31 - Ryan Coogler's Sinners with guest Makeda Pennycooke

In this episode of Drawn to Darkness, we dive into Ryan Coogler’s Sinners, a genre-bending vampire period drama set in 1930s Jim Crow Mississippi. Joined by special guest Makeda Pennycooke, life and anti-racism coach, we unpack a film that is as gorgeous as it is unsettling, layering horror, history, and music. We break down vampire lore, our favorite characters, standout performances (Michael B. Jordan playing twins), the transcendent musical moments, and the symbolism woven throughout, from religion and ancestral knowledge to systems of white supremacy, power, and assimilation.

Content & Spoiler Warning

This episode contains full spoilers for Sinners and our discussion includes reference to violence, gore, and body horror (it’s a vampire movie). Some of the deeper horrors include racism, white supremacy, the Ku Klux Klan, lynching, and child loss. There’s also a snake that gets killed and drool. Really really gross drool.  

Palate Cleanser

After all that intensity, Caroline and Makeda’s cure? TikTok’s National Parks content (also dubbed “Only Parks”)

Passages with Amanda Jacobson from Wine & Crime (Twilight season recap) 

Recommendations

Films & TV:

• Eight Mile for more from Omar Miller (Cornbread). 
• Friday Night Lights and The Wire for early Michael B. Jordan and Raising Dion - lighter Michael B. Jordan content for the kids.
• What We Do in the Shadows  - always WWDITS
• Blade, Interview with the Vampire, Buffy the Vampire Slayer (film), Let the Right One In, Abigail, Dracula, Midnight Mass  for more vampire picks 
• The Haunting of Hill House, Fall of the House of Usher for layered horror storytelling with a director who likes actors and sticks with them.
• Get Out for themes of appropriation and identity.
• Lovecraft Country for horror grounded in racial history. 
• Across the Spider-Verse for Hailee Steinfeld fans 

Books & Reading:

• The Cross and the Lynching Tree by James H. Cone 
• A History of White People by Nell Irvin Painter 
• Passing by Nella Larsen 
• The Reformatory by Tananarive Due 
• Ring Shout by P. Djèlí Clark 
• The Vanishing Half by Brit Bennett
• A Discovery of Witches (book series) by Deborah Harkness 
• Ted Chiang’s Story of your Life and Others for the melding of time.

Podcasts & Other:

• Reel Conversations with Britt and Bree for black women’s perspectives on Sinners 
• The Next Best Picture Podcast Sinners episode for lots of background info.
• Horror Joy podcast episode on Sinners and The Reformatory
• Time Bandits for questioning who writes history 

Documentary/True Crime:

• Lost Women of Alaska - produced by Octavia Spencer 

Homework:

Goodfellas - a lighter pick with a Chicago Mafia connection 

And Start reading The Devil in the White City - another Chicago-based story blending crime and history 

And remember, if someone asks to be invited in, say no! 

We’ll see you next time—only on Drawn to Darkness.

Special thanks to Nancy Azano for our cover art (Instagram: @nancyazano) and Harry Kidd for our music (Instagram: @harryjkidd, Spotify). 

Transcript

Anne 0:10

Welcome back to Drawn to Darkness, a sometimes weekly, sometimes biweekly podcast where we discuss our favorite horror and true crime. If you prefer vampires that don't sparkle, we're here for you. My name is Annie and I'll be introducing Caroline to my favorite horror movies, podcasts, TV shows and books.

Caroline 0:25

And my name is Caroline and I'll be doing the same from the true crime side of things.

Anne 0:28

And we have a special guest here today.

Caroline 0:30

Yes, we do. I'm so excited and, happy to introduce you all to Makita. Makita was my anti-racism coach. So if you all recall, a few episodes ago we discussed the Tuskegee Syphilis experiment and we were discussing that we are two white women discussing a black experience without a black voice in the room. And so I reached out to Makita and she very graciously offered us her time. So, Thank you. Makita. And welcome.

Makeda 0:54

Thank you. I'm excited to be here. Thanks for having me.

Anne 0:57

Excited to have you too. So, Makita, and Caroline, who's your favorite vampire.

Makeda 1:02

Uh, not one that sparkles

Anne 1:03

Thank God. I would be so embarrassed if I'd made that joke and you were like, Edward. Oh,

Makeda 1:09

not seen my bird. I'm not seen anybody. Uh, my favorite vampire is actually not from the Twilight movies at all. my favorite vampire comes from a book series, A Discovery of Witches, and the vampire's name is Matthew Claremont, and he

Anne 1:21

that's a good one. Sexy, rich, vampire.

Makeda 1:23

Sexy, rich, vampire. What is there not to love? Except

Anne 1:26

Yeah. Well,

Makeda 1:27

of blood part,

Anne 1:28

if you're a vampire and you haven't figured out how to be rich, you are not a very smart vampire.

Makeda 1:32

Exactly,

Caroline 1:33

I think Rich comes with it a little bit,

Anne 1:36

you're pretty pathetic if you can't figure that out

Makeda 1:38

exactly.

Anne 1:38

you know generations of lives. What about you, Carolyn? What's your favorite?

Caroline 1:42

I think it's hard for me to choose between Laslo. and Nanor, but I'm gonna have to go with Laslo.

Anne 1:48

Laslo. I think I like Nandor better than Laslo. We're talking about what we do in the shadows in case anyone hasn't seen that. So good. I was gonna say Colin Robertson, who is the energy vampire and is hilarious. And if you don't know what we're talking about, you must watch what we do in the Shadows. Nikita, have you seen it?

Makeda 2:04

I

Anne 2:04

Oh,

Makeda 2:05

seen it, but now I'm

Anne 2:06

it's so funny.

Caroline 2:07

really good.

Anne 2:08

it's like a spoof of all vampire lore um, yeah,

Caroline 2:14

They

Anne 2:14

office meets vampires

Caroline 2:15

yeah,

Makeda 2:16

Oh Lord.

Caroline 2:17

It's hilarious.

Makeda 2:18

Oh, good.

Anne 2:19

now.

Makeda 2:19

Okay.

Anne 2:20

of like real, not real, but like scary vampires. I'm gonna go with Barlow from Salem's lot because he is very dread inducing.

Makeda 2:29

Yes, I would agree with that.

Anne 2:31

Now the reason we're talking about this.

Caroline 2:33

Yeah,

Anne 2:33

Oh, I, I'm drawn to dread. Well, we are talking about scary vampires today, because we are discussing the recent, Oscar award winning sinners. So before we get too far into it, spoiler and trigger warning, there's gore. There's body horror, typical of vampire attacks and fighting back against vampires. There's staking, spurting, blood ripped out throats, burning bodies, deaths of main characters. And then there's also the deeper horrors. There's racism, white supremacy, clan. There's a story about lynching. There's child loss. there is a scary snake, and the snake does die if you're worried about it. Oh, and Caroline, there's drool. Yep. If you have a problem with drool, just

Caroline 3:13

say, if you didn't say it, I was gonna be like also drool.

Anne 3:16

there's drool. Yes. That can be very triggering. So if you haven't already, please go watch it. It's so worth it. I'll give you a second. Okay. Within 97% on Rotten Tomatoes 16 Academy Award nominations. Oscar wins for best screenplay, best actor, and best original score. And best cinematography. Ryan Kugler's Sinners a Vampire period drama set. In 1932, Jim Crow, Mississippi opens with twin brothers, smoke and stack returning home after serving in World War I and bootlegging for the Chicago Mafia with cash and a truck full of Irish beer, they plan to open up a juke joint so sharecroppers can briefly escape the brutal relentlessness of their lives for a few hours, but threats luma over them. Will the mafia catch up? What about the clan? And then there's the economic reality. Can they make a profit when many of their sharecropper clientele are paying in company coins, they recruit their cousin Sammy, a gifted singer whose gorgeous voice will draw crowds, but perhaps something else. There's Mary Stack's, former lover who passes as white and married a white man. Prolene. Sammy's love interest, Annie, a voodoo practitioner whose infant child with smoke died. Slim, a renowned lose musician, grace and Beau, Chinese American grocers and cornbread. A sharecropper hired as the bouncer. When the Duke joint opens that night, the music and dancing create a sense of joy and freedom, especially when Sammy plays his talent transcending time. If you don't know what I'm talking about, please go watch it. But that power attracts something darker. An ancient vampire named Remic who simply asks to be invited inside. As patrons leave, he begins turning them into vampires, including Mary Stack and Cornbread, and they have quite the Lord of the dance party outside. Annie recognizes the signs and survivors prepare for battle with garlic and wooden steaks. But by night's end, nearly everyone is dead, including Annie leaving only smoke. And Sammy, as dawn breaks Remick chases Sammy into the water seeking to absorb his talent, but smoke manages to stake him through the heart destroying the vampire, but it's not over. Remick had warned them that the Klan would never allow the Duke joint to exist, and that morning they arrive, smoke goes Rambo on them, but is mortally wounded. As he dies, he sees Annie and their child waiting for him and he joins them. But wait, there's more. 60 years later, Sammy now an elderly blues musician played by legend buddy. Guy still performs at his club named after Prolene. After a set, two familiar figures asked to come in, stack and marry alive as vampires dressed In the most nineties way possible, they offer Sammy immortality, but he declines still. They agree on one thing. That night at the Duke joint was the best day of their lives, and the last time they were truly free. So ladies, what adjective would you use to describe this movie?

Caroline 5:43

I would say breathtaking.

Anne 5:44

Yeah.

Makeda 5:45

Intense. Intense. right up until the Jupe joint scene, it was somewhat lighthearted, sort of knew the guy who sold them the sawmill wasn't gonna be a good person. And then everything at the JU joint just became intense from the music. The song that you referenced, um, I Lied to you, was just beautiful. Like in, I felt it in my body. and then everything that happened thereafter.

Anne 6:11

Yeah. I was gonna say transcendent mostly because of that song. I've never seen anything like it, right? It's, Breathtaking, transcendent, groundbreaking,

Makeda 6:19

Mm-hmm.

Anne 6:20

and multi-layered, it requires multiple viewings, I think, to get all the subtext. It wasn't really scary for me, but it is menacing and unsettling and obviously the true horrors, as we discussed in my trigger warning.

Caroline 6:32

I wanted to sort of elaborate that with breathtaking. I feel like. In every sense of that, just like you said, multilayered, it was breathtakingly beautiful, breathtakingly shocking, breathtakingly for me at some points and sad.

Anne 6:46

you're such a wham, no, I'm kidding.

Caroline 6:50

The drool was terrible.

Anne 6:51

Yeah, the drill's gross. Yep.

Makeda 6:53

Not a fan of the drill.

Caroline 6:54

I have an issue with saliva.

Makeda 6:56

That is fair.

Caroline 6:57

I haven't met another like me. I hear there are dozens of us out there.

