Drawn to Darkness

14 - Catch and Kill by Ronan Farrow

• Anne Azano • Episode 13

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In this episode, we discuss Catch and Kill by Ronan Farrow, the explosive exposé that revealed how Harvey Weinstein and a network of enablers in Hollywood, politics, and media silenced victims of sexual assault for decades. Farrow’s investigation was blocked by NBC, he was stalked by private investigators, and threatened with legal intimidation, but ultimately published in The New Yorker, sparking the global reckoning we now know as the #MeToo movement.

We unpack the book’s chilling revelations, from Weinstein’s predatory patterns, to the role of lawyers, executives, and journalists who covered up his crimes, to the women whose bravery broke decades of silence. Along the way, we talk villains (Weinstein, Matt Lauer, Lisa Bloom, David Pecker) and heroes (Ronan, the survivors, and whistleblowers like Igor Ostrovsky). Expect references to Game of Thrones, Succession, Gone Girl, 30 Rock, and even Mean Girls, because corruption and cruelty have their cultural fingerprints everywhere.

Spoiler + Trigger Warning: sexual assault, harassment, rape, gaslighting, and victim-blaming. We also include explicit spoilers for Catch and Kill. Please listen with care.

Palate Cleanser: Try the TikTok trend where people attempt to run with the same arm and same leg at once — it’s way harder (and funnier) than it sounds. Plus, we celebrate love: Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce just got engaged.

Recommendations:

  • Catch and Kill Podcast — Farrow’s 10-part companion series featuring survivor testimony.
  • Feature articles from Vanity Fair, Vogue, and The New Yorker
  • Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo (Hollywood corruption)
  • 30 Rock - early jokes reveal the open secret about Weinstein
  • Spotlight (Ep. 5 of Drawn to Darkness) — go back to discussion on journalists exposing abuse in the Catholic Church.
  • The Morning Show (Apple TV+) — Fictionalised account of a Matt Lauer-style scandal.
  • Promising Young Woman — A bold, revenge-driven take on rape culture.
  • One Mississippi (Tig Notaro) — Semi-autobiographical series with sharp critiques of abuse and complicity.
  • SmartLess Podcast (Ronan Farrow guest) — A lighter way to hear more from him.
  • The Wire / The X-Files / The Insider / Pelican Brief / Stranger Things— Corruption, cover-ups, and the need for free press.
  • Stuff they don't want you to know (a podcast about conspiracies)
  • Life Under Cover: Coming of Age in the CIA by Amaryllis Fox
  • Cruel Intentions - because it's satisfying when the truth comes out
  • Support the survivors — (for example Scream for Rose McGowan and The Hand that Rocks the Cradle)
  • Mean Girls — Because fake friendship-as-betrayal (looking at you, “Diana Philip”) deserves a rewatch.

Homework:

Read “The Yellow Wallpaper” by Charlotte Perkins Gilman — A short gothic story about gaslighting and women’s mental health. (Available free online or on Trev Downey’s The Great Stories podcast).

Watch Rosemary’s Baby — Because Mia Farrow (Ronan’s mother) and gothic paranoia make for a perfect segue.

Special thanks to Nancy Azano for our cover art (Instagram: @nancyazano) and to Harry Kidd for our opening score (Instagram: @harryjkidd) 

Anne:

Welcome back to Drawn To Darkness, a biweekly podcast where we discuss our favorite horror and true crime. you would choose the bear or at least understand why many would we're here for you. My name is Annie and I'll be introducing Caroline to my favorite horror movies, podcasts, TV shows, and books.

Caroline:

And my name is Caroline and I'll be doing the same from the true crime side of things.

Anne:

first of all, I just want to make a minor correction to something I said in our. Episode on the act. I kept calling Guinea pigs hamsters like multiple times, and you corrected me I didn't even notice. I was just so set on these things being hamsters. And they're not hamsters, they're Guinea pigs. So I wanted to point that out in case anyone was screaming at their phone as they listen to the podcasts. so Guinea pigs in the act, And the other thing was, I said that Patricia Arquette was a Weinstein victim at one point, and it was actually her sister Rosanna Arquette. I think Patricia was impacted in some ways because she spoke out, but it was Rosanna Arquette that actually had an interaction with Harvey Weinstein. so I wanna start by asking you a question. have you ever hated a celebrity but couldn't quite put your finger on why?

Caroline:

Yes. Actually a very like beloved one

Anne:

Okay. Is that something you wanna talk about or No.

Caroline:

don't under, I think Ryan Reynolds and I, I feel bad saying that

Anne:

Oh,

Caroline:

son loves him, dressed up as him

Anne:

my kids love him too.

Caroline:

like a your favorite superhero day. He just dressed up like Ryan Reynolds just being not

Anne:

Okay,

Caroline:

Deadpool or anything.

Anne:

okay. Just like him off screen. Behind Yeah.

Caroline:

like lives a town over, so I hope I never run into him, but, don't know, I, I get a vibe.

Anne:

Okay. Do you think that has something to do with the recent Blake Lively smearing that in the media.

Caroline:

found that validating, but no, it

Anne:

Okay.

Caroline:

to Van Wilder days. Like it's, it's been there the whole

Anne:

Okay. Okay. the reason I ask this is because many of us have evolved on public figures who were eviscerated by the media, particularly in the nineties. we're now looking back and seeing them through a different lens, whether it's Monica Linsky or Britney. and the book that we're about to discuss has made me think about that and doubt all entertainment, Hollywood news that has this publicist touch to it, and we don't know why. We are as an audience, being swayed to view a person in one way or another. it reminds me of that scene in and or season two, when we see a meeting of empire bureaucrats, including publicists who are talking about rumors. They're going to spread to villainize a certain group. And then in later episodes we see average people just discussing those same talking points. And I think that's something that happens very much in real life, which is what we're going to discuss today. so we're discussing the book Catch and Kill by Ronan Farrow. There is a lot of discussion of sexual assault, harassment, rape, gaslighting, So if that is triggering to you, please take care while listening. also, we will be spoiling what happens in the books, so we recommend that you read it. If you're not a big reader, you could also listen to his podcast, which pretty much covers most of the same points. it's a 10 part series that interviews a lot of women. It's really good. Or you could read the New Yorker article. we were both able to read it without, hitting the paywall. So, Caroline, do you wanna tell us what this is about?

Caroline:

Thank you. Catch and Kill by Ronan Farrow traces his investigation into how powerful men, including in this book, Harvey Weinstein, used money, influence, and media connections to silence victims of sexual abuse an NBC reporter or contributing reporter Pharaoh investigated long swirling rumors about Weinstein gathering testimony from survivors despite pressure from his own network, to abandon the story, surveillance and pressure from Weinstein's allies as well private investigators and legal intimidation. When NBC made a very cowardly decision not to publish, the New Yorker stepped in and released Pharaoh's expose. The book is not just the story of one predator, but also the network of politicians, lawyers, and media including the National Enquirer That enabled abuse by catching damaging stories and killing them to protect influential figures. Pharaoh shows how this culture of complicity extended beyond Hollywood to journalists, politicians, and even US president.

Anne:

Hmm. So what adjective would you use to describe this?

Caroline:

maybe chilling is the best word, because none of this is over by any stretch.

Anne:

No, it's certainly not

Caroline:

creepy.

Anne:

Hmm. Yeah.

Caroline:

creepy, scary, and also like a, movie come to life.

Anne:

yes, I had clandestine, like it's this real life spy thriller with private eyes, with Russian accents, meeting in restaurant basements to reveal secrets. And there's these o really ominous, like cinematic moments. For example, at some point a woman tells Ronan, be careful when he asks about the the Weinstein allegations. So it's all very cinematic, but it's also real. the other adjective that came to my mind. well actually not an adjective, but shame, shame, shame. Thinking about Cy Lannister in Game of Thrones. I know that's a noun, but shame on NBC. it made me think of that Norm McDonald quote. I think I saw it on comedians in cars getting coffee. With Jerry Seinfeld and he discussing whether the worst thing about Cosby was the hypocrisy. And he goes, I think it was the raping. Have you ever seen that?

Caroline:

I love the show Seinfeld. I'm not a fan of Jerry Seinfeld as a person, so I don't like, enjoy watching him do things that are, aren't in the show.

Anne:

fair enough. He does interview some pretty funny comedians. It's a hit and miss show. Some of them are good, some of them are

Caroline:

the

Anne:

But

Caroline:

Dreyfus one of course.'cause I had to

Anne:

yeah, that would be great. nor McDonald's does bring up this question of, which is the worst crime? Is it the assault of women or is it the coverup? Because without the coverup, the assault can't continue. If someone had revealed Weinstein and held him accountable the first time he ever did that, how many other women would not have been subjected to this violence and the psychological damage that they experienced from this absolute monster of a man? So I think yes, the raping is worse, but the coverup is also very bad. I think we should talk about the setting, a little bit, a lot of Weinstein's predatory actions were taking place in the nineties. so we're looking at a pre me too era. I've been thinking about this lately because I've been showing my kids a lot of our favorite movies, And you look back at these eighties, nineties movies that make really light of sexual assault, and there's a lot of casual objectification of women,, 16 Candles comes to mind as the most egregious the drunk girl basically handed off to be raped. And the crowd cheers because the nerd got the girl, right? But then you've got, George McFly watching Lorraine change in Back to the Future, or John Candy, UPS Skitting In Splash. And it's all played for laughs in these movies that I loved as a child, but I really have trouble stomaching it now.

