8 - Jaws

Would you have gone back for a bigger boat? Then join us on Drawn to Darkness for our summer special. This week we celebrate the 50th anniversary of the movie that made people afraid to step into the ocean—and sometimes even a pool or a bath. That’s right, we’re diving into Jaws, Steven Spielberg’s 1975 man-versus-monster masterpiece.

Spoiler & Trigger Warning: 

This episode contains discussion of implied dog death (though we have a theory that Pippit lived), on-screen gore, severed limbs, and the death of a child. We also spoil key plot details from Jaws. C'mon, it's fifty years old. Watch it already.

Episode Synopsis

Half a century on, Jaws still holds its grip on audiences, and on our primal fear of what lurks in the water. In this episode, we revisit Bruce, the mechanical shark that broke down, the shoot that gave a 26-year-old Spielberg near-PTSD, and the story of an island community choosing profit over safety. We unpack why Jaws is both a comfort movie and a terror, and how it helped launch the blockbuster era while cementing John Williams’s two-note score as an instant anxiety trigger.

From Chrissy’s harrowing night swim to the USS Indianapolis speech, from small-town politics to the shark’s final “smile you son of a —” showdown with Chief Brody, we explore the craft, the cultural impact, and the deeper horrors beneath the surface—corruption, denial, and the villainisation of sharks. Expect personal beach stories (one of used to play Chrissy Watkins' death on the beach), discussions about whether Jaws counts as horror, and affectionate deep-dives into our love for Brody, Hooper, Quint, Ellen, and every scene-stealing side character (yes, even Mrs. Taft and that guy who pushed children underwater to escape a fake shark).

Palate Cleanser

Apple TV’s The Studio — a funny, meta, star-packed celebration of cinema featuring Seth Rogen, Catherine O’Hara, Kathryn Hahn, and Bryan Cranston.

Recommendations:

Podcasts:

• Unspooled — their Jaws episode and the How Did This Get Made? episode on Jaws: The Revenge and Deep Blue Sea
• The Dollop episode 210 “New Jersey Shark Attacks” with the hosts of My Favorite Murder Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
• Beyond Jaws — a podcast where real-life marine biologists discuss sharks, science, and cinema
• Let’s Jaws for a Minute — a deep dive podcast dissecting Jaws one minute at a time

Movies, TV shows, books and more:

• All the shark movies! Deep Blue Sea, The Meg, The Shallows, Open Water, The Reef, Sharknado, Crawl. 
• From Russia with Love (for a very different Robert Shaw)
• Hot Fuzz — outsider cop vs. small-town corruption
• Midnight Mass - watch it then listen to episode 7 of Drawn to Darkness 
• Moby-Dick by Herman Melville
• I Survived the Shark Attacks of 1916 by Lauren Tarshis
• The Lady of the Dunes documentary (case recently solved)
• The daily jaws website

Homework Assignment

Next episode: Heaven’s Gate: The Cult of Cults (HBO Max) — watch ahead so you can join us for the discussion. After that: Carrie, the novel by Stephen King. Longer-term: read Catch and Kill by Ronan Farrow (because the cover-up is the crime, or at least part of it).

Special thanks to Nancy Azano for our cover art (Instagram: @nancyazano) and Harry Kidd for composing our opening score  on spotify and Instagram:

Transcript

0:10

Welcome back to John the Darkness, a biweekly podcast where we discuss our favorite horror and true crime. If you would've gone back for a bigger boat, we're here for you. My name is Annie and I'll be introducing Caroline to my favorite horror movies, podcast, TV shows and books,

Caroline: 0:25

And my name is Caroline, and I'll be doing the same from the true crime side of things.