Anne 7:01

Dozens. But one of the things that I really loved about this movie is it is exactly the type of movie that made me want to start this podcast. It's this antidote to the attitude that our movies aren't Oscar worthy. And you know, I think early on, maybe it was in our first or second episode, I told this story about a fellow English teacher mocking me for saying that my favorite author was Stephen King. And it's movies like this that give us the opportunity to go into these deeper issues. Whether it's grief and hereditary or medical gaslighting in Rosemary's Baby, or racism and appropriation and exploitation in this and history, you know, the first large chunk of this movie is about the horrors of the Jim Crow South.

Makeda 7:39

definitely. I'm personally not a huge fan of horror, so I'm gonna side with Caroline more than you Annie, so my apologies in advance.

Anne 7:46

It's fine.

Makeda 7:47

There are some movies that are just gory for the sake of being gory. but I do think a large chunk of the genre tries to have a deeper meaning behind it, right? So it's not just, gratuitous gore that it really is intended to have a larger meaning behind it. And certainly sinners has so many different layers and pieces to pull out and tug on. and yeah, I heard, um, Josh Johnson, who I adore, it Josh Johnson? I can't remember somebody I listened to who said that, there were a lot of people who were critical of sinners before it won the Oscar. And then those same people who were critical of it before it won the Oscars, after it won all the Oscars and all the awards, suddenly became like, yeah, I knew it was great, and all the things. So I have feelings about that, but I'm gonna ignore that for now.

Caroline 8:34

love a bandwagon.

Makeda 8:35

Oh,

Anne 8:35

Yeah.

Makeda 8:37

God forbid we have an original thought people.

Caroline 8:39

Yeah.

Anne 8:40

the same time, they love to be, ornery. there's a lot of people speaking against it as well, despite the awards, it's won. Did you know it was a vampire movie going in? I watched it because it was a vampire movie. That's what drew me to it. But a lot of people I heard didn't know because it's not really, it wasn't necessarily marketed that way. And so some people went in not knowing and were like, what? This is a vampire movie. This is stupid.

Makeda 9:01

Yeah.

Caroline 9:02

I was like that.

Anne 9:03

Yeah, you didn't know.

Caroline 9:04

No.

Anne 9:05

Oh really,

Caroline 9:06

Well,'cause at first I was really listening. I was like, oh, I'm gonna learn about a new scary thing, a hate, cause at first that's what she's talking so I was like, oh, I'm gonna learn, some other culture's. Scary being, but no, it was vampires. I,

Anne 9:20

Well if you wanna learn about Hanks, you gotta read the Reformatory by 10 Do.

Makeda 9:50

the layers that are in it, that is about black trauma. I appreciate that people were not given a quote unquote heads up, so that they didn't go in with, preconceived notions about what the movie was going to be about it, right? So if they heard it was a vampire movie, then suddenly they start thinking all the things, the nineties millennial folks are all like, it's gonna be Edward. And, and then people have all these expectations around it, rather than just being able to go in and see what it was about. And I think that there's something there around black trauma and the ways that, whiteness doesn't really get to get a heads up about that.'cause it's part of our lived experience

Caroline 10:26

Mm-hmm.

Makeda 10:27

one of the things I, I believe is that this movie was not intended for the white gaze. And because it was not intended for the white gaze, then there was no heads up needed if that makes sense.

Anne 10:39

So forcing people who are not used to discomfort to be uncomfortable perhaps.

Makeda 10:44

exactly. Without giving them a heads up or softening the blow for them, but allowing them to see it head on. Because I think one of the things that white supremacy is really good at is pretending that we, are we making it up, that it's not as bad as we say it is that our lived experiences are in our minds, you know, like gas light us right around trauma and the things that we experience. It's very good at that because white supremacy, Caroline knows this, that there are characteristics to white supremacy, and one of them is the right to comfort. And so this idea that this movie will be so confronting for people without that heads up, I just think that that might have been part of it.

Anne 11:24

That reminds me of something that I listened to, regarding the BAFTA controversy where the guy with Tourettes

Makeda 11:32

Yeah.

Anne 11:33

out and I listened to this podcast called Tea Time with Lovely Tea, and she framed it as about comfort, whose comfort are we as a society willing to compromise? Michael B. Jordan and Delroy Lindo, okay, let's expect them to just swallow that discomfort and respond with the grace and dignity that they did respond with. But God forbid, people in the audience have to hear Free Palestine, which was removed with the two hours.

Makeda 11:57

That whole dust up was, unfortunate in that it really took away from these two extraordinary men and this beautiful movie and all the accolades that this movie deserves. And also, I think it's a valid point around whose comfort is permissible, or whose comfort is prioritized. That's probably a better way to phrase

Anne 12:14

Yeah.

Caroline 12:15

And I think with, the comfort piece too, what I really, I'm really terrible with symbolism and stuff like that. I'm a much more literal person, even I could recognize, the spectrum of comfort and the spectrum of ways that that reflects, you know, so I, I really appreciated the ways the different proximity to whiteness and proximity to power and proximity to privilege were reflected, throughout. And the ways that it really reinforced subtly, but not too subtly for a dummy like me to, to recognize, the barriers and the conduits, I guess to exploitation, or, danger. Mary ends up delivering. And then also the layers of, which you took me through, through that great podcast. Was it Seeing White? And, different definitions of what is whiteness and,

Makeda 13:05

Right? Yeah.

Caroline 13:06

portrayed with the Irish, vampire, et cetera.

Makeda 13:09

And also the fact that, smoke and Stack, which let's just pause for just a minute and talk about Michael b Jordan's amazing acting skills because how can he be the one person playing two different people, and you would always know if it was smoke or if it was stack, right? just played them so differently. then Ryan Kugler's to him to light his own cigarette. I saw that and I was like, what is happening right now? How is this happening? it was fabulous.

Anne 13:36

certainly that was the most difficult scene to film. Like that was harder than the fight scenes to get the precision needed to pass off that cigarette. Yeah.

Makeda 13:44

imagine, because I know nothing about anything, in that genre or in that industry, and I already knew that there's a lot of. that happened to make that happen. so very impressed by that. But that these two men, you know, one dress like the Irish one dress like the Italian in terms of their dressed in Chicago and sort of coming down and how they accessed power while they were in Chicago and came back to the South thinking that that power was going to be enough, like the money and the wealth that they acquired. but also thinking about in line with what you're just talking about, that, the Irish and the Italians when they first came to the United States, were seen as lower class. They were not seen as white, and over time they began to be seen as white. There's an article from years ago, cannot remember it off the top of my head, but I can send it it's called, when the Irish became White. And it's sort of this narrative around how for so many years, the Irish and the Italians were all looked upon negatively and in time they began to access the privilege of whiteness the ways in which they've been able to assimilate into that and reap benefits from it as well.

Anne 15:00

Become part of the system,

Makeda 15:02

Yeah.

Caroline 15:02

On the Michael B. Jordan piece that you mentioned, I just wanted to say I saw an interesting TikTok, the actress who plays Annie, what's her name again?

Anne 15:11

aka Masaki.

Makeda 15:12

can't remember go

Caroline 15:13

she was on Kelly Clarkson or something, she was talking about how he, when he smiles as one character, he has dimples, and when he smiles as the

Anne 15:20

Cool.

Caroline 15:21

he doesn't have dimples. How? do you do that?

Makeda 15:23

How?

Caroline 15:24

I

Anne 15:24

And he wore different shoes to make himself walk differently.

Caroline 15:29

To help with his gait. Yeah. That's smart.

Anne 15:31

you think about like, okay, not only being able to look different, but then also just being able to, I mean, I'm not an actor, I've never been able to do anything like that, but to be able to act like a realistic human being while also focusing on this precision, you know, of having to say things and move in a specific way

Makeda 15:47

right.

Anne 15:48

and also just be a human being. And, with Wmi as well, like, that's not her accent, right? Like she's got this lovely English accent and so. I can't do an accent to save my life and then to act again like a human being while faking an accent. I just think, you know, it's so common we see it with actors, but I really do think it needs to be noted because it's amazing.

Makeda 16:06

It is, it is. And I do wanna say the actress's name. It's Ami Moku. I just

Anne 16:11

Ku okay. Thank you.

Makeda 16:13

her full name. but she was brilliant. And, as a bigger girl in a slightly darker skinned, I'm celebrating the fact that they gave a dark skinned, bigger black woman the chance to kiss Michael B. Jordan.

Anne 16:27

Uh, yes. Oh, she's so, she's beautiful. Um,

Caroline 16:32

She's

Anne 16:33

she's my MVP.

Makeda 16:34

she's so good in, in the movie, but she's a great actress. I've seen her in other roles and she's just amazing.

Anne 16:39

Have you seen his house that she's in?

Makeda 16:42

No,

Anne 16:43

another horror movie. Oh, it's so good. She's,

Makeda 16:45

I haven't

Anne 16:45

yeah, and she's she, she likes her horror.

Makeda 16:49

watch Lovecraft. Someone asked me to watch it, to get my opinions on some of the symbolism in Lovecraft country. I don't go to horror on my own, but I will go there to support the people who also love horror,

Caroline 17:03

Yeah.

Makeda 17:04

right.

Anne 17:05

I was wondering if she was named Annie. My name is Annie, so I love that about her. But she said, in an interview I listened to with her, she said her favorite musical is Annie. Like, she's so funny. She says she sings it every day. So I'm, I was wondering if that was her contribution, like could we name this character Annie?

Makeda 17:20

a moment because Annie is my favorite musical.

Anne 17:24

Oh, it's so good.

Makeda 17:25

when I turned 10, and by the musical, I mean the 1982 version. cause there really is no other version because

Anne 17:31

That's my version too.

Makeda 17:33

Burnett and Bernadette Peters. And Tim Craig. I mean

Anne 17:37

Yeah.

Makeda 17:38

that movie yeah, whenever I hear the name Annie, I just immediately, even when I heard it in this movie, I was like, oh, she's named after Little Orphan Annie

Anne 17:47

I am too. That's one of my parents' First dates is one of the reasons I'm named Annie. Yeah.

Makeda 17:52

that so much. Yeah, that movie to this day takes me to my happy place.

Anne 17:57

We all have that in common with when me then.'cause she loves it. Yeah.

Makeda 18:01

that

Caroline 18:02

I love it too. I was tessie when we did it in my middle

Makeda 18:05

Nice.

Caroline 18:07

goodness. Oh my

Makeda 18:07

Oh my

Caroline 18:08

Very

Anne 18:08

goodness. Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness.

Caroline 18:13

freaking out All the time.

Makeda 18:15

the time. All the time.