Caroline:

I have to say. loving all those John Hughes movies and being very into the Brat Pack and everything. I remember watching that and being very unsettled and being like, nobody else is uncomfortable with this. This seems really horrible. And I never

Anne:

Mm-hmm.

Caroline:

because it seemed like nobody else cared. like I wonder how many other people felt the same way, but they were afraid to seem square or whatever, be the most 1950s adjectives to use about it,

Anne:

I mean, that reminds me of the cool girl monologue from Gone Girl, You don't wanna be the girl who can't take a joke, right? So you laugh along, you pretend it doesn't bother you. But I think we all have these moments where we have felt deeply unsettled, whether it was because of a movie or a comment somebody made, and we keep our mouth shut about it. And I'm hoping that we are at some point entering an era where when we are feeling that way, we can speak up.

Caroline:

always have to be the girl that's a victim, because I remember also in high school being like, there is a teacher having sex with pacey. that seems very, very wrong,

Anne:

Hmm.

Caroline:

it really wasn't treated like rape, which it is.'cause he is a minor. That is statutory rape,

Anne:

Yeah. It's not okay because it's a boy. No. also, have you met high school boys? I mean,

Caroline:

Pacey

Anne:

like, I teach them. I, yeah, he's not real, right? they're not, like they say I teach them. They're not okay. Uh, any woman who makes that decision is, I can't even fathom it. so, Ashley Judd's accusation goes back to 1996. Pharaoh's reporting broke in 2017. there is some indication on Wikipedia. I know that's not the best source, that there are accusations before that as well in terms of his predatory behavior. So that's at least 20 years. We've got decades of this man, wreaking havoc on all these different women's lives. it's also really important because this isn't the lead to Trump winning in 2016. So that's the bad that we are still dealing with and we'll be dealing with for a very long time. And the good is that this was instrumental in provoking that outpouring of stories that we now think of as the Me Too movement. So I think that historical setting is important to keep in mind as we discuss this book.

Caroline:

have you seen the Courtney Love clip?

Anne:

No.

Caroline:

there is a clip where she says, like, I probably shouldn't say this, but if Harvey Weinstein ever asks you to meet him in a hotel room, say no. And I think it was for like MTV news, But she never comes up in the book, obviously. But she said it on camera. You can watch it

Anne:

Maybe she was saying it because she knew somebody who experienced it. Maybe it wasn't her specifically.

Caroline:

I, I think it gives credence to the open secret, aspect. I just wanna, before we really dive into some of the details of this book, I want our listeners all over the world, which thank you for listening to know that I read this book, the Hard Copy, the first time I listened to it. This time was driving a lot of the time. And so I was taking voice memos saying, okay, Google take a voice memo. And she told me, I got you, boo. Like, she was like, go ahead with your memo. And then I said my thing. And she was like, memo saved. And then I came home and it's all of it gone, all of it. And

Anne:

Oh no.

Caroline:

very so, I just wanna apologize to people. I've been trying to make a concerted effort to remember names better and other things that I know are deficiencies of mine. But, it's just gone.

Anne:

Oh, that's annoying. Well, luckily you read it recently, so you should be all right

Caroline:

I.

Anne:

So let's talk about, the villains of this story. I was thinking we could organize our discussion around villains and heroes. there's quite a spectrum of villains, whether we're discussing people who look the other way. Ben Affleck is apparently one, and all the people in Hollywood who knew this open secret and did nothing and perhaps claimed ignorance later, there's a lot of people who praised him and then later were like, I had no idea. is that true? I guess we'll never know. then there's the people who were actively involved in the coverup or spying, even if they just did it for the paycheck. The lawyers, the executives like Oppenheim and lack at NBC, and then the so-called journalists like David Packer at the Inquire, who was involved in catching these stories and killing them. This goes back to that Norm McDonald hypocrisy quote. I think it's an unfortunate reality that there will always be rapists, there will always be predators. We've said it several times on this podcast, but it, is these systems and rape culture that allows people like this to continue to get away with it. So we wanna discuss some of those people besides Weinstein.

Caroline:

I actually remember that I had a note on Ben Affleck when he was like, I told him to stop doing that. I'm like, Ben, did you really think have influence over? Like you're just gonna be like, stop doing that Harvey, and he's gonna listen. Like that's not the way to get a predator to stop.

Anne:

No, you have to reveal him.

Caroline:

to your point about people who enable the coverup, the most chilling early part of this book is when he is chatting with Matt Lauer about the story, he leaves Matt's office and he's like, should I get the door? And Matt's like, I got it.

Anne:

Ugh, so gross. Let's talk about Matt Lauer, a little bit down the track, let's talk about Harvey now. well, obviously the biggest villain here, or one of the biggest villains is Harvey Weinstein, winner of the now Rescinded Truth Teller Award. Currently awaiting a retrial at Rikers because he keeps getting retrials. He's a big, scary, intimidating, volatile man who made a few good movies, but created a culture of fear at Miramax and retribution. He has three daughters who I believe are no longer in contact with him, and he's got his tent, or he had his tentacles in a lot of political spheres. He donated money to the Clintons Obama, Elizabeth Warren, New York Attorney General, Cyrus Vance, which is important and we'll discuss that later. And he also had an army of lawyers, publicists, connections with other important people and executives, and even hired former Mossad operatives to get his needs met and cover up his pattern of predatory behavior.

Caroline:

it's so exhausting listening to the operative part too, where you're just like, this energy could go towards something that isn't just so self-serving,

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

and yeah, he did make a lot of great movies, or produce them. He didn't write them. he didn't direct them. A lot of people are involved in making something great, not just money people, what I thought was interesting in the very beginning, because I very recently, one of my palate cleansers was the studio in a recent episode, they mentioned early on in the book that Weinstein thanked at the awards, I think second only to God.

Anne:

I've heard that quote. Yeah.

Caroline:

in the studio where there is a producer or a studio head or something has it in the contract that if you win an award you have to thank them. I was like immediately suspicious as to how much of that was genuine,

Anne:

Yeah. A lot of egos involved in this business. you've mentioned the effort he put into keeping this secret and the money it's not cheap to hire private investigators and lawyers and to be potentially, paying off, media outlets to get stories hidden. this is just such an example of how rape is not just about sex, this man had so much money, he spent so much of it to pay for silence. He could have paid women to have sex with him consensually, but he didn't. He used power, he forced women who didn't want to. So this is more about power degradation. I, I think in the New Yorker article, Emily to. Cols, I dunno how to pronounce. Her name is another woman he tried the shower massage attempt on, and she said she feels like the fear turns him on. Rose McGowan, she hypothesizes in the catch and kill episode. There's an interview with her at episode 10, that his real business was his rape factory and the endless supply of women to take advantage of. And maybe the hobby was the movies. I don't know if it's true, but I thought that was a very interesting observation that she made.

Caroline:

That

Anne:

I.

Caroline:

me so mad because I love movies so much. I mean, it makes me mad for many reasons. Obviously more appropriate reasons, but in addition to the reasons I was already mad. It makes me mad because like I would give anything to be able to make my life around movies, I have no talent anything related to movies. So, I couldn't, but it, oh God, that's so infuriating. But speaking of the fear, you can pay for that too. but I guess he knows it's pretend. As I mentioned a few minutes ago, I listened to it this time, and I had no idea I was going to hear the actual audio of his encounter with the Italian actress. who again, I'm sorry, I didn't write, I don't have anybody's names

Anne:

Amber.

Caroline:

Yeah. that recording came up while I was driving and I, was shocked immediately. It was very startling and so terrifying and I can't anybody would listen to that and be like, you didn't really admit to anything. Like what on earth?

Anne:

that recording, really speaks to his pattern, set a meeting, perhaps have a female executive around to make the women feel comfortable, dangle wealth, dangle opportunity, reel these women in, perhaps force himself on them, or at the very least, put intense, intense pressure. And you hear that intense pressure in that recording. Like he's just like, no, come in, come in, come in. and if he doesn't, he destroys them and. even if Weinstein hadn't actually assaulted anyone, like he just, and I'm putting just in quotation marks, pressured women for sexual favors in exchange for career opportunities. That's bad enough. That's a horror on its own. those things are still happening, of course, And happening to vulnerable people who just want their first break. it's just horrific on so many levels.

Caroline:

It really is. I mean, I felt physically nauseous just now when you were talking about the audio. Just hearing somebody describe what it was like, makes me feel sick.

Anne:

the way he says, I'm used to that. Like, it's nothing.

Caroline:

Like it's nothing like, it's

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

of it, like it's nothing.

Anne:

Yeah. It was nothing to him until it's not,

Caroline:

men they all treat this it's nothing. It's really sickening.

Anne:

it's really sickening. Well, speaking of Oppenheim, who's the next biggest villain for you? Would it be Oppenheim or somebody else? I think I had David Picker next to my list, but we can go up in Heim and then back to him.

Caroline:

of a three way tie I think between Oppenheim, the spy lady who, Anna, who makes friends with Rose McGowan.

