27 - Captive Audience: A Real American Horror Story

In this episode of Drawn to Darkness, we pivot back to true crime with Captive Audience: A Real American Horror Story, a three-part docuseries about the kidnapping of Steven Stayner and the traumatic ripple effect. We’ll discuss Steven’s story, how he was abducted at age seven while walking home from school and held captive for seven years by Kenneth Parnell. What makes the story even more unsettling is how “normal” his life appeared from the outside. Steven attended school, played sport, and yet could not free himself from his abuser until Parnell kidnapped five-year-old Timmy White. Refusing to let another boy endure what he survived. Steven heroically escaped, saving Timmy and himself. We discuss the psychological barriers that kept him from escaping sooner, the media’s obsession with a “happy ending” and its impact on Steven’s recovery, and the tragic fatal motorcycle accident that ended Steven’s life. Just when you think the story must be over, the Stayner curse delivers one more twist: Steven’s older brother Cary becomes the Yosemite Killer, turning this into a story not only about captivity, but about generational trauma and murder.

Content & Spoiler Warning: 

This episode includes discussion of child abduction, pedophilia and child sexual assault, intergenerational trauma, serial murder, and a fatal motorcycle accident. We also spoil Captive Audience and the made-for-TV miniseries I Know My First Name Is Steven.

Palate Cleanser:

After something this bleak, we recommend something more fun: Derry Girls, Caroline’s comfort-watch of choice, Heated Rivalry, and The Mummy, because Evie and Rick are adorable. 

Recommendations:

Adolescence - mandatory viewing if you’re raising a boy

Wild Crime -another national park–focused docuseries

Park Predators -for more on crime in wilderness spaces

Murdoch Murders: A Southern Scandal  - another cursed-family true crime saga

Six Schizophrenic Brothers - a different kind of family horror

Bloodline and The Perfect Couple - fictional family darkness

My Favorite Murder Episode 30 - their early coverage of this case

Media Pressure (Julie Murray’s podcast) -on family tragedy and public obsession

I Know My First Name Is Steven — the original 1989 miniseries that shaped the family’s story

Untamed with Eric Bana for a Yosemite murder mystery. Also Free Solo and The Dawn Wall for that stunning Yosemite setting.

Stephen King’s The Dead Zone because Parnell is giving Greg Stillson as a Bible salesman.

The 1990s The Stand mini-series, with Corin Nemec as Harold

All Around The Town by Mary Higgins Clark 

Weapons because of a scary gas station scene and a child keeping a secret at school

California True Crime, Timesuck, Casefile, and Last Podcast on the Left if you want to know more about these crimes.

Homework:

Next episode, we continue our run of cursed families, but through gothic fiction rather than documentary. Read Mexican Gothic by Silvia Moreno-Garcia

Special thanks to Nancy Azano for the podcast cover art (Instagram: @nancyazano) and Harry Kidd for the opening and closing score (Instagram: @harryjkidd, Spotify). 

Transcript

Anne 0:10

welcome back to Drawn To Darkness a sometimes weekly sometimes biweekly podcast where we discuss our favorite horror and true crime If you're worried about going missing in a national park we're here for you My name is Annie and I'll be introducing Caroline to my favorite horror movies podcasts TV shows and books

Caroline 0:24

And my name is Caroline and I'll be doing the same from the true crime side of things.

Anne 0:28

So what's your favorite made for TV movie Maybe something from the eighties or nineties from our glory days

Caroline 0:35

Burning bed for sure.

Anne 0:36

So what's up

Caroline 0:37

I think it's Farrah Faucet who's in it. She's an abused wife and she, burns the house down with her husband in it.

Anne 0:44

Ooh

Caroline 0:44

Yeah. I didn't see it until way later, but, Uh, before that it was the face on the milk carton, which was also a book.

Anne 0:50

I feel like I read the book

Caroline 0:52

Yeah.

Anne 0:52

don't know if I saw the movie I was very aware of the face of the milk carton and I was scared of it but I don't know that I ever actually saw it

Caroline 0:58

Mm.

Anne 0:59

So when you suggested this question I was like I don't know I can't think of any made for TV movies about true crime That I watched my parents were like super strict about TV when I was little Like I remember having to to be allowed to watch full House So I I think they just didn't know what it was It's

Caroline 1:15

Yeah.

Anne 1:16

obviously But but what came to my mind was something I obviously watched a little bit later but Stephen King's the Stand mini series which I Did you see that

Caroline 1:25

No.

Anne 1:26

that's so good it's with Molly Ringwald and Lieutenant Dan What's his name in real life

Caroline 1:31

Gary Sinise,

Anne 1:32

Yes

Caroline 1:33

my friend Taryn loves him.

Anne 1:35

he was one of my first crushes because of Stu Redmond

Caroline 1:38

Oh, really?

Anne 1:39

him and Robinhood um the Fox

Caroline 1:41

Yeah. Have we talked about that on here yet? I don't know.

Anne 1:44

know I mean we talk about it all the time in real life

Caroline 1:47

Our friends are sick of it.

Anne 1:48

Yeah And you know it's funny that the stand came to mind because there's a connection to our focus today which is the documentary captive audience a real American horror story about the kidnapping of Steven Stainer and the connection to the stand is that in the made for TV movie that

Caroline 2:03

Mm-hmm.

Anne 2:04

you to choose this is also in the stand

Caroline 2:07

Oh,

Anne 2:08

And I recognized him Yes And I recognized I was like he reminds me of Harold from the Stand And then I was so happy when I looked up on IMBV to find out I was right cause is there like a better In the world than finding out that the actor you recognized is the person you thought it was

Caroline 2:21

That is the best.

Anne 2:22

before we get too far into captive audience spoiler and content warning there will be discussion of pedophilia kidnapping sexual assault serial murder trauma a motorcycle fatality As usual We'll also be spoiling the docuseries and by extension the 1989 TV mini series I know my first name is Steven which is really intertwined with this documentary give you a second to pause If you wanna go watch either of these things before listening Here we go Caroline can you tell us what this is about

Caroline 2:50

captive audience. A real American Horror story is a three episode True Crime documentary or docuseries that tells the story of Steven Stanner, who was kidnapped at age seven while walking home from school and held for seven years by Kenneth Parnell, who renamed him Dennis, and convinced him that his family didn't want him anymore. While in captivity, Steven was abused, but also allowed to attend school and live what looked like from the outside, a strangely normal life, which makes the whole thing even more unsettling. He ultimately escapes when Parnell kidnaps a second child, 5-year-old, Timmy White and Steven refuses to let another kid suffer what he did. The families reunite and Steven is heralded as a hero. They even make the two parts made for TV movie that we mentioned starring Emmic. I know my first name is Steven. That part feels like a miracle, and for a moment you think maybe the story is finally going to let you breathe and it does not. The series looks at the media attention, the legal failures around Parnell's persecution. Prosecution. I keep mixing up that word and the long-term ripple effects on Steven's family. And just when you're sure the story has hit its emotional ceiling, there's one more devastating turn involving Steven's older brother that feels almost unreal. It turns out he has become a serial killer.

Anne 4:02

Wow a story

Caroline 4:04

Hmm.

Anne 4:05

to describe this

Caroline 4:06

heartbreaking.

Anne 4:07

For me it was unfair

Caroline 4:08

Yeah.

Anne 4:08

so much was stolen from him both by evil and by chance you know his childhood and in addition to the foul things that were done to him just that time away from his family like those experiences those Christmases they could have had together And then this motorcycle accident like it's so

Caroline 4:25

Which I skipped over in my, in my summary. Sorry. He also tragically dies when he gets hit accidentally riding his motorcycle.

Anne 4:32

At 24

Caroline 4:32

As a father of two

Anne 4:34

and

Caroline 4:34

and

Anne 4:35

a good father

Caroline 4:37

And good person.

Anne 4:39

Yeah I mean what a tragedy to like get his life back for his family to get him back for him to overcome and then to die at 24 It is heartbreaking So tell me about your journey with this I I'm assuming you watched this as a kid

Caroline 4:50

yes, I saw the Made for TV movie. I don't think I watched both parts, but you know what, it just would've been whatever was on like Channel 11 when I was home from school.

Anne 5:00

stream back then So if you missed it you

Caroline 5:01

Right. Yeah. And then I also really remembered the My Favorite Murder episode where they covered it.

Anne 5:08

remember knowing about this I remember being aware of the face on the milk carton and being very afraid of child abduction in the eighties but I did watch the movie I found it on somebody's Facebook video I was looking

Caroline 5:19

Yeah.

Anne 5:20

valid legal places

Caroline 5:22

I wanted originally to watch that. And again, this was inspired by hereditary, so we're thinking about, you know, cursed families, et cetera. And so I was thinking about like what family had the most crazy cursed seeming thing. And I'm so done with Kennedy's, I don't wanna give them any attention. So like, I don't wanna cover that. this was the other family I thought of and I really wanted to watch that, but I didn't know where to find it. And then you found it.

Anne 5:44

Yeah I found it like just a couple days ago and I've managed to watch I don't know two hours and 40 minutes of it I was up at four 30 this morning trying to finish it and I couldn't quite get to the end But I found it powerful for an eighties made for TV movie you know the moment that he admits to the police that Parnell took him and how hard that is for him It was really such a gut punch and a gut punch mixed with relief that his parents actually wanted him But then like all

Caroline 6:09

Mm-hmm.

Anne 6:09

lost time I feel like the actor did a really good job with that And then the reunion scenes they made me cry I was

Caroline 6:15

Totally.

Anne 6:16

this morning drinking my coffee

Caroline 6:17

Aw,

Anne 6:18

the awkwardness between him and his mom as they try to reconnect and I feel like the movie's pretty sensitive in that last hour or so that it doesn't end with like oh he's back This is wrapped up Goodbye it shows what it was like to readjust and have to go to school and to deal with that aftermath

Caroline 6:34

the docuseries does do a lot of throughout acknowledging and reinforcing the influence of the Made for TV movie on the family and the involvement of Steven in the making of it. In general, when I think about media created off of a person's tragedy, I would always prefer that the person is involved,

Anne 6:55

okay

Caroline 6:56

and okay with it and approves of the way it's been messaged, et cetera. exactly. and unlike the act, versus, uh, mommy dead and dearest, what's interesting that this highlights is that just because Steven was involved doesn't mean it didn't impact the whole rest of the family. Like his dad did not appreciate it, and they also went through trauma.

Anne 7:17

His the way they played up the destitution and certainly in the first hour there's a lot of like we

Caroline 7:23

Mm-hmm.

Anne 7:25

make a bit of a big deal about that and yeah Carrie didn't like it either which I think we should get into

Caroline 7:30

Well, fuck that guy.

Anne 7:32

in terms of the documentary itself I was kind of like Where's this going at the end of episode one like he's back how are they gonna you know is this gonna be like the worst of a true crime docuseries just the story for extra episodes we see the motorcycle accident and then at the end of episode two I was like well what now And then it's like what carries the Yosemite killer Like what a twist

Caroline 7:54

I know.

Anne 7:54

well on last week's episode which was train wreck poop cruise you said that that event combined your two greatest fears which were the ocean

Caroline 8:02

Mm-hmm.

Anne 8:03

this kind of combines two of my greatest fears which is something happening to me in nature while I'm out camping something happening to one of my kids I found this the Yosemite killer aspect of this Very frightening And yeah just the idea that a kid could be taken walking home from school It's horrifying so True crime documentaries often focus on the victim the perpetrator the crime this I think focuses and forces us to reckon with the collateral damage on the family more rather than those gritty details of the crimes themselves Like it doesn't talk too too much about what Carrie Stainer did so it's almost more about that and the sensationalism of the media surrounding this which is I think explored to good effect through old newspaper clippings and like that old footage And then combining the

Caroline 8:44

Mm-hmm.

Anne 8:45

All those newspaper clippings felt kind of informal and intimate like having them looking you know with family members in this sort of scrapbook style sort of way

Caroline 8:53

I made a note how the box of Steven's stuff is much more appropriate than the hereditary.

Anne 9:01

yeah like hereditary We had a box of

Caroline 9:04

Yeah. But it was like a like Tupperware. It wasn't like a neat you know, which is all my stuff is in Tupperware, too ugly Tupperware.

Anne 9:11

Yeah in some ways this is a lot more stereotypical than the Eileen Winos serial killer documentary that we covered a few weeks ago as well You know there's the interviews the footage that's actually about the people involved and the splicing in of contemporary media but it's different in the way that they are Intertwining the TV movie So I think that's what makes it stand out And the and the interviews with the actors I

Caroline 9:31

Yeah.

Anne 9:32

I don't think I've

Caroline 9:33

In particular, I was gonna ask you how you felt about it because I kept going back and forth on my opinion of the actors. I still don't know where I've landed on Corin Nemic, but I really liked the actor that played Carrie. as he's reading those lines, they're from a recording and they start playing Carrie's voice and he's like doing the intonation perfectly.

Anne 9:58

I liked it

Caroline 9:59

Yeah,

Anne 9:59

at first I didn't at is cheesy and

Caroline 10:02

Especially because she's like, don't feel the need to act it out, but it's like, of course they're gonna do that. be weird not to, you know.

Anne 10:09

I a criticism of this somewhere where it was like imagine if Robert Downey Jr Was asked to reenact I don't know audio of the person he was playing in Zodiac in a Zodiac documentary down the track And that would be weird but I think because Robert Johnny Jr's so famous was these guys they're not so famous anymore So I think they're people who kind of had their heyday then and are reflecting what they

Caroline 10:34

Totally. I don't think Robert Duney Jr would have the time for that. He's busy being Iron Man and Dr. Doom. And again, I think I ultimately landed on like, there's so much of the family here, especially the mom. and I felt like, well if, there're comfortable with this, I should be comfortable with this.

Anne 10:50

it reflects the sensationalism of the media that this is exploring and I'm not criticizing these actors they were just child actors but this documentary as we said is not just about this abduction it's about the coverage the hounding And they were a part of that and for them being in this movie must have been like a dream come true and been getting all this attention and getting interviewed and this other person's tragedy is their lottery ticket but it's all due to someone else's suffering So and I think you could see that in their faces as they were the transcript of these audio clips from the real people that they were playing So I think it worked

Caroline 11:22

Yeah, we had an earlier conversation about. the extent that actors go through, getting a script and reading lines. You have to really understand the character's backstory and the person, and I think having Steven on set obviously would've been easy for Corin. I don't know about the guy who played Carrie, whose name I didn't look up. Sorry.

Anne 11:39

and it's also interesting how Steven's daughter thinks of Korin as her dad right Like how or how deep that association is for her when you when she's

Caroline 11:48

Mm-hmm.

Anne 11:49

this is and that's that's pretty heavy for Corin I think to know about

Caroline 11:54

Yeah.

Anne 11:54

so I looked up He's been a in a bunch of crime made for TV movies like he's played Tent Bundy played Richard Spec he was in an episode of 9 0

Caroline 12:04

I,

Anne 12:04

Uh you might

Caroline 12:05

I do know, in fact, I have another simulation theory that happened. So I think I've mentioned on this podcast before that I listened to a podcast called, again with this, where they cover episodes of Dawson's Creek currently. They also, years ago, covered episode by episode of 9 0 2 1 oh, and now they listen to the terrible, terrible, terrible podcast that nobody should listen to, that Jenny Garth and Tory spelling have 9 0 2 1 oh mg and I pay to listen to them cover that podcast so I don't have to listen to that podcast. Anyway, while we were watching this, the episode of the week was about Kronick's appearance on nine or two,

Anne 12:40

That is so weird

Caroline 12:41

right.

Anne 12:41

right. We're in a simulation That's it as I said Corin also played Harold Lauder from the Stand and also Simulation theory I'm gonna say spoiler alert for the stands coming up both the book And the movie or the mini series okay Giving a second You can pause now if you don't wanna know It's like a 50-year-old book But Harold Lauder the character played by Cormick dies in a motorcycle accident No will not

Caroline 13:05

Wow.

Anne 13:05

Yeah

Caroline 13:06

that is crazy.

Anne 13:07

I think the stand mini series came out in the nineties

Caroline 13:10

Oh, they could have,

Anne 13:10

I think it would've

Caroline 13:11

mm-hmm.

Anne 13:12

But I mean the book came out in the

Caroline 13:14

Yeah. Yeah. True.

Anne 13:16

Okay spoiler over But the grandpa in the Made for TV movie is Glenn Bateman from the Stand young Steve is the little brother from

Caroline 13:25

Yes, I recognized him.

Anne 13:27

Brian Cranston plays a police

Caroline 13:28

He does. God. He was in everything.

Anne 13:31

I was watching and I was like where is he Is he I I didn't see him so I have to go and actually see which police officer he played I think he's just one of the guys like kind of bringing him

Caroline 13:38

Steven a police officer too? In it? Steven himself was Was a police. Yeah. Yeah.

Anne 13:45

Uh and Raymond Cruz who plays TCO Manka from Breaking Bad is one of the mean punks who harasses little Steven when he tries to make his

Caroline 13:53

Oh, the girlfriend. Yeah. from Honey. I shrunk the kids. Yeah.

Anne 13:58

because I wanted to like be her when I saw Honey I Shrunk the Kids She was so

Caroline 14:02

too.

Anne 14:03

Yeah obviously Parker Lewis can't lose but I have no nostalgia for that I never saw it

Caroline 14:06

Me neither. I only heard of it.

Anne 14:08

well as you said at at least Steven was okay with this but the mom keg was pretty blunt She said she was not impressed and Carrie said it was a tainted picture of reality the director JP Miller I think just in terms of showing a little bit of respect to this movie and real people it impacted had all this audio it sounds like he really did his due diligence in terms of getting views and their opinions and their feelings would every TV movie

Caroline 14:34

No, I know is interesting to hear the recording of the conversations,

Anne 14:38

Given what Carrie ended up becoming It was a I guess information

Caroline 14:44

it's, it definitely seemed like they were perceptive of Carrie's bitterness. I.

Anne 14:48

Another thing that's interesting in this is the emphasis on endings it opens with like happy ending miracle ending fairytale ending that kind of language and all these reporters talking about that then in reality it's so hard to give this an ending because of the way he dies Like you talk about in our Frankenstein episode how nice it is that

Caroline 15:06

Mm.

Anne 15:07

often

Caroline 15:07

Mm-hmm.

Anne 15:08

nicely it just sort of ends with well

Caroline 15:10

Right.

Anne 15:11

a bit of a bummer well let's talk about the setting or least seventies into the eighties So when was he kidnapped 72 was it Yeah you feel that with the bowl cuts the color scheme the brown carpets the old photo albums I think we had the exact same backyard pool that they show at one point what is more important in the setting than these petty details I'm pointing out about the aesthetics is the lack of paperwork for example which would make Parnell passing off Steven as his son I think

Caroline 15:39

Mm-hmm.

Anne 15:40

I can't remember where I learned this I don't think it was the documentary but when he went missing his photo was sent to every school district but the district then said didn't pass on the info to the school where Kenneth enrolled him And the school obviously didn't ask for a birth certificate I'm involved in enrollments at my school and there's a ton of paperwork it would be pretty hard to pass off someone who wasn't your kid your kid And in the movie they show him enrolling him in a school and then quickly enrolling him in a different school and then just having the transfer paperwork So it was kind of like you know how you get that first job everything you did before your high school GPA your your SAT scores like suddenly none of that matters because you've had that first job and that's

Caroline 16:16

Right?

Anne 16:17

because he one school it seems like okay well then we just transfer to the next And all they ask for is that previous school's paperwork that was upsetting to me that they didn't check And the other reason I find the seventies eighties setting important is because of the inadequate laws lack of for sexual abuse of limitations being way too short you know on the one hand we know better now we know that sexual assaults victims might come forward decades later on the other hand many powerful people are still able to manipulate the system to get away with those same crimes that are more universally condemned

Caroline 16:51

also with things like sexual assault, that's a compulsion. It's not gonna go away. that's the kind of violation you don't accidentally do.

Anne 17:00

that god damn exact

Caroline 17:03

Really?

Anne 17:05

I wrote down raping a child is

Caroline 17:07

Right. Seriously,

Anne 17:09

it's not pressured into like robbing a

Caroline 17:12

what were you

Anne 17:12

you know it's an inclination and I think once is enough to throw away the key because they're dangerous and it's not even about punishment it's about a danger to society It's not about vengeance It's removing like jc uh dig guard's kidnapper also had prior

Caroline 17:25

Right,

Anne 17:27

out I think I

Caroline 17:28

Yeah.

Anne 17:28

banged on my microphone

Caroline 17:30

deserving of banging,

Anne 17:31

I I am part Italian so Caroline can see me gesturing no one else can but just hit my microphone yeah And then you know the importance of stopping this because as we've discussed if you are abused as a child it doesn't mean you'll go on to abuse others But Often when you find someone who is an abuser they have

Caroline 17:46

right?

Anne 17:47

So trauma before it happens and causes more harm down

Caroline 17:50

Mm-hmm.

Anne 17:51

And Steven before his at 24 definitely testified in favor of increasing penalties which I'm 1000 on board with

Caroline 17:59

there's all other conversations about, better understanding now than even the nineties when you think about the Menendez brothers and all of the efforts to try to give them a new future or sentence, I guess. but yeah. The other thing that comes up every time there's cases like this, or also in battered women cases, or battered domestic partner, the director was talking about how to try to illustrate why he didn't just like leave if he had the freedom to go to school and really the importance of understanding the psychological manipulation that these people fall under, it doesn't mean they were like, fine with it,

Anne 18:33

No And people thought he he

Caroline 18:35

Yeah.

Anne 18:36

I found that really sad the idea that he any or control in this situation

Caroline 18:41

Can't believe like kids teased him oh god.

Anne 18:45

why did he stay I think he was afraid I think Parnell manipulated and arguably brainwashed him we know he wasn't entirely brainwashed because he knew he was in a bad situation right he knew he was in a situation that was bad enough that he didn't want Timmy to go through it And he took action So I think somebody like Parnell would be using this back and forth like threat of punishment followed by indulgence like the buying him toys letting him smoke and drink combined with scaring him I think that ties into Gypsy Rose Blanchard who also didn't feel like she had a way out and her mother So when we criticize her I feel like it's unfair because growing up in such an abusive situation from such a young age really warps your rationality It's so easy to say just leave but it's harder to know what you would do if you were in the same boat kidnapped and sexually abused since seven

Caroline 19:33

when you're being emotionally manipulated, like if that's the only adult you have and you're a child, what are you gonna do? they even talked about how there was one time when he did escape and he got away, but he had no idea where he was. He didn't know how to get anywhere, so he came back, he's a little kid.

Anne 19:48

I know And I think attachment comes into this he was removed from his parents so all he had

Caroline 19:54

Mm-hmm.

Anne 19:54

He was the only He did feed him He was at times normal to him there's plenty of people who are abused by their parents and still love them and then also I think shame came into it there was a quote was like what the two of you had done is very blamey wording as if Steven had any say So I think probably part of the reason was he felt that he was complicit even if he wasn't So there's that shame which connects to our spotlight episode and why people don't

Caroline 20:18

Mm-hmm.

Anne 20:19

for many

Caroline 20:20

Mm-hmm.

Anne 20:21

I listened to a you're Wrong About Stockholm syndrome in connection to this which went into like Patty Hearst and brainwashing and how people can be broken down and controlled to not turn in their kidnappers you know I know you don't believe Amy Bradley was actually trafficked but if she was why has she not found a way to escape It would tie the same kind of reasons I also read about a story Natasha Kapo sure if I'm pronouncing that She was abducted in Austria at age 10 She was kept in a cellar She spent eight years there She was allowed upstairs She was in the gardens He took her on trips into town They were even stopped by the police And though she tried to make eye contact she couldn't Get herself to say anything And then she escaped one day because she was vacuuming and he got a phone call and kind of walked away and got distracted and she bolted

Caroline 21:07

I mean, Elizabeth Smart too. There's a new documentary that just came out about her that I just watched, and there were opportunities for her as well, but she was just terrified, Mm-hmm.

Anne 21:16

book room goes into that a lot Did you ever read that it's hard It's a it's a hard book to read It was very emotionally But if you make these attempts and you fail you're fucked And I also think it's about self-preservation you connect to survive by connecting you start to feel attached to okay Literary reference I just read 1984 because you know the world Winston is horrifically tortured in this by O'Brien who has all the power So he's kind of like Winston's God So when he's kind and he's the protector when the he makes the torture stop Winston's so grateful to him He loves him and he's constantly trying to read him to read his mood so he can say or do the right things to make the torture stop there's this trauma bonding terror bonding thing going on that I think affects Steven's ability to just

Caroline 22:00

Mm-hmm.

Anne 22:01

I gotta say Parnell must have been quite brazen to let Steven into the world to be like I have done such a good job either Either he is stupid or he is brazen Like done such a good job manipulating this kid that I know he's not gonna say anything And then leaving him with Timmy

Caroline 22:14

I think two attitudes towards sodomy, ho homosexuality, et cetera. he'd be embarrassed to share, aside from just sexual assault when you're a minor. the attitudes about the fact that he was a boy, you know, assaulted by a man, I think there would've been an extra layer of that. Not that there wouldn't be that today, especially in certain states, but, I think it would've been quite pronounced then.

Anne 22:38

So

Caroline 22:38

Yeah.

Anne 22:39

I bet had he not helped Timmy escape Parnell would've made him abuse Timmy

Caroline 22:44

I bet you're right.

Anne 22:45

And then he would've just been more intertwined and tied up and complicit and less able

Caroline 22:50

Mm-hmm.

Anne 22:50

I mean it's just so sad Seven years old you know it's sickening The reenactment of Steven getting into the car from the movie like made me feel nauseous Oh and tying into my theory that he would've gotten Steven complicit in the abuse of Timmy was Barbara Mathias Mathias Parnell's

Caroline 23:08

yeah.

Anne 23:09

him which they show very briefly in the movie I don't know where I heard this I listened to other podcasts surrounding this time suck Did a deep dive on both There was one called Park Predators If you wanna know more about you know national Park Disappearances and Crime And then there's a case file episode as well and they said that she was very much involved in the abuse All the close calls I found very upsetting Parnell took him to the same like trailer park where his grandfather was

Caroline 23:34

Really?

Anne 23:34

yeah the first place he stayed he was like a couple hundred meters from his

Caroline 23:38

Oh wow.

Anne 23:39

they could have like

Caroline 23:40

Yeah.

Anne 23:40

at one people searching for him they passed him in the car and you know he got caught shoplifting And not only did he not say anything but they didn't figure it out

Caroline 23:48

When he passed him in the car, he should have shouted out like Amy Bradley did in the middle of the dark

Anne 23:54

know

Caroline 23:54

middle of nowhere.

Anne 23:55

drug I don't know what I believe about Amy Bradley but I don't believe she was in

Caroline 23:59

Mm-hmm.

Anne 24:01

yeah And apparently he said something in class but the teacher didn't follow up which is why we have mandatory

Caroline 24:06

Right.

Anne 24:06

You know he showed dirty nails old clothes but that's a lot of kids are just from a background where have old clothes so

Caroline 24:14

it broke my heart when she talked about how he would walk stiffly like he was in pain.

Anne 24:18

Oh yeah

Caroline 24:20

really gut punch.

Anne 24:21

horrifying shall we talk a little bit about the aftermath for Steven his very public recovery at 14 or 15 years old

Caroline 24:28

it was really sad to hear how they just wouldn't talk about it. especially the dad didn't really wanna allow any conversation around it. No therapy. straight to, we're gonna pretend like it didn't happen, which is very seventies attitude. I guess it was the eighties, but yeah.

Anne 24:44

Yeah I think ties in with the eighties setting and also the religious upbringing they were Mormons I'm not gonna come down on any particular religion except the Catholics because I'm one of them and I can but I think being raised in any extreme scenario does not necessarily make for a well-adjusted adult regardless of specifically which religion we're talking about here

Caroline 25:04

I said correct, I should say. I agree.

Anne 25:07

Right because

Caroline 25:08

this is just an opinion and I agree with you.

Anne 25:11

There was that podcast I listened to a while back called breaking Down Patriarchy which were two Mormon women who had from that upbringing they had but were talking about how harmful it

Caroline 25:20

Yeah,

Anne 25:20

podcast

Caroline 25:22

I, I also just wrote down how the siblings, think the one sister we talked to were there two,

Anne 25:27

I think

Caroline 25:27

I think. one Yeah. And she talked about how she remembered being jealous of the attention

Anne 25:33

Yeah

Caroline 25:33

know, I mean, she was a little kid she didn't realize, you know?

Anne 25:36

I think about my son recently broke his toe and he was quite excited to be able to wear a moon boot to school because of the attention

Caroline 25:44

Mm-hmm.

Anne 25:45

like oh thing but

Caroline 25:46

Mm-hmm.

Anne 25:47

attention to me shall we talk about Kay the mom Um um

Caroline 25:52

Big sigh. Big sigh. for her. From the moment when she starts and she's like, oh, I just feel like everyone knows this story already. Like, I just, I really liked her.

Anne 26:00

her too and I also did here That Del was perhaps sexually abusing his daughters

Caroline 26:07

no.

Anne 26:08

And I don't know if it's one of those things where somebody said it and it's just a lie that's being but there is some suspicion So I say I like Kay that in mind that if that's true I I'm not so sure I like Kay but from what I saw of her in the documentary I

Caroline 26:23

I, yes. So we should say we, we, did not look into her as a person beyond our exposure to her within the context of this documentary and within the context of this documentary. I liked her.

Anne 26:33

Yes very

Caroline 26:34

Yeah.

Anne 26:35

I thought you know she was

Caroline 26:36

Yeah.

Anne 26:37

about Steven and like Obviously she wouldn't talk about Carrie which that's a line that makes sense but you know she lost both of them in totally different ways And she's experiencing that tragedy of outliving both her boys right Like Carrie got the death penalty in 2002 and you know and it's kind of like she's probably allowed to mourn Steven but not really Carrie because he's a murderer And that's still loss right

Caroline 26:59

Oh, I can't believe you haven't watched adolescence. You gotta,

Anne 27:02

Oh God I I don't know if I can put myself through it the things I put myself

Caroline 27:05

I know. You really have to though. It's like a responsibility. If you're raising a boy, you gotta watch it.

Anne 27:10

so she's been labeled cold reminds me of Lindy Chamberlain of the

Caroline 27:14

Uhhuh.

Anne 27:15

baby and the expectations we have of parents in the face of horror and tragedy to behave a certain way And I that's been talked about quite a bit in many different crime podcasts and everything about how everybody reacts differently and there's no way to react to this sort of

Caroline 27:30

Also as a woman, she should really smile more.

Anne 27:33

Ah

Caroline 27:34

I mean, there, there was no way for her to win no matter what.

Anne 27:37

I mean to me she seemed like solid tough battle

Caroline 27:40

Yeah.

Anne 27:40

a mom a horrific situation when she didn't have all the information she needed because of the time she was living in So like no she didn't protect Steven as well as she probably could have from the media aftermath But again like you know what do you do Do you pick up and move and she didn't get therapy But given her religious background and the timing that's a hard ask We know more now

Caroline 28:00

she's not like Miss Rachel, but she's Yeah.

Anne 28:06

Miss Rachel is of banded healer I

Caroline 28:09

yeah, yeah.

Anne 28:11

I I love

Caroline 28:12

Yeah,

Anne 28:12

get me wrong

Caroline 28:13

yeah,

Anne 28:14

wonderful She's very relatable when she tells kids like

Caroline 28:17

yeah. Chili is great.

Anne 28:19

one sad detail I thought was Kay never leaving the house unattended

Caroline 28:22

Oh my God. Yeah. That was heartbreaking.

Anne 28:25

and having to hear rumors like he was chopped up and left in the sewers or false confessions And you know that false confession was because he felt bad wanted to give I mean it's super misguided But that ties into our Amy Bradley

Caroline 28:38

Mm-hmm.

Anne 28:39

from last week People sometimes do say crazy things that aren't true and make false statements It's not unheard of

Caroline 28:45

I don't know that everyone is like self-reflective or introspective enough to like know when they're inserting themselves and it's not helpful. they might genuinely feel like they're being helpful and genuinely feel like. They interacted with Amy Bradley in a bar that cruise ship attendees are hanging out at. But like, they didn't,

Anne 29:06

I think also about her having to the sadness of having to remeet her child like yes she's so back but that lost time a tragedy all the relationship development and memories that happened in that time and then losing him again in the car crash ugh

Caroline 29:21

Wasn't there a moment? I think Steven had a hard time, which I always think about this when I watch like conman or con person things, and I'm like, how do you remember to respond to a different name? Because I don't even hear when people aren't calling my name. I would forget. Yeah.

Anne 29:38

after

Caroline 29:39

Yeah. And that there was one time when he wasn't answering to Steven, and she called him Dennis. I don't think I would've crossed that line.

Anne 29:45

it seemed like she had a lot of respect the fact that he had had

Caroline 29:49

Yeah,

Anne 29:49

it all

Caroline 29:51

that's true.

Anne 29:52

Right he went to school he

Caroline 29:55

Mm-hmm.

Anne 29:56

life he liked and she respected that which I think

Caroline 29:58

Yeah, you're right. Yeah,

Anne 30:00

also yeah Okay In our hereditary episode when we were discussing Tony Colette's character Annie unraveling and the father kind of being the stoic one to pick up the pieces In this case I think it's the opposite she's the one that was stoic you know it was just like we gotta keep going We've got other kids And it was the dad Dell who was unraveling and he was mean at times and he lashed out he says this is a quote from him I went berserk for a while And also a quote with a missing child you have a knot in your chest that never leaves mean when I have too much marking to do So the the fact that he wasn't being a good dad like it it makes

Caroline 30:35

I was mean to the kids today because I worked on a PowerPoint for too long. Like,

Anne 30:40

Yeah Yeah

Caroline 30:42

just to your point, I do think it probably is at least more often than it would be portrayed in media, the case that the woman Is often the one holding things together. Yeah. Somebody has to, not that it's never the man, I know I've mentioned before Reese Witherspoon having that, acceptance speech, I think. Yeah. What do we do now? Asking, you know, like, have you ever heard anyone you know say that?

Anne 31:04

I don't think so No I was wondering I know you were talking about family curses and that was the connection for you between hereditary and this but there's a point in the movie where Dell actually says I wish I was dead Which I think is pretty close to word for word what

Caroline 31:17

Yeah, she does.

Anne 31:18

was that the exact connection or it was

Caroline 31:20

just, I was just trying to think of like a family curse and like I said before, I just didn't wanna do the Kennedy's.

Anne 31:26

Yeah would drive around looking for graves and like yeah just those heartbreaking details were a lot

Caroline 31:33

not knowing was worse than knowing was a line I wrote down, which is often how I feel.

Anne 31:38

that I think it was the sis

Caroline 31:39

the sister. Yeah.

Anne 31:41

That looking into the darkness that sometimes you wish

Caroline 31:44

Mm-hmm.

Anne 31:45

but

Caroline 31:45

have one more thought on Kay. Sorry. so I had also noted how, she had held out hope the whole time, and then when the cops came, she just like had immediately decided that it was bad news. feel like that's something I would do.

Anne 31:57

one of the things that I found most excruciating both about the documentary and the movie was the weight between finding out he was alive and actually seeing him and not being able to trust it It reminded me of Quint water waiting

Caroline 32:10

Mm-hmm.

Anne 32:10

Like I've made Will

Caroline 32:12

Mm-hmm.

Anne 32:13

out of

Caroline 32:13

Mm-hmm.

Anne 32:14

Parnell should we talk about him

Caroline 32:16

I guess, yeah,

Anne 32:17

So he didn't only abuse

Caroline 32:18

right.

Anne 32:18

some mentioned earlier talk about him abusing some of Steven's

Caroline 32:22

What really,

Anne 32:23

which yeah and the movie goes into that too

Caroline 32:25

obviously I don't remember that part.

Anne 32:27

It's in the first half Yeah because it's before Steven escapes with Timmy well I have never trusted Bible salesman since reading Stephen King's the Dead Zone when the Bad Guy is a Bible salesman Parnell did that anyone who's overly zealous about imposing their religion on others I'm sus

Caroline 32:46

One of my first notes is the neighbor, Patricia, who says, I had that instinct a woman has, or that a mother has about Parnell. this is where the whole my favorite murder fuck politeness comes in.

Anne 32:59

Trust

Caroline 32:59

Mm-hmm.

Anne 33:00

The picture they kept showing of Parnell kind of looking sort of flushed with his arm around Steven just ugh it was nauseating keep saying nauseating I think maybe I should change my adjective to un from

Caroline 33:10

I haven't noticed it

Anne 33:12

Okay I feel like I said nauseous somewhere yeah the documentary really skirts around the sexual assault I think they don't even mention it in the first episode And I think up until the second episode I was just like please just let this be a lonely old man That's misguided but not evil And just once a family and course it wasn't Of course So when they found those pictures my

Caroline 33:31

but I think, that went along with the progression of people finding out the details of what happened to him. Right. Because at first he didn't admit to it, so I felt like it was true to the experience of the family. Yeah. Yeah.

Anne 33:43

they around it but it upset me when the reality

Caroline 33:46

Oh, so you thought there was a chance that he wasn't?

Anne 33:50

there was a chance but I was hoping and praying there was a

Caroline 33:52

Yeah, you were sort of like, oh, well we finished an episode and they didn't mention it. Maybe it didn't happen, and he just wanted a responsibility of a small child.

Anne 34:03

Yeah no it it would be naive of me to think it wasn't

Caroline 34:06

Right,

Anne 34:07

and of course it I think the fact that he only charged with kidnapping he got seven years and only served five It's less time than Steven was

Caroline 34:15

right.

Anne 34:16

and subjected abuse is unfair back to my adjective And of course he went on to do it again As Kay predicted she was like he

Caroline 34:24

Mm-hmm.

Anne 34:25

let out yeah And then you try to buy a

Caroline 34:27

I know.

Anne 34:27

luckily the person who he like trusted to help him buy a kid was like And turned him in Unlike Murphy his very dim buddy that Parnell manipulated and to help he's the guy who helped pick up Steven

Caroline 34:39

That's the one who, because I don't think they named him in the documentary. I, he, they mentioned there was men, yeah,

Anne 34:46

was just dumb

Caroline 34:48

I do remember when I watched it.'cause I have watched this twice now. No, I watched the first episode twice I just remember being like, what happened to that other guy? Like, I don't think they really explained that.

Anne 34:57

Well in the movie again if it's accurate Murphy's depicted as kind of reluctant and like this isn't really a good idea But then Parnell him by saying well you were involved in this so if I get caught you get caught And then he's afraid of getting caught And then he at one point again in the maybe I don't know if this is accurate but goes to a payphone and kind of dials and then backs off Yeah So he went to jail too again this speaks to what we talked about before an inclination it's not a mistake Kenneth Parnell shouldn't have been let out from his previous sexual assaults and then was let out again to do it more after Steven but again he was sexually abused So maybe if he hadn't been sexually abused he wouldn't have gone on to abuse others According to the case file episode I listened to do you ever listen to

Caroline 35:36

No.

Anne 35:36

Oh it's this Australian guy and it's very factual just like straight facts

Caroline 35:41

Hmm.

Anne 35:42

You might like it according to that Steven was grateful that Parnell took care of him and kept him alive but also hated him and never wanted to see him again and thought he should be in prison for the rest of his life and

Caroline 35:51

Mm-hmm.

Anne 35:52

about sentence well we haven't talked about Carrie We've been focused completely on Timmy and Steven and Parnell and Carrie and Dell But as we said this documentary focuses on the impact on the family and perhaps this contributed to what Carrie the weight of this loss and the ripple effect on the family The big twist of episode three is what Carrie did

Caroline 36:14

when you talked about. Closure and things having a good ending or whatever. Kay says, nothing ever closes. ever

Anne 36:22

What did she say Something about like not believing in closure

Caroline 36:26

I think this was her, I didn't write down who said it. but I can think I can hear her. She says, I try to remember things the way they happened, and I thought that too, really endeared me to her that she's admitting that memory can be faulty, as can anyone's, that's one of the things that drives me crazy when people are eyewitnesses and supposedly are sure they saw X, Y, Z person and leads to lots of wrongful convictions. the appropriate way to think of your memory is actually that you're trying to remember, Yeah.

Anne 36:56

or it's just bad Like my memory is just bad

Caroline 36:59

Yeah.

Anne 37:00

Okay Carrie first of all I think he looks like that White Lotus season three Walter Goggins He's good looking

Caroline 37:08

I don't think Walter Goggins is good looking.

Anne 37:10

I think he's got a weird sexiness about

Caroline 37:12

yeah.

Anne 37:12

Carrie's

Caroline 37:13

Yeah. Carrie's good looking, unfortunately.

Anne 37:16

I kept thinking and I know it's not about this I know that and sexual assault and overpowering women is not about getting laid but I kept thinking you don't need to do this Like don't like was you could

Caroline 37:27

I mean, it might be that when he opens his mouth, he is so atrocious,

Anne 37:31

time suck episode Apparently he was really into Bigfoot and talked about it a lot so he was fucking

Caroline 37:36

yeah.

Anne 37:36

I mean

Caroline 37:37

There. There are some levels of weird, I'm into Bigfoot's, not one of them, sorry. Patrick Heinz from TCO. He's really into.

Anne 37:45

I'm into Bigfoot but in like a weird way where it's like all I talk about which apparently Carrie Stanner was like really focused on it you for letting me know that Patrick is

Caroline 37:52

He is super into it. Maybe we'll have him on the show along with Jillian someday. Yeah.

Anne 37:58

in the movie when Steven comes home Carrie isn't there and his mom says he's gone camping in Yosemite which feels like real life

Caroline 38:05

Oh, that literally, I felt that in my stomach when you said that. My goodness.

Anne 38:10

watching that this morning I was like oh shit in his younger years he always felt more at ease in the wilderness He was described as calm serene isolated socially uncomfortable with women sister says he wasn't right since he was a to a toddler and he had fantasized about Killing like grocery store employees at the age of

Caroline 38:30

Hmm.

Anne 38:30

And they family tree dotted with like alcoholism mental illness sexual abuse that they didn't really delve into But Carrie was troubled this happened to Steven

Caroline 38:39

Mm-hmm. that's good to know because the actor who played him, I did write down a quote that the actor said, which I did actually write down his name. It's Todd Andrews. it wasn't his story, it was his his brother's story, and it fucked up his life and he's angry about it.

Anne 38:53

yeah But again most people wouldn't then go on to do what he did there's something else I think there was a dark passenger there before what

Caroline 39:02

Is that a Dexter reference?

Anne 39:03

course

Caroline 39:05

Clocked it.

Anne 39:07

Thank you Well what did he do again the documentary doesn't go too much into the details but he murdered four women between February and July 1999 and Yosemite which is why he's called the Yosemite Killer He was a handyman out a motel where he killed three women 42-year-old mother and her 15-year-old daughter and her 16-year-old friend So that was Sina and Juliana this really bothered me because around the age of the mother and I have a nearing teenage daughter And you know to have to be part of that happening not only to you but to your teenage daughter is just horrifying

Caroline 39:43

there are a couple stories of murders of children who are accompanying another family, every time that happens, I always just think like how much of my life I might spend. Wishing I had said no the play date, or to the sleepover, to the whatever, you know?

Anne 39:58

Yeah it's awful so we're both people who camp and once went camping with my friend another mom her kids our kids And luckily her massive

Caroline 40:08

Mm-hmm.

Anne 40:09

we were using Hipc camp Do you use do you use hip camp Is that a thing in

Caroline 40:12

I don't know what that is.

Anne 40:13

It's awesome It's like Airbnb for camping so people who have farms can just like well come just camp in this paddock or whatever So it's cheaper and you can stay in places where you're not on top of each other but not being on top of each other means you can be quite isolated Like there might not be a lot of campers around we went on this camping trip the host was telling us about the area while we were setting up And he was like super focused on the fact that it was two women camping on their own he was shocked We were putting up our own tents and things like that after he left my friend turned to me and was like is he gonna kill us tonight I was like thank God we've got your dog But like you know luckily it was just good old fashioned chauvinism and we were obviously fine but it feels unfair that I can't be as a woman ease in that situation I'm always thinking like some man gonna come murder me tonight The

Caroline 40:55

You're as a woman, not Eddie's in almost any situation.

Anne 41:01

I Carrie targeted these women there when they should have been able to be out there enjoying nature

Caroline 41:07

Yeah. So I know I've talked on this podcast once or twice already about how being like in total silence freaks me out and I need a buzz, constant buzz. So like, a noise buzz, you know, atmospheric. In fact, my husband came home from work and he was like, what are you watching? And I just like have Dateline on while I'm doing my work. it's just on in the background, just for there to be noise. but yeah, so we have a KOA membership and we have a camper. And so wherever we're camping, there's like lots of people around. I don't feel safe in an alone environment. And it's, I think a lot of times stories like this, if someone else can't hear. What's happening to me? I'm afraid someone's going to get away with whatever they're doing to me,

Anne 41:49

This one place we went we were one of two groups in the whole campsite and that other group was at least 200 meters away Like you could barely see them through the trees it was very nice because we had all this space We had a field we were playing like a little game of family touch footy And there were dogs on the farm that were just hanging out with us And it was lovely But at the same time just in the background the whole time I'm like there's nobody to hear

Caroline 42:10

right? Always have somebody to hear you scream.

Anne 42:14

somebody to hear you scream Yep Well and then a few months later he uh came across Joey Armstrong was working in Yosemite and sexually assaulted and nearly decapitated her

Caroline 42:25

she seemed very cool. They went into her like a little bit more than the three women who died together. I'm, I'm sure all of his victims deserve the same amount of time. But they did spend more time on Jo, and she seemed like a very cool chick.

Anne 42:39

yeah And then you know the Argentinian girl obviously as you've said her parents said

Caroline 42:44

Yeah.

Anne 42:44

go on that trip with your

Caroline 42:45

Yeah.

Anne 42:46

now there's some other murders he suspected of There's some some unsolved murders in Yosemite around that time that they think could be him And also uncle was shot while he was living with him and the uncle molested Carrie so of course he did it

Caroline 43:00

Yeah. And if that's the case, that uncle probably deserved it.

Anne 43:03

yeah it was weird The documentary didn't really talk about that They were very light on the there's some weird stuff going on this family

Caroline 43:09

I guess it was pretty family led in that way, when there was stuff they weren't gonna talk about, they did not push it.

Anne 43:14

and maybe that's why the family agreed if you're gonna talk about how you know people were molesting each other we're not gonna be involved So as I said earlier if you wanna know more about crime and National Parks there's a podcast called Park Predators which focuses entirely on that The episode about Carrie was called The Predator and it's episode four back in 2020 But there's lots of

Caroline 43:32

Yeah. There's also a TV series called Wild Crime

Anne 43:35

I'll have to watch that am Both fascinated and horrified by this another one that comes up is Israel

Caroline 43:41

Mm-hmm.

Anne 43:43

There was no last podcast on the left on the

Caroline 43:45

I,

Anne 43:46

but there was Israel Keys so I did listen to

Caroline 43:49

I when you mentioned the podcast that you listened to, I was gonna be like, and no podcast

Anne 43:55

no they have a gap in their true crime coverage They haven't covered it yet I read this outside magazine article and there're about 300 deaths a year in national parks but like most of them are exposure d drowning like they're solvable But then you do have all these people that are missing and it's like okay well did they drown and get washed away and national parks are big did somebody like Israel Keys or Carrie Stainer them and bury them in a way that we weren't that we just don't know

Caroline 44:18

or Ted Bundy. A lot of those skulls were up in the mountains.

Anne 44:20

Ugh I hate him

Caroline 44:21

can I say that my biggest disappointment about this is that Carrie was driving my literal favorite car of all time. A 19 19 72 Powder Blue International Scout. That is my favorite car. That like exact car.

Anne 44:35

that

Caroline 44:35

Yeah.

Anne 44:36

car even

Caroline 44:38

I,

Anne 44:38

of

Caroline 44:38

wrote it down being like, what the fuck man? It's my car.

Anne 44:43

simulation

Caroline 44:45

wait. It became my favorite car from the movie Fool's Rush in because, she's driving it and I was like, that's a fricking cool car.

Anne 44:52

I haven't seen that

Caroline 44:53

You haven't seen Fool's Rush in.

Anne 44:54

that with Chandler Oh yeah yeah

Caroline 44:55

Okay.

Anne 44:56

that I was thinking

Caroline 44:57

Okay.

Anne 44:57

Yeah

Caroline 44:58

Okay.

Anne 44:59

All right So I guess we should talk about why did Carrie do it We've already talked about did he already always have a dark passenger also He had that trite or other where you pull out your hair from

Caroline 45:07

Oh really?

Anne 45:08

Yeah So he was like pulling out his eyebrows and his eyelashes and stuff you know was it just a horrible coincidence that this happened to happen to Steven And Carrie was always going to be a serial murderer And again as we talk about this just like in our Eileen Enos episode we're discussing this not as a justification or rationalization but an explanation So again I don't wanna criticize his parents because God knows how any of us would cope with that but Steven's disappearance did make them less available for him dark shadow to grow up in he didn't get therapy when he was clearly disturbed as a child Could this have been

Caroline 45:38

and Ashley, the daughter, she mentions that she loves true crime because, she's fascinated by what makes a person want to actually harm somebody that way.

Anne 45:48

the daughter of someone who experienced crime you could either be just like Ugh I want nothing to do with this Or be really drawn

Caroline 45:54

right,

Anne 45:55

she's drawn to it

Caroline 45:56

I actually wonder if he had like a head injury at some point,

Anne 46:00

Right

Caroline 46:01

potentially. Yeah.

Anne 46:02

I think Carrie may have felt responsible The Big brother is supposed to protect you know and maybe Del took that out on him you know why weren't you there Like maybe there was that that underlying vibe so there's the responsibility aspect you know you know how kids blame themselves

Caroline 46:16

yeah.

Anne 46:16

if there was no reason to blame himself maybe he did

Caroline 46:18

I kind of assumed that Dell would've taken it out on Kay.'cause she was late to pick him up.

Anne 46:22

I didn't get that impression and again maybe this is only because Carrie went on to do what he did but they played up Dell being mean to Carrie which they show in the movie which was made long before Carrie did anything right So that was clearly happening based on Carrie's interviews

Caroline 46:36

That's so sad. I mean, I wonder cause you mentioned, and they don't illustrate this at all in the documentary, but if he had violent fantasies as a child, then you have to wonder was he born with something, some compulsion, or did he have a head injury or something like that that created it?

Anne 46:54

it's this confluence of events right We've got a disturbed child potentially a head injury some potentially sexual abuse happening Then Steven Stanner happens and it all comes together to create this toxic environment where somebody with a predisposition to violence is going to act on it when maybe otherwise they

Caroline 47:09

Right. if you are to believe this journalist, which he seems credible. I don't know anything about him other than what was in the documentary, but he asked for a story of the week himself, When he was confessing.

Anne 47:21

Ted Rowland

Caroline 47:22

The reporter that interviewed him in The Ho, in the, jail. he asked for a movie of the week in 1999 too, which also makes me think of the head entry thing.'cause it's like, who thinks there's movies of the week happening in 1999? Total Request Live is on. Nobody's watching a movie the week.

Anne 47:38

And then on the other side the mitigator is saying he's fame averse He's a shrinking

Caroline 47:43

Oh my God. Right. What is a mitigation specialist? I have never even heard of that before. I have a friend who's profession is in mock jury trials and whatever, and I was like, what is a mitigation specialist? And she's like, I don't know. Like, I've never heard of that.

Anne 47:58

Okay So I don't know which one is it Does he want a TV movie or is he fame averse if he said to the reporter he wants a TV movie I kind of feel like that's probably true

Caroline 48:08

the mitigation specialist's job is to make the jury sympathetic to Carrie, then of course he's gonna say, yeah, he's biased.

Anne 48:15

And but there is that real video footage of him in the background He's watching Steven get interviewed and then he turns around and

Caroline 48:21

Yeah, he's pissed. He's jealous.

Anne 48:22

maybe he had to pee but like it doesn't look

Caroline 48:24

It's not a I have to pee face.

Anne 48:28

but you know is I think it's overly simplistic to be like I'm jealous of my brother getting attention so I decapitate women it's more than

Caroline 48:34

Oh yeah. I think the desire to be notorious might have been, you know, so he might have had these like violent tendencies and compulsions, but being notorious in some way might have been ultimately, I mean, he's taken his own car. He is not being careful. Although Ted Bundy took his own car, he wasn't that careful. But it's not, it's 1999.

Anne 48:53

He to be like a lot of them

Caroline 48:55

true.

Anne 48:55

once they're caught

Caroline 48:56

Once they're caught. Yeah.

Anne 48:57

One last comment I have on him he's a stain the name Carrie Carrie

Caroline 49:02

Oh, I thought you were making a stainer punt.

Anne 49:05

No I actually wasn't thinking about that but I was thinking about the Princess bride

Caroline 49:10

how do you feel about punts? I've been meaning to ask you this. Oh, so we have it. Okay. So I was just saying to someone like, I feel like every good podcast with two friends has one friend who loves punts and one friend who hates them, and I love them.

Anne 49:25

hate them

Caroline 49:26

But the problem is that even though I love them, I don't have the, yeah, I don't have the mind that like comes up with them on my own. I'm like failing in my responsibility as the pun appreciating person on this podcast.

Anne 49:40

She comes up with them

Caroline 49:41

And she can be Caroline number one in this one instance.

Anne 49:46

all right What is the or most disturbing moment for you

Caroline 49:50

You pick what was yours.

Anne 49:53

I have three when the police officers present the photos of abuse to Steven who's desperately trying to deny that it ever happened and I just imagine this moment for this poor 14-year-old ashamed boy oh I'm not gonna be able to pretend this never happened It's getting out And that is just so

Caroline 50:09

That is sad.

Anne 50:10

My other was the teacher who had a

Caroline 50:12

Mm-hmm.

Anne 50:13

up I hope I'm never with a clue that I dismiss and then find out later that there was actually something going on and reference to Carrie's murder The note we had fun with this one I know it was misdirection to make it think like it was a group of people but the idea that someone can have fun assaulting and murdering someone is really sadistic and disturbing

Caroline 50:34

Yeah, When I think about the most upsetting moments, I think watching Kay try to figure out how to respond to the issue of Carrie, was hard just imagining what it would be like to be her in every of these circumstances, you know?

Anne 50:51

You're a mother you're supposed to love this person but maybe you're not allowed to love him because he's or to publicly show that And then that feeling of where

Caroline 50:58

Right. Is it your fault?

Anne 50:59

yeah I am blamed I

Caroline 51:01

Mm-hmm.

Anne 51:02

All right other deeper horror I you know we've already talked about the sexual abuse and the trauma it causes and how we haven't always it with the consequences it deserves I think also the horror of the unknown when someone's missing versus dead if someone is missing there's there's hope but there's also the horror of what they're going

Caroline 51:22

I think about that every time I listen to like a missing person thing is how, Much that would drive me insane. And how I don't think that I am a strong enough person, to be able to deal with that. you know, I was noting The date being December 4th and I've had a lot of family passing in December, in proximity to Christmas that is hard enough when it's not a person older than you, or when it is a person older than you. I should, I mean, I always think about that with the parents of Sandy Hook victims and by that point you probably have presence, for that person. And it's just really awful.

Anne 51:58

Yeah every Christmas every birthday being like they're supposed to be

Caroline 52:01

Right.

Anne 52:01

yeah it's awful Another deeper horror that we haven't talked about too much we've touched on is the media response and the sensationalism And I think part of the you know point or message of this documentary is about the harm that the media did in this and I think both The documentary in the movie reinforce how unprotected Steven was from the media It shocked me to the core that the school allowed reporters to interview him in class cannot imagine how that was approved I can see them you know like clustering around the entrance or the exit of the school and trying to catch em on the way in or out But like who let those people into that classroom

Caroline 52:36

Even Miss Teasley wasn't down with that it was like hard copy, but it wasn't hard copy. What was that fake show that Brenda. Participated in, they had to have their van on like the outskirts of campus. It was like Lifestyles of the Rich and Richa.

Anne 52:50

Okay Now I don't remember it Uh and Gail Weathers I don't think she went into the school

Caroline 52:54

No,

Anne 52:55

She had to wait

Caroline 52:55

well, she was on school property. Actually. I think that that punch happens in the front of the school.

Anne 53:00

And again I'm not saying the media's perfect now by any means but they wouldn't be camping out in the kids chemistry class you've already mentioned knowing too much looking into the darkness satisfying curiosity can lead to regret because once you know you know and my last deeper horror I think Kay says at one point life takes a turn and that's it this was one of my true horrors of hereditary how quickly something irreparable can Do you have any questions

Caroline 53:25

guess you've brought up a bunch of stuff that I wasn't aware of.

Anne 53:30

abused his daughters is an outstanding question

Caroline 53:32

right. yes, obviously that, but I think a lot of times when I'm watching these documentaries, unless there's like a stylistic or insensitive approach, it doesn't even like occur to me what the questions might be. doesn't occur to me necessarily what I don't know. But you've mentioned a lot.

Anne 53:48

My other question was title audience does it mean it us Are we the captive audience True crime viewers this actually about his crime or are they planning on making a series Is Steven's family the captive audience what do they mean I don't know I I had trouble getting the

Caroline 54:03

Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, I guess they did regularly reinforce the made for TV movie aspect and stuff. And I wrote down in 1989, 40 million people watched that. That is a lot of people

Anne 54:16

So maybe is the captive audience We were held captive by the

Caroline 54:20

And I guess like ultimately, did it help or did it hurt or did it do nothing at all? From the moment that there was buzz around. Steven being missing the media buzz around him didn't make him found,

Anne 54:32

I mean I think sometimes the media can help find something but it obviously didn't lead to him being

Caroline 54:36

it didn't.

Anne 54:37

And then it after he was found And it was part of the reason Carrie did what

Caroline 54:41

Mm-hmm.

Anne 54:41

I

Caroline 54:41

Mm-hmm.

Anne 54:42

So in this case the media Is

Caroline 54:44

Mm-hmm.

Anne 54:45

I think or should be the harm that was done right Criticism I

Caroline 54:49

I really didn't have any. I thought it was great.

Anne 54:51

I did think it was good as well I would've liked to have heard from Timmy and I know that's not possible because Timmy died in his

Caroline 54:56

Shut up.

Anne 54:57

yeah he became a cop I think He died at the age of 35 of a pulmonary

Caroline 55:02

So fucking bizarre, it's like with Martha Moxley, which I know I said I was sick of the Kennedys, but as a Kennedy related story, all the people surrounding her death that might have answers also have died like weirdly. one of them got in like a skiing accident, you know, like there's just a lot of these bizarre deaths and you're just like, yeah, like a curse. So weird.

Anne 55:25

when I say I wanna hear from Timmy not even to hear about his memories of being kidnapped but to hear his memories of Steven Steven was hero

Caroline 55:33

Oh my.

Anne 55:33

And I think he was a Steven's

Caroline 55:35

see

Anne 55:36

Funeral Yeah I read

Caroline 55:37

those pictures of them are so adorable. The pictures and footage of them together. I mean, they're like siblings.

Anne 55:45

hope that it's true that he was never assaulted

Caroline 55:47

too.

Anne 55:47

which I doubts about given that I think Steven was assaulted from like the very first night But I hope that's true

Caroline 55:54

Yeah.

Anne 55:55

All right survival I have been anti motorcycle my brother had one My older brother had one when I was a child and it always horrified me Nothing ever happened to him but I was very scared every time he wrote off on it And then I read the stand which as we said the actor who plays Stephen is in Stephen King fans You know why don't ride motorcycles

Caroline 56:13

my dad and stepdad and mom all rode motorcycles. They used to hang out together and ride motorcycles altogether. My dad and stepdad drove across country on their motorcycles. and it always seemed terrifying to me, although I have a very badass picture of my mom riding a motorcycle on her own with like no helmet. Everything. Very seventies it looks cool. But I also remember I had a college roommate, All four years of college. Her sister worked at a hospital and she was like, the number one thing I would say you should never do is ride a motorcycle.

Anne 56:44

I've been on a motorcycle like on the back of one and I was horrified and every time I drive behind a motorcycle I'm so

Caroline 56:50

Me too.

Anne 56:50

them because protection

Caroline 56:52

too. I've been on the back of a moped.

Anne 56:54

I've been on balls I didn't like it

Caroline 56:56

No,

Anne 56:57

do you have any survival tips

Caroline 56:58

never meet a man. Although that's from wine and crime.

Anne 57:02

Yeah you don't always need to be respectful of your elders That is drilled into us Teach your kids to trust their gut An early scene of I know my name first name is Steven in the first like 10 minutes is Steven has misbehaved and the dad is telling Steven you've gotta listen to adults I think that's an important thing is you don't always have to listen to

Caroline 57:18

Yeah, and the mom admits that as well. Like, we taught him to respect adults and,

Anne 57:24

were taught

Caroline 57:24

of course. in the current era there's a lot of, like someone else is in the room or, when, we go to see the pediatrician, she always says, it's okay that I'm doing this'cause your mom is here. She states that proactively. So I always appreciate that,

Anne 57:38

I think respect adults but don't always do what they

Caroline 57:41

Right,

Anne 57:42

Especially if Something's off

Caroline 57:44

right. Yeah. Trust your gut.

Anne 57:46

get therapy if something like this has happened Don't be afraid of that Break that cycle of

Caroline 57:50

And I will say like there's different types of therapy. So like Talk therapy does not work for me personally, but I've done cognitive behavioral therapy and I found it incredibly helpful, giving me a tool that I can use later on. If you've been through therapy and it wasn't working for you, there's other types you could try. You don't have to just stick with what's traditional.

Anne 58:10

And my last one is don't let someone you Like Carrie's description of the murders of the first three women was pretending that he needed to check a leak he tied them up under the pretense that he was robbing them Once you were tied up

Caroline 58:22

Mm-hmm.

Anne 58:23

right I off fighting That's my personal opinion and maybe people disagree with me but I'd rather fight and get shot in the fight than taken somewhere and tortured and raped And are recording this again while ice is still terrorizing Minneapolis don't know what will be happening by the time we release this was it's probably not gonna be for like a month given our release schedule but been reports of sexual assaults in these facilities and they're blocking our representatives from inspecting them So and what's to stop some person who's not ice but a predator pulling up with know their face covered dressed like ice and saying they're ice and abducting you So I don't know Fight hard

Caroline 58:55

I would say the same.'cause I always think about there's that moment when Ted Bundy had that girl in his car and it, a cop pulled up next to them and he was like, if you scream, I'll kill you. And she didn't, and he killed her anyway. I would agree like scream.

Anne 59:10

Take the opportunity to escape Like

Caroline 59:12

He's gonna kill you right next to the cop,

Anne 59:15

with

Caroline 59:15

Right,

Anne 59:16

and you have better if you're

Caroline 59:17

right,

Anne 59:18

go

Caroline 59:18

right.

Anne 59:19

you can A cleanser

Caroline 59:21

so I love the show Dairy Girls and I hadn't finished the new newer, I think it's the second season, Yeah. So I finished the second season recently and it is lovely. So that is my palate cleanser. But also, if you haven't listened to our last couple episodes and there's a chance you haven't watched Heated Rivalry, please do yourself a favor. It's never too late.

Anne 59:45

I have to apologize I haven't start at Heat Rivalry yet because I was trying to find the time to watch I know my name is Steven in my TV time so I haven't made Time for Heat at Rivalry despite this being the third time you've recommended

Caroline 59:56

I'm not gonna start. I'm not gonna apologize.

Anne 59:58

Okay I have a palate cleanser too over the weekend we watched The Mummy with the kids I just love Evie and Rick Their love is so pure It's such a delightful movie so always fun to revisit that

Caroline 1:00:09

Yeah, I don't think I've watched that since like the very first time, so I'm gonna need to give it a

Anne 1:00:15

us We watch it like I don't know annually or something

Caroline 1:00:18

Also, I got some tattoos that I'd been waiting to get for a really long time. So like if you're waiting on doing that thing, just go do that thing.

Anne 1:00:25

Do the thing you've been procrastinating about whether that's decluttering your closet or trying something new

Caroline 1:00:31

There's only, now there's only this, as they say in rent.

Anne 1:00:35

That that's a blast from the past Okay Homework On our next episode we'll be continuing our run of Cursed families we'll be discussing Mexican Gothic by Sylvia Marino Garcia which pairs nicely with Frankenstein in terms of its athe in terms of its can't say aesthetic in terms of its aesthetic the yellow wallpaper which are past episodes and then puts us onto recommendations What do you recommend to pair with captive audience And I know my name is

Caroline 1:01:01

Okay. While, while talking, we discussed Bluey.

Anne 1:01:05

Okay always

Caroline 1:01:06

I know, we also discussed adolescence, I mentioned wild crime, which is a docuseries, wild crime as well as I think. Almost every documentary I'm gonna mention there are true crime obsessed episodes that cover, so also I am always happy to listen to them talk about these things. in terms of family stories, there's the Murdoch murders. So there's a lot of Murdoch family content. I prefer the docuseries, Murdoch Murders a Southern scandal. I thought it was really good. And it has a lot of the victims' families involved. There's six Schizophrenic Brothers, which is also a very interesting series about, family schizophrenia. Going to fictional stories about family stuff. There is the Netflix series Bloodline, which I really loved. and the perfect couple. we also talked about the, my favorite murder episode that covered this story in particular. That was episode 30, which happened to have my favorite title of all the episode titles that they've ever had. The fuck word, murder mystery show. It's the name of that title.

Anne 1:02:05

would've

Caroline 1:02:06

yeah, it was very early, Yeah. in other podcasts, there's a podcast by Julie Murray, who is the sister of Maura Murray. and it's called Media Pressure. I think Season two is also about a family. uh, I'm forgetting the sister's name. Her father Murders her sister. there's, so there's two seasons of media pressure. It's very good. And then, I mentioned Martha Moxley briefly in talking about the Kennedys. I don't wanna give them any attention, but there's a documentary about Martha Moxley called Murder and Justice, the case of Martha Mur Moxley, that I would also recommend.

Anne 1:02:37

Okay I would like to recommend Untamed with Eric Bna and Sam Neil It's a murder mystery set in Yosemite I've loved Eric Benef for a very long time and the landscape's stunning the Stand The book by Stephen King and the miniseries the nineties miniseries I haven't watched the new one Apparently it's not that good but I always actually thought Koran Mick that actor who plays Harold was miscast because he's like too appealing and the way Harold Lauder is written in the book he is a very unappealing guy but I still love that many series I had it on VHS as a tween So check that

Caroline 1:03:07

very Jaws by the way, like jaws adjacent, the media. the police chief is not likable in the book either, right?

Anne 1:03:13

yes that's true Yeah Brody much more of a jerk in the book but also hooper like

Caroline 1:03:19

Yeah.

Anne 1:03:19

a jerk in the book a much better movie Uh in terms of that Yosemite setting free solo and the Don Wall my husband and I have gone through multiple times where we have gotten into like mountain climbing movies and they're both really awesome documentaries Oh hey look I'm talking about my husband and I don't think you have

Caroline 1:03:35

No, I did, I did.

Anne 1:03:38

You did Okay

Caroline 1:03:39

I also did last week because

Anne 1:03:40

but

Caroline 1:03:41

I said I didn't, but I, I really was talking about our wedding, not really him.

Anne 1:03:46

the the word husband I don't think but his presence was implied You talked about your honeymoon and your

Caroline 1:03:51

I think I said we were trapped. Anyway,

Anne 1:03:54

It's okay I mentioned this podcast Time set case file park Predators There's also a California True Crime podcast that has a whole like I dunno it's like 13 part series on this I listened to one episode of it because I didn't have time to do all that mentioned the door-to-door salesman aspect which reminds me of another Stephen King book the Dead Zone Greg Stillen is Trump coded for sure Read that fact that Steven was abducted outside of a gas station as well as that there's a child keeping a terrible secret for an adult in their life and still going to school Reminded me of the movie Weapons which has just been nominated for a best supporting actress award for Amy Madigan who plays the Baddy and shout out to the Oscars not passing over Horror go watch Sinners It's got 16 nominations It's amazing Frankenstein also got quite a few which is what we cover on episode 23 So It's the best year for horror in terms of Oscar nominations that horror has ever had So yay And then I haven't read it probably since I was a teenager but kidnapping and brainwashing made me think of this book called All Around The Town by Mary Higgins Clark that I just loved maybe it doesn't hold up I have no idea But I remember loving it at the time The director Jessica Dimick also directed documentary called Flint Town about the struggles that Flint faced and is facing after the water crisis So that sounds interesting and if you liked captive audience you might wanna check this out And obviously there's the TV movie I know my name is Steven and there's also a book that it's based on so you might want to check out some more media surrounding this story All right That's it Do you have anything else Okay you for listening Please do all the things podcasters ask you to do like and subscribe Follow us on Instagram Facebook or Threads read review on iTunes You can email us at Drawn to Darkness pod@gmail.com And most importantly please tell a like-minded friend who's also drawn to darkness and if like Shirley Jackson delight in what you fear join us in two weeks here at Drawn To Darkness Special shout out to Nancy Ano who painted our cover art. You can find her on Instagram at Nancy ano and to Harry Kidd for our intro and outro music. You can find him on Instagram at Harry J. Kidd and on Spotify.