Drawn to Darkness

11 - The Act

• Anne Azano • Episode 11

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This week we dive into The Act, Hulu’s dramatization of the harrowing true story of Dee Dee and Gypsy Rose Blanchard. Though many of us would fake sick for the occasional day off, this takes it to the next level. It’s a case of Munchausen’s by proxy, blurred lines between victim and perpetrator, and the disturbing question of how far someone will go for sympathy and control.

Spoiler & Trigger Warning

  • Physical, emotional, and medical child abuse
  • References to sex, BDSM, and needles
  • Disturbing dental procedures and feeding tubes
  • On-screen gore, blended pizza, and implied animal harm (guinea pigs do survive)
  • Murder
  • We also spoil plot details inThe Act, and discuss Mommy Dead and Dearest 

Episode Synopsis

The Act dramatizes the story of Gypsy Rose Blanchard, raised by her mother Dee Dee to believe she was terminally ill. Dee Dee presented herself as a martyr-mother, fooling neighbours, charities, and doctors alike. In reality, Gypsy was healthy—isolated, infantilised, and subjected to years of unnecessary medical procedures.

We'll unpack how the show portrays Dee Dee as both abuser and, perhaps too sympathetic, and why that left us uneasy. We discuss Patricia Arquette’s chilling performance, the liberties taken with the truth (from invented guinea pigs to altered jail sentences), and Gypsy’s portrayal as both manipulated child and complicit conspirator. This episode unpacks the blurred line between self-defence and premeditated murder, and the ethical questions raised by dramatizing true crime stories without consent, the disturbing ways abuse warps morality, and the deeper horrors—exploitation, celebrity culture, systemic medical failures, and the trauma of growing up under a narcissistic parent.

Palate Cleanser:

Head to TikTok for the Hamilton trend where creators don powdered wigs, leap out of windows, and lip-sync to “come back to sleep, I have an early meeting out of town.” It’s the collective silliness and joy we all need.

Recommendations:

Podcasts

  • Wine and Crime — Episode 6 covers Munchausen’s, a dark but entertaining gateway into the show.
  • Nobody Should Believe Me (by Andrea Dunlop) — each season covers a different case of Munchausen’s by proxy/medical child abuse.
  • My Favorite Murder (Episode 47, “Live at the Bellhouse”) — the Blanchard case meets true crime comedy with guest appearances from LPOTL.
  • The Viall Files — January 2024 episode features Gypsy Rose and her (now ex-) husband reflecting just weeks after her prison release.

Documentaries & TV

  • Mommy Dead and Dearest — sanctioned by Gypsy, offering a more factual perspective.
  • Take Care of Maya — Munchausen’s or systemic medical failure?
  • The Curious Case of Natalia Grace — blurred lines between victimhood and manipulation.
  • Run — horror film starring Sarah Paulson as a mother and her wheelchair-bound daughter.
  • Sharp Objects (book and show) — another toxic mother-daughter dynamic.
  • Misery —  caretaker turned captor.

For fans of the actors 

  • The Conjuring, Severance, Stigmata, American Vandal, Silence of the Lambs, Never Have I Ever, Kids, Zodiac, American Psycho and more! 

Homework Assignment

Our next episode is The Sixth Sense. Longer-term: read Catch and Kill by Ronan Farrow (because the cover-up is the crime, or at least part of it).

Special thanks to Nancy Azano for our cover art (Instagram: @nancyazano) and Harry Kidd for composing o

Anne:

Welcome back to Drawn to Darkness, a biweekly podcast where we discuss our favorite horror and true crime. If you regularly refer to the DSM five, when making an armchair diagnosis of a victim or perp, we're here for you. My name is Annie and I'll be introducing Caroline to my favorite horror movies, podcast, TV shows and books.

Caroline:

And my name is Caroline, and I'll be doing the same from the true crime side of things.

Anne:

I have a question for you. Have you ever faked sick?

Caroline:

to Miss school. What about you?

Anne:

Same. Many times, I mean, I've, uh, I got in trouble in high school for faking doctor's appointments because this was in the era where cell phones were really new and one of my friends had one, and then we would go to the bathroom and call the school office pretending to be each other's moms and saying, we had an appointment and had to leave and then go to the beach.

Caroline:

ballsy.

Anne:

Right.

Caroline:

Wow.

Anne:

We got caught though, like we did get caught in the end my dad used to write a note or no. So he would let me write a note. He would say, okay, you write the note and I'll sign it. if I actually did have a doctor's appointment or something, so then I realized, well, the only thing I have to forge is my dad's signature. Which I then did and it happened to be on a day that a lot of people were cutting school'cause a bunch of people were going to the beach and they called all their parents and I got caught and I got a week's worth of detentions. It's the only time I got caught doing anything bad in high school. And I was like straight a's National Honor Society, And I will always remember Mr. Morrissey taking the piss outta me so much for those five days in detentions just relentlessly flying me.

Caroline:

Wow. No, I never did anything like that. my mom did think I was faking my broken wrist, but it was broken.

Anne:

Hashtag eighties parent. Right. So the reason we're talking about this is because today we are covering the act, which is a dramatization of the events leading up to the real murder of Deedee Blanchard. Before we get started, I just wanna give a spoiler and trigger warning in this discussion. And on the TV show, there's physical, emotional, and medical child abuse. There's sex, there's references to BDSM needles. The hamsters do not die, at least on screen. There's a dick pic and just overall, it's a very disturbing and unsettling show. But if none of that is triggering for you, go watch it as there will be spoilers. Okay, here we go.

Caroline:

Okay. Yes. And some of you may recall this hitting the news in 2015'cause it sort of began at the end. But, Didi Blanchard, a woman who suffered with munchausen's by proxy spending years isolating, controlling and medically abusing her perfectly healthy daughter, gypsy Rose, as well as lying to everyone. She knew about her daughter's conditions for attention and more gypsy ages and starts to realize she is not as sick as she has been raised to believe. She begins to secretly seek out a normal life, meaning man on a Christian dating site whom she eventually conspires with to murder her mother.

Anne:

before we go too much further, we should. Define what Munchausen's by proxy is, because this was what, Didi Blanchard was posthumously diagnosed with. at least armchair diagnosed, right? I wanted to know more about this. So I went back to one of the first podcasts I ever consistently listened to in my life, which is stuff you should know with Josh and Chuck. Did you ever listen to them?

Caroline:

Yes.

Anne:

Early days of podcasting, right? And they have an episode on Munchhausen delightful to hear their voices again. I used to love them, and it's not that I don't love them anymore, I just, my interest changed. But Munchausen is when someone makes themselves sick or pretends to be sick for some psychological need, attention and sympathy. They talked about something so, so gross. there was this guy who would cut himself smear feces on the wounds so it would get infected. And then go to the doctors and require amputations. people do some pretty unhinged stuff when they have this. But we're specifically talking today about munchausen's by proxy, which is now referred to as fictitious disorder imposed on another. I think we'll keep saying Munchausen's just'cause that's the way I know about it, but,

Caroline:

I also

Anne:

um,

Caroline:

as just medical child abuse.

Anne:

okay. That's easier. Yeah. there are other examples besides what we're about to talk about. Lacey Spears poisoned her 5-year-old with salt and also blogged for attention. There's a Rolling Stone article that I'll link in the show notes that talks about a number of cases, it makes me wonder How many people who do this medically abuse their children for attention? How many of those children die without anyone knowing?

Caroline:

Yeah,

Anne:

So red flags? Yeah. Red flags include seeking attention, reporting hard to prove symptoms that are not actually seen by the doctor, but reported by the caregiver doctor. Shopping. Sometimes a background in medicine, like maybe having been a nurse or trying to get into medical school. so they tend to know a lot about healthcare and therefore can work the system. It can be someone taking care of an elderly parent, but often the victim is a child. This often results in unnecessary medical procedures, medication that might actually make the child sick and sometimes death. This is different from malingering by proxy or malingering, which is what Carolyn and I did when we faked sick. No, not really. malingering by proxy is when someone knows they aren't sick or they know their child isn't sick, but they're pretending to be unwell that their child is unwell for financial gain. in reality, this case is a bit of both.

Caroline:

I think with most things, I'm a person who thinks everything is a spectrum, right? And Didi was a very extreme case of medical child abuse. The people whose children die from, it obviously would be another. but I think, there's definitely gonna be a lot of overlap there.

Anne:

Yeah, I have coincidentally two sick children upstairs right now watching tv, home from school. I was up half the night dealing with coughing and fevers. Anyone who would want this is. So sick and what I'm dealing with is a cold, like it'll be over in a week, to a few days. But to want your child to be chronically ill for attention is absolutely abhorrent and I guess indicative of some pretty severe mental health issues.

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

So what adjective would you use to describe this?