Anne:

Who pretends to be Diana, Philip,

Caroline:

And the lawyer who pretends to be a defender of women. Lisa

Anne:

Lisa

Caroline:

I

Anne:

Yep.

Caroline:

in like

Anne:

Well,

Caroline:

of

Anne:

let's

Caroline:

for me.

Anne:

Absolutely. Yeah. Well let's start with Oppenheim. Poster boy of corporate cowardice and passing the buck. And we know he was in contact with Weinstein who sent him a bottle of like, what was it, Greg Goose Is Greg Goose That nice? It's nice, right?

Caroline:

It's,

Anne:

it that nice?

Caroline:

buy it, so it can't be that nice.

Anne:

That's what I think. Like I feel like I've had Greg Goose, drinks. I'm like, it's not that nice. Right. If I can afford it. so what do you think Weinstein needs to pressure him?

Caroline:

I mean, it's like the Billy Bush interview. Like of them have had shitty conversations together where they are objectifying women and doing whatever. They, they all have stuff

Anne:

Hmm.

Caroline:

over each other. And it sounds like, Harvey could have been threatening Matt Lauer, who knows what he knew,

Anne:

Yeah, and Andrew Lack was also litigating his own accusations of harassment Andrew Lack, I think, is much older and he was in a position above Oppenheim and he was litigating his own kind of things from like, I think the seventies or eighties where he would, sleep with women but then vilify and destroy them and end their careers. So just

Caroline:

familiar.

Anne:

another bad actor using his power. I think it's interesting that Ronan Farrow was accused by Weinstein of having a conflict of interest because of his sister. But isn't it a bigger conflict of interest When the people in charge of the decision to run the story are settling their own harassment suits, which was the case with Andrew Lack.

Caroline:

and actually Ronan makes this great point where he's like, so nobody who has a sibling or, or an immediate relative who's been assaulted can report on this. Nobody would ever be able to report. I mean, I, I can tell you that 100% of this podcast's hosts have been assaulted, you know, like

Anne:

Hmm.

Caroline:

one way or another. so I, of course like that it's ludicrous, ludicrous.

Anne:

Yeah. so the excuse was concerns about tortious interference, which I still am not sure what that is. And the claim that reporting did not meet standards that no one was actually willing to give their name, which Pharaoh, David Remnick at the New Yorker, and the woman who spoke out deny. And then after the fact, Oppenheim was scrambling to cover up being on that wrong side of history by trying to get McHugh and Pharaoh to sign on to NBC's version of events to keep their jobs. They also hired a scrubber to make NBC look better on Wikipedia, doing things like increasing the time between when NBC killed the story and the New Yorker published. So again, just shameful,

Caroline:

If you just do the right thing, you'd end up with more money in the end.

Anne:

I.

Caroline:

You know, like, because you end up having to spend all this money fixing the fact that you did the wrong thing,

Anne:

Right. And the truth must out and if it does out, you're in trouble. If you cover it up,

Caroline:

if you're alive when it happens. Because there's plenty of people who've gotten away with all sorts of stuff and ended up dying without any consequences, in our history. So Either place in a bet. You

Anne:

Do succession really explores that. in succession?

Caroline:

succession I grew up in a very wealthy town, and everyone reminded me of all the people I grew up with and I couldn't stand it. I just couldn't stand to keep spending free time with these people.

Anne:

It's so good. It's so good. And there really is a relevant storyline with shredding of documents and covering up and who's the executive that's gonna take the fall when the sexual stuff does come out. So really relevant to this.

Caroline:

clear, I have

Anne:

Um,

Caroline:

about succession. I support anyone recommending it. I couldn't really watch it myself, but maybe one day,

Anne:

fair enough. anything else you wanna say about Oppenheim and luck?

Caroline:

I mean, I really didn't understand how long, I guess this might fall under criticism, how long it took Ronan to understand that Oppenheim was trash. Like seemed kind of apparent to me from a long way away, and I know it was my second time consuming this book, but when it becomes very clear to the reader that Oppenheim. Is shady he goes into, like articles he wrote for Yale and all this stuff. All this sexist behavior, which I have to say was the most infuriating part of listening to the book. This time. I want, I was like clutching the steering wheel, so angry listening to these, indictments on feminism that he wrote. I didn't really think it was believable that Ronan wouldn't be able to catch that

Anne:

Mm. I think something you say is important here, that he has a history of, misogynist rhetoric. He did this horrible thing at his job, covering up. But guess what? He still works for NBC, He works for NBC Universal. He has not paid for this. And let's compare that to how easy it is to smear a woman. All you have to do is say she's

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

And she's out. So the double standard there is very upsetting. So I think my next biggest villain is, or villains are David Ecker and Dylan Howard of the National Enquirer. David Ecker was the CEO of a MI. And when I heard his name, I just kept thinking of Ghostbusters. Do you remember the bad guy? Oh, the bad guy in Ghostbusters is Walter Peck.

Caroline:

Oh, no, I didn't remember that. Was his name the one who has no penis?

Anne:

Yeah. Him. And do you remember when you watched Ghostbusters as a kid and you were like, Walter Peck with the EPA, they're the bad guys interfering with Ghostbusters. How dare they?

Caroline:

years?

Anne:

Stupid Environmental protection agency.

Caroline:

Yeah. I was thinking of, the end sequence in Austin Powers movies that I always love when they're being like, it looks like a giant pecker. You know, like she's looking

Anne:

Aha. Yeah.

Caroline:

complete. It's two balls.

Anne:

it, it's a great name for a real class. A dickhead. Hey.

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

I wrote down this quote from the book, I can't remember who wrote it, whether it was just Ronan's description or it was a quote, but, a media cabal akin to the Vatican, willing to cover up sex crimes. they engaged in checkbook journalism, like buying up Karen McDougall's story about Trump to hide it before the election. I think this guy is a huge villain because played a massive hand in getting Trump elected, he was at the head of an industry that had a safe, full of killed stories about Trump. other employees have reported that there was a shredding party. So what got shredded? What was too big to come out? What don't we know?

Caroline:

And what would we know if we just believed victims? Because there have been people who have on the record said, I was raped by Trump at 13. So again, to your double standard, we are way more apt to believe. I wrote everything down in my journal when I was in college and I, you know, like from, from a cranky white man than than a 13-year-old who had a promiscuous job or something like that. Or even didn't, I mean, just was a woman,

Anne:

Yeah, I always think with this believe women thing, like it's really hard to come forward and there are horrific consequences for coming forward. nobody wants to be the next Anita Hill or you know, you look at Christine Blasey Ford, the woman who came forward against Brett Kavanaugh, she re-traumatized herself. She got death threats. She was mocked, accused of lying. She had to move, she had to hire private security, and he still got the job right? Like her life is ruined and was it worth it for her to come forward? there's such a huge toll in coming forward. we see this happen to other women. So why would you do it if it's not true? And again, I'm not saying there can't be like operatives who lie and people who are trying to destroy people, but the likelihood is if this is a person who has had a otherwise normal life and they come forward at this moment and say, listen, this thing happened on the balance of probability, especially with a man like Trump who has multiple accusations against him, they're telling the truth.

Caroline:

Right, so I am an Ultron apologist, I'll say for our Marvel, MCU fellow MCU fans, I think that he was correct, that, people are kind of the thing that's in the way of peace. to that end, everything is corruptible. So like there's always gonna be people who can figure out a way to twist a thing to their benefit, such as Anatomy of Lies. For example, the docuseries on the Grey's Anatomy writer, Finch, something Finch, she was full of shit about everything, including rape. But it's important to know that like she is the exception to the rule in general. Women don't do that. we should believe them. and I think default there. but another thing I just wanted to mention, because you mentioned Anita Hill, she didn't even come forward. She was subpoenaed and she was still roasted over it, you know? So it really has never been a benefit to anyone to come forward lying or not lying.

Anne:

Absolutely. Yeah. Who's your next biggest villain?

Caroline:

should we talk about Lisa Bloom?

Anne:

Yes. I hate Lisa Bloom.

Caroline:

too.

Anne:

What a traitor.

Caroline:

I remember the heartbreak the first time, but

Anne:

You know, she,

Caroline:

time, it's like really rough.

Anne:

you know, she, defended women. She defended our girl Misha Barton in the sixth Sense. In a revenge porn case. She was an advocate. what makes someone who has been an advocate who's probably loaded right, like she's made plenty of money, why would she agree to work for Weinstein? How much money do you need?

Caroline:

I wonder this about a lot of people who were heroes. Like you think about the Jinx, which we will be covering at some point. but you think about Janine Pirro who's on the right side of history and a hero

Anne:

Mm

Caroline:

case, and then you're like, what happened to you? And, even Geraldo who like was exposing abuse and she, who wasn't, must not be named, you know, who we were talking about. there are all these people who you're just like, what happened to you?

Anne:

What made you susceptible to this messaging? why be on the side of cruelty when you don't have to be, and you've advocated for kindness in the past,

Caroline:

Especially in this context, which is very insidious and emotionally abusive as well,

Anne:

I,

Caroline:

is predatory behavior and you understand how predators work, you can listen to a predator and tell yourself to ignore her. I mean, if she genuinely felt that he was innocent, how did she train herself to ignore all of the red flags that she have been aware of as a prior advocate for the Abused? You know,

Anne:

I don't believe she thought he was innocent, right? For a second, I believe she was a powerful lawyer was using her past advocacy and knowledge from that to manipulate a system to make money. So she's despicable. Fuck you, Lisa Bloom.