Anne 18:17

well, I highly recommend finding an interview with her. There's tons of podcasts where she's, featured, you know, she's from Nigeria, but she grew up in Manchester. She's now learning Aruba. She, and she talks about learning about OO for this, and she mentions how one of the many impacts of colonization is the villainization of that ancestral knowledge and that she really enjoyed reconnecting with that. Or not, I guess maybe she wasn't connected, but connecting with that ancestral knowledge,

Makeda 18:41

What's interesting for me as somebody who grew up in the Christian tradition and currently having lots of problems with the Christian tradition, I appreciated juxtaposition of the ways in which Christianity has been labeled as sort of this all saving all greats completely the thing that is going to save us all. and even in the movie, right? Sammy's father wants him to give up the devil music, quote unquote, in order to come into the church and, none of that were the things that actually ultimately saved them. It was that ancestral knowledge that while in the long run, it didn't save anybody, but it did keep them alive longer and showed them how to defeat this enemy. the first time I watched, I've seen it a few times now, just to be fair or just to acknowledge that because Michael B. Jordan, um, but also the first time I watched it, what stood out to me was. Christianity because in so much of the black church tradition, we have borrowed a lot of the master's religion

Caroline 19:45

Mm-hmm.

Makeda 19:45

and just incorporated it into our own. Even in black church, some of the theology really still mimics what the master's religion tells us needs to happen, what we have to do to be good and to get into heaven. There's so much of what, plantation slavery, what that narrative relied on was letting black people know you might suffer here, but when you get to heaven, everything will be fine. you're suffering now, but God, right. And which is not a bad narrative to have because the church has always been a safe place for the most part, for black, people. and there is a absorbing of whiteness that can sometimes happen inside, black church communities. that's a much longer conversation than, we can have here. and this is not me being critical of anyone's choice around their and what works for them. struck me in the movie, the first time I saw it was how. The spiritual aspects of it were very present for me as somebody who's deconstructed a lot of my own faith and how I saw Remic initially, not just around white supremacy, but also around Christianity and the ways in which Christianity consumes and takes away what actually ultimately is lifesaving and life giving for black communities and black bodies. That's a lot.

Caroline 21:02

you spoke about that.'cause I, I was hoping we would talk about that. I found myself trying to think a lot about the relationship between, the black community and man church, and understanding how important faith is and Christianity is for many black people in this country, but that it is the master's religion. So, um, all of that was great to hear. I think it all came together for me as well when, Sammy starts saying the Lord's Prayer and Remic, who is talking about the English coming in and taking over Ireland says, I hated those men, but the words still bring me comfort. And I

Makeda 21:37

Yeah.

Caroline 21:38

there it is.

Makeda 21:39

Yeah.

Caroline 21:39

just so well said.

Anne 21:41

I love that scene. That's one of my favorite moments. obviously there's the deeper issues there with religion and that dichotomy between it being forced on you, but also finding comfort in it. But also as a horror scene,

Makeda 21:51

Mm-hmm.

Anne 21:51

is so effective because so often in horror you turn to God, you turn to the crucifix and that is how you fight back against evil. And he's like, that's cute. I like that per right.

Makeda 22:04

yeah. I love that. Again, I don't know Ryan Cougar. So this is me putting my own opinion upon his movie. But I do think it is a, a indictment against, the Master's religion and the ways we think as black people in particular, that the master's religion and the master's way of doing faith and God is the right way. And how that actually is not liberating, but is another form of oppression

Caroline 22:31

Mm-hmm.

Makeda 22:31

we volunteer for in the face of believing that it's going to liberate us. There's this great book, by a black theologian James Cone called The Cross and the Lynching Tree, which is a really good look at. The ways in which the church is a comfort for black people, because we'd spent so much time, if we're looking at the Jim Crow era during the week, we are, we being, black bodies are out in the field picking cotton, trying to living under the threat of the violence of slavery, even if it has evolved into something different in the form of Jim Crow. And so then the Jupe joint on Fridays and Saturdays, which is what, stack smoke snacks, place is the Jupe joint is this place that we can go and not have to be under the white gaze and under the white man's oppression and his rules and the ways that he sees us, right? we are not dehumanized for our men and we are not overly sexualized for our women in these spaces. We have the freedom to just be. And James Cone talks about this in his book, Fridays and Saturdays, we go to the Duke joint for that freedom. And then on, we go to church on Sunday to also find a sense of belonging, a sense of freedom, a sense of looking around and seeing bodies that still look like you. in that book, he, he really talks about the ways in which some black people really have to wrestle with trying withholding the both end of this is the master's religion. We've picked up narratives in here and there's still comfort be found here because we are heading into holy week next week inside of the Christian tradition, we can see in Jesus's suffering, a similarity to our suffering. And then the redemption that is promised in the cross becomes a redemption that we can connect with as well. So it's a finding a way to hold the both, and that is often difficult. So we just go over to doing we've been told is right or wrong. And so then the hoodoo scenes and even the, dance scene in, I lied to you right when the, um, I forget what that character's called, but it's very, popular in New Orleans. when he came on the stage in the, at the Oscars, I thought, oh, you just made a whole bunch of white people really uncomfortable. the fact that I had that thought speaks to my own sense of needing to, continue to unlearn

Caroline 24:49

Yeah.

Makeda 24:49

seen as good and right and what's comfortable and uncomfortable. And so I'm rambling. I'm gonna stop rambling. Hopefully you got something out of what I just said.

Caroline 24:58

It was good.

Anne 25:00

Well, I think Coler was definitely playing with religious symbols like the wading into the water. And the way, REMIC is dunking Sammy at the end is very much like a subversion of a baptism ritual and you know, but he's becoming something potentially unholy rather than holy. And like Annie at the end is Madonna and child imagery. And then there's the snake, which is representing temptation and danger. There's all the scripture quoted by Sammy's dad.

Caroline 25:26

Mm-hmm.

Anne 25:26

talked about this quite a bit last week on our sugar cane episode are you familiar with that documentary Nikita?

Makeda 25:32

I've heard of it. I've not seen

Anne 25:33

But one of the men who was most likely the product of rape by a priest of his mother in a residential school is also very religious. And so he's trying to reconcile his faith with the damage that faith did to him.

Makeda 25:47

It's a tough thing to try to reconcile.

Anne 25:50

Well, let's, go back a little bit and talk about Ryan Kogler, Because this is his baby, and I think he should be applauded because it's a new story, right? So much horror these days is like another scream, another final destination, another Friday, the 13th movie, whatever. And so for him to come up with this totally new story that is so, as we said, multilayered Transcendent is really just amazing. I listened to a few interviews with him. He's great. And I love how we learn about how story becomes embedded in someone. And he talks about his mom just loving movies and going to the movies and coming back and reenacting them for him when he was too young to go. And then talks about the feeling of seeing Jurassic Park and getting addicted to that feeling and wanting to make that for other people. so yeah, he's amazing. What a genius.

Caroline 26:36

Annie did he, did he say whether he liked midnight mass or watched midnight mass?

Anne 26:41

I listened to maybe three interviews with him and he did not bring it up.

Caroline 26:45

the sunrise scene was very reminiscent,

Anne 26:47

I mean, I think you see sunrise scenes in a lot of vampire because the sunrise and the sunset is just inherently a part of vampire stories. So, I don't know. I mean, I hope you've seen Midnight Mouse.'cause it's fantastic.

Caroline 26:58

I didn't get it.

Anne 26:59

Yeah. You're like, oh my God. A sunrise and a vampire movie. We should also know Kugler Kugler's wife. Zinzi is a producer and she's also super involved. And one of the things that I think is amazing about him is I love when a director is a good guy because everybody I listened to who talked about him just talked about how open he is and the sense of trust they get. And when we say, talk about Rosemary's baby, it's like we have to kind of couch it with like, well, he's so evil. Right? But so Ryan Coogler is good and people keep wanting to work with him right. For a reason. They come back.

Makeda 27:37

I mean, I love Ryan Kler because he keeps telling black people stories,

Anne 27:41

Mm,

Makeda 27:42

it rallied

Anne 27:43

fantastic.

Makeda 27:43

it's just this great movie. But it's like, for us as a community to see the entire movie just Be Us is a, was an amazing feeling, right? To be in a theater with all black people and just celebrating all the parts of it. I loved both movies. Balled my eyes out in the second one. but yeah, he just keeps telling stories that Center Black people, and I love that.

Anne 28:07

Excited to see what he does next. one of the most interesting things, I think he said, in one of the interviews, it was the last podcast on the left interview, Caroline, that's one of

Caroline 28:15

Shocking.

Anne 28:16

that he draws this comparison that I thought was so interesting between the One Drop rule, the idea that one drop of black blood makes you legally black and the, and the idea that one drop of genre makes your film. Genre. So, although this is this amazing historical drama about Jim Crow's South, it's got drops of horror. Right. And therefore it is going to be viewed

Makeda 28:37

Mm-hmm.

Anne 28:37

And he actually brings up, I don't feel bad bringing up Rosemary's Baby.'cause he likes it too. And he talks about how that movie is really a drama about gaslighting and women's bodies, between a husband and wife. But it has these drops of horror that make it a horror film. And even a drop of horror makes a movie historically ineligible for accolades, which luckily is changing.

Makeda 28:58

Uh, it should have won Best movie. And then I'm gonna move on from that

Anne 29:01

I know I hadn't watched one Battle after another. And so then I was like, okay, I can't get mad at this yet because I, I haven't actually seen what won. And I did watch it and I stand by. That singer should have won.

Makeda 29:12

same exact same reaction. Like, I had not seen it, then I watched it and I was like, okay. And on

Anne 29:18

Yeah. I was

Makeda 29:19

sinners

Anne 29:20

meh.

Makeda 29:20

should have won that award,

Anne 29:22

Yeah,

Makeda 29:23

they didn't.'cause it's a horror movie and they don't give academy awards to horror movies.

Anne 29:26

it kind of lines up with, you know, the fact that Delroy Lin didn't win. What does he say about white people like the blues music just fine. They just don't like the people who make it. I'm not sure if I've got that line exactly right, but.

Caroline 29:37

white folks like the blues just fine. They just don't like the people who make it.

Makeda 29:41

Yeah.

Caroline 29:41

it down.

Makeda 29:42

Whiteness

Anne 29:42

that he didn't get, I mean, what was Sean Penn doing? He was just walking weird.

Makeda 29:46

the hair.

Anne 29:47

Am I?

Makeda 29:47

Like what

Anne 29:48

He had weird hair and weird expressions and he walked weird. Is that better than what Delroy Lindo did? I, I don't think it was.

Makeda 29:54

no, it was not,

Caroline 29:56

Penn problematic? No.

Anne 29:57

Is he? I don't know. Probably.

Makeda 29:59

don't know. The character in the movie is under product. Yeah.

Anne 30:02

at least, Kugler got the award for best screenplay Yeah. And the cinematography was

Makeda 30:07

Spectacular. Yeah.

Anne 30:09

beautiful. you know, those beautiful shots like Caroline, you mentioned the sunrise over the cotton fields and then the juxtaposition, I think of the beauty of these shots with the horror that we know took place in these settings historically, I thought was really interesting.

Makeda 30:23

even the choices he made around camera angle. lighting, and even how he blended in all the layers in the dance scene, and the costuming, it was all spectacular, really.

Anne 30:34

Mm-hmm.

Makeda 30:35

of it.

Caroline 30:35

won costume design?

Anne 30:36

Frankenstein, I think,

Makeda 30:38

Hmm.

Caroline 30:39

That's

Makeda 30:39

fair.

