25 - Hereditary by Ari Aster

In this episode, we tackle Hereditary, Ari Aster’s devastating 2018 debut and one of the films most often credited with launching a new era of “elevated horror.” After the death of her estranged mother, miniature artist Annie Graham struggles to process her complicated grief. When her daughter Charlie dies in a shocking accident, the family fractures under the weight of blame, guilt, and unbearable loss. What begins as a family drama about grief, resentment, and inheritance curdles into something far darker as supernatural events occur and Annie Graham and her family discover that their suffering may have been orchestrated long before the story even begins.

We unpack the film as both a supernatural horror and a deeply human tragedy about motherhood, blame, intergenerational trauma, and the corrosive effects of grief. We discuss Annie’s ambivalence toward motherhood, Peter’s unbearable guilt and trauma, Charlie’s unsettling presence, and the way Ari Aster traps his characters inside a dollhouse world where something is playing with them. Along the way, we explore fate versus agency, cult manipulation, spiritualism and grief exploitation, and why this film hurts as much (or more?) than it scares.

Content & Spoiler Warning:

 This episode includes discussion of child death, grief, suicide and suicidal ideation, self-harm, decapitation, anaphylaxis, possession, cults, toxic parent–child relationships, intergenerational trauma, mental illness, body horror, animal death (a dog, shown after the fact), disturbing sound design (including tongue clicking and wet mouth noises), and graphic emotional distress. Also, as usual, we fully spoil Hereditary. Close your eyes around 33 and half minutes. Listener and viewer discretion is advised.

Here’s a link if you want to know more: https://bloody-disgusting.com/editorials/3535054/hereditary-hidden-clues/

Palate Cleanser:

• Heated Rivalry (HBO) - Caroline is obsessed! 
• Watching TikToks of people reacting to shows they love

Recommendations:

If Hereditary got under your skin, you might want to explore:

• Other Ari Aster films, especially Midsommar (grief, cults)
• The Sixth Sense (and our Episode 12) for another Toni Collette performance as a mom dealing with the supernatural.
• Rosemary’s Baby which is clearly an inspiration
• The Babadook — motherhood, grief, and a difficult child
• Pet Sematary (book) — Stephen King’s bleakest exploration of parental grief
• The Shining for slow-burn dread
• The Haunting of Hill House for more family trauma wrapped in horror
• Unobscured (Season 2) by Aaron Mahnke, for historical context on spiritualism 
• Sleepwalk With Me by Mike Birbiglia, for a funnier take on sleepwalking
• United States of Tara, for more Toni Collette navigating fractured identity
• The Yellow Wallpaper (see our earlier episode), for women, madness, and being trapped inside domestic spaces

Homework for Next Episode:

Watch: Captive Audience: A Real American Horror Story

We pivot back to true crime with the story of the Stayner family, another exploration of family trauma, captivity, and the long-term consequences of violence.

But before that watch:
Trainwreck: Poop Cruise (yes, really), followed by reading Mexican Gothic by Silvia Moreno-Garcia.

Special thanks to Nancy Azano for the podcast cover art (Instagram: @nancyazano) and Harry Kidd for the opening and closing score (Instagram: @harryjkidd, Spotify). 

Transcript

Anne 0:10

Welcome back to Drawn To Darkness, a sometimes weekly, sometimes biweekly podcast where we discuss our favorite horror and true crime. If you can watch an a 24 movie,, horror movie and still sleep well, we're here for you. name is Annie and I'll be introducing Caroline to my favorite horror movies, podcasts, TV shows and books.

Caroline 0:25

and my name is Caroline and I'll be doing the same from the true crime side of things.

Anne 0:29

Before we get into our focus for today, wanted to talk about a question you asked last week. You mentioned in our Eileen Warehouse episode that at one point somebody, I don't know who know, and we were saying, is that like, that on? Is that a weird thing to do to nod your head now? And you were very upset by that and I agreed with you. And so that kind of got me on a little bit of a rabbit hole. what I had discovered

Caroline 0:52

Sorry, I'm laughing at that. Very upset by that. Continue.

Anne 0:55

well, you know, you were

Caroline 0:57

I was upset. I've read it in books too, but please continue.

Anne 1:00

there are bigger things to be upset about in this world, but you were upset.

Caroline 1:04

I was. I was, yeah. Continue.

Anne 1:06

in the Western context, we shake side to side for no and we nod up and down for yes. And interestingly enough, perhaps the shaking no comes from babies moving their heads side to side to like refuse food. Isn't that interesting?

Caroline 1:18

Mm-hmm.

Anne 1:19

And according to a University of Stuttgart article I read, they have investigated the use of gestures by deaf-blind children. And it shows that they also shake their heads when they are presented with, object or food that they don't want. So this is sort of innate However, in India, Persia, Bulgaria, Turkey, and Greece, it can be the opposite. Where a single head nod can mean no. And the Greek word for yes is nay. So a yes head waggle side to side in India, which we think of as a negative head shake, can actually mean yes. And now that this has been pointed out to me, I can recall seeing an Indian colleague do that. So we go. Does that answer your

Caroline 1:51

Yeah, mostly let's use the fact that you used the word waggle. sometimes what I envisioned was happening was people were using the word nod to describe the action of a side to side motion and not an up and down motion. And I was like, nod is an up and down motion and shake is a side to side motion in my mind. So. I hear the whole like in other contexts or whatever, much like handshakes or personal distance or whatever, but I guess the descriptor was the thing. I was more confused by like how anyone, and certainly either way, this dude was from Florida, whoever said it, so

Anne 2:27

What are you saying

Caroline 2:28

I didn't understand. Well, they're not, they're Western. Western.

Anne 2:34

Well, the point is that Nod should be for up and

Caroline 2:37

Yeah.

Anne 2:38

our Western context.

Caroline 2:39

So the point is we're right.

Anne 2:41

we're right. AI description, which was the first thing I saw when I Googled. It says, we're right

Caroline 2:45

I think we should just go with that as a standard rule,

Anne 2:48

Always. I'm sure we're not. Anyway, back to our focus of the day. Did you have a dollhouse growing up?

Caroline 2:53

Yes. My grandfather made it for me for Christmas, and actually our friend, Emily's daughter has it now.

Anne 3:00

nice.

Caroline 3:01

Mm-hmm.

Anne 3:01

had a dollhouse too. Well, we didn't have a house. We had a bookcase. We converted to a house, but we had Dollhouse furniture and my sister and I used to make those like elastic band potholders and shake down our family for like a dollar a potholder so that we could save up to buy Dollhouse furniture.

Caroline 3:16

Oh, I love Dollhouse for, I love miniatures.

Anne 3:20

that must have been at least one part of this movie that you appreciated

Caroline 3:24

Absolutely.

Anne 3:24

the reason I'm asking dollhouses is because We've had a request to cover Ari Esther's debut, a 24 film Hereditary. we get into it, content and spoiler warning, you might want to close your eyes around 33 and a half minutes. Also, a dog does die though it's shown after the fact. There's child death, toxic parent relationships, mental illness, PTSD, intergenerational trauma, suicide, suicidal ideation, self-harm, anaphylaxis, graphic body horror, jump scares, possession, decapitation, emulation, yucky bugs, annoying mouth noises, and so much grief. Devastating grief this is a rough movie.

Caroline 4:01

this is a niche thing, but it is the only thing that made me gag there is also drool.

Anne 4:06

there's a lot of Juul. Yeah.

Caroline 4:07

I don't like saliva.

Anne 4:08

So first of all, what is this movie about? I'm going to spoil the heck out of this movie now. So if you want to go watch it first and come back. hereditary is heralded as one of the films to spark a new golden age in horror. This 2018 film starts with the death of Annie, played by Tony Colette's, elderly mother, Ellen or Lee. Annie isn't sure how to feel about her distant and secretive mother and works out her emotions by both expressing her feelings at a grief meeting, and through her art as a dollhouse. Miniaturists, creating re really beautiful, detailed dollhouse scenes. She has a daughter named Charlie who feels lost as she was extremely close to her grandmother, who raised her. socially isolated, doesn't make friends easily and reveals some early red flags, such as cutting a bird's head off with scissors. Shortly after her mother's death, Annie insists that Peter, her older teenage son, take Charlie to a party with devastating consequences when she goes into anaphylactic shock. eating a slice of cake with nuts in a desperate rush to get to the hospital, Peter Swerves, as Charlie sticks her head out the window to get air, and she is decapitated on a telephone pole. devastated. Joan, a woman she encounters at a grief meeting, invites her over and to perform a seance where she can communicate with Charlie. Joan gives her instructions on a ritual involving an incantation in another language, Annie takes the opportunity to communicate with her dead daughter. Or something, things began to spiral as Annie cruelly reveals her aversion to motherhood and the revelation that while sleepwalking, she nearly set herself and her children on fire. As supernatural events begin to plague the family, Annie uncovers a connection to involving a demon named peon, A god of hell who needs a male host. And that Lee, her mother, Ellen, and Joan were friends. So meeting Joan was no coincidence. Charlie is revealed to have been Pam's original host, but her female body was unsuitable for the cult and the demon. Annie realizes she's opened a door that she can't close and thinks that by burning Charlie's notebook she can expel the demon. But when she does this, she ends up emulating her husband before her eyes. Steven, at this point, things spiral quickly. Annie's possessed chases her son Peter, around the house where creepy nude cult members lurk ultimately. Gruesomely decapitating herself in the attic. jumps out the window to escape, and when he awakens, he's possessed by Paman. He finds his decapitated mother, grandmother, and sister bowed down before him. As Joan explains who he is. ends with the chilling implication that the family's fate was sealed long before the story began. But leaves open the question of what evil deeds, payment and the cult will commit now that he inhabits Peter's body. So Caroline, what adjective would you use to describe this?

Caroline 6:36

I know I've used this already on yellow wallpaper, but hella confusing. Like I was so confused,

Anne 6:43

a lot of unanswered

Caroline 6:44

but I did. Yeah. But I did read something about symbolism in the movie after the fact that filled a bunch. I mean, I think like our listeners probably could tell by now, I am not really good at subtext. Like it's not my forte. So, yeah. Confusing. Confusing.

Anne 7:00

is enhanced by research and knowing more about it and questioning it and seeing what other people say.

Caroline 7:06

Which is fun.

Anne 7:08

we're here. Right.

Caroline 7:08

Yeah.

Anne 7:09

I would describe it as tense, tortuous. found an interview with Uster saying it is a film whose primary aim is to upset the audience on a deep level. I think he's accomplished that.

Caroline 7:21

Mission accomplished.

Anne 7:23

absolutely. I mean, since you texted me like halfway through and you were like, can we. it easy on the child death. I have

Caroline 7:29

Mm

Anne 7:30

been shame, spiraling, guilt, spiraling about subjecting you to

Caroline 7:33

oh

Anne 7:34

movie because it is very traumatic

Caroline 7:37

To be fair, it's not that I am not ever recommending things where bad things happen to children. We talked very early on that my favoritism on true crime is that I don't usually have to witness the. Tragic, upsetting, anguished que screams of grief, and that really was what was making me suffer. It wasn't, you know, the acts in itself, and and it went on for so long, you know, it's like multiple scenes of it, you know, so,

Anne 8:09

grief.

Caroline 8:09

yeah.

Anne 8:10

A lot of

Caroline 8:11

Yes.

Anne 8:11

days is, about something serious or deep. in this case, it's grief, it's motherhood, it's blame. It's not just like teenagers getting picked off by some evil creature, serial killer. So, and I'm saying there hasn't been deep horror the past, but, it, a lot of horror these days has this human trauma lingering beneath the surface.

Caroline 8:30

I do appreciate how, like when I listen to recap podcasts about old shows and stuff like that, there's a lot of mention of like, and a person dies and then the next episode it's like they never existed, and I do think that writers have done a better job of making sure that people don't approach things that way'cause that's not true to life.

Anne 8:50

matters, loss

Caroline 8:51

yeah. Yeah.

Anne 8:52

you sleep after this? Did you have any trouble?

Caroline 8:54

I didn't have trouble, first of all, I had warnings. You warned me on the most graphic scenes. I had also happened upon a TikTok before this was even on our list where I knew what happens. But when I rewatched it,'cause I watched it like a month before now, and so I rewatched it recently so it would be fresh The scene where she's stabbing herself in the neck on the ceiling

Anne 9:16

awful.

Caroline 9:16

like that. I was, I was picturing that.'cause she's just like staring at him.

Anne 9:21

that is a very.

Caroline 9:21

At him while she's doing it.

Anne 9:23

and the sound effects as that's

Caroline 9:25

Yeah.

Anne 9:25

right after that scene, maybe it's after he's fallen

Caroline 9:28

Because he jumps out the window because of the naked people. Not because of Yeah. you can, yeah. You her head hum.

Anne 9:34

hear, I think it's piano wire going back and forth and then a thump.

Caroline 9:38

Yeah.

Anne 9:38

Yeah. I mean,

Caroline 9:39

Yeah.

Anne 9:39

any trouble sleeping. I generally don't. I think the last horror movie that made me have trouble sleeping was insidious years ago because there's this Evil Bride lady, and her face is just really scary. And I was picturing her in the middle of the night.

Caroline 9:52

Mm.

Anne 9:53

said, what stuck with me more were Annie screams of grief, that's harder to handle than the horror elements of this.

Caroline 9:59

Yeah.

Anne 10:00

Well, Ari asked her is the, this was his debut. I listened to an interview with him on the a podcast called Happy, sad, confused, and I really enjoyed the interview. I found him sort of funny. You might like him because he mentioned that two of his favorite movies are Death Becomes Her and Hudsucker Proxy, which I'm pretty sure you've mentioned here.

Caroline 10:15

Yes. Death becomes her. I have mentioned on this podcast. Yeah,

Anne 10:18

I feel like you mentioned Hu Sucker proxy at some point. I dunno. Did you?

Caroline 10:21

no, I've never seen that. No. I should.

Anne 10:24

it with something else that you like. I can identify with him because, like me, he became fascinated by horror movies as a kid and would study them at the video store, which is, something a lot of US, gen X millennial horror lovers have in common. He says The Hereditary is extremely personal to him, which makes me go, Ari, what happened to you? Like if this is personal. And he says there was a

Caroline 10:44

Yeah.

Anne 10:44

of family tragedies that they actually dubbed a curse.

Caroline 10:47

Hmm.

Anne 10:48

and he wanted this to be, and I quote, A family tragedy that curdles into a nightmare. Once again, mission accomplished. He makes a cameo. He's the gallery owner on the phone that's checking in on her.

Caroline 10:59

Oh,

Anne 10:59

And this is a fun fact. a preview of this played at a screening of Peter Rabbit in Australia,

Caroline 11:07

what

Anne 11:07

and like scared the shit out of a bunch of kids.

Caroline 11:09

of course. What?

Anne 11:11

think we saw Peter Robert in the theater in Australia, so it could have been us. Luckily it wasn't, but big mistake.

Caroline 11:17

Oh my God. Yeah.

Anne 11:19

note. That's a really funny movie.

Caroline 11:20

I love that movie. It has, uh, Hux from the new Star Wars movies. He's in it.

Anne 11:25

who who I love. This movie gets a 90% on Rotten Tomatoes. Tomatoes and ranked number 83 on Rolling Stones list of the 100 best movies of the 21st Century

Caroline 11:35

What?

Anne 11:36

People love this movie. It's

Caroline 11:37

Well, that, Wow. that really surprises me that it ranks so high. so one plug actually on simulation theory, again, which I think I've talked about on this podcast before, but

Anne 11:48

the Cecil episode.

Caroline 11:49

Okay. So I watched it over two days, so I paused it one night. The next day went to stop and shop, while I was at the grocery store, there was a woman there wearing a hereditary sweatshirt, like with the girl's face on it and everything.

Anne 12:03

That is very strange.

Caroline 12:04

a Charlie Head sweatshirt.

Anne 12:05

that's a weird sweatshirt.

Caroline 12:06

It's,

Anne 12:07

Um, a Rolling Stone critic also called it the scariest film of 2018. It made over 80 million on a 10 million budget, and it heralded, in my opinion, and also many other people's opinion, a much needed move away from torture porn to psychological torture and deeper horror. Having said that, get Out came out the year before, so that was involved as well in that turn, in a direction.

Caroline 12:28

I hate all those torture movies. I saw the first saw

Anne 12:32

Yeah, I've seen, saw, I couldn't bring myself to watch any of the hostile movies. it's not my kind of horror.

Caroline 12:37

no.

Anne 12:37

well I think ties into the sixth sense in more than one way. Obviously Tony Collette is the mother in both, but I feel like it's a

Caroline 12:46

Mm-hmm.

Anne 12:46

standalone without the horror elements. it's a good family drama on its own. he pitched this film as a story about a long lived possession ritual told from the perspective of the sacrificial lamb, which I think also ties into Rosemary's baby, which we covered in the past as well. If you feel like revisiting that and you know, the way they, they chant hail paman at the end and the creepy old naked cultists and the way seemingly harmless

Caroline 13:14

Yeah,

Anne 13:14

people are actually plotting against you. This is like if Rosemary had raised her demon baby, but never found out about the cult.

Caroline 13:19

this was so Rosemary's baby tied for me and my husband too. He, he also felt the same way.

Anne 13:25

I. The foreshadowing is really effective in building tension. Like, and it starts from the beginning when, Annie's speaking, she's giving the you googly and she talks about the strange new faces. And then there's this weird guy smiling at Charlie when she looks at her grandma's

Caroline 13:41

Yeah.

Anne 13:42

symbol on her necklace, there's all this foreshadowing before it really, you know, hits the fan at the, in the final third.

Caroline 13:49

So speaking of foreshadowing, I was looking at the, um, mom stuff boxes, which I thought it was such a set prop. Nobody has like perfect brown boxes of mom's stuff written perfectly on it anyway.

Anne 14:01

Those,

Caroline 14:02

Um, but

Anne 14:03

me back because we had like photo albums exactly like that in

Caroline 14:06

yeah. I actually had to make those.'cause my mom just had shoe boxes full of loose photos. And I was like, shouldn't we have albums? So I started making them. But anyway,

Anne 14:14

piecing things together if she was dealing with your mom's shoe boxes of photos

Caroline 14:18

well that was kind of a criticism, having gone through my entire family's everything, it was a lot more complicated than like, oh, this book is exactly the information I need. But, in the beginning when she opens that box and she has that note,

Anne 14:32

about

Caroline 14:32

my Darling Annie Ever, yeah, I didn't know what she was foreshadowing, but I guess I didn't remember the word sacrifice was on there.

Anne 14:41

Our sacrifice will pale next to the rewards. And I wonder, did Lee know what she was getting into? Queen

Caroline 14:47

Right,

Anne 14:48

thought that, her people would be saved. Instead, she is the sacrifice. Her daughter is the sacrifice, her granddaughter is the sacrifice.

Caroline 14:55

right.

Anne 14:56

and the other thought thing I had is that, you know, they said or Lee had dementia. also that they say Charlie was her favorite. And so I wonder if like she wanted Charlie to be the Paman, And then she got

Caroline 15:07

Yeah.

Anne 15:07

and then was overruled by the other cult members wanting to switch to a male body. Maybe her love for Charlie was, her fatal flaw

Caroline 15:15

both Charlie's'cause her son Charlie as well.

Anne 15:18

was his, was her son name Charlie, the brother

Caroline 15:20

Yeah.

Anne 15:21

Oh, I missed that

Caroline 15:21

Yeah.

Anne 15:22

Okay.

Caroline 15:22

It's in the obituary in the beginning.

Anne 15:25

Well, in terms of other foreshadowing, there's paman symbol on the telephone pole. The phone call about the desecrated grave. A bird hits a window, which is always a bad sign.

Caroline 15:35

Hmm

Anne 15:35

like, you know, when we see Charlie snip that bird head off, you're like, okay, well this is a disturbed child, but it's actually foreshadowing this interest that Payman clearly has in decapitated heads.

Caroline 15:46

Which apparently is on the picture of Paman. There's a belt of like heads there. That was in the symbolism article. but also Charlie says she wanted me to be a boy, I hope it's not super foreshadowing that she never cried. As a baby, because we always say that to my oldest.

Anne 16:03

Oh, he wasn't a crier.

Caroline 16:04

he was every nurse's favorite baby because he has never cried getting a shot ever in his life. Even as a newborn did not cry, the nurses would always be like, this is the highlight of my day,

Anne 16:14

Have you checked his pain threshold?

Caroline 16:16

now I'm nervous. No, we did we were assessing him for sensory perception, but he's, he doesn't have, um, any issues with that.

Anne 16:24

Well watch out for bird snipping.

Caroline 16:25

I will. No, he loves animals though. He would never harm an animal.

Anne 16:29

the other thing that is in this movie that I love, I love a classroom trope whatever history or. piece of

Caroline 16:35

Mm-hmm.

Anne 16:36

is foreshadowing or signposting the theme. And you know, I think this happens and it follows And you haven't seen weapons yet, which I wanna cover eventually. But the kids are learning about parasites and this, they're discussing a Greek tragedy about being pawns in a horrible, hopeless machine, implying that what happens to them is inevitable. They're doomed from the start to be bowing down headless to payment.

Caroline 16:58

It also happens in my so-called life

Anne 17:00

Oh, when can.

Caroline 17:01

Brian and Jordan. They're talking about, my mistress eyes are nothing like the sun. oh shoot, uh, I used to know this entire thing, but Kamsky is reading that poem and, Jordan and Brian are discussing what it means, and it's like, even though she's not like a, an extreme beauty and perfect, she's like flawed. She's real. And so he loves her for like her imperfectness.

Anne 17:28

I bet Dawson's Creek would have that too if we went

Caroline 17:30

Oh, I'm sure. you know what, actually the people in Dawson's Creek are so narcissistic that it probably isn't actually that relevant, but they made it relevant.

Anne 17:40

go. Well, once again, this is a Save the Cat technique. We've talked about the kind of beach sheet for screenwriting. Save the Cat in the past were a minor character. Early on states. The theme,

Caroline 17:49

Do you have hall passes in your school? I've never had a hall pass in my life. Have you,

Anne 17:54

maybe when I was in high school. Some teachers had hall passes,

Caroline 17:58

Hmm.

Anne 17:59

school teacher. Now we're not allowed to like, keep them in. If they have to go to the toilet, they can

Caroline 18:02

Yeah, it is very ridiculous. That we had to ask permission, but anyway.

Anne 18:06

can I just say, as a high school teacher, classrooms aren't that quiet. drugging these children to keep them silent? Well, this teacher lectures, I was like, I could never go on like that without losing my audience. Instantly.

Caroline 18:17

That's interesting. I don't remember anyone ever speaking in our classrooms in high school.

Anne 18:21

I feel like they're wild these days. Yeah.

Caroline 18:23

Ugh.

Anne 18:23

Um, yeah. I have to be like, work in a group on a thing so you can talk because

Caroline 18:28

Well, we were probably all just writing notes to each other. cause I definitely wrote very long PA pages of notes that I passed between classes so.

Anne 18:36

Teacher that my friend and I would make fun of her outfits and draw caricatures of like what she was wearing, but exaggerate it to the point of ridiculousness. And so now I feel like are they making fun of me in the same way?

Caroline 18:47

Uh, yeah,

Anne 18:49

Uh, well the metaphor

Caroline 18:50

probably.

Anne 18:51

as well, really plays into this theme of fate and agency and, okay, here's my Macbeth quote, life's, but a walking shadow, a poor player that struts and frets is hour upon the stage. And in this case, the stage is this dollhouse that Annie is creating and ultimately destroying the way they are also destroyed. Kind of like the way we used to play Sims. Did you ever play The Sims? I know I was really big into

Caroline 19:11

No, but yeah. You and your roommate.

Anne 19:15

unlike Frankenstein, these rooms were built on a sound stage walls could be removed to like shoot these scenes from a distance. So they really played into making the set itself look like a dollhouse or diorama, uh, lots of shots down like long hallways through doorframes wide shots that show the whole room. So it really does look like a stage. And did you think in that overhead shot of the house at one point that that was actually a miniature of the house?

Caroline 19:41

no I didn't, but at the end it seems like a miniature end when it's like

Anne 19:45

with that like slow pan around her studio and then

Caroline 19:48

Pan

Anne 19:49

I thought was

Caroline 19:49

Yeah. I thought that was cool too. That was like trippy.

Anne 19:53

And then they do the same thing at the end, but in the opposite way. We're

Caroline 19:56

Mm-hmm.

Anne 19:57

and then it looks like a miniature again. So again, just

Caroline 19:59

Yeah.

Anne 20:00

that they are being played with

Caroline 20:02

Hmm.

Anne 20:03

that she's working on also reflects her grief and anxieties. there's a really

Caroline 20:07

Oh,

Anne 20:08

one. Are we thinking of the same

Caroline 20:09

there's two uncomfortable ones. there's like the one in the beginning that she turns around

Anne 20:14

the one of, the mother offering her breast?

Caroline 20:17

And my husband kept being like, why is her boobs so big?

Anne 20:21

they were big. Yeah.

Caroline 20:23

Well, which is like, yeah, you're, you're way dried up by then.

Anne 20:27

Yeah. I don't

Caroline 20:27

It wouldn't be that swollen.

Anne 20:29

women are capable of breastfeeding. don't know.

Caroline 20:31

No, but I think the swollenness was symbolic of like the desperateness to be the mother of Charlie, you know?

Anne 20:38

over Charlie and I think Annie in grief meeting monologue talks about how she gave her to Charlie and she got her hooks into her and she talks

Caroline 20:49

Mm-hmm.

Anne 20:49

can't remember where, but like how her mother had to feed her. And that

Caroline 20:53

Mm-hmm.

Anne 20:53

of Minnie Cassavetes from Rosemary's baby making like the special or whatever for Rosemary while she was pregnant.

Caroline 21:02

Joan had a very, mini vibe.

Anne 21:04

Absolutely. Like clearly she was based on her, I mean she was less obnoxious than

Caroline 21:07

Yeah. Yes.

Anne 21:08

she was more sympathetic and grandmotherly.

Caroline 21:12

But very latch like, know?

Anne 21:14

did Annie with her special dollhouse magnifying glasses remind you of Toy Story two?

Caroline 21:18

Oh, not until you just said that No. It reminded me of my dorky husband who paints for him or toys.

Anne 21:25

know he did that.

Caroline 21:26

My God so you see behind me there's like a hundred of them in this

Anne 21:31

So

Caroline 21:32

cabinet here,

Anne 21:32

it. Let's see. Uh, the other device I wanted to mention was the sound. We already talked about Annie's head falling to the ground. That thump, but like, tongue clicking.

Caroline 21:43

which Another simulation thing. So

Anne 21:45

hear a tongue clicking? Oh my

Caroline 21:46

I what. No, so my oldest slept at a friend's house, the night that my husband and I re-watched it. And I went to pick up my son the next morning, and he was in the car with me, and he clicked his fucking tongue and I, I like, jumped. I was like, I've never heard him do that before or since

Anne 22:06

with you, the

Caroline 22:07

I might be dead. Is this really happening?

Anne 22:09

so. I feel like it's happening, but you know, I could just be part of your

Caroline 22:12

Okay. You could be

Anne 22:13

Um, other sound effects that I thought were really effective was when Peter is hiding in the attic and you hear this knocking like this really intense, rapid knocking, and then it pans down and it's Annie smashing her head against the attic door

Caroline 22:25

insane. the crackling of the body.

Anne 22:28

right when Steven gets burnt up. And the buzzing flies. I could like feel them in my mouth. So gross.

Caroline 22:34

Ugh.

Anne 22:34

well setting, very isolated, both geographically and socially in terms of their relationships. Except for really those few scenes in the classroom, the grief meetings and Jones apartment and that terrible party they went to. this movie takes place almost entirely in their house. It's very dark. I only kind of noticed how dark it was when there's one point where Annie is the street to Jen's apartment on a sunny day and it's so bright. And I was like, oh, the rest of this

Caroline 22:58

Mm-hmm.

Anne 22:58

dark. Would you ever wanna live in a house like that?

Caroline 23:01

Well, did you notice that there was yellow wallpaper upstairs?

Anne 23:04

I noticed green wallpaper was there yellow wallpaper too?

Caroline 23:06

the upstairs hallway has yellow wallpaper. there's was wallpaper in pretty much every room. I was just like, I feel like ever since I mentioned who has wallpaper, I am just constantly confronted with very tasteful wallpaper.

Anne 23:20

Well, and now I'll never look at yellow wallpaper the same way. See our

Caroline 23:23

Never,

Anne 23:24

Perkins Gilman's the yellow wallpaper.

Caroline 23:26

I also really hated, when they're eating dinner at that table, that's like, feels like it's in the middle of their living room. Like based on the layout of the house. As we understand it, I feel like the kitchen is like past the staircase and they're eating over near the front door and it's like they're eating a sit down dinner with a bunch of stuff on the table, which is another like trope of movies and tv. Nobody brings out dishes of stuff every night for dinner. I usually plate stuff in the kitchen and then bring the plates out. don't you,

Anne 23:53

mean, don't ask me about our dinner habits. They're pathetic.

Caroline 23:56

if you're all gonna sit down together, you're not like bringing plates of like things for people to serve themselves.

Anne 24:02

dining room, our table, it's not dining room. It's like right next to the kitchen counter, basically. Like, it's very

Caroline 24:07

Hmm. Yeah. So long-winded way of saying, no, I don't wanna live in that house. Do want the miniatures.

Anne 24:14

But I mean, you do your in-laws lake house in New Hampshire, it kind of reminded me of that nestled in the trees isolated, far away. And I love houses like that I'm drawn to living in a place like that where I, you know, I'm just alone. And, but then I watch

Caroline 24:31

Oh my god.

Anne 24:33

uh, I don't know.

Caroline 24:33

I know. I'm the opposite. I grew up like that. Like as you know, the house I grew up in, the nature conservatory ended in our backyard. So it was literally like the backyard was just woods for miles and miles. But then once I lived in a city, every time I came home, you just hear one snap of a twig outside the window and you're like, what was that? You know, like if there's not a constant buzz, it kind of freaks me out.

Anne 24:54

And, what we're going to be covering in a few weeks made me, wary of being alone in, say, a national park. Anyway, some context that we might want to cover is spiritualism. Because Annie finds her mother's book notes on spiritualism. as you know, I try to go on some sort of deep dive surrounding whatever we're covering. And this time my little side quest was spiritualism, which I knew a bit about just from years of exposure to horror and true crime. But like Aaron Mankey, who does lore, and he has, um,, another podcast called Unobscured. He does a season on the Salem Witch trials, which is fantastic, and his podcasts are really depth, subdued academic interviews with professors. But it's basically this history of the mid 18 hundreds and it touches on so much of the media. We've covered like the suffragette movements, which links into the yellow wallpaper. Our Christmas Carol since Dickens was interested in spiritualism abolitionism, which ties into our Tuskegee syphilis study episode. so it talks about how the spirituals movement was really tied in with, progressive ideas. but one of the reasons it started was this desire to contact the dead because of grief. And how much we want to believe there's something beyond the here and now. but I think Joan is exploiting spiritualism and exploiting grief. the history of spiritualism is also riddled with people who were grifting and also exploiting other people's

Caroline 26:13

Mm-hmm.

Anne 26:13

So I just think that was some interesting context. If you wanna know more about the Fox Sisters and that movement, check out Unobscured.

Caroline 26:21

Laura is good too.

Anne 26:22

Laura.

Caroline 26:22

I enjoyed Laura.

Anne 26:23

to all of Laura at one point. It was one of my early podcasts that I loved. Well, let's talk about characters. Annie by Tony Collette. Awesome. In this, did you have any favorite moments with her?

Caroline 26:34

Yes. when she says, when you, that you look at me with that face on your face.

Anne 26:39

A fucking face on your face. Yeah. We've all felt that.

Caroline 26:43

I just loved that. Yeah, exactly. I had, that was a TikTok I had seen. Yeah. I had seen that scene on TikTok months ago.

Anne 26:51

That very tense dinner speech.

Caroline 26:54

But it, it also reminded me in, Jason confused when Parker Poseys, like, pop the face of your head, bitch.

Anne 27:00

I mean, she just shows such amazing range in this, from that scene

Caroline 27:05

Mm-hmm.

Anne 27:05

she's irritated, she's furious, she's sad, there's that one moment where the rage is just taking over her face and Steven's trying to tell her to calm down. And, and then, what, you were really bothered by that primal scream of grief. I re-watched it as

Caroline 27:20

Yeah.

Anne 27:21

like. i sped through that scene, the grief, because I was like, I don't wanna watch that again.

Caroline 27:25

Speaking of taking over her when she says I never wanted to be her mother and like covers her mouth, the way she emotes that, it's like she vomited those words, you know,

Anne 27:35

I think the writing there is so good. I never wanted to be your mother. It's way more cutting than I never wanted to be mother.

Caroline 27:41

I said the same thing.

Anne 27:43

So cruel. But she doesn't actually say

Caroline 27:45

Because then she,

Anne 27:46

dream, I think.

Caroline 27:47

yeah, it's a dream. But then when she goes on, her qualifiers don't sound as targeted, but the first sentence that comes out is pretty brutal.

Anne 27:56

it back physically.

Caroline 27:57

Yeah.

Anne 27:58

the dinner scene's not a dream though, like that happens.

Caroline 28:00

the dinner scene happens. Yeah.

Anne 28:02

unfair to Peter. were talking about the minister before and we talked about the breastfeeding grandmother, but we didn't talk about her making a neutral view of the accident.

Caroline 28:11

Hmm.

Anne 28:11

when

Caroline 28:11

Yeah,

Anne 28:12

in and is like, you are not gonna let him see that. And she's like, who? not even thinking about

Caroline 28:17

I I know. It's really insane. Also, in that dinner scene, I, I get that she's mad that he let her find her. I would understand that he was in shock and a child, and that would've been why. But I feel like,, that's something I'm never gonna not be able to see every time I close my eyes, and that would be a hard thing for me to let go of. But not only does he mention, which was my first thought, why was she even at the party? She didn't wanna go. She forced her to go. First of all, I'm a bit more realistic. If my older kid is going to a party and I say, don't drink, I'm gonna hope he's not drinking. But I'm certainly not gonna be like, bring a sibling of yours because mm-hmm.

Anne 29:00

and he's

Caroline 29:01

That'll make you not drink. Like, no, that'll, that'll mean both of you get in an accident instead of one of you if you decide to drink. You know, like, right? Not that I'm would be willing to sacrifice any one of them, but I'm certainly not gonna like add a one to the equation She knew it was a barbecue, supposedly. Why didn't she bring an EpiPen? Although I've never put nuts in a cake. I don't know what high schoolers doing that, but

Anne 29:24

school thing to do.

Caroline 29:25

no,

Anne 29:26

for high

Caroline 29:26

I'm a full adult and I've never done that. but then also like when they get home, she's not waiting up for them. Especially if Charlie never, ever goes out, I would be a nervous wreck. I would at least wake up when they got home, if I happened to fall asleep, you know?

Anne 29:41

Yeah. And she's so ready to blame Peter, not take on any of that blame herself for putting Charlie in that position, for putting him in that position to begin with.

Caroline 29:49

Yeah. For all the ways that she wasn't doing her job as the parent.

Anne 29:53

I do think it's interesting the way it explores maternal blame. I'd love that line. I am to blame versus I am blamed and it's in that, grief monologue.

Caroline 30:03

mm

Anne 30:04

Yeah, so she's an ambivalent mother, but she's destroyed by Charlie's death.

Caroline 30:09

Well, it does seem, like a outs sizely intense for the relationship that you see of them. Before that, I don't know that you feel like they're super attached.

Anne 30:19

they're actually close. I think

Caroline 30:21

Yeah.

Anne 30:21

grandmother raised Charlie, and then she's in that goodnight bedroom scene. I think she's playing the close mother. The,

Caroline 30:28

Mm-hmm.

Anne 30:29

She wants to be, she's like, I'm gonna take care of you. Of course, but then you see later her true feelings when Charlie's wandering around outside barefoot and she like really yells at

Caroline 30:37

Yeah.

Anne 30:37

is.

Caroline 30:38

but even that, who's gonna take care of me response? when she says, when you die, what would your response to that be? Because mine would be like, you don't need to worry about that. I wouldn't be like, well then your father or Peter, I would be like, well, that's not the way things happen. you're gonna be an adult when I die. like is what I would, comfort.

Anne 30:57

to that question and I've said something along the lines of, well, you know, that that sort of thing doesn't happen to most people. Yes, it's possible,

Caroline 31:04

Right.

Anne 31:04

chances are

Caroline 31:05

Right. You would comfort them first,

Anne 31:07

and you don't have to worry about that.

Caroline 31:08

right? You would comfort them. You wouldn't just like answer the question

Anne 31:11

well, I think maybe she doesn't know how, Because,

Caroline 31:13

I agree.

Anne 31:15

of a narcissistic mother, you know, and, and that's

Caroline 31:17

True.

Anne 31:17

we're dealing with like she says, at one point, I did her, she says it, and I can't remember if it that's in the eulogy or the grief meeting monologue, you know, she's so resentful and that, you know, everything she reveals about her mother shows that she was raised in a very toxic environment. So she probably doesn't know how to comfort and how to love and how to be a good mother herself.

Caroline 31:37

It is interesting that the mom forced her to go to Grief Group. I went to Al-Anon once as a child. With my friend Ty. Hi Ty, who is a loyal listener. she and I. We're forced by my mother, kind of for her mother to take us to an Al-Anon meeting when we were little. And I remember we were both just like, this is so awkward and so uncomfortable and I hated it so much. then afterward, to make the best of the day, she took us to Boston Chicken, which is now Boston Market, I think. Right?

Anne 32:10

my parents used to buy me a goldfish after church.

Caroline 32:13

Wait, what? Every week

Anne 32:15

was every week because they would like die by the next week. And I'd be like, okay, let's replace this goldfish. And I don't know how accurate that memory is, but I remember like than once being rewarded for church with a goldfish,

Caroline 32:26

I got a candy bar.

Anne 32:27

you gotta bribe them some

Caroline 32:29

We.

Anne 32:29

or another.

Caroline 32:29

I definitely my, no, my mom, she definitely, she would go, we would go to the pharmacy and she would get the newspaper and a candy bar for me.

Anne 32:36

Well, is it in the grief monologue? I can't remember. Or maybe it's to Joan where we find out about her sleepwalking and dowsing herself in the kids in paint thinner and coming this

Caroline 32:47

That's the Joan. Yeah.

Anne 32:49

And I think she says There's nothing I can say. Nothing I can do because it happened. I feel like that applies to a lot of this movie. She

Caroline 32:55

Hmm

Anne 32:56

Charlie go to that party. Charlie is dead. There's nothing you can say or do because it happened.

Caroline 33:01

mm-hmm.

Anne 33:01

you stay with someone who had done that in their sleep?

Caroline 33:04

so I'm reminded of Mike Bur Bigley is sleepwalk with me. Which was a standup show that I saw that then was also made into a movie. But he sleepwalks he jumped out of a, um, LA Quinta Inn in Walla Walla, Washington. Sleepwalking. He thought a jackal was following him. It's hilarious. Please, highly recommend listen to Sleepwalk with me. he bought like, it's kind of like a onesie sleep. Like he has to be like zipped into it for sleeping. So long-winded answer, I would have some criteria

Anne 33:33

because

Caroline 33:33

around that. That would be for safety.

Anne 33:36

it wouldn't happen again? It's not just harming herself,

Caroline 33:38

Totally. I mean, my husband has punched me before in his sleep and I've been nervous, you know, he just like punched me once in the stomach and once in the face. But not like hard, you know, just like he's asleep and he's fighting something. I don't know. Some war him or creature?

Anne 33:54

One thing I wonder about the dowsing the children in lighter fluid is did part of her deep down subconsciously know about the possession that something wasn't right?

Caroline 34:03

possibly.

Anne 34:04

But I mean, I think with her, we should talk about the title Hereditary, talks about this history of mental illness in her family that her father. Died of starvation her brother hanged himself and had schizophrenia because he accused her mother of putting people inside him So these two men in her family apparently the story is that they have some sort of mental illness, but really I think it's pretty clear that no one is actually ill. They're

Caroline 34:27

Right.

Anne 34:28

that the mother was trying to put someone in him

Caroline 34:30

Mm-hmm.

Anne 34:30

and she wanted to do the same to Peter, but she took Charlie as a placeholder.

Caroline 34:34

So until the article I read today, I have to confess that I did not understand at all that anyone other than Charlie and Peter were possessed at any point. So I was really confused why it was called a ary I sort of attributed that light that flashes, you know, that like traveling light to be the spirit and when it goes through her bedroom, when she's doing crafts or whatever before the bird dies, but she's doing similar crafts, I thought that's when the spirit takes over her. from the article on symbolism, I read that it has possessed Charlie since birth, according to the articles. So Charlie has never been Charlie. but it prefers a male host. And then Peter, after he jumps out the window,

Anne 35:17

I read somewhere, I think it was on Reddit, that there's a maybe father, son and Holy Ghost thing going on, that he has

Caroline 35:23

oh

Anne 35:24

there's clearly something flitting about, right? Because if Charlie is possessed, what is that thing? What is that blue light?

Caroline 35:31

Right.

Anne 35:32

light something awful is about to happen. So maybe he has different manifestations, but a

Caroline 35:38

Mm-hmm.

Anne 35:39

body that he mostly resides in, because clearly, yes, other people get possessed. Let's see. Before we move on from Annie, there was just one thing I wanted to say about her. One of my absolute favorite scenes when she is begging her husband Steven, to throw the notebook in the fire.

Caroline 35:56

journal. Yeah.

Anne 35:58

and desperate and begging and like her hand motions and the way she's speaking and the way she's breathing. And then she's like, I love you. You're the love of my life. And it is heartbreaking.

Caroline 36:06

Mm-hmm.

Anne 36:06

that yes, there was love there and how hard it is for him to watch her be like that. And just thought that was such a impactful scene.

Caroline 36:14

I was a little distracted by why she didn't have more questions about the grave when he was like, you're the one who vandalized the grave. she's like, what? You're not listening to me, blah, blah, blah. And I get that she's on a tear, but I feel like I'd be like, sorry, what? Now? My mom's grave was vandalized, know?

Anne 36:30

she already knows about the body in the attic at that point.

Caroline 36:33

you're right. Yeah.

Anne 36:34

think this is an example of horror being overlooked, because I think if this had not been a possession movie, any family drama about grief and loss, she would've been nominated for an Oscar.

Caroline 36:42

Mm.

Anne 36:43

Well, should we talk about our early childhood? Crush. Lori? No, not Lori.

Caroline 36:49

Oh, no, he's not Lori. He's the guy in the city that, the writer that she meets, um, he's German. I wanna say Wilhelm, but I don't think that's rights. Just a German sounding name.

Anne 37:00

Gabriel Byrne playing Steve the

Caroline 37:02

Yeah,

Anne 37:03

Of all, his email inbox is empty. Did you notice that

Caroline 37:06

I should have, but no, I didn't notice.

Anne 37:08

or not he should basically have Annie committed? I was like, he has one email. How

Caroline 37:12

Mm.

Anne 37:12

I could never be like that.

Caroline 37:13

I have often showed off my outlook I'm a bit obsessive filer, my inbox is my active to-do list and my scent is what people owe me. And so that's what I use like Outlook that way.

Anne 37:25

I am a person who has 50 tabs open and a inbox of chaos.

Caroline 37:29

that gives me stress.

Anne 37:31

is the trope of the disbelieving husband to the manic wife, but she's right and I think he has a few brief seconds to realize this as he spontaneously combusts. And generally I hate that guy, right? The husband who doesn't believe the wife. But I feel like he plays it with such, stoicism and dismay. Like he's, you know, barely holding it together, but trying to be the

Caroline 37:51

Yeah. I, I don't even see him as the husband who doesn't believe the wife as much as I see as the husband who's trying to be a father to, to a son whose life is never gonna be the same. I think he is so centered around being the right parent, and he has to be a little bit because she is not interested in that at all. Right, right.

Anne 38:14

Yeah. Like he's reminding Peter to sign up for his SAT class he's constantly like

Caroline 38:19

He's cooking dinner.

Anne 38:20

and checking on people and putting his hand on

Caroline 38:23

Mm-hmm.

Anne 38:23

you he's the one trying to be reasonable and the rock.

Caroline 38:27

Yeah. He's the one who's trying to keep it all together because somebody has to.

Anne 38:30

that, that how families balance out because what other choices there,

Caroline 38:33

Right?

Anne 38:34

studying force to her increasing hysteria, you can see him. Watching her unravel and just not being able to stop it. And that dismay.

Caroline 38:43

Yeah. Oh. This is a pet peeve of mine. Why? Nobody ever stop drops and rolls on tv, ever, ever, ever. I have never,

Anne 38:51

roll. Yeah.

Caroline 38:52

I've never seen that on TV or film, and we all learn it.

Anne 38:57

Well, I think for him it's late,

Caroline 38:59

Well, yeah, for him, it's too late. She doesn't do it either. When her arm. Yeah.

Anne 39:04

and roll. I think obviously there's something supernatural going on, so it wouldn't have mattered. But your instinct should be stop, drop, and roll. Right?

Caroline 39:10

It should be.

Anne 39:11

survival tip,

Caroline 39:12

Were you there when I was set on fire? No, it was in the computer lab.

Anne 39:15

How did that happen?

Caroline 39:16

I was wearing, at the time it was very trendy to have sweaters with lots of like fuzz.

Anne 39:20

fuzzy sweaters.

Caroline 39:21

Yeah, fuzzy sweaters. And Jeff, flicked my, he like, rubbed his lighter down my arm just to annoy me.'cause he was like essentially a brother, just a little brother. Always me. Anyway, um, he did that and everything just like lit up my first thought was to stop, drop and roll, but I couldn't because there was a wall behind me a desk of tons of computers in front of me. And a person on my right and a person on my left. So he and whoever was on the other side of me just started swatting me until I went out. And then I looked up and the whole class was looking at me. So embarrassing.

Anne 39:56

of those sweaters? My God. flammable?

Caroline 39:58

Yeah. A polyester or something. I dunno.

Anne 40:00

Well, at least you had the right instinct.

Caroline 40:02

Mm-hmm.

Anne 40:03

All right, let's talk about Charlie. Played by Millie Shapiro, and I always kind of feel bad for actors who are cast as creepy.

Caroline 40:09

Yeah.

Anne 40:09

I think she was up for the role of Carrie in the New Mike Flanagan version, but ultimately they went with someone else, but she would've been good. She has

Caroline 40:16

Mm-hmm.

Anne 40:16

Cranial Osis Osis. I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing that right, but that's the same thing that, Gatton Matzo has from Stranger Things, and I found a picture of them together online. They're adorable.

Caroline 40:26

Oh, that's so cool. shout out to my brother-in-law. We were talking, he was trying to share that information with us, but he said he had no bones. And

Anne 40:35

accurate.

Caroline 40:35

like, there is no way. There's an actor in this movie, in this show that has no bones.

Anne 40:41

so yeah, Charlie, so many questions. What you asked about before, was Charlie ever, Charlie, was she always paman? And I think Ari asked her, has confirmed like no, whoever Charlie was when she was born, that spirit was displaced. she's sort of sweet and vulnerable, but also off-putting. I know you haven't seen the Babadook yet, but there's a really. to be around kid in that. and so she's not like that like, but she's,

Caroline 41:04

Why does she love chocolate? Is that a devil thing?

Anne 41:07

maybe, don't know. But they definitely focus on her eating a lot of candy and chocolate.

Caroline 41:12

she's eating m and MSS in her bedroom when she's doing her arts and crafts.

Anne 41:15

that weird clicking noise like donkey and Shrek too.

Caroline 41:18

Ugh.

Anne 41:19

And then she's like stuffing the bird head and scissors in her pocket. Reminded of Napoleon Dynamite with like tater tots

Caroline 41:24

Mm-hmm. Gimme some of your tots.

Anne 41:26

So there's a lot of red flags with Charlie. and then she felt very, um, Sid from Toy Story. This is my second toy story reference.

Caroline 41:33

Mm.

Anne 41:33

you know, with the way she's putting things

Caroline 41:35

But you mentioned Sid before in other episodes too. He really had an impact on you. I,

Anne 41:40

on me. making that little, like all these little tin men and like putting things together in weird

Caroline 41:45

mm-hmm.

Anne 41:46

which is very similar to Sid.

Caroline 41:47

That's interesting.'cause I likened it to being like her mother. You know, her mother's doing it professionally to create miniatures, but she's creating people and, you know,

Anne 41:56

this kind of more disturbing, well, actually, I don't know if it's more disturbing. I mean, her mother makes some pretty disturbing

Caroline 42:01

just thought it was Yeah. I thought it was just like the materials at her disposal,

Anne 42:05

some people have posited that Charlie is so strange because. Haman is in the wrong place. It's like a body rejecting an organ and he's in this like hibernation holding pattern while he waits to be awakened to his true self.

Caroline 42:19

that's interesting because I, kept thinking to myself, why does Peter smile at his reflection?

Anne 42:26

I reckon that's, this is where I wanna be. Haman

Caroline 42:29

Right.

Anne 42:30

happy.

Caroline 42:30

yeah.

Anne 42:31

this is where I'm end

Caroline 42:33

Norm?

Anne 42:33

because obviously payment is helping the cult members, if payment is that little flitting light, he's things in that direction. We probably need to talk about

Caroline 42:41

Yeah,

Anne 42:42

scene. You

Caroline 42:43

sure. I did, what I was surprised by was that the poll had the symbol on it beforehand. I was surprised at how many ways the movie made me be less upset by the prospect of something like this happening. So. All of the ways that we already talked about where Annie is culpable for this even happening. and then, the symbol being on there, which made me feel like, oh, this was intended to happen. And the, way that you don't feel like this little girl was beloved. And so, I feel like I was, more surprised knowing going into it that a child was gonna be decapitated in a vehicle her brother was driving. I was surprised by how un upsetting it ended up being.

Anne 43:28

but it's

Caroline 43:29

Right?

Anne 43:30

we know it is

Caroline 43:30

Yeah.

Anne 43:31

symbol is on the pole. And you know,

Caroline 43:32

Mm-hmm.

Anne 43:33

they have predicted that Peter would swerve in that moment, in exactly that way? Like how much control do they have? But obviously there's demonic forces at work, so they must have that type of control because they're

Caroline 43:43

Right.

Anne 43:44

But wants this body, which I think ties back into the smile at his reflection.

Caroline 43:48

Mm-hmm.

Anne 43:49

Astor calls this the Janet Lee stepping into the shower scene To be like, okay, we're going there. We're killing off a kid.

Caroline 43:55

Mm-hmm.

Anne 43:55

but I was more affected by the allergic reaction scene. up the decapitation was not as shocking to me as watching her. Gasp for breath.

Caroline 44:05

Actually watching him, the way he carried her out, that haunted me because that is a big brother. I actually have visions'cause I knew my sister-in-law when she was six, Like, I met my husband in high school, so I have witnessed him carry her that way, I have been carried by my much older brother that way. It was a very intimate, sibling loving scene to see, to know what's about to happen, you know? Mm-hmm.

Anne 44:31

unable to breathe?

Caroline 44:32

other than getting the wind knocked outta me. No, I've never had like asthma or anything like that. Have you?

Anne 44:36

pneumonia freshman year of high school. And I remember I was walking up or down the stairs to my bedroom and I started coughing and my throat closed up

Caroline 44:44

Mm,

Anne 44:45

like 10 seconds or something

Caroline 44:46

mm-hmm.

Anne 44:47

and coughing and trying to clear it. that's when my parents took me to hos the hospital because it was very serious. And, it was very, very scary because I didn't, my throat did clear, but I didn't know it was going to, you know, I was like, what if

Caroline 44:59

Right.

Anne 44:59

what if I can't breathe?

Caroline 45:00

The panic. Yeah.

Anne 45:01

scary.

Caroline 45:02

I did carry my son into the hospital, unable to breathe, like at in the morning. he had lung problems as a child he had RSV and He was laying on the bed going, and I just threw him in the backseat of the car and sped to the hospital and he stayed at the hospital for four days

Anne 45:21

very scary.

Caroline 45:22

Mm

Anne 45:23

about Peter played by Alex Wolf, who is also in Jumanji. you seen Jumanji yet?

Caroline 45:28

Nepo baby. I was reading. Yeah. He's a Nepo baby. But he was great. he's both sides and like grandparents and everything, so he's, he's very, very connected.

Anne 45:38

about Nepo babies, a lot of them can be great, right? I think what's

Caroline 45:41

Yeah.

Anne 45:41

about it, so for example, like people have said, okay, well if you've got a family of lawyers and your kid ends up a lawyer, well, like, isn't that natural? Right? And I'm from a

Caroline 45:49

Sure.

Anne 45:50

teachers like my mom, my dad, my brother, his wife, But the difference is it's easy to become a teacher. There's no luck in becoming a teacher, right?

Caroline 45:57

Great.

Anne 45:58

acting, there's luck involved and that element of luck is taken away for those nepo babies, which it unfair. But some of them are very talented, So I guess that's just

Caroline 46:05

Yeah.

Anne 46:05

is. What can we do?

Caroline 46:06

I think he does an incredible job.

Anne 46:08

And he's, he's cute in Jumanji too.

Caroline 46:09

I only saw the first ti like within the past year. yeah.

Anne 46:13

the new Jumanji. They're delightful. I mean that smiling scene in the reflection at class, I saw this movie when it first came out, then the last month. But when I think about this movie, it's that smiling scene that I remember that, and the decapitation,, because an uncanny smile is so creepy.

Caroline 46:29

It really is.

Anne 46:30

I think his scene that was most difficult to watch for me is that, you know, his driving has resulted in Charlie's decapitation and he's just so disassociated and just in his car. In shock. So traumatized, how do you move on? How do you even start the car again? And then he just lies awake all night waiting for someone to discover Charlie in the backseat. And it's horrible thing to do put his family in that situation where they're gonna discover her that way. But at the same time, he's just a teenage boy who's so traumatized in that moment.

Caroline 46:59

Right.

Anne 46:59

And then, you know, he's having panic attacks when he is smoking pot under the bleachers,

Caroline 47:04

Yeah.

Anne 47:05

where he is in the classroom and he kind of, his eyes drift up and you see him seeing the rear view mirror in

Caroline 47:10

Mm-hmm.

Anne 47:10

like all these moments are coming back to him. And think one moment I really thought was also very powerful is he kind of comes home and I think at this point, Annie's waiting in the car and he puts his bike down

Caroline 47:20

Yeah,

Anne 47:21

before he goes inside because he knows he's gonna have to face his family and he just needs to steal himself before he goes in.

Caroline 47:27

she looks so unbothered by that.'cause I saw that with such pity and, empathy and she's just like pissed. Um,

Anne 47:36

wrath.

Caroline 47:36

what is going on in that scene when he's like having a stroke essentially in the class, his hand raises up

Anne 47:44

And his eye

Caroline 47:45

and then he's got like,

Anne 47:46

he smashes his face in. As a teacher that scene gives me so much anxiety. what if a kid did that in class? I.

Caroline 47:53

yeah.

Anne 47:54

think Payman is just trying to drive him insane. he will

Caroline 47:58

Oh, right. To be a weak host. Yeah. He finds the most whatever susceptible.

Anne 48:04

And there's

Caroline 48:05

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Anne 48:06

shows up at school she's yelling at Peter and

Caroline 48:09

And no one else hears her.

Anne 48:11

like, is this in his head? It might be.

Caroline 48:13

I know

Anne 48:14

react she's yelling at weird things, which I meant to look up like zine

Caroline 48:19

she yells out some of the words that are written down on the walls. yeah.

Anne 48:24

Peter, get out. that's how that scene ends. So I feel like that's going on is just torturing Peter so that he will get out

Caroline 48:32

Well, what's weird cause she calls him Charlie.

Anne 48:35

at the end. I guess the idea is the past 13 years, Payman has been addressed as Charlie and maybe just needs to adjust.

Caroline 48:42

and even before that with Annie's sibling.

Anne 48:44

I also feel like the way he cries is uncomfortable and odd. Like he really sobs in a way that feels like he's too old to cry like that. And the way he says mommy, which

Caroline 48:54

Yeah.

Anne 48:54

is so Like it works for me. I think it's speaking to distraught he is.

Caroline 48:59

The mommy. Really? Yeah. That impacted me as well.

Anne 49:03

anything else you wanna say about Peter? Other than that we knew a

Caroline 49:05

Lemme just check.

Anne 49:06

Guitar, strumming, potheads.

Caroline 49:08

Seriously. Uh, some of them set me on fire. Um, Nope, I don't have anything else.

Anne 49:13

last main character that we need to talk about is then Joan, who we've already described as the mini cassette from Rosemary's Baby, manipulating Annie. We think she's just a kind older woman also suffering from grief, but it's a lie. It's all manipulation. To get Annie to, I guess, say those words, to invite Paman in and start the ritual, thought she was played by Margot Martindale. Do you get Ann Dow and Margot Martindale confused? It's like this big thing online. Have you heard about that?

Caroline 49:39

No, but I can see it now. Yeah.

Anne 49:41

head I was picturing Margot Martindale, and then I, I was like, wait, no, that's not Margo Martindale. That's Ann

Caroline 49:46

Yeah.

Anne 49:46

Lydia from The Handmaid's Tale, where she's. Absolutely chilling.

Caroline 49:50

I have not watched Handmaids Tale. I don't think I can handle it.

Anne 49:54

Especially now. Especially now.

Caroline 49:56

Right, exactly. And now it's even harder than it would've been if I had just watched it in the beginning. But I thought she was phenomenal. effing incredible. Even when she's like, you know, my, my son died or whatever. Like the way her face just transforms in an instant,

Anne 50:12

that's a lie, but it might not be.

Caroline 50:15

It might not be.

Anne 50:16

happened long before and then she's calling up this memory to be more. Believable for Annie.

Caroline 50:21

So I was just thinking if it was true because between. Annie's brother dying and Oh, no, but she said it was a few months ago.

Anne 50:30

said it was a few

Caroline 50:31

I was just thinking at some.

Anne 50:32

was in the

Caroline 50:32

Yeah.

Anne 50:33

we see old photos of her with

Caroline 50:35

Right. And she's got the obviously very recognizable custom doormat that says Joanie, like Annie. Hello.

Anne 50:44

Red flag. Red flag. You should have had your

Caroline 50:46

Yeah.

Anne 50:47

antenna up there. I

Caroline 50:48

Right.

Anne 50:49

Scenes is when Annie's trying to get back to her house and it kind of pans over Joan's table and we see Peter's like in a triangle, a picture of Peter in a triangle. And there's three headless bottle doll things that look like what Charlie was

Caroline 51:02

Mm-hmm.

Anne 51:02

then like maybe a mouse or a rat, and a bird head, like surrounded by candles. That's the moment we realize for sure Joan is not to be trusted.

Caroline 51:10

Why doesn't she have to be naked?

Anne 51:12

Maybe she's higher up in the hierarchy and nudity is about vulnerability and giving yourself up to the demon,

Caroline 51:18

So you earn clothes like a, like a cult?

Anne 51:21

There's diff there's hierarchies and cults

Caroline 51:23

Mm-hmm.

Anne 51:24

I mean, yeah, I guess you could wonder how complicit is Joan. Like maybe she. Was also roped in because of a death and grief long before. Like I know she wasn't roped in recently because of the old photos, but maybe not a hundred percent lying. Would you ever do a

Caroline 51:37

Mm-hmm. Uh, sure.

Anne 51:39

it's a wrong answer.

Caroline 51:40

I feel fairly confident nothing will happen, I mean, it's just like the Ouija board for me.

Anne 51:47

do it. It's just like the oui you word for me.

Caroline 51:48

Yeah. I figured.

Anne 51:50

Macbeth quote. When banquet is telling Macbeth not to trust the witches, he says to win us to our harm. The instruments of darkness. Tell us truths. Win us with honest trifles to betray us in deepest consequences. My theory is that that's what Joan does, that she maybe did experience grief and she's using a touch of honesty betray.

Caroline 52:08

yeah, it goes along with our central ethos, which has been hurt People hurt people, right? Which is not breaking, news or whatever, but, hot take.

Anne 52:17

people.

Caroline 52:18

You heard here first.

Anne 52:21

All right. let's talk about the cult a little bit. Like in Rosemary's Baby it's real within this story, within this world. When we did our episode on Heaven's Gate, we've got this cult trying to bring about revelations transformation type of event. And obviously it's not real, and those people just died. But by the end of this, given what Annie's character goes through, Floating and the way she can move around that house, it's pretty clear that there actually are evil forces at work here. So one of my big questions is, what the hell do they want, why did they choose Payman? what, what do they wanna get out of him

Caroline 52:52

Yeah. so much, I don't super understand. I don't really know what they want or what they could possibly expect will happen. Now there's like a lot of dead bodies and those dead bodies have like mortgages and bills and jobs. What would you, where would you go from here? this teenage boys just gonna be able to like walk outta here when there's a burnt parent and a headless parent? They didn't do that to themselves.

Anne 53:17

the body somehow, it's like, well, where did they go?

Caroline 53:19

right.

Anne 53:20

I

Caroline 53:20

yeah. Sorry,

Anne 53:21

Joan is like, corrected our error and given you a healthy male host. like if I were payment, I'd be like, like my nose is broken. you know, like why, why didn't

Caroline 53:32

I'm a pothead.

Anne 53:33

find me like a Chris Evans type, you know, to be,

Caroline 53:36

Yeah, go find me that Dick from Stranger Things. What was his name? Jason?

Anne 53:41

Like this is the type of guy that can then, manipulate the public to, achieve evil deeds. I don't know, maybe he's Steven Miller now, maybe this character became somebody like that who is now sewing discord.

Caroline 53:53

I think he's more A RFK.

Anne 53:56

There's plenty

Caroline 53:57

But anyway,

Anne 53:58

people in power that we could say Payman

Caroline 54:00

plenty of deranged, lunatic and power with family curses.

Anne 54:05

Oh yeah. The Kennedys definitely have a family curse. well, let's talk about the scariest, most disturbing part. I mean, the, the final third of this is just horror.

Caroline 54:16

Mm-hmm.

Anne 54:16

a, as usual, I listened to the last podcast on the left about this and Henry Zuki

Caroline 54:20

No.

Anne 54:21

likes the off

Caroline 54:21

Mm-hmm.

Anne 54:22

aspect of it because you get catharsis and otherwise it would just be sad add,

Caroline 54:26

there's definitely like a payoff.'cause I will say it's slow. the movie is very slow and there's even like reactions within a scene are slow, so there has to be a very intense payoff and mission accomplished.

Anne 54:40

final half hour, I'm just like bracing myself the whole time.

Caroline 54:43

Why did the dog have to die?

Anne 54:45

Maybe they had that scene filmed and then they cut it. I don't know. But I mean when you talk about slow, for example, when Annie is possessed and she's like up in the corner of the room and Peter's slowly walking through discovering his father's body, how long do they make us wait for that jump scare when she starts running? Which really

Caroline 55:03

I mean, I didn't even notice her,

Anne 55:05

to notice

Caroline 55:06

I didn't even notice her in the beginning of that. I don't notice her until she's like floating out of the room in the beginning, floating outta the bedroom. But she's there from when he

Anne 55:13

She's

Caroline 55:13

up.

Anne 55:14

It's horrifying.

Caroline 55:15

Ugh. I heard in the movie theater, it was very intense and it's not quite the same at home, and it's certainly not the same on an iPad, which is what I used the first time I watched it.

Anne 55:24

big, screen.

Caroline 55:24

the second time we watched it, it was on a big screen and I was like, what? There's a person walking. Like, I didn't even notice

Anne 55:30

Well,

Caroline 55:30

that. So,

Anne 55:31

of it on a laptop my first time, and there's the scene at the beginning where Ellen is present in the room and Annie staring at the corner and I

Caroline 55:39

yeah,

Anne 55:40

what is she looking at? And then I watched it on the big tv. I was like, oh, Ellen's there. There's a few other good jump scares, like when Annie's coming back from the seance and she hears the tongue clicking in the backseat.

Caroline 55:50

The, the tongue clicking is a good jump scare

Anne 55:53

So simple,

Caroline 55:54

Yeah. Yeah,

Anne 55:55

And then in the dream where she's talking to Peter and then suddenly she's wet and suddenly there's an A match being lit and she's

Caroline 56:02

yeah.

Anne 56:03

lit up. in that scene, I was so tense, like, oh, this is what she's going to do. She's gonna burn. And, and I guess what I like about that is this is both foreshadowing and a subversion of expectations. Because if you had asked me early on to predict how this would've ended, I would think she's setting her children on fire because she refers to nearly doing it.

Caroline 56:19

Yeah.

Anne 56:20

where this is going. She's had a dream, but then it's Steve who gets set on fire. So that was, that was so shocking.

Caroline 56:26

That was, I think my biggest shock

Anne 56:28

We've talked about the uncanny smile and reflection. We've talked about the piano wire, self decapitation, uh, ants in the bed. That that's pretty, pretty icky.

Caroline 56:36

I don't get what that was about.

Anne 56:38

either. I dunno. It was kind of leading her to Peter's room, but I don't know what the point of it was.

Caroline 56:43

Yeah.

Anne 56:43

There's a creepy scene where Annie grabs Peter in bed, I feel like beds should be safe places in her, like off limits for ghosts and GULs, but that scene didn't scare me as much when like, hands grab him from the back, even though it's, it would be horrifying.

Caroline 56:56

I don't, yeah, I don't have bars on my headboard currently, so, But I did have one of those trundle daybeds, so I would've in high school.

Anne 57:05

daughter when she was really little, I always had to fill the gap in between her bed and the wall. So we'd put stuffed

Caroline 57:10

Yeah.

Anne 57:11

along the edge.

Caroline 57:12

yeah, I have a bump bumper in there.

Anne 57:14

did you think of the, at the end, you know, Peter is Payman, he's wearing one of those crowns that come out of a popper it looked like.

Caroline 57:21

Mm-hmm.

Anne 57:22

and Both Sides Now Comes On, which I always think of Emma Thompson and Love actually, and it's such a strange

Caroline 57:28

Who doesn't?

Anne 57:29

did you think about the use of that song?

Caroline 57:31

I didn't even notice it. And that song belongs to Emma Thompson.

Anne 57:35

Yeah. Do we have any questions we haven't discussed?

Caroline 57:38

Unanswered questions. I'm confused why if you woke up in the night and you're looking for people, wouldn't you turn a light on?

Anne 57:45

I don't know. I don't turn the light on at night because I don't wanna wake anyone up.

Caroline 57:47

but you're dealing with small children, like he's a teenager looking for his parents, wouldn't you just like,

Anne 57:52

that's for the jump scare.

Caroline 57:53

yeah.

Anne 57:54

can

Caroline 57:54

Okay.

Anne 57:55

crawling around on the ceiling.

Caroline 57:56

Uh, so the other question I have, and this isn't a plot question as much as a, director choice question. So the, like jumps of day to night that happen only at the end, why does that happen?

Anne 58:09

I don't remember that happening.

Caroline 58:10

There's a couple of moments where like, you're looking at the house and it just becomes day like sudden, of them it doesn't.

Anne 58:17

turned on the light. Right. If they're in a dollhouse.

Caroline 58:20

Mm.

Anne 58:20

So it's sudden.

Caroline 58:21

Yes. Understand. Good. All right. That makes sense.

Anne 58:24

Yeah. I mean there's a lot of like.

Caroline 58:25

Mm-hmm.

Anne 58:25

What the fuck moments that are shocking and scary and it doesn't necessarily fit a logical narrative. why is Steve the one set on fire? Why is she banging your head on the attic door? Why do we need people to

Caroline 58:34

Yeah.

Anne 58:35

I guess we can't really answer these questions, but the impact of it is pure terror, pure horror, and it's very effective.

Caroline 58:42

Yeah. And I will say the article that I mentioned reading earlier, which I should cite, I'm gonna look, which is called and Who Wrote It. but, they mentioned that the idea was to illustrate a conspiracy from the perspective of the people who are victims of it.

Anne 58:57

lamb.

Caroline 58:57

yeah. As opposed to people who are in control of it. Which again, you said miniatures.

Anne 59:01

it's a happy ending.

Caroline 59:02

Mm-hmm.

Anne 59:03

Well, let's discuss some of the deeper horror beneath the surface. Hot glue, guns and dollhouse kits. Have you ever done one of those?

Caroline 59:11

No, I, I used a hot glue gun for the first time in my life on Saturday to glue a owl made out of pine cones,

Anne 59:19

Wait till you burn yourself with a hot glue

Caroline 59:21

I didn't.

Anne 59:21

pretty bad. I bought one of those, those little like crafty dollhouse it's like a little room you

Caroline 59:26

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Anne 59:27

to do with my daughter.

Caroline 59:28

Mm-hmm.

Anne 59:29

little craft we could do together. And after a half hour I wanted to set myself on fire. oh, literally

Caroline 59:33

Oh no. I got one of those for my niece for Christmas. I hope she likes.

Anne 59:37

hard. Um, was intensely frustrating and we gave up on it pretty quickly. I guess in terms of true horror, How fast something irreparable happen, you know? And this May movie makes me more

Caroline 59:49

Mm-hmm.

Anne 59:50

than cults or demons because is probably one of the, it's the most dangerous thing we do. Right?

Caroline 59:55

Yeah.

Anne 59:56

just how fast wrong turn or not hitting the brakes at the right time can change your life.

Caroline 1:00:00

Yeah.

Anne 1:00:01

grief is a major theme and one of the deeper horrors. He wanted to make a film about the corrosive effect of grief on a family unit. And I think it's also touching on the complexity of grief, like when someone who is difficult to love dies, that mix of relief and guilt and how we grieve and how we judge ourselves for how we grieve. you know, when Annie asks should I be sadder?

Caroline 1:00:22

Mm-hmm.

Anne 1:00:22

that was interesting thing to explore.

Caroline 1:00:25

Yeah. And relatable when someone dies after a long, slow, and painful

Anne 1:00:30

Absolutely.

Caroline 1:00:31

you know?

Anne 1:00:32

And then, you know, Annie just screaming, I want to die when Peter listens in the

Caroline 1:00:36

Mm.

Anne 1:00:37

horrible.

Caroline 1:00:38

I think to that end resentment and regret, resenting someone you should love,

Anne 1:00:44

care

Caroline 1:00:44

know?

Anne 1:00:45

Uh, postpartum regret, feeling trapped in motherhood, maternal rage, the feeling of being blamed, which I think we've all felt to a lesser extent than Annie in this, and we probably will get blamed for things in the future. I I'm not 2 billion, I am blamed is something a lot of mothers have felt

Caroline 1:01:01

For sure.

Anne 1:01:02

peanut allergies. I get really mad at people who bulk at not giving their kid a peanut butter and jelly sandwich because somebody in the school has a peanut allergy and I'm like, your kids', preferences are more important than another kid's life. Like, that's just bonkers to me.

Caroline 1:01:17

I agree. I understand that it's annoying to have an extra thing to think about when you have so much to think about. But when you think about the consequence of you not considering it, you gotta do what you gotta do to like, make sure a kid doesn't die.

Anne 1:01:32

Any other deeper horrors for you?

Caroline 1:01:33

No,

Anne 1:01:34

Okay. criticism.

Caroline 1:01:35

okay. So I kind of have a lot and I feel bad about having a lot. but there's a couple of things that people do in movies that dry peanut nuts that, uh, quite a few of those things occurred here, this happens in a lot of movies, but she's got a perfect set of pajamas. Like nobody fucking has that.

Anne 1:01:51

daughter

Caroline 1:01:52

Like

Anne 1:01:53

three perfect sets of pajamas. She spends all her

Caroline 1:01:56

daughter is a child by the time she's managing a household and thinking, you know, like you're putting on whatever. F you were gonna put on, I don't know. Um, the perfectly livable boxes. I also felt like it was weird when she rushes to her mom's stuff to open those boxes again. Again, as someone who even like discovered family secrets, going through my parents' things and all sorts of stuff like that, if I was going for those things desperately looking for something, I would not go from a printed book to an open chapter to one highlight passage to then a photo album to the immediate second answer to my que. There isn't a natural progression here, in some of these things. Um,

Anne 1:02:39

what she

Caroline 1:02:39

I think also.

Anne 1:02:40

or what she needed to find too easily.

Caroline 1:02:42

Right. I also feel like, the handwriting and the spelling of that dead 7-year-old supposedly, like, I feel like I would be suspicious of, like my 7-year-old doesn't write, let's, my 12-year-old doesn't write that clearly, let alone on a chalkboard or whatever. And like I said, the, doormat and that she introduces herself as Joan, but it's Joanie. Like, I keep thinking like, well, wouldn't a better disguise be like, your name is Elizabeth and your mother knew her as Lizzie, but she went by Beth. You know, like there isn't a huge difference between Joan and Joanie, Oh, I was at the movies like, come on. What movie were you seeing? How long was the movie? Did you crosscheck it with a showtime? Like sloppy,

Anne 1:03:22

Oh, like

Caroline 1:03:23

sloppy excuse?

Anne 1:03:24

to him to go to the grief meeting.

Caroline 1:03:26

come up with another excuse that doesn't require you to do so much homework.

Anne 1:03:30

Yeah. I think it's

Caroline 1:03:30

That is checkable.

Anne 1:03:31

to him about that too, it's showing this disconnect.

Caroline 1:03:34

I got that more because of, I think my Al-Anon experience like growing up and how it does feel, even as a person who's pretty, Messaging positive in these areas, you still have that little sense of like, embarrassment or whatever. And so I get not wanting to say that's where you are. And if I did do that, which I wouldn't feel the need, but in my current relationship. But if I had, I probably would come clean later, but I would come up with a lie that isn't so easily refutable

Anne 1:04:03

Like, I'm going for a I dunno.

Caroline 1:04:05

I, I gotta run an errand,

Anne 1:04:07

Okay. Well that's

Caroline 1:04:08

you know?

Anne 1:04:09

you buy? How was the parking

Caroline 1:04:10

Uh, I went to the bookstore for this book, but it wasn't there,

Anne 1:04:13

Fair.

Caroline 1:04:14

or I, I went to get hair stuff, they didn't have any. Then I tried to fill up my gap, you know, I went to see a movie I feel like is a very, you just call up movie phone. Why don't you just tell me the name of the movie you.

Anne 1:04:25

think if, um, somebody went to a movie, I would be like, well, how was it?

Caroline 1:04:30

Right. What movie? Maybe I wanna see it, you know, like is it the New Spider-Man? Whatever. Yeah. yeah. So I had, I had a bunch of those.

Anne 1:04:40

to get to the plot points we

Caroline 1:04:42

Yeah. for how much time was taken up by not explaining things. There was a lot of like quick, desperate explaining

Anne 1:04:48

that makes sense. One criticism that I've read about is the harmful trope of pairing mental illness with possession and evil.

Caroline 1:04:56

Hmm.

Anne 1:04:57

I don't know if it so much does it here, because, I do think they're making it clear this actually wasn't mental illness. This was possession.

Caroline 1:05:03

Right.

Anne 1:05:03

you know, I think throughout a lot of horror history, this has been a trope, that A lot of movies fall back on and, Ari asked her, for example, in Midsummer, And I don't know, I think it's Mid Somar in Ari, Esther's other movie, Midsummer Mid Somar, the inciting incident in that movie.

Caroline 1:05:19

I thought it was mid

Anne 1:05:21

uh, there's multiple ways we could pronounce it. when we cover it, we'll

Caroline 1:05:23

right listeners at us. Which way do you say it?

Anne 1:05:26

Well, the inciting incident in this movie is the murder of the main character's parents by her sister, who has it is stated, has bipolar. So people are asking, well, was it really necessary to give that character that mental illness? Is that perpetuating a harmful trope?

Caroline 1:05:39

Mm.

Anne 1:05:39

I listened to a podcast called the Bechdel Podcast and they had a really interesting discussion about ableism and the way that Charlie is possessed by demon, but she comes off as neurodivergent. And again, is there an equating or conflating of neurodivergence with So I just think that's something worth thinking about

Caroline 1:05:57

thought.

Anne 1:05:57

think we touched on this in our vanishing at the Cecil episode, in the way that Elisa Lamb's mental illness was interpreted by so many as something paranormal

Caroline 1:06:07

Mm-hmm.

Anne 1:06:07

is that damaging? And I think throughout history, like a lot of people who were actually experiencing mental illness were viewed as possessed and it

Caroline 1:06:15

Right.

Anne 1:06:16

like exorcisms have been performed on people who actually had schizophrenia. And in this case it's

Caroline 1:06:21

Mm-hmm.

Anne 1:06:22

There is possession being misinterpreted as a mental illness. So I think it's just something to be aware of and to think about,

Caroline 1:06:29

I thought of an unanswered question. Do you think Volvo paid to be in this movie?

Anne 1:06:36

are there many Volvos

Caroline 1:06:37

both have Volvos both parents? What a weird.

Anne 1:06:40

be associated with? A horrific

Caroline 1:06:42

Do you and So Marketing deal also don't like that.

Anne 1:06:46

Well maybe that could be confirmed.

Caroline 1:06:47

Yeah.

Anne 1:06:49

Stop. Drop and roll.

Caroline 1:06:50

Mm-hmm.

Anne 1:06:51

don't read something out loud in an ancient unfamiliar language. If you don't know what it means, you might awaken a mummy an invitation to possess.

Caroline 1:06:58

Mm-hmm. Use Legos. If you break your Lego, you can easily fix your Lego. It's not a permanent, like if you lose your temper and you don't wanna look at it anymore, you can just go ahead and make it again. You don't have to go out and buy all new materials at Michael's or wherever.

Anne 1:07:12

objecting to her, destroying her. I found that scene very hard to watch. I was like, no, no, no. You've worked so hard on this.

Caroline 1:07:18

Uh, oh my God. I did too. It was very upsetting. but also when she breaks the chair, she spills the paint. You mentioned hot glue gun disasters. Speaking as a person who has no artistic skills whatsoever and appreciates a good, step, step-by-step visual instruction with foolproof clicking

Anne 1:07:36

These dollhouse things are not

Caroline 1:07:37

option.

Anne 1:07:38

It's like holding something that's so tiny that your fingers can't handle it together while the hot glue burns.

Caroline 1:07:43

no, no. Yeah. No, this is not a thing for me. Legos are more my speed.

Anne 1:07:48

your EpiPen on you. they make a point of showing that this family's lax about the EpiPen, know, given that she has.

Caroline 1:07:53

Mm-hmm.

Anne 1:07:54

A fatal allergy. and get trained in how to administer one watch a YouTube video.'cause it's not hard. I do the training every year. I hope to God I never have to use it, but it's good to know what to do if, if you witness someone going into anaphylactic shock.

Caroline 1:08:06

That is such a good point. I have a friend who had a family member pass, from an overdose, and I have Narcan in my car So if that's an issue where you live, that's another thing I would recommend.

Anne 1:08:17

Well, do you have a palate cleanser for us?

Caroline 1:08:19

You know, I do. I have made this show my entire personality in the last 48 hours, but if you have not watched heated rivalry, please

Anne 1:08:29

has texted me that I need to watch heated rivalry like five times?

Caroline 1:08:33

five times. The person who recommended to me. Hi Kara, my former coworker. I, I can't even express to her how grateful I am. After you watch heated rivalry, I suggest you go on TikTok and just watch clips of people watching it. I mean, it has restored my faith in humanity,

Anne 1:08:49

something

Caroline 1:08:50

honestly.

Anne 1:08:51

now.

Caroline 1:08:51

so needed. It is really the time for heated rivalry. Please do yourself a favor. If you don't have HBO, send us a message. I'll give you my login in,

Anne 1:09:01

Okay. I'll watch it, I promise. And what is our homework?

Caroline 1:09:04

in the vein of family curses, we are going to be watching Captive Audience, a Real American Horror Story, and it's about the Stainer family.

Anne 1:09:14

so we're gonna be doing that in a few weeks, but in between our special edition, I just got back from a Disney cruise, so in honor of that experience, we're going to cover. train wreck, poop cruise next. So

Caroline 1:09:26

yeah. That's gonna be our like watercolor water cooler. Special.

Anne 1:09:31

that anyone's talking about

Caroline 1:09:32

Yeah.

Anne 1:09:32

us, but I think people were talking about that like

Caroline 1:09:34

It's the season for cruises. but it, it's vacation here in the us you know,

Anne 1:09:39

it happened in February, so probably actually by the time we release it, it might be around that time

Caroline 1:09:45

an anniversary. Yeah, we should look it up.

Anne 1:09:47

Maybe we'll make an effort to release it on the date. so poop cruise captive audience. And after that we will be reading Mexican Gothic by Sylvia Marino. Garcia, do you have any recommendations?

Caroline 1:09:58

Okay. I have lots. In the vein of like a slow burn to an intense ending relief, as well as tongue clicking, I would like to recommend SJ Mass and the AAR series. Um, so that

Anne 1:10:13

Yeah, I think you mentioned that.

Caroline 1:10:15

both of her actually also Throne of Glass. I haven't read the other one. Crescent City, I think it is. I've read all of aar. I've read the first couple books of Throne of Glass. I don't love it as much as everyone else does. I'm sorry. But, there is so much tongue clicking. People click their tongue constantly in her books. But anyway, I.

Anne 1:10:33

a lot of growling,

Caroline 1:10:34

Yes, less so in Throne of Glass'cause there's less like wolfy people. But anyway, also, the element of like a bunch of stuff at the end that might have been explained better if I ever read a book or something The Shining I wanted to recommend. cause it felt very much like at the end of the Shining window, I'm like, what are these animals going down on each other about? there's a lot of,

Anne 1:10:55

Right. Okay, to prioritize that soon. It's so good.

Caroline 1:10:58

I started to read it, but I didn't finish it. Days views I already mentioned with the face off your face, uh, face off your head or whatever. Search Party is also a great series. It's got maybe from Arrested Development really, really good. There's a lot of like culty stuff happening there and a lot of similar vibes And then I also kept thinking of, when I was trying to understand why Paman, cause I guess that's another unanswered question, like why Paman as opposed to these other gods. I just kept picturing in Ragnar Rock when she's like, what are you the god of again? You know, so wanted to, I know I've mentioned that movie a bunch of times, but it's one of my favorite.

Anne 1:11:38

great.

Caroline 1:11:38

Yeah, when is it not? And then I never actually watched the show, but my husband really loved United States of Tara, which I feel like would be very relevant in terms of Tony Collette. Yeah, it's Tony Collette and she's got multiple personality disorders, so she's plays like a bunch of different personalities, so very relevant.

Anne 1:11:56

Well my recommendations other Ari Astor movies, I haven't seen, Bo Is Afraid or Eddington, but I really liked Midsummer, which also explores grief and cults. Um, in terms of like seances and demonic possessions, there's the Conjuring host, the others lots of great horror movies with similar scenes and themes, in terms of grief and what one would do to get. child back, bring her back. I'm not going to it here because it's too much. It's very confronting and it's exploration of grief and child death. But, you know, similar themes, if you wanna check that out, along those same lines, pet cemetery is, maybe the roughest exploration of grief over a dead child and what people are willing to do to subvert death. Even Stephen King, thought he'd gone too far and had regrets about it. But it is a great book. the Babadook is also about a mother grieving and dealing with a difficult child, um,

Caroline 1:12:47

Isn't that one of the other devils, by the way? One of the other kings of hell I think is Babadook or something.

Anne 1:12:53

seen

Caroline 1:12:53

Yeah. No, no, no. Like when I was trying to look up the other names of Kings of Hell, I think Babadook was on there.

Anne 1:12:58

Okay. Well that's something I do wanna cover at some point. I recently finished a book, by Kla MacCloud called Ghost Eaters, which is about again, how far people are willing to go to reconnect with a lost loved one, Verity for dangerous sleepwalking, haunting of Hill House for another family drama with horror on top. Like most Mike Flanagan TV dramas, it's got that deeper underlying human story. Matilda for ghosts or entities writing on chalkboards, smile because of the way Peter's reflections, smiles at him in class. Very scary movie and skeleton key and Stranger Things season four for attic rituals. Oh, and then, you know, also just go back and watch the sixth Sense and listen to our episode 12, for another Tony Collette dealing with. Paranormal activity as a mom.

Caroline 1:13:43

I think during our conversation we also mentioned Toy Story too

Anne 1:13:46

Are we And Toy Story

Caroline 1:13:47

uh, sleepwalk with me. Yeah. And the Mike Burt, big Leah Sleepwalk with me

Anne 1:13:51

And, unobscured, the Aaron Menke podcast season two about spiritualism and lore.

Caroline 1:13:56

and Lo Yeah.

Anne 1:13:57

So many things. We like things, I'm

Caroline 1:14:00

So we like things you do, we love things.

Anne 1:14:02

thank you for listening. Please do all the things podcasters ask you to do, like and subscribe. Follow us on Instagram, Facebook, or threads. Write a review on iTunes. You can email us at Drawn to Darkness pod@gmail.com. And most importantly, please tell a like-minded friend who's also drawn to darkness. if like Shirley Jackson, you delight in what you fear. Join us in two weeks here at Drawn To Darkness Special shout out to Nancy Ano who painted our cover art. You can find her on Instagram at Nancy ano and to Harry Kidd for our intro and outro music. You can find him on Instagram at Harry J. Kidd and on Spotify.