Caroline:

Well, okay, so one thing I wanted to sort of get clear as we start talking about things is, this episode of our podcast, we are covering the act, right? I wanna be clear that most of the discussion, I think is gonna be around. The way things are conveyed in the act. you and I both have since also watched Mommy dead and dearest. We've absorbed other mediums. I just wanna make sure, the listeners know when we're talking about the situation that Didi put her child in versus this? production. when I think about this production, this is the second time I watched it through and I found it a little suspect. I gotta say I didn't love it as much as the first time, and I do sort of regret recommending it honest.

Anne:

Okay.

Caroline:

there were a lot of things about it the first time I watched it that. It made me really love it, like some of the actors that are in it. I love Patricia Arquette in everything she does. I love Chloe cni in everything she does. I love, what's her face, Juliet Lewis and everything she does, Hank from Breaking Bad is in it. You know, like there's a lot of great performances and great people. I don't love some of the ways that they convey Gypsy, the ways that it seemed unnecessarily sympathetic towards deedee in a way I didn't think she deserved.

Anne:

Okay. Yeah, I mean, I felt the same way in terms of my criticism of it. I think the problem with any dramatization of true crime is that they do fudge the details. And, you know, the whole time I'm watching, I'm like, oh, how accurate is this? Is that the way it actually went down? And having done some research after, you know, there's quite a few inaccuracies, for example, things that, like, why did they change this? No hamsters, Gypsy said, she didn't have hamsters totally made up. And DEI apparently in real life, only spent one night in jail, not six months, that really does make you feel more sympathetic to her. Right? it doesn't sound like she deserves that sympathy.

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

Uh, another change was gypsy's neighbor. Wasn't the wild child portrayed in the show? and they, they make it clear. It's a, a dramatization, it's an interpretation. And, this is a problem potentially with documentaries too, because, documentaries are making choices about what they include and whose perspectives they show and who they are, portraying as sympathetic or unsympathetic. So even, a true crime documentary isn't a hundred percent accurate, but this was less accurate than a documentary. And also, apparently Gypsy Rose is not very happy about this either. she was not consulted. She says that she was really proud of her involvement in Mommy Dead and dearest, but she didn't get compensated. She didn't get consulted. So, and there's a lot of ethics, I think, of dramatizations, of a real human being's story, that just need to be considered.

Caroline:

Yeah. And that's why I think I might have mentioned in one of our early episodes that. I don't tend to love these series, like I'm not interested in watching the Menendez one. I started watching the one about Grace and I just found them to be, generally speaking, quite exploitative. This, I think it, it would be hard to exploit what was already so sensational to begin with. You know, I think because of the announcement coming out on Facebook, et cetera, which I'm sure we'll get into, it was already quite well covered in a lot of ways. But I guess capitalizing on that to tell a story that might not have been quite fair to everyone involved is something I'm not super proud giving extra voice to, I guess. So it's good that we mention our true feelings on it.

Anne:

The adjective I would use, and I guess this is more about what happened than about the show is unfair. I'm gonna put it out there at the beginning. I'm a gypsy rose apologist. if she's actually a sociopath, manipulating everyone. She's definitely got me fooled. we can talk about that more in depth later, but I think she needed psychological care, not prison. I know I came off as a bit of a Carrie White apologist last episode as well, and I just want to clarify that I in no way excuse murder, particularly at the scale. Carrie took revenge. I don't excuse what Gypsy did, you know, no matter how bullied or traumatized or abused, but you need to take into account the way an abused child with a developing brain. Who's experienced trauma and isolation can have a really warped sense of morality and options. So I feel like what happened to her is very unfair.

Caroline:

Yeah, I agree. I

Anne:

I.

Caroline:

if she were a sociopath manipulating us all, she certainly earned reasons people could understand. Your situation, your mental illness is not your fault, but it is your responsibility. So certainly it wouldn't excuse abuse of others, et cetera. to be fair to the series, it does attempt to illustrate the essence of what we're saying here in that by portraying DeeDee's mom this kind of emotionally abusive, you're never enough type mom, you do start to feel sympathy for Didi, in a way that, again, having watched Mommy dead and dearest, and speaking to members of. immediate family I. don't know that we needed to feel sympathy for her.

Anne:

Let's talk about Didi. I mean, to quote Chicago, she had it coming. no, I shouldn't say that. I take it back. No. very well acted, by Patricia Arquette, even if we take issue with the sympathetic portrayal, Patricia Arquettes really gone evil lately between this and severance. I mean, I haven't seen season two, so I don't know. Maybe she's not as evil as she appears in season one, but, yeah, that's some interesting directions that she's going in as an actress.

Caroline:

She's also an escape from Dana Moura, which is another dramatization of a,

Anne:

Is that good? I haven't seen it.

Caroline:

it. I did. much like this, you look up stuff later to see how accurate it was. but I thought it was probably closer to the truth than this one,

Anne:

Well to the outside world, both in the portrayal of this and in real life. She was a wonderful dotting self-sacrificing patient, martyr of a mother, when in reality she was a narcissist, a liar, an abuser, pretending to be a saint with a sick child, to manipulate people into feeling pity for her and giving her attention. She has quite a few, munchhouse by proxy. Red flags once worked as a nurse's aide, changing locations so there was no clear medical trail history of shoplifting, bad checks, small acts of fraud. Do you remember? I feel like it's an early, my favorite murder episode where they talk about how, often somebody who goes on to actually do something horrible starts this way.

Caroline:

I, I know they talked about. I had mentioned a couple times like the need to take peeping Toms more seriously, which always makes me feel

Anne:

Mm.

Caroline:

when I watch back to the future, when I'm,

Anne:

We just watch back to the future. And I, my kids get mad at me for like, turning everything into a lecture and I'm like, you know, doing that to a woman is very bad. Like, that is not appropriate. And my kids are like, mom, we know.

Caroline:

But fair, you.

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

Georgia, you did teach as well?

Anne:

Well, in the show, Chloe 70, Mel, I, I agree with you. I loved seeing her. I thought she was such a great character. as a foil or a contrast to Didi, like, she's tough. She's no bullshit. Didi's pure bullshit. She's not a perfect mom. She's not like super duper loving, but you can respect her for being genuine. which is obviously the opposite of.

Caroline:

And I thought her

Anne:

what was I gonna say about,

Caroline:

sweet. I did the same as you fact checking after the fact. And it does sound like the relationship that the daughter and Gypsy Rose had was very similar to how it was conveyed on the series. I'm sure they were able to actually speak to that daughter, And I just kept thinking this is so kind. for like a teenager, I don't think of teenagers as being kind, generally speaking. There. Another podcast, I love with Dateline, where they cover Dateline episodes. They have a phrase for teenage boys. They call them bows, which is short for bag of wieners.

Anne:

Okay. And we're both heading into that direction pretty soon. Hey, and. So in the show, Mel calls them after the reveal happens, emotional vampires, that they're sucking goodwill from others, pretty apt.

Caroline:

hmm.

Anne:

had this sob story triad, right? Like sick kid, Katrina, victim, abusive ex, and two of those three things are lies, right? Like Rod Blanchard was 17 and though he didn't wanna be married to Didi, he did try to be involved with Gypsy and was eventually cut out of her life. And from what I read, he continued to send money,

Caroline:

I mean, 17, he was a minor. She was 24. I really sympathize with him about that.

Anne:

they give us DeeDee's traumatic backstory with her mother. But wouldn't it been interesting to see that relationship her. Probably manipulating a 17-year-old. Right? Because maybe people who are older could see through her. And they don't, go into that at all. So that was an omission

Caroline:

Totally.

Anne:

that Makes Didi more, not less sympathetic. Do you know, was she actually a Katrina victim? Because I've seen both things online. I've seen that it was bullshit, and I've seen that yes, her apartment was destroyed. Do we know?

Caroline:

Oh, I thought she was, I

Anne:

Okay.

Caroline:

thought how fucking lucky for her that

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

happened, because it is a good excuse why there are no records,

Anne:

Yes. And for someone who traffics in, pity, How great is that to have something worth pitying her for Now, obviously she made up the abusive ex thing, but that was just a, a perfect confluence of events for someone like Deedee Blanchard. she was smothering, suffocating, controlling, clutching, gypsy's hand in interviews. You know, hand handholding is something that can be so sweet, but it's also possessive. So she's using love and care to manipulate. thought it was kind of weird that they slept in the same bed too,

Caroline:

Yeah,

Anne:

at that age, I guess. I guess if you have a child that is actually, having trouble breathing at night and you need to be there, it makes sense. But given that FIPSE wasn't actually sick, it's smothering.

Caroline:

totally.

Anne:

why do you think she was like that? Why do you think she did what she did? What is your armchair diagnosis?

Caroline:

I think she's just a narcissistic sociopath. with a need to be a victim. And, I, I think it's kind of and dry that way. I think she was too selfish to do it to herself. cause you can, like you just said, in the beginning of the episode, people will make themselves sick for attention if they need to. but isn't it so much better when you don't have to actually suffer at all? You just make someone else suffer and you get to look like a saint, you know?