0:29

so I have a question for you. Would you ever go in a shark cage, like do a shark dive, anything like that? I assume this is more for the benefit of our listeners and rhetorical, as you know, I'm afraid of the ocean period, so that's a big hell no. Never. Never, never. Yeah, I don't think I would either. For me, this is in the Ouija board category. I would never do it. I do not go in the ocean, am afraid of the ocean. My main issue with the ocean is that nobody on Earth knows what's in there, and that is just, I just don't know why you would bother. I have gone snorkeling once on my honeymoon. We went to French Polynesia. The water is very, very clear. I am not afraid when the water is clear. I don't know whether I prefer murky or clear water. Would it be better to see it and know it's coming and be able to do nothing about it or just get shocked? I don't know. It's a good question. It surprises me that my response would be to see, but I think the whole time that I can't see, I'm just like, what am I not seeing? Do you have problems in the lake? No, because everyone knows what's in there. Nobody. Nobody knows what's in the ocean. That's true. They discuss that in the meg. There's so much unknown. Well, the reason we're talking about all this shark stuff, dark water, murky water, is that we are, as we said last week, covering jaws. This episode's sort of in response to midnight mass, which we mentioned at the time is in conversation with Jaws. Also because it's 50th anniversary and sort of because people just love Jaws. So hopefully the podcast on Jaws market is not completely saturated because here we go. Before we start, I want to give a spoiler and trigger warning in terms of triggers. A dog death is implied, but it's not on screen. There's a lot of blood Gore severed limbs. It's a shark movie. Also, grief. There's a very sad child death, and of course, as usual, we will be spoiling jaws. So if you somehow missed it over the last 50 years, go watch it. Come back. Here we go. Jaws infamous for going over budget and schedule a malfunctioning mechanical shark on and offscreen tension between the actors. And according to a documentary I recently watched, basically Giving Poor Baby 26-year-old Steven Spielberg, PTSD is a man versus monster story about a great witch shark that decides it's going to camp out in the waters of Amity Island, a New England beach community reliant on tourism. When Chrissy Watkins is killed during a night swim, chief Martin Brody, an outsider from New York, wants to close the beaches to protect the people of Amity, but the island leadership colludes to prioritize economy over safety despite more attacks, the death of a little boy, a dog, and a local fisherman. Mayor Larry Vaughn is determined to keep the beaches open for the 4th of July, resulting in a heavily witnessed attack where Chief Brody's son could very easily have been the victim. Brody joins forces with Matt Hooper, a young marine biologist who loves sharks and Captain Quint, a fisherman with a dark past to catch and kill the head, the tail, the whole damn thing. But not everyone will survive with an iconic score by John Williams. Special effects that still hold up today. Jaws has gone down in history as the first summer blockbuster and made a lot of people think twice about going in the ocean and sometimes even a pool or a bath. Caroline, what adjective would you use to describe jaws? So I was thinking about this a lot because to be honest, the first thing that comes to my mind is comfortable. I was so excited to watch it again. It felt like home for the material. All I had to say were very like warm and cozy adjectives because I think of my personal relationship with the movie. Yeah, it's a comfort movie. Absolutely. I would describe it as iconic, impactful, and to quote Mary Poppins practically perfect in every way. Mm-hmm. In our upcoming carry episode, which we've actually already recorded, but we'll end up releasing after this, we talk about how if Carrie hadn't made it all these iconics, Stephen King things we wouldn't have. And I think it's similar with Jaws because. Spielberg was 26 years old, untested. I mean, he'd had a few movies, but they didn't have the impact this hit had. If this hadn't succeeded, if he hadn't been given this film to direct, imagine all the things we might not have. Like if he hadn't rocketed to fame, we wouldn't have maybe sch, there's List and ET and Jurassic Park. All the amazing things that he's gone on to do. My life would be significantly worse if Jurassic Park didn't exist. Yeah. I mean, you, among the many, have you seen the 50th anniversary documentary that just came out? Tell me about it. It's good. There was one story, it practically made my daughter cry. We were watching it, ed, he says that when the movie was over, when they finished shooting, he had like a panic attack that night. He thought he was gonna die, and then for years after on the Universal set, have you ever been to Universal Studios with the tour? Yeah. You can see Bruce. He said he used to go and sit in the orca on the tour when people were going through and cry. It is just like saddest thing, such a bittersweet thing because it launched him. It's a success. He's known for it, but it also, he has so much trauma from it because it, you know, it went over budget the whole time because he wasn't an established director at the time. He thought he was gonna get fired the whole time. There was all this conflict with Peter Benchley, who understandably was pissed that his novel was getting denigrated in such a way. I mean, deservedly so. But you know, it was such a traumatic experience for him. Yeah. And he, he thought the crew hated him to the point that he wasn't there the last day of filming. Right. And then he made that sort of his thing. Yeah, he, he ducked out'cause he didn't wanna get dunked. Yeah. In the water. Which could have been friendly, I mean. It could have been, but Yeah. I mean, but I guess if he's got the bad vibes, totally. I mean, it is nice to hear these stories of these legends, even though they're horrible things that they went through or whatever, but you always hear this like, I thought I was screwed. And that's the moment when their trajectory occurs. John Williams, who was not known for much before this in terms of a score, and it's probably the most famous score I can imagine, you know, behind maybe Star Wars, which is also him. Oh, they're so good. They talk about that in the documentary as well, that Spielberg actually thought he was, yeah. The first time he just said it was a duh. Mm-hmm. It's so iconic and it's so good, and just anytime I hear it, it gets my heart racing. Mm-hmm. Just those two notes and the way it. Speeds up and it mirrors the relentlessness of that moment when the shark is going in for the kill. And I think in this documentary, John Williams talks about how he used it to condition the audience, which is something I'd never noticed. Hmm. In the first half of the movie. You know, when we're in Amity, he uses that sound consistently every time the shark comes up. Right. We know the shark's coming when we hear that, but then in one of the best jump scares of all time, when Brody's chumming and he's got the cigarette hanging out of his mouth and the shark comes up, there's no music in that. Yeah. And that was deliberate. And I just love that idea of that intentionality. That Williams had. God, that is beautiful. That gave me the chills. I am so impressed by composers because like if somebody told, tells me, write a story, I can do it right? If somebody told me to paint something, I could paint something. But if someone told me to compose music, it would be impossible. I would just copy things I'd heard. I would never be able to come up with something new. And I'm so impressed that there are people out there who can do that. Totally. And I know this is still John Williams, but my family has been going through a timeline order or watch of all the Star Wars properties. And I've been thinking this a lot lately about like how he came up with the music for Darth Mall and the music for the, you know, like all of these different character. It's just really amazing. Yeah, it's amazing. For me, this film is summer. I don't remember the first time I watched it. Just that it's always been present in my life, which probably means my family showed it to me way too early. You know, my family quotes the lines. We had a cat named Hooper and we watch it every time I'm with my family. In Narraganset? Yes, like the beer. What I do remember though, is that by age 10 11, we would play jaws at the beach. My sister and I would take turns being Chrissy. We'd pretend to strip, we'd run into the water, dive in, we'd do the synchronized swimming, move with one leg up, and then imitate to the best of our ability the way she gets, like rushed about, and then we'd sink and stay there as long as we could, which I'm sure the lifeguards loved. I remember you telling me this at your wedding weekend, I think it was how you and Carrie used to do that. I remember just being in shock because I did not see this movie as young as you, and I was also a total chicken, so I didn't watch this until I was probably older than I would've played it in the water. But since then I've watched it. Yeah. You know, 8 million times probably. So you're too old to play jaws in the water now? Well, I don't, I'm not going in anyway, so can't really, sometimes the superstitious part of me, which you know exists'cause I like won, do Ouija boards thinks that I'm destined to die by shark attack because of the way I tempted fate at age 10. I think you are because you go in the ocean. Well, yeah. I mean, we talk about the chances of being attacked by a shark and how small they are. I think it's like five or six people a year worldwide. The chances are insanely small. But how many of those millions and billions of people in the world aren't going in the water? Right. Chances are higher if you're in the water. Such a good point. Shark attacks are like plane crashes. For me, I'm very afraid of plane crashes and it doesn't comfort me to hear that. You're more likely to get in a car crash on the way there from, because when you get in a car crash, yes, you can die, but there's also like a whole range of things in between death and walking away unscathed. When a plane crashes, it's. Very bad situation. I think you could say the same for getting attacked by a shark. Yes. But I think they say, and I don't know if these statistics are up to date, but it's something like 80 something people are bitten and only five or six die. Are those people missing limbs? That's serious. Mm-hmm. Right. So yeah, you don't wanna be bitten by a shark. No. Hot take. Hot take. This is news to everyone. You don't wanna