walsh. Come on.

Caroline:

No,

Anne:

just going back to what you said before, why are we so disgusted by menstrual blood as a society? Is it the, everyone hates Women Barbie speech? Like, why, why would those girls take care down for something that they've all gone through? And I think Ms. De Den says maybe there's some kind of instinct about menstruation that makes women want to snarl. And I thought that was interesting.

Caroline:

Yeah. And maybe I, I have too much sense of like, I wouldn't want that to happen to me, you know? Like I wouldn't want someone to call out when I'm on my period. So would never do that.

Anne:

Well, you are a highly empathetic person.

Caroline:

I would never do, a lot of these things. So I don't know. part of me thinks yes, I mean, I told my fifth grader who just graduated fifth grade, had a health class where they talked about bodies and stuff like that. and I mentioned something about periods to him after knowing that he had been through that class and he didn't know anything about it.'cause I guess he was only taught about his body. And I was kind of upset by that. I think that lack of familiarity with the topic is what makes it people get terrified by, threatened by, find an opportunity to tease, et cetera. So if you just take away that. mysteriousness about it, then there's nothing left to tease.

Anne:

Yeah, we need to take away the taboo. Like I think about number of times a girl has come up to me in class and like whispered with, you know, like, she's all ashamed like, oh, I've got cramps, or I have to go to the bathroom for my period. I'm like, go Like, but part of me wants to be like, here's a tampon. Who cares if the boys see let's be out there. this is something we all have.

Caroline:

yeah. But at the same time, like,, I understand body fluids are weird and whether it's a girl body fluid or a boy body fluid, I don't really wanna deal with boy fluids either, you know?

Anne:

Yes, they're gross. Let's step by them One criticism I have, and I wish Tabitha had stopped him from doing this, is this superfluous description of breasts. I mean, you know, the reference to dirty pillows. I'm actually okay with that because that's a sign of Margaret White's insanity that she thinks breasts are dirty pillows. Right, because that's reflecting her. She

Caroline:

she uses the same word that Austin Powers uses to describe my

Anne:

Which one?

Caroline:

dirty

Anne:

pillow. Oh yeah. Well,

Caroline:

Austin Powers describes.

Anne:

oh, okay.'cause he got it from this.

Caroline:

ever heard that term.

Anne:

Yes, he definitely got it from this. I don't remember that. Okay. even Miss Dejardin, the PE teacher, she's described with a whistle dangling between her small breasts. Like, why, why do we need that description? Doesn't matter. And at one point I think Chris is described as wearing no bra and jiggling, and Sue refers to it as a dirty old man's dream. or a dirty young man's dream. Stephen King, 26.

Caroline:

Yeah. Okay, so I have a request. When you become a famous author and you are writing about men and boys. just men. When you're writing about men, I wanna leave miners out of this. When you're writing about men, I want you to mention how loose their pants are with lots of room, toss, spare, you know, like is bulging. Everything,

Anne:

Ugh,

Caroline:

like unless it's a gut, you know, that might be bulging.

Anne:

no thank you. I would not objectify men like that Gross.

Caroline:

Here I am talking about how hurt people hurt people, and that's not an

Anne:

Yes. You just want me to take

Caroline:

a

Anne:

vengeance on all the male writers who have described breasts throughout history. oh, another thing, I think there's a bit of fat phobia in this. He describes Margaret White as a big woman. Her legs swelled. Her feet overflowed her shoes, you know, and I think Carrie's described in that way a little bit too, which

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

something you point out and I think that reflects the time, right. The 1970s was,

Caroline:

Well, it hasn't totally ended,

Anne:

no, it's, and it probably never will. what did you think of the, the format, the epistolary format, like that mix of police reports and testimony and articles?

Caroline:

I really enjoyed that. I, in general, like things to be broken up in some way or another, whether it's by perspective or by time. I really appreciate that in all forms of storytelling, I find it to be. Very fascinating and interesting. And I also love what happens in my own head when things start to piece together. so I love that it's not just a juxtaposition of time and perspective, but also types of things that are being described. Like some of it's quite logistical and factual and some of it is quite and, I don't know, more in depth and you feel like you're there. It it, that is also a a fun like switch up for your brain.