Anne:

They also show her as having, diabetes and being quite unwell herself towards the end of her life. that true? I don't know.

Caroline:

for some reason I looked up everything else and not that one. I wouldn't be surprised if she ended up with diabetes. I mean, it's not that uncommon to end up with

Anne:

Yeah,

Caroline:

type two diabetes if you're not being healthy. And I, I can't, she didn't look healthy.

Anne:

no, she did not. I mean, the show hypothesizes that it's her overbearing mom being abandoned by her husband and that time spent in jail resulted in this pathological need for attention, in Mommy Dead and Dearest. There's also the implication that perhaps she poisoned her stepmother and withheld food from her mother who was dying. and I guess they kind of imply that in the show, I guess if like your family thinks you suck, you probably suck, right?

Caroline:

Well,

Anne:

Like,

Caroline:

yeah, that's the thing from mommy, dad and dearest that when you're, you're in an interview with her dad who has the most interesting accent.

Anne:

I loved those accents.

Caroline:

I feel like I've never heard them before.

Anne:

It reminded me of one of the characters from True Blood

Caroline:

yeah.

Anne:

early season of True Blood. I never watched that, but

Caroline:

I loved

Anne:

I,

Caroline:

But anyway, it was such a unique The dad too, Gypsy rose's dad. but Yeah. you know, I, I actually had to rewatch that part of Mommy Dead and Dearest, which I feel like we're gonna have to, you guys, I guess should watch that too. Pause this now and go watch that. there's a discussion with a, a cousin of gypsy roses who's like, she poisoned my stepmom.

Anne:

So she got a taste for, or she's allegedly got a taste for doing this caring for elderly people and then took her daughter far away from the eyes of anyone who could have stopped this and did it to gypsy.

Caroline:

And

Anne:

I mean

Caroline:

have told people

Anne:

one.

Caroline:

wasn't actually a nice lady,

Anne:

Yeah.'cause she could just move into that little Habitat for Humanity house and start over as the saint.

Caroline:

her gumbo.

Anne:

Ugh. Sorry. No, I like gumbo. I just hate her. I mean, I get how hard it is to watch your kids stop needing you. our kids are getting older and they are so sweet when they're sick. Right? we talked in the care episode about needing your mother, and as that need lessons as they age, it's bittersweet, But it's not natural to want your child to be sick. Like, my kids are sick right now. I want them to be better. Right? And it's not natural for them not to have any friends except you. You should want your child to have friends.

Caroline:

And I want my

Anne:

And I,

Caroline:

be independent like my children. that is the point. and I have told my children, my job is to make sure that you can be an independent person in society without me.

Anne:

Which is what Chloe seventies character Mel discusses early on. Right? She is that this is the way it should be even if you're not perfect. another thing I wanted to point out, Hank from Breaking Bad shows up, loves seeing him. so he hits on her, right and he points out that she needs to make time for herself. And you know, even if dating him isn't the answer, he is right about that of parents who are caregivers for, you know, whether it's elderly parents or a chronically ill child, you do need something besides your child in your life. I think about us like we started a podcast. This is our thing, right? But. Deedee instead made her child sick.

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

what if she just had something else? Would she have, felt this pathological need to torture her daughter?

Caroline:

Not only did she make her sick, but she kept aging her down.

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

was like.

Anne:

Didn't wanna let go of childhood.

Caroline:

She thought she was like five years younger than she was or something like that. I don't math well,

Anne:

Yeah. That must have been quite a revelation. So do you think Deedee loved Gypsy?

Caroline:

No.

Anne:

was she just using her? Did she just need her?

Caroline:

Yes. She just needed her? I don't think she was capable of

Anne:

Okay.

Caroline:

What do you,

Anne:

I don't know.

Caroline:

Hmm.

Anne:

I don't know. Because again, I'm only looking at the interpretation of it, and I think this interpretation, as you said, is sympathetic. times it looks like love. but in reality, was it In reality, I doubt it because I don't think you could actually do that to someone you truly love. But again, I'm not a psychologist. I don't know.

Caroline:

yes. Good point. I do think this series wanted you to think she did love her. in

Anne:

Yes.

Caroline:

I don't think that was the case.

Anne:

I guess that brings us to gypsy, And she forced Gypsy to be deceitful, which brings us. To the question, you know,, how culpable is gypsy? How much did she know, right? Like, we know she didn't know certain things. If you look at recent Reddit threats discussing Gypsy, there's a lot of criticism of her. You know, is she the damsel and distress Cinderella, abused and trapped, or is she Lady Macbeth whispering manipulations of murder in her lover's ear? Or is she somewhere in between? So let's talk about that.

Caroline:

Gypsy does talk about this in Mommy Dead and Dearest. When you, when you're raised a certain way and you don't know any different, you really don't realize. Now, does that mean she didn't realize murder was bad? No. You know, like there definitely comes a point where she becomes aware and you, you become aware and you get, you are able to snap out of things and you are able to function in a different way. But I do think that for much of her life, and maybe up until she was in jail, even a lot of her behavior, she didn't know it to be wrong.

Anne:

Certainly the collusion. She is accused of the deceit in appearing sicker than she was. You're raised a certain way, you trust your parent, nature versus nurture. Like parents have a lot of influence. So I don't blame her for really any of that. All she knew was manipulation, lying, control, isolation. we've said that she didn't even know how old she was. She thought she had had leukemia.'cause why wouldn't she? You only know what, you know, I think when the abuse starts that young parents make your world and you lack agency and you don't know what's normal. Didi stole so much from her, The opportunity to have a relationship with her father, a normal life to ride a bike, to go to school, to make friends, you know, her salivary, glance her teeth, you know, there's that scene with Gypsy watching a little girl riding a bike. again, it's a dramatization. We dunno that happened, but probably stuff like that happened, like so many experiences, just normalcy.

Caroline:

But her

Anne:

and.

Caroline:

She lost her teeth because of the medication her mother was giving her.

Anne:

Yeah. So there's so much horrible stuff that I can see, the desperation, you know, there were so many things she coulda would've, should've done, right? she could have told a neighbor, she could have told the doctor, she could have just gotten up and walked away. And that's easy for us to say when we haven't been raised that way. so yeah, I think just that warped psychology. She was not operating under normal psychological conditions when she felt desperate enough to make that choice.

Caroline:

And then also, and then what,

Anne:

I.

Caroline:

was not abused by my mother, but we were, I had a single parent. We didn't live near family we were not moved around. I was not doctor shop, nothing like that. it was in that situation, it was definitely like I, I lived in a constant sense of panic of like, if something happens to my mom, what is gonna happen to me? Because there was. one else. And so it's like, even if she did go tell someone, she even had more of a sense because she was intentionally isolated. She even had a further sense of

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

from other people and like, what, what would've happened to her? Then she has like a second grade education. what is she gonna do?

Anne:

Well, yeah, that was one of my questions. did Didi actually homeschool Gypsy? Because homeschooling is work, right? but all we see, at least on the TV show is just them watching movies together, right? Like, did she actually ever make Gypsy do anything

Caroline:

it.

Anne:

and just use that? Oh, she has mental capacity of a 7-year-old as an excuse. Right. so, you know, so many of these things that control the isolation, these are just like classic domestic abuse red flags when we talk about partner abuse, right? The constant monitoring. The shadowing, and you know, we look at, say a movie like Enough, do you remember enough with Jayla?

Caroline:

I never saw it, but I know of it.

Anne:

Okay. So, you know, a woman fights back against her abuser and we understand it as self-defense, And we're talking about a grown woman and we're like, yeah, that she made the right call, right? And Gypsy wasn't even a grown woman. She was a child, I just think even though she went about it the wrong way, and it was planned because of the situation she was in. This is self-defense.

Caroline:

I agree. And also, The most dangerous time for an abused woman is when she's about to leave, right? So can you imagine an abused child? I mean, you've already said some of these parents do kill their children because what is more sympathetic than a sick child? A dead child?

Anne:

Absolutely. Mm-hmm.

Caroline:

I wouldn't put it past Didi. wouldn't put anything past Didi. and I, I can't imagine that it wasn't a concern of gypsies.

Anne:

I can't remember what it might have been, the Buzz Sprout article. Some journalist who had a lot to do with this said she believed if Gypsy hadn't murdered Dei, DEI would've murdered Gypsy.

Caroline:

agree.

Anne:

that was where this was headed.

Caroline:

I agree.

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

she

Anne:

I guess,

Caroline:

her a minor forever,

Anne:

no. So I guess the question is, does self-defense have to be spontaneous?

Caroline:

Well.

Anne:

This was not spontaneous, right? This was not an act of passion.

