Amy Berg's West of Memphis with Gillian Pensavalle

Welcome back to Drawn to Darkness. This week, we are joined by special guest Gillian Pensavalle from True Crime Obsessed to discuss West of Memphis (2012), Amy Berg’s documentary that revisits the case of the West Memphis Three. In 1993, Stevie Branch, Michael Moore, and Christopher Byers were murdered and with little evidence and rising panic about satanic rituals, police quickly focused on three local teenagers: Damien Echols, Jason Baldwin, and Jesse Misskelley. Despite inconsistent confessions, lack of physical evidence, and alibis, all three were convicted, and Echols was sentenced to death. West of Memphis follows the nearly 20-year fight to free and exonerate them. Meanwhile, the real perpetrator remains unidentified. 

We unpack wrongful convictions, moral panic, police misconduct, what Damien is like in real life, and the long, exhausting fight for justice. We explore how three teenagers were targeted as “weird kids,” how fear of satanism shaped a narrative with no evidence, and why decades later they may be free from prison, but still aren’t exonerated. 

Spoiler + Content Warning

This episode and the documentary include discussion and imagery of the murder of children, child abuse, castration, false confessions, prison abuse, solitary confinement, systemic injustice, wrongful convictions, and satanic panic. We also spoil the documentary.

Palate Cleanser

• True Crime Obsessed – if you like a laugh along with your true crime. 
• Spending time with family (as simple as ice cream or Del’s Lemonade)

Recommendations

• Bob Ruff’s Truth & Justice podcast (Season 5) 
• Mara Leveritt’s Devil’s Knot (deep dive into courtroom details) 
• Wrongful Conviction podcast (featuring interviews with Damien Echols and Jason Baldwin) 
• Satan Wants You (documentary about Satanic Panic) 
• Sarah Marshall’s podcast You’re Wrong About + The Devil You Know 
• Stranger Things (Eddie Munson inspired by Damien Echols) 
• Mindhunter (John Douglas appears in the case) 
• The Crucible (mass hysteria and scapegoating) 
• Stand By Me, The Goonies, It (kids, innocence, and loss) 
• The Body Farm by Patricia Cornwell for a Medical Examiner who knows what she’s doing.
• The Hurricane with Denzel Washington for more wrongful convictions
• The Craft and The Perks of Being a Wallflower - for the “weird” kids
• Lord of the Rings  and listen to Pearl Jam  (support the celebrities who championed the West Memphis 3) 
• Damien Echols’ books, podcast, and Patreon 

Homework

Next episode, we’ll discuss Sinners before shifting gears slightly with:

•  Goodfellas 
•  The Devil in the White City by Erik Larson (it’s a book, so start now!) 

And remember, always insist on a lawyer!

Special thanks to Nancy Azano for our cover art (Instagram: @nancyazano) and Harry Kidd for our music (Instagram: @harryjkidd, Spotify). 

Transcript

Anne 0:10

Welcome back to John to Darkness, a sometimes weekly, sometimes biweekly podcast where we discuss our favorite horror and true crime. If you're more worried about the Andrew Tate boys than the Goth kids, we're here for you. My name is Annie, and I'll be introducing Caroline to my favorite horror movies, podcasts, TV shows, and books.

Caroline 0:25

My name is Caroline and I'll be doing the same from the true crime side of things.

Anne 0:29

So Caroline, if you could invite any podcast host to be a guest on John to Darkness, who do you think you would choose? I'd probably choose Liz Sauer from Ghosts in the Burbs, or Lynn Cummins from Scared to Death. What about you?

Caroline 0:41

Well, it's so funny you should ask that because we have her here today.

Anne 0:45

Are you serious?

Caroline 0:46

We have the one and only in Jillian, Pennsylvania. Did I say one and only in.

Gillian (she/her) 0:52

I don't know what you said. This is your show. You're running it. What? That Let's just do that.

Caroline 0:55

Yeah, the one in Ian, Jillian, Pennsylvania from True Crime obsessed here to discuss West of Memphis.

Gillian (she/her) 1:04

Hi friends. Hi Caroline. Hi Annie. Thank you so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be here.

Anne 1:08

We're so excited to have you.

Caroline 1:10

over the moon. This is like a dream come true.

Gillian (she/her) 1:13

Hey, me too.

Anne 1:13

Yeah. Well, before we get too far into it, trigger warning, we are discussing west of Memphis today, which is something that's very important to Jillian. this is a pretty rough documentary, and therefore our discussion will also be, touching on some pretty tough issues. This documentary does show the dead bodies of very small little boys. It was pretty tough to watch. there's also discussion of sexual assault, castration, satanism, prison abuse, and a lot of injustice We'll give you a second to pause if you wanna go watch it first. Okay, here we go. Caroline, can you tell us what this is about?

Caroline 1:46

Amy Berg's 2012 documentary west of Memphis, revisits, one of the most infamous true crime cases of the 1990s, the murders of eight year olds, Stevie Branch, Michael Moore, and Christopher Byers, who went out for an afternoon bike ride in West Memphis, Arkansas in 1993 and never came home. Discovered hogtied a creek with brutal and confusing injuries, in particular to their private areas. Rumors about Satanic rituals started swirling almost immediately. It didn't take long for police to zero in on local, weird kids, Damien Ecol, Jason Baldwin, and Jesse Kel. Weird kids in quotes. After a full day of interrogation that would raise about a thousand red flags today, but that we are all too familiar with as true crime podcasters, Ms. Kelly eventually confessed despite the fact that the timeline didn't make sense. Details were wrong. There was no physical evidence tying any of the three to the crime. were witnessed being elsewhere, et cetera, et cetera. Nevertheless, the teenagers who would become known as the West Memphis three were convicted Eccles sentenced to death west of Memphis then follows the nearly two decade effort to free them. The push for justice comes from Damien's girlfriend and now wife, Lori, help from mine, Hunter's own John Douglas Innocent Project Attorneys, a truly fearless private investigator who isn't above grabbing a few discarded cigarette butts for DNA a surprisingly long list of celebrity advocates. new DNA evidence and a closer look at the original medical findings start to unravel the prosecution's theory, attention shifts towards another possible suspect. Allegedly very Hobbs, stepfather of Stevie Branch, whose violent history was never seriously investigated at the time. as we all know, the wheels of justice tend to move very slowly, especially when people in charge would really rather not admit they might have done, anything wrong and really don't wanna do without much paperwork. after 18 years in prison, the three men accept what's called an Alfred plea, basically pleading guilty while still maintaining their innocence, which is exactly as weird as it sounds. It gets them out of prison, but also protects the state from being sued for wrongful conviction. And the worst part, these murders are still unsolved.

Anne 3:50

Well, what adjective, we'll start with you, Jillian, would you use to describe this?

Gillian (she/her) 3:56

Maybe,

Anne 3:57

what about you?

Caroline 3:57

I always struggle when we have this question I try to balance between the documentary itself and the case, right?

Gillian (she/her) 4:03

Yeah.

Caroline 4:04

And the documentary is just really beautifully done. think it's artful, but the case, yeah, exasperate infuriating. unfair to steal your yours from last week, Annie.

Anne 4:16

I'm gonna quote lawyer Steven Bragga, who said it was outrageous, and take it a step further and quote Jackie Chiles from Seinfeld. Outrageous, egregious, preposterous,

Gillian (she/her) 4:26

All those things.

Anne 4:27

all those things.

Gillian (she/her) 4:27

documentary required viewing. It's always on my list. no matter what the question about documentaries I love or really think people should see, I think it's excellently done, and I, I tell people to watch that as opposed to Paradise Loss 1, 2, 3. You can, of course, I think you should, just for the sake of the importance of. fact that Joe Berliner went down there and like suddenly now we're here. 'cause if he didn't go down there, we would not be here. but in terms of grasping the case and really understanding the feeling of what is, what was happening and what is happening, west Memphis for sure, start there. I would say

Anne 5:00

Doesn't Damian credit, paradise Lost for basically bringing all these people into the fold,

Gillian (she/her) 5:04

Yes. Everyone, Lori, Lori saw it in downtown Manhattan and said, what is going on? Yeah, that's, that's not being hyperbolic. We would not be here without

Anne 5:12

right? No.

Gillian (she/her) 5:13

Yeah.

Anne 5:13

Well, this took me on a journey because I knew nothing going in. When Caroline brought it up, I was conflating it with Central Park five and the West Mesa bone collector. So I had like, my West s confused that when Caroline said we were doing this because it was important to you and I, deliberately didn't look up anything before I was thinking they were still in jail and that's why it was important to you. And so I thought it was gonna end with like the Postscript and they're still in prison, so I was so relieved that they actually got out because I didn't think they were.

Gillian (she/her) 5:38

yeah. What did you think as as someone who didn't know anything about it, what was that journey like for you? That two and a half hour

Anne 5:44

Yeah, it was,

Gillian (she/her) 5:44

thing?

Anne 5:45

it was upsetting. I mean, I, I'm a high school teacher, so like I teach kids like these guys, you know, and they're edgy and they're weird and they're, trying to show off often. And just to think that one of my kids could get swept up in something like this was very upsetting, but I was so relieved that they were out because I was like. Thinking that that was where this was going to end?

Gillian (she/her) 6:05

It's funny 'cause uh, I mean nothing about, it's funny, but it's interesting because they're out, but they're not exonerated. So we've been

Anne 6:11

No.

Gillian (she/her) 6:12

get this DNA tested ever since really, we finally got it where it's at, the lab being tested. But like when they said in the, the documentary that. the DNA that they had excluded Damien, Jesse, and Jason. And that didn't really seem to matter to anybody. and you know, there was this, this whole story, I don't know if you know it, but the, West Memphis Police Department lied and said that all the evidence had been destroyed in a fire there was no fire. 'cause there were FOIA requests to be like, really? Where was this fire? And why wasn't this preserved? And also that's illegal and now we can sue you and what is going on? And they were like, oh, actually it's been here this whole time. So they lied that it

Anne 6:48

so they did have it. I knew about the big fire maybe I heard about that on your west of Memphis coverage,

Gillian (she/her) 6:53

Probably.

Anne 6:54

yeah, I I didn't know that they had actually managed to retrieve that evidence. That's great.

Gillian (she/her) 6:58

exactly where it should have been. They just lied about it. and so after years, I mean, and it was so wild, rewatching it today, it's always bizarre to rewatch it. but it starts with, That drive going over that bridge. Over the Mississippi River, like the welcome to Arkansas Sign. Like I drove that or Bob Ruff was behind the wheel. But I, you know, went with Bob Ruff and Zach Weaver from Truth and Justice, and I went to support Damien and Lori. They asked me to come because Judge Tanya Alexander was supposed to hear arguments about the DNA testing. And we went down there in June of 2022 and we were all treated terribly. Bob and I have talked about it at length in our respective podcast, but she didn't hear anything. It was supposed to be a hearing. Bob raised money for experts and things for her to hear. They didn't let anybody in the courtroom. Suddenly they cared about COVID. And one of the, the cops was like, We never, I don't even know where these masks came from. We never had masks down here. made us all stand out in the, the absolute sweltering, lot on the concrete. We couldn't sit under a tree even. We had to just wait. And she didn't hear anybody. She just pulled a fast one and, she was awful. And we all stayed in Memphis, Tennessee because no one wanted to be in Arkansas for any longer than we had to. It's about 20 minutes away from the courthouse. And so crossing that bridge, like over the Mississippi River, welcome to Arkansas. That exact opening scene. surreal and it, might be because of how close I am to the case and, Damon and the lawyer, my family, I was texting with them. I was like, literally like BRBI have to talk about someone's ganglia ass for an hour, but I'll be right back. and or you know, maybe it was because of why we were there. 'cause we knew the weight of it was so heavy. But I'm, I'm telling you, you can feel the air change as you're crossing from Memphis, Tennessee to West Memphis, Arkansas. a heavy place.

Caroline 8:35

It must have

Anne 8:36

Can you,

Caroline 8:37

cousin, Vinny, for you to.

Gillian (she/her) 8:38

100. Yeah. You blend like a hundred percent. A hundred percent.

Anne 8:43

well, you mentioned that you are friends with Damon and Lori, and that you're very close to this case. How did that happen? Can you tell us your journey?

Gillian (she/her) 8:50

Sure, sure, sure. So I met them, God 15 about, or 14 years ago now right when Damien had gotten out of prison. And I had, of course followed the case. We met in, January and my husband and I had gotten married the December before. And so my birthday is December, it's the winter solstice. Damien's birthday is in December. My anniversary's in December and their anniversary's in December. And so, December's a major thing for me and always has been. And I, I knew for, for Damien and I went up to Lori, I was there, you know, Mike wasn't there. He was actually outta town. And I just like went up to her and I told her that. I was like, you know, December's a really important thing and I, I just wanted to share that with you. And she grabbed my hand and said, you have to meet Damien. And we went out to dinner that night. then our friendship really grew. And, when they were in New York, we were, you know, hanging out all the time and not really talking about the case because they were happy to, know, they knew that. could talk to us about things like that. But our friendship really grew because like they were taking a little breather from getting exonerated for a minute, you know, they were just sort of living. Then they moved, uh, to Salem and we, we would spend like holidays with them there. And,

Anne 9:54

Massachusetts, Massachusetts. Salem's like my favorite place in the world. I used to spend every Halloween there because I have an uncle who lives there and we'd go to all the,

Gillian (she/her) 10:01

yeah,

Anne 10:01

know, reenactments and, actually was thinking we might wanna cover the Crucible in response to this.

Caroline 10:05

Oh, good idea.

Gillian (she/her) 10:06

that's what we were texting about just now, about maybe going up to Salem again together soon. 'cause they live New York again. But we were just like, that's what our plans were.

Anne 10:16

I could live in Salem. I love it.

Gillian (she/her) 10:17

it's great. We spent a Halloween there, like really unbelievable. And then, you know, as, I wasn't doing TCO yet,

Anne 10:24

Oh really? Oh, I thought you were already Okay.

Caroline 10:27

right. If it was that's been like eight, nine, I think the episode today, you and Patrick were talking about whether it was eight or nine years.

Gillian (she/her) 10:32

Yeah, that, that was not even like a thing. I wasn't a podcaster yet. I hadn't started the Hamel cast yet. We were just friends. when we started TCO, I, didn't talk to them about it, but I was like, we can't cover that. It's too close. I'm gonna get yelled at by listeners like, oh, she's too close. She, you know, she can't be objective or whatever. and so I was like, I think it's too close. We're not gonna do it. And then once I started working with them on the case, they were like, would you mind? And I was like, I didn't think you, oh yes. Of like, absolutely just for the sake of, you guys know, like you have to keep talking about these cases. No matter

Caroline 11:04

Yeah.

Gillian (she/her) 11:04

You can't let people forget. You can't let the importance go away. Like you have to keep talking about it. So I was like, happily. So we did two episodes and then Damien did like an interview. And so, After everything was starting to happen with the DNAA few years ago, I was using any microphone and any opportunity I could, talking to the press for them, working with Steve Braga, their lawyer. and over the last like year or two really been doing that, like being on Zooms with amazing Rachel Geyser. that's when I took the cigarette butt outta the ashtray.

Caroline 11:31

Mm-hmm.

Anne 11:32

Loved.

Gillian (she/her) 11:32

Um, she's incredible. I got to meet her in person at in when we were down there, but really being part of it because I'm like, let me use my. Microphone. What

Caroline 11:41

Mm-hmm.

Gillian (she/her) 11:42

am I doing this for if I can't team up with people like Bob Ruff or do you know, collaboration things or like reach out to the press. Like sometimes there's stuff they can't say, but I'll do it. I don't care. I'm not scared of, Sonia Haygood the prosecutor, she should be good, you know, she should to her word. so I just sort of got myself into this position where a couple followers or you know, like we have followers now and I can use this microphone in a way to actually get some good and put pressure on people to do the right thing after

Caroline 12:08

Yeah, Peter Jackson's partner, Fran had said, you know, all we can do is keep going. If we keep pounding on the wall, it will break because it must break. All things eventually break. I just thought that was an amazing quote and that's what you're doing. You know, and that's why I wanted to have you on to help with that.

Gillian (she/her) 12:23

No, thanks

Anne 12:23

Well, yeah,

Gillian (she/her) 12:24

for wanting to keep talking about it. It's so important,

Anne 12:27

and for letting us join the fight.

Caroline 12:29

Yeah, yeah.

Gillian (she/her) 12:30

we, we need every, everybody, so

Caroline 12:32

Wait, speaking of this, do you know Jacob Pits?

Gillian (she/her) 12:35

Yes.

Caroline 12:36

Okay, because I grew up with him. He was on my school bus.

Gillian (she/her) 12:38

met him one time. just an absolute cha. I, Mike and I ran into Lori on the show. We were like, like in Manhattan, we were all living here and she was with him.

Caroline 12:48

that's so funny.

Gillian (she/her) 12:49

he was huge in the case. Helping them in

Caroline 12:51

Yeah. Well, 'cause I, when I was watching it, and there was like a pan across the courtroom and I was like, oh, there's chicken pits, like

Gillian (she/her) 12:57

Yeah.

Caroline 12:57

right there. So I didn't even know that he was involved in, in this. But yeah, he, he's a very nice, nice guy. We grew up, on the same school bus and he's really funny too. He was a great actor.

Gillian (she/her) 13:07

is that?

Caroline 13:08

Yeah,

Gillian (she/her) 13:08

was great when we met. You know, that thing where you like run into a friend of yours on the, in the middle of the street and

Caroline 13:12

yeah.

Gillian (she/her) 13:13

somebody else? That's exactly what it was. so funny. But, yeah, there were a lot of things that were happening and, that famous, I think it's the season finale of, of later season of Dawson's Creek where, Pacey is making a plea for Joey in an airport. he just like picks up a receiver, you know, where it's like the whatever. Uh, and he said at the end of his thing he's like, oh, I love you and I always will. And, uh, that's all I got. Oh, and free the West Memphis three. So

Anne 13:36

don't think I ever caught that.

Caroline 13:38

Oh my gosh. That's incredible.

Gillian (she/her) 13:39

I think it's the season five finale, but to say that on like the big, you know, like all eyes were on the finale of like, are Joey and Pacey gonna get together and they use, you know, it's just cool little things like that. Once you know, you'll.

Caroline 13:50

Yeah.

Anne 13:50

You'll see it everywhere.

Caroline 13:51

and we are

Anne 13:52

Well, thank God for the celebrity advocates, because I don't think anyone would know, you know, if it weren't for this crowdsourcing, like Eddie Veder.

Gillian (she/her) 14:00

Oh, Eddie Better

Anne 14:01

I mean,

Gillian (she/her) 14:01

I love

Anne 14:02

can cause I would marry Eddie Veder.

Gillian (she/her) 14:03

I would marry him in a heartbeat.

Anne 14:05

Yeah. thank God for his velvet voice. Yeah,

Gillian (she/her) 14:07

love him. I love him. there's this, that beautiful song they play at the end satellite.

Anne 14:13

so good.

Gillian (she/her) 14:14

it's so good. And it's, about them, you know, like, and don't you worry, I believe your story. And so, oh my God. at the end of that track, if you listen to it on Spotify or wherever the minute he stops, the phone rings and you hear him go, like, he just sort of scoffs it like, like, or laughs you know, like, oh, what, like what timing? And when he picks up the phone, it's Lori

Anne 14:33

Oh, wow.

Gillian (she/her) 14:34

they kept Yeah. It's like this little sort of beautiful moment. But

Caroline 14:38

So great.

Gillian (she/her) 14:39

why is there a phone at the end of this gorgeous song? And because it was so perfect

Caroline 14:42

Yeah.

Gillian (she/her) 14:43

was the take that they used.

Anne 14:44

Was it Jason Baldwin wearing a Metallica t-shirt in his mugshot? I saw, met him wearing a Metallica t-shirt quite early on, and I feel like that was so serendipitous in that perhaps they wouldn't have been noticed and targeted if they didn't like this kind of music. But at the same time, it's liking this music that stopped them from rotting in prison forever because all these people in the industry got involved.

Gillian (she/her) 15:03

Yeah. You know, it was also Jerry Driver, who was dead, thank God. He was a really, really shitty cop who just had it out for Damien. And when they got to the scene and they found Stevie, Michael, and Christopher, the first thing he said was, well, he did it. Damien Knuckles finally somebody. So it started because Jerry Driver had it out. Damien and sort of then reverse engineered this whole thing. 'cause like, well, could he do one? could one person kill? So

Caroline 15:28

Mm-hmm.

Gillian (she/her) 15:28

of like, oh, well here's a weird kid and here's Jesse Ms. Kelly, who was in a different county, at a wrestling event with

Caroline 15:34

Right,

Gillian (she/her) 15:35

evidence and a sign-in sheet, but let's, you

Caroline 15:37

right.

Gillian (she/her) 15:37

that.

Caroline 15:38

He was the satanic expert, right?

Anne 15:41

Expert.

Gillian (she/her) 15:41

yeah,

Caroline 15:42

Yeah.

Gillian (she/her) 15:42

I'm the the occult

Caroline 15:43

Self, self-proclaimed expert.

15:45

Jerry was 1000% talking out of his ass of as if he'd infiltrated and witnessed satanic cults.

Gillian (she/her) 15:51

with zero research, zero education, all fear Moning.

Caroline 15:54

Yeah.

Gillian (she/her) 15:54

like the whole thesis of this case.

Anne 15:56

Do you think Jerry's the biggest villain here? There's a lot of villains I mean,

Gillian (she/her) 16:01

Gill's a big villain. Fogelman huge.

Caroline 16:04

Mm-hmm.

Gillian (she/her) 16:05

huge.

Caroline 16:06

It is hard to pick one

Anne 16:07

it's hard.

Caroline 16:08

okay, so

Gillian (she/her) 16:09

Scott

Caroline 16:10

yeah.

Gillian (she/her) 16:10

whose number I still have in my phone, even though he's not in office anymore.

16:13

It made me really mad that he was still at least saying he thought they were guilty.

Caroline 16:17

because

Anne 16:17

Yeah.

Caroline 16:18

like the villains that just keep. deflecting and, keeping the status quo.

Gillian (she/her) 16:23

and Judge Burnett who just, you know, they had to run a campaign elect him to a different seat. they were buying billboards, like

Caroline 16:30

Right?

Gillian (she/her) 16:31

so, like yay vote for Judge Burnett just to get him the hell away from this case.

Anne 16:35

made me so mad, like I'm so neutral. I just take what comes to me. and he felt so sorry for himself, like he's beaten over the head. what about the innocent guys in jail? And just the fact that he could not back off from that.

Gillian (she/her) 16:46

Right. You know, the three little boys who've been murdered. And it's like to see him sit in this documentary, talk about like, oh, people aren't mean to me, first of all, that's the gig. Deal with it. you have to make quote, difficult decisions. You're, you're not here to be liked. You're here to do the right thing.

Caroline 17:01

Mm-hmm.

Gillian (she/her) 17:02

not liked when you do the right thing. So I really don't give a shit how hard it's been for you.

Anne 17:06

It seems like a conflict of interest to have the old judge preside over his past fuckup. Right. Because nobody wants to admit that they fucked up and people dig in. And so, saying there's no newly discovered evidence. It's, and of course it's not that there's no new evidence, there never was evidence.

Caroline 17:21

I did give your episode of TCOA re-listen, and I was thinking about all the times when you guys were like, how did Amy get them to say this? Like, say the, the thing out loud. Like, I, I really haven't had time to go through all the boxes. It's like a lot of work, you know,

Gillian (she/her) 17:35

Amy, she's a gen, she's a genius. But like him saying like, Hmm. Just wondering if that's something

Caroline 17:41

mm-hmm.

Gillian (she/her) 17:41

say. Like

Caroline 17:42

Amazing.

Gillian (she/her) 17:43

that red light. That's the on light,

Caroline 17:45

I

Gillian (she/her) 17:45

recording.

Caroline 17:46

Ugh.

Anne 17:46

Fogelman was giving John Tanner vibes for me. He was the prosecutor of Eileen Waro. Have you watched that one?

Gillian (she/her) 17:53

yes,

Anne 17:53

both have that like eaten up from the outside emaciated evil look, he was the one who said Damien had no soul. And where's the evidence to back that like, that sort of statement should not be allowed in a court of law.

Gillian (she/her) 18:04

Yeah, and it's like they were all kids. All six of

Caroline 18:07

Right.

Gillian (she/her) 18:08

eight, 17, even 18, like they were just kids who were fucking going through it, some of them. And it's just so evil to this with no whatsoever. To sit and abuse Jesse, Ms. Kelly, like that.

Caroline 18:20

Yeah.

Gillian (she/her) 18:20

full well that there's no truth to anything that he's saying and knowing full well, and so clearly directing him to say what you want him to say. How do you live with yourself?

Caroline 18:30

I know

Anne 18:31

And did he?

Caroline 18:32

it was giving me, making the murder vibes well, Brendan, dsi, you know, all these people that are taking advantage of, and so little of the videotape is even used so little of the recording to defend their actions and,

Gillian (she/her) 18:44

Yeah, it's a playbook. They all do the same shit.

Anne 18:46

who was responsible for Michael Carson testifying because, he was basically told to lie. You know, he's the one that said Jason had sucked blood from their penises and you know, he was delusional. He was on LSD, but he's so apologetic in this. I don't blame him, I blame whoever put him up to that.

Gillian (she/her) 19:02

Mara Lever's, book devil's not, is excellent. There's a lot about the intricacies of. what happened in the courtroom. it's definitely a little outdated now. there are things we know and she's, she was the one who did the FOIA request to be like, there was no fire. So she's consistently on the right side of history. so I just give that as a little disclaimer. If you read it and you're like, oh, we know that that's not, and that, you know, she just, she did very good work and there's a lot of shady shit that went on to get certain things and convincing people and making promises and, you know, there are a lot of people in, in the town who could have used a clean slate or could have used some money or could have used a charge going away. And they manipulated that and used that against these people.

Caroline 19:45

Yeah, it

Anne 19:45

And then the knife.

Caroline 19:47

um,

Anne 19:48

Oh yeah, Jay? Yeah. and then the knife behind Jason's house in the river that they found in 30 minutes That makes me think evil Yeah, like I got it. Here's my smoking gun, my soaking wet knife.

Gillian (she/her) 20:01

yeah.

Anne 20:01

one of the things I think that Fogelman manipulates is playing to that fear of the audience, that satanism is scary. So I think let's talk a little bit about context and the setting here. You know, and you mentioned the money, the low socioeconomic area, where people are going to be very tempted by that $35,000 reward money.

Gillian (she/her) 20:22

I

Anne 20:22

Uh.

Gillian (she/her) 20:23

did. Satan wants you on the regular feed for TCO, which was sort of the beginning of Satanic panic, and the fact that the crime is just so vile and heartbreaking and the fact that they would use that these three innocent boys, which they were, however, to use that as like, these innocent angels true versus these three evil like three and three, you know what I mean? They were trying to sort of do this reverse bizarro evil mirror image of like these three perfect innocent boys versus these three evil. who Damien

Anne 20:55

um, Fogelman,

Gillian (she/her) 20:56

Jesse,

Anne 20:56

yeah, didn't fogelman allow in like, testimony from another occult expert who said that the reason it was three murders was because that's like a distillation of 6, 6, 6, the devil's number. So there's all this bullshit testimony that got allowed in, but yet they wouldn't allow in somebody who was an expert on, polygraph tests or false confessions that was blocked.

Gillian (she/her) 21:15

And like at the beginning of Satanic panic, we see this very famous, Amy Berg uses it in the documentary, this very famous like. that was made for law enforcement to be like, eh, like there's like this growl in the background. It's like, how does Spot Satanic panic in your town? Or like, how does Spot Satan is in your town? And everyone was an expert, but these experts did like a weekend seminar by some other fucking idiot who doesn't know anything about anything. So it's like it was just instant, like everyone was so reactive to this idea that there were these satanists killing and eating and abusing kids. In the woods and it's like based on what? Like

Caroline 21:50

Um,

Gillian (she/her) 21:50

all of these people? Like the Satanic panic started because this woman was severely manipulated by her psychiatrist and her story is that her mother handed her off to a Satanic cult to be abused. And there are all of these people. And then all of these other people in the world went on, Sally, Jesse, Raphael, and Geraldo and all of these things. And they were like that. Me too. I was also in a cult and it's like, where is everyone else in the cult then?

Caroline 22:11

right.

Gillian (she/her) 22:11

hasn't anyone been arrested? What are you talking? You're murdering children in the woods and no one has been caught. There's no evidence of it ever. But like you are getting your 15 minutes on the six o'clock news. none of it made any sense, but everyone fucking ran with it. It's crazy.

Caroline 22:26

actually just

Anne 22:26

Michelle remembers.

Caroline 22:27

yeah. So Sarah Marshall, who's in, Satan wants you and who we have covered before on, you're wrong about. She has a podcast called The Devil, you know, and I'm about three episodes into that. And it's all about Michelle and about her therapist. And she interviews the therapist's ex-wife, and one of Michelle's siblings. It's really good. but yeah, I, I kept being like, where are these people whose babies are missing, supposedly that were sacrificed? what happened to them? Because the last, episode we've recorded was sugar cane. And so we have covered, the residential schools and, those are the families that are like, my baby was taken, or I was a taken baby, or I was the result of assault. there are people standing in front of you being like, this happened to me, this happened to my family. I just, I've never seen a person being like, Satan has took my baby, and here's the baby's birth certificate and here's the date the baby went missing. know?

Gillian (she/her) 23:18

then like nothing happens to the person. Like there would be like a woman on

Caroline 23:21

Right.

Gillian (she/her) 23:22

I, I gave birth to a baby, and then I murdered it. And it's

Caroline 23:25

Right,

Gillian (she/her) 23:25

you walking up? Oh. 'cause there's no evidence to

Caroline 23:28

right,

Gillian (she/her) 23:28

and you know, like with the residential schools too, that's another fucking atrocity. But like, there's evidence of that because they would actually list babies in the newspaper to see like who wanted to quote save there is evidence of it. And also because like colonizers strike again, like history's repeating itself, but there was actual evidence of it that you could point to

Anne 23:48

So many of those children ended up in abusive situations, but probably not ritualistically murdered in the woods.

Caroline 23:53

No,

Anne 23:54

No.

Caroline 23:54

not. Yeah.

Anne 23:55

Categorically, yeah, probably is the wrong word.

Gillian (she/her) 23:57

by a 16-year-old, a 17-year-old, and an the 17-year-old was in a different county.

Anne 24:01

that's insane. people were whipped up into a frenzy about this stuff and there were a couple murderers who did, use satanic symbolism like Richard Ramirez, that happened. But it doesn't mean that there was actually this grand conspiracy where like hundreds of people were doing it,

Gillian (she/her) 24:15

No. And

Anne 24:16

a couple.

Gillian (she/her) 24:17

don't even believe in that. They're a, they're, you know what I mean? They're like, if you, it's just a buzzword. And Richard Ramirez didn't actually believe in any

Anne 24:24

He wasn't a true satist. Yeah,

Caroline 24:26

forget who said it, but somebody mentions do we call it a Christian murder just because there's a Bible present,

Gillian (she/her) 24:32

Right.

Anne 24:32

so true.

Gillian (she/her) 24:33

Yeah. 'cause that would get uncomfortable real quick. People

Caroline 24:35

Seriously.

Gillian (she/her) 24:37

would not like that.

Anne 24:38

just in reference to the context, there were some fun eighties and nineties references. Do you remember LA Gear? Terry Hops has LA Gear shoes, and I was like,

Gillian (she/her) 24:46

he's

Anne 24:46

had LA gear.

Gillian (she/her) 24:48

Everything he touches turns to shit.

Anne 24:50

I know. Now it's ruined. Yeah, I think I have bad taste because I have the same sneakers as the Heaven Skate Cult. And now I,

Gillian (she/her) 24:58

No way.

Anne 24:59

I do, I,

Caroline 25:00

taste.

Anne 25:01

I have cards.

Gillian (she/her) 25:02

a broken clock is right twice a day. It's not you. It's not you. You have the good taste.

Anne 25:07

And Stevie had a, a view master. Do you remember a view master? There's Stevie had the laser background on his school photos, which I was always jealous of because my parents wouldn't let me have it.

Gillian (she/her) 25:15

They wouldn't let you.

Anne 25:16

It cost more, just like the generic blue background.

Gillian (she/her) 25:20

one.

Anne 25:20

Yeah. Well, let's talk about the people in a little bit more depth here. as you said before, three sweet baby angels who were murdered. Sometimes that gets forgotten that these babies who should be roughly our age today, were murdered. And it is a, as the one good judge said, a tragedy on all sides. Is he actually good? Right? I mean, he looks good, but I don't know. You might know more than I do.

Gillian (she/her) 25:40

you know, he has, he hasn't really been like the people you wanna stick around the case,

Caroline 25:44

Mm.

Gillian (she/her) 25:45

I mean? Like, he just hasn't, you know, Burnett forced himself to stay on it and this guy did the right thing and he's like off doing the right thing again.

Caroline 25:51

Yeah.

Gillian (she/her) 25:52

but I thought that was so moving of Eddie Vetter saying like, he didn't have to say that.

Anne 25:55

Yeah.

Gillian (she/her) 25:56

say all that

Caroline 25:56

Yeah,

Anne 25:57

Okay. well let's talk about, one of the biggest victims in this, other than, the three murdered children is Damien Eckles. he's a man after my own heart because he prefers winter and he's a Stephen king fan. yeah, so he's a constant reader. So if that makes you guilty of a crime, I am too. And yeah, he's basically Eddie from Stranger Things, and I looked it up. The Duffer Brothers said that Damien is a direct inspiration for Eddie.

Gillian (she/her) 26:17

Yep.

Caroline 26:18

Is so cool. Eddie is the

Anne 26:19

Did you see the other connections? Will Byers?

Caroline 26:22

Yes.

Anne 26:23

And the counselor in season four is called Ms. Kelly,

Gillian (she/her) 26:25

Is

Anne 26:26

so yeah.

Gillian (she/her) 26:26

Stranger Things season four.

Anne 26:27

Ms. Kelly. Yeah.

Gillian (she/her) 26:28

Oh wow.

Anne 26:29

I was wondering like, what led Jerry Driver to have such a hard on for Damian? I was listening to a couple different interviews with him. I listened to yours, Jillian, and then I listened to Caroline. You'll know why. Last podcast on the left.

Caroline 26:41

I knew it.

Anne 26:41

And they have quite a bit of, good insight on this because they are like former goth kids into heavy metal and Henry Saboski is a satanist in the Anton LaVey sort of way as opposed to, the way Damien was accused to being one. So yeah, I think he was just like a troubled kid who crafted a dark persona because he had a tough upbringing, and drew Pentagrams that doesn't mean you murdered someone.

Gillian (she/her) 27:02

you know, he, he he could quote the Bible too. He still can,

Anne 27:05

He seems so smart,

Gillian (she/her) 27:07

he is,

Anne 27:07

so articulate, knows so much.

Gillian (she/her) 27:09

And he's just curious about everything. So he's so much more well-rounded than anyone gave him any credit for back then. It's also just, a total, just being so stigmatized with any kind of mental health. Anything that made anyone uncomfortable that like you couldn't solve by throwing someone in the drunk tank or throwing handcuffs on them was really scary to these like really teeny, tiny insecure men who only became law enforcement so that they can feel important and bully people and do horrible things. I always say this on TCO, like, the whole motto is protected serve. Like, you know that, right? That's what law enforcement is supposed to do. But law enforcement doesn't do that for the most part. and you know, I was, I was kind of on a little bit of a rant the other day on TCO, but I was thinking like. at this point, if your response to me saying like that it's systemic and the whole thing needs to be burned down, if your response is like, well, my uncle's a good one, I don't care,

Caroline 28:01

Mm-hmm.

Gillian (she/her) 28:02

If that's your response, where are all of these good apples? I don't understand. 'cause I'm only seeing the bad ones. And the rest of that phrase is one bad apple spoils the bunch. So you know, it's, gotten so much bigger. But I think back then he was a medium sized fish in a teeny tiny pond. Jerry Driver, he's, he was nothing. And I think it was something he didn't understand and it was uncomfortable. And so Just, you know, mental health at all. it's wildly unfair. Jerry struck me as like a guy who would be on four chan in his basement now his mother's basement. The thing that is so frustrating even now, it's like, none of the old guard is here anymore. So what is the problem? why doesn't anyone wanna be a hero? Sonia Haygood? Like, why did it take you so long to make good on this? what is the delay? What is the bullshit? And I, I don't lean into conspiracy theories, but it makes you feel conspiratorial. how deep does this shit go? What are they hiding that this new prosecutor or this new chief of police or whoever doesn't wanna say, I wasn't here for that shit. I'm gonna make good. Finally,

Anne 28:59

I mean, they've already got egg on their face, so like why not fix it? Why not test that DNA now?

Gillian (she/her) 29:04

And they just keep making it worse. Like the shit that Tanya Alexander pulled in 2022 was absolutely disgusting. The total bait and switch, we all went down there. Bob Ruff raised money to get all of these studies done and all of these experts and fly people down there. And she didn't let anybody in and she didn't like, we all had to wait outside except for like Damien and Lori and their lawyers, and she just wouldn't hear anything she like deliberately misinterpreted the law. She was citing like where a comma was placed and she basically was saying that because Damien wasn't in the prison walls, he has no right to demand evidence, be tested. first of all, that could have been, that meeting could have been a fucking email, but two, like it feels so deliberate and personal. Like we all went down there, you know, how much it took, the money, the expertise, all of this stuff. Like we were ready to go and to just play dumb or to just use the law to deliberately the law to your own benefit is like, what are all these people doing here? it's like the, those teachers who hate kids, why are you here? Do another job.

Caroline 30:03

Yeah.

Anne 30:04

so when you are saying you're going down to Memphis to talk to these judges, this is to get the DNA tested on the shoelaces with the new technology, right? Is or is there something else you're trying to get tested?

Gillian (she/her) 30:14

there are other things, but yes, when we went down there, we were, yes. when I say we, I just mean like them. I

Anne 30:19

the whole fighting the good fight.

Gillian (she/her) 30:21

I'm in

Anne 30:22

Yeah.

Gillian (she/her) 30:22

to argue in front of a judge. I'm just saying I

Caroline 30:24

Yeah.

Anne 30:25

Yeah. You're not the lawyer there, but yeah, I mean,

Gillian (she/her) 30:27

myself up to make myself

Caroline 30:28

No, no, no, no.

Gillian (she/her) 30:29

I, just so you guys know, like that's not what I'm

Anne 30:31

well, yeah. I mean, I listened to an American scandal, like six parter on this and Lindsey Graham points out that by not allowing this sort of testing, they are aiding and abetting the true perpetrator. Because if we all accept that Memphis three did not do this, why wouldn't a prosecutor want that? whether that person is Terry Hobbes or somebody else, a killer is on the streets.

Gillian (she/her) 30:49

Right, because the testing that was done says that Damien and Jesse and Jason were not in that DNA, so their DNA is not there.

Anne 30:56

They're excluded,

Gillian (she/her) 30:57

So what Damien and Jason and Jesse want is to find out whose DNA is there because they are walking around, is convicted child murderers today.

Anne 31:05

Yeah.

Gillian (she/her) 31:05

but they're not exonerated

Caroline 31:07

Right.

Anne 31:07

And if they did it, they wouldn't want the DNA a tested. Right. Like, I listened to an interview with Terry Hobbs actually,

Gillian (she/her) 31:13

Uhhuh.

Anne 31:14

on, uh, what was it called? It was like, It was some podcast.

Gillian (she/her) 31:16

So

Anne 31:17

oh

Gillian (she/her) 31:17

as someone who just doesn't wanna talk about it anymore, will

Anne 31:19

no, he's done a lot of interviews.

Gillian (she/her) 31:21

about it.

Anne 31:22

Yeah,, like he's out there talking and he was obnoxious on it because he's very much playing the good dad, like he's saying he wouldn't have let his kid go out biking that day, like he wouldn't have let him go out as far as out to Michael's house, he's blaming Pam for letting him go, saying that he took the pocket knife. He says the laundry story's a lie. He says, Amanda is fine, which I don't believe.

Gillian (she/her) 31:40

lying.

Anne 31:41

Yeah. He says Pam turned on him because she wanted to get back together and that this whole believing he did it is because she's a jilted woman, basically. Like he was obnoxious but

Gillian (she/her) 31:51

are these

Anne 31:51

the house.

Gillian (she/her) 31:52

platform.

Caroline 31:53

yeah. I know.

Anne 31:55

But she asked if they reopen the case, would you cooperate? And I think she was getting at, would you submit your DNA? And he was like, I have no reason to cooperate. Which really contrasts with what the West Memphis three are saying. They're like, we'll do it right.

Caroline 32:07

Why wouldn't you have reason to cooperate?

Anne 32:09

You're,

Caroline 32:10

Yeah.

Anne 32:11

it's our opinion.

Gillian (she/her) 32:13

we're talking about a person who sued Natalie Mains

Caroline 32:16

Right,

Gillian (she/her) 32:17

that that meant he'd also have to be deposed. This

Caroline 32:19

right.

Gillian (she/her) 32:20

we're dealing with, someone who broke into a woman's home in her shower and sexually assaulted her. We're talking

Anne 32:25

Gross.

Gillian (she/her) 32:25

who shot Pam Hobbes's brother, and he ended up dying. so because he

Anne 32:31

And he was physically abusive of Stevie, right? Like he admits to.

Caroline 32:35

And that neighbor lady.

Gillian (she/her) 32:36

Yeah, Mildred French.

Caroline 32:38

Yes.

Gillian (she/her) 32:38

Pam says she was, a punching bag. You and if you watch any of that deposition, it's very long. I mean, it's all I there 'cause it's, it's all public the smirking, the laughing, the fact that he, no, no, this doesn't mean anything to me. I don't care. He thinks he's such hot shit. This is not a mourning father who felt this personal attack by the big bad Natalie Maines of the chicks and all of this bullshit. No, he's not even good at the lie when it counts. Do you know what I mean?

Caroline 33:04

Mm-hmm.

Gillian (she/her) 33:05

he's full of shit. He's a violent, abusive person who should not be given a microphone anymore.

Anne 33:10

And guess what? He still believes they did it.

Gillian (she/her) 33:12

You know, when people tell themselves a lie so much, they start to believe it. I don't

Caroline 33:15

Right.

Gillian (she/her) 33:15

there or if he's just trying to get himself some good press, which I think is impossible. my opinion.

Caroline 33:19

His suing Natalie Mains also reminded me of, you know, originally when you so graciously offered us your time. I mentioned that I was thinking about the jinx for you because I love your rubber durst impression, but, the whole suing her and then putting himself in the hot seat made me think about every time that you guys were like, remember, we are all here Because Robert Durst saw a movie called All Good Things, and he reached out to Andrew Jackie.

Gillian (she/her) 33:43

for a documentary to be made about him,

Anne 33:45

Ugh,

Gillian (she/her) 33:45

that is the truth.

Caroline 33:46

I, uh,

Gillian (she/her) 33:47

for it,

Caroline 33:47

insane.

Anne 33:49

narcissism.

Caroline 33:49

Exactly.

Anne 33:50

narcissism will come back to bite him.

Caroline 33:52

I

Anne 33:52

Yeah.

Gillian (she/her) 33:52

a hell of a drug.

Anne 33:53

Now on one of the interviews I saw with Damien, I can't remember if it was yours or last podcast on the left. somebody asked him, do you think Terry did it? Or who do you think did it? And he said he suspects somebody that hasn't really had a lot of attention. and he also points out that we have to be cautious about flying off the handle and just going down the, well, Terry did it, or John Mark Byers did it because they can get railroaded too, Like, I think Terry Hobbs is a piece of shit, right? But we have to be cautious about, you know, actually having evidence. Right?

Gillian (she/her) 34:20

it. Let's, let's find the truth.

Anne 34:21

Yeah.

Gillian (she/her) 34:22

that.

Anne 34:22

Are there any other suspects that you know about?

Gillian (she/her) 34:24

There are some people that I can't, necessarily talk about and things that were, roads that we were going down in terms of our research. Over the last year or so, going through old names and documents and trying to piece some things together. but case, in my opinion, is all about the DNA it's a long time ago, people move on, people forget evidence, you know, papers are lost. You can't prove who was where and what. But there, there are definitely some other shady things that were going on with law enforcement in that time. There are other people who were questioned and then said really insane things and then never discussed again or looked into. so at this point, the motivation wa, during our research was be ready for anything and everything. if the DNA comes back and it's. This direction, then don't have to start from scratch,

Anne 35:15

Follow the evidence rather than hysteria and hearsay, which is what happened too.

Gillian (she/her) 35:19

right. To just see, you know, go through, 20-year-old emails and try to piece things together and with the hindsight that we have or what is being tested or, or whatever. Just to see, like, to not lose momentum it's the hurry up and wait. I mean, this DNA was supposed to be tested like three years ago and it just,

Anne 35:37

What takes so long?

Gillian (she/her) 35:37

I I wish I knew the answer. I really do. 'cause it feels like two plus two is. Orange. Like I don't understand. Like it makes no sense. and so the thing is to just be able to keep moving no matter what. So there's no one is gonna have blinders on for the sake of disliking a person personally or thinking that they did bad things, which knowing that they did bad things. But we gotta be ready to go at a moments notice no matter who it's, cause we

Anne 35:59

I think it's important.

Caroline 36:00

Right.

Anne 36:01

I think it's important to talk about what Damien went through in prison he talks about the horrors of solitary confinement and not being able to see those guards for see anyone but guards who were abusive, the impact that had on his brain, his memory, his eyesight. describes it as starving to death on the soul level. is there anything you wanna add to that about what he experienced?

Gillian (she/her) 36:21

it's completely. Inhumane. I know some people struggle with conversations because they think well, if they're in there, they're bad, and that's not true. the prison system isn't built to rehabilitate anybody. And it should be, it's really gotta be burned down and redone with a great many things. Many systems need that, but you know, it's meant to destroy a person. And so

Anne 36:44

make a profit

Gillian (she/her) 36:45

and make a profit Of

Anne 36:46

capitalism all along, quoting you're wrong about again.

Gillian (she/her) 36:48

course. the reason I just cannot believe in the death penalty. And if I were to shove it on someone, why you should be against it. my reasoning is very simple. You have to be a hundred percent correct a hundred percent of the time, and that's just not possible. It's just

Anne 37:01

Yeah,

Gillian (she/her) 37:02

but that aside though, solitary confinement is completely And for him to be there for over 10 years is, it's core, it's it completely evil thing to do. And the only reason they stopped abusing him is because a priest overheard what was happening and said, if you don't stop, I'm going public. And that's how they stopped. that priest saved his life. 'cause they would've killed him one way or another. And Damien says that all the time, and it's hard to hear him say. It's hard for me to say, it's hard for me to quote him. But they were gonna kill him one way or the other.

Anne 37:33

He has to wear sunglasses now because his eyes aren't used to light. When I saw him coming out wearing sunglasses, I thought like Johnny Depp bought him some fancy sunglasses because it looked like he was like, but then I was like,

Gillian (she/her) 37:41

but no.

Anne 37:43

and so he has to wear them all the time right I would've never thought of that as an impact.

Gillian (she/her) 37:47

but he's actually an, he's an excellent driver. He just has special prescription glasses now that he wears 'cause he was reading all the time. 'cause he's curious

Anne 37:55

he could do. Yeah.

Gillian (she/her) 37:56

And he wanted to read all kinds of things, you know, so,

Anne 37:58

I thought it was interesting. On last podcast on the left, they asked him, are you a better person because of this? And he says that given the life he was plucked out of, in some ways, obviously there are other ways to have a better life, but in some ways it saved him.

Gillian (she/her) 38:10

Mm-hmm.

Anne 38:11

so well read. He's got Lori, he's a force for justice now. So I thought that was really brave to say and admirable because I feel like I would just be so full of rage. And maybe he is too. But he seems really surprisingly grounded.

Gillian (she/her) 38:26

Yeah, super funny.

Anne 38:27

Yeah.

Gillian (she/her) 38:28

he's just a fascinating person and so is Lori. Lori is, is an angel on this earth, and I will not be taking questions on that. No, she just is, she's a, she's an exceptional person. Person even feels not right we're just mere mortals and we get to exist while Lori's here.

Anne 38:43

Yeah. I mean, she was so

Caroline 38:44

it felt like it was amazing watching how she just gave up her life really, to fight this injustice and to be supportive. And I Like Annie said, they're both incredibly brave and admirable.

Gillian (she/her) 38:56

Being,

Anne 38:57

You go ahead.

Gillian (she/her) 38:57

behind curtain, so to speak a little bit, and being able to work with Steve Bragga and, Lori, and doing all of this research, it's really unbelievable. It's like what Eddie Vetter said, where it's like, if I knew four years into this, how long it was gonna take. you see the, endless, and it's very clear, like the endless, the roadblocks and the red tape and the corruption and, and all of that. But when you're in it, and like I just say to her like, Lori, It's exhausting. It's been 30 years. Isn't that crazy?

Caroline 39:25

It's crazy.

Anne 39:26

I'm really impressed too that it seems like they're solid, because like if you've had, say, a decade or so of a relationship where one person is behind bars, you've got this strong sense of purpose. Lori talks about being weaponized to get him out, and so the dynamic is. Built up around that then you're out. Right? And it's probably this sense of like, well, what now? You know, like an ego montoya after, slaying the six fingered man. Like, well, what do I do now? And Damien talks about those first two years being really awful for him and the culture shock of being out of prison. So you know that not only was she able to stick with him through this extraordinarily difficult time getting out, but after the fact too, when the dynamic has changed.

Gillian (she/her) 40:04

Yeah. And you know, I'm not telling any tales outta school here and I never would. She talked about it on, the episode of Let the Women Do the Work. cause I said, if I'm doing a podcast, Lori has to be the first episode of Let the

Anne 40:14

Hmm.

Gillian (she/her) 40:14

I'm not doing it she has to start that. But she has been very vocal about how it has not been easy every single day. There have been very dark times, obviously dark times in the world. people would go through darkness if they didn't go through what they went through. And so on top of that, you know, they've been very honest about. Working through it, but they have always, from the very beginning and just about everything is, they see the end of it. they see the end game. they never say if it's when always. And they've always, always acted like that. And they walk the walk and they talk, the talk about everything. That's just how they are. They just trust and they believe and they work incredibly hard. But at their core, like when they know something and they trust and believe in something, then they can't be shaken And it's incredibly admirable witness and have it rub off on you a little bit to be around those kind of people, that kind of relationship and just sort of that whole perspective on the world 30 years. To just be like, it's the best way possible. It's gonna work out the best way possible. Whatcha gonna do, there's nothing you can do about it today. It's, it's the best way possible.

Anne 41:18

I thought it was interesting that they both do uniforms. Damien said they each have like 10 of the exact same shirts and pants, and they just like, don't have to think about clothes like Obama. He did that with his suit.

Gillian (she/her) 41:26

That's exactly right. Yeah.

Anne 41:27

I, I would love to do that, but my students would notice and be like, miss, you're wearing the same thing every day.

Caroline 41:31

You know, it's one of the things I miss about living in New York is essentially, everything in your closet is black, and usually you can get away with that. And when you move out to the suburbs, people are, it's not, it's not exactly the same.

Gillian (she/her) 41:42

What they, they do some double takes. Come on, lighten up everybody.

Caroline 41:46

Yeah. I might be accused of satanic worship.

Gillian (she/her) 41:48

Hey.

Anne 41:48

Yeah. Well, let's talk about Jason for a bit because you don't see as much from him in the documentary. first question, if you were in prison for 18 years, what would your first meal be and why would it not be room service? Caesar salad?

Gillian (she/her) 42:02

I love Caesar salad. I know.

Anne 42:04

Would it be your first meal?

Gillian (she/her) 42:05

Uh, I not to take all the fun out of it, but I think you're just so malnourished.

Caroline 42:09

Yeah.

Gillian (she/her) 42:10

like a really like indulgent

Anne 42:13

you crave a salad.

Gillian (she/her) 42:13

or like after, being home for Christmas break or whatever, where it's like everything I've had is like fried and brown and delicious and carbs,

Caroline 42:20

Oh yeah.

Gillian (she/her) 42:21

know what I would kill for right now, Um

Anne 42:24

enough, fair enough.

Gillian (she/her) 42:25

has to be with like a creamy dressing obviously. 'cause I'm not that, you know, like, I'm not

Caroline 42:29

Yeah.

Gillian (she/her) 42:29

the like, gimme the ranch or gimme the

Anne 42:31

You are not gonna do the green goddess dressing

Gillian (she/her) 42:33

No. I mean, if it's a creamy, sure. If it's like a

Anne 42:36

with avocado. Yeah,

Gillian (she/her) 42:37

But like Right, right, right. It's gotta be a little like gimme a little something. yeah. What would my first meal be after getting out? God. Probably like just the best slice of pizza. Like

Anne 42:47

I

Caroline 42:48

I, say pizza. I was thinking artichoke because that's what I

Anne 42:51

artichoke.

Caroline 42:52

at the end of the night at the bars, I would get dropped off at artichoke and eat that pizza and the walk home

Anne 42:57

Oh, artichoke is a pizza place.

Caroline 42:59

yeah.

Anne 43:00

Oh, I thought you were saying you would eat an artichoke and I was like, that's disgusting.

Caroline 43:04

it's,

Gillian (she/her) 43:04

they're like, the slices are like this. they're like casserole. They're huge. They're not like, you know how, I love Chicago deep dish pizza, but it's not like, that's why I don't understand the whole, like, New York pizza's better than Chicago pizza. They're apples and oranges. They're

Caroline 43:15

yeah.

Gillian (she/her) 43:16

different

Caroline 43:16

One is a casserole.

Anne 43:17

Okay.

Gillian (she/her) 43:18

takes five minutes and they tell you when you

Caroline 43:19

Yeah.

Gillian (she/her) 43:20

You know, like I, but I love them both. I just like,

Caroline 43:22

Yeah.

Gillian (she/her) 43:23

is wide enough. I don't, you know, Detroit pizza too, it's all different. But when you picture like a New York slice that you can like fold and eat, like no, no, no. Artichoke is enormous, enormous, super creamy, super heavy. It's like a, white cream sauce. It's totally not what you're thinking of.

Caroline 43:38

Yeah,

Gillian (she/her) 43:38

image it and you'll be like, whoa, what the hell is this? It's

Anne 43:41

Artichoke pizza. Okay. Not pizza with artichokes. Got it.

Caroline 43:44

it

Anne 43:44

think I would do a Korean barbecue. That's

Caroline 43:46

Ooh, that's good

Anne 43:47

favorite.

Gillian (she/her) 43:47

Wow.

Anne 43:48

Because it just keeps coming, but it's also kind of healthy, right? Like, so you can get some good stuff in there, some veggies and, and um, some microbiotics with all the, um, kimchi, which your stomach would need after 18 years in jail.

Caroline 43:59

Yeah.

Gillian (she/her) 43:59

my God.

Anne 44:00

I mean, I think about with Jason I was so nervous he was going to, wasn't gonna take the Alfred plea, you know, and when he was waffling and I was like, please get Eddie Veder on the phone with him, because no one will say no to him. I'm like, just take the plea. But I dunno. Would you take it?

Gillian (she/her) 44:12

Yes.

Anne 44:12

Yes, I think so too.

Gillian (she/her) 44:14

here's the thing. I think the Alfred plea is a fucking travesty. However,

Anne 44:18

Yes.

Gillian (she/her) 44:18

might be weird to hear because, it's gotten people out, but it's not fair. and it's also not universal. Like we've covered a lot of other cases where, the Alfred plea will be offered, but it's a different the terms are always different. So it's sort of, it can be manipulated in, in a lot of ways. So I hate the Alfred plea. I'm grateful that it was used in this way, but I, I do understand, like, how dare you say, because then when you're taking the Alfred plea, you also have to say this stupid bullshit line that there's enough evidence to convict me, which is just categorically, definitively untrue

Caroline 44:50

Right,

Gillian (she/her) 44:50

case.

Anne 44:51

so they were compromising for time, which is life.

Gillian (she/her) 44:54

right. And you know, Damien was incredibly sick and,

Caroline 44:57

Right?

Gillian (she/her) 44:57

it was now or never. And it, sucks. I don't blame at all for, in that moment being like, wait, what's Like, we, and with having distance from it, it obviously looks a million times worse for the state than it does for those men. that they were too scared

Caroline 45:12

Yeah.

Gillian (she/her) 45:13

move

Caroline 45:13

To try it again.

Gillian (she/her) 45:14

And

Caroline 45:14

Yeah.

Anne 45:15

Yeah.

Gillian (she/her) 45:15

any evidence since, like, Hmm, who's suspicious there?

Caroline 45:18

Right.

Anne 45:18

Well instead of the Alfred plea, there should be a faster moving system of justice for people in this situation so that they aren't pushed into this, deal with the devil.

Gillian (she/her) 45:27

should be justice at all,

Anne 45:29

Yeah. He's really strong though. Like he was offered a deal to testify against Damien and he wouldn't take it right. Like. So he stayed very strong throughout and for like a 16-year-old kid. To be that strong, I think is just really speaks to his morality.

Gillian (she/her) 45:40

yeah. And I think they get a lot of shit like Damien, especially like, how he was like flipping people off and laughing and whatever. It's like, first of all, he was 18 and like a

Anne 45:49

I know kids like that.

Caroline 45:50

Yeah.

Gillian (she/her) 45:50

and when you didn't. Do it

Caroline 45:53

Right,

Gillian (she/her) 45:54

of it. It feels that you're gonna get convicted of this thing. I

Anne 45:59

Yeah.

Gillian (she/her) 45:59

there's no like, I didn't do it. So like feel, I can understand why you could feel a little cocky being like, fucking come at me bro. I didn't do this. And you can't prove it. Which is, I, he didn't do it. They didn't prove it yet. He was convicted. So,

Anne 46:11

I was listening to this podcast about false confessions with, I think it was Saul Cassen who wrote some book about it, and he was saying, and this feels so obvious, but that being innocent is a major, Factor in being wrongly convicted because an innocent person is more likely to not take their Miranda rights, not ask for a lawyer. An innocent person is more likely to actually confess because they just wanna get out of the room and they know there's no evidence against them. So they'll be like, we'll just work it out later. So like how being innocent can contribute to making that false confession.

Caroline 46:39

Yeah. And Jesse says that he was gonna tell the police the truth because he thought the police were there to help. And my son doesn't believe that. he's,

Gillian (she/her) 46:46

No, they can legally

Caroline 46:47

he's, he's, 12 and I remember when he turned 10 telling him, because he, even, wanted to be a police officer for Halloween more than once. when they're young, like, fine, it's okay. but then I remember when he turned 10 that I was like, I just want you to know that they're not your friends actually. And if they ask you any questions about anything that you've done, the only thing you say is lawyer. And I, I so appreciate Jillian, that you guys hammer that home all the time. when I took a law class in college. That was also the first thing he said to us in grad school because he was like, especially people from more upper middle class communities, like really super believe that the police are there to help you because you've never witnessed anything else from them, in these sheltered communities. So you really are at risk for being taken advantage of. So just a lawyer.

Gillian (she/her) 47:35

they will lie to you. never speak with them without a lawyer. Ever. No matter,

Caroline 47:39

Mm-hmm.

Gillian (she/her) 47:39

if you're innocent, never take a polygraph. 'cause they'll use it against you. They can't, it's not admissible in court, especially if you're innocent, because then you'll probably be nervous and then you'll probably

Caroline 47:47

Right. I would never pass one no matter what. I just have high anxiety. I just, no, I wouldn't pass.

Anne 47:52

I look guilty even when I'm innocent and not lying. I'd like laugh nervously and stuff like that. Yeah.

Gillian (she/her) 47:58

do you guys watch the traders?

Caroline 48:00

No. I need to watch that.

Gillian (she/her) 48:01

Okay. I. Was really turned off this last season with this Colton guy who was on some show The Bachelor or something, but he's like a convicted stalker, whatever.

Caroline 48:08

Hmm.

Gillian (she/her) 48:09

when it was like fun and it would be like, would you be a faithful or a traitor if you were ever on the show? And I'd be like, I would suck at this game no matter what set I was on, because like I wouldn't be a good lie. I don't wanna be a traitor. I'd be a faithful, but I'd feel like no one would believe me if I said it anyway. Because the thing about the traitors that sucks is that everyone is going off vibes a hundred percent. There's nothing. in the game that proves or shows or hints or anything if you're a faithful or a trader. So everyone's like, I'm a hundred percent faithful. They're a trader. Or like, no, no, no. I know you, they met yesterday, it's all vibes. A hundred percent. That's it. And like when you're at the round table and it's like, Caroline, you're a traitor. And then you have to explain yourself and get people to not vote against you based on nothing other than the, what you're saying at the round table. I'm like, this game makes me

Caroline 48:52

No.

Gillian (she/her) 48:53

and the, and the end credits, it's like psychologists, they have like therapists on set because people like it would make you crazy.

Caroline 48:59

Yeah, it would. I burt down tears.

Anne 49:01

Well that. Police are basing their beliefs through the read technique, which is what we see on TV in every episode of like Law and Order. You know, they're basing, are you acting nervous? And of course people are acting nervous if they're innocent and they're being questioned and they're in this uncomfortable situation. And then you add a low iq, a cognitive disability, you add poverty, and we have a problem. Like, did you know, I didn't know about false confessions until Brendan DD Darcy, Daisy Dassie, Dassie. I remember being shocked that that was like a thing that could happen back when making murder came out. And, but you know, the more you look into it, it happens so much.

Gillian (she/her) 49:36

It's everywhere. And Lauren Ryder and Steve Drizin, who are in west of Memphis, they're Brendan DA's lawyers. I don't know if they still are, but they're also in making a murderer because

Caroline 49:44

Uh,

Anne 49:44

I thought I recognized some of those people.

Gillian (she/her) 49:46

they're experts on

Caroline 49:48

confessions.

Anne 49:49

There was somebody they interviewed on American Scandal and the guest said about a fifth of exonerations involve someone who confessed. just like we probably shouldn't judge someone who's vulnerable to a cult. Like we've talked about that in our Heaven's Gate episode. we need to think twice about thinking. We would never confess to something like this. 'cause we don't know what we would do under the wrong circumstances. we might not have all the same risk factors, but being innocent is a risk factor cause you're gonna be open with the cops. Oh, one thing I wanted to say about Jason, he's so cute the way he said mom with such joy when she turns up. That was the moment that made me cry.

Gillian (she/her) 50:18

that breaks my heart. he's a kid. He's 16 again,

Caroline 50:22

Mm-hmm.

Anne 50:23

Yeah.

Gillian (she/her) 50:24

Yeah.

Anne 50:24

And he's so smart. He got his GED, which he had to fight for in prison. he now works for proclaim justice.org. and he, he was treated partly in prison too. Like was beaten, he was attacked because as far as the other prisoners knew he was a sadistic satanic child, murder and rapist.

Gillian (she/her) 50:38

Right. And Jesse too, like, when Jesse gets home, that scene too is just like,

Anne 50:42

Poor Jesse.

Gillian (she/her) 50:42

are we doing here? do these people sleep at night and why doesn't anyone wanna be the hero here? I don't understand it. I really don't get it.

Anne 50:49

And trumps a confession the, central Park, five DNA exonerated them. But they confessed. And it's weird because on the one hand, like say with the Epstein victims and people who have made accusations of sexual assault. As a society, we tend not to believe them. I'm not saying we, the three people talking here, don't believe them, but often we're like, where's the other evidence? Right. Same thing with sugar cane and the residential schools and the accusations against priests. Where's the evidence yet? When somebody confesses to something, we're like, we're done. That's all we need.

Caroline 51:16

Well, and I think it's, a lot of times it's like, does it reinforce what I accept reality to be, or does it not? And being a part of that,

Gillian (she/her) 51:24

there are about 1,000,001 reasons why we don't report. When

Caroline 51:27

Right, right.

Gillian (she/her) 51:28

I didn't report my rape or any of my sexual assaults. when I have tried to later in life, if something, you know happened, I, I was, I was assaulted at a concert a couple of years ago, and I, was like begging the security like it was happening, like in front of them. And I was just being like, totally manhandled or whatever, and I was begging the security to like, go get help, and they kind of played dumb. And I was like, hi, like this is serious. get him the fuck off of me. and I also had a, situation where I had to, something happened and it got to the point where I thought maybe I should make a paper trail because I knew nothing was gonna happen, but I thought maybe I should for, if and when the worst happens. At least I tried. because that's what we learned too. Like, 'cause

Caroline 52:07

Right,

Gillian (she/her) 52:07

be like, well, why didn't you say anything?

Caroline 52:09

right.

Gillian (she/her) 52:09

anybody? Why didn't you, whatever. So something happened that didn't have to do with, uh, sexual assault in any way. but I thought, Hmm, this might be getting a little dangerous. Like maybe I should, whatever. And two things happened. One, when I was sitting at the precinct to report it, I saw a woman come in and she had like a weak weekender bag filled with documents. she walked in and you could tell it's very, it's a weird feeling to walk into a police precinct and I'd never done it before. the guy at the desk said, that meaning a person and the other cop was like, oh no, no, this isn't us. Basically what this woman was saying is that she had all of these documents with orders of protection and all of this, this stuff against this guy. He had showed up to her work, to her job, so she went to the closest police precinct to. Tell them about it and, hopes that they would help her. They told her that because she filed it was anything to get her outta there. They sent her away because she filed in a different borough and they were like, oh, also, this isn't technically the right precinct you should go to. Like, you have to go to the one blocks away. And she was like, but this is two blocks away from my job. How is this not the place where I should go? And they were like, sorry. Sent her out into the world She came prepared, she tried to do the right thing. She went to the closest precincts and they were happy to turn her away. And then when I finally sat down with the person, I was like, look, I know nothing's gonna come of this. I just want proof that I tried. know, like if anything happens. And basically they were like, what? Uh, sorry, like this is basically nothing until you're actually

Caroline 53:32

Right. Come back when you're dead.

Gillian (she/her) 53:33

And I was like, okay, I'll send my husband.

Caroline 53:34

Yeah.

Gillian (she/her) 53:35

then I, that's when I, like I was calling my best friend. I was like, if anything happens, this is the name. I have the file, but basically were like, thanks, but no thanks, and we'll like file it somewhere and I guess we'll see what happens. And I was like, that's cool. Thank you.

Caroline 53:46

Yeah.

Anne 53:47

So believe professors, but don't believe victims.

Caroline 53:49

it's, it's interesting, right? It's interesting that that happened to you, but we have to go deal with this kid who likes Metallica. We think he might have

Anne 53:56

Yeah.

Caroline 53:57

an 8-year-old, so you could just hang tight.

Gillian (she/her) 53:59

the complete lack of warmth or empathy or compassion or sympathy or understanding where they sent this woman out into the

Caroline 54:05

Mm.

Gillian (she/her) 54:06

who had a full duffle bag filled with papers. I was horrified. I think about her all the time and I think about what an asshole. I didn't run after her. I didn't do anything. And I hope that she's okay and I feel super guilty that I didn't like run out after her,

Anne 54:19

Hmm.

Gillian (she/her) 54:19

were, calling me to do my thing and I was like, what? I just, I don't know. You know

Caroline 54:23

yeah,

Gillian (she/her) 54:23

situation and you're like, how do I fix this?

Caroline 54:26

yeah. But you can't, I mean, what, how, how would you have protected her, you know?

Gillian (she/her) 54:29

know. but it's like, I feel like I tell this story now for the first time into a microphone with you two, and it's like, people are gonna hear that and be like, you asshole. And you like, just let

Caroline 54:37

No,

Gillian (she/her) 54:37

like you're just as bad.

Anne 54:39

I didn't think that. not.

Caroline 54:41

I think we've talked before about, the shock of the men in our lives when they hear that something has happened to you and you're like, I promise you, every woman, you know, every woman, you know,

Gillian (she/her) 54:52

Everybody.

Caroline 54:53

something has happened we've talked before about Daniel Sas has a great standup routine where he talking about, I think Russell Brand, who he had been friends with, he says, if 10 men in a room and one of them does something like that and the rest of them don't do anything about it, you might as well not even be there, because if you're not. have to be actively involved. You can't just say, because I'm not the one assaulting women, I'm not part of the problem you are if you're not actively trying to fight against it.

Gillian (she/her) 55:18

Yeah.

Anne 55:18

and that's why I think I've mentioned in the past that I think young boys, before they get too sucked into the toxic stuff that's happening online need to be given. Role play a script for, what do you say when your friend says something, you know, horrific about women? Because that's the entry point, you start with objectifying and misogyny and then that leads to violence down the track.

Caroline 55:37

Yeah.

Anne 55:37

Well, speaking of cops, do we give these cops any benefit of the doubt, right? Like there was a lot of pressure on them, which is a recipe for disaster. Cops can get tunnel vision. I think we're really perhaps brainwashed by like law and order and CSI and all these shows that show really honorable cops who are after the bad guy. Do we think any of these cops or prosecutors or freaking, pereti. Did they actually believe it? Did they think they were doing the right thing? Or was this totally cynical? What do we think?

Gillian (she/her) 56:05

No, I'm not giving anybody any benefit of any doubt because again, where's the good one who tried to stop it? Like where are they?

Anne 56:10

Hmm.

Caroline 56:11

And I would say too, let's say. That some of them did believe their bullshit, because of their narcissism or whatever. when it became apparent that it was wrong and they were incorrect, why aren't they also standing up? Because that is one thing that I am very impressed about, and I know you and Patrick talked about this too, like Pam and, you know, the people who can do that. I'm always so impressed I can't, I was actually wondering if you might remember, there was a case too, where a mother's college age daughter was killed and the wrong person was jailed for it. you know, you, cover so many cases and you hear about so many cases where people just stick to their guns and they can't believe the truth because it'd be too hard to accept. then it always makes it so impressive when you see someone like Pam, who's still smelling her son's boy scout uniform able to see that injustice was done here. Say that, why aren't any of the cops doing that?

Gillian (she/her) 57:02

Because she had every right to lead with emotion and be reactive and

Caroline 57:06

Mm-hmm.

Gillian (she/her) 57:07

people she thought she could trust.

Caroline 57:09

Right?

Gillian (she/her) 57:10

because for her it's about justice for Stevie. So of course she's gonna be like, oh, because she doesn't have that yet.

Caroline 57:17

Yeah.

Gillian (she/her) 57:17

that's not the motivation for the people here in

Caroline 57:21

And

Anne 57:22

Well, yeah, the motivation should be to get the person who did it and if we know they didn't do it. I think it was Damien's attorney, Stidham is, is that the right name? sound right?

Gillian (she/her) 57:30

Jesse's

Anne 57:31

Jesse's attorney said he thought the prosecutors were evil because how could they actually think he did this and move forward with the prosecution? So that was his opinion that When you look at the evidence, you know,

Caroline 57:41

Yeah.

Gillian (she/her) 57:41

I mean, when you, their whole case, if you really were to unpack it, it was again, like they're on an episode of the Traders and Alan Cumming is behind them. Like it was just vibes. There was nothing putting

Anne 57:54

vibes. Yeah.

Gillian (she/her) 57:54

fact, they were, not there. They had alibis for not being there. So the entire thing was like, look at this thing that this emo goth kid wrote in his diary that I'm now reading to the world. And they didn't prove anything that court other than like, isn't this, isn't this whole situation really scary? And everyone said, yeah, is, it's scary. That's it.

Caroline 58:12

Yeah.

Anne 58:12

And that was what all the testimony was about. All the Satanic cult hearsay testimony was just like, look how scary satanism is. But it didn't actually link them to it.

Gillian (she/her) 58:20

And then later on, whenever anyone tried to say anything like, oh, animal predation, and oh, this and this and this. It was just like, oh, whatever. And it's like, how is that any more unreasonable and ridiculous than what you guys were saying in 1993?

Caroline 58:32

I know I wrote that down. Like somebody said with a story that's very believable. I'm like, what part of this story was believable? it was totally sensational from the get go. It's much more believable that animals did that to their bodies after the fact,

Gillian (she/her) 58:45

who keeps changing their story? Not

Caroline 58:47

Yeah.

Gillian (she/her) 58:47

Jason, or

Caroline 58:48

Right,

Anne 58:49

So turtles are new nightmare fuel for me. Right? Like

Gillian (she/her) 58:52

those

Anne 58:52

that turtle with its taping jaws that was fucking horrifying.

Caroline 58:57

at your local lake growing up? We

Anne 58:59

I don't think so. I don't think I've ever seen anything that horrifying in real life. That wasn't in like a Jurassic Park movie.

Caroline 59:06

Mm-hmm.

Gillian (she/her) 59:06

shit,

Anne 59:07

Yeah. And that guy who. Who offered his arm up to get bitten to show the, the bite radius, which is very jaws. The bite radius doesn't match. Right.

Gillian (she/her) 59:15

Yeah.

Anne 59:15

Uh, it also reminded me of the diat love past mystery, which I think I've mentioned before is one of my favorite mysteries. And there's a lot of, mysterious stuff that's happened to the body in terms of like tongues and eyes being eaten at that. People interpreted as like somebody gouged it out and it was probably just postmortem predation.

Caroline 59:30

Animals. Yeah.

Anne 59:31

Yeah. But the turtles didn't hog tie those boys.

Caroline 59:34

No.

Anne 59:35

Right. So what do we think actually happened to them,

Caroline 59:37

Oh,

Anne 59:38

Your opinion

Gillian (she/her) 59:40

of my own opinion. Um, I am very into Occam's Razor, so I am open to other ideas. Obviously I've done research on other things. I'm not saying that, but if I'm looking at patterns and I'm seeing everything that I have in front of me, you always start with the family and work your way out.

Anne 59:56

Yeah, I have Occam's razor written down in my notes too, in reference to the stepfather who was abusive. We always say the husband did it. It's generally not the sadistic stranger, the one-armed man. It's the man closest to the victims.

Caroline 1:00:09

Yeah.

Gillian (she/her) 1:00:10

a documented history of violence,

Caroline 1:00:12

And I, think I've definitely stolen your, when you hear Hoves thing, horses, not zebras, like on this podcast, cause I totally agree. not being privy to any other information, that is what seems most likely to me as well. And I find it shocking that the fathers were not

Anne 1:00:28

Right away.

Caroline 1:00:29

Yeah. that is the most basic of basic police work that could have been done. It's just really baffling.

Anne 1:00:34

that he was the last one to be seen with them, like chasing them into the woods and they were being like naughty, like, no, we're not coming home. Like, so my theory is rage went too far. He killed, Stevie probably by mistake, and then the others to cover it up and then staged it.

Gillian (she/her) 1:00:48

well, his DNA is in the,

Caroline 1:00:49

His

Anne 1:00:49

not Stevie's. His DNA is in one of the other kids' knots. Right. So like you could kind of, blame secondary transfer if it was on Stevie, but it's it's on one of the other kids. Right. And plus there's that guy saying it was the Hobbs family secret.

Caroline 1:01:02

Right,

Gillian (she/her) 1:01:02

if this is wrong, then egg on my face fine,

Caroline 1:01:06

right,

Gillian (she/her) 1:01:06

we'll find out who actually did it. And then it'll be like, oh, he's just an asshole. He's just an abusive, violent

Anne 1:01:11

Yeah.

Gillian (she/her) 1:01:12

duck. But like, let's get to the bottom of it.

Caroline 1:01:14

right,

Gillian (she/her) 1:01:15

it.

Anne 1:01:15

Just

Gillian (she/her) 1:01:15

it

Anne 1:01:15

investigate it.

Gillian (she/her) 1:01:16

we can stop talking about it and spend time on many of the other tens of thousands of cases are happening right now. As we sit here talking about this one case 30 years on when there's a lot of time and money and energy that could and should be spent on doing other injustices, like, we don't have time for this anymore.

Caroline 1:01:33

right.

Gillian (she/her) 1:01:33

There's too much to do. There are people getting ripped out of their homes.

Caroline 1:01:38

Ugh.

Gillian (she/her) 1:01:38

ice knocking down. We have Epstein files. I just don't understand

Anne 1:01:43

Also, why not just investigate those?

Gillian (she/her) 1:01:45

That would

Caroline 1:01:45

Yeah,

Gillian (she/her) 1:01:45

great. Wouldn't that

Caroline 1:01:46

that would be great.

Gillian (she/her) 1:01:47

don't understand why that's another thing where I'm just like, I feel crazy. I just don't get it.

Anne 1:01:52

into these allegations. That's what they're supposed to do.

Caroline 1:01:56

as you were talking about,

Gillian (she/her) 1:01:57

would look at the person who's named the most in those files.

Anne 1:02:00

Oh yeah. That makes sense.

Gillian (she/her) 1:02:02

do.

Caroline 1:02:02

More than Harry Potter in all seven Harry Potter books. that we wanna discuss. The author who shall not be named, but

Gillian (she/her) 1:02:08

But if I'm looking at patterns and I'm looking at what the numbers say and what has made the most sense, time and time and time and time again, if history is gonna repeat itself with Nazis, then history's gonna repeat itself with, and it's a numbers game, so I would investigate whose name is in it the most. I'm just saying I'm not

Caroline 1:02:22

Yeah,

Gillian (she/her) 1:02:23

law

Caroline 1:02:23

I agree. Just to your further your point about the amazingness of Damien and Lori and their positivity. you know, it was like in bed last night feeling quite hopeless. Just being like, and nothing is gonna happen about Alex Preddy and nothing's gonna happen about Renee Goode and nothing's gonna happen about these murdered girls in Iran. And like, it is so easy, as you said, to fall into despair.

Anne 1:02:46

they're flooding the zone. so overwhelming.

Caroline 1:02:48

especially when you're faced with a system that just seems dead set on, opposing you, which is what they're facing, it's just. It's really exhausting and good on them.

Gillian (she/her) 1:02:57

But look, I've been really realizing like, oh, I thought I knew what my limit was. and I was wrong. So I had a pretty dark few days, like after the newest, biggest batch of the Epstein files came out before we were at fucking war. Before, you know,

Caroline 1:03:12

Right?

Gillian (she/her) 1:03:13

I just can't even tell time anymore. But had to stop and I had to not feel guilty about not reading

Caroline 1:03:19

Mm-hmm.

Gillian (she/her) 1:03:20

files and learning about things. 'cause I'm like, oh, I need strength for when we're fighting now. So like, I had to recalibrate and say like, this is my limit now. because other things are coming on a regular basis. And also my job is to be surrounded by horrible things a lot of the time.

Caroline 1:03:35

Yeah.

Gillian (she/her) 1:03:36

I need to just readjust and that to be okay, for, to use the energy where things can actually be done. Because me scrolling that fucking J world thing is not helping anyone right

Caroline 1:03:47

Yeah.

Gillian (she/her) 1:03:47

rage is there.

Anne 1:03:48

Not

Gillian (she/her) 1:03:48

need to be like activated that way. I

Caroline 1:03:50

Yeah.

Gillian (she/her) 1:03:51

my moral compass. I know what's right. I know what's wrong. I don't need to be motivated to be angry. Like that's sort of where I'm living right now. So I don't need to be scrolling

Anne 1:03:59

somebody should be scrolling that not us,

Caroline 1:04:01

well,

Gillian (she/her) 1:04:02

my, literally not my job.

Anne 1:04:03

like actual prosecutors and.

Caroline 1:04:05

shoot. I'm not gonna be able to attribute it properly, but there's that amazing quote about like Stonewall and pride about We'd our friends in the morning and protest all day and then party all night, because what else is it all for? so I think you're right, and we are gonna try to echo kind of what you guys have also done on TCO, where after a couple weeks, something heavy, you gotta do something else because you got, you gotta just like take Yeah. Or poop cruise, whatever, you know?

Anne 1:04:32

Yeah.

Gillian (she/her) 1:04:32

you

Caroline 1:04:33

Yeah. Yeah.

Anne 1:04:34

at one point on your, coverage of this, Patrick says it's never the demon cult in the woods. And like Patrick, I'm not immune to a conspiracy theory, I'm a Bigfoot believer, but with this Epstein files thing, I'm not saying it's a demon cult, but is there a. It's just on an island or a ranch, and it's actually powerful rich men and not preschool teachers and teenagers in the woods, are there people who are actually doing this stuff to children, my tinfoil hat says maybe

Gillian (she/her) 1:05:03

You know, we got some shit because we, we record things like a month in advance now, so we're never

Anne 1:05:08

good.

Caroline 1:05:09

Yeah.

Gillian (she/her) 1:05:09

in this world something can happen right now as we're talking and we'll make everything we just said outdated. this is how we live now. So we recorded. Satan wants you, the latest like Epstein files drop came out where, you know, talkers were like, they're eating babies. And I'm like, oh, hold on. So I got a lot of dms where people were mad that we didn't pull the episode or we didn't acknowledge it, and I'm like, hold on, we can't do that.

Caroline 1:05:35

Right,

Gillian (she/her) 1:05:36

can't be DMing me about conspiracy theories in regards to an episode about conspiracy theories. everything that we know is that's a fact is fucking evil and it's bad. We don't need to exaggerate. If it's proven that all of these content creators about eating babies and all of this insane shit happens to be true, we will cross that bridge. The facts that we have now are evil and bad and disgusting enough, and they all should be beaten to death. That's how I feel. But I'm not going to put an evergreen thing on an episode after the fact. Connecting Michelle remembers the Epstein files, because proving that we really haven't learned anything.

Caroline 1:06:14

Mm-hmm.

Anne 1:06:14

Well, yeah, because we have to be careful about not flying off the handle and going in the exact same direction that we did back in the Satanic panic.

Gillian (she/her) 1:06:21

because

Anne 1:06:22

But

Gillian (she/her) 1:06:22

to be done. And it's proven that they've done awful, horrifying, vile things. Beat every last one of them to death. Slowly,

Anne 1:06:29

comes back to investigate and prosecute these people. Whether the most horrible details are true or not, nothing's happening to them. So that's what needs to happen.

Caroline 1:06:36

Yeah.

Gillian (she/her) 1:06:37

Right. And I'm not gonna go through people trying to find and reverse engineer stuff, being like, oh my God, he asked for a bagel. You know that what bagels code for? It's like, oh, okay. Like, but literally that's what they're saying. And it's like, we need to stop trying to make it worse. It's bad enough. truth and the facts that we have I don't, I'm not wishing this on people, but like, that should keep you up at night anyway. We don't have to make it worse. And then you become the person that no one's listening to.

Caroline 1:07:03

Right.

Anne 1:07:03

Right.

Gillian (she/her) 1:07:04

it because we need to be heard and listen to and fight for these women and these kids. don't make it worse.

Caroline 1:07:10

Yeah.

Gillian (she/her) 1:07:10

comes out that they were using code and eating babies, then we'll fucking deal with it. But right now what we have is bad enough and we gotta do this.

Anne 1:07:17

Yeah. let's talk about most upsetting moment.

Gillian (she/her) 1:07:19

Oh my God. I mean the beginning, right? and also just trigger warning, the paradise lost. Docs. I think maybe the first one has a lot of unedited photos, I know it was very jarring in Western Memphis,

Anne 1:07:30

Yeah. The images of those little boys' bodies was, for me the worst.

Gillian (she/her) 1:07:34

I don't know how you can see that and have it not stick with you forever.

Anne 1:07:36

Yeah.

Caroline 1:07:37

when they, when they were showing the bodies, which I was not expecting. cause a

Anne 1:07:40

was rough.

Caroline 1:07:41

a lot of times, things are a little bit more blurred and I I think it's necessary, because I think it also really helped, you know, the guys who found them and they're still choked up. We talked about this last week as well. Like, it is important to always be thinking about the ripple effect of these incidents in these crimes. Like how many people's lives they shatter. who might not even be directly involved.

Anne 1:08:02

Pam scream, which felt very hereditary, but real life.

Gillian (she/her) 1:08:05

She just like, her knees buckle. It's like, of course, of course. That happened.

Anne 1:08:09

um, that scene where Pertti describes the murders and the sound effects, like laid it on a bit thick. And, it was really hard to listen to, the way they were. It's, it was like knife sounds. And at this point we didn't know about the turtles, so I was just like, Jesus Christ, this is a lot.

Caroline 1:08:24

that gets hard too. And I know we've talked a lot about Bob Ruff and his podcast and has a season dedicated to this. And, there are like reimagine admins as date with Dateline likes to say, the boys' voices. And it is hard to hear and to think about, what

Anne 1:08:39

Yeah.

Caroline 1:08:40

to them.

Anne 1:08:40

It's so sad. Yeah. just seeing how old they look when they take the Alfred plea. Like you haven't seen Jason since. that day in court when he was a teenager then he's just like this man, and it was so sad to see how much of their lives they've lost.

Gillian (she/her) 1:08:52

Or just have so much fear and horror about the truly awful thing that happened, but just to lose sight of that a little and be out for blood for three teenagers. 'cause there are kids too.

Anne 1:09:03

Mm-hmm.

Gillian (she/her) 1:09:04

that footage of them, Damien in that bulletproof vest, with no shoes on because they didn't let him put them on. It's just like, what are we doing here?

Anne 1:09:12

Yeah. And taking his books off.

Gillian (she/her) 1:09:14

times today, but like, that's how it feels.

Anne 1:09:16

Yeah. And how they took his Stephen King books on off of him. Like just the, the minor tortures too are tortures.

Gillian (she/her) 1:09:22

destroyed his cell on a regular basis. They would toss it. he would make art and writings and they would come in and destroy it just to, just to try to break 'em a little bit every single day. They did that relentlessly in prison.

Anne 1:09:33

oh, another, tough moment for me was just Amanda's interview, how much she is suffering from the ripple effect of Stevie's death, or perhaps the abuse at the hands of her father. Well, let's talk about some of the horrors beneath the surface. I think all the people who are probably, like Damien, like the other two in prison, but they don't have Eddie Vetter and Donnie Depp and all these people who are in their camp how many similar cases.

Gillian (she/her) 1:09:58

Jackson,

Anne 1:09:59

Yeah, how many similar cases are there where it's not egregious and we don't have Peter Jackson, who are just rotting there.

Gillian (she/her) 1:10:04

tens of thousands,

Anne 1:10:05

Yeah.

Gillian (she/her) 1:10:06

50. Like what, what is the, I think there are like 26,000 innocent people in prison right now, think. Is

Anne 1:10:10

Oh, it's terrible. Yeah,

Gillian (she/her) 1:10:11

but it's, it's

Anne 1:10:12

it's a lot.

Gillian (she/her) 1:10:13

bad. they're mostly people of color,

Caroline 1:10:15

Yeah.

Gillian (she/her) 1:10:15

or the sentences are so insane. It's like some kid, wrong place, wrong time, Or the bail system like Jesus Christ, like, you know, the whole thing. It's really, it's

Anne 1:10:25

And the plea system, I think is another deeper horror that the system that rewards dishonesty, whether you're the one, providing witness testimony that somebody did it to get a lesser deal, or that you're saying you did it to avoid the death penalty.

Gillian (she/her) 1:10:35

Sure.

Anne 1:10:35

other deeper horrors are, moral panics, which we have to be cautious about with the current Epstein stuff. and then just the sunk cost fallacy, which we've talked about here a lot, that digging in, people who are refusing to backtrack from perhaps making that mistake.

Gillian (she/her) 1:10:48

and I think now it's just even worse where people, want the anger, they want the hysteria, they want to lean into that. Instead of

Anne 1:10:56

Yeah.

Gillian (she/her) 1:10:57

I was wrong. Like, I, I remember in like 2016. It's like if if you see something on Facebook that seems unbelievable, it probably is. And now that was like such a different time even now, where it's like, oh, everyone is just believing the

Anne 1:11:11

Yeah. Because of ai, we, we have no truth anymore.

Gillian (she/her) 1:11:15

No one's questioning

Anne 1:11:17

Yeah.

Gillian (she/her) 1:11:17

that they should, you know, I'm not saying like these Q anon people are question everything. I'm just saying like, the media literacy, like comprehension crisis that is happening in this country is like nothing I've ever seen in my life. it's really bad. it's really scary. It's a very scary time.

Caroline 1:11:32

And it feels intentional when you're, stripping money from schools and then giving it to the voucher programs and stuff like that, that then just benefit, these religious schools that may or may not actually be schools or doing any sort of educating whatsoever

Anne 1:11:45

Very scary time.

Gillian (she/her) 1:11:46

Yeah.

Anne 1:11:46

Another true horror men. Uh, well, not just men, anyone, people, I won't be sexist, who talk bullshit with absolute authority. And that is Frank Perretti for me.

Caroline 1:11:56

Yeah. I mean, you're right. Not to say only men are capable of that. We, Christy Noam, I think does a lot of that right now.

Anne 1:12:02

And he failed twice. How was he allowed to take that exam again?

Caroline 1:12:05

know, my God. And the guy who wrote the book was like, this guy's an idiot.

Anne 1:12:09

Okay. Your two part episode was quite a few years ago, and your interview with Damien, I know you released an episode in March, 2025. I didn't get a chance to listen to it. Are there any updates that we should know about and what do you want to happen next?

Gillian (she/her) 1:12:20

thank you for asking that. That was a collaboration that TCO did with Bob Ruff over at Truth I Justice, because, Bob and I sat down with Damien and Lori to talk about what was happening at that time, in March because we really, really, really just needed the pressure to be put on for the prosecutor of Sonya Hagood to actually. Approve the testing of the evidence, which she said she would do before she got into office. Then she got into office and then that just didn't happen for quite some time. and it was really hard to get in touch with her. And so we just needed kind of a boots on the ground situation. now that evidence is at the lab and so we are waiting to hear, what is coming back from that. There's been, hmm, a delay of course, because of when they're getting a certain type of technology that they need to do a certain type of thing. So there are always roadblocks, but it's there. The evidence that we wanna tested is there. and Everyone agreed on like all parties, Damien, Jesse, and Jason, like what lab they wanted and the prosecutor, like the state agreed. And so it's this independent lab. It's like not being tested by West Memphis Police Department. It's like this is a lab that, this is what they do, the MVAC stuff, and like the ligatures are there and it's all there. And so now we're just to see what the results are we have all of our fingers crossed that like it's not degraded, I think there's possibility that, they might hedge a little bit or say, well just 'cause fill in the blanks name DNA is here. That doesn't mean anything. Like after the DNA comes back, we still need the prosecutor to move forward with the case. So are slow, small steps happening, but the DNA being tested has been years and years in the making. So that's the win we're gonna take right now. and I'm gonna do what Damien and Lori would never do with like, I'm not gonna be like, well, like let's talk about all the bad stuff that could happen. The DNA is where it needs to be. The testing that we need to have happen is happening, and we're gonna go

Anne 1:14:10

Keep the pressure up, keep talking about it, I guess.

Gillian (she/her) 1:14:13

gotta keep talking about it because once it comes back, like I don't wanna hear any excuses from the prosecutor's office. I really don't.

Anne 1:14:19

Okay. Now you have to go soon. Maybe. Now, do you have any recommendations to go along with this?

Gillian (she/her) 1:14:24

Yeah, well, look, I would listen to Pearl Jams 10. that's a perfectly grunge album. Eddie Vetter at his best. No, he's always at his best. for Stephen, if we're gonna go the Stephen King route, the original it was Tim Curry

Anne 1:14:36

That was mine. Yeah. Well, the book. But yeah,

Gillian (she/her) 1:14:39

yeah. Or the book,

Anne 1:14:39

kids on Bikes hanging out in a. Weird naturey area. Area, like the.

Caroline 1:14:44

I was also thinking like with Shoddy cop work, like the Ellen Greenberg, um,

Gillian (she/her) 1:14:48

what a mess.

Caroline 1:14:49

what really happened to her? Karen Reed, Sandra Melgar, which also is something Bob Ruff has been working on. Truth and Justice. Yeah.

Gillian (she/her) 1:15:00

five. He did a whole season on this case, and he also did a documentary on oxygen called the Forgotten West Memphis three, which is like, we will say the West Memphis six. there's some interesting stuff there. And Merril Lever's book, devil's not, is just really like the ins and outs of stuff that went on in the courtroom. I think you'd find it interesting to just be like, oh, that seems like that shouldn't have

Caroline 1:15:21

Mm-hmm.

Gillian (she/her) 1:15:21

oh, that's a lie. Like, oh,

Anne 1:15:24

All right. Survival. What can we learn from this?

1:15:26

Insist on recording interrogations. cause one of the reasons we know about how problematic false confessions are is because Brendan Daes was recorded and it broke through.

Gillian (she/her) 1:15:35

look, always ask for a lawyer. That's

Anne 1:15:37

Yep. Yep.

Gillian (she/her) 1:15:38

They your rights. They are legally allowed to lie to you, and they will. So always ask for a lawyer. I mean, we see this all the time. Like, okay, if you want, like, no. Okay, yes, I want, it doesn't matter what it looks like. Don't listen to them. Always ask for the lawyer. keep your mouth shut until the lawyer gets there. Don't believe a word they say. and in terms of just like your own, like mental health, trying to get through it. okay to take breaks and not be surrounded by this all the time because we need you.

Anne 1:16:01

Yeah, well, in Damien's interview, he said he's happiest living a monastic life. He quotes Beethoven, he says, we can approach divinity as closely as we can gather it's raised and disseminate them to mankind. And we can do that through art, we can do that through music. He does that through Ritual Magic. he's got his own podcast, by the way, and his advice for getting through turbulent times was to find something you love and pour yourself heart and soul into it. And I think that really applies to all the crap that's swirling around us today.

Gillian (she/her) 1:16:25

Yeah, I agree completely.

Anne 1:16:26

All right. Well, we'll let you go then, Jillian. Thank you so much.

Caroline 1:16:30

much.

Anne 1:16:31

it was such a joy to have you on here and get to know you better. I feel like I know you 'cause I've listened to a bunch of your podcasts, but obviously you meeting us for the first time, so

Gillian (she/her) 1:16:39

Look. Caroline, Annie, thank you both so much. Thank you for wanting to be talking about this case, after all this time and, joining the fight. And I'll keep you updated on what's going on and, uh, you know, I just really, really appreciate you guys taking the time. I know schedules are crazy, so this has been like really, really, really nice to meet other, like good

Anne 1:17:00

Yeah. Time zones are crazy.

Gillian (she/her) 1:17:01

they are.

Caroline 1:17:02

Thank you so much,

Anne 1:17:03

Thank you so much.

Caroline 1:17:04

appreciate it.

Anne 1:17:05

All

Caroline 1:17:05

Okay. Have

Anne 1:17:06

all.

Caroline 1:17:06

night.

Anne 1:17:07

Bye. well that was so fun having Jillian here with us. do you have a palette cleanser for us? Is it just to listen to true come obsessed.

Caroline 1:17:14

I was gonna say, if you are able to, even, and I, some of this is on the Patreon, but obviously their Jinx coverage is legendary. They've covered all sorts of things. They've covered this. I really enjoy them. for a good palate cleanser, you know, you could even listen to a, not so hard to cope with case, such as their poop, cruise coverage, but also, we talked a few weeks ago about how I was gonna go to Disney with my family, just sort of a plug to like, have that family time, take that trip or whatever. Disney and Universal, that is a one time thing. We cannot afford to do that like all the time. But, even just going camping or something on the weekend, was great. I saw homework for my daughter that was like, what would you like to do next time? And she just said, be with my family. So, you know,

Anne 1:17:56

Oh.

Caroline 1:17:56

doing that kind of stuff. if

Anne 1:17:58

ice cream with your kids. Like every time we do something special, I'm like, what was your favorite part? And they're like, when we got ice cream. So simple.

Caroline 1:18:04

I have two like dairy intolerant kids, so they might have like, cookies,

Anne 1:18:07

Get a Popsicle.

Caroline 1:18:09

get some Dells with your kids. Um,

Anne 1:18:11

Dells, yes. Okay. All. Homework After this, we are back to our regularly scheduled program in response to Sugar Cane, which is the 16 time nominated Masterpiece Sinners that may have won, best picture, best many things by the time this episode is released. So fingers crossed for that.

Caroline 1:18:29

after that much like we just talked about with Jillian, trying to go a little bit lighter on things. So after sinners, we're gonna do Goodfellas, but a few weeks from that. Annie will have another pick in between, but I wanna give people plenty of time that we're gonna do double in the white City. So if you have to put

Anne 1:18:45

I'm so excited for that.

Caroline 1:18:47

Hold with your library or whatever you need to do to get started on that. That is gonna be, a couple of episodes away now. So just giving you guys a heads up as Annie did with Mexican Gothic. That, we've got a book coming from me. Can you believe it?

Anne 1:18:59

Woo. Hey, you did catch and kill. you've done books. Alright. What recommendations do you have?

Caroline 1:19:04

in terms of Satanic panic, I mentioned Sarah Marshall has the w No podcast, also the documentary Satan Wants You, that Jillian mentioned TCO did cover. So you could either watch the documentary or listen to TCOs coverage of it. I'm really enjoying the Sarah Marshall podcast. Speaking of Sarah Marshall, I do love the movie for getting Sarah Marshall. So I, it's not

Anne 1:19:25

Just always forgetting Sarah Marshall.

Caroline 1:19:27

yeah, it's a great movie. Fuck Russell brand, but, it is a very good movie. in terms of shoddy police work, what happened to Ellen Greenberg? Anything related to the Karen Reed trial? anything related to Sandra Melgar and, that end, truth and Justice in general. Bob Ruffs podcast is great. So there's a lot of things, along the lines of things you can influence by knocking down those walls because everything will eventually break, as we said. in terms of being weird, the Craft Persevering Wallflower is my favorite book of having been a weird kid. John Douglas was in this, which we didn't really get to talk about, but obviously we love Mind Hunter. and then for kids Being Kids Stand By Me, Goonies, and we talked about Stranger Things and the buyer's connection, et cetera. finally we talked a little bit about the judge doing the right thing. There was a dateline called Bringing Jay Home recently. They also covered it on a date with Dateline. and a judge there that says, we're not always known for making sure this kind of justice gets served 'cause it is about, member of the L-G-B-T-Q community getting justice in, in the south. And, and it did happen in this case, and the judge didn't have to say to that effect and did. And so I just wanted to plug that as well.

Anne 1:20:34

I also wanted to plug Mind Hunter, and the book as well. I also read Robert Wrestlers, whoever Fights Monsters around the same time as I read John Douglas's, mind Hunter. And I remember like the books are a bit showboaty and like egotistical and like, look how good I am at this. But I still find that era fascinating. So read the books, watch the series on Netflix. Netflix, please bring one Hunter back.

Caroline 1:20:52

Seriously.

Anne 1:20:53

It's so good.

Caroline 1:20:54

So good.

Anne 1:20:54

Um,

1:20:55

Damien has several books out. He has a podcast and he has a Patreon where he does live streams. So if you wanna get to know Damien better, he's out there.

Anne 1:21:02

As I said, I listened to quite a few episodes surrounding this, the True Crime Obsessed coverage, the last podcast on the left. Coverage, they have a three parter on this and an interview with Damien Eckles. I also came across the podcast Wrongful Conviction with Jason Brom and Damien's on there as well. Jason Baldwin is on this podcast as well, and they have a whole series of like junk science episodes, like polygraphs, false confessions. So I listened to the one on false confessions and it's just lots of interviews with people who have been wrongly convicted. let's see, an armchair expert, 4 95 has an interview with Saul Casson, who's this expert on false confessions and wrote a book on it Duped. Why Innocent people Confess and Why We Believe Their Confessions Sounds very interesting. Patricia Cornwell's, early k Scarpetta novel. The Body Farm features a research institute that tests decomposition of corpses in different scenarios, so that's the kind setting where they would've figured out the animal predation thing. the Denzel Washington movie Hurricane and the Bob Dylan song.

Caroline 1:21:57

Mm

Anne 1:21:57

He's another person who benefited because, public opinion and rock stars took up his cause. As we said. Check out the HBO Doc Paradise Lost. the devil's not that. Jillian mentioned the crucible for hysteria and witch hunts. master in Margarita because Damien Lori discuss it. I can't remember anything about it other than that. It was weird and I liked it back when I read it, but check that out. and yeah, for kids riding around bikes in a place that feels like the Barons and because Damien is a fan of Stephen King, Stephen King's it.

Caroline 1:22:26

Also,

Anne 1:22:26

let's see. Lord of the Rings, yes. Support Peter Jackson. He needs to be donating money to this so.

Caroline 1:22:31

Yeah.

Anne 1:22:33

Keep putting money in Peter Jackson's. Yeah. Poor Peter Jackson. He needs more cash. Um, Damien is also into ritual magic, and I know this is not the same thing, but anytime I hear about a magician, I think of Job Bluth.

Caroline 1:22:47

Development.

Anne 1:22:48

Arrested Development. Always Arrested Development. Okay, I think that's it. Thanks for listening. Jillian, thank you so much for visiting our Humble podcast. it was amazing.

Caroline 1:22:57

Mm-hmm.

Anne 1:22:58

Please do all the things podcasters ask you to do, like and subscribe. Follow us on Instagram, Facebook, or threads. Write a review on iTunes. You can email us at Drawn to Darkness pod@gmail.com. We're on YouTube now. And most importantly, tell a like-minded friend who's also drawn to darkness. And if like Shirley Jackson, you delight in what you fear. Join us in two weeks here at Drawn To Darkness. Special shout out to Nancy Ano who painted our cover art. You can find her on Instagram at Nancy ano and to Harry Kidd for our intro and outro music. You can find him on Instagram at Harry J. Kidd and on Spotify.