be bitten by a shark. I just wanna confess something about what, what an idiot I am. Okay. Because this time of watching this movie was the first time that I really understood why they would need a bigger po. I mean, I understand that the shark was big. That's not obvious. No. I mean, I get that he's big. Okay. But I think it was the first time that I was like, oh, how else is it gonna bring the carcass back? Like it occurred to me like, the shark is big, your boat is small. Like, but I never put the pieces together of like, Hey, if we wanna kill this guy and bring him back to the shore. We literally cannot do this on this boat. Yeah. So I don't know if anyone else that's true reached their early to mid forties before they made that connection, but before that's a light bulb moment. I did. I just wanted to confess that it's okay when that scene comes on. I, so I just showed my kids 10 and 12. I don't know if that's a mistake or not, but my daughter goes, so they go back for a bigger boat, right? Yeah. And I was like, oh, my sweet summer child. They do not go back for a bigger boat. Sorry. There were no women on that boat, so No. Yeah. Ellen Brody had been on there. She would've been like, no, we're sure. So I've seen debates about whether Jaws is a horror movie. Have you come across those debates? Whether it counts, it counts. I don't even wanna entertain that question. There's no question. This is not a die is die hard. A Christmas movie thing. Yeah. But people do debate it. And for me, horror is a big tent. Like I throw dystopias in there and gothic literature in there. And just because it's not over the top and gory doesn't mean it's not horror. Sometimes there's this perception that if something's not supernatural or unnatural, that it's not considered horror. But for me, I ask, does it instill dread? And jaws instills dread. I don't think about Freddie Krueger every time I go to bed, but I think about jaws every time I go on the wall. Right? Every time, like if I'm swimming with my husband, at some point, this is his joke, he always turns to me and says, are you thinking about it? And the answer's always yes. I'm always thinking about sharks. If I'm in the water, I am scanning for shadows, for fins. You know, every time the wave rises up and you can see through it a little bit. I'm looking. As your friend, I don't think I've ever appreciated how brave you are then because when we were, as you said together a few weeks ago in Narragansett, I watched you dive straight into a wave like more than once. That could never be me, just, ah, and I didn't realize that you were thinking of it. So kudos to you on your bravery. Always. Thank you. I mean, it doesn't keep me outta the water. Like I love swimming and the rational part of my brain can override that deep dread. I feel, you know, and I swim in Australia, you know, shark attacks do happen. But yeah, I, I think when I'm swimming in the ocean, like any other worry, I have disappears. It just washes out. Except that one that's, that ramps up to 11. Mm. Which is why I was a little nervous about showing my kids because they were kind of begging and begging and begging, right? Like this summer, they really wanted to see it. I mean, this has been my Summer of Jaws. As I said. I went to Universal Studios. I took the tour. I was in Narraganset. We had a nightly shark viewing once week, broke the seal with showing them jaws. We watched the Meg, we watched Sharknado, we watched Deep Blue Sea. I know you love Deep Blue Sea. Gonna ask. Yes. They weren't as impressed by it as I wanted them to be. They preferred the mag, which was, I don't think they get it yet. They, they gotta be like 14, 16, I think to begin to appreciate the art that is deep loosey. But I do think, to your point, and this is gonna be in my recommendations, but in listening to the podcast Un Spooled, uh, they talk a lot about the attitude about horror in these lists of greats. The only way I can see people trying to debate that is to justify the gravitas they have around non horror that they use to sort of be prejudicial against horror as not worthy of accolades. And I think some people say if it's like actually a good movie, they're like, oh, well that's not horror. Right. I think Jordan Peele and Art, no Ari Ari Ster are changing that, that there's a lot of critically acclaimed horror coming out lately. Totally. So. You talked about how this movie is home for you. It's comforting. So let's talk about setting. What do you think about the Martha's Vineyard setting? Well, we sort of talked about this as well in Spotlight. There's the whole, unless you were born on the island, you're not an islander. And there's the whole vibe of people from Massachusetts don't like people not from Massachusetts, you know? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Which, which I felt was a continuing theme. So New Englandy, I know it was filmed on Martha's Vineyard, which I've never been to any of those islands. I haven't either, despite being very close. Yeah. You know, my dad, he had a, why would we go to Martha's Vineyard when we'd go to a beach here in Narraganset kind of vibe. So, which, you know, he's got I, as usual, I agree with Bill. You know, it's sort of like the traffic and whatever, like I've never even been to the Cape to be honest, because I have you in nar es. So why would I go to the Cape when I can? Yeah. See your fam. Just in terms of setting, as we said, it feels like home. You've been to Galilee, right? Mm-hmm. With me? Mm-hmm. Have you? Mm-hmm. Wherever the orca takes off from. Just reminds me so much of Galilee W We used to go there as kids and not that we were ever taken to block Island, but we would watch the boats go to Block Island and wave to the ferry. You see that? And you can almost smell that fishy briny smell. I wanna live in Chief Brody's house. It's so beautiful. That shabby chic beach. Look, you know the weathered shingles, the shutters. I wanna drive his car. Oh yeah, that'd be awesome. So it's very nostalgic and I think one of the great things about this is that they actually used local people for a lot of the extras. It makes it feel so authentic. And you know, Ben Gardner was, I guess a local guy, the actor who played him also in, in terms of environment and setting. I think this is something that has been lost in current movies. I made a note about all of the background conversations, all of the little requests over to Chief Brody about that car within. New Hampshire plates is in front of my store and, and the this and the that. You know, like all of these little townspeople problems and when you hear someone having a conversation in the background, that's more important happening in the foreground. The background conversations have meat, which I really appreciated. I think with the setting, not that I respect how it was ultimately handled, but the appreciate the perspective of people like the mayor or the lady who owns the motel. All of these people who are like, look, I have just these two months to make my year's salary, and if I can't do that, I'm really screwed. Absolutely. I mean, I know Larry Vaughn is the, the mayor of Shark City, the villain of this Absolutely. Slimy. He's manipulative, he's stubborn, but sometimes I think he is a little, at least at the beginning, unfairly portrayed, and I can almost, almost forgive him for being in denial and prioritizing the island's economic situation. After Chrissy, there is some lack of certainty there, and maybe the shark had moved on, but after Alex Kitner, a child, an islander after Ben Gardner, a local fisherman, it's unacceptable. Totally agree and yeah, he's still the mayor in Jaws too, right? Yes, yes. Feel that And Trump is our president feeling that, feeling that, yeah, in the book, he's in debt to the mob from going in on a property on Amity that won't be profitable if the beach is close. So he has this personal interest, which I think the movie was right, not to bother with. Uh, I agree with your point about like if there's no jobs, people don't have ways to buy food, et cetera. So I, I appreciate that and understand that, but strong arming the ME is not the right way to go about things. Yes, there was definitely some back room collusion for sure. Baron, you know, good on you for your hesitation to join with the local. Yes. Back to Spotlight, Marty Baron. One of the deeper horrors of this movie is the profit over people economy over life. We can spout platitudes like it's only money. Life is more important. But yeah, as you said, if you lose your business, that's devastating. When you don't have access to money, that kills at a slower pace. I've spent a lot of time in Narraganset in winter, and I see the businesses and restaurants and hotels that go under because they can't afford to only make money in the summer. It's really hard to make a living in a summer town, so that is real. Economy does matter. So I do sympathize with the people of Amity. I do think they make the wrong choice. Right? Like for example, climate change, what's ultimately more expensive, right? Dealing with the problem when you can, or waiting until it's out of control, which is the decision they make, right? Right. They're gonna lose their summer anyway because they didn't take care of the problem when they could have. Right. And now they're gonna lose it for longer probably. But part of me actually, you know when he was like, the beaches are gonna be open and it's your job to make sure the water is safe and all those people are out on patrol. If there were people with rifles, like all along the lines, scanning for sharks constantly, I would go in, I probably wouldn't be as afraid. That's interesting. That would make me more afraid.'cause it's indicative of a problem. Yeah. I would be like, people are looking out to make sure. Then I'm all right. What can they do if it comes up from under you? That's true. But it's gonna come from where they are.'cause it's gonna come from deeper, right? Yeah. So they might see it. Yeah, they would see it before it gets to you is my thought. We went to a town called Amity Point, not Amity Island. So this is an Australia. There was a fatal shark attack there in 2006. This woman, she was swimming near Drumlines. She was in deep water. It was in the evening in an area known for bull sharks, and she was killed. So I was there a few years after this. I was the only American in the group, the only non-A Australian. I grew up watching jaws, so we were gonna go snorkeling and I was very concerned when we were renting our snorkeling equipment. I asked the guy about sharks and should we be worried? And he literally said with like a chuckle, oh yeah, you heard the rumors about that shark attack. And I was like, rumors? Yeah, she died fake news. It was so Mayor Vaughn.