Anne:

Yeah, I think it's a fun way to fill in those blanks rather than just giving us different characters' perspectives and how they're seeing it, to kind of see how the world saw this,

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

most of the time I liked it. I agree with you. But there were times towards the end as the action was ramping up where they would take a break for a testimony. And I was like, wait, no, just gimme Carrie. Like, I just wanna know what's happening in this moment with her. But yes, otherwise I liked it. okay. Do we have any. Unanswered questions. do you have any unanswered questions that we haven't discussed?

Caroline:

yeah, I already mentioned I wanted to know more about her mom and her dad. Like I really just wish I knew more about the history of her life. and I think also, I understand that Chris's dad is a lawyer, but like, is that enough to be such a nightmare? I don't know.

Anne:

think so.

Caroline:

else is going on with her?

Anne:

Oh, oh, was it? Oh, I thought you meant he's a nightmare. yeah.

Caroline:

because I, because you know what, Sandy Cohen from the OC is a lovely lawyer,

Anne:

Okay. Not a lawyers, not a lawyer. Children.

Caroline:

I know he is a public defender and all that, but I was

Anne:

Oh yeah. He's the right kind of lawyer for tv. I.

Caroline:

Right. Kind of eyebrows, right. Kinda lawyer.

Anne:

Eyebrows, Mr. Eyebrows. Um, do you think telekinesis is possible?

Caroline:

No,

Anne:

course you don't.

Caroline:

say no. Do you,

Anne:

Uh, no. But, okay. I feel like I'm doing free advertising for last podcast on the left because, um,

Caroline:

you are

Anne:

I keep,

Caroline:

from TCO and you last

Anne:

yeah,

Caroline:

have to.

Anne:

yeah. I mean, come on. Marcus and Henry, I've told our 10 fans about you multiple times, return the favor to your thousands. Um, well, they have an episode on the Enfield Poltergeist that I listen to, and it's one of those things where there's a lot of documented activity that other people besides the family involved, witnessed and is very hard to explain. And I also listened to, a podcast about reigning stones with different. Stories of Poltergeist in Australia, which is how carrie's, powers first manifests. Like there's reigning stones when Margaret White locks her in the closet and almost murders her. so yeah, I just, I possibly believe in the possibility of Poltergeist because there are these moments that have been documented that are not really adequately explained as hoaxes. And then the idea that Poltergeist activity usually coincides with a, a girl going through puberty. So is telekinesis potentially the control of a Poltergeist or something like that? I don't know. I just, I think it's interesting to think about, but yeah, I don't think I believe in it.

Caroline:

This is secondhand, but I was at dinner with, my mother-in-law. best friend has twins, when one twin broke a bone, the other twin felt it at that moment

Anne:

Ooh.

Caroline:

supposedly. And I have also heard of all these like instances where there are twins separated at birth through adoption or whatever other thing that they wouldn't do in this day and age, but they used to, and that they end up with the same haircut, wearing the same kind of clothes, marrying the same person, the same kind of profession, having the same, you know, like a lot of these connections that you couldn't explain in our modern understanding of science in the world. I do think that is a level of connection between people that maybe we don't get, but I don't think that, you know, you could disappear the glass

Anne:

Mm.

Caroline:

between you and the snake for Dudley Durley.

Anne:

I guess that's the question. Do we all have a touch of the shining if we were willing to listen? Right? Like that time where you hear about babies and, and tweens where the veil is thin. Like, my niece were the force. Yes. My niece always would walk into my in-law's living room and point up into the corner and say Ghosty when she was about two years old and she didn't do it anywhere else. And I, I've probably told you this story about my daughter when she was like, I dunno, little, like three or four. I. We were at my parents' house and she said, I've got something in my head and I can't get it out. Hannah Johnston's in the house. And we have I told you that before,

Caroline:

Yes.

Anne:

uh, on this podcast

Caroline:

No. No, I don't think so.

Anne:

Um,

Caroline:

podcast.

Anne:

yeah. And I just was like, where did she get that? What is being communicated to her? So I don't know. I am, I let ghosts, I'm open to those things. another unanswered question I have, is there's this moment when Sue Snell gets her period right at the end, and she's not pregnant, and there is a reference to a howling cheated scream. And I thought that was interesting. Why does she feel cheated that she's not pregnant?

Caroline:

because that boy loved her

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

and he's gone. I think part of her wanted him to be able to continue as a person.

Anne:

Yeah. And that's the end of him. The end of his line.

Caroline:

And he's just gone.

Anne:

Yeah. I

Caroline:

I, I don't think she wanted to be a mother, but

Anne:

I

Caroline:

do think she wanted him to be able to live on.