Caroline:

I think that's so fair and I think that question comes up in a lot of like true crime podcasts and, about, our justice system isn't really structured in a way that understands, self-defense in the way that some victims need, need it to be,

Anne:

Yeah. I guess we think of self-defense as like there is an imminent danger. This is happening right now, but there was like,

Caroline:

right.

Anne:

she could have been given the wrong medication to kill her anytime.

Caroline:

question comes up in the Menendez brothers as well, yeah, sure. They didn't feel an immediate threat, but is it fair for them to think that they could be in danger? think probably.

Anne:

Now Gypsy herself says, I believe this was in the Buzzfeed article. I want to make sure that people in abusive relationships do not resort to murder. No, sorry, it was a people magazine. It may seem like every avenue is closed off, but there's always another way. Do anything but don't take this course of action, which to me, speaks of growth regret, which doesn't look like sociopathy. Sociopathy, which doesn't look like sociopathy. How do you pronounce?

Caroline:

Sociopathy, yeah.

Anne:

which doesn't appear as socio sociopathy.

Caroline:

Mayonnaise.

Anne:

Okay. The mayonnaise. Having said all that, I get. The legal precedent issues that letting her off could cause, and, and mommy dead and dearest. We hear from the prosecutors and the lawyers and what they said made a lot of sense to me in terms of the fact that a murder did happen. There needs to be some accountability, and I still don't think she should have gone to jail, but I'm glad they at least didn't go for the death penalty and that they did take the abuse into account. Okay. So there are certain things we know. We know the way Gypsy and Deedee presented themselves. We know there was actually nothing wrong with her. We don't know exactly what went on behind those closed doors, All we have is Gypsy's testimony now. I'm still a Gypsy Rose defender. and I think the abuse she went through is enough to mess with her mental health so much that, you know, she didn't feel like she had any other way out. But I'm also not 100% willing to take the sensational claim that she was chained to a bed, Because she made another sensational claim that wasn't true. that she was raped on Facebook, she crafted that to be appalling, to get attention to frame a stranger. It wasn't well thought out, but there's evidence that Gypsy knows what gets people to sympathize, So when she claims she was chained to a bed with handcuffs and a dog leash for two weeks, I'm not saying it's true. I'm not saying it's not true, but I do have. Doubts, and I'm open to the possibility that there could be some inflation of the abuse she suffered behind closed doors like that. That particular claim could be true, right? I don't know,

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

but I'm just not a hundred percent willing to take it as fact. I Do you have any thoughts on that?

Caroline:

I did look up to see whether that was true or not as well in the, fact checking it was listed as probably true or possibly true or something like that? But you're right, it's only Gypsy's account, and it does seem like an odd escalation to only occur at one time. But any

Anne:

Mm-hmm.

Caroline:

starts somewhere. So I suppose, it could be. It does seem different than the other ways she was abused, and I agree too that it's probably not necessary in the grand scheme of things,

Anne:

it doesn't matter to me. I still think what we know to be true is enough

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

I could be wrong. Maybe this was corroborated at the time, maybe she was texting with Nick

Caroline:

I don't know.

Anne:

his name, right?

Caroline:

Nick

Anne:

that,

Caroline:

Dejan.

Anne:

yeah.

Caroline:

remembered a

Anne:

And, um,

Caroline:

only took

Anne:

woo hoo.

Caroline:

8 million times of learning this story.

Anne:

Anyway, none of this is black and white. but I think despite the fact that she went to prison, she talks about how prison was good for her, like she gained weight and she felt freer in prison than she ever did living with her mom, which again speaks to the severity. Of the abuse that she experienced. I listened to this podcast called the Al Files. It's this interview with her and her husband at the time, Ryan, I think they were about a week or two out of prison. And the Al Falls is this like relationship podcast. in it she talks about how leaving prison was kind of sad because she actually had friends,

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

Something she couldn't have under the thumb of her mother. And, you know, getting out, she talks about cooking in a kitchen for the first time. And again, that just reinforced to me how many normal things she missed out on. And all she wants is normalcy and romance and a family. Having said that, I think she jumped into things with every boyfriend she's ever had. and I think she needs to take a step back and figure out who she is before another relationship.

Caroline:

Probably.

Anne:

Yeah. more about that podcast later. at least now she isn't therapy and it sounds like she has a wonderful dad who is finally stepping up and a relationship with her stepmom too, which I think is really lovely.

Caroline:

I agree.

Anne:

something funny in the show to me, it just reminded me of something funny. Do you remember in episode six they go to a diner

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

it's the first time she's like not in a wheelchair when she goes into a public place and she's like, oh, can you tell me about the soft drinks? And the waitress is like, I'm busy and so mean to her. And I was thinking about that episode of 30 Rock with John Ham when he's in the bubble. Do you remember? He's so good looking that he always gets his way

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

and he finally gets a taste of like not getting his way when people can't see how good looking he is. And I, it just reminded me of that.

Caroline:

Yes. Excellent

Anne:

Um,

Caroline:

Agree.

Anne:

Okay. you wanted, let's talk about Nick. Yuck.

Caroline:

Okay. So Nick is the place I have the hardest time distinguishing between the right slant, And of course, right? Every story has three sides, your side, their side and the truth or whatever. But this. Show was very sympathetic to Nick. Gypsy's family is not sympathetic to Nick, but Nick's family, of course, is sympathetic to Nick. I that he was an adult who wasn't medically abused, but is definitely has mental health issues. I understand that he was watching porn in a McDonald's for nine hours, and that is not a misunderstanding, but does that make him violent or just a pervert? I don't know. Of course, like 20 minutes ago we were talking about escalating behavior, so

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

that could be escalating behavior, but it's quite a jump to go from, touching yourself in a McDonald's to murdering someone. I do know that. There was talk about him raping Didi. and of course that's inexcusable in any context. I can't help but wonder if I loved someone who was being abused this way, would I not also want to do something about it? Would I be able to stab someone to

Anne:

Mm.

Caroline:

Doubtful. but if I was mentally delayed and a different person, I don't know, maybe it wouldn't necessarily mean I was evil. What, what do you think of Nick?

Anne:

well, in the interview I listened to Gypsy Places, a lot of blame on him. I understand why she felt desperate and she points out like he did it, but she didn't stab anybody, stabbing somebody 17 times. That's not a normal thing to be able to do. And she points out that, you know, some other online boyfriend who she might have made the same suggestion to would've been like, fuck no, let's call the police. I'll come get you right now. We have options. And he didn't do that. Right? is he a victim of Gypsy? Would he have done it without her? Probably not. Right?

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

He was a creep, as you mentioned, the masturbation in McDonald's, but no history of violence. Would she have done it without him? Probably not, right? Like they're just these two unfortunate souls, this bad combo, it came into each other's orbit and enabled each other's worse impulses, rather than deescalating them

Caroline:

Yeah. Like a.

Anne:

a fta. Yeah, I mean, in the show, Nick is portrayed as doing it as, because he felt it was the right call to protect the woman he loved. They're swept up in this romance of the damsel and distress and the night and shining armor dynamic. You know, they're like Romeo and Juliet if they killed their parents instead of each other, and that's how they see themselves. Um, but yeah, I think they kind of portray him as almost sweet, right? He's more socially awkward than evil. You know? It's this fine line between being really kind of gross and icky and just kind of sweet and clueless, like the way it's portrayed and the way Gypsy talks about him. And, you know, outside of the act, he was worse in real life. Like the, you know, wanting to rape Didi, she says he was abusive in the interview I heard that, that he was into this BDSM, that he thought he was a vampire. You know, this guy's no Prince, even though he was playing the part of one.

Caroline:

but I mean BDSM, you know, I'm not, you know, like if you're into it, you're into it. It

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

consensual. Um, and I do believe that she wouldn't have had any idea of what she was into or not into at that time because She was, you know, so it experienced.

Anne:

said she was doing that because that's what he wanted and she didn't know any better, but she wasn't actually into anything like that.

Caroline:

But to be fair, just on the BDSM side of things, like him being into a kink, and she's not into a kink, but she tells him she's into the kink, like, how's he gonna know? You know?

Anne:

Yeah, that's his fault. Yeah. Um, I did feel really bad for him in the act in the pizza scene when he's like trying to make the pizza and he keeps dropping them.

Caroline:

yeah. I.

Anne:

And I was like, oh my gosh. And I was waiting for his manager to be like, you idiot. And he was so nice to him. I was like, oh yeah.

Caroline:

Yeah. The manager was so nice.

Anne:

So Nice. Um, can I just point out that the actor playing him is Alex Trimboli from American Vandal. Did you catch that?

Caroline:

No. Oh

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

vandal is So good.

Anne:

So good. Yes. And I was like, where do I know this guy from? And I looked it up and it was that

Caroline:

many other people, by the way, that are in other, like. the social worker is from Kevin, Ken f himself. The doctor is from the night of, uh, I mean, there were, there were a million people from all these other great shows.