Anne: 20:38

I mean, this was years ago. I don't think fake news existed as a term yet. It was probably like, 2009 or something, I can't remember. But I couldn't believe it how, much it was downplayed.

20:47

But anyway, let's talk a little bit about. Just some of the things that make this perfect. I said it was practically perfect in every way. You know, like the literary devices and features of film, Beautiful Shots, for example. A great shot I like is the shift from night to day after Chrissy dies. Mm. Mm-hmm. We've got this horrible moment in darkness and then it just fades today while staying on the buoy. Mm-hmm. And you know, the orca heading out through the shark teeth and the way Brody gaze is out to sea after his sun is newly attacked and that like this means war moment. Mm-hmm. The, the light when Hooper and Brody investigate Ben Garner's boat and then that final kind of mournful scene when the shark fan is disappearing through the cloud of blood. It's really beautiful. I know there was the whole zooming in while scrolling out. Hitchcock type thing that they did with the shark attack with Brody on the beach. Dolly Zoom. Yeah. You know, it was funny. My daughter, that was her favorite part of the movie really? I think my son was like, oh, when Quint dies or something like,'cause you know he's little boy who likes violence. But my daughter was like, zoom moment. That was the best part. I was like, you've probably never seen anything like that. Yeah, because they don't really do stuff like that. Now, it definitely reminded me of old movies. I think that's like the Vertigo shot. Yeah, that's the when they fall, right? Absolutely. I mean, that scene feels like when you panic. Mm-hmm. There was a moment that I had like a year or so ago where I was in a car situation. I don't wanna talk about it, but that could have gone very badly and it didn't. Everything was fine. But that moment when you realize danger and all that adrenaline just like overwhelms you and floods your system. It feels like that. So I think it's just so effective. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Another thing that's pretty cool is the symbolism of yellow. Have you noticed that? So there's definitely a ton of yellow, but what is it symbolic of? People think it's symbolic of the danger of the shark. Right? The barrels are yellow. Alex Kitner's, floaties, yellow Pitt's owner's shirt is yellow. Mrs. Kitner's hats. Mm. In the town hall mating. Larry's blazer is a shade of yellow. There's a website called The Daily Jaws, and they have something about Jaws every day, and they had an article about it. I can link to it in our show notes every day. Every day. And I think it's been for like a decade. Oh, check it out. I mean, there's endless things you could read and watch. There's interviews, it's just, yeah. Great website. Another thing I think that is really skillful is the use of foreshadowing. I mean, I think the most obvious one is the, the compression tanks. When mm-hmm. Brody pulls the wrong knot and Hooper yells at him. You play around these things, you gonna blow up and Quint comments. I don't know what he's gonna do with it. He might eat it. And then that's what happens. And then I think in the scene where Brody is flipping through the books, you see a shark with a tank in its mouth. Mm-hmm. It's like really quick. Yeah. And when Quint scratches the chalkboard, there's a drawing of a shark with a man in his mouth and that is his fate. You know, all that just builds tension, so Well, yeah. I love that moment too, when it's really quick. In the beginning when Michael cuts himself and he's like, oh mom, I got bit by a vampire. And then he's like, can I go swimming? And it's just in the background you were talking about. Yeah. All the conversations that happen in the background, and there's that dramatic irony there because we know. There is a shark out there. Mm-hmm. But at this point, Brody, Michael, Ellen, they have no idea. And we know you don't go in the water if you're bleeding. Right. And she's like, yeah, yeah, it's fine. And so there's that tensing that we get when we hear that. Yeah. And then Brody keeps me, yo, who caught this? Ben Gardner. And then the next thing, next victim, Ben Gardner. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. That first time that Quint perhaps hooks the shark. You know, there's some argument between him and Hooper and there's that clicking of the fishing line. Mm-hmm. At the same time in the background, Brody's just like reciting his little eel in the hole. Yeah. And then he's like, I got it. And at that moment, the shark takes off or whatever it is so much in this, and this comes back to the background conversations, but it's like so much feels so real. These are normal conversations with normal looking people, which I think is something that is totally lost in our current environment. Uh, all the men look, not all the men. Some of the men look Adonis like. There's some normal looking men. Every woman has not a ounce of fat on her. Everyone looks like a normal person except for Mrs. Kitner, who is a bit old to have that, maybe that son, but like everyone looks like a normal person and, and the whole fact that he doesn't know what to do on the boat. And so Richard Dreyfus gets caught in the rope and all sorts of things where he doesn't know what he's doing. They're all very relatable, which makes it just all the more terrifying because you could really see yourself in that situation because it happens to these people, you know? Yeah. Brody, you were talking about how he looks like a normal person. He's not. Jason Statham. Right, right. Like that's who would be cast probably today, like some action hero. Totally. Which is great because he's this every man dad, unlikely hero. Do you find him attractive? I, in the 50th anniversary, Emily Blunt kept talking about how she had this massive crush on him. I mean, of the people in the film, he's the most attractive. I really love his relationship with his wife, his relationship with his kids, his like snark. He's got a very dry sense of humor. But yeah, he's a very average looking Joe who's only scars his appendix scar, you know? Yes. I love that. Might not be too, yeah. He's like, think about it. And he's like, no, you. Which I think is funny because, okay, he's a New York cop. Mm-hmm. 1970s New York cop, like crime was bad. Yes. Right. At that point. And he is portrayed as the Ws, right? Like he's get off the swings and the kids stay outta the water, get outta the boat. He know, oh, I just wanna learn the boating regulations, swim at the pond for the old ladies. Don't use the fireplace. Right. You know, he's portrayed as not as tough as Quint. He's not as experienced on the water as hooper, but this man is probably not a wuss. He left for a reason. Totally. And I actually, I had been just re-listening to some Episo old episodes of True Crime Obsessed, which. Check. I've mentioned that podcast in this recording. I think I'm, I've written mentioned it in every single one, but they cover the whole fierce city situation where they were like literally sending out pamphlets, being like, good luck to ya. This city is hell. And that's the environment he left and that's the environment she wants to go back to as the shark stuff is happening. I think the thing I like the most about Brody. He's also just that character arc. He's a man who's afraid of the water and he has to face that fear. We talked a lot about atonement in our midnight mass episode, and there's so much atonement, you know, from that moment that Mrs. Kitner slaps him. He's atoning for the mistake he made the day after Chrissy dies, where he caved to the pressure from the island administration. And I just think it's so great that he's the one, despite his fear of the ocean, despite his fear of drowning, to ultimately bring that shark down. Mm-hmm. Totally agree. I love the insider outsider dynamic. You've got the year-round islanders, the summer country club club set, and then you've got Chief Brody in between who's neither, and great pains are taken to establish this dynamic subtly and not so subtly. I love that line from Larry Vaughn. When Brody wants to close the beaches, he's like, it's your first summer. You know that's a threat. And his accent and like little things I noticed like in the town hall meeting, the way he kind of purchase on the desk, so the town's folk are in front of him. The island administration is behind him and he's in between. And I think there's so many subtle ways that they do that. Also, like he's afraid of the water. He doesn't go in the water. We all know you. Mm-hmm. And he's then that lone voice advocating for safety over economy. Do you have any other favorite Brody moments besides, we talked about the appendix. Obviously you're gonna need a bigger boat When Hoover comes over for dinner and she mentions there's a name for being afraid of the water. There's a clinical name for it, isn't there? And he's like, drowning. I love that line. Yeah. Drowning. Right? The imitation scene is probably one of my favorite scenes from anything ever. And talk about attractive. And that little boy is so freaking cute. Yeah. And and he's like, give us a kiss.'cause I need it. It's, I need that. It's so, so sweet. I also, sorry this is going to Mrs. Brody, but I was thinking about when Michael's in the boat and he's freaking out and then she picks up the book from me and she's like, did you hear your father get outta the boat? I love that scene. So good. Yeah, so good. Just about that. Making faces that Sean seen as a parent. It's so relatable. Like parenting when stressed or something traumatic is happening in your life, you know, I'm, I'm sure as you were with your mother. Mm-hmm. Right as she was sick. You know, the effort it takes to still be playful and kind to your children when you're feeling like that. I know when I've been super worried about something and maybe your heart's racing with anxiety, but you still have to be there for them. It's hard, but it's so important. And okay, I read, I read the book, and this isn't in the book and I have to give so much credit to Spielberg and Carl Gottlieb and whoever else was involved in the writing because you know, this movie's so efficient with how they translated this book to screen. For example, like in the book, there's this several page scene which Brody is discussing whether or not Chrissy's death is a shark attack with the medical examiner. And then they just pair that down to him typing shark attack and it's so effective. So they cut so much, so efficiently, but then they took the time to include this scene. Which establishes character and like, you know, we're so used to peak tv that can take its time and this is, you know, like a two hour movie and like what makes a director decide to include that? Like we wouldn't notice if it wasn't there. But it makes it so much better that it is. When I listened to the Unspool about this movie, they were mentioning that, I can't remember who it was, who, when they read the book, found themselves rooting for the shark because the characters, the humans were so unlikable and so to take the time to make those humans more likable, even like Hooper, like when's the last time that you like are rooting for the snotty rich guy? You know, like you're, you're that not in the book, that's, well yeah, I know I've heard. Let's not discuss it. But so like, I really love when he shows up for dinner and he is got red and white. Wine and, and then he is like, so how was your day? You know, it's just, yeah. Such a nice, like, oh, these, these bros are bonding, you know, from type moment. I don't know. I love when Chief Brody pours that massive glass of wine too. He's like, you might wanna let him break into, yeah. Just on the novel. As I said, I didn't enjoy it. It made me mad, but I don't regret reading it because it made me appreciate the movie more. That combination of art and genius and luck that turned this novel into this magical movie. But as I was reading it, I kept thinking, would I hate this so much if the movie didn't exist, if it was just like some thriller, probably not. Like it's not that bad, it's just not good compared to the movie and you know, there's some stuff of value. He came up with the bones of the story. Mm-hmm. The characters, the main conflict. Thank God, Spielberg and the other writers made the characters, people we like. And I think we need to give eventually credit for his work as a conservationist, as he atone for what he regrets doing because of the Villainization of Sharks. I think I saw in an article that he said that knowing what he knows today, he would not write this book now. Mm-hmm. But yeah, overall I wouldn't recommend it. Brody's an ass and he's an islander, like he's the one who's an islander in it and Hoover's this like six foot tall, blonde old money. Kendall Ellen's the rich outsider who married low and regrets it and wants back in with her privileged peers. And there's this excruciating dinner party scene where Brody's such a jerk and I'm like, no, I wanna like Brody. Yeah, right. Interesting. Enough about that novel. Oh, another Brody moment that I love is when he skips leaving his office. Hmm. Did you notice that it's that scene where he's just gotten word that it is a shark attack and I think he's headed to that general store. Mm-hmm. And he just does this little skip. He's just So they get the, the beaches clothes sign. Yes. That they don't have, they don't have let Polly do the printing. Yeah. Well, do you wanted to talk about Ellen? Well, yeah, I mean, we c we actually, we covered it because I was sort of like, she's a normal looking woman. I mean, she is slender. Yeah. But she's not Megan Fox if like, you know. No, a lot of the adults are quite older looking than I probably would expected. My mother had me at 34, and I felt like I had the oldest mom of everyone I knew. Mm-hmm. So for some of these parents, like, I don't really understand why when the mayor pressures that couple to go swimming and they bring those three kids in, why anyone? Everyone's already at the beach. If everyone's at the beach and having fun, they spend more money not in the waters. So I don't really know why they needed to get in the water. But anyway, he pushes them to go in the water, which I would not have done. I love that grandpa. Oh, so they're grandparents, right? I'm assuming they're grandparents, right? They look like grandparents. Right? Well, so does Mrs. Kitner. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think she is, but I, they look older to me than Mrs. Kitner. Mm-hmm. But I love the way he like has this lame protest that I'm, you know, waiting for my sunscreen to absorb and Yeah, I know. That's so cute. Like, look off Larry, you take off your. Anchor blazer and go in yourself. Yeah. Seriously. And then they go in so deep. Why are you going in so deep? I know, I know. I think that scene links to that elevator experiment that you've mentioned either in a past or future podcast, I can't remember, but where everyone turns around because one person turns around and that 4th of July scene reminds me of that. Okay. A few people go in the water. That doesn't make it any less, dangerous, but it just demonstrates that we're all sheep.'cause they're like, oh, it's okay. Yeah. Like they're in the water and there, I mean, you hear some of the like, background chatter, kids being like, oh, it's okay. Well, you know, like, let's go in now.'cause other people are in, well, I guess the chances are better. I, I do have a rule. I know I say I go in the water, but I, I don't go alone and I am never the deepest person because I don't wanna be the first. A shark encounters, and I don't wanna be the only item on the menu. Hmm. So I guess all those people are like, well, what are the chances? And we'll get somebody else. Just back to Ellen and Brody, I think there's just, yeah. This realistic, solid quality to their marriage. They feel real. And like, I love Ellen's nervous laughter when she listens to Hooper. Talk about the shark attacking his boat. And she's like, oh, so you're in sharks? Yeah. So cute. I love their conversation with each other when she's like, yeah, say the Ka. You know, like in the Amity you say the Ka. You're from New York. Yeah. And, and then when she's, I always love when she's like, wanna get drunk and fool around. Yeah. They're they're real. They're, yeah. Should we talk about hoop since we've been talking about how, I'd love to know. That's one of his great scenes. Mm-hmm. His little monologue about how he fell in love with sharks. What are your favorite hoop moments? Tiger Shark. So my a what? My, my legendary, what's the, what's the word I'm looking for? I got a reputation at work. Notorious. Yeah. Notorious. There you go. My notorious favorite line of this movie is A what? When he says, what kind of shark is that? And he's Tiger Shark. A what? Which I was relentlessly teased by my coworkers for being like, yeah, remember in that other movie when they said the or how, or, thank you. You know, it is a lot more memorable than other Oh, iconic moment. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. I love in that scene how he's measuring. Yeah. He's such a nerd. Yeah. Yeah. And he is like, they're all gonna die, you know, like about the clowns in the boat that he's supposed to get out of the boat. I, I love what a nerd he is. I love the way he handled the autopsy scene as well. That scene's so good. I, it's so good. I was watching it with my earbud in and, and subtitles or whatever, and my husband's like reading the subtitles over my shoulder and he, and he's like, how does he know all these medical terms? Isn't he like a fish? And I was like, if he's obsessed with sharks, you have to expect that he would know parts of the human anatomy because of shark attacks. Is that an unfair? Yeah, he's seen what a shark can do, right? Yeah. Most likely. Whether it's through journals and photos or in person. I mean, I love that scene because once again, it's what's implied, what's not shown. That balance. We see the horror through his reaction, his his heavy breathing, the pace he speaks at, the need for a drink of water, and then his scathing. This is not a boating accident. Yeah, it's great. So good. So good. The best part of Hooper is that interplay between him and Quint, you know, the city hands versus working for a living, sailing versus sharking book smarts versus the wisdom of decades on the water. I love all those moments when he's just barely tolerating quince. Mm-hmm. You know, like when he keeps uncomfortably smiling while Quint maintains that really piercing eye contact and starts singing farewell. And do you fare Spanish ladies? Yeah. Yeah. And then of course, the moment that they're drunk, it's so cute. And they're talking about the Marilyn Moffitt. She broke my heart. Yeah. I, I love that whole scene when they're talking about the scars and stuff like that. But I also love all the annoyance leading up to it when he's talking under his breath. There's a lot of ways in which I don't even think I would've said it out loud, but I would've been thinking it.'cause he doesn't wanna piss off the guy too much. But he's angry and he is like, I'll give a few full throttle run. You know, like he's really, really annoyed with the way he's being bossed around. But then he's, he's grumbly. Yeah. When they have their bonding scene, that's one of the best scenes in the movie. Absolutely one of the best scenes. It's funny you mention having a cat named Hooper because we know someone who has had now four boys, but they had three boys that they named Brody, Quint, and Hooper, and then the fourth. Oh my God, I love it. The fourth boy, they named Maverick because they were like, well, we ran outta Jaw's names, but they should have named him Bruce. Bruce. They should have thought harder about that. Right? There was a way, or they could named Steven after Spielberg or something like, there's so many people. Seriously, they could have attributed that kid to, or Ben, the guy whose boat? Ben Gardner? Yeah, Ben Gardner. Yeah. They could have named him Ben Larry. No, don't name anyone after Larry Long. Michael. Like Mikey, you know, missed opportunity. Totally. Well, let's talk about Quint. Our Narraganset can Crushing Limerick singing Captain Ahab Damaged Man, which we find out from the famous USS Indianapolis scene. He's a loner. He drinks too much. He refers to celebrating his third wife's deese. So he's obviously incapable of maintaining relationship, but I love him. Yeah. I think I was also reading, I think true of the actor himself had, I think four wives. Three or four, yeah. I think I read that he had like 10 kids, almost didn't do this movie. He had a visa issue and tax issue. Well, he was talked into it, I thought by maybe his third wife, I don't know which wife, someone mm-hmm. Who, who he admitted knew better. I love his accent. It's not a New England accent. No. Whatever it is, it works. It's so weird when you see an interview with him and he's got this kind of posh Experian English accent and apparently he modeled his Quint accent after the real person who played Ben Gardner, right? Maybe it is a New England accent. I don't know. He hopped around different accent areas of the uk, including Scotland growing up. So I think it's probably the best he could do of a New England accent given his existing accent. Whatever it is, it it, it works for me. I wanna talk about his introduction scene. The you all know me scene, and I also think that moment is really ironic because we don't know him, right? This is the first time we've seen him. We know the islanders know him, but we, the audience don't know him. We're the outsiders in that moment and we have to put it together that this guy's a force to be reckoned with. That kind of subdued, confident authority. We know this is a man with a story, even if we don't know it yet. I was thinking Quint, you know, besides the casual misogyny and the way he probably shames students, he could, he might make a good teacher. Actually. I was thinking what a wonderful and patient teacher he was for Brody on that boat. Yeah, he was really nice to Brody. He's so nice to Brody. He's so mean to Hoover and like really, really nice to Brody. I agree. I agree. I think you're right. He can command a room. He knows when to shut up. We're always told his teachers reduce teacher talking time and don't just like drone on at the students, you know, he doesn't talk too much. He uses rhymes, right? To help people remember. And I was thinking about that scene. We do a lot of persuasive writing and I think this scene is just this perfect little sliver of a persuasive speech. We talk about how speech needs a balance of like ethos, which is authority, logos, logic, and pathos, which which is emotion. And he appeals to the emotion of fear. You're gonna be on welfare all summer. He's got logic that this shark will be a problem for everyone. And he lets his authority speak for itself. And then he ends on a call to action,$10,000 for me by myself. It's a little persuasive speech. It's great, it's great. And knowing me, I did look up Mrs. Kitner's Bounty as well as the$10,000, including the price of the, I knew you would do that Brandy and the caviar and the color TV do. Do you wanna guess how much he was asking for ballpark?$50,000 close. It was about 62, 60$3,000. Okay. 10,000 is about 60,000 today. And then the Iranian caviar, the cases of whiskey, the cases of brandy, the color tv, all of that would've gotten it to about, you know, 61, 62. He's joking about the caviar and the tv, right? I never thought he seriously meant that. I mean, he says, Brandy, and you're buying lunch. And you know, like, and I mean, Brody says, sure, you know, he agrees to all of it. Just a little shout out to a side character who's that little guy who like follows Quint around, but. Isn't invited on the orca. Do you know? He's got this guy who like, he's with him in the town hall scene and he's with him when he's stocking up the boat, but he doesn't get invited. I feel bad for him. Well, I don't know who that guy was, but I also wrote down he hems and haws about hooper coming along and then calls him essentially baggage, but he immediately needs his help. Like immediately when he clips himself into the thing. What, how was he gonna do it without Hooper? There's no way he could have No, he needed help. Toxic masculinity there Yeah. Made me thinking he could do it on himself. There you go. But having put that criticism on him, he's just got so many good moments. I love the way he just, his smirk when he says ladies and gentlemen, or his casual toss of the life jacket that we know he's not gonna put on. And, and I think my absolute favorite Quint moment is in the scar comparison scene when he slaps hooper's calf. Mm-hmm. And then like looks up at Brody with just this expression of delight. It's, yeah, it's cute. He does have a very cute drunk face. He's got a great drunk face. Quint contains multitudes. He's a complex man. He does. Do we have any other favorite side character? Shout out. So there's a woman who is like, you're never gonna be an islander if you're not born on the island. You're not an islander. And then Mrs. Taft. Yeah. And when, then when they're in the water later, she's like, love Harry. Hate her. Like it's, she's just like talking shit nonstop that woman. Which yeah, she's great. Are you going to close the beaches woman? She, she is good. She is good. Yeah. She's not someone I'd want to cross. No, she's intimidating. Yeah, she's the queen bee. Oh. And another guy, the guy I like to call George Costanza, who's like trampling kids and like practically pushing babies under the water during the panic scene. Oh, I'm so Costanza. Yeah, absolutely. And oh, the journalist Harry, he's a great side character. And that is actually played by Carl Gottlieb, who was