Caroline:

I agree. Fuck you, Lisa Bloom.

Anne:

what about Donna Rato Weinstein's lawyer? she's says she's never been sexually assaulted in quotes, because I would never put myself in that position.

Caroline:

you.

Anne:

Right. Rose McGowan points out that she went to a business meeting at 10:00 AM.

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

Donna, have you been to business meetings at 10:00 AM Right. charge to make.

Caroline:

woman who has ever said that to me about herself in a braggadocious way was at January 6th, and we don't speak anymore. I mean, it is a

Anne:

Okay.

Caroline:

like, gross, ignorant perspective.

Anne:

Yeah. You've been lucky. And then you victim blame those who haven't been. another evil woman in this is, I, I can't remember her real name, but, she introduces herself to Rose McGowan as Diana Philip, and she's the Black Cube employee who befriended Rose McGowan. Rose knew her as Diana, and so she befriended her to smear her, which is just so nasty. Right. Like, I know it's just a job. But, she still, parts of her memoir, I think Rose really trusted her, she apparently said at one point, she's like the only person she can trust. So this is a woman who's very skilled at manipulation. To make Rose feel that way. When she was faking the whole thing, it reminded me of that, plot line of Sopranos, where an FBI agent befriends Adriana, do you remember that?

Caroline:

so heartbreaking.

Anne:

And she really thinks she's her friend and it's really sad. And you know, Ronan also says he got a call from a woman with a European accent claiming wine, a Weinstein encounter, So she was probably trying to catfish him into reporting on a false encounter so that the rest of the story could be dis discredited.

Caroline:

I think we've talked before about how hurt people hurt people and the whole thing, I wanna credit wine and crime for about your trauma or mental health problem is not your fault, but it is your responsibility. I think with her, because her backstory is included, I understand her dissociation, I guess, with other people. she experienced probably cutthroat and British behavior living in a war zone situation as a child.

Anne:

was in, was it Sarajevo?

Caroline:

Yeah. so I understand that if you're living in a crisis and people have to do what they have to do to survive that, you might learn some skills that are. Not great generally, and not respectful to other people, but to then go and use those, apply them and continue and make a living off of them when you don't need to, I think is kind of another thing.

Anne:

Yeah, I understand that there's trauma in what she would've gone through that might've led to a survival, the fittest mentality. it's a dog eat dog world, all that kind of stuff. But there's also plenty of people who survive war zones and go on to be advocates and, put goodness into the world, you don't have to be like, like her. She's an extreme example of, taking a very evil situation and actually becoming evil. Another woman who I think, didn't do the right thing here, was, Martha Bashford, the head of the DA's sex crime Unit, who apparently grilled Amber Gutierrez. She described it as if this woman were Weinstein's defense attorney, As we've mentioned, Amber had Weinstein on tape admitting he touched her breast without consent, and that he was used to that aggressively trying to get her into his hotel room. And instead she ends up, being the one defending herself. And instead she was smeared as a sex worker. No charges were brought, most likely because Weinstein had donated money to the DA's office.

Caroline:

Yeah, New City and many US cities elect

Anne:

I,

Caroline:

officials. It's a rough situation, and I think it's hard. I, I don't know what I would do honestly in that situation if the directive were coming from my boss that you need to be suspicious of this person. I didn't know anything else. I don't know. I was angry about it as well. I absolutely was. But also knowing how many, mean, Andrew Cu Cuomo, you know, like there's a lot of garbage people New York government, so

Anne:

I mean, I think the boots on the ground. Detectives were not on board. They were like, yeah, let's set up this sting. I can't help but picturing like Benson and Stabler from SVU, being total advocates throughout the whole episode and then getting the news that the DA has decided not to press charges. And being absolutely furious and disenchanted when that order comes down. it feels like an SVU episode where things don't work out. Right.

Caroline:

I we had this conversation in Jaws where it's like, it's hard when there's elected positions and when there's not elect, you know, like again, Ultron was right.

Anne:

And again, that links into why corporate money and politics is so

Caroline:

yes.

Anne:

corrupt. Like there's all this money floating around that influenced why Weinstein was allowed to keep going. People act in the interest of staying in power instead of doing what is actually right. And in some cases, what is their job It was their job to, bring charges against that man. And they didn't do it because most likely Cyrus Vance was getting donations from him.

Caroline:

Absolutely.

Anne:

Alright. Matt Lauer. possibly the reason that Oppenheim was unwilling to go forward against, Harvey Weinstein, that perhaps Matt Lauer was being held over his head. another reason Matt Lauer's a jerk. He helicopters back and forth to work from the Hamptons. What an asshole.

Caroline:

an asshole.

Anne:

And he's the reason Ann Curry was fired. Remember Ann Curry?

Caroline:

remember learning this. can, I just say I was so upset about all of this because unlike Ryan Reynolds, I liked Matlow.

Anne:

yeah, I, I don't think I've ever spent a lot of time watching the Today Show, but I did watch back in the Katie Cou Matt Lauer days. Like I think my parents often had it on. Yeah. He's a likable guy

Caroline:

He seemed like a

Anne:

on the surface.

Caroline:

Yeah. Like I really liked

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

Ronan always mentions his suits. I did always feel like he was impeccably dressed. I didn't get that

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

re,

Anne:

Well,

Caroline:

I didn't think like Rege had like super tailored suits, you know?

Anne:

nothing bad has come out against reach, right?

Caroline:

I don't know.

Anne:

You dunno.

Caroline:

know.

Anne:

I don't know. Well, according to an L magazine article I read, these allegations did not fall into the gray zone. Many Me Too cases did, but rather painted a portrait of a long and disturbing pattern of sexually manipulative behavior in the workplace. Women accused Lauer of lording his power over them, of once exposing his penis without warning of making frequent lewd comments and gifting an unwanted sex toy. Anne Curry says that after a woman confided in her about Lauer, in quotes, I told management they had a problem and they needed to keep an eye on him and how he deals with women. And then guess what happened to her?

Caroline:

Unbelievable. I love her too.

Anne:

Yeah. And it was blamed on their chemistry, right? That they didn't have the chemistry. She was too cold.

Caroline:

Please.

Anne:

Yeah, she's delightful.

Caroline:

delightful.

Anne:

So what a scumbag. There's the casual sexual harassment, there's probably consensual affairs in there. He is a cheater. But the biggest thing was the accusation by Brooke Nevilles, that he forced anal sex on her without her consent in his hotel room. She's interviewed on the Catch and Kill podcast. Her account is sickening.

Caroline:

anal sex,

Anne:

Yeah. And she said no. She said no, she didn't wanna do it. She was drunk, like really drunk. She went down to his hotel. He, he'd been nice to her in the past, she'd always, been okay with him. And then, yeah, he, I, that is her story. I found this podcast, I didn't listen to the whole thing. It's called Beyond the Blinds. and they kind of go through all the reports about Matt Lauer from very early days. Like, oh, Matt Lauer was seen kind of canoodling reports, you know, and it's mostly about, infidelity. Again, I didn't finish it, so I don't know where it goes after that. But they mention, Matt Lauer being a creep in interviews you can find compilations of him. Yeah. Just making kind of uncomfortable sexual jokes when I looked it up, it was vaguely upsetting, but once you know what he has done and what he was capable of, it seems much more ominous and insidious. These kind of casual jokes that he was making as an interviewer.

Caroline:

I remember feeling initially bad for Billy Bush when that whole thing went down, because the two of them, certainly the person on that recording making the most horrific statements was not Billy Bush. And like two weeks later, that person was elected president. So I thought it was a little that Billy Bush would be the one to be thrown under the bus, but then. In the reread of this book, hearing all of the other really crass and gross statements that he made that I wasn't aware of because I don't generally consume media like that. and then I was like, oh, well it seems fair although I also wish the other thing didn't happen.

Anne:

I don't know how many times I've said it, it's appalling Trump as president after that moment. There's so many other reasons it's appalling that he's president. But I think so many of us thought that Access Hollywood confession would be it. How naive, re hearing the audio of Billy Bush laughing, I found really sickening. And I just wanna put a call out there if there's any men listening to us, don't be that guy. Right? don't laugh at those jokes. Be like, what, what, what are you talking about? Like, okay, women often smile and laugh when someone tells an uncomfortable joke, right? We do this because we're trying to, survive or be the cool girl or whatever. Right? Not get fired, not be labeled as cold or difficult, all that stuff. But I think probably men do the same thing, I, can't be in Billy Bush's mind, but I think sometimes men will laugh along with an uncomfortable locker room joke because they don't know what to do, right? So I, I kind of feel like schools should be teaching kids kind of roleplaying, Hey, if you hear this, what do you say? give them a script. Because I think people don't know how to react. And I guess I understand that don't rock the boat feeling. Probably both men and women have.

