13 - Unknown Number - The High School Catfish by Skye Borgman

In this “around the water cooler special,” we break from our usual schedule to talk about the Netflix documentary Unknown Number, a story so shocking it has everyone buzzing, so we just had to talk about it too!

The case begins in 2020 in tiny Beal City, Michigan, where 12-year-olds Owen and Lauren were the town’s golden couple. But their sweet small-town romance turned into a nightmare when they became the targets of a relentless campaign of vile and anonymous text messages. What started as cruel taunts to break them up escalated into a torrent of harassment aimed at Lauren—mocking her body, attacking her self-worth, and urging her to kill herself. In this episode, we discuss the small-town dynamics that trapped these kids under a microscope, the true-crime tropes, and the monstrous betrayal at the heart of this story.  This episode explores not just the horror of the crime, but the deeper horror of what happens when technology allows a perpetrator inescapable access into our lives. 

Spoiler and content warning: We'll include discussion of sexually explicit texts involving minors bullying, cyber bullying, reference to eating disorders and suicide and abusive parents. We'll also be spoiling it, so stay off social media and watch Unknown Number ASAP!

Palate Cleanser: @heartthrobanderson for the best snark and season one of Stranger Things. Could those kids be any cuter?

Recommendations:

Abducted in Plain Sight (also by Skye Borgman, the same director as Unknown Number)

All the teen dramas: 90210, Dawson's Creek, the OC, Laguna Beach, the Hills, Gossip Girl, My So-Called Life, and Euphoria (if you like your teenage drama grim)

Serial and The Wire for phone forensics.

Our previous episodes Carrie and The Act  for bad moms and Sweet Bobby for another shocking catfish story.

The Anxious Generation by Jonathon Haidt if you're concerned about phones.

American Vandal - please, please, watch this. It parodies this exact style of documentary and is hilarious. #whodrewthedicks

Mean Girls - you know why.

Homework:

Catch and Kill: Lies, Spies, and a Conspiracy to Protect Predators by Ronan Farrow coming out next week. Start reading or listening to the audiobook or listen to the podcast. 

Special thanks to Nancy Azano for our cover art (Instagram: @nancyazano) and to Harry Kidd for our opening score (Instagram: @harryjkidd) 

Transcript

Anne: 0:10

Welcome back to Drawn To Darkness, a sometimes weekly, sometimes biweekly podcast where we discuss our favorite horror and true crime. If you desperately need someone to process the latest true crime documentary, we're here for you. My name is Annie, and I'll be introducing Caroline to my favorite horror movies, podcast, TV shows and books.

Caroline: 0:26

My name is Caroline and I'll be doing the same from the true crime side of things.

Anne: 0:30

Ellen, I wanted to start with the question what like TV show or true crime documentary other than the one we're about to discuss, have you been most desperate to talk to people about.

Caroline: 0:39

That's such a hard question for me because I feel like I spend so much time documentaries and I constantly wanna talk about. them, and I'm like, definitely the largest consumer that I know of them. But I think probably the jinx, obviously, keepers, and they abducted in plain sight as

Anne: 0:59

I haven't seen that one yet. Abducted in plain sight.

Caroline: 1:01

it's so good. And like Tiger King, you know, just, just a lot of the ones that are just so bizarre, you know, or excessively tragic.

Anne: 1:11

I mean, I think back, I guess to some of those really big hits that broke through like Serial Making a Murderer. I was thinking The Keepers as well. I guess I'm going back kind of further in time to when our attention was like more collective when most people were like watching the same thing because there were fewer things out there. And there's so many things out there that it's, it seems more rare that something breaks through where everybody's talking about And the reason I ask is because today we're going to be discussing Netflix unknown number, which has broken through that fragmentation of media you suggested it, because even our, college girlfriends who aren't into this sort of thing the way we are, we're bringing it up.

Caroline: 1:47

it's been hard for me to go anywhere where somebody doesn't bring it up. I was at the swimming pool, the lifeguards are talking about it. I was at back to school night. The moms were talking about, I mean, it's everywhere I go.

Anne: 2:00

I have not had that experience in Australia. it's only American people I know who are talking about it, but I'm spreading the word. I've been telling people about it since. So we're taking a break from our regularly scheduled programming to sneak this one in. normally we're recording three, four weeks in advance, but we're gonna get this one out as quickly as possible. We're gonna call this our water cooler special because we want to discuss it around the proverbial water cooler. Before we begin,, this documentary and episode. We'll include discussion of sexually explicit texts involving minors bullying, cyber bullying, reference to eating disorders and suicide and abusive parents. And we will be spoiling it. Caroline, why don't you tell us what this is about?

Caroline: 2:39

Okay, it's 2020 the year we'd all rather forget and 12 year olds, Owen and Lauren are the IT couple in their small town of Beal City, Michigan. They're sweet, sporty, and wholesome. And if you ask me maybe a little young to be in a relationship that lasted longer than like two weeks, and let alone such a high profile one. But anyway, in a town of less than 400 people with two bars and not much to do the pair's, golden couple status seemed to be rubbing someone the wrong way evidence when they began to receive a barrage of relentless and shockingly vile text messages while initially targeting the couple with an unfortunately successful campaign to break them up, the horrendous harassment. Began to hone in on Lauren, specifically attacking her physical appearance, mocking her athletic performance, and even encouraging her to take her own life, though mysteriously dormant for an 11 month stretch. The harassment continued day and night for roughly two years. In that time, many other children in the community are also victimized some through potentially fair suspicions and accusations from community members and local authorities Some as far as two hours away simply entering the couple's orbit. Exhausted and deflated both family search for, and campaigned desperately to uncover the person or persons behind the harassment And so eventually with help from the FBI, the shocking truth emerged the culprit had been Lauren's own mother along.

Anne: 4:11

What a twist. Can't make this shit up. Right. It's insane.

Caroline: 4:14

Absolutely

Anne: 4:15

I just said insane. But what adjective would you use to describe the subject matter of this documentary?

Caroline: 4:20

Twisted.

Anne: 4:20

Twisted. Yeah. I, I was thinking monstrous, that you would have to be a monstrous person to do this to your child I have a confession. I knew it was a parent going into it, somehow that had made it into my mind, and also that kind of reveal, they foreshadow it a little bit at the beginning because they kind of focus on parents being too involved. And that was a clue for me, but I did not know it was her mom. When Kendra was being interviewed at the beginning and she's just like talking about how they were trying to find the culprit and how she was supporting her daughter, I just immediately dismissed the possibility that it was her. And yeah, it's absolutely shocking.

Caroline: 4:51

Yeah, I also knew that it was apparent because I had listened to, as I said before, all I consume is this kind of thing. So I had listened to like a dateline or something, and I remembered that it was a parent, but I couldn't remember whose parent. And also there was a Big Vulture article. I think it was that a lot of people who I've heard talking about this have read that came out a while before this. So I don't know how many people were, were as shocked as the many, filmed reactions on TikTok that I've been seeing, are so enjoyable to watch.

Anne: 5:22

Gosh, it's insane. You mentioned that it is COVID era when this started. This is a time when online communication between. Kids really ramped up. People started getting phones earlier. I even remember reluctantly giving my daughter, who was much younger than 12 at the time, access to messenger kids just so she could have some contact with friends. So I think that timing really exacerbated the move from socializing in real life to online for teenagers.