one of the script writers, and I love his, his fashion. He's got these fantastic red pants on. That's another contrast. These islander men wear the most ridiculous suits and roadies in beige all the time. Well, let's move on to talking about the scariest parts. We haven't talked about Chrissy's death, which I think is just, again, that balance between what is shown and and not shown. I think it's masterful. We see Chrissy absolutely thrashed about, which just forces us to wonder what's happening to her under the surface. I don't think about this beginning scene very often when I watch this movie because it's so disconnected from the other characters. All the other characters have a relationship with each other, and this scene at the beginning is so separate. But of course the precursor to everything, it, it's horrifying. But I think also in way I am able to remove myself from it a little bit. Not because I wouldn't, you know, be partying with a strange boy and then do something stupid, but it wouldn't be in the ocean. Okay. You are not connected to her because she's not really connected to any of the other. Characters, but that's, I think Spielberg, I don't know if he started something here, but it does follow a kind of slasher playbook that we see later. Right? Like scream, introduce a victim quickly. It follows. Yeah, it follows. And then we get the real showdown with somebody else, right? We get Sydney versus Ghostface. Michael Myers versus Lori Strode and Brody versus Bruce. Oh, another parallel to Halloween and Michael Myers. We start with the point of view of the predator. That was kind of new at the time to have. Mm-hmm. Us in the eyes of the Predator. And Halloween, the first one starts exactly like that as he goes and kills his sister. And it's also like that first scene in Jurassic Park, Spielberg. Mm-hmm. When he something works, he sticks with it. That guy who's dragged into the Velociraptors cage, we see his arms, his screams, his anguish, just like with Chrissy. And then he is just gone. I hate the screams. I hate the screams. Yeah. It's horrifying. She acted the hell out of that. I mean, you really feel like she's dying. Well, and she's screaming, I don't wanna die. Like it's really, it's horrific. It's really awful. By the way, how drunk is Tom? He's about to get late and he still passes out. You'd think he'd be a bit more motivated to stay awake. He must be so drunk. Yeah. I love the whole conversation where it's like, I live with my parents in Greenwich and whatever, and he is wearing the Preppiest outfit I've ever seen. Apparently that actor chose that outfit'cause they had something else for him. And he is like, an islander wouldn't wear that. Someone from Greenwich wouldn't wear. Yeah. Yes. Do you have any favorite scary scenes? I like the fake scare of the kids because I actually always thank, thank God the cuffs didn't shoot those kids with their fake fin. They could have died. Every time I watch it I'm like, those kids could have died. But also they look a lot like Michael, like Brody's son. The first several times I watched it, I was like, was that Brody's son doing that? But anyway, then the other girl who's like shark in the pond. I mean, it's not a jump scare, but it, it's the scarier thing because right after someone has had a false scare is the worst time to have a real crisis. Yeah. And they do that a lot. Like in Alex Kitner scene. False scare. False scare before the real thing actually happens. Just back to your shark in the pond scene, because of Kitner, Michael's in the pond, and we know they're not afraid to kill a kid. Mm-hmm. They've killed Alex Kitner. We keep seeing Michael treading water, and we're all wondering, and then there's that moment where he's dragged out and they really focus on his legs because up until that point mm-hmm. We don't know. Are they still there? And then there's that relief. We feel as an audience that, okay, Michael is still alive. And that seems important too, because it's the first time we actually see the shark and there's this harrowing noise as it comes up and pulls that man down and then we see his severed leg and ugh, it's pretty gross. That poor man who is just trying to help the boys. Yeah, I know. I, I like that scene too, because again, you keep talking about the background conversations, the way the boys are arguing with each other, like gimme a. Very real. Yeah. Another, you know, minorly scary scene is the swim Charlie swim scene with the holiday roast who has a holiday roast in July. Right. You're having burgers. I was wondering, was it meant to be frozen for like an actual holiday? Well, because later they say why all her frozen meat is gone, but it's clearly not frozen. I mean, they would've had to defrost and, and something that size to defrost takes a long time. So that was a big roast. I love the way, again, the, you don't see the shark, you see the dock moving and the dock is the thing that turns around. Yeah, it's good. Yeah. Don't look back. Swim. Yeah. So good. And it takes so long for him to get his feet out of the water. I'm just like, ah, like, keep going. I know. Those idiots. Those idiots. We should talk about Alex Kitner's death. It's definitely one of the best scenes in the movie that Sion pole between leaving. It's the viewer's imagination and gore and violence. They got it just right with Alex. As I said, this is my daughter's favorite scene, like Brody's tension and vigilance on the beach. All the fake outs where he just starts to relax and we get that tension breaking humorous moment with Bad Hat Harry. And then the music comes on, we see the shark's point of view and then there's this explosion of blood and gore and limbs and it's confusing and you're not quite sure what you're seeing as an audience. Just like the people on the beach don't know. And it's just seeing his skinny body being pulled under, it's, it's brutal. You know? I have a child about that age and it's hard not to imagine your own little kid in the water. It's so sad. Well, and and the mother, her looking around like. Something happening, like, what's going on? You know, like she's so innocently, like, why is everyone upset? And then she's looking for him at the shore. It's just, it's so, it's so sad. Yeah. And it's like everybody's pairing up with their kid and then mm-hmm. She's the only one left searching, you know, we talked about her age. Why do they make her so old? And I think it's to exacerbate her grief, because yeah, she's probably not gonna have another kid. You get the feeling she's alone. It's her and Alex. We don't see a dad. We see somebody who looks like a grandpa accompanying her when she slaps Brody. But I get the impression that child was all she had. Yeah. And I did look this up, and Spielberg confirmed she was a single mom. If we can insert a mini palate cleanser, because we're talking about a child death. You and I discussed that the woman who played Mrs. Kitner had gone to a restaurant and they had the Alex Kitner special as a sandwich on the menu. And she mentioned being Mrs. Kitner. And then the boy who played Alex came out from the kitchen and he owned the restaurant, which is why he named the sandwich after the character. And then they got to see each other for the first time since the movie. So Mini Pal Cleanser, after the saddest part of the movie. Yeah. And I guess that's the advantage of having locals as your extras and side characters because then they still have that experience and might run into each other and it's great. I think unlike your average slasher deaths matter, there's grief, and this is, I think the moment that really sets up Brody's final showdown because he has to atone for what he did. Other great scenes. We've already talked about Brody. Looking at the Shark Books, it reminds me of Spotlight when they're looking at the priest directory. It arguably should be boring. It's just a guy looking at a book, but it's so intense the way the music accompanies what he's doing, and there's a lot of foreshadowing in that as well. And I was imagining the internet Rabbit hole Shark Week binge Brody would be on if this were happening today. Totally. And when you a asked about do I find him attractive or whatever, I was reminded of my nerdy husband who gets super obsessed with topics and then knows weird facts about it. When he's spouting out those things he has learned through that book to Hooper over dinner or that scene when they're on the beach and they're blowing the whistle and he is like, no whistles. You know, like, and you're just like. Oh, you cute little nerd Brody could be a older version of your man. I can see that. Mm-hmm. Can we talk about perhaps the most famous scene Quint's speech in the USS Indianapolis? I've probably seen this a hundred times and it still hits me. The power of Robert Shaw's delivery here. I mean, I love how it starts with that tension breaking moment that Spielberg manages to balance so well. They're goofy, they're having fun, they're comparing their scars. I'll drink to your leg. I mean, talk about injuries is a great way to bond. I often use that as a, a icebreaker with new, a new group of students. Like, talk about time you got hurt because everybody you know, it doesn't kill you. Makes a great story. Then that moment where the air is just sucked out of the room and everybody immediately sobers up when Quint says, that's the USS Indianapolis, but not everybody, because Brody doesn't know what that is. I disagree real, but he's like, what is it? I think bro knows what it's. He says what happened? I think he wants the d, he wants the story. But I know a lot of people criticize Brady for not knowing what that is, and I'm like, I dunno if that's true. Like maybe he doesn't, but I think he just wants the story. Well, what happened? I wasn't really criticizing him as much as I was thinking. Like he's from New York City. They're not a lot of Army people. I, I'm sure that he not, I'm sure, I know he knows about the bomb, you know, like, but I don't think he would know the name of a ship. That's not really a thing. I don't wanna speak for all 10 million New Yorkers there are, but like, that's not really the kind of talk that happens around there. There's not a lot of like army brats in New York City. I, I don't think he knows that story. I feel like if he didn't know, he would've said, what's that? But instead he said, what happened anyway, it doesn't matter. I would've been like, what happened on that ship this whole time? Quint is being sympathetic to Brody and totally shitty to Hooper because he feels like they're both blue color guys or whatever, and hooper's this like snooty rich guy. Then alternatively, they have this conversation about scars and appreciation for the ocean and understanding of what the USS Indianapolis might be and the story behind it. Hooper clearly has because he loves the ocean. Whatever family he was born into, he has chosen to dedicate his life to the world that Quint E exists in. So I think it is a nice moment of Quint coming to terms with having a relationship with Hooper as well, not just over scars and drinking. Yeah, it's a moment when they coalesce, they come together, they obviously don't. A hundred percent stay together with the events that follow where mm-hmm. Quint smashes the radio and pushes the boat too far. But in that moment, they are a team and they come together as a team too when they build the shark cage. I think that's a great scene. I mean, this, this speech, he's magnetic the way he communicates. The horror of this. What is it like five day experience and it's distilled into this three or four minute speech. It's so sparse, it's so efficient. One of the documentaries that was originally, mm-hmm. About eight minutes and Robert Shaw himself was the one who paired it down to what we see in the movie. The sound in that is so good too, like the way you hear the creek of the boat and then kind of haunting music, but it really takes a backseat to his words and almost everything he says is with this smile. And he is maintaining this intense eye contact with Brody. He takes his hat off out of respect, but then you see it start to catch up with him. Like he takes a drink, he begins to knock on the table. The intensity rises as he remembers, and there's so many good lines, like lifeless eyes, black eyes, like a doll's eyes, and that terrible high pitch screaming and they rip you to pieces. A part of him never left that week in the ocean and that's why he makes the bad decisions he later makes. Why did he smash that radio? I. I made me so upset. I think it's because he never left in his mind. This is vengeance. I think for him, right? He's never gonna put on a life jacket again. He doesn't want help. This is man versus monster. And he is not going to give up until he does it. I, one thing I don't understand is why he pushed the boat the way he did. I can understand more why he smashed the radio. That makes sense to me with his character. But why he pushed the boat so hard, that has never made sense to me. Mm-hmm. It becomes so clear the shark is trying to destroy the boat, like so that they don't have a boat. He didn't get that. Like how did he not get that? It's just, it's a decision that doesn't make sense. But I guess he's just so stubborn. Mm-hmm. Right. And he's gonna do things his way. I mean, maybe he has survivor's guilt, a death wish. Maybe this is his final destination moment, right? He escaped all those years ago, but now it's finally catching up with him. One thing I wanted to say about this is often the advice to writers is show, don't tell. Show me your character is scared with their actions. Don't tell me they're scared, but I do think telling instead of showing can be effective in small doses as this monologue shows. And you know, we think back to my love of ghosts in the verbs, which is all telling, I think there's something that reaches deep down in our need to hear a scary story. Back to the time we sat around the campfires, as you know, cave people. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I love that. Should we talk about quint's death, which was probably the glorious thing I'd ever seen at that point in my life, whenever I first saw it as a child. Yeah. The blood coming out of his mouth is rough. It's gross. It's really gross. A couple days after I showed my kid's jaws, my son had a fever. He woke up in the middle of the night and he's, he's got this horrified, scared look on his face, and he starts pointing to the corner of his bed and he's going kick it. Kick it, kick it. And I'm like, kick what? Kick what? Like what's there? Because obviously, you know, I, I'm open to ghosts, so I'm like, okay, is there some kind of entity at the end of his bed? He just keeps intensifying his fear and telling me to kick it. And so I just kicked the bed, kicked at the bed and then he just calmed down. He couldn't remember the next morning what it was all about. But I wonder, was it because of Quint's death? Quint sliding down the decline of Sure. That boat and wanting to kick at the shark. So I don't know. He couldn't remember. But that was the only explanation I could come back, come up with. Speaking of your kids, were they excited that Brisbane is mentioned? Brisbane is mentioned, uh, and this is when my criticisms of the movie, they mispronounce it. Hooper says, I'm not gonna go to Brisbane Australia when I've got a great white right here, Brisbane. And you know, he didn't have the internet to look up pronunciations back then, so that's okay. Oh, I can forgive him. Mm-hmm. Should we talk about Brody's death star moment where he hits just right. The smiley son of a bitch? Speaking of him being a New York City, I don't know how much practice he is had with a gun like that. That is like a hunting rifle. That's not the type of gun you would use as a New York City cop. So I was like, how lucky. But yeah. Well, yeah, that could have ended much worse for him. Mm-hmm. It's so harrowing and tense, that final scene, you know, especially we know that birdie's terrified of the water and at that point drowning has fallen back. Yeah, right. That is not the biggest threat. They're so close to safety. For most of the movie, all you see is a empty horizon. Right. But in this scene you can see Amity and just the way it's slowly tilting down and you see the shark coming at him and it's so ominous and then it's so cathartic when he shouts with that pure joy when the shark explodes, it's great. I was curious if it was very intentional that he is like, smile, you son of a, and then it, he doesn't complete the swear. Was that intentional for some sort of rating purpose? I feel like I heard the swear. I'll have to go rewatch that and say. Do you have any criticism? Sorry, it's such a hard question because I feel like, I don't know. No, I don't. I don't. Do you? Not much. I do think they don't make a big enough deal out of Ben Gardner's death. He was an islander and Larry is like, where's the tooth? Or do you still have that tooth? No, they don't have the tooth, but they have been Gardner's body. Right. And his boat as proof. Right. So I feel like there's something in the writing there that doesn't make sense, like maybe there was a cut or an added scene. And I know in the documentary they say they reshot that that great jump scare where Ben's face comes out of the bottom of the boat in a pool. Yes. There's just a little bit of like glossing over his death in a way that I think doesn't make sense. Oh, speaking of things, they gloss over Pippin. Nobody discusses what happens with Pippin. I have a theory that PPI's alive really well. Okay. There's no blood, so unless the shark literally swallowed PPI hole, where did he go? You would've seen it. I'd like to think that PPI sensed. Danger as animals often do and got the hell out of there because otherwise I just feel like you would've seen something like we see with Alex Kitner's like explosion, or we would've seen pipit go under and there would've been blood, but I don't know, maybe the shark's big enough to actually swallow a pipi hole. We drag him out. Let's just pretend PPI's still alive. Fine. Yes. Yeah, so nevermind about our trigger warning. The dog doesn't die. We've decided. We've decided. But one other thing, I think there's a discrepancy in the barrels. This is minor, but you know, there's a first barrel shot on like the first day, and then at some point the shark comes back with no barrel, which could make sense, but it's just not commented on like, oh, did it dislodge or something. They're not like, oh, we shot a barrel and now it's not there again. Who cares? It's minor. It's a masterpiece. And I think we need to do a special shout out to Verna Fields, the editor, you know, she won an Oscar, but in some ways she's an unsung hero because she's not a household name the way Spielberg is or the actors are, and she probably should be. And I just think it's amazing how good it is. We all know the expression, too many cooks spoiled the broth. And there were so many people who had a hand in this script from Harold Sackler to Peter Benchley, to Carl Gottlieb, Spielberg himself, the actors, and it just comes out so perfectly, which is amazing. There's a couple of times where the music, I doesn't, I do, I doesn't, I doesn't feel like the music is right. I don't feel like the music is appropriate for like, what is happening. Like there's, there's a couple of moments where the music is reminding me of coy when they're like discovering the pirate ship or like never ending story when things are being revealed where it's like the magically mystical and, and it's like a, a scary moment when they're like chasing the shark and it's adventure music. Yeah, totally. You're right. Yes. Where, where I'm like. This is a little more intense than this music is conveying John Williams mostly a hundred per, you know, maybe this is like a 90% and also do sharks Roar? No, I don't think dinosaurs roar either. We have no, no proof of dinosaur roaring. No, we, and now we know they make chicken sounds Right, but we didn't know that then we, I think we know sharks don't roar. Like I don't think anyone has ever questioned whether sharks roar, but he's like super roaring when he is attacking the cage. Yeah. No sharks don't roar. We need a T-shirt that says that. Yeah. Yes. Sharks don't roar. Okay. I have a question. How did Chrissy expect to find her clothes? It's a dark beach and she's just like, sock here, shirt there, bra there. I don't even know if she was wearing a bra, but like, what was she gonna do when she got out of that water? That was silly. I think you're thinking of that with your like adult mind, because I know that now when I'm gonna be like intimate with my husband, I'm like, remember where you put your underwear? You know, it's like you, you know you're gonna be looking for that later when you can't see anything. And I also am blind, like at wear context during the day. I am not gonna be like putting my glasses on to be like, where are my undies? You know, like, so I, I, that might be something we've learned with age. Another question I have is, why are these people swimming so deep? I go in the ocean. Despite my fear of sharks, I would never go so deep that there would be like feet in between me and the shark. They must be so deep. I never go where I can't stand. I mean, I grew up off the Long Island sound, so there's sandbars like that that would be insanely deep for the beaches I grew up going to. Yeah, I might go as deep as where like I'm standing and the wave lifts me off momentarily, but I'm still close enough that I can stand. I guess it just makes for a cool shot. The shark swim under and that shark point of view. My biggest question is why did mm-hmm Quint push his vessel? Did he just believe in it or what was he wanting? His final showdown? I don't know. What do you think? I felt like he was being a guy. I felt like it was toxic masculinity. Yeah. Okay. I'll accept that. One thing I wanted to look up. I didn't was Hooper talks about the concept of a rogue shark and territoriality. You know, that's a theory I happen to believe in. I think he says, and I wanted to look up what has changed in our understanding of this concept. Like is that actually true? But I didn't, so that's something I'd like to know. At some point. I was curious about that as well, because I was like, are there non rogue sharks? I sort of thought all sharks were independent. I think great whites are independent, but the other sharks, like bull sharks swim in packs. The woman who was killed at Amity Point off the coast of Queensland was killed by a pack of sharks. They think three sharks were after her, which is horrifying to imagine. Well, let's talk about the true horror beneath the surface. I think the horror of loss and grief and not being able to take back that decision. Mrs. Kitner says he can go out for 10 more minutes and imagine the lifetime of regret from that decision, and there's nothing she can do about it. I do not like to think about that. Another deeper horror is the attitude that something is only a problem when it affects you personally or the way Larry denies it's a problem until it's gonna swim up and bite him in the ass as Hooper says. You know, for example, don't worry about climate change until it's your town flooding, and I think we can apply this to the recently passed Big, beautiful Bill. Lots of people have been complacent about what this administration is going to do, thinking, well, I'm safe because I'm not part of this, that, or the other group. And that is increasingly less true. Government policies are swimming up to bite a lot of people in the ass. Let's jaws for a minute. This podcast I listened to was recorded during the pandemic, and they talk a lot about this aspect, about the pandemic denial until it swims up and bites you in the ass. Another di horror of course, is corruption and collusion between, I guess, branches of government and institutions sets a great scene when they corner Brody on the ferry as he's going out to get the Boy Scouts. Clearly a deal has been struck before they get to him. The medical examiner or coroner, whoever he is, has been perhaps threatened, perhaps bribed pressure has been exerted and he betrays Brody and he knows it's a shark attack, which earns him a spot as my probably least favorite side character because he doesn't get the pushback on that. He doesn't get slapped by Mrs. Kitten or Brody does. Thousand percent. And I gotta say, as a person who listens to true crime constantly, there are so many times when there are Emmys shifting their opinions or whatever, and that leads to, in some cases, people spending 20 years in jail for a crime they didn't commit. It's not always about protecting commerce. Sometimes it's about protecting the police theory on a thing. Oftentimes it goes in the other direction, like in favor of the police. Yeah, I agree. I, I feel like that guy didn't get enough comeuppance. Yeah, and then just backroom deals, perhaps protecting individuals. I mean, we can again, apply that to what's happening today. I can only imagine the backroom deals and pressures and with whatever's happening with these Epstein files, you know, and I think we should remember that Jaws was made post watergates, which is at a previous high for distrust of politicians. We can link this back to spotlight and the collusion between journalism, government, law enforcement. You know, we see in the town hall meeting, Harry and Larry are discussing, burying the story, but then he amplifies the story of the falsely accused tiger shark and unjustly execute it. So yeah, separation of powers. No collusion, transparency don't cover things up. Amity Island is a microcosm for our world, and when institutions are in cahoots, corruption happens. And I think that it illustrates the challenge of figuring out the right balance between elected positions and non-elected positions and protections and