Caroline:

Yeah, so listening to that audio. I did give the benefit of the doubt, whether right or wrong, where I was like, I kind of, probably myself, I would've laughed either way, because I would've been uncomfortable and I would've been like, I'm at work and this is talent, but

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

So it is different. there's images, and maybe we can include this in our social media or something, but there is three pictures in a row Hey, is trying to watch a baseball game. on the other side of a fence, it's a cartoon. And the first picture is something like a quality. And the fence is really high, and the tallest kid can see, and the middle kid can kind of see on his toes, and the shortest kid can't. then, they all have the same height stool, which means two of the kids can see in one can't or something like that. And then equity is like, everyone has the stand that they need so that they can see, you know, and there is a power hierarchy, There's a gender hierarchy, there's all these other. Social aspects at play that do mean that it is fair for us to assume it's different for them than it would be for me and you in these situations. You

Anne:

Mm

Caroline:

in my opinion,

Anne:

Well, Billy Bush, at least temporarily went down for that. I see. Like coming back. So many of these men come back.

Caroline:

all come back. They, I

Anne:

I don't know.

Caroline:

CCK is doing fucking comedy to like sold out. I, I don't understand.

Anne:

How many of the women, assaulted by Harvey Weinstein came back? Not as many as the men doing the assaulting. I do think it's kind of unfair that Michael Cohen is in prison for keeping Trump's indiscretions a secret, but Trump is still president. I'd be so pissed. Like, I did this for you. I covered up your crime and you haven't been punished for that crime. But I have. How is that right? Yep. so is there anything else we needed to say about. Matt Lauer. Oh. I listened to an episode of a podcast, Katie Couric's podcast, interviewing Pharaoh, and I thought it was interesting. I was waiting for her to bring up her own experiences with Matt Lauer because he was talking about it a lot. There's footage of her saying, old footage of her saying that his most annoying habit was pinching her on the ass. But at the time that was just, oh, guys, being guys, it's playful. But nobody wants that at work. Nobody wants their ass pinched while they're working. and they worked together for 15 years. So I feel like she has more to say on that, that she wasn't saying in this interview. You know, I guess she stopped working with him in 2006. Maybe he ramped up the abuse of power as he became more powerful. But I was a little like, come on, Katie. Spill the beans.

Caroline:

are litigious af as we saw in this book, and

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

she just doesn't wanna get sued

Anne:

I,

Caroline:

Like legal fees and the burden of proof falls on the woman most of the time, maybe that's

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

that's my best guess.

Anne:

she has a memoir where I think she does, she does condemn him, but she is one of the people who says she didn't know, and maybe that's true,

Caroline:

I so

Anne:

right?

Caroline:

about Meryl.

Anne:

Well, yeah. I mean, again, maybe she didn't know, I don't know. But when we hear about how open it was, in, for example, 30 Rock, in 30 Rock, Jenna Maroney, my favorite narcissist. Um, where is it? I wrote the quote down, in 2012. She says, I'm not afraid of anyone in show business. I turned down intercourse with Harvey Weinstein on no less than three occasions out of five, people knew, right? So if Tina Faye knew, if the writers of 30 Rock knew, how did Meryl Streep not know?

Caroline:

I mean, she's not even an actress. she's a musician,

Anne:

I saw some accusations that this 30 rock joke was crass. do you think? Brave or crass? I think it's brave.

Caroline:

I think it's

Anne:

I,

Caroline:

I don't know why it would be individually crass out of any other joke.

Anne:

Tina Faye was using what little power she had as a as a TV writer, risking his wrath, which we know is, humongous by explicitly calling him out for pressuring women to have sex. And you know, all those, yeah. I think Tina Faye was doing what little she could to call it out. So I think brave, not crass. Well let's talk about the heroes. I think we should start with the women, I've seen anywhere between 80 and 107. catch and kill you know, barely skims the surface of the number of women that this man has impacted. And it's probably more than that because not everyone would've come forward, right? How many women haven't come forward? How many had their careers destroyed and just were like, I'm out.

Caroline:

It was very, I think hurtful, familiar, demoralizing, and sad to hear the different phrases that were used to validate or justify behaviors. she misunderstood. There's like denial and then there's the humiliation angle too, which I think is just so incredibly hurtful where it is just like, I wouldn't hit that type of type of vocabulary,

Anne:

Yes. Yeah,

Caroline:

God, it's, it's really just sad. I don't know. Sad.

Anne:

it certainly is. I think we've talked about this before, how easy it is to smear a woman and yeah. And how difficult it is to make a powerful man pe Let's talk about Rose McGowan. do you remember thinking she was like a bitch in the nineties? Do you remember like hearing that

Caroline:

she was a bitch, but I do remember thinking she was like, Courtney love, like alternative

Anne:

outta control wild? Yeah, I remember thinking, oh, she's Marilyn Manson's girlfriend. You know, she was this like kind of wild nightmare of a person, You know, and again, I'm not saying she didn't have some wild notes to, so, but we were being manipulated by that Hollywood machine, most likely because of Weinstein. And, listening to her being interviewed now, she's so articulate, she's so smart, she's so brave, you know, to use what little power she had as this disparaged actress, cast as a liar to speak up anyway, some of the important points she makes are, she says the war against women is real. Breaking the glass ceiling is not a one-off thing. You have to punch through it more than once. She points out that he has deprived the world of great art because how many women were either blacklisted or, you know, I guess self deported from Hollywood because they had a bad interaction with him.

Caroline:

Mm-hmm.

Anne:

You I've heard, I don't know about so much in his defense, but in the defense of these women's careers going nowhere that like, well, a lot of actors go nowhere, it's hard to make it, you know, there's plenty of actors who just disappear, but like, it's a lot harder to make it, if you've got one of the biggest studio heads blacklisting you what a wake of destroyed careers. And, and it goes beyond the careers, right? Like suicide attempts, eating disorders, depression, anxiety, PTSD. even I have this image in my head now that I can't get out of Harvey Weinstein opening the door in a white bathroom holding a bottle of lotion and it's sickening. And these women actually experience that. It's so gross.

Caroline:

and to your point, you know, I think relationship to Marilyn Manson was part of the impression I had on her as well. And what do we know now? that he was also abusive,

Anne:

And she grew up in a cult. Did you know that?

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

She talks about how there's this huge percentage of people who who grew up in a cult who end up back in a cult. And that she was like, that's so sad for those people not realizing she was one of them in Hollywood, that Hollywood is a cult and that you are accepting certain behaviors because you've been indoctrinated.

Caroline:

And I think also, the most jarring aspect of what that double agent, the spy, or whatever said about her was that she was so trusting,

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

so sad to, I can't think of a better word than that, to hear that it's

Anne:

it's cruel. Yeah. To take advantage of her like that. Well, we've already mentioned Amber Gutierrez. Rosanna Arquette, who recalls coming down, I think the elevator after rejecting Weinstein and just knowing that's it. It's over for me. It, she was right. there's Ashley Judd, Asia Argento, Lucia Evans, I think her name was whom he forced oral sex on. And in episode six of the Catch and Kill podcast, she tells her story and she's just sobbing. And it is so sad, and both Asia and Lucia talk about at some point just giving in to get through it. And I think a lot of us have been there

Caroline:

think

Anne:

doing what you need to do to survive the encounter.

Caroline:

I, I would be stretched to think of a person I know who hasn't been there. just. in because it's easier.

Anne:

Yep. Meyer Sorvino, Darrel Hannah, even Gwyneth Paltrow, Hollywood Royalty talks about an uncomfortable moment. She's in an interview and she says that Weinstein will, will coerce you to do a thing or two. and he pulled his massage act on her. it obviously didn't impact her career, but isn't there a story that Brad Pitt like went down and like told him off or something? another big Hollywood actor who knew and he protected his own girlfriends, but he didn't come out and say, this guy's doing this regularly. Somebody needs to stop him.

Caroline:

we know he's got plenty of negative checks on the good, bad boxes.

Anne:

Yes. And those are just the women with famous names and there's more of them with famous names. Like so many people would've left the industry before they ever became a name on our radar. Then there's Emily Nestor, who wasn't assaulted, but he offered her basically a mentorship in exchange for sex, made it very clear he was connected and could ruin her. He drove her away from the entertainment industry. There's Rowena Chu, his assistant, Zelda Perkins. They both, quit hired lawyers. And, this brings up like the villains thing. they talk about how Harvey Weinstein wasn't the only monster in the room that they felt like their own lawyers were acting to protect him, which ties in with Amber Story about the da acting like an advocate. you know, I'm not a legal scholar perhaps for many individuals. taking the NDA is in their best interest. You know, they're protecting women from the anguish of coming forward, perhaps. I don't know. But they say, they were very pressured to take the NDA and the settlement. You know, at best, those lawyers were trying to get the best outcome for their individual clients. But at worst, they're in the pocket of the most powerful men in receiving pressure themselves. perhaps it's just numbers, maybe a quick settlement so that they can move on to the next case is better than a long legal war with people who can't afford to pay the bills. But yeah, so many women were impacted and nobody was on their side.

Caroline:

I wanna take this one moment just to mention a totally unrelated topic, which is the documentary episode, train wreck, poop cruise only to

Anne:

Okay.