Anne:

It is funny you the different things we associate these people with. So for me, the doctor is from, never have I ever, uh, Mindy Kaling show she's her mom. Have you seen that?

Caroline:

I haven't seen that?

Anne:

It's so cute. You should watch it. It's a great show. And did you see that the lawyer that Didi was trying to get the her to do like the power of attorney with is Catherine Martin from Silence of the Lambs?

Caroline:

Oh, yes, I wrote that down too. Actually. I actually think I, what I wrote down is the lawyer puts the lotion in the basket.

Anne:

Yes. Awesome.

Caroline:

Oh, and I

Anne:

Uh, it's always nice to.

Caroline:

sorry, what were you gonna say?

Anne:

You go,

Caroline:

Uh, I also, I don't know who wrote this, but I have under, under me saying Juliette Lewis Legend. wrote manitoc, like someone said Manito so wrong In this series, felt it was important to mention I like Star it.

Anne:

okay. Uh, something I missed definitely. But yes, I'm always happy to see Juliette Lewis, um, brighten my spirits. I love her in Yellow Jackets. And it was good to see Margo Martindale as well as Didi's mom. I, I've, I've loved her. I guess maybe since Dexter. She's the key line pie lady in Dexter.

Caroline:

I

Anne:

Um.

Caroline:

detective is from a movie called Hanging Up, which is like, um, Melanie Griffith is in it. No, not Melanie Griffith. Um. Meg Bryan is in it. And, um, Walter from Grumpy Old Men. It's a great movie.

Anne:

Matto.

Caroline:

Walter Matto.

Anne:

Okay. I've never seen it.

Caroline:

movie. Um,

Anne:

Yeah. A lot of, um,

Caroline:

a lot of really good.

Anne:

small roles. Yeah.

Caroline:

Agree.

Anne:

One more thing I wanted to say about Nick and Gypsy. I thought the way they portrayed Gypsy's buyer's remorse was interesting. You know, when she's like, what's wrong with you? Like, you live on pizza and donuts and, you know, I'm gonna kind of quote Arrested Development here. Um, we always say, and that's why you don't, blah, blah, blah. Right? And that's why you leave a note, and that's why you meet your online boyfriend before planning a murder with him.

Caroline:

Mm. Yeah. She was giving, I've made a huge mistake.

Anne:

Yeah, more than one arrested development quote there. And it's just, it's just such a sad life they both had like, you know, like no wonder they seek solace online where you can be whoever you wanna be. Which kind of hearkens back to our Sweet Bobby discussion, episode two, if you wanna go back and listen to that. Okay. Anything else you wanna say about Nick?

Caroline:

No, I guess, I think that's it for Nick? part.

Anne:

Let's talk about the scariest or most disturbing part. Um, I almost puked when deedee blends the pizza in episode one.

Caroline:

have that pizza and blender barf in caps.

Anne:

Oh my God. So gross. I was like, oh, pizza. And then it's like, ugh.

Caroline:

Yeah,

Anne:

Um, another scene I thought was really gross was when Gypsy was trying to help Dei cut her nails, and it reminded me of that scene in Dumb and Dumber, where the pedicures needs like an industrial sander to,

Caroline:

totally.

Anne:

to like sand down Lloyd's nails. So gross. Um, what do you think was the most disturbing part for you?

Caroline:

Um, yeah, there was that, there was, um, her pulling her teeth out was really

Anne:

Mm-hmm.

Caroline:

for me. I have a hard time with teeth stuff.

Anne:

Yeah,

Caroline:

yeah.

Anne:

I think that is my most upsetting scene too, you know, like, and that's early what, like episode two or three I think. And you know, apparently in real life the rotting teeth was more about. Unnecessary seizure medication than eating sugar. But either way, it's like the way she is crying and begging to keep her teeth, like why would you put your kid through that? Uh, having said that, watching Gypsy like hoe down on Coke and frosting is like, I love that scene. It's like super relatable. Like, oh, this is something I can do. Like when you're a kid and you have access to like the jar of Nutella or something, like, I've been there.

Caroline:

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Also, I didn't love when she was cracking her toes in that first time you see her get out of bed.

Anne:

Oh yeah, yeah. They really take their time with that to be like, Ooh, look, she can walk. Um, another part I thought was pretty disturbing was at the whatever, like ComicCon festival that she was at, that Wolverine guy gave me major. Petto vibes. Um, that actor is in American primeval and he's evil in that. So I was very uncomfortable with him because I was like, I recognize this guy and I've got bad vibes from him. But that scene where she's at his house after he's broken his nose is like so uncomfortable that I was almost actually glad Dei turned up.

Caroline:

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I also felt like Hank was kind of creepy. Like Patricia, Patricia

Anne:

Hank was creepy.

Caroline:

Like, she's pretty, like, I mean, they do their best to make her not look pretty in the show, but She is beautiful. Patricia Arquette.

Anne:

Hmm.

Caroline:

so

Anne:

sure truly is. Um,

Caroline:

blame someone for thinking she's cute, but like, take a hint buddy. You know?

Anne:

um, the movie scene when, uh, gypsy and Nick planned their romantic meeting, like Didi's instincts are. Spot on because Nick's super creepy in that scene. Like, you know, imagine if you were at a cinema, it's empty with your kid and somebody keeps sitting directly behind you. It's, you know, she was absolutely right to hate him and get away from that creep like.

Caroline:

Yeah, so quick tangent here that I'm interested for your perspective on. So there at our dog park in our town, there's a guy who up in his old school, red Mercedes. It's like a maroon Anyway, the car is irrelevant. He drives up every day and sits at dog park, and he doesn't have a dog every day. Doesn't get out of his car, just pulls up the area by the field so he can watch the dogs, sits there for a full hour. We've definitely witnessed him sipping some nips, you know, and then. And then leaves and all these people are like angry that he's there. I am angry that he drives away'cause I've just seen him drink nips at or nine in the morning and now he's driving around town. But like, do you think it's creepy to go to the dog park if you don't have a dog? Some people do.

Anne:

I used to go to the dog park without a dog, but I used to take my, when we were getting ready to have a dog, but I would show up with my kids so could, we could kind of like dog shop. It'd be like, oh, we like this kind of dog, or We like this kind of dog. But that's obviously very different. I was there, I was open, I was interacting with people and chatting, and I wasn't just watching. I mean, I wonder, I mean, it could be harmless, like maybe he's on his way so it's in the morning.

Caroline:

in the morning. and he's

Anne:

Yeah. I mean, I wonder if,

Caroline:

like.

Anne:

yeah, it's weird.

Caroline:

You know,

Anne:

I.

Caroline:

but there's other people who come, like there's a woman who comes with her kid and their dog is mean, but they like dogs, but their dog's and assholes. So they come, they don't bring their dog, but they like to like see other people's dogs. That's cute.

Anne:

Yeah, well, that's what we did. And when my daughter was about a year and a half old and I wasn't working at the time, I think, or maybe I was only working part-time, I would use, I used to walk through, through our dog park to meet my husband at the train and we'd just like stop and watch the dogs. But yeah, that's different.

Caroline:

Anyway.

Anne:

I might cut out some of this. We don't need to know all this.

Caroline:

of it, I'm interested

Anne:

Yeah,

Caroline:

people

Anne:

some of it,

Caroline:

dog park guy.

Anne:

yes. All right. So we've talked about the movie scene. Um, shall we talk about the murder itself when we're thinking about most disturbing parts, um, in terms of. The way it's shown, it didn't have the impact for me that it could have had, which is one of my criticisms. Um, I I actually texted you to be like, did I miss it?'cause it seems like they're building up to it in episode six, and then they kind of like gloss over it and then they redo it in episode eight. Um, to be honest, I thought the last few episodes kind of sucked.

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

Um, yeah, it gets, for one reason thing, it gets heavy handed with its message. Sometimes the only way out is through, you know, that DeeDee's mom is spouting and then is echoed by Mel when she visits her in prison. Um, but yeah, those last few episodes really dragged for me. What, what do you think?

Caroline:

think this happens a lot in docuseries as well, where it's like, it could have been three or four episodes instead of seven. Was it seven, eight?

Anne:

Eight.

Caroline:

Probably could have

Anne:

Yeah. It's like they're building up to this.

Caroline:

have been six.

Anne:

That's, that's what I think. It's like they're building up to this murder in episode six. They don't show it, but then they backtrack and they show us things. They've already established, like a more fleshed out version of waiting for the taxi. It's like we already saw them waiting for the taxi, you know? And it felt like they had an eight episode deal and had to fill the time, which I just think is silly. Like in the age of streaming, like stories can be as long as they need to be. You know, midnight mass was seven episodes. That's a random number, right? You don't see that in the olden days when you need to fill a time slot.

Caroline:

Although there are seven

Anne:

You know, if they were,

Caroline:

it would, that was intentional.