non protections. We have people who wanna be reelected and so they need certain things to happen. And then we have other people who want some level of immunity so that they can conduct behavior in, in some ways that is ethical. I think the common denominator is humans finding out ways to corrupt, no matter which way you slice it. Yeah. Yeah. We don't want people who aren't held accountable, but we, we also want people who can make the tough decisions. It's tough. The last true horror I wanted to talk about was the villainization of sharks. We are very bad at calculating risk according to this Pita article I read, wine corks, constipation, drowning, and lightning are all more likely to kill you than a shark. And humans kill something like 70 million sharks a year while they kill an average of five of us. So we should keep that in mind while we discuss the monster horror movie that is Jaws. Wow. I really didn't know constipation was so high up there. It can be very serious. Yeah. Well, I mean five people, right? Almost anything will kill more than five people a year. That's, that's right. That's a good point. I came across this podcast called Beyond Jaws, where this group of like real life Matt Hoopers are discussing their research and perception of sharks. I recommend it. There was delightful bickering about which Underrated Shark needs more research and they all talk about how Matt Hooper's character impacted them as either teenagers who chose to go into shark research because of him partially, or just how they saw themselves in him in their early career. And there's this funny moment where they start talking about like the Shark conference and they're like, name dropping different, I Theologists. I think that's how you pronounce it. It was fun. But anyway, they ultimately conclude that Jaws had a net positive effect on perception of sharks because it prompted curiosity, which meant, you know, shark researchers are getting funded. So this fear of sharks that did result in a spike in I guess a shark genocide ultimately led to fascination, which led to research, which led to. Protection. Yeah. I think they have one of those speaking on the unspool episode, don't they? Yeah, I think so. Which is nice because then we don't have to feel bad about liking jaws. Right. Any survival tips you learn from jaws, I mean, obviously don't go in the water, but otherwise, I mean, I think it is another of many instances where I feel like you learn bearing something doesn't ever make it ultimately a benefit in the end, things always end up coming out in one way or another. And the fact that you were hiding them ends up being the worst problem then. Yeah. If you had just come out with it when you discovered the issue. My survival tips. Wear a life jacket on a boat and get a bigger boat. Mm. If you see a shark like that, like just go back and get a bigger boat I won't say don't swim'cause I do love swimming, but take precautions. Swim on patrol beaches. don't go so deep that a shark could like fully get under you. My last survival tip is let a mix of wisdom from experience and science guide you. I think we have Quint and hooper both having good ideas and something to contribute. They don't have to be in conflict, which is why I love that scene when Quint passes off the life jackets. But then is like, what about this sharking? I think that's a great point, especially in this moment of the Meha movement. Make America healthy again. Movement. My grandparents were immunologists. I believe in science and vaccines and medication and all of that stuff, but I also had a mom who took me to acupuncture for anxiety. And you can have a mix of things. Don't need to be like all Eastern, all Western, all Dr. Pharma. Maybe a little bit of both is really the right way to be. And you don't have to judge a little bit of this and a little bit of that. I agree. Do you have a palette cleanser? I do. Speaking of comfort and love of cinema and our appreciation for cinema, which I think has been oozing throughout this episode, I just watched the series, the studio on Apple, apple plus, apple tv, whatever it is, it is so wonderful in a million different ways, and I, I highly, highly recommend it really illustrates comedy. There's a lot of meta commentary happening throughout it. There's a lot of cool shot work scene work, camera approaches, stuff like that. And then also a lot of just legendary, amazing people in it. It's Seth Rogan, Catherine O'Hara, Catherine Hahn. Brian Cranston's in it. Like it's just so many incredible people. It's really, really wonderful to watch. That's a lot of funny people. Sounds awesome. Okay, so in addition to your palate cleanser, do you have any recommendation? Yes. I mean, I know we've talked about Un Spooled, which is a great podcast where they go through the a FI Top 100. It's Paul Sheer, who also has another podcast that's probably better known. How did this get made? They cover Jaws four on how did this get made, which I have never seen. I've only ever, that sounds so fun. I, I, I've only ever seen the First Jaws. Oh my God, you should watch it just for fun. It's so bad. Uh, so I've heard, yeah, and I believe it's Paul Paul's wife, June, Diane Rayfield, who's in Frank and Gracie. Gracie and Frank, whichever it is. I think Jaws four is her favorite Jaws movie. Anyway, there's also the incredible movie that we've discussed already, deep Blue Sea, and there is an episode of how did this Get Made where they covered Deep Blue Sea that I've listened to twice'cause it's so fantastic. I listened to it for the second time on my birthday as like a, what do I wanna do to treat myself on my birthday? It's so good. Yeah, it's so good. Have I told you that every time our children do something clever, we'll say the shocks. Yes. Yes, it's so good. And every time I make an omelet, I think of making it with two eggs, not three. And not to add milk. Yes. Isn't sweet. No milk. Oh, and the sharks in Deep Blue Sea die in the order of the sharks in all the Jaws movies. So like the first one gets exploded, A second one, I don't know, might get electrocuted or something like that. What a fun tribute, and I learned that on the, I think un spooled episode, or maybe it was, how did this get made? There's also a great episode of the Dollop called New Jersey Shark Attacks. It's episode 210 with guest stars are Queens, Karen Cole, Gareth, and Georgia Hard Star from my favorite Murder. It's an incredible episode that I've listened to a ton of times as well. That sounds awesome. I think I might have listened to it in the past. But I would listen to it again. I love the Dialup. There's a lot of great documentaries about New York in the seventies that might make you be like, oh, this is why they got outta Dodge. Fear City is one. There's Drop Dead City. There's of course all the Sun of Sam type things to cover, et cetera. And I think that's it for my recommendations. How about you? I'd love to add basically any Shark movie. We've talked about Jaws four and Deep Blue Sea, but obviously open water, the reef, the mag. I think my favorite shark movie other than Jaws, is probably the Shallows, sorry, other than Deep Blue Sea is the shallows. I think I would go Jaws Deep Blue Sea Shallows. Good. We might have had a problem. Yes. No, deep blue C is definitely gonna be there too. Sharknado, we watched that with your family for the first time and I just re-watched it with my kids and it was so much fun. Like it's so dumb and nonsensical. And you know, there's this scene where the waitress gives her Quint backstory. Mm-hmm. She had this traumatic experience with sharks and then she says completely redundantly. And that's why I hate sharks. Yeah. Yeah, that was my favorite moment. So good. The Quint speech is so subtle and understated and horrific. And then this is just the opposite. Yeah, I haven't seen this yet, but there's this movie called Dangerous Animals that recently came out and it's about a serial killer who somehow uses sharks to murder people. A review I read called it a Trashy Good Time, which is the best kind of good time. So I'm excited for that crawl. Unlike Jaws, it does commit that cardinal sin of showing the monster almost immediately, but I still really like it. It's this natural disaster movie meets killer alligators'cause there's like a hurricane coming and this girl and her dad are stuck under the house as the waters are rising. But the alligators Brock, their exit, great jump scares. Make you pull your feet up onto the couch. If you're looking for more literary pairing, Moby Dick, I haven't read it myself, but some might be interested in revisiting or visiting for the first time. A classic Cobra Kai in honor of the Amity youth Karate, the pick and fences. Because a dojo gone wrong can cause a lot of damage. Hell yeah, good point. Maybe it shouldn't have been downplayed So much Hot fuzz. Sarah, buttery on the podcast I've mentioned. Let's jaws for a minute. Points out the similarities. You know, and I totally agree, it's outsider comes to town, deals with a threat. Great showdown ensues if you have kids who are drawn to darkness. The I survived the shark attacks of 1916 Kids novel by Lauren Tarshish. I survived as a series that my son loves. It goes into basically any dark moment in history from the point of view of a child, all the Spielberg creature features, et Jurassic Park. If you want to see Quint playing a very different role, go back and watch the James Bond movie from Russia with Love. He's really young and menacing in that. Uh, there's a play out by Ian Shaw, Robert Shaw's son called The Shark is Broken, which sounds interesting. If you just wanna know more about Jaws itself, there's a 45th anniversary Life Magazine special that I got through Libby. Lots of behind the scenes info and photos I hadn't seen, and I think they've actually since released it as a 50th anniversary, but that's not the one I read. If you want a true crime pairing, watch the Lady of the Dunes documentary, whose case was recently solved. Joe Hill, Stephen King's son saw a woman with a blue bandana that looked like the bandana left near the body of a woman who was murdered in 1974 on the Cape, not far from Martha's Vineyard. So he hypothesized that she might have been an extra in Jaws. This is probably not the case, but it did bring a lot of attention to her case and it has since been solved. Spoiler alert. The husband did it. Yeah. No shit for a change. Also, that was the longest cold case, like in Massachusetts history at the time that it was sold. Oh really? I haven't actually watched the documentary yet, but I wanted to before we did this and didn't get to, I haven't either, but I did listen to True Crime Obsessed cover it. Okay. Of course you did. And if listening to us talk for, I don't know, an hour and a half is not enough. There's so many podcasts you could listen to. There's the one with a group of shark researchers I mentioned. It's called Beyond Jaws. Wondery has a podcast called Becoming Spielberg. I listened to, I think one episode of that and then also. My favorite find this time was, let's Jaws for a minute. There are 79 episodes each covering roughly a minute of Jaws in depth, so that's 70 something hours of people talking about how awesome Jaws is. As of this recording, I've listened to about 15. I thought I would just dip in, but I'm actually really enjoying it and I do intend to finish even though we're done talking about Jaws. And you might wanna watch Blue Water, white Death, Iran and Valerie Taylor's real footage of sharks in Australia that was inspirational to Benchley and they also provided footage for the film. So anytime you see a real shark, it's probably from them. And then there's the recent 50th anniversary documentary that just came out. Okay, so that was our Jaws Summer special, and next week we're going to return to Carolyn's recommendation after midnight mass, which is Heaven's Skate, the Cult of Cults. After that, we'll be discussing Carrie, another 1970s horror icon. I am finally gonna recommend a book, Woohoo, which you're probably not gonna see too many of those for me, but, I'm really excited about this one. Catch and Kill. So if you haven't read it, if you wanted to read it again, I have an audible account, so I usually do that, but also, you know, reserve it at your library, et cetera, and get started or buy it and support journalism. There you go. bookshop.org. Local? Local, yes. Shop local. Thanks for listening. Please do all the things podcasters asked you to do, like and subscribe. Follow us on Instagram or Facebook. Tell a friend write a review on iTunes. You can email us at Drawn to Darkness pod@gmail.com. And if like Shirley Jackson, you delight in what you fear, join us in two weeks here at Drawn to Darkness. Special shout out to Nancy Huno who paints our cover art. You can find her on Instagram at Nancy ano and to Harry Kid for our intro and outro music. You can find him on Spotify and on Instagram at Harry J Kid