Caroline:

only for the purpose of this legal document aspect, which is people who were buying their tickets for this cruise that ended up having all of this chaos. and hopefully you're aware of this poop cruise, this ship that lost power and was lost at sea and there was poop everywhere. Anyway, you buy a ticket, the fine print says like, there is no guarantee with buying this ticket that you will have a vessel that guarantees safe passage, healthy food, that you'll reach your destination. You, you know, like of these things have these terms and conditions that, nobody understands or bothers to read, but also like the worst case is just written in legalese such that you don't really understand that you're saying, I'm gonna buy this ticket even though you promised me nothing. And when I get abandoned at sea for days with no food and no electricity and no toilets and nothing sanitary, no safe passage that I can't sue you after. of course these women don't know what they

Anne:

There's so much legalese that we don't understand, and it only takes one incident of bad luck to be thrown into that and have no recourse. just regarding the women, Jennifer Sr. And Atlantic Writer said, these women need to hold hands and jump. And I love that metaphor I'm so grateful to the women who did speak out and proud of them for their bravery. we all need to stand together and that when enough victims, survivors tell their stories, there's this tipping point from denial and defense of the perpetrator to condemning. And the media eventually switches aside, probably purely outta self-interest, but it does happen when that balance of power shifts, which is what I'm hoping will ultimately happen with Trump. but I've been burned before,

Caroline:

Yeah.

Anne:

yeah, All right. Should we talk about Ronan the narrator hero of this story? he went to college at 11. Did you know that?

Caroline:

No. 11.

Anne:

He's the Doogie Hauser of journalism. He went to college at 11 and Yale Law at 15. What were you doing at 15?

Caroline:

don't even wanna say on record.

Anne:

Nothing of value, right? Smarty Pants, and I think he looks like the Prince of a made up European country in a Hallmark movie

Caroline:

Or your favorite movie. Frozen.

Anne:

or frozen. Yes. Yes. He could be. Definitely a Maine and frozen for sure. Elsa's brother.

Caroline:

Do you

Anne:

Um,

Caroline:

is really his dad? Because, sorry, Ronan. I don't

Anne:

no.

Caroline:

No,

Anne:

Have you seen Frank Sinatra? Have you seen Woody El? Yeah.

Caroline:

is, I mean, come on, come on.

Anne:

Yeah. It's, it's surprising. I guess he must be protecting his mother because it's surprising he doesn't wanna admit to that, given that he hates Woody Allen's guts. From what I can tell. And I, I don't know. It must be her secret to keep I,

Caroline:

I myself have not understood why he wouldn't be willing to say, but it's not our business really. I just, you know,

Anne:

yeah.

Caroline:

is such garbage. Not that Sinatra was not garbage also, but like Woody Allen is, quite despicable and Ronan like, you're, you're a pretty guy. You look, you look good.

Anne:

He's still pretty. Yes. I used to hear a lot about how Pretty Ronan is because I was a religious listener of Love It or Leave It and Pod Save America back in the, and he was dating, John Lovet at the time they were engaged.

Caroline:

like my number one note was actually like, what do you mean you were a religious listener? Like you love, that's your favorite podcast? No.

Anne:

basically, now I listen to kind of like the most random things because I listen to stuff around the periphery of whatever we're preparing for. Recently I've listened to the Catch and Kill podcast and, I've started listening to podcasts about our next piece of media, so I don't religiously listen to love it or leave it anymore. but I did go to see him live recently, which was so fun, so for those who, people dunno, John Lovett is a former Obama staffer. Part of the Pod Save America network. he has a podcast, which is a game show, called, love It or Leave It. And it is really fun and hilarious. And they tape live in LA so I saw, uh, John Zamo when I was there. And so I just highly, highly recommend it. And it was really sad for me when they broke up.

Caroline:

one. Love it. Or leave it Podcast fan that I know. I've never listened.

Anne:

Oh, you would love it. It's great. I should get back into it. when I last went to LA to visit my sister, I, she said, what do you wanna do? Because we've done all the touristy things at one time or another and I was like, I would love to go see a live screening of Love It or Leave It. And she made that happen for me. So it was great.

Caroline:

to your delayed

Anne:

I. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. We weren't even planning on going and then our flight was like three hours delayed and she bought tickets at like the last minute. okay. So Ronan Pharaoh, I listened to him on the beginning of an Amy Poer Good hang, which was one of your past palate cleansers. describes himself as a broken person from a broken home. what happened in his childhood home with Woody Allen is frozen and amber and has obviously impacted his life. Not a conflict of interest, you know, I think it has made him more empathetic. And also, he told Dylan at one point and he admits this, that to kind of move past it and get over it. And so I think this brings us into this theme that we keep coming back to of atonement, he made a mistake, he didn't support his sister as well as he could have, and now he is, you know, maybe trying to make that right. again, not a conflict of interest, but a reason. He's the right sort of person for this reporting.

Caroline:

and I feel like he reflected that well in the book. he talks about the relationship as sort of strained and he does totally own up to the fact that he didn't do the right thing. I really respect the, the very rare, very exceedingly in these current times when you could just be like, yeah, I did something shitty. You know, like, and I

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

that. And here's the reason I did that at that time. And I am not saying that to excuse it. And it does not mean it's okay. And I am sorry, and I'll take the rep for it. I, I feel like we never get that from any public figure,

Anne:

As opposed to Oppenheim who covered being on the wrong side of history. I think Ronan is very brave to have continued and not given up. You know, I think a lot of people would've just been like, well, my bosses said no. all the pressure he experienced, like he was being followed, he was told to go get a gun, to put his, his evidence in a safety deposit box, stuff like that. He says he lost weight, he felt depressed. It, it impacted his relationship, cried a lot. So it's really admirable that he didn't give up given the pressure he was being put under.

Caroline:

those weather app notifications, that was all that spy situation.

Anne:

Well, they do talk about how if you say yes or no, or if you respond to one of those those notifications, that somehow it can hack your phone. So I think he thinks that's probably what was going on. I don't know if he has proof. Well, Pharaoh succeeded in getting this news to print, there are plenty of other journalists who really tried who didn't get there. in his acknowledgements, Pharaoh talks about Ken Oleta, who was the New Yorker journalist who tried, he calls him a prince among men. He reported earlier on Weinstein, but couldn't make it stick. There's Ben Wallace, Jody Kor Kim Master, who is a Hollywood reporter. Who, according to the podcast, has said some pretty brave things to Weinstein's face. So there's just this strong contrast between these people of principle and the predators and people who protect them out of self-interest and greed. Oh, and I forgot to mention David Ramnik, the editor in chief of The New Yorker, who recognize that Pharaoh had a story unlike the Lily LDS spineless executives at NBC.

Caroline:

also think that Ronan's, internal monologue, I guess we'll call it when he gets to the New Yorker about anticipating disappointment, it's his trauma response to all the gaslighting that he was getting it NBC, it, it

Anne:

was being de

Caroline:

really felt, Like a very good live depiction of, emotional trauma victim of talking about their anticipation whenever they're dealing with that situation with a different person and their shock complete and utter shock to a person who's behaving normally.

Anne:

Yeah. another hero is McHugh Ronan's producer. You mentioned him earlier.

Caroline:

Yeah. I liked him.

Anne:

I liked him a lot. Yeah. He talks about watching Oppenheimer. Sorry, keep wanna call him Oppenheimer Oppenheim. Yeah. It's so hard not to add the ear oppenheim scramble to cover up the cover up or the killing of the story. And that being one of like the angriest moments in his life. But he still had to go to work the next day. Like, that's so tough.

Caroline:

Ronan does a good job of mentioning like, mEq has a family and a life and like a mortgage to pay. You know, like they have other stakes that they're trying to balance against it, whether right or wrong, and it is important to mention it

Anne:

Some of the women had an ongoing public relationship with Weinstein because they had to, right? It was their job and that that is used to exonerate him. So McHugh like he has to keep a roof over his kids' heads. Right? And so he has to kind of balance doing the right thing by his, what was it? Four daughters. Three daughter. Four daughters. I think doing the right thing by them in this greater world we're living in. by how holding bad men accountable, but also like staying employed, but he did the right thing and I looked him up. He's a correspondent for News Nation, so it looks like he came out. All right. He's not unemployed. I think my last big hero is Igor Ostrovsky.

Caroline:

yeah. my very first note is introduction of two Eastern European PIs a little too close to home. Quote eyebrows, almost invisible and unruly curly hair.

Anne:

Are you referring to your own un really curly, curly hair.

Caroline:

invisible eyebrows.

Anne:

Okay. There you go. Well, I love this guy. we are a society raised on Cold War error thrillers, so we've been conditioned to believe that the shadowy guy with the Russian accent is the villain, but he's not like he, you know, he, he had a job, he was following people, but he believed in free press and, he came forward and he contacted Ronan and was like, what, what we were doing is wrong. And you should know, there was a time where I was thinking like, is Black Cube just like really bad at their jobs? Because, they were following the wrong guys at time. I felt like they were kind of shitty at being a clandestine operation, but I guess we only know this story, right? We don't know all the people that they followed, that they didn't get caught following. And we only know that because Igor had, Jiminy Cricket sitting on his shoulder being like, no, no, no. This is not the right way to behave.

Caroline:

is he the one who emailed this? No, there was a woman it, there was a woman who emailed the stuff to Ronan.

Anne:

Yes. I can't remember much about her.

Caroline:

anonymous.

Anne:

anything in my notes. Oh, okay. Maybe that's why I can't remember.