Caroline: 5:45

Before COVID, had kindle fires for our kids that like they didn't even know where they lived And then in COVID, even though at that time I had like an 11 month old. They all got iPads cause we just, we were both trying to work and all that. So

Anne: 6:02

Yeah. The other thing I think is important about setting is the small town, setting that. There's really no escape from scrutiny in a small town. Everybody's in each other's business. There's only 700 students from kindergarten to 12th grade. Like that's really small. Well, you grew up in a small town, right? Like really small.

Caroline: 6:17

I did, my town has increased in size since I was there, but I was growing up there, there were I think three traffic lights. There was one elementary, one middle, and one high, but there was still like a hundred kids per grade. Small, but not this, not 30 kids per grade.

Anne: 6:33

30 kids per grade is really small. You can't escape if there's somebody who takes a dislike to you. Like I work at a really big public school, it's like a university campus, I know bullying happens. It happens everywhere. But I do think the advantage to such a big school is that you can find your people and you can escape. Like, there's so many places you can go on the school grounds to get away. And I know that bullying has, evolved. It's not the, you know, who's the guy in The Simpsons? That Bar Mo? No, not Mamos. The barkin

Caroline: 7:01

owner. The listeners are gonna be screaming at us right now.

Anne: 7:04

The kid in The Simpsons who like, you know, is like publicly shaving people and like, the bully who steals your lunch money. That kid Yeah. who steals your lunch money and puts your head down the toilet. Like, I don't think that's happening that much anymore. It's much more insidious and beneath the surface. But at least you can physically escape in a bigger school

Caroline: 7:20

Yeah,

Anne: 7:21

get out from under that microscope at a school like Bee City.

Caroline: 7:24

we very intentionally live in a town where there's multiple elementary schools converge into, still multiple middle schools that converge into one high school. So it's like every few years you get an influx of new kids if things haven't been going well, you can find your people or new people.

Anne: 7:41

Yeah. well, before we get too deeply into the specifics about what Kendra LA did to her daughter, I just wanna talk about the standard true crime documentary tropes that I enjoyed about this. the clips of kids walking around their high school, like opening and closing lockers and clustered in groups around their phones with that serious. Ominous kind of true crime music. And then when they have a suspect like walking out of the darkness and sitting down for an interview and focusing on their face to make them look guilty. But then, you know, it's not gonna be that person'cause it's too early. Like,

Caroline: 8:12

Yeah.

Anne: 8:13

there was one part I loved where I, I don't, I can't remember if it's the FBI guy or the local cop where they recreate the moment that he realized it was Kendra and he is in a dark room in front of a laptop and he like shakes his head to the glow of the laptop as he realizes and you know, he is acting it out again. And it reminded me of American Bandel, which spoofed exactly this type of documentary.

Caroline: 8:32

That type of thing, really, actually, I would put it in my criticism category of like, it took me out of

Anne: 8:39

Yeah.

Caroline: 8:40

of work there were also, I can't remember them now. I didn't note them down, but there were a couple moments where like Owen or Chloe or Lauren, like some of these people, some of these characters would be like reliving things, reliving reactions like you just said. Or like having fake conversations in the gym on the bleacher, or walking down the hallway and laughing, you know? And I was just like, this is so unserious.

Anne: 9:06

Yeah. Well, because I've seen American Vandal, I couldn't take it seriously in that respect, but I kind of found that fun to watch. I, I, I can see it as a criticism as well, right?

Caroline: 9:20

so I, I understand like some of that campiness, I guess is

Anne: 9:24

Yes. Campy

Caroline: 9:25

Yeah.

Anne: 9:26

can't be is a good word for it. Well, I mean, let's talk about Kendra. Because talk about the call is coming from inside the house. This is such a perversion of motherhood and what a mother's supposed to be, and the expectations we have. how on earth can you send a message to your daughter telling her to kill herself? How can you mock her for the way she looks in leggings or the fact that she's skinny? I, I don't understand what is wrong with this woman.

Caroline: 9:48

I can't remember whether it was the school person, school board person, or. A cop who called it Cyber Munchausen, and I felt that was accurate and, not just'cause of, the harm that she was actually doing to her daughter, but also other characteristics that you would've heard me talk about. At the end of our, the ACT episode in having listened to that other podcast, nobody Should Believe me, where they focus on it. There's a lot of sort of commonalities between the people who commit this atrocity towards,, their children. Like needing the attention, needing the attention from the child, needing to be needed from the child. A husband that's kind of absent, I mean, they move four times in like two years and the husband doesn't think something might be going on. Like he's clearly was kind of checked out before this went down. and the mom lies so easily and it's always wanting sympathy and it's so narcissistic,

Anne: 10:44

Yeah, I was so proud of myself because before they mentioned like a cyber internet, munchausen by proxy sort of thing. I had come up with that idea. I was like, oh. This is like getting attention just in a different way. And I guess probably because we just did the act and that actual munchhouse by proxy is on my mind. And then I was so disappointed when they said it because I was like, oh, okay. I'm not the only person to have this idea. But yeah, I mean, I think she's someone who likes attention according to her cousin. And when you think about how these horrific text messages would benefit her, like what does she get out of this? She gets closeness with Lauren who would need her more would turn to her more because of the trauma she's experiencing. I think the way she tries to comfort Lauren when the police, come, let's talk about that more in depth later. But she also gets attention from the wider community as a parent dealing with this. She can play the saint just like Didi Blanchard. And I also really wondered if she was motivated by her friendship with Jill, who kind of strikes me as a bit of a local power mom. They get to bond over protecting their children together. And there's some discussion as to whether the original text messages came from Kendra, and I'm open to the possibility that someone else sent them. They'll probably not like maybe those local mean girls that we'll talk about later. But you know, then she and Jill become closer. She notices Lauren needing her more. She gets some attention and then she thinks, hang on. Uh, I can make this happen, and starts sending more messages. And plus, because she's out of work, she has this sense of purpose that she wouldn't otherwise have.

Caroline: 12:06

Yeah. And I also Lauren really demonstrates, some of the positions or perspectives that you would expect a victim of much husband's by proxy to have like this maintained dependence on and love for the mom and like not even really being able to comprehend that their own parent would hurt them and kind of not accepting it. I mean, not every child who is a victim of medical child abuse comes around to the point that Gypsy Rose did of understanding that they have. to separate. Sometimes they are mandated to be separated and the child still doesn't believe the parent has harmed them.

Anne: 12:45

Yeah. There's definitely trauma bonding there. But I mean, Lauren, these texts are so cruel.

Caroline: 12:51

We talked about this in the act, like what's more sympathetic than a sick kid is a dead kid, right? So like the

Anne: 12:58

Yes.

Caroline: 12:58

that she claims I was not scared of her hurting herself, like how on earth would you know what she might do to herself based on some of these horrific texts?

Anne: 13:09

I don't buy that for a second, that she felt secure, that she could send texts like that and have it not result in tragedy because this happens all the time. That kids die by suicide because they've been cyber bullied. This is not an impossible outcome. there's the Meghan Meyers stocking case. There's Zaden Clayton in Queensland where I live. Um, who's that girl with the eyebrows who talked her boyfriend into killing himself? You know, the girl with like the really? Yeah.

Caroline: 13:32

remember her. I can't remember her name either, but I was just thinking of that exactly that girl who talked her boyfriend into killing himself.

Anne: 13:38

I actually Googled suicide, online bullying. And it's just case after case after case after case. This happens a lot. So, yeah, I wonder if, she would've been all right with, with Lauren killing herself because of the attention she would get as the mother of a girl who died by suicide. Ultimate tragedy, right?

Caroline: 13:56

Yeah, I wondered the same.

Anne: 13:57

so there's like a binder full of these text messages. 300 something pages, 50 ish a day.

Caroline: 14:03

yeah, it started at 300 something, but then by the time it got to the FBI, I think it was over 700 pages.

Anne: 14:08

Side note, every time I hear the word binder, I think of MIT Romney saying binders full of women. And so now I'm like, binders full of hostile, aggressive vitreal. Look text to your daughter. You are the ugliest person I've ever seen. Ain't no one wants to see your anorexic flat ass. He wants sex. Kill yourself bitch. His life would be better if you were dead. Her mother from her mother. I, it's, it's heartbreaking.

Caroline: 14:32

It is. And so many of them are so

Anne: 14:34

Yeah.

Caroline: 14:35

too. I mean, there was a point where the cop, again, I can't remember if it was the cop or the school administrator who was like, like they made him at 53 blush. They made me at 43 blush. I wouldn't even say these things to my husband, you know?

Anne: 14:48

Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's talk about the motivation, because her feelings on Owen could be a possible motivation for why she did this. Now she claims it was an attempt to smoke out the real purp, that if she continued the text that she, she claims she didn't send the initial text, but if she continued the text 11 months later, so the timeline doesn't really make sense that she might be able to kind of get kids talking and then they would figure out who did it. Do you buy that?

Caroline: 15:15

No, also, because that's one of her claims, then she also claims that she did it to protect Lauren. from Being assaulted like she was at 17. She claims, which generally we believe women, obviously, it's harder to believe anyone who is found to be lying about many, many, many things. evidence doesn't lean me towards believing this woman.

Anne: 15:41

So this woman has a huge track record as a liar, a manipulator. So yes, she could be lying about the sexual assault she claims she experienced at 17, even if it's true, this is not. What you do to protect your daughter. Like a lot of women have been sexually assaulted. We will discuss this in our upcoming catch and kill episode next week. This is not a normal reaction to that, to then torture your own child.

Caroline: 16:04

Right. In either excuse that she's given, flushing out the real purp or protecting her daughter. How does texting Owen's new girlfriend, and harassing her, do either of those things,

Anne: 16:17

I think there's two possible explanations for that. One her true motivation is that she's obsessed with Owen and she doesn't want anyone else dating him. Two, it's misdirection just like, she somehow set up that some of the text messages were coming from Florida when Chloe's family went to Florida, Texting this new potential girlfriend for Owen was a way to make it seem like it wasn't about her. So I think it could be either in that case. I mean, potentially the most disturbing possibility is that it's about Owen.

Caroline: 16:44

Yeah, and I do think there's good evidence for that too. And I don't know that I require there to be one reason I kind of think it could be both that it started out with her obsession with Owen, which wouldn't go away just because she also got attention. once there was all of this attention and her connection with Lauren, maybe she was like, I wanna keep this going too, but I also wanna keep this who's not, not even just a minor, they're like 12 when this starts.

Anne: 17:15

And you look at those old pictures of them, they are babies, right? We see them being interviewed, in more recent years. So they're, teenagers, they're older, but when you look at those old pictures, oh my god, yeah, it's monstrous. He recounts her going kind of above and beyond the normal friend or girlfriend mom role, like cutting his meat. And I, you know, I, I do wonder is he remembering things differently in light of what he knows now or was she actually weird and he always had a weird vibe about her. I mean, who knows?

Caroline: 17:42

Did she really cut his meat or was he just like, trying to think of an example?

Anne: 17:46

I dunno,

Caroline: 17:46

like,'cause that would be really bizarre behavior,

Anne: 17:50

it's kind of too odd to be made up. So I would say yes and not that much time has passed. Right? I could see him if he was kind of referring to a weird vibe and that was it. Being like, well, maybe you're just looking back at things through a different lens, but like cutting his meat, it's too specific, not to be true in my mind, but the sexually explicit imagery that her brain was coming up with to write these texts about a 13-year-old boy who looks very young is monstrous. I keep saying that word monstrous.

Caroline: 18:17

just like very perverted. I just, I was in such shock. Only one I wrote down was Suck finger Fuck. Which it's

Anne: 18:25

Ugh.

Caroline: 18:27

it's, who says that?

Anne: 18:30

Yeah.

Caroline: 18:31

it's shocking.

Anne: 18:32

Now, imagine it was Owen's dad sending these to Lauren and Owen. Instead of Kendra and he was describing what he was doing with 13-year-old Lauren. Even if it was all made up, would we be reacting the same way?

Caroline: 18:44

Well, we wouldn't be curious about his motivation.

Anne: 18:47

and why should we be curious about Kendra's motivation if it's the same just because she's a woman, I feel like this was really glossed over and that is my main criticism of the documentary. And I think it's because it's so shocking that a mother would do this to her daughter, that what she's saying about Owen to Owen is kind of forgotten about because it's like the mother of the daughter, but an adult woman thinking about Owen this way when he was 13 and crafting these graphic messages about, imagine sexual encounters with him. So, I think Kenta really got a slap on the wrist, given the absolutely foul things she was saying about him. she got the felony stalking charge in less than two years in prison. But there's nothing about. Being a pedophile or a sex offender in any way. And I think if it was a man the charges would've reflected that.

Caroline: 19:27

I wonder if there had been a trial, how many charges might have been on the table versus this plea deal that. People often take and courts often prefer because it does save money and time, et cetera.

Anne: 19:40

I mean, charges aside, like criminal charges aside the documentary. So it shows the text, it doesn't delve into the text. And that makes me wonder if it was that, if that was part of the deal to get her involved in the documentary. Like we won't talk so much about the sex stuff.

Caroline: 19:53

I think that she wanted to plead her case, she attempts to do in various ways. She sort of talks about it was an escape. She talks about, oh, I'm disappointed in myself. I let myself down. Which also this language is very separating you Not being like, I'm disgusted that I did that.

Anne: 20:15

Yeah.

Caroline: 20:15

Her quotes were sort of removed and then also immediately into her trauma as the excuse for why. And, and also very defensive talking about, like if you drive drunk and you don't get caught, you're in the same boat as me, except you didn't get caught. Like, that's a bullshit argument on multiple levels. First of all, don't drive drunk. that's still bad. Even if you don't get caught, you should not be like, that's no big deal that I drove drunk. That's a problem. But also. behavior is not the same as cruel and malicious personal behavior. There's a very different level of, intent. Obviously when you drive drunk, you could kill somebody accidentally, but the emotional toll that this took over a very long period of time is totally different.

Anne: 21:03

I think the only thing that junk driving really has in common with what Kendra did to her daughter is that they both could result in someone dying,

Caroline: 21:10

Mm-hmm.

Anne: 21:11

But as you said, there's a difference between calculated conniving regularly again and again and again, making the decision to press send as opposed to something that, unless it's a pattern, is more likely to be reckless, dumb, dangerous, a mistake. There's a difference between a bad decision and intent to harm.

Caroline: 21:28

Totally. And that's why it's often manslaughter if you do, because it's irresponsible and a bad decision that you made, not in your full faculty, not that I'm excusing it, but you make that decision because you're already drinking and you're already not thinking clearly, although looking at that table, she might've been drunk this whole time. Who

Anne: 21:47

Yeah,

Caroline: 21:47

never in my life seen that many bottles just out in the open. I mean, like even if you were drinking that many bottles, you're not even trying to hide it.

Anne: 21:57

maybe they were just about to take the recycling out for like several weeks of drinking. I don't know, but

Caroline: 22:02

Why do you

Anne: 22:02

it's weird.

Caroline: 22:03

on the table? Where are you

Anne: 22:04

Yeah. I don't know. It's, it's, it's weird. There's another of many red flags there and massive false equivalency going on with this, equating drunk driving with what she did. The other possible reason is that she's jealous of Lauren. Lauren is such a lovely little girl, right? She's blonde, she's pretty, she's sporting, she's got her perfect golden couple boyfriend. Her whole life's ahead of her. You know, you look at these pictures, she's glowing, right? And so maybe as Kendra is aging, she's out of work. Her marriage doesn't seem to be strong even, you know, before this comes out. So I was kind of reminded of those family annihilator stories like John List, people who have lost their job and kind of pretended they're still working to keep up appearances and. Which makes me wonder what would've happened if the lie about the job came out before the discovery that she was the perpetrator with the police right then and there. Would she have done something more drastic at that point? Could she have been one of those people who drove, off a cliff with Lauren in the car? Not that that's what John listed, but other people have done that.

Caroline: 23:02

Yeah, I mean, that's a good question it's horrific to think of this, but it just occurs to me, you have life insurance for a child who dies, maybe you are not in as much financial trouble as you were before.

Anne: 23:15

Yeah. do you think she feels remorse?

Caroline: 23:17

No.

Anne: 23:18

I think she's really sorry she got caught.

Caroline: 23:20

Right. If she felt remorse, she would not have been in this documentary.

Anne: 23:23

Yeah,

Caroline: 23:24

was in this documentary because she feels like she's justified and she can excuse her actions.

Anne: 23:30

well I think we see right through that. Um, I don't think anyone is falling for it. And, can we be petty for a moment and talk about the camera angles when Kendra's like on the couch reading text messages and she has like the quadruple chin. So if anyone thinks the filmmakers are too sympathetic to her, like look at the way they filmed her chin,

Caroline: 23:46

Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of people mocking her teeth and stuff like that, which I guess I felt a little bad about after White Lotus,

Anne: 23:54

yeah, that's a good point.

Caroline: 23:55

But she, she deserves to be mocked because she's a terrible person. But I feel bad often for people who might also possess this sort, that feature, that

Anne: 24:07

Yeah, that's true.

Caroline: 24:08

but, uh, it is entertaining.

Anne: 24:10

Yeah. I mean, another question I have is, what else did she do? Because I find it hard to believe that otherwise she was a perfectly normal mom and not abusive in any way, and she was able to partition off just this one part of her life. Like that the abuse was only there. So, these 20 months or two years or whatever of torturing her daughter couldn't seep in in any other way. Was she able to keep it separate or was she abusing or manipulating or, you know, some kind of coercive control of Lauren in other ways.

Caroline: 24:37

It definitely seems like she had coercive control and was manipulating Lauren in I don't know how many ways. I think that's a good question too, because I did note how almost at the very, very end, and I know this was for shock value, dad, who I don't necessarily trust further than I could throw. say like from the beginning, he suspected Kendra because she's not a truthful person. And what other evidence of that do we have? I mean, we have evidence from Kendra's cousin that she's attention seeking, so it's easy for me to believe that she's not truthful for the purposes of getting attention. But I just would love to have any example, even one of she's not to be trusted.

Anne: 25:21

Yeah, and it sounds like she was really involved at the school, so surely there's. Information out there. She was the scorekeeper for basketball and coaching and volunteering and all sorts of things like that. I, I kind of hated Chloe's parents, like,

Caroline: 25:35

Absolutely.

Anne: 25:36

did I read that or did I see that Tina dressed up as something to do with this for Halloween?

Caroline: 25:43

What the mom,

Anne: 25:44

yeah, I feel like I saw it on Reddit that she dressed up as like a joke costume referencing this, after the fact.

Caroline: 25:49

I wouldn't put it past her. You know, I also hate Chloe. She clearly is a very mean girl. I

Anne: 25:55

Yes.

Caroline: 25:56

baloney when her parents are like, they're being interviewed. Wait, I wrote it down somewhere. It was like, you know, oh, in seventh and eighth grade, she was constantly being called into the office for bullying and her parents were like,, it's so ridiculous. She's a leader.

Anne: 26:12

They seem like the type of parents who would never believe anything negative about their precious daughter. And Chloe is a victim here, but

Caroline: 26:18

Mm-hmm.

Anne: 26:19

you know, I still think that she's also a perpetrator, not in the way that Kendra is. And I thought it was really harsh for those parents, for Tina and Chloe's dad to suggest that Lauren was a part of this.

Caroline: 26:30

Right.

Anne: 26:31

Like they had no right to do that. Maybe she was, who knows? But it seems unlikely. And to just throw that suggestion out there about this young person who was clearly a victim of a very cruel and manipulative mother in this small town, that she's going to have to still go back to that high school and face people with this suspicion over her is, is awful.

Caroline: 26:49

It is, and, and I mean, everyone talks about how Chloe's mean. Owen talks about how Chloe wasn't the nicest person. Her friends are like, she's tough. Then the parents are like, she's constantly getting called in for bullying. Then the other cousin is like, she threw carrots at me, or whatever. Chloe did go on TikTok to try to like defend herself and got clobbered on TikTok about it.

Anne: 27:14

Do you think Chloe threw the carrots?

Caroline: 27:16

I, yes, of course

Anne: 27:17

Of course she did. Without a doubt.

Caroline: 27:19

No question.

Anne: 27:20

too specific to be made up.

Caroline: 27:22

Yeah.

Anne: 27:23

Yeah.

Caroline: 27:23

And I, I mean she is a victim of this, but if there was an assembly and somebody asked, raise your hand if you've been personally victimized by Chloe, everyone would be raising their hand.

Anne: 27:35

Yeah. If there's a Regina George at that school, it's Chloe.

Caroline: 27:38

Absolutely.

Anne: 27:39

Do you think there's any chance that Chloe and her little cabal of pretty mean girls are responsible for the initial texts?

Caroline: 27:47

I do. I, because of the 11 month gap, generally speaking, I agree with that cop who was like, perpetrators often try to minimize their own, responsibility or accountability by saying some of it wasn't them. And there's a lot of evidence to support that. But I feel like it very much seems like a lot of these texts were compulsive in nature if they're like eight hours a day and all night long. I, I think it's reasonable that maybe those first texts? were from Chloe and her, her her

Anne: 28:16

Tone is, the tone is different too. It's like, hi, Lauren Owen is breaking up with you. Or he, he no longer likes you, he hasn't liked you for a while. It's obvious he wants me, you know, they're not as explicit. And there's that break, and also the, the timing of around Chloe's Halloween party that she didn't want Lauren to come to it kind of makes sense that they might be responsible. And then Kendra notices this. She gets that closeness that she experienced in that moment. Maybe Lauren is drifting apart as those 11 months pass. And then she's like, oh, here's an idea. And not that any of this is understandable in any way, but I do think it's worse if she started it than if she continued it.

Caroline: 28:50

I, I can see that. I don't know if, I think it makes much difference, to be honest to me.

Anne: 28:57

What about dad? Sean, what do you think of him?

Caroline: 29:00

I go back and forth on him? I think it's in the future'cause we're in the weird podcaster time machine thing. But in a future thing, I think I mentioned Ruby Frankie, and is a situation where I've been sympathetic towards a father who was clearly absent. in the aftermath of a crisis. maybe I'm being too easy on these dads. I think it would be fair for someone to accuse me of that, but I was very much like, how could you not be questioning having to move four times? How could you not be questioning the bottles all over the table? How could you be so in the dark by the time it got to this point? It seems to me that you feel entitled to be that checked out of your family life, which I think a lot of fathers in the traditional structure have been allowed to be, you know? at the same time it's like. I looked up that, RV in their driveway, the cheapest one is like 40 grand. They go up to like 80 grand. So when he talks about money troubles, like, I don't know how much he's really working towards resolving those at the same time.

Anne: 30:05

My husband would know. I wasn't bringing home a paycheck from the very first day. I didn't get my pay

Caroline: 30:10

Yeah.

Anne: 30:11

I would know too, like my husband does more of the financial stuff than I do, but I'm not that checked out. So it's hard. To believe that a couple could be that financially checked out of each other's lives. Especially if something was going wrong that you wouldn't be like, I'm gonna log onto our bank and see what the bank balance is. Hey, how come you haven't had a paycheck in six months? I just feel like you would notice.

Caroline: 30:29

Or at least after, like, maybe if you don't normally do it, because my husband, I don't know that he would know, be

Anne: 30:36

Yeah.

Caroline: 30:36

But if we suddenly had to move twice even, he would be like, why don't I start to sit down with you and discuss why this is happening? even once, he would just be like, well, I've clearly gotta step in here and we gotta figure this out and we gotta sell the rv. You or like, like after the second, third, fourth time that you aren't even involved, like, what, what are you doing? I looked up what his job was. He's a mechanic locally, so it's not even like he's traveling for work.

Anne: 31:06

I mean, I know a lot of couples do divide, You're in charge of this, you're in charge of that, but yeah, as you said, if. If things were going so wrong that he wouldn't question it. I mean, I'm surprised he didn't harm Kendra in that moment if that was truly news to him. If anything's gonna make a nonviolent man violent, it would be something like this, vicious attack on their daughter.

Caroline: 31:22

I'm a very passive person, generally speaking, but I wanted to her when she was like hugging her and rubbing her back and saying, no, I'm not leaving her. I don't wanna leave her. The fact that he didn't get more I think props to him for that.

Anne: 31:37

Yeah. And questionable to include it. I question the ethics of using that footage because it's exposed Lauren to a ton of criticism in terms of her reaction and the way she doesn't push Kendra off and she doesn't speak. I think she's shellshocked, she's processing, but a lot of people have used that reaction to say that she knew that it wasn't a surprise and perhaps that she was complicit. this needs to be pointed out that again and again, we've learned that people don't necessarily react to shocking news the way we expect them to react and the way we deem it's appropriate to react. Like you look back to the famous, um, Dingo Ate My baby. What's her name? You know that they didn't think she react. I should know that one. oh, not Lacey. Lindy, not Lacey. Yeah. Uh, the Lindy Chamberlain case that she didn't react the way people thought a mother would react, and therefore she went to jail and she didn't do anything like a dingo really did eat her baby. And I think there's a lot of stories like this. Hmm.

Caroline: 32:27

Yeah, totally agree. I I, I remember listening to, I hate, I normally try to avoid listening to 9 1 1 calls, but there's this case of Dateline where a, is shot and killed his mother and, and his fiance called 9 1 1, and they're so calm, so calm, and you're just like, how on earth could you be that way? But yeah, like people are in shock. They don't know how to respond. And certainly in a, in a situation where you're in a volatile you're not gonna be the type of person to like make waves and be dramatic when something like this happens.

Anne: 33:05

Yeah. And I think, as you said, the way she's hugging her, the way she's holding her hand, it's, it's pretty sickening. And it made me cry. not for Kendra obviously, but for Lauren, that this is her mother. Like, I wanted to scream at the tv, but you are the one who did this. you're saying, I can't leave her, but the reason she needs support is because of you. It's, it's just horrendous. so speaking of parents, should we talk about Jill Owen's mom?

Caroline: 33:26

Sure

Anne: 33:26

I liked her. I mean, I think she made some missteps.

Caroline: 33:29

I think she was, perfectly imperfect

Anne: 33:31

Yeah, she went too far when she took Owen's phone and texted Chloe pretending to be him. Like, that's a violation. But I also think she was desperate and she didn't know what to do, and she was being manipulated by a horrible person. So.

Caroline: 33:43

Yeah. I really felt for her body cam footage when she's like, there's nothing you can do

Anne: 33:50

Yeah,

Caroline: 33:50

she's just so lost. And I also really felt for her with the whole desperation she had around the phones in school. I think it's the administrator who talks about like, I go back and forth on the phones in school issue because I know that some learning can happen through phones and it's like, who's, learning on their cell phone? I understand the whole like, screens in school question and iPads in school question, but nobody's class on their cell phone. Are they? I mean, you're, you're actually in a school, I guess I should ask you.

Anne: 34:22

well, there's some argument that for art it matters, because they might need to be taking photos or, or. so some art teachers advocate for having access to them. I am firmly, firmly, firmly against phones in schools. Our school has a no phone policy. It's broken constantly. But, you know, we we're trying, I have a minimum screen policy in my own classroom, and I find that when I am making my students hand write and get up and switch partners and talk to each other, my class is so much more dynamic and so much more learning happens. there's a real deadening effect to any screen in the classroom, especially phones. So, yes, I think he is absolutely wrong about, phones having an academic place in schools. maybe he needs a mobile office because he's an adult with a job, but kids are not using the phones in the same way. So.

Caroline: 35:10

Yeah, totally agree.

Anne: 35:11

can we talk about superintendent Bill Tillman? the way he's so shocked. I think he's kind of representing all of us watching this. Like, what the fuck? But he actually had to deal with it, and I did appreciate his idea of using surveillance footage to try to catch someone sending the text in the hall, even though the likelihood would be next to zero, you know, that that would actually happen. he reminded me a little of Rob Graves back from episode four, our Fox Hollow murders. he's kind of, kind of excited to be a part of it all, I think.

Caroline: 35:37

I mean he lives in a town of 400 people

Anne: 35:40

Yeah.

Caroline: 35:41

I can't blame him

Anne: 35:42

Yeah. Um, it's not discussed in the documentary, but I looked him up and he has spearheaded a wind power project so I thought that was kind of cool. He's a former earth science teacher and is passionate about renewable energy, so good luck to you. Superintendent Bill Tillman. I don't think he works for that school anymore. He's somewhere else, but,

Caroline: 35:57

Yeah, I did actually see a lot of wind turbines, like in the scenery.

Anne: 36:01

Hmm.

Caroline: 36:02

that was intentional, but I was just like, oh, they have a lot of wind turbines in Michigan. I didn't realize, you know,

Anne: 36:06

Well maybe that was all him.

Caroline: 36:08

maybe.

Anne: 36:08

Uh, what about FBI Agent Bradley Peter, is that his name?

Caroline: 36:12

thank God for him. I appreciated That he was shocked at how little had been done by the time the situation came to him,

Anne: 36:20

That was my main thing, like why didn't this happen earlier? Like finally we've got an adult in the room taking care of business. This should have happened months before.

Caroline: 36:28

Yeah. totally. I actually made a note to myself. I was supposed to look up like, can you just call the FBI? Because I was sort of like, if the FBI had only been involved sooner I liked the FBI guy. My one criticism is that he says commit suicide and I was very surprised by that. I really feel like at this moment in time, both the FBI as well as documentarians would, know to advise against that phrase. And really say, try to encourage them to kill themselves or die by suicide in a way that doesn't

Anne: 37:00

Try to encourage them to say, kill themselves because you just said try to encourage them to kill themselves.

Caroline: 37:06

a Yeah. Try to encourage them to say things like, wanted them to kill themselves or wanted them to die by suicide.

Anne: 37:16

Use the more respectful terminology.

Caroline: 37:21

much better than I did. but yeah, that, that was essentially my point, both that the FBI agent should know better as well as the documentarian maybe being like, could we just take that again and you use this term

Anne: 37:32

Yeah, I think a lot of those terms are just ingrained in the way we speak and it can take effort to remember to use the correct terminology and to keep up to date with that. but we all need to be open as language evolves to, to making changes. And I think, you know, the older people get like, you know, will be like, I'm not saying this, that, or the other. Right.

Caroline: 37:50

and that, and

Anne: 37:51

we need to be aware of that. Yeah.

Caroline: 37:53

we get to a point where it's vernacular is by people being like, can we take that again with you using a different phrase, you know, like. kind of effort criticizing it here today?

Anne: 38:05

Yes. Yeah. everyone knows now. Everyone in the world who listens to us will know. Speaking of suicidal ideation, Owen, did talk about killing himself in relation to these texts. I have to say, Owen seemed like such a sweet kid, and it is such a shame that this happened to him. They are so cute and young and they seem so wholesome. And I hate to say all American because of the stereotypes inherent in that statement. And it reminds me of that episode of 30 Rock where Jack keeps talking about wanting to see like real small town America. And Tina Fey is like, there's no such thing as real Americans. Like we're all real Americans,

Caroline: 38:35

Mm-hmm.

Anne: 38:36

like, they're just so sweet and it's so sad that this is what caused them to break up. I mean, they would've broken up anyway, right? Not many people end up with their 12-year-old crush, but it's sad that this is what they experienced with the first time they ever experienced love like that. They were driven to break up by this harassment. And I felt so bad for Lauren, you know, when he moved on, and apparently they just ignore each other now. It's really unfortunate.

Caroline: 38:57

Yeah. I mean, all of these children have C-P-T-S-D after this this is a complex PTSD situation. He's gonna have trust issues. Not to be armchair psychiatrist or whatever, but they're clearly, as he says, gonna have issues and concerns about not only can they trust people, but. What is getting into a relationship with a person potentially gonna do to that person? Especially because his next girlfriend was harassed,

Anne: 39:24

Yeah. As you said, getting a phone was the worst thing that ever happened to him. What about the Yeah,

Caroline: 39:30

all relate at this point?

Anne: 39:31

I know, I know. scariest, most disturbing part, besides the fact that this is her mother. For me, it was. That footage from the body cam, as we've already discussed. But also just the volume of it all. The 50 ish texts a day, the length of time it went on, that she was making this decision again and again and again to send the cruelest, nastiest, most sexually explicit things to her daughter whom she's supposed to protect.

Caroline: 39:54

second to, as you said, the fact that it was her mother the ease with which she lies, not just about this, but like when the cops come and they say, do you have a cell phone? And she says, here's my cell phone and here's my computer. And they're like, do you have any other, no, I don't. And then when comes home, he's like, which cell phone?'cause she has multiple and. she's like, no, I don't. Oh, yes I do. And I watched it again. When we decided to do this so I could take notes and I was really, really watching her for these lies and the ease with which she said it, and the way that you could not discern from lie. That was kind of the greatest horror for me.

Anne: 40:34

Yeah. Another thing that I found disturbing was the way she mocks her daughter's body. how hurtful it is to tap into Lauren's insecurity about being so thin and calling her anorexic As someone who's had an eating disorder in the past, I know how those negative comments can just really burrow into your mind as a teenager, and your mother should not be the source of those comments. So just again, the cruelty of it all.

Caroline: 40:58

And also she has now given Chloe and her awful parents ammunition to be victims. Like they don't need that shit.

Anne: 41:07

Yeah, yeah,

Caroline: 41:08

to be providing them with reasons to like grandstand. They clearly have no issue with doing it on their own without this extra push

Anne: 41:17

Do you have any criticism of the documentary?

Caroline: 41:19

So much. Okay. So, there's a lot of sus discontinuity situations happening. So the body cam footage that you mentioned, literally mid-sentence, he's saying every message that went to the kids came back to you and Lauren's in the room. And when he says every message, her hair is over both shoulders. But when he says that went to the kids, came back to you, her hair is one shoulder and we didn't see her push her hair back. So what occurred between that space that maybe Lauren reacted to something that we didn't see? I mean, there was a lot of like that type of thing happening as well in the very end. We are left to believe that Lauren still has her sympathetic feelings towards her mom and that she really misses her. And she does say all of that stuff when she's got the longer hair and she's sort of side angled in the room with the, like, pinky lighting but then there's a very stark cut to, she's got a little bit shorter hair and she's in a brighter room with maybe bluish lighting, and she sounds less sympathetic more resolved and more in line with her dad. And then it goes back to her earlier perspective. And the first time I watched it, I didn't catch that back and forth,

Anne: 42:36

Yeah, I didn't catch any of that. I've only seen it once.

Caroline: 42:38

there was definitely a lot of disservice to Lauren, in terms of continuity and perspective.

Anne: 42:44

And the fact that they included that footage at all, of a minor, having to go through that reaction in front of the world, and I feel like that's very unfair to her.

Caroline: 42:52

Yeah. Agree.

Anne: 42:53

There was a lot of like little manipulations going on. For example, there's at one point where Chloe's dad is shown throwing something into a fire. Do you remember that?

Caroline: 43:02

Yeah.

Anne: 43:02

burning something. There's so much inherent associations with fire pits for true crime watchers. Like,

Caroline: 43:08

Yeah.

Anne: 43:09

know, like the, what is it in making a murder murderer? There's so much talk of that. And you know, I see somebody throwing something into a fire and I think destruction of evidence So why did they show that image of him? It feels like they were manipulating us to dislike him, and I do dislike him. so yeah, I think there's a lot of what is included, what is not included, what are they pushing us to believe inherent in any true crime documentary. But it's, it's pretty over the top in this one.

Caroline: 43:32

To that point, Kendra is in this lovely home space that looks quite fancy. looks

Anne: 43:39

Yeah. It looks like something that you would put as your Zoom background to make it look like your house is nicer back in COVID era.

Caroline: 43:45

Totally. then. Sean is probably in his actual home. there's like boots and like gear and stuff. In the background. it's not as nice and I'm like, why did Kendra get the up treatment? Just so we wouldn't suspect her it doesn't seem fair.

Anne: 44:01

Do you think it's overly sympathetic to Kendra?

Caroline: 44:03

No, I just think it wanted misdirection too

Anne: 44:07

Yeah. Mm. Yeah. I, I think they're giving her enough rope to hang herself by letting her talk, like the things they choose to include, the drunk driving, false equivalency, the angles on her chin, the overlay of some of the most vicious texts with Lauren saying she wants to have a relationship with her mom. So I think they make it quite clear that Kendra's a monster. I think I know why Kendra agreed to be in the interview, but like, I wanna know about how she was directed. Was she directed to misdirect us? Did they tell her to pretend she was being interviewed as if she were innocent at the beginning? Did they lead the witness to manipulate the audience for the sake of the great reveal?

Caroline: 44:39

Yeah, I mean, I definitely felt like, and I didn't write down any of the questions, but you can hear them asking her questions they do sound sympathetic to her the way they ask them. So I, I do think there was some leading the witness happening, or maybe not truly honest with her about how they were gonna handle it, which, know, some of that might be totally fair.

Anne: 45:02

Well, she deserves it, so whatever. But,

Caroline: 45:04

the last thing that I wanted to mention is there's this whole thing about boys don't care about drama and mean girls stereotype. And we either have talked about this or will talk about it, like the whole misconception that anger is not an emotion and the unfair sort of perpetuating of that stereotype.

Anne: 45:23

Yeah,

Caroline: 45:23

Perpetuation, what have you of that stereotype,

Anne: 45:26

I think we will talk about that in our yellow wallpaper episode coming up in a few weeks. Yeah, it's coming up. Yeah. yeah, as I said, other criticism is glossing over the sexually explicit way. She discusses Owen, not that it's not there, but it's, she's not pressed on it. And I would've liked to see like a psychologist perspective on what is going on here, somebody analyzing Kendra's excuses i, I know it's unfair to diagnose someone that you're not treating, but what, what could possibly have prompted someone to behave this way?

Caroline: 45:52

I was trying to think of a documentary I watched recently where somebody does give the caveat like, I didn't treat this person, but this is my understanding based on what I know. And I think

Anne: 46:01

Well, that happens all the time. Yeah.

Caroline: 46:03

Yeah.

Anne: 46:03

So I'm okay with that. Should Lauren forgive? Kendra? What do you think?

Caroline: 46:07

No, no.

Anne: 46:09

unequivocally. No, I think she should cut her off forever.

Caroline: 46:11

And I

Anne: 46:12

Yeah.

Caroline: 46:12

I said this early on in our episodes, I can't remember what about, but like I'm just not a person that thinks you need to forgive to move on. And I understand that some people do. So if that is the way we're thinking about it, I do think Lauren needs to move on. If forgiveness is the way to do that, I guess fine, but generally, no. I think you just need to move on.

Anne: 46:33

I also found the love bombing emails from prison, problematic. Particularly the one where she's like, I'm so mad at you because you didn't say I love you. That's so manipulative.

Caroline: 46:41

Totally.

Anne: 46:42

And poor Lauren, though, she still just wants her mom, which ties in with our discussion of Carrie, who still wants her horrifically abusive mom. In her final moments, I also want to know is Lauren in therapy? I really hope so because as, as we said, we look at those early photos of her, she could be played by like a fanning sister, a young Chloe, 70, and then you contrast her with the tone that she has in the interviews and how subdued and shocked she is on that body cam footage after that daily unrelenting stress of being bombarded with so much negativity for years, only to find out it's her mother, but she still loves her and. I, I just hope she's getting the help that she needs,

Caroline: 47:17

But I would ask does she still love her and need her? Because that other cut that I mentioned I don't get the same vibe.

Anne: 47:25

That maybe she has figured it out.

Caroline: 47:27

Yeah, I get a more evolved vibe

Anne: 47:31

Okay. Well, she says she wants to study criminology, which is interesting because I remember, I had a year 10 class a few years ago, and I asked everybody like, what do you wanna do? In one of those, get to know you early activities. And I had like, like a third of the class wanted to be in criminology. So I think it's just, it's, it's a popular thing. And it was all girls, like every girl wanted to be like, I wanna be in forensics, I wanna be a detective, I wanna be in criminology. So I think, you know, all these 16 year olds are, it's a, it's a common choice I think at this point. there's so much emphasis on true crime. But yeah, I hope she can become a crusader and catch bad people like her mom.

Caroline: 48:02

Yeah, me too.

Anne: 48:03

Okay. True horror. Impact of trauma. Right? Whether I believe that Kendra, you know, did this because she was raped at 17. Something has made her mentally unwell because you can't be sane and do something like this. Maybe she was sexually assaulted, maybe somehow she's stuck at 17. She often sounds like a teenager. She says those ones were random or whatever, and she's kind of playing with her hair. So maybe there's some kind of arrested development situation going on here.

Caroline: 48:26

It's so hard to discern from the true, true horror of this. From what, what it's just about, you know, like

Anne: 48:33

Yeah.

Caroline: 48:34

that it, it is the true horror of this is just the facts of the case. That a mother. Could do this to their child. And the details of the this, how explicit those texts are she did this not just to her child, but to this other innocent boy that, that it was super sexual to both of them. I mean, all of it. It's

Anne: 48:56

Yeah. Another deeper horror is the way phones have transformed our lives, the high school teenage landscape. We already mentioned Owen saying that getting a phone was the worst thing that ever happened to him. And although most kids are not gonna have an experience like that, I do think getting a phone is the worst thing that happens to all of us. As you said, just yesterday I was talking with a few colleagues and all of us, there were four of us We all have children between 12 and 14, and everybody was kind of saying, it's a disaster. That they have given their kids a phone and I haven't done it yet, but I'm getting pressured. And, I that the second, that phone is in her hand, it's gonna become the most interesting thing in her life. At best it robs them of the opportunity to be doing other things like reading or practicing a skill or art or hanging out in real life. And at worst it's destroying attention spans. It's exposing kids to God knows what online, and providing bullies and predators, inescapable access to their lives.

Caroline: 49:46

I totally feel the. Wanting the security and the communication that comes with it. Especially in America, where unfortunately school shootings are things that occur, and I live in a town where my child, bikes to and from school goes into town after school with friends, We have, what we all lovingly call the burner phone, we don't have, we don't have a house phone, so if there was one parent at home, we had to drop someone off somewhere. We left the burner on the counter. Or if the kids were all going to play at the neighbor's house, like, or in a yard or whatever, the burner call if you need something. It is both a super cheap phone that is flip and prepaid minutes and not fancy and doesn't have all of those extra features. So this is the way we're handling this until have to eventually deal with smartphones.

Anne: 50:37

Yeah. I'm the only mean parent among my daughter's friends. She's the only one which makes it really hard to hold out. And that's frustrating because none of them should have phones, right? Like, if we all agreed and I made this attempt before they, you know, yeah.

Caroline: 50:49

signed, like I signed a petition that said I wouldn't get him one before eighth grade.

Anne: 50:53

Well, eighth grade's not good either, right? Like, it should be, I don't know, 16 or something. But it's impossible. But again, I, I do acknowledge the safety issue in America with schools. That's, that's a real thing. Another deeper horror is parents who have so little going on in their lives that they get involved in their teenage trauma. That's not great.

Caroline: 51:09

Yeah. Or parents that are so removed from their family life that they don't realize that their spouse hasn't been working for a year or two.

Anne: 51:17

That's not great. Do we have any survival or self-preservation takeaways from this?

Caroline: 51:21

Don't get a phone.

Anne: 51:22

That's mine too. Keep your kids off phones as long as you can.

Caroline: 51:26

Yeah,

Anne: 51:26

because I mean, just at uh, one of the local schools, local primary schools in my neighborhood had an incident with a bunch of your six kids showing porn to younger kids because they had phones. So, I don't know.

Caroline: 51:38

I did learn about sex on the bus in elementary school,

Anne: 51:42

Me too. Yeah. So this

Caroline: 51:45

how, yeah, yeah. However, even though my kids use iPads, I don't have messenger on it and stuff like that. A lot of things that my oldest is missing out on. Because he's not able to use those communication things. But I do. I agree. It's cause I also don't feel great like reading everything he's doing. I don't love the invasion of privacy aspect of that. I want,

Anne: 52:08

No.

Caroline: 52:09

I want there to be some independence and stuff.

Anne: 52:12

Well, do you have a PAL cleanser?

Caroline: 52:14

Yes. I've been wanting to recommend this guy forever. I love everything that he posts. I watch him on TikTok. He's also on Instagram and reels and everything. name is Rob Anderson. It's at Heartthrob Anderson with two T Heart Throb Anderson. He does these like snark reviews of various things, usually from the nineties. So he spends a

Anne: 52:38

Oh, I know this guy. He does like the sound of music and like Dustin's Creek. Yes, yes, yes. hilarious.

Caroline: 52:44

I guarantee you know this guy because of me, because I

Anne: 52:47

Yes. You've sent me him before.

Caroline: 52:48

yeah, I, he was wa he was watching all the Olson movies. He watched Dawson's Creek. I think I probably sent you his Dawson's Creek stuff. Oh, deep Blue Sea. but he, this week also posted a review Of I guess Lifetime has done a movie based on this case, this unknown number case,

Anne: 53:09

course they have.

Caroline: 53:09

with Lisa Rena as the mom. And I saw his review last night. And I was like, oh my God. I, I'm so excited that I get to recommend him. He's great. He's also touring. Try to look him up, see if he's coming to a place near you, because he does do live standup where he talks about stuff from the nineties. He also was recently featured in people. Congratulations, Rob. But Yeah. highly recommend anything he has ever

Anne: 53:34

Yeah. I love the way he skewers things. It's very funny.

Caroline: 53:36

Oh, it's nobody snark watches like he does.

Anne: 53:40

Perfect. Uh, my palate cleanser is, I just started a Stranger Things rewatch and I don't know if there's any show that I've watched more than Stranger Things because every time a new season comes out, we, we rewatch from the beginning I bring it up as a palate cleanser because despite how many times I've seen this show, I'm still utterly delighted by those children in season one. They're just so cute. So I highly recommend starting a rewatch because the new season, season five comes out November 26, and shortly before that we're planning on covering season four. So start your rewatch. I think I said rewatch there. So start your re start. So start your rewatch. like wobo.

Caroline: 54:15

watch. We

Anne: 54:16

think so.

Caroline: 54:17

pee.

Anne: 54:17

your rewatch. Yeah. All right. Do you have any recommendations?

Caroline: 54:21

Okay. So, recommendations. I would recommend anything that Sky Borgman. has done actually. Abducting in Plain Sight, which I referenced earlier in this episode. And a bunch of other docuseries that are really, really great. So highly recommend her stuff. If you want something that's more just like high school drama, obviously I would always recommend 0 2 1 oh, Dawson's Creek, the OC and any of those wonderful things as well as Laguna Beach, the Hills, all of those, if you want a more reality vibe, that also is, I guess, kitschy and maybe feels like a docuseries, although super, not very scripted.

Anne: 55:01

Don't forget Gossip Girl.

Caroline: 55:02

Yes. Gossip Girl. Oh my God, such a good point. I dunno that I have like any books or anything that I would recommend, It's very rare that you have a documentary that speaks to high school students. So, we, we did mention Serial and obviously that's like an true crime world. So I would say Serial is another one where people are sort of talking about cliques and vibes and who was in touch with who and all of that jazz.

Anne: 55:29

I would also recommend euphoria, but this is not like the teen dramas we grew up with. It is very grim. but it, I guess, explores the awfulness of trying to be a teenager in the. Era of the internet. I also would love to recommend Serial for phone forensics. That's a major aspect of that, like pinging cell phone towers and things like that. And also for phone forensics. the Wire, my uncle who was an investigative journalist always said The Wire is the best show on tv and there's a lot of phone tech stuff in that as well. for another catfishing story, you should go back and listen to episode two and watch Sweet Bobby, which we cover. We had some audio issues in that one, so hopefully you like us enough to forgive but we've gotten better. For my bad moms. You could watch the movie Bad Moms. But go back and listen to our last two episodes on Carrie and the act. Which do you think of our three bad moms that we've covered, I guess in a row are the worst. We've got Margaret White, the fictional abusive mom from Carrie Deedee Blanchard who had Munchausen's by proxy and Kendra la car. Do you have an opinion?

Caroline: 56:26

D. D

Anne: 56:27

Yeah, I agree. Yeah, because it was physical. White tried to Yeah. Like a decade, at least. Right? Decades. Margaret White did try to murder her daughter, but I guess arguably DEI did too. Just more slowly.

Caroline: 56:36

Mm-hmm.

Anne: 56:37

Jonathan Hay's book The Anxious Generation. Now this is a book about the impact of phones. There are flaws in his research. There's some correlation is not necessarily causation. Criticisms of it, but I think regardless the conclusions he draws about the dangers of phones are correct. So he has some advice for how to kind of return to a more phone free, or I guess you can't go phone free, but a less screen childhood American Vandal. Please, please watch this. It doubles as a palate cleanser. It is parodying this exact style of documentary. It is so fun. and Mean girls because Amy Puller's cool mom who's too involved, you know, she's great in that. And also obviously Chloe and friends are mean girls.

Caroline: 57:17

while you were talking, I was like, oh my God, I didn't mention mean girls. I can't believe it. I also didn't mention my So-Called Life, which is the best high school.

Anne: 57:24

Oh, and that's like your favorite,

Caroline: 57:25

Yeah.

Anne: 57:25

is it your favorite? Yeah.

Caroline: 57:26

Yeah.

Anne: 57:27

It's up there. And listeners, what would you like to recommend to go along with this? If you have any recommendations, please follow us on Instagram threads or on Facebook. You can comment on any of our posts or message us directly. We'd love to hear from you. So our homework is Catch and Kill by Ronan Farrow coming out next week. Start reading or listening to the audiobook or listen to the podcast. You'll get the same idea from that. And that's it. Caroline, do you have anything else?

Caroline: 57:50

No,

Anne: 57:51

Okay, well thank you for listening. Please do all the things podcasters ask you to do, like and subscribe. Follow us on Instagram or Facebook. Contact us, tell a friend, write a review on iTunes. You can email us at Drawn to Darkness pod@gmail.com. And if like Shirley Jackson, you delight in what you fear, join us next week. This time here at Drawn to Darkness. Special shout out to Nancy Ano who painted our cover art. You can find her on Instagram at Nancy ano and to Harry Kidd for our intro and outro music. You can find him on Instagram at Harry J. Kidd and on Spotify.