Anne:

yeah. And I think like biologically, our bodies wanna be pregnant, rationally we don't. Right. And there have been times when I have rationally not wanted to be pregnant, but been late or whatever, and thought, oh, I might be, And then I get my period. And even though I don't want a baby at that point in my life, whether it's because of my career, my free time, my finances, my age, my ability to sleep, I'm rationally relieved. But there's like this tiny, tiny, tiny little part of me that is disappointed. I get the cheated scream, even though it doesn't make sense for her lifestyle at that moment to be pregnant. I think that's a real feeling for me at least. I, I would not speak for all women at all, but

Caroline:

Yeah. She could have used Phoebe in that moment.

Anne:

what happened with Phoebe, remind me.

Caroline:

when Rachel takes a the second pregnancy test in case it's wrong,

Anne:

Yes.

Caroline:

then Phoebe's like, you're not pregnant. And she's like, oh, well that's okay. know? And she's like, crying. And then Phoebe's like, no, you are,

Anne:

And she's like,

Caroline:

know how you feel.

Anne:

that was a risky trick or something, right? Like,

Caroline:

Yeah, yeah,

Anne:

yeah,

Caroline:

yeah.

Anne:

yeah. It was a risky. All right. Let's talk about the real horror beneath the surface. Obviously the. Bullying, the cruelty, the viciousness of teenage girls. And not just girls, obviously boys too, which I think hearkens back to our discussion of Sweet Bobby and what happens there. religious extremism, the use of scripture to justify evil, which reminds me of Midnight Mass and Bev Keen. by the way, I listened to a last podcast on the left about Revelations and no one should be taking spiritual guidance from that book. It's Hell, an apocalypse fan fiction that was probably just anti-woman propaganda that made sense at the time, 68, 69 Ad John the whatever has not predicted anything. Please don't take it literally like the Margaret Whites and Bev Keens of the world.

Caroline:

I think we might have lost anyone religious a few episodes ago.

Anne:

Absolutely. Sorry. sexual repression, control of women's body shaming. How women can become the source of our own oppression. How we can perpetrate the patriarchy, the way the girls are condemning Carrie in the tampon throwing scene. it's stoning, it's mass hysteria. It the way we in groups lose our empathy and our humanity. And of course, child abuse. You know, that the call is coming from inside the house with Carrie, that home is not a safe place and I feel so sorry for those kids who don't have a sanctuary. And finally parents who ride in on their white horse to save their horribly privileged brats. I'm talking about Chris's lawyer, dad.

Caroline:

Yeah, that's a good one.

Anne:

Any other deeper horror? Oh, having said that, if the principal had let Chris off the hook, maybe the entire senior class would've lived, but oh, well,

Caroline:

Oh my God, that might be the greatest horror.

Anne:

yeah. Did we learn anything about survival?

Caroline:

Uh, no. Did you?

Anne:

Know your exits. Pay attention to the flight attendants. Um,

Caroline:

right.

Anne:

um,

Caroline:

11 a or whatever that guy was in, in that

Anne:

I know,

Caroline:

flight.

Anne:

I know that's.

Caroline:

I'm o only gonna book the 11th row for now

Anne:

I mean, that guy's gotta be the next star of final destination, right? He survived a plane crash, he was meant to die. Um, don't be cruel. I always think of that scene in Billy Madison where, Adam Sandler, well, Billy Madison, Adam Sandler calls up the kitty bullied in school and says, sorry, and then Steve Buscemi like crosses him off as people to kill list,

Caroline:

I love that scene.

Anne:

Like, you never know who the, the rage you are causing by being cruel. So just, just be nice

Caroline:

Right.

Anne:

and sex ed. Sex ed is necessary. Carrie should have known what was going on. Understanding basically bodily functions is necessary for everybody. Boys should know about periods too.

Caroline:

A thousand percent. I agree.

Anne:

Overall, did you like it? Would you recommend it?

Caroline:

Yes. I thought it was great.

Anne:

Great

Caroline:

it. I, I have a question for you. Is part of the reason that you love this movie, sorry, book, is it that in this, the last scare scene where there's another kinetic

Anne:

Telekinetic,

Caroline:

telekinetic. A having person,

Anne:

a telekinetic child.

Caroline:

who has tele

Anne:

Telekinetic.

Caroline:

child?

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

that her name is Anne and that the other one's name is Carrie.

Anne:

You know what? I didn't even notice that.

Caroline:

Stop it.

Anne:

No, I just, I, I like that scene because I was like, Ooh, it's not over. Right. This could happen again. But yeah, I, uh,

Caroline:

notice that she had your name?

Anne:

no, right over my head.

Caroline:

That's hilarious. So sorry. Listeners. Annie's sister's name is Carrie.

Anne:

Yes, I've got a lot of Carolines in my life.

Caroline:

at the very end, I was like, oh, she loves this movie because Suzanne

Anne:

Nope, nothing to do with my love of this book or movie. I'm not that self-centered. Come on. All

Caroline:

it's just about, you know, you feel connected to

Anne:

me.

Caroline:

if

Anne:

do feel connected to, it's funny because normally I do notice that, like, I remember feeling very connected to Annie from Speed, Sandra Bullock's character's name Annie. and as you know, Kea Kea Reeves In In Speed was one of my first crushes, you know, I could imagine myself in her situation. And, um, it helped that I had the same name. And, also Annie Murphy. I love that. Her name is Annie from

Caroline:

yeah,

Anne:

Creek. Her real name, not her character name. Okay. Do you have a pallet cleanser?

Caroline:

I do. So, lately, I think I've mentioned in earlier episodes that my kids and I like to watch TikTok at night. we've been watching these. Storm Trooper vlogging videos where it's like a guy storm. Tr I, I think it's all created by ai. I Because there's all this crazy graphic scenery and everything. the first one we saw was like, Hey guys, we just got a new assignment from Vader's bitch ass and he is sending us to indoor, you know, and like, it's hilarious. Then they're like, I think I saw a little furry thing chasing after us. Then they end up in a tree and he is like, guess those were real, huh? You know, and he's like, I thought you made them up. And there's a whole long series of it. So let me shout out the creator, their name is at Storm Trooper Vlogs with a Z. So Storm Trooper the way you would expect. And then V-L-O-G-Z,

Anne:

That sounds amazing. I, I love Star Wars humor. That's my jam. Have you ever seen, um, the SNL skit Undercover Boss with Adam Driver?

Caroline:

Of course I love undercover bas and then we also, the old like robot chicken, skits and stuff like that. Like all of them are great. so highly

Anne:

I will have to check that out. Thank you. All right, so If you like this you want to hear someone with better credentials than us discussing, Carrie, there's a 50th anniversary episode on the podcast, talking Scared with the host Neil mc Robert, who's a professor of gothic literature. So, it's a great podcast in general for academic conversations with authors about horror. I've listened to all his episodes on books that I've read, but there's a part of me that just wants to start at the beginning of his podcast and take all his horror recommendations. Obviously you should watch the various Carrie adaptations. I'm looking forward to Mike Flanagan's take in 2026, read on Writing by Stephen King. It's a great autobiography, as well as full of some wonderful writing advice, and he goes into the story of how Carrie came to fruition in more detail. If you're looking for Stephen King books with similar vibes, the Institute, Dr. Sleep, and The Shining. All have Stephen King kids with powers. I also recommend the haunting of Hill House the book, Carrie's first evidence of telekinesis is reigning rocks, which is definitely a reference to Eleanor Vance. in Shirley Jackson's novel. And she's also the source of our sign off quote about delighting in what you fear. This is, as we said, an epistolary novel. So it's in good company with Dracula, which is a collection of diary entries, letters, memos, and news. you know, it's the sense of dread still holds up. Some other really good epistolary novels that I wanna cover at some point are World War Z and Fantastic Land, the Mist and Midnight mass for religious extremists who quote scripture and wreak havoc for bullying stories. You could go classic with Lord of the Flies. Carrie is the piggy of this story, but she actually fights back. Let the right one in. I've recommended before as a vampire story with a. Horrible bully. And of course Stephen King's it if you want. something a little bit lighter, you could watch some prom movies. Like she's all that and Footloose and American Pie. can you think of any other good prom?

Caroline:

God I love. She's all that

Anne:

Yeah, I mean it's the, she's all that is this right? He was like taking her.

Caroline:

Napoleon Dynamite has

Anne:

Dynamite.

Caroline:

and a dance at the end. let's see. pretty and pink.

Anne:

Pretty and Pink. Well, there's some questionable stuff in Pretty and Pink now, but it's still

Caroline:

Yeah. Yeah.