Anne:

Ooh, maybe that's why it must be. I do think if they were gonna have eight episodes, they should have just shown the murder in episode six, or not shown it like that. That could be a choice to not show it and just have it from Gypsy's perspective. But if they were gonna do that, I would've liked to see maybe more of like the courtroom drama aspect of it, or, you know, her figuring out the extent of her mother's lies or, you know, um, establishing that real, that relationship with her father. Like, I don't know. And again, I just didn't like the Didi backstory because it felt false to me.

Caroline:

I really, I, what I was gonna say is the exposition around deedee was unnecessary, especially because it's not even real, like it doesn't reflect

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

So if they wanted to reflect on Deedee Moore, talk about how much she sucked because her family is happy to tell you, you know?

Anne:

Yeah. Um, one question I had, they sh have all that screaming, right?

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

And if it actually went down like that with, with Didi screaming for like a minute, you know, wouldn't people have heard like there's no trees in between those houses, right? Like there's nothing to muffle sound. So I feel like the neighbors would've heard that must not have happened like that.

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

Um, apparently they did have sex after, um, gypsy says she said he could rape her because she didn't want him raping her mom. So that's, if that is actually how it went down, that's pretty awful. Um, I did listen to there's, I feel it kind of gross admitting to this, but I listened to this podcast about half of it, that is his police interrogation and he does talk about having sex after. Um, I did feel very voyeuristic and turned it off around there, but, um, what little of the interrogation scene that they show was like kind of line for line, word for word of the actual interrogation. Um. Yeah. And it was interesting to see, like the police officer who's the detective who's interrogating him, is like, okay, tell me your story. And she's like, so open and kind of nice and, and kind of, you know, being like, okay, yeah. So yeah, that sounds good. Okay, cool. And then she's like, you know what? I know you love Gypsy. And guess what? She's already told us what happened, so don't let her go down for it. You know, if you love her, um, tell the truth. And he just like immediately caves, which kind of speaks to his intellect, I guess.

Caroline:

and I do think this is an important time for us to reiterate. Police are allowed to lie to you. So your

Anne:

Mm-hmm.

Caroline:

you say is lawyer. I wrote down their question without counsel. If he really has such a low mental capacity and she has, you know, the education of a minor, that's grounds for mistrial in my mind. You know, like I,

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

if he clinically, which leads me to believe that he probably doesn't clinically have such a delayed developmental capacity.'cause you could easily argue that he should not have been spoken to without, although, know, um. Brendan Gas, um, Brendan Dasey is still in jail, so who knows?

Anne:

Mm. Yeah. Um, can I just say that if Gypsy was going to plan a murder, she should have watched more true crime than Disney Princess movies because her plan was so dumb, right? Like, so naive. You know, like that insane Facebook message she put up, you know, to make sure her mother's body was found. And then all those texts is proof, like they were really bad at planning a murder.

Caroline:

texts mailing the knife. I mean, he said she had that envelope ready at the house to mail the knife. Like,

Anne:

That's not a good plan. Like just get rid of the knife.

Caroline:

a good

Anne:

Like just, I dunno.

Caroline:

so many miles

Anne:

Um.

Caroline:

Missouri and Wisconsin. Like just drop it somewhere in between.

Anne:

Pull over,

Caroline:

I don't know.

Anne:

throw it on a lake.

Caroline:

Right.

Anne:

Okay. So we should probably stop giving murderers advice, but Yeah.

Caroline:

And true crime obsessed. They say Stay su, stay stupid.

Anne:

Yeah. Um, let's see. Do we have any unanswered questions that we haven't discussed?

Caroline:

Um, sorry, let me just look back. No, do you, well,

Anne:

Yeah, probably. I'm looking back to

Caroline:

I said did she even tie her to the bed? know, so whether she was

Anne:

Yep.

Caroline:

was

Anne:

We talked about that.

Caroline:

of mine as well. Um,

Anne:

Um. Okay. I found my question section. I've got a bunch.

Caroline:

I.

Anne:

Was there a neighbor who saw through the bullshit because somebody called CPS, right? Or did that really happen? I dunno.

Caroline:

I looked up, there was a doctor, there was a doctor who contacted CPS much like in the series, it's the woman doctor from the night of who's also from the Mindy Kaling show. You said, who calls CPS uh, mommy Dead and Dearest. There's a male doctor who was sort of like, I could just write on my chart. You know, sort of what I thought. Um, so I don't know. I mean, certainly the family knew, but they were nowhere

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

so,

Anne:

Another question I had was, I wonder if Gypsy went through withdrawal from the medicine she was on. You know, like, I think it's implied in the show. Like at one point she just like asked for medicine and that could just be a, you know, emotional habit as opposed to a physical dependency. But, you know, I would bet if she had, was taken all sorts of stuff that there would be some withdrawal.

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

And another question I had was the voice. You know, why is her voice so high? You know, is this just a res like a response to the infantilization that she is experiencing? You know, like that she's something that whether she's consciously or subconsciously manipulating her voice and then it became real. Like in Heaven's Gate, do you remember, uh, was it Frank in Heaven's Gate? Do you rem do you remember the guy who has the weird voice?

Caroline:

Yes.

Anne:

And that's absolutely an emotional response because he was an adult and his voice was normal. And you know, he responded to his cult leader's shame, and now his voice is still, you know, something wrong with it.

Caroline:

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And of

Anne:

Um,

Caroline:

Katrina question, like whether that really happened to them or not. I'm curious about, you know, there was such a manipulative moment with withholding the teeth and then giving it to her at a moment to make her sort of perform for her in the way that she wanted, withholding the, the replacement teeth or whatever. Like, I wonder how many of those types of things would've occurred other than just the intimidation was there some of this other, you should be grateful to me, type of tactics that were used.

Anne:

Yeah. Well, I mean that she gave her the teeth right before she's going on to be like a child of the year. Right.

Caroline:

Which she didn't wanna do.

Anne:

And that's, yeah, and that's another question I have is how did she get those awards? How did, like for example, I have a son with, I, I have a child with hearing loss and you know, there's certain government benefits that I've been able to access every single time I apply for something. I have to provide that audiogram, right? Like I have to provide results. I can't just be like, oh yeah, he has this thing. Right? So how did she get those things? How did no one do their due diligence and check?

Caroline:

Well, Yeah, I mean, I think she played the system really well. You know, because. A lot of these things are mother reports. Mother reports, like parent reports. That's, um, a thing you would see often in these types of cases. And things that aren't as cut and dry as hearing loss or for things that you are producing those symptoms like, you know, which she

Anne:

yeah,

Caroline:

Um, that must be how, I guess I don't totally understand how Gypsy was confused about her age.'cause I do feel like you would know the year you were born, like, I can't even tell you how long I've known

Anne:

yeah. But if you,

Caroline:

ET came out the year I was born. You know, like

Anne:

yeah, but if you start telling somebody at age, say five or six, that they were born later, they would've, you know, like it depends on when she was first told her age. Right.

Caroline:

Yeah. I guess. But aren't you constantly to asked how old you are? You know, like as a child growing up, you're constantly asked. are you? You know? Would you really lose track of

Anne:

Yeah. But then she took her away from her family.

Caroline:

Yeah. that's

Anne:

Yeah. I don't know. I, I feel like everything that happens before five and six

Caroline:

Hmm.

Anne:

is weird, right? Like you lose it. Right. In terms of our memory. So if she just kind of start suddenly started telling her at age five, actually year two, you know, like, I don't know, like at some point

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

she would've just forgotten, I guess. And, and again, like how does, in terms of acceptance of Didi's story, how does a doctor just accept a claim of leukemia or muscular dystrophy without tests or records? Like the system clearly failed. And again, there's that Bernardo Plaster Stein who did identify her as being most likely munchhouse by proxy. Like he says, the mother's not a good historian, but he. Didn't have enough to alert CPS and he regrets it. And, but it sounds like he's the only one that, you know, noticed anything. And that seems crazy. But they do say that as soon as he was kind of making noises about not trusting her, deedee was just like, oh, another, another hospital. Right.

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

So

Caroline:

And I do think

Anne:

I think this ties into themes of a

Caroline:

Sorry to talk

Anne:

Hmm. Which is a, probably something that would be less likely to happen now as systems talk to each other. Right. And more medical records are online. It's not just a piece of paper. Right. I think this ties into themes of atonement we've been discussing. You know, like having something cross your desk and not take action. Like in Spotlight, you know, we talked about Jerry Sandusky and the priests who weren't guilty of sexual assault knew about it and didn't do anything. So there's a lesson here about. If you know something or you su suspect something, you know, take the right steps. But having said that, reporting somebody to CPS and potentially getting a child taken away is a problem too. And there's a documentary I haven't seen yet, but it's, uh, called Taking Care of Maya. Maya.

Caroline:

of Maya.

Anne:

Um, so I, yeah. Have you seen it?

Caroline:

No, but it's in my, um, recommendations section. I'm

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

that actually when we get there.

Anne:

Okay. So it's a tough situation to be in, to suspect something, but not be sure, um, you know, as a teacher, if you suspect something you like have to report it up the chain and then it's outta your hands. Right? It's like, okay, you tell it principal and at least where we are, and then they go forward and then it's like, well, I've done what I need to do. But yeah, I understand. I've, I've had to, you know, do some mandatory reporting in my past and it's tough. Right. I get it. And how you wanna give people the benefit of the doubt. Um, let's see. And also doctors are busy, like they don't have time to play detective, right?

Caroline:

Yeah. I also meant to look up, sorry, in unanswered questions. This is a slightly less serious, although not tremendously So, which Star Wars movie was coming out that you wanted to see so badly?

Anne:

so 2015, was it the force awakens,

Caroline:

have

Anne:

the other ones must have already been out, right?

Caroline:

it must have been the

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

I can see why she wanted to see that.

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

exciting times.

Anne:

Um, I don't think I have any other questions. Um, so let's talk about the deeper horrors beneath the surface. You know, we've already talked about people not noticing, right? The doctors who might have been suspicious but didn't say anything. Um. Gypsy's now advocating for more education for doctors so they know what to look for. Um, and you know, like, yeah, just, there's a line in the Buzzfeed article that says, you know, talks about how Didi convinced doctors to perform surgery. And it says that DEI insisted and doctors dutifully operated on her. And I think that's just so harrowing. Like, I'm not a doctor. I don't know what it likes, what it's like to be in that situation, but it really just blows my mind that surgery would happen. And, you know, my father is a doc. My father-in-law is a doctor, and he's so anti invasive. Like we always joke about how his advice is take a Panadol, which is a Tylenol, and lie down,

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

Like, that's what he says to do, no matter what happens, right? So operating on someone without proof it's necessary is really mind boggling to me.

Caroline:

Yeah, I. think for me, some of the manipulation tactics were quite awful. Like when, um, in episode four, Didi sort of fakes a sudden health issue, a sudden health scare in order to. Get Gypsy rose to agree to the power of attorney. Now we don't know. We know that the power of attorney did happen. We don't know the circumstances which they happened, but in, in this, she, she says she ha her blood sugar's like 72 and Gypsy Rose is like, I have no idea is that bad. And Deedee answers that. It is bad, but when I was Googling like 70 is kind of normal. I think so, I think she just

Anne:

Yeah, I.

Caroline:

the number was bad even though it wasn't bad. I,

Anne:

Mm,

Caroline:

you

Anne:

yeah.

Caroline:

which is so manipulative. And then, you know, the things that she supposedly learns, like there's a moment, um, in episode three when Gypsy Rose says, you don't have to tell them everything when you're in pain. Like you don't have to be honest if you're in pain. Like you

Anne:

Mm.

Caroline:

them that you've been drinking to the Logan Guy. You know,

Anne:

Which guy?

Caroline:

the

Anne:

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

Caroline:

To the Logan

Anne:

yeah.

Caroline:

Um, so some of

Anne:

Which is, I think that's all, uh, a fabrication, right? Like that didn't happen. I mean, I know she did go to a man's house, but like that whole broken nose thing, right? That was, uh, the show manipulating us in a certain way.

Caroline:

absolutely. But I, I guess like, yeah, I more so mean like the messages that these minds send or that these like scenes convey. I do

Anne:

Mm-hmm.

Caroline:

what could have been going on re in reality, you know?

Anne:

Yeah. Well, I think that brings us up to another deeper horror is the trauma of having a narcissistic parent.

Caroline:

Hmm.

Anne:

Right. That and the ongoing trauma from that, you know, and that, that is no over for Gypsy,

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

Like she still has to deal with the way she was brought up. And that brings me, it was, sorry, was there anything you wanted to say about that? Um, you know. There's, I've, I mentioned some Reddit threats, some, I can't say Reddit threats, Reddit thread. There's been some Reddit threads criticizing her behavior. But I mean, how could anyone expect her to behave in a way we consider normal? Like she was abused and isolated through her developmental years and then she went to jail, right? Like that's not normal either. You know, I think I've mentioned the book, the Boy who was raised as a dog before to talk about the impact of childhood trauma and it's really bad and it's not easily overcome. And I think that brings me to another deeper horror, which is the culture of celebrity that Gypsy Rose is now, you know, involved in.

Caroline:

So true.

Anne:

You know, she got outta prison and she had millions of followers on TikTok. Right. Which was probably not great for her in a way. I was, I mentioned this interview on the v all files, uh, which I think, you know, she was released in December, 2023, and this was early January, 2024. So she'd been out a matter of weeks and she'd already been on the View, the Today Show. She was a TikTok star. And there was something very uncomfortable about this interview, the way they're discussing their relationship because, and people are even calling in for relationship advice and they're responding like they're this old married couple whose relationship has stood the test of time when in fact they've known each other for two years. And almost that entire time she was in prisons, they weren't actually living together. They'd been married for a year and they'd only been tru, truly together for a week or two. So massive honeymoon period. And you know, lo and behold, a few months later they're filing for divorce. So. I hope that, and I, and she's not on social media anymore, it sounds like, like she's gone private there. So I think that's really good. And I hope she's getting the help she needs and, you know, getting away from that microscope she's under.

Caroline:

Yeah. Talk about exploitative.

Anne:

Yeah. Um, other impacts of Munchausen's by proxy. You know, gypsy got out, we raised the question earlier, how many children die? And we never even know because what better way for a narcissist to get attention is to be the parent of a dead child, as you said, you know, there's stories of people killing their kids with salt, adding fecal matter to IVs, but in addition to the impact on these poor, poor children, like you're wasting doctors' time, right? And unnecessary surgeries and procedures, you know, raise insurance for everybody, make it harder on doctors. And then you've got these Disney trips and the Habitat for Humanity House and the free stuff, the awards. And someone who was actually sick didn't get those things because Gypsy did.

Caroline:

Yeah, I think about that a lot in sama like,'cause there's in that series, which I'm sure we are definitely gonna get to, there's fundraisers where there's people really suffering with things and some of the money goes to her, you know? But also on the medical

Anne:

yeah,

Caroline:

they're not just, you know, abusing resources, but skewing research, you know, skewing statistics with data, you know, which is detrimental to everyone

Anne:

yeah. In the stuff you should know, episode they talk about how this impacted, um, research on sudden infant death syndrome

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

because there was somebody who more than likely had munch husband's by proxy who all her children died. And sh it was blamed on sids, but it was actually her or something. So,

Caroline:

Yeah, there's

Anne:

yeah. So yeah.

Caroline:

that they use, like mitochondrial disease and stuff like that, that, you know, it's only getting harder to identify because so many people utilize it this.

Anne:

Um, also it's deeply disrespectful to people who actually have a child who's suffering from a disease. Like, and I think one of the reasons I think the show chose to include the character Hank, I keep calling him Hank, I dunno what his real name on the show was, was because he had lost a child to cancer, I think. So they included him as a, to show somebody who is actually grieving as a contrast to Didi who was faking it.

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

So it's just, again, it's so messed up because it impacts people who are actually sick too. Um, one other deeper horror is. Perhaps being raised on fairytales. You know, if she hadn't been raised on Disney movies, maybe she would've looked beyond the first knight in Shining Armor who came into her life as her narrative for getting out.

Caroline:

Hmm. I don't know. I'm never gonna object to being raised by TV and movies.

Anne:

Yeah. But I'm just saying have some alternative perspectives with some strong women in there. Right.

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

As opposed to, you know, women who are just waiting to be saved

Caroline:

Roseanne in there. No better husband out there than Dan Connor. We're talking about the show Roseanne in the

Anne:

is,

Caroline:

Not Roseanne Barr today. Just

Anne:

yes. I was gonna say she's gotten a bit problematic.

Caroline:

Yeah. Forget the real person. Roseanne from the nineties that

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

I.

Anne:

Um, do we have any survival advice from this?

Caroline:

Oh God. Um, no, I,

Anne:

I guess this isn't survival, but like, don't murder people. Talk to somebody.

Caroline:

but I mean, I, I, I know I'm, I'm such a pessimist generally. I don't think that if she had talked, I just don't believe that even if she had tried, she would've gotten out. I think she would've died. I do.

Anne:

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, I'm gonna just say as a piece of advice, meet your online boyfriend before two years go by.'cause you might find out he sucks

Caroline:

We

Anne:

before you, you know, make

Caroline:

Bobby as well.

Anne:

big plans with him. Absolutely.

Caroline:

not

Anne:

did she go? Eight years now? Yeah. All right. Do you have a pal cleanser?

Caroline:

Yeah, so I know we're in the whole podcaster, time warp situation, but currently on TikTok, there has been this beautiful trend people the song from the end of Hamilton, the Alexandra, go back to sleep. I have an early meeting out of town and people are like dressing up like Hamilton, putting the whole beer in a mustache on, and then climbing out their window, like reenacting this. And I am, it's just bringing, it's my entire for you page. And then when I look at other creators or you know, podcast levels, celebrities that I follow, it's all over theirs as well. And everyone's all just, it's just bringing I, and I just, that's what tiktoks about for me. Collective joy, you know? And so,

Anne:

Sounds adorable. I love Hamilton humor.

Caroline:

it's good.

Anne:

Do you have any recommendations?

Caroline:

Yes. Okay. So, um, the, my number one recommendation, sorry, I'm having trouble deciding which should be my number one recommendation. So selfishly, my number one recommendation is the podcast Wine and Crime. Episode six is on Munchausen's. It is the episode that I have shared with many a friend to get them into that podcast. It is very early on into the podcast. Some of the volume and levels are, uh, not great, but it is my absolute favorite episode and just very entertaining. It is a true crime comedy podcast. So if that's not a genre you're into, then skip it. Um, if you're more the Annie type and you're interested in bettering yourself, you're not just silly me. Um, there is a great podcast out there called, nobody Should Believe Me. Um, the author, uh, oh gosh, I had it up before and I've lost it, but nobody should believe me. The, um, the Podcaster's sister, is someone whose children had been removed from her care twice and then returned to her. is, um, you know, her sister, uh, suffers from, or is diagnosed with Munchausen's by proxy or suspected of, but her children keep getting returned to her. And so she's sort of made it her life's work to, um. Expose a lot of the ways that this can come about a lot of cases. So I think it's on season. Gosh, I don't even remember. I binged all of it since we this topic back in mind and it's, it's really great. Um, she also has a bunch of books, um, sorry, can we pause for a second?'cause I had all of this up here, but then I googled to see if you're wrong about how to munchausen's episodes. So Hold on one second. Um, nobody should,

Anne:

I can just cut this so we don't have to pause. Just

Caroline:

Let me just start over with, nobody should believe me. Okay. So. Nobody should believe me. Uh, the, the, um, star or whatever the creator Andrea Dunlop is, um, her sister has been, had her children remove, removed from her care twice, um, under suspicion of Munch's by proxy. Um, she is now on, um, season six of her show. So she covers a different munch munchausen's by proxy or medical child abuse parent every season. She's talked to a

Anne:

Wow. There must be a lot then

Caroline:

a lot. I

Anne:

I.

Caroline:

there's, it, it's been, I've binged it, it's incredible. She also has a bunch of books out on all of these different stories, um, that you should check out. Again, the, the author is Andrea Dunlop. So if you look up, she, I think she has like six books out as well, all on this topic. So, um. Highly, highly recommend that, um, take care of Maya. Um, is a documentary that you've mentioned. Um, I think it's a docuseries. Um, I have not watched it and when I went to research it, because they referenced the Kowalski case, Maya Kowalski is her name. mentioned it a lot in this podcast. Nobody should believe me. They do cover it in a couple episodes that I skipped. And I guess they're, they're sort of putting into question validity, whereas the documentary and the court of public opinion has definitely been sympathetic to the parents. Um, but it doesn't sound like this author or the experts around her believe the parents. So I thought that was interesting. Um, so those are, are sort of the closest recommendations I would have. And then also if you're interested in people who, um. I if you're interested in this whole sort of question of what, what do you believe or how do you believe what, what may or may not be of the victim of a situation. The curious case of Natalia Grace is an interesting series to sort of go through where you go back and forth between, is this person a mastermind? Are they suffering from a situation, you know, where they are actually the victim, et cetera. Um, I wouldn't recommend watching the, um, miniseries about it, but rather the documentaries. Um, and then also if you're interested in people who fake illness for sympathy, there's apple cider vinegar, there's sama, um, there's a whole bunch of people who. mean, there's even inventing an, like a bunch of people who just commit fraud for attention. there's certainly no shortage of series on those. And then, as you mentioned, um, what they do in the shadows, sorry, as you mentioned, energy vampires. I wanted to mention we do in the shadows.

Anne:

I think we need to consider mean girls and what we do in the shadows. Just ongoing recommendations. Yeah. Always, always watch them.

Caroline:

Agree.

Anne:

Is that

Caroline:

That's

Anne:

any others?

Caroline:

it.

Anne:

That's it. Okay. Uh, I also want to recommend a, a true crime comedy podcast. My favorite murder, episode 47, live at the Bellhouse covers this. I mean, if you've seen the act and you've listened to this, you know, everything they talk about. But, you know, they have a, a fun approach and it was fun to go back and listen to them because I haven't listened to them much lately. And, um, you know, I always credit them with being the ones who made me feel like I wasn't a weirdo for being drawn to darkness. And you know how, um, I have been listening to last podcast on the left for almost every episode. I. I've listened to something. Well, I wasn't, I didn't listen to last podcast on left, but guess who was the guest speaker

Caroline:

No,

Anne:

this episode of My Favorite Murder? The last podcast on Left guys. Yeah.

Caroline:

recommends them constantly. That's why I always think I

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

it more than I do when I actually try to listen.

Anne:

I guess I just can't get away from them.

Caroline:

Yeah. They're circling you.

Anne:

Well, as we obviously said, the documentary Mommy Dead and Dearest, if you want a more factual Approach. And this one was sanctioned by Gypsy Rose. Um, I mentioned the podcast, the Vial Files. Um, it's a early January 20, 24 episode. There's a horror movie called Run about a girl confined to a wheelchair who realizes that perhaps her mother has not been honest with her. Sarah Paulson is in it, and, um, she's fantastic. So I recommend that, um, if you are looking for more. Bad mothers, uh, mother Golf Entangled, uh, gypsy mentions that that was a movie that she really loved, and I can see the comparisons are really, you know, apt. Uh, also Sharp Objects, the book and the show, Jessica Lang as constants in American Horror Story, the Early seasons, Lucille Bluth in Arrested Development and, uh, for bad caretakers. I recommend both the movie and the book Misery. So good. We'll have to cover it at some point. Uh, if you wanna see Joey King, the actress who played Gypsy Rose, she's in The Conjuring when she's really little, so that's another horror movie that you might wanna revisit if you want more. Patricia Arquettes, we mentioned Severance, but she's also in Stigmata, which was I guess a nineties horror movie. That was pretty good. Pretty good possession, horror. Gotta go back and watch American Vandal. With the, to see Alex Trimboli, the actor who plays Nick Chloe s also in some horror American psycho Zodiac bones and all, which is about cannibalism, um, kids. Yeah, I haven't read it, but Gypsy Rose has a memoir called My Time to Stand, so that might be something you wanna check out. Also, did you notice that, that the motel room that Gypsy and Nick are staying at, the room number is room 2 37?

Caroline:

No.

Anne:

Does that ring a bell to you?

Caroline:

yeah, it does.

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

2, 3, 7.

Anne:

So yeah, so obviously this was a shining reference, right? So I was just like, oh, oh, oh. I was like Leonard DiCaprio, you know that meme where he like points out the tv? That was me when I saw the 37.

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

Um, if you're looking for.

Caroline:

Also bad moms. Mommy dearest.

Anne:

Yeah. Yeah. Uh, definitely that one too. If you wanna see my favorite narcissist. Uh, watch 30 Rock for Jenna Marone. She's very funny. If you want a more humorous approach to it. Uh, that's all I have. Is there anything else you wanna talk about?

Caroline:

I thought you were

Anne:

I

Caroline:

say My favorite narcissist is like a show or a podcast and I would absolutely watch that.

Anne:

it should be let's, uh, copyright that.

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

Yeah. When we expand our podcast network, we will start my favorite narcissist.

Caroline:

have a Patreon,

Anne:

right.

Caroline:

that's, we're gonna have some special episodes. Your

Anne:

Yes, we should definitely do that. Okay. Your homework assignment. Uh, the first time I ever knew that Munchausen's by proxy was a thing that could happen was watching M Knight, SHA Milan's the Sixth Sense. So that is our next. Our, our next episode will be about that and coming up after that, we've already talked about this, but Catch and Kill and Patricia Arquette was a Weinstein victim, so there's a connection there too. So the sixth sense and start reading Catch and Kill if you haven't already. Okay. Thanks for listening. Please do all the things podcasters ask you to do, like and subscribe. Follow us on Instagram or Facebook. Tell a friend, write a re write a review on iTunes. You can email us at Drawn to Darkness pod@gmail.com. And if like Shirley Jackson, you delight in what you fear. Join us in two weeks here at Drawn to Darkness, US Special Shadow to Nancy Ano who painted our cover art. You can find her on Instagram at Nancy ano and to Harry Kid for our intro and outro music. You can find him on Spotify and on Instagram at Harry J. Kidd. Okay, we did it.

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