Caroline:

like number one hero is this woman, who emailed the stuff right after that Ronan thought came from those two guys. that really led to all of this coming out.

Anne:

Yeah. So the, the secondary story, right? It's not just about the assaults and the rapes. The harassment. It's about the coverup.

Caroline:

that the investigative unit, that she was giving all the,

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

all the people who knew, which led to that guy who owned up to himself, whose name I also can't remember'cause my notes are gone.

Anne:

Okay. what do you think is the most disturbing part for you? I,

Caroline:

Trump was reelected, hopefully someday, we'll no longer be president, but who on earth knows.

Anne:

I have two things. there's the forced oral sex, and the perception that some people have that that's not as bad as right when it is extremely traumatizing and invasive. that misconception needs to be corrected. and also what's in the box to quote seven, what gut shredded, what don't we know? what we don't know might be worse.

Caroline:

bet it is.

Anne:

Yeah. Let's talk about some of the deeper horrors. We've already talked about the misconception that a continued relationship exonerates. that women have been trained to smile and be nice. And, you know, I can't count the number of times I've smiled, kind of wly in the presence of a man making me uncomfortable. So that that's another misconception that needs to be corrected, that if you still have contact with your rapist, that you consented in some way. for me it would've been someone with far less power, maybe a pervy customer at a bar I was working at, or a manager trading shifts for sex. I did not indulge that. I did actually walk out of a restaurant once I quit on the spot, because that was happening. but you still have to go through work, go to work, you have to get through your shift.

Caroline:

two days as a hostess at one restaurant because of this.

Anne:

there are more, many more Harveys in our midst said Melissa Launer and NBC producer who accused Lauer of exposing himself. And I think this is so true. Most of them won't fall publicly, but you know, there's the restaurant manager, the boss, there's so many people who do this at a smaller scale

Caroline:

Yes, absolutely. I also think the number of people who can hear these, you know, she got the wrong idea. It's locker room talk. Boys will be boys. And I think that applies to something like this. To hear that audio and have people excuse it away in a corporate setting And know that doing that only further validates other people, pushing the limits of what is okay to do and, say, and a, a way to treat another human being just, is very upsetting.

Anne:

another deeper horror is something that came up in the spotlight episode. NDAs, Rowena Chu, for example, couldn't explain to future employees why she left Weinstein's employment after a month because of the NDA. So it looked like maybe she did something wrong and then she couldn't get work. Ultimately, Miramax rehired her, which Harvey Weinstein wanted to do because it makes it look like all is forgiven. She needed the money, she had no choice. So it looks like she exonerated her victimizer in the court of public opinion. So, again, I'm not a lawyer. There are probably a number of reasons that NDAs are important and we need them as a legal device, but when it comes to covering up serial sexual assault or harassment, so the perpetrator can do it again, something's gotta change.

Caroline:

of NDAs is like IP secrets and like that free market's supposed to work on both sides. It's not supposed to be like entirely tipped towards the corporate side. You should also have a good place to work and stuff. Like, I don't know why it's not okay to have it be. Kind of equal in that effect. But, I agree. NDAs, all of these legal agreements, the legal system being something you can just, threaten and use all this money because the thing is that the New Yorker could afford his threats, right? But like, I couldn't, if those were sent to me, I couldn't

Anne:

yeah,

Caroline:

the right lawyer to defend me.

Anne:

yeah. There were times where, you know, as NBC was, tying Pharaoh's hands, I started to think like, well just put it on YouTube. put it on TikTok. has all this information. But then I realized, okay, the legal ramifications, if he's not protected by a news organization, you are individually liable and Harvey Weinstein will come after you.

Caroline:

I was listening to some, you know, him being like, I'm not represented by this or that, and you're like, well, you're Mia Pharaoh's son. You know, like, how hard up for cash could you be being a Pharaoh, and an Alan technically,

Anne:

Another deeper horror is the need for the perfect victim slash the perfect journalist, Rose McGowan was told you did a sex scene, so nobody's gonna believe you. Amber Gutierrez showed up at one of, um, brother Scon parties, so clearly she's a sex worker, right? if you have any slight indiscretion in your past, it will be used against you.

Caroline:

that also that woman who then ended up statutory raping a A boy in California later in the book, also lost from my notes. But they talk about how victims do often become perpetrators and they understand

Anne:

Yep.

Caroline:

but it doesn't mean they were never victims. Like it doesn't mean they're absolved of their actions, but they were also victims before that. And that's worth pursuing.

Anne:

another deeper horror is I think how little has changed or perhaps gotten worse. I remember when Me Too Happened, when people started sharing their Me Too stories. I felt swept up and really inspired in that moment. It was this triumphant reckoning where everybody was jumping together and everybody's coming forward. And I remember thinking, I'm so happy my daughter gets to grow up in a Post Me Too world. And that all this stuff that our generation and previous generations endured will no longer be tolerated. And I was wrong. It's not only tolerated, it's celebrated in some circles.

Caroline:

Oh boy. Yeah,

Anne:

Are we getting too depressing?

Caroline:

I

Anne:

Um,

Caroline:

it's reality, you know?

Anne:

yeah. should we talk about the Clintons and Epstein or No?

Caroline:

I mean, I don't know that we can add value to the conversation other than I know we are very heavily anti-Trump on this podcast. I don't want it to be assumed that we think the Clintons or any other elected official on the Democratic side is immune from scrutiny. I don't think this is a bipartisan

Anne:

you know, Pharaoh talks about working on some foreign policy book at the time, and he had an interview with with Hillary Clinton set up and she backed away. And maybe that's just a coincidence, but if not, why is Pharaoh working on a story about Harvey Weinstein? A concern for her, right? Like, why did she become reticent? I don't like to blame women for the actions of their partners, but if Hillary Clinton is involved in this coverup because she wanted donations from Harvey Weinstein or because she didn't wanna get dragged down with her husband for his indiscretions, I don't care if she goes down. I voted for Hillary. I was with her. But women need to not turn a blind eye to this sort of thing and be part of the coverup. Don't be the Lisa Bloom here.

Caroline:

agree.

Anne:

I think my last deeper horror that I wanted to mention was the need for free press and not colluding, which has come up in Jaws. It's come up in our spotlight episode. You know, and you know, this is a spectrum, right? Like, will we ever get to an absolutely free and unbiased press? I don't think so, right? Everybody has a bias. But then there are some places where journalists are actually getting killed. Like, Jamal Khashoggi and I think there's a Black Cube spy link to the hacking of his phone. I can't remember the exact details, but like we've got murdering and jailing journalists on the extreme end of the the spectrum. And we've got pure and unbiased news on the other, and we need to be moving more towards that end. Which is especially important given the rhetoric Trump is using about the press and enemy, the people stuff like journalists could get murdered here.

Caroline:

I mean, elected officials have been murdered here very recently, so.

Anne:

Yeah. Okay. Do you have any criticism?

Caroline:

it's very silly. The only thing I haven't already covered is when you're listening to the audio book, Ronan does accents all the characters,

Anne:

Oh, I haven't listened to that.

Caroline:

my husband also listened, he and I were both like, the Italian accent is terrible. Like there were all these accents that were,

Anne:

Joey doing an Italian accent.

Caroline:

Perez. That's about it. Like every, and I enjoyed

Anne:

To be honest, that sounds excruciating.

Caroline:

his Rosie

Anne:

Okay.

Caroline:

am not gonna say it's good, but it was fun to listen to.

Anne:

It's not good. Okay.

Caroline:

would say you don't need to do the accents, good. Yeah, I mean, I wanna do that when I'm reading to my kids too. Like, I get it, but No, you don't need to.

Anne:

one of my criticisms, and this is maybe more of a me problem than a him problem, but when I'm reading something complex with a lot of players, I really struggle to keep everybody straight, particularly the baddies at NBC, the various lawyers, so I think a book like this should have a central section with pictures like a yearbook. All these people. I love a book with pictures in the middle.

Caroline:

Or just like, uh, index, I remember when I used to read like Dsky or something, I would, write down on a piece of,

Anne:

look at that little humble brag.

Caroline:

in high school for school

Anne:

Okay, so you were forced? Yeah.

Caroline:

when I was by school, forced to read some author where the names I didn't recognize that I would take a piece of paper and just write the names down and be like, dude, who owns the building? You know, like, dude who killed the guy,

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

know, like, uh, that would've been helpful.

Anne:

I found some of the time jumps a little confusing as well'cause he kind of goes out of order throughout the book. But overall I thought it was a great read. I did read an article in the New York Times called Is Ronan Pharaoh Too Good To Be True. That does pick up on a few inaccuracies and exaggerations, not in what Weinstein did, but in terms of corroboration of certain testimonies, which felt very picky. But I do see their point that we need high standards for good journalism. And I think, you know, they talk a lot about the fact checking that went on, so they also accused him of centering himself in the narrative when often investigative journalists fade into the background. But, I don't mind any of that. He nailed a predator and exposed a greater issue, so I still put him in the hero category, but we can link that, article in the show notes if anyone wants an alternative perspective.

Caroline:

critique because normally I hate that. I am not a fan of like, directors who put themselves in the movie or people who, make themselves the son, or I'm always a little suspicious of that. And I wasn't of Ronan,

Anne:

I find him very likable. any survival tips?

Caroline:

it's so hard. men do better, I, I was gonna say this for recommendations, but there's a very good, bit by a standup comedian called Daniel Sauce. He's Scottish and he talks about a friend of his who was raped, by a friend of his, and he talks about the way that he failed, the ways that he has failed, and the ways that people often think, as long as I'm not doing it, I'm not part of the problem. If you're in a position of the higher power group in any situation, it's not enough to just not be the person doing the thing. And he does a really, it, I mean, it's like a, just a few minutes of your time. You can find it on anything.

Anne:

All right, we'll put a link in the show notes. Other than choose the Bear. Um, but okay. Just this morning I was at my dog park, which is like a field surrounded by trees. I was the only one there. It was early, you know, it was like 6:00 AM and there's this man standing on the tree lined path. So there's trees, like I have to walk right past him, and he's got binoculars and he's birdwatching. And my first thought was that that birdwatching is a ploy. He could be trying to make himself look non-threatening, but I had to walk right past him to get to the dog park entrance. And again, nothing happened. He was a bird watcher. But I spent the entire time at the dog park with my body angled so that I could keep an eye on him. And this is the way women are forced to think, to deal with the predators in our world. so I don't wanna say anything victim blamey here, Like, I don't wanna say, don't go to a meeting with a man because Rose McGowan should have felt safe in that hotel. She should have been safe in that hotel room. But if something does happen, tell somebody right away. Put it in writing, because so often allegations are corroborated with, well, did she talk to anyone at the time? So keep those doors open. even if you think I'm never gonna talk about this, you might want that door open in case you wanna talk about it in the future.

Caroline:

Yeah, I think, that's just the way women have to exist, like what you just described. I don't leave the. even with my big dogs without mace, with me.

Anne:

Yeah.

Caroline:

the way we exist. And you think, how could you feel shame? You're the victim. I know that when the one in that position, you do feel shame because you do feel like it's your fault. Because why didn't you bring your v mace that day? Or whatever, you're immediately thinking,

Anne:

Why didn't you fight harder? Why didn't you say no another time? You know, like all that stuff.

Caroline:

even though you didn't wanna give him head,

Anne:

Why were you wearing that?

Caroline:

you're doing what you needed to do to survive in that moment. Write it down, tell some, I mean, Kavanaugh had his whole diary, right? There's no reason why you can't have yours.

Anne:

Okay. Pallet cleanser

Caroline:

On TikTok, a recent trend people who are filming, other people trying to run with the same arm and the same leg going at the same time. It is actually a lot harder than you think. So

Anne:

that sounds so silly.

Caroline:

I have, I, we watch this with each of my kids and then I try to make them do it. I try to do it. It's very hard. So highly encourage. And then you know, we are in the podcast vacuum. And today in our actual world, Taylor Swift and Travis Kelsey got engaged. So congratulations to them and all of the people who are happy about that. And if you're not happy about that, just keep it to yourself. not actually your

Anne:

Yeah,

Caroline:

don't worry about it.

Anne:

celebrate Love or leave it alone.

Caroline:

So I said my Daniel Slots recommendation. Also, the comedian t Nataro who became famous by the HIA have Cancer standup, that was first on, Louis c Kay's website. She created a, series called One Mississippi that is semi semi autobiographical. And there are scenes that cover a guy who behaves like Lucy Kay behaves, I felt like was very brave. In addition, there's, a lot of that this book made me think of, about trying to move forward with a corrupt situation. Like The Wire, which we've talked about. After reading this, I did start to Google like. what are the best feature articles from the New Yorker, from Vanity Fair, from Vogue? are some great magazines that have great features that have been groundbreaking in, in many, many ways. So I would recommend looking those things up and then reading through those articles, in ways where Hollywood can be deceiving. the Seven Dresses of Evelyn Hugo, I thought was interesting as like behind the scenes situations in

Anne:

Seven husbands. Yeah, that's a good book. I like that.

Caroline:

down Evelyn Hugo.

Anne:

She probably had seven dresses too.

Caroline:

I hope, I mean, who cares? Yeah. the, government and people are lying to you, uh, X-Files, when this article finally came down, came out, it came out, it didn't came out when this article finally came out. I thought of cruel intentions. The movie, the end scene when they're all reading the thing.

Anne:

I don't remember how that ends. I remember liking the movie, but yeah,

Caroline:

whatever. Uh, cruel intent, the end scene. another great book about corrupt politicians and Danger

Anne:

I.

Caroline:

Out is say nothing. it talks about the troubles in Northern Ireland, when you mention and or I also thought of Bad batch, which has similar themes about political messages or PR messages to support a certain side over another. And then I also happened to read a book at one point called Life Undercover Coming of Age in the CIA, which is just a woman's memoir about being like a 20 something operative, which I thought was pretty fascinating. So those are mine.

Anne:

Okay, let's see. Well, I've mentioned 30 Rock because they were making jokes about Harvey Weinstein long before this Open Secret was fully out. I also recommend the Catch and Kill podcast that goes along with the book. it is confronting because you can hear, you know, women actually crying about their stories. but it also is very inspirational. I think it's episode nine. he thanks all the survivors, the journalists, the insiders who came forward, who broke the culture of silence, and it was really quite, it gave me chills in a good way. if you wanna hear more from Ronan, on an episode of Smart Less with Will Arnett, Jason Bateman and Sean Hayes. Have you ever listened to that?

Caroline:

the Amy Poer episode.

Anne:

Okay. I'd heard of this podcast, but I've never actually listened and it was just a delight to hear their voices because Arrested Development is like one of my comfort shows. I've seen it many, many times and I just love hearing Will Arnett talk.

Caroline:

didn't know Amy Poer

Anne:

Um,

Caroline:

on that episode, so it's, it's good to, it's good

Anne:

um,

Caroline:

shock,

Anne:

I love that they're still friends. I think that's beautiful. for conspiracies in general, try the podcast stuff they don't want you to know. For movies, there's the Pelican Brief, the Insider Stranger Things has a coverup element to it. It's coming out soon. We're, we're gonna cover some of it in the not too distant future. Support Rose McGowan and the other actresses who, were impacted by this. So you could go back and watch Scream She's Iconic in that garage door scene.

Caroline:

Annabell Shira, one of the victims that kind of denies being a victim in the book. And then later, like the hand that r the Cradle. I am not a horror fan and I love that movie. I love it. I think it's,

Anne:

No, I've never seen it. I should watch it.

Caroline:

do, we should do it

Anne:

Put it on the long, long list.

Caroline:

I

Anne:

Okay.

Caroline:

these victims, just like I said, go look up best articles, support, Rosanna Arquette or all these other people who have spoken out in whatever way you, you can.

Anne:

Absolutely. Yeah. Have you seen the morning show?

Caroline:

No, I, uh, haven't watched enough Apple tv, but I've heard good things.

Anne:

I haven't watched it either. when I started it, I was in the mood for a comedy and then I was like 20 minutes in like, oh, this isn't funny. This is about a Matt Lauer kind of situation. And I didn't pick it up again, but I have heard it's good. So I'm interested, Have you seen Promising young woman? Oh my God, it's so good. it's about a woman who's friend was raped and she is basically seeking revenge and it is

Caroline:

Hmm,

Anne:

awesome. It's so powerful. If you've just discovered our podcast, go back to episode five where we cover Tom McCarthy's spotlight, which is another story of journalists uncovering sexual assault and coverups. I mentioned the podcast. Love It or Leave It very funny. Political Quiz Show podcast with great guests. And of course we have to find a reason to throw in mean girls. And I'm gonna say that pretending to be friends with someone when you're not really friends with them the way Diana Philip did with Rose McGowan is a good reason to go back and watch Mean Girls.

Caroline:

Yeah. There were a lot of things that I was like, we can't recommend, I don't know what we do in the shows every single episode. You know, like I was just sort of like that kind of thing.

Anne:

I think Mean Girls and what we do in the shadows are our most recommended things. And maybe 30 Rock. We've talked about 30 Rock a lot.

Caroline:

Arrested Development a lot, I think as well.

Anne:

well, I think it's time for our homework assignment. I had been trying to decide between Rosemary's baby because of Mia. Pharaoh is rein's mom and the gothic short story, the yellow wallpaper, which is really about gaslighting. because the yellow wallpaper is so short, Caroline is being super nice and letting me do two picks in a row, and I will owe her a true crime doubleheader at some point in the future. So next week read the yellow wallpaper by Charlotte Perkins Gilman. You can either find a PDF of it or you can, I like. Trev Downey's podcast, the Great Stories. He reads it and he's got a really delightful accent. So that's an easy way to access it. And then the following week will be Rosemary's Baby. Alright. Thanks for listening. Please do all the things podcasters ask you to do, like and subscribe. Follow us on Instagram or Facebook. Tell a friend write a review on iTunes. You can email us at Drawn to Darkness pod@gmail.com and follow us At Drawn to Darkness Pod on Instagram. If like Shirley Jackson, you delight in what you fear, join us in two weeks here at Drawn to Darkness. Special shout out to Nancy Ano who painted our cover art. You can find her on Instagram at Nancy ano and to Harry Kidd for our intro and outro music. You can find him on Instagram at Harry J. Kidd, and he's also on Spotify.

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