Anne:

has a special place in my heart. I mean, all these prompt stories are Cinderella stories, right? Like this is a Cinderella story. They both feature horrifically abused young women who go to a dance and get revenge. Cinderella took the, um, living Well is the best revenge path and Carrie chose total annihilation.

Caroline:

Oh, can we plug ever after? Which I think is the best Cinderella story of all

Anne:

I love Ever After. Yes. Ever after. for Girls With Powers, the Girl with all the Gifts is a great book. Matilda the Musical. Have you seen that yet?

Caroline:

No.

Anne:

Oh my God, it's so good. It makes me cry every time. The little actress who plays Matilda is so good. I, I went into Matilda in the musical, like really resistant because I'm a nineties Matilda fan, but I have to say, I think I like this movie better. the girl who plays Matilda is also in this kind of fun vampire movie called Abigail. and let's see. Oh, I'm a little hesitant to recommend this because I actually haven't read it, but there's this book called Mary by Nat Cassidy and he was. Heavily influenced by Carrie. but it's about a woman whose powers come out in menopause. So I'm interested in picking that up and it gets good reviews. So that's high on my list. oh, and Stranger Things. We've talked about all the, the parallels finally mean Girls. I think this might be the third time I've recommended mean Girls in our nine episodes, so I might just like, say Mean Girls is an ongoing recommendation. Watch mean Girls every time it comes on tv, which seems to be a lot.

Caroline:

So we get to talk to Tina Fey and tell her about our podcast

Anne:

Yes, Tina Phi,

Caroline:

her.

Anne:

are your number one fans.

Caroline:

so a recommendation that's also kind of a palate cleanser because you mentioned, trying to think about if you had read this without knowing anything about it. another thing I love to watch on TikTok is reaction videos to kind of shocking twists in cinema. so, weird to call the movie crazy stupid love cinema, but is a lot of videos where people react to that party scene crazy stupid love. I'm not gonna spoil anything if you haven't seen it,

Anne:

I haven't.

Caroline:

that is a very fun thing to watch, like people's reactions to because now it's been long enough since the original Star Wars. There are people who are not aware of the connection between Luke and Vader. if you're listening to this and you're not sorry, but. Uh, you can watch reaction videos of people seeing Star Wars and realizing the connection between Luke Invader. Also scenes in Grey's Anatomy. There have been several kind of shocking in Grey's Anatomy. and then the other thing that is not at all a palate cleanser, it's quite the opposite. The show adolescence, which a lot of people have talked about, and I think is one of the best shows ever made, devastatingly. So, it also explores situations where everyone's a little bit accountable. There's no one guy. There's accountability kind of on all sides, and how do you reconcile that and do you deal with it and how do you cope in the aftermath and how, how do you atone for it, as a family member, et cetera. So highly, highly recommend adolescents

Anne:

I haven't been able to bring myself to watch that yet. It's sounds so sad and dark. Yeah.

Caroline:

It is very, very dark.

Anne:

Okay. your next homework assignment is going to be in response to Carrie, you have, an episode you'd like to focus on. Caroline, what was that?

Caroline:

Yes. So it was hard to choose what thing to pick of this case, but I wanted us to watch the, Hulu docuseries called the act. It's Hulu here in this country. Is it? it on for

Anne:

I think it's on like random channel seven or something here. It's like not on anything, but it's available.

Caroline:

Okay, So, it's called the act, and it covers the case of Gypsy Rose Blanchard, dealing with abusive mothers and their daughters who fight back.

Anne:

Yes. Very clear connection there. and we wanna give you a heads up because we're gonna recommend another book after that.

Caroline:

So we also wanted to talk about catch and kill, in relationship to jaws. In my mind. The true crime of Jaws is the coverup. and so it most, reminded me of Catch and Kill, which was an amazing book to read. and so I, I wanted to highly recommend that and for us to go for that one. Next, as a book.

Anne:

Okay, so next episodes are the Act and then Catch and Kill. So that way if you need to get out that library book, you have the time to do that. Okay. Thank you for listening. Please do all the things podcasters ask you to do. Tell a friend, write a review on iTunes, and if like Shirley Jackson, you delight in what you fear. Join us in two weeks here at Drawn to Darkness. Special thanks to Nancy Ano for our cover art. You can find her on Instagram at Nancy ano. And to Harry Kidd. You can also find him on Instagram and Spotify.

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