Caroline 30:40

I really liked the, I don't tend to notice things like this, so, that should say something to all of you, but like the one that they had in town when Grace, I forgot her daughter's name.

Anne 30:51

Lisa,

Makeda 30:52

Lisa, Lisa.

Anne 30:54

road.

Caroline 30:54

crosses the road and then Grace and the guys are shot and all that stuff. I was like, this is really putting me in this world,

Makeda 31:01

Mm-hmm.

Anne 31:02

That was one of my favorite shots. Yeah.

Makeda 31:03

And the symbolism of just her being able to do that. Right. And the, the, that says about that family's ability to cross that Very clear divide. They could very easily move back and forth across it. And so there's all this, as I think, Annie, you mentioned it at the beginning, these ideas and thoughts around proximity to whiteness and what the privilege that that gives you and what that actually means for the concept of liberation, the concept of allyship, the concept of belonging, all of that gets called into question. If you look at the married character, right? Here is a black girl who passes as white, has married a white man. And even, stack was encouraging her go be white because it's worth it,

Caroline 31:49

Yeah, Although in that scene, actually I was, and Annie, I credit you with this, when he says he needs catfish for a hundred people, I was thinking of how you mentioned way back when in like our third or fourth episode when we did Heaven's Gate and I said, it must be so easy to take the same order from all those people. And you're like, if I go back to the kitchen and they want, 12 of the same order or 30 of the same order, we're gonna be in trouble. I'm like, how are they not more stressed about all of a sudden I need catfish for a hundred people tonight.

Anne 32:18

Yeah, the party planning aspect, I was kind of like, they really threw that together pretty quickly. They even got the fairy lights up.

Makeda 32:24

Yeah.

Caroline 32:24

How long

Makeda 32:25

Yeah.

Caroline 32:25

day? This

Makeda 32:26

And.

Caroline 32:26

day.

Makeda 32:27

made a whole sign in time

Anne 32:29

Yeah,

Makeda 32:30

it just, It was wild.

Anne 32:31

well one of the, my favorite scenes is right at the end, I think it's as smoke is preparing to take down the clan and it flashes back to the party planning and like everybody getting ready and there's this footage of dropping off the sharecroppers. And I just thought that was a really beautiful, heartwarming scene that this is what the Klan was coming to destroy this community. And it is really poignant seeing that.

Makeda 32:55

Community matters in, in ways that I think, another friend and I were just having a conversation around how much individualism is such a characteristic of America, right? that's an American, or maybe even just a western way of thinking individually, and how much harm? I just watched a video before I came on here on TikTok. Don't judge me or feel free to judge me,

Anne 33:15

Caroline will not judge you for TikTok. That's her favorite thing.

Caroline 33:18

and now I, now I have another person to send on my tiktoks too.

Makeda 33:21

but send away. I don't post a single thing on TikTok, but I do love scrolling on TikTok. it's a mom who's postpartum, baby's only three weeks old, and she has no community. is, I think, one of the byproducts and one of the Harmful, problematic parts of individualism is that then there's no community. We don't live generationally anymore. And so we, we carry our burdens in ways that we are perhaps not meant to do. They think in black communities, we know community. I mean, the cookout over the summer is gonna be amazing. Why? Because I'll see my cousins that I haven't seen all year and my aunts and people that are not my, biological family, but are still family, right. that's still inherent in what we do. And I'm West Indian, right? So I'm Jamaican. I grew up in the States. but I think the, the diaspora, we might show up, that need for community and the village is really important. What stood out to me around the destruction that happened, right? The violence that happened. Normally the clan strikes at night because then they get to hide under the shadow of dark

Caroline 34:21

right?

Makeda 34:22

it got flipped so that the vampires violence was at night. And then the clans. Violence was coming during the day, in the light of day following. Again, the whole symbolism in the various parts that are there in the darkness. When you would expect the violence in one way, it shows up in another way and in the light when you think you're safe, the violence still shows up in this unpredictable, but still predictable way, for me, as I was looking at that, I was like, black bodies are just never safe in the dark, in our own spaces, during the light, whatever. We're just not safe. And I think having the plan come during the day, is part of that for me, I think he was just reinforcing that idea.

Caroline 35:03

thought that was interesting too. I was like, why would he wait on that? Like why couldn't he, because then he could kill more black people.'cause they're all partying. But I guess they thought they were still there and they were gonna come out But I was also thinking about this idea of like vampires and joining the vampire community being more like a, system. it's like the system will come to get you no matter where you are and no matter what time it

Makeda 35:27

Mm-hmm.

Caroline 35:27

then bad guys will come and get you when it's convenient for them or whatever. And then, you know, like all day or whatever. But that's just like, a level bad guy. cause it's, they're pathetic losers. And I enjoyed that scene. So I was like smiling and laughing. I loved that scene so much.

Anne 35:42

Can we just talk about, Michael b Jordan's smokes look of annoyance when he's kind of reaching for his baby and he's just so, oh, like, fuck this guy. Right.

Makeda 35:52

Right.

Anne 35:53

That was satisfying.

Caroline 35:54

it

Anne 35:54

Yeah.

Caroline 35:55

satisfying. It was the best anyway.

Anne 35:56

Well, speaking of the system and the temptation of the system and whether or not it makes sense to join it or reject it, let's talk about Remic. What's Remic deal? Just wants to start a band. I mean, like what does he want? I, I think he was played so well because there's something about him that is both so menacing and so alluring. Like he switches back and forth between being persuasive

Makeda 36:16

Yeah.

Anne 36:17

then horrifying. Like when he starts to talk to Grace in her native language and he's speaking about oral sex with her husband, and it is so scary and invasive and painful because her husband's now dead, he's so evil. But then he is also really persuasive at times.

Makeda 36:34

Which I think speaks to the system that he represents, right? The system can be very seductive and very appealing and very alluring. we often say sometimes, not all skin folk or kinfolk. that has to do with the fact that when some black folks get proximal whiteness, it's as if, they forget that they're black because they have proximity to power. I'm looking at you, Clarence Thomas, right? And so they forget that they're black because they've been enticed into and surrendered parts of themselves in order to get that proximity, in order to get that sense of, quote, unquote belonging we all

Anne 37:13

Benefits that come with being a part of the system.

Makeda 37:17

right. It will reward you as long as you follow their rules, do what they want you to do, they're going to reward you. And so it is alluring to get pulled in in some subtle ways. It's not, I'm not gonna give it all up at once, but I'll give a little bit here and then I'll give a little bit here and then I'll give a little bit here. And then before I know it, I've given up all of me to a system that was never actually designed for me. And then there are the times when it's overt and it's saying, I want you, I want to consume you, I want to take you over. both can be hard to resist.

Anne 37:50

Also, there's the economic temptation. Like they, They make it very clear. They have a lot of like backroom discussions that they don't have the money to keep this going because of the barriers that their clientele face being sharecroppers. So like they have to make that choice. Do you lead in the threat for economic benefit. And I think a lot of people have to make that choice. And, and then that ties into Mary as well, being the one who can cross that boundary since she passes.

Caroline 38:14

I was so glad to see that reflected. I think the term institutional racism has, you know, been floating around since Black Lives Matter has begun. And I think a lot of people just hear it as white noise and they think it doesn't exist anymore'cause we had a black president, et cetera, et cetera. I think it in real black and white terms, no pun intended, that like, no, literally, here's an example of a way in which the institution does not allow for the success of black people in the way that they would want it. because of this, because of that. And that's a very concrete example that is inarguable,

Makeda 38:48

Mm-hmm.

Anne 38:49

What did we think about the Rocky Road to Dublin scene where everybody's circling him? I think it rightfully probably is overshadowed by, I lied to you because that's better, but it was still awesome, right? I've worked in an Irish pub and I've seen these sort of musicians and I love the way Stack and Mary and Cornbread are just so, I guess, possessed, and it's just really, I, I don't know, entrancing and like diabolical. It was such a good scene.

Caroline 39:15

yeah, It was, and I I don't think you know that Remic was Irish until then. Right? Like,'cause he's hidden his accent. He

Anne 39:22

It really comes out when he says the Our father. That's when you really hear it, right?

Caroline 39:26

And he talks about, the English coming in and taking their land or whatever. And so thought that was really interesting because in the beginning you think it's the whole proximity to whiteness. He looks white, he has no accent, et cetera, et cetera. And then you hear that he's Irish. And at one point in time he was no differently, well, not no differently, but you know, he

Makeda 39:45

Mm-hmm.

Anne 39:46

What do we think of the moment when he it's one of his best expressions when he's so offended about being associated with the clan and he's like, sorry,

Makeda 39:55

No,

Anne 39:55

do we think of that scene?

Makeda 39:56

we are for equality. We are

Anne 39:59

Yeah.

Makeda 40:00

Right? the deception that is so, prevalent at times, I heard someone say a long time ago, and I think Caroline, I talked, I mentioned this to you when we worked together, that allyship is one thing, but being willing to be an accomplice is another. when I'm an accomplice, there's a risk involved. I can be an ally, right? So remic language, I'm not racist. I am not bad, look what I have done. We are for equality, Sometimes allyship can sound good

Caroline 40:30

Mm-hmm.

Makeda 40:31

A sacrifice is needed, a risk needs to be taken, and then the allyship no longer feels as comfortable. And so people can walk away from it. Remy at the door was trying to seduce them, the seduction of the system to pull you in. What strikes me, Annie, to go back to your question around the scene of the Irish jig, name just went right out my head.

Anne 40:53

Road to Dublin.

Makeda 40:54

Rocky Road to Dublin. that is not a song that black folk know,

Anne 40:58

Mm

Makeda 40:58

sorry. That is not a song that black folks in

Anne 41:00

I.

Makeda 41:01

know. So, um, uh, in case any of my, my black Irish friends are listening to this, black folk in the south, in the 1930s did not know that song

Caroline 41:12

Mm-hmm.

Makeda 41:12

and that scene up to use your said Annie, that it got a little bit overshadowed by, I lied to you, which is all blackness, like all of it, the beat, the words, the music, the various instruments that get used, the ways you feel it in your body, right?

Caroline 41:31

Mm-hmm.

Makeda 41:31

those two things up and that it was the music that drew and his two cronies,

Caroline 41:37

The gift,

Makeda 41:38

Right to the point earlier of they want our music, but they don't want our blues. Right? They don't want our pain and our suffering that gives us the music. And so song and them dancing to this song for me, it was a full representation of they have been fully consumed by the system.

Caroline 41:57

Yeah.

Makeda 41:58

that they, were bled and became vampires, but that is sort of sealing the deal of there is no awareness of their blackness any longer. They have been subsumed by this character, this new identity, if you will, and have lost themselves even in the fact that it's a hive mind now. Right? So Reik said he knew Bose's mind, and which means that he knows all of their minds, right? So all identity gets lost. that is one of the ways that I think causes us to give up ourselves for the sake of having some measure of power, some measure of proximity, some measure of acceptance. We've gotta give up something within ourselves to have that

Caroline 42:41

Mm-hmm.

Makeda 42:42

that scene for me, Annie really says. are fully a part of the system and are dancing to the beat and music of the system.

Anne 42:51

music.

Makeda 42:51

His music,

Anne 42:52

And, presumably when Remic dies, they get it back. Because we learn by the end that they've been alive. Mary and Stack have survived for 60 years and they have made the choice not to go after Sammy.

Makeda 43:06

Mm-hmm.

Anne 43:06

So I'm assuming they get something back when that hive mind is shut off. By the way, that final scene, I watched this back in when it first came out roughly right, like last summer-ish. And um, I think I turned it off before the epilogue. And so when I watched it again this time, I was like, what? They come back. I just totally missed that and it's such a good scene. It's, it bookends it so well that final line about being. The last time they were free, the last time he saw his brother. It's so good. And, and just also the opportunity to see Mary and stack in those clothes was fun.

Makeda 43:42

nineties clothing. Peak nineties.

Anne 43:44

Peak nine days. Yeah. Alright, well, let's talk a little bit more about some of the other characters. I'd like to focus on Delta Slim Played by Delroy Lindo. What did we think of him?

Makeda 43:57

Loved him.

Caroline 43:57

Yeah. Moving. I mean,

Anne 44:00

We all speechless.

Caroline 44:01

Yeah. I I just don't know how to not sound basic, I guess.

Anne 44:08

I thought he was interesting. Again, I, I listened to an interview with him. He has like this in real life, this like Shakespearean accent, not English, but he's like, what? Who?

Caroline 44:18

Oh, does he do

Anne 44:19

And yeah, he does a what and a who. See, he sounds so theater in real life. Um, anyway. I highly recommend just going into the podcast app and just searching for these different actors, and you can find every single one of them talking about their experience. And it's, it's fascinating. But talks about, being the drunk, that he's self medicating, and, that his life experiences have kind of driven him to this. And, you know, there's a reason that people turn to alcohol when they're trapped, when everything is stolen. And I think we've talked about this with the way different communities have been, treated in history and then they are blamed for the self-medicating behavior.

Makeda 44:54

Yeah.

Caroline 44:54

mean, we talked about that a lot last week as well with sugar cane and the indigenous people.

Anne 44:58

Yeah.

Makeda 44:59

I love that character all the reasons, right? He's like the drunk uncle that everybody loves, but can be a problem, but also is not really a

Anne 45:08

Yeah.

Makeda 45:09

but his telling of that lynching story, that scene was, I was just heart wrenched with

Anne 45:16

Should have won.

Makeda 45:17

as he was retelling it. And how immediately after he started, you know, like humming and like

Anne 45:25

Yeah.

Makeda 45:26

making music

Anne 45:28

Doesn't he hit the dashboard? Maybe.

Makeda 45:30

And then stack

Anne 45:30

Yeah.

Makeda 45:31

uh, what's his name to start playing Sammy, preacher boy to start playing, right? And music soothes our sorrows and

Anne 45:39

Mm-hmm.

Makeda 45:40

our wounds he had no words, but he had the vocal vibrations to say what he needed to say without using words. that is just this powerful representation for me of how. Again, the juke joint and the blues gives language and resistance when it's risky, potentially deadly to resist or try to stand up against the powers that be we can still do that and we can do that in the juke joint, and we can do that through blues and through our music. but yeah. I love that scene.

Anne 46:17

The way he yells out, hold your heads. And then it reminded me, when, when I first watched this, we were preparing Caroline to do our Jaws episode. And so I was deep into the Quint monologue about the USS, Indianapolis, that's what this scene reminded me of. The way he kind of starts with a light tone and then the way his expression changes as the story takes a darker shift and you can hear like his flashback. And I think that was something that they went back and forth on as to whether or not to include the sounds of the lynching. And I ultimately, I think it was a pretty powerful choice.

Caroline 46:48

I think so too.

Makeda 46:49

Definitely.

Anne 46:50

My other favorite, slim moment is just as I lied to you, is starting, it flashes back to that quiet moment of mentorship

Makeda 46:58

Yeah.

Anne 46:59

says, you know, and this ties back into our discussion about religion. The blues wasn't forced on us like that religion, we brought that with us from home.

Makeda 47:06

Yeah,

Anne 47:07

it's sacred, it's big. it really, contrasts with, Sammy's father who is telling him, put that guitar down. Right. And, saying, you know, you're gonna attract the devil. And I mean, he's, he's basically what, like the dad from Footloose, right? Like he's a preacher saying like, no music.

Makeda 47:25

right,

Anne 47:26

Yeah.

Makeda 47:27

not make that correlation. Yeah,

Anne 47:29

He's like the first thing I thought,

Makeda 47:30

it's the conformity, Of

Caroline 47:32

Mm-hmm.

Makeda 47:32

play that music. that is evil. The hoodoo, the, secular music, right. That's all devil worship, you gotta conform and do what we want to do, to do and maybe this was not intentional, but the fact that everyone in the church was wearing white,

Caroline 47:48

Yeah.

Anne 47:48

I think everything was intentional.

Makeda 47:50

Yeah, yeah,

Anne 47:51

Kugler, he's doing things for a reason. Um, I also was thinking, they all seem surprised, which I thought was interesting. That means there's not much overlap between the people who went to the juke joint and the people who are at morning mass.

Caroline 48:05

don't think they call it mass. Service,

Anne 48:07

Service. I'm Catholic

Makeda 48:08

Yeah. It's just

Anne 48:09

Okay.

Makeda 48:09

It's just Sunday service.

Caroline 48:10

you know? Yeah.

Makeda 48:11

Yeah.

Anne 48:12

I also think it's interesting, the choice of song. And again, I believe everything's deliberate. This little light of mine, I'm gonna let it shine. And then he's telling him, don't let that light shine, conform.

Makeda 48:20

Mm-hmm.

Caroline 48:21

Although I didn't write down whether it was Smoke. or stack who said this, but He said, I know plenty of musicians. I ain't never met a happy one.

Anne 48:28

Smoke. He doesn't want him to do it. He's, he like tries

Makeda 48:31

Just to tell him.

Anne 48:32

to threatens to kill him. Right. I was a little confused by that. What do we think of that scene? Why didn't he want Sammy to pursue that?

Makeda 48:38

I think what he didn't want Sammy to do was to leave this familiar place thinking that it was going to be different

Caroline 48:46

Mm-hmm.

Makeda 48:46

else. Right. So when Smoke described Chicago, he said something along the lines of is just like Mississippi, but it's not home. It's Mississippi with skyscrapers

Anne 48:57

buildings.

Makeda 48:58

like, or tall buildings. Right. but it's just not home. And so I think what he was trying to get him to see was that it's really not that different out there. If you're gonna leave what's familiar, what you know, your people thinking, you're going to see some kind of promised land, which is a lot of the ways that a lot of people thought about the North, that it was gonna be some promised land, the great migration and all the things, but it does not turn out to be that. I think that's what Smoke was trying to get Sammy to understand.

Anne 49:25

lot of people say. Like the northeast, might be voting liberal, but it's racist in a different way. like there's a lot of talking the talk, right, saying the right things, voting in a way that is not oppressive, but then there's still a separation.

Makeda 49:38

Mm-hmm.

Caroline 49:39

Yeah.

Anne 49:39

Well, let's talk a little bit more about, Preacher Boy Sammy and that song, a i I, maybe we've already said what we need to about that song, but he was only 19 when this was filmed and Jesus Christ. What a voice.

Makeda 49:50

the first time he talked in the movie, I was like, is that what is what? How did such a deep voice come out of someone so small?

Anne 49:59

I know.

Caroline 50:00

mean to be superficial, but do you, do we all remember the chocolate, rain video? The guy, he was like a teenager, but he had the deepest voice ever.

Makeda 50:08

Uh, yeah. Um,

Anne 50:11

I don't.

Caroline 50:11

where you're just like, that does not, I did not expect

Makeda 50:14

not expecting that.

Caroline 50:15

that. pairing,

Anne 50:16

Yeah. And I love the way stack It's when they're in the car and he just like, he hears him for the first time and Whoops, with delight,

Makeda 50:23

Yeah,

Anne 50:24

moment of joy, like, oh my God, you can sing. And he really wants to encourage him,

Makeda 50:29

yeah.

Anne 50:29

So that's another contrast between the twins I guess he's representing that, being blessed with talent. But talent calls predators, and I think you can see this with, black talent in the real world, and who wants to exploit that gift?

Makeda 50:44

Mm-hmm.

Caroline 50:45

especially

Makeda 50:45

you have to give up, And what you have to give up to have that success. STAT could see Sammy's gifts and Sammy's gift was, you know, Annie is narrating at the beginning and she narrates it a again when he sings. I lied to you of how there's gifts and then there is a Annie, to use your word, transcendent type of gift. Which is what Sammy possesses. I think smoke is maybe more acutely aware than stack is, and I don't know that, that, what I'm about to say is necessarily a hundred percent true. Smoke, I think sees. The price they've paid for access to the power that they have, and perhaps stack still that moment anyway, when they're in the truck and he hears, Sammy still thinks that, his gift could be a way out.

Anne 51:33

He's more optimistic

Makeda 51:34

optimistic. Yes.

Anne 51:36

and that makes sense. With smoke being the caretaker. He's the one that killed the abusive father. Right. He's the one who's worried about the money

Makeda 51:43

Yeah,

Anne 51:43

and he's the one who's lost a baby. Right. So he's, had those extra traumatic experiences.

Caroline 51:49

I was trying to look up, because back when we started this, I was always like researching name meanings and stuff like that. And so I was really interested in smoke and stack and why they were named what they were named. And so I was reading a lot about how represents something intangible, something ambiguous, something that can shift between and go across planes and worlds and things like that. And is n. Non-conforming and not containable. And then stack is about accumulation and like hierarchy and building and gaining, you know,

Anne 52:17

Hmm. Interesting.

Caroline 52:19

yeah.

Makeda 52:19

Mm-hmm.

Caroline 52:20

it makes sense that would be like, oh, you can utilize this to make money

Makeda 52:25

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Caroline 52:26

would be like kind of being able to see through,

Anne 52:29

Hmm. See through the smoke

Makeda 52:31

Yeah.

Anne 52:32

and you say you're not good at subtext. Caroline, come on. That was great.

Caroline 52:35

to look it up. I was just like, what do these names mean?

Anne 52:41

One other thing I wanted to say about. I lied to you. I, I mean, I think we've talked about it. Like, it's just so good. And, I love the way it pans up. We start to see the sparks of the fire then it goes up to the roof and then it pans out to the three vampires

Caroline 52:56

Mm-hmm.

Anne 52:57

discovered them. And it's just, I'm getting chills talking about it. And that fire was real. they actually set the roof on fire.

Caroline 53:03

Wow. Dangerous.

Anne 53:05

I don't know if it was the roof of that building, but they set a roof on fire.

Makeda 53:08

roof on fire.

Anne 53:09

A roof on fire.

Makeda 53:10

fire.

Anne 53:11

Yeah. Well, I wanna quote to Nana Reve do the author of the Reformatory. She's also, a professor or she does like a course at UCLA, I think. And she says no matter what their backgrounds, audience members report feeling lifted into the screen, making sinners the most immersive film going experience I can remember since I saw the original Star Wars and a theater with my father. So yeah, the choreography, the costume design, the camera movement, the music, it's transcendent the word of the day for me.

Caroline 53:38

immersive was a good word too.

Makeda 53:39

cause you really do get pulled in. If you think about that scene, Annie, the one with the, when they were in the juke joint, as lied to me, is, I lied to you rather, is being sung and experienced. We're not just watching a song, we are experiencing the song right along as different decades come in and out. And, I read somewhere that the ballet dancer in the movie was actually inspired by Misty Copeland's first, principle, prima ballerina role that she did in something called Mystical Fire or something. I think I am the name of the thing. the, the fact that it was inspired by Misty Copeland, who then did it at the Academy Awards, was so beautiful. and she did it in front of Timothy Chalamet, which we're just not gonna, we're gonna ignore that little piece. But you

Anne 54:32

Right. Okay.

Makeda 54:33

that's all we need to say. but yeah, you get pulled in and, Caroline, you talked earlier of. When Lisa was crossing the street, how we just, we were with her as that was happening. It wasn't just that we watched her do it, creating 3D kind of effect without actually making it a 3D kind of an effect.

Anne 54:51

Some really amazing shots. Now we wanted to talk about the Choctaw as well, Yeah. One of my criticisms, one of my only criticisms was I wanted more from them, and my first instinct was like. I want them to come back. And that is kind of classic filmmaking, right? But then there's this podcast called Horror Joy podcast. And they interviewed, Brianna Cox, who's just released, who's a horror writer called indigent, Indi indigent. she calls the Choctaw Indians the anti checkoffs gun. And I thought that was very cool. They just don't come back, which is smart. They know when to get the hell out. And it also reflects the history of ignoring native wisdom. So I, once I was enlightened to perhaps why Kugler made that decision, I was like, oh, that's good

Makeda 55:32

I think it was the erasure of indigenous wisdom, and who got to hear that wisdom. was told to this racist couple who didn't wanna listen to them and then suffered as a result of it. And I wonder if they had had a chance to say it to members of the black community if they would've heard them. And so I think the way that their wisdom was not listened to, their connection to the land was completely ignored. and then they were erased. We, we didn't see them again, which I think speaks again to that erasure piece of the system.

Caroline 56:03

yeah. Good.

Anne 56:04

now, is there anything else we wanna say about any of these characters? Remic, cornbread, Lene. we've talked about the Choctaw. Uh, one more thing I wanted to say about Delta Slim is that another religious aspect. He sacrifices himself for Sammy,

Caroline 56:18

Mm-hmm.

Anne 56:19

he dies with his arms out. So there's some real clear crucifixion imagery there.

Makeda 56:23

And also, we had that mentoring moment earlier, right before I

Anne 56:27

That's so good. Yeah.

Makeda 56:28

here he is giving his life for this young man that he believes in and that he wants to support and have him understand what their history and legacy is as musicians is just so powerful. The whole movie was just so good.

Anne 56:42

So

Caroline 56:42

Mm-hmm.

Makeda 56:43

oh, what is his name? Big guy. He was the bouncer

Anne 56:47

Corn bread

Makeda 56:47

Cornbread. Thank

Anne 56:48

corn.

Makeda 56:48

I kept thinking Chucky and I was like, that is not right. Um, exactly, exactly. Um, cornbread, when he came back as the vampire I was like, you are hysterical. are you not

Anne 57:01

Yeah.

Makeda 57:01

But he was so funny,

Caroline 57:03

do I know you? And it's from eight Mile. He said,

Makeda 57:06

right. Um,

Anne 57:06

Oh, is he? That's such a big movie for you. Will you bring that one up a lot, Caroline? Eight mile.

Caroline 57:11

I, I really have a huge crush on Eminem.

Anne 57:13

Okay.

Caroline 57:14

Eminem

Anne 57:14

Um, oh, does he wanna be a guest?

Caroline 57:17

Yeah. Yeah. You can be our next guest. very

Anne 57:19

Well, the

Makeda 57:20

we go.

Anne 57:20

Kler wrote that role with Omar Miller in mind. Right? He wrote that for him.

Makeda 57:25

He pulled that

Anne 57:26

Yeah, he's great.

Makeda 57:27

he was really funny. He was good. He did the role, all kinds of justice.

Caroline 57:31

was also thinking like, man, overalls are such a pain when you have to pee. Like I probably wouldn't warned them if I was drinking.

Anne 57:38

But maybe it speaks to the fact that people probably just didn't have a lot of clothes. Like if that was a clothing choice that made sense for the work he was doing.

Caroline 57:46

that's true. Maybe not a belt.

Anne 57:48

No belts. Yeah. Well, belt, I imagine belts would've been pretty expensive. Leather buckles, right? Like, And maybe not for sale at the company store with the company coins.

Caroline 57:56

Mm-hmm.

Anne 57:57

Any comment on Lene Who gets killed, but she gets the, what's his name? Sammy's, um,

Caroline 58:04

boy, Sammy.

Anne 58:04

preacher Boys. I am blanking on. It's not a juke joint at the end, a music place. His club pretty names his club After Prolene at the end, a music place.

Makeda 58:16

a place. That's awesome. I love it.

Anne 58:19

I was like, why can't I think of like the simplest word? Okay.

Caroline 58:22

superficial thing, which is that both she and Mary, are wearing things that I would not wanna sweat in. I would have like boob, sweat stains, you know, like this very

Anne 58:33

Beautiful outfits though. I mean,

Caroline 58:36

I could never

Anne 58:37

yeah.

Caroline 58:37

for a million reasons, but the one that came to the forefront of my mind boob sweat.

Anne 58:43

Mississippi dancing inside a probably not very well.

Caroline 58:48

that. I'm

Anne 58:48

Yeah.

Caroline 58:50

I'm like, I couldn't handle that dress.

Makeda 58:52

That's

Anne 58:52

I did have a superficial comment on Parlin too. I was like, just ate the garlic.

Caroline 58:57

Yeah, seriously.

Makeda 58:59

it's just do it. Your life is in danger here, girl. Just do it.

Anne 59:03

Like smoke is not messing around. He will shoot you. We have seen that, he shot Mary without even thinking about it. Right. When she went after his brother, it was I immediate reaction and shot that guy at the beginning, that scene where

Caroline 59:16

you

Anne 59:16

teaches the young girl to negotiate

Caroline 59:18

me

Anne 59:19

and then they, and he finds out that, somebody, is trying to steal from him and he thinks about it and he still shoots him, right? So, yeah, you don't wanna mess around with smoke, eat the garlic.

Makeda 59:27

Right.

Caroline 59:27

it was a fair point. Why didn't she throw the non pickled ones at the vampire and save the pickled ones for eating? I guess it wasn't a

Makeda 59:33

I think she just

Anne 59:34

I don't think she had much time

Caroline 59:36

Yeah.

Makeda 59:36

think she just grabbed what was available. I think Prolene left a impression on, Sammy Wright from the very beginning. in terms of his naming his. not bar club after her,

Anne 59:47

Music place.

Makeda 59:47

the music place after her is they went through a pretty traumatic thing together,

Anne 59:53

Mm-hmm.

Makeda 59:54

something that marked him literally in

Anne 59:56

Yeah.

Makeda 59:56

body, but also marked him in his soul, that he carried with him and kept, his dad wanted him to drop the guitar. And

Anne 1:00:06

And he's still clutching it in that final scene. Driving one handed. Yeah. song was great too. I mean, again, overshadowed because there's so many great pieces of music in this, but she was magnetic.

Makeda 1:00:17

Mm-hmm.

Caroline 1:00:17

And free, she just, I just watched her, she seemed so her whole body was doing it, you know?

Makeda 1:00:23

Mm. Yeah you're gonna wanna pull this out, Annie. It's probably helpful that she probably just had an orgasm because,

Anne 1:00:30

have to pull that out.

Makeda 1:00:31

because,

Caroline 1:00:32

up.

Makeda 1:00:33

because Sammy found her button right. And so she's probably

Anne 1:00:38

He's feeling pretty good.

Caroline 1:00:38

Yeah.

Makeda 1:00:40

she, she's real, real loose after

Anne 1:00:42

Yeah.

Makeda 1:00:42

So, very free.

Caroline 1:00:43

I would not wanna be wearing that dress.

Anne 1:00:46

Yeah. I wanna talk a little bit more about Annie and Smoke and their, grief. Ryan Coogler talks about how you can characterize someone by their actions and who they say they are. And he says that if you ask smoke, who are you? He would say, I'm a soldier. But if you look at his actions, he's a father,

Caroline 1:01:04

Mm-hmm.

Anne 1:01:04

That we see him, go and put the flowers on the grave and we see the way he reaches for that child. And I feel like I'm gonna cry just talking about it, but I think that's an important thing that they have. that bond that can drive people apart. Like a lot of people who lose a child, they break up, right? So it's especially tragic.

Makeda 1:01:21

calling Smoke A Father calls to mind what you said earlier, Annie, that he really was a caretaker, He's taking

Anne 1:01:27

Yeah.

Makeda 1:01:28

Sammy and he's taking care of Stack and he's taking care of the B, like he's just a caretaker. paternal energy can find other ways to find expression when it can't find its original way to be expressed.

Anne 1:01:38

Mm-hmm.

Makeda 1:01:39

and so he finds all these other ways. And again, I really love the scene when he first comes back to Annie and he says, I never seen no demon. I never seen no devil. I ain't never,

Anne 1:01:51

Just power.

Makeda 1:01:52

it is just power. Exactly right. And then she says, well, how, you know, my prayers or my, Practices and things that I've done. How do you know that's not what's kept you safe? Right. And then what's

Anne 1:02:03

Yeah.

Makeda 1:02:03

is after they consummate, you know, they have sex and they do all the things, the very next scene is remic dropping out the sky or falling or doing whatever he's doing. So he hadn't seen a devil. He hadn't seen a demon. And now one's come in.

Caroline 1:02:17

the first thing she says to him is, you're a fool.

Makeda 1:02:19

Mm-hmm.

Anne 1:02:20

because he is ambitious and he thinks perhaps with money he can.

Makeda 1:02:24

Mm-hmm.

Anne 1:02:24

Transcend

Makeda 1:02:25

Yeah.

Anne 1:02:25

the barriers around them. does she call it? Devil money or demon money. I can't remember exactly what she says. Blood money. Yeah. And that,

Caroline 1:02:33

money comes from blood.

Anne 1:02:34

And that reflects, you know, Reiks desire to absorb them. I hope that if I was in a horror movie like Annie, I would be the one has watched lots of horror movies. I know about the Sunset, Caroline. And then I would be the one to notice and respond to the danger from the first tingle of doubt. And she's ready. She's like, all right, garlic, wooden steaks. Like she knows

Caroline 1:02:56

I actually wrote down the women know, when Remic is at the door and he is like seducing them or whatever, all the men are like, Hmm. And the women are

Anne 1:03:05

kind of laughing when he

Caroline 1:03:06

uh,

Anne 1:03:06

singing.

Caroline 1:03:07

there's one shot of Annie and Mary, and they're both just like, I don't know about this. Like, this

Anne 1:03:12

Yeah.

Caroline 1:03:12

there's something wrong

Makeda 1:03:13

Mm-hmm.

Caroline 1:03:14

And

Anne 1:03:14

Women's intuition.

Caroline 1:03:15

they're chuckling. They don't think it's a big deal,

Makeda 1:03:18

Mm-hmm.

Anne 1:03:18

Another song that doesn't get enough discussion, um, is pick Poor Robin Clean. Right. That's, Renick's intention is to take everything he can. Yeah.

Makeda 1:03:29

All the way down to their souls.

Anne 1:03:32

Have we talked enough about Mary? there was a part of me that really disliked her at the beginning because of the way she's making a scene in town about, stack leaving her. And I was like, you are dangerous. Like, she, he could get killed because of that.

Caroline 1:03:47

Right.

Makeda 1:03:47

I read an article, actually the article that I said to you guys of how she wants both, she wants to be black but then doesn't want the consequences of being black. and she wants to fit in with white folks'cause she wants all the privilege of whiteness and doesn't understand. She's straddling both and belonging to neither

Anne 1:04:06

limbo.

Makeda 1:04:06

in the ways making exactly. her anger at Stack feels a little misplaced. has me wondering if she's really mad at herself choosing the whiteness and leaning

Anne 1:04:20

Hmm.

Makeda 1:04:20

that. But also how does she feel about herself as a black person? Because she calls her grandfather, my mama's daddy. She doesn't say My grand. Like, there's some distance between her and this part of her that is an integral to use the one drop thing from earlier part of her identity. And it's almost like she wants to pick it up when she wants to and put it down when she wants to. That's just not

Anne 1:04:44

Yeah.

Makeda 1:04:44

works.

Anne 1:04:45

Have either of you read the vanishing half? I haven't read it, but I've bought it and I think it, from what I've heard, it ties into this. It's about passing, it's about two sisters, I think, and one can pass and one can't,

Makeda 1:04:55

they are sisters, but I can't remember is if they're twins. but at, at the

Anne 1:04:58

Okay.

Makeda 1:04:58

they're sisters. Caroline, were you gonna say something?

Caroline 1:05:01

I wasn't sure, and again, I'm so bad at subtext or whatever and, So I also was watching it just being like, oh, I think he's assuming that's what she wants, but I haven't actually heard her express that's what she wants. I felt like she was angry with him for assuming it, that she really loved him and that she would've been with him, but was just sort of assuming that she wanted the proximity of power. But I probably could have missed things.

Anne 1:05:27

Did she have a choice though? Like the way she looks? Could she have married him? Could she have stayed with Stack? I don't think.

Caroline 1:05:33

I

Makeda 1:05:33

here's the thing about being as light-skinned as she is, right? So she is, she could pass for white. there are lots of people who could pass for white who exist in the black community. So, and especially in the 1930s, If she had chosen Stack, if Stack had stayed and she chosen to be with someone who was black, she was gonna be a part of the black community and it would be known that she was a part of the black community.

Anne 1:05:53

So that was an option.

Makeda 1:05:54

so it

Anne 1:05:54

Okay.

Makeda 1:05:55

an option. Yes. even the fact that she was with, she was in love with Stack and that her mother. Raised smoke and stack. Right. So she grew up around these boys and around the black community, even if she wasn't fully in it because her mama's daddy raised her so that she would survive the clan. Right. So there was still a separation. But if she grew up with Stack and Smoke, who are well known in the black community, there's no way she also would not have had that

Anne 1:06:24

It's an option.

Caroline 1:06:24

Yeah.

Anne 1:06:25

So she might feel very betrayed and abandoned. can we talk a little bit about grace and her, come on in motherfuckers moment.

Makeda 1:06:32

Come

Anne 1:06:33

we think?

Makeda 1:06:34

So disappointed.

Caroline 1:06:35

I was really mad and I actually was curious whether, like, we said before, everything in this movie feels intentional, right? And so you're like, okay, the one Asian person is the person who says, come in. was that intentional. I did not research for a very, very long time, but could not find anything that said that it was intentional necessarily. Other than the invitation represents a willingness to assimilate or, or be, what's the word I'm looking for?

Anne 1:07:06

She's saving herself at the expense of others, potentially. Right. She's prioritizing,

Caroline 1:07:10

herself.

Anne 1:07:12

you know, she's willing to fight.

Caroline 1:07:13

willing to play, know, in a way that is, placating, I guess, you know, not trying to actively commit and not trying to actively not commit, but, being sort of in between. And I was curious about the choice of the only Asian person playing that role,

Makeda 1:07:29

The only Asian person willing to cause harm to everyone for the sake of saving her daughter for, for the sake of something that was important to her.

Caroline 1:07:38

Fear. Out of fear.

Makeda 1:07:39

Yeah, totally out of fear. and the use of her daughter was intentional from Remic to Cougar, making that choice. We talked about earlier that the chose could. Move back and forth between the

Anne 1:07:52

Yeah.

Makeda 1:07:53

the black communities, right? They straddle that line. and there is this idea of racial hierarchy even though Asians have more proximity to whiteness. The model minority myth and that piece of their, into American culture, still ranked higher black people,

Caroline 1:08:13

right?

Makeda 1:08:13

So when nothing is at risk, we're cool, we're good. When something that's important to me or matters to me is now at risk, you are less important and not as, and so I'm gonna do what I need to do not gonna think about you. what I took from that moment, which is why I was disappointed. but I understood the choice, right? To Annie's point, Ryan

Anne 1:08:33

So when you say you're disappointed, are you disappointed in Grace's actions or Kugler's choice

Makeda 1:08:39

Grace's

Anne 1:08:39

to have her be the character? Okay.

Makeda 1:08:41

no, to Grace's actions, which I understand. like I haven't spoken to Ryan Kler. I have not listened to any, um, interviews by him. this is me just thinking about. the racial hierarchy that exists among non-white people and how are, well, everybody is above black folk, and then black women are at the bottom of the hierarchy, so we weigh at the bottom, but then again, back to the allyship, gonna be an ally. I'll be your friend. As long as nothing is at risk for me and mine.

Anne 1:09:09

mean, I, I,

Caroline 1:09:09

I, was thinking about your mention of allyship.

Anne 1:09:11

I, I mean, I get it. Like when she waves goodbye to her daughter, as she's driving off to go the Jeep Joint, she gives her daughter this like beaming smile and like really enthusiastic wave. And then the daughter's kind of stony faced as teenage girls are. And so it's, it's unbearable the idea of that little girl at home under threat. But at the same time, and, and you know, I've seen support for Grace online that like, if Grace hadn't forced the fight, they might have gone on to take out the whole town, right? By forcing the confrontation, ultimately they took out the threat. She didn't know that when she made her decision. But I guess okay, a criticism sometimes I have of horror movies is when people make dumb decisions,

Caroline 1:09:45

Yeah.

Anne 1:09:45

right? you know, you don't want someone running up the stairs when they should be running out the front door kind of thing. And I thought that in her hysteria. She made a dumb decision and Grace didn't strike me as dumb. Right. But at the same time, for the plot, we need those vampires in the juke joint, right? We need that scene. So I would've liked to see that happen in a different way,

Makeda 1:10:03

Mm-hmm.

Anne 1:10:04

right? And one idea I had, like if I were in the writers' room, um, and I would've liked the Klan perhaps to show up at that point and for the characters in the Duke joint to have these two threats and perhaps then align with Remic to make that choice to say, okay, yeah, yeah, okay. Come in,

Makeda 1:10:22

Mm-hmm.

Anne 1:10:23

align with one evil to defeat another. And that's really explored in the book Ring Shout, which is about, clan members who become like literal monsters. Like there's monsters kind of taking them over. And the main character is like this badass monster fighter. there's Duke joint scenes. Like it's, it's got a lot that aligns with this. And she has made the offer align with us and we can raise you above them, but we are evil too. So it's got a lot in common, I think. But yeah, I would've liked to see Grace not be the one to make that call, but I get that perhaps this was intentional to be making that commentary on

Caroline 1:10:58

Yeah.

Anne 1:10:59

power and, um,

Caroline 1:11:01

to

Anne 1:11:01

hierarchy and, yeah.

Caroline 1:11:02

yeah.

Anne 1:11:03

All right. What do you think was the scariest moment?

Caroline 1:11:06

The knife through the door.

Anne 1:11:07

Oh, yeah. Like in scary movie

Caroline 1:11:08

Yeah,

Anne 1:11:09

isn't, or is there like a penis through the door and scary?

Caroline 1:11:14

it was actually not the knife through the door, but after that they're getting so close to the door and I was like, y'all

Anne 1:11:20

didn't you see the knife go through the door? Yeah.

Caroline 1:11:22

that whole time. I was like, ah, you're so close.

Anne 1:11:26

Yeah. I thought someone was gonna get a knife to the eye or something. Makita, did you have a scariest moment given? It is a horror movie.

Makeda 1:11:34

moment necessarily. I think, even though I saw him coming the way that, cornbread attacked that, guy who was just trying to get back in, who didn't actually get turned, he

Anne 1:11:44

Oh yeah.

Makeda 1:11:45

was passed out I guess, in red or red beer or whatever.

Anne 1:11:50

Oh,

Caroline 1:11:51

dunno.

Makeda 1:11:51

just, the violence way in which he came for him just made me jump. I don't know that I was necessarily scared.

Anne 1:11:59

very animalistic

Makeda 1:12:00

Yes.

Anne 1:12:01

way cornbread is feeding on him. Yeah.

Makeda 1:12:04

I don't know that I had any scary moments.

Anne 1:12:07

I think for me there's really only like, well there's the knife scene that you just mentioned, Caroline, but also the jump scare when, uh, I think it's when Delta Slim is sacrificing himself and he's kind of keeping everyone busy downstairs and the remaining characters go upstairs and they open up the top of the barn and REMIC is up there and he goes, Sammy, and that really, and that got me. Yeah. And just his fingernails getting all along and monstrous. That's always creepy. The saddest moment for me was smoke killing Annie. You know, having to,

Makeda 1:12:33

Mm-hmm.

Anne 1:12:34

kill her before she turns, before she becomes something unholy. And that's a very common, that trope, particularly in zombie movies like, kill Me before I Become one of them

Makeda 1:12:42

That was sad, especially since he'd lost his brother literally a few hours

Anne 1:12:46

and his baby.

Makeda 1:12:47

and, right.

Caroline 1:12:47

I think the hardest part for me was him coming in the door and seeing his brother dying. I think, that was the most heartbreaking moment for

Makeda 1:12:55

Mm-hmm.

Caroline 1:12:56

that it

Anne 1:12:56

Yeah.

Caroline 1:12:57

to lose a baby, but I didn't witness that.

Makeda 1:12:59

Yeah.

Anne 1:13:00

Are there any deeper horrors that we haven't already discussed? Robin Clean.

Caroline 1:13:05

Episode has been about the deeper

Anne 1:13:07

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if we need a separate section Oh, one thing, about that is do we know about the deal that Kler got? He has this somewhat unusual deal that only really big shot directors get where he gets back the rights to this after 25 years. And there's been a there's been a lot of like, hand wringing that he got this deal that you don't necessarily see if a white director gets that deal.

Makeda 1:13:30

Yeah. He gets to keep his movie.

Anne 1:13:32

Yeah.

Caroline 1:13:33

I mean, Yeah. like God forbid,

Anne 1:13:35

Yeah. In the Horror Joy podcast, Brianna Cox, who I've mentioned already points out the line between slavery to indentured servitude in the sharecropper system to mass incarceration. So I think that's something to keep in mind. although slavery may be abolished, it's not over,

Makeda 1:13:53

Mm. It just evolved. It just transmuted. It's the through line, the 13th amendment that that documentary follows that through line. Very nicely and, and explains exactly how that happens. And then, Brian Stevenson's work with, the Equal Justice Initiative also talks about that as well. He does a lot of work in the criminal justice system and the ways in which, young black boys just get, treated like adults when they are children for things that white children never in front of a judge for. he also advocates for people who have been put in prison, unfairly. if you are interested, uh, anyone listening is interested, his work is amazing. The Equal Justice Initiative. He's got a museum called the Legacy Museum down in Alabama. He shows the through line from slavery, through sharecropping, through Jim Crow, through the 13th Amendment, and all the way through to the prison, system.

Caroline 1:14:47

Yeah.

Makeda 1:14:47

Yeah.

Anne 1:14:48

Do we have any outstanding questions? One of my questions was how old is Remic really? Right. It's a, is he fourth, fifth century? Is he kind of like pre Romans? maybe it's later because of the, our father. Yeah.

Caroline 1:15:00

taking his land, so whenever that happens.

Anne 1:15:04

I also wanted to know why did they give Sammy a chance at immortality when he's so old? We know from what we do in the shadows, Guillermo needs to be turned into a vampire in his prime.

Makeda 1:15:14

right?

Anne 1:15:15

if they were gonna make the offer, they should have offered him at like 28 or something.

Caroline 1:15:19

I have a question. Do vampires get fat from overeating? Because that was a feast,

Anne 1:15:24

I would think they just, they are what they are when they turn.

Caroline 1:15:28

so the amount of blood they consume doesn't impact their weight.

Makeda 1:15:31

I don't think so. But

Anne 1:15:32

That is a good question.

Makeda 1:15:33

I'm not sure that Remic turned all of them. he turns the two white folks and they, he turned Mary,'cause we saw him fly over Mary.

Anne 1:15:42

a cool scene, by the way, with the way it, kind of like goes into, purline. It's like he's flying and then we see Purline ascend.

Makeda 1:15:49

yeah.

Anne 1:15:50

cool.

Caroline 1:15:50

because we know from, Buffy the Vampire Slayer that they do get hungry. like,

Anne 1:15:56

They definitely get hungry.

Makeda 1:15:57

Right, right.

Caroline 1:15:59

if there's metabolism, there must be,

Makeda 1:16:02

Well, so bringing in a discovery of witches with Matthew Claremont, their, metabolism is so much slower that like his heart could beat and then not beat again for like 20 or 30 minutes.

Caroline 1:16:15

But wouldn't

Makeda 1:16:15

So

Caroline 1:16:16

then?

Makeda 1:16:16

they don't need

Anne 1:16:17

Maybe just drinking blood doesn't have a lot of calories. I, I, yeah.

Caroline 1:16:21

calories. There we go. We're a bunch of doctors over. We're here.

Anne 1:16:25

If anyone has any opinions on whether or not vampires can gain weight, please contact us.

Caroline 1:16:30

That

Anne 1:16:30

opinions, actually. We want facts.

Caroline 1:16:32

yeah.

Makeda 1:16:34

from your vampire friends, please.

Caroline 1:16:36

Facts only. please. Yeah.

Anne 1:16:37

Yeah. Um, do we have any other criticism? I mean, my only minor criticism is I, I did wish we didn't need grace to do that, yeah,

Caroline 1:16:45

didn't, hate the end in the beginning, because I know you have mixed feelings on that as a storytelling device.

Anne 1:16:51

no, I'm okay with it.

Caroline 1:16:52

Okay.

Anne 1:16:52

I don't hate that. So what Caroline is referring to is when a story starts at the end and then flashes back, I'm just saying it can be overdone and it's like every story expects it now because we have to start with action.

Caroline 1:17:05

yeah.

Anne 1:17:05

but you know, I didn't even think it didn't bother me.

Makeda 1:17:08

It worked really well for this, right? You

Anne 1:17:11

Yeah.

Makeda 1:17:11

the end result Of fighting the system and what it costs you. And then I look back here.

Anne 1:17:17

I did think it was a little silly the way Mary and Stack run out of the juke joint. Just like visually kind of goofy the way they just like sprint. It didn't strike me as scary. Like I wish they could have, don't know, moved in a way that didn't feel silly to me, but

Caroline 1:17:30

Hmm.

Anne 1:17:30

minor, it's a masterpiece. It's amazing. It should have won.

Caroline 1:17:32

they didn't run like Phoebe.

Anne 1:17:34

There could have been worse running.

Makeda 1:17:35

there could have been worse. Ready facts.

Anne 1:17:38

could have walked out like Sean Penn in one battle after another.

Makeda 1:17:42

God, I just, that is three hours. I will never get back.

Anne 1:17:47

It took me four nights to watch it.'cause I, I kept falling asleep. Yeah, my husband and I watched it in like 40 minutes spurts, and that's not necessarily a slight on a movie. I, I get sleepy at night, but yeah, it,

Makeda 1:18:00

particular movie,

Anne 1:18:01

only take three nights. All right. Survival. What do we learn? my first survival is know the signs of vampire zombies, demons, and act accordingly. Be like Annie. And if someone is being cagey about asking to come in, don't let them in. I mean, I, I, I never let anyone into my house who's a stranger. Like, I literally

Makeda 1:18:18

Danger.

Anne 1:18:18

hear my dog bark that someone's coming up the stairs and I go hide. But like, in case they're vampires, that's another reason not to open the door. Do we have any other survival tips that we get from this?

Makeda 1:18:27

instincts.

Anne 1:18:28

Yep.

Makeda 1:18:29

Annie, and Mary originally were like, mm, y'all are

Anne 1:18:32

Yeah. women.

Caroline 1:18:34

not just trust

Anne 1:18:34

If a woman is telling you that guy's weird, there's something off, there probably is.

Caroline 1:18:39

trust people who have proximity to like being in tune with the earth. I don't know, I just really feel like last episode and this episode too, like there's so much that could be learned about other cultures that more helpful than the primary culture

Makeda 1:18:55

Mm-hmm.

Caroline 1:18:56

in this country. And in your country, even Annie, I know you have similar problems in Australia, indigenous people are not, listened to in the same way. I would be like, trust the locals I

Makeda 1:19:06

Mm-hmm.

Caroline 1:19:07

And by local I mean like from their local, you know,

Makeda 1:19:10

Yeah.

Anne 1:19:10

I'm gonna go shallow again after that profound thing you just said and say, don't go so far away to pee in the woods like cornbread, lots of horror movies. Like just, you don't need to go so far.

Caroline 1:19:20

one of the benefits of that.

Anne 1:19:22

Yeah,

Caroline 1:19:22

go over there.

Anne 1:19:23

take a buddy to pee if you're a woman.

Makeda 1:19:26

Right. Don't go by yourself.

Caroline 1:19:27

anybody would've helped in that situation, but

Anne 1:19:30

wouldn't have helped in that sense, but it can help in real life.

Caroline 1:19:32

Bring your pepper spray.

Makeda 1:19:33

Bring

Anne 1:19:33

Yeah.

Makeda 1:19:34

spray. Yes. Yes. Listen the world is burning.

Caroline 1:19:37

Mm-hmm.

Makeda 1:19:38

is terrible, especially here in the United States. as a black person, one of the survival things that I'm taking away from that movie is, just don't trust white people,

Caroline 1:19:46

Mm-hmm.

Makeda 1:19:46

which,

Anne 1:19:47

Makes sense.

Makeda 1:19:47

And listen, I have lots of white women and men who are my friends, who I love and adore and all the things and adjust. White people are not safe as a general painting with broad strokes.

Anne 1:19:59

That's fair.

Caroline 1:20:00

you are our second guest speaker in a row, which we are so honored for. We had, Jillian Penns, who's from another podcast. She has a saying, both can be true, two things can be true at the same time.

Makeda 1:20:11

Yeah.

Caroline 1:20:11

And that is important to know and that is what we say when we say like, choose the bear and, trust women and all that stuff. there's always exceptions to a rule. And two things can be true at the same time. So. Totally. Because I even wrote down when he teaches the girl to negotiate per minute, I wrote down a white person would never like, as a

Makeda 1:20:32

Yeah, yeah,

Caroline 1:20:33

know,

Makeda 1:20:34

it's true.

Caroline 1:20:34

the sense of community anyway, so I agree with you.

Makeda 1:20:37

If you haven't seen this movie, do yourself a favor and watch it. is an extraordinary film and we have completely ruined the whole movie for you'cause we've given all

Anne 1:20:46

Yeah, I can't imagine you would've listened to hours of us talking without seeing it.

Makeda 1:20:50

and go back and watch it again'cause it's worth

Anne 1:20:52

Yes.

Makeda 1:20:53

times you will get something out of it no matter how many times you watch it.

Anne 1:20:57

definitely.

Caroline 1:20:58

this movie and you listen to this whole episode, let us know because maybe we need a Patreon.

Anne 1:21:04

Yeah, it's almost as long as the movie.

Caroline 1:21:07

good? Okay.

Anne 1:21:08

Caroline, can you tell us what our pallet cleanser is?

Caroline 1:21:10

Well, Makita is so happy to hear you're on TikTok, like me and an addict. I hope you've been seeing the National Parks Talk

Makeda 1:21:17

Oh my God. So yeah.

Caroline 1:21:19

This, this is coming out like in a month, but holy shit some people have been calling it only parks. I just gotta say get on TikTok the National parks. It is unreal.

Anne 1:21:30

have to send it to me.

Makeda 1:21:31

it. Yeah.

Caroline 1:21:32

Yeah. Tree is, Anyway,

Anne 1:21:36

I have no idea what you're talking about, but send it to me.

Caroline 1:21:40

I'll, I'll,

Anne 1:21:40

Caroline, can you tell us what the homework is

Caroline 1:21:43

Yes.

Anne 1:21:43

episode?

Caroline 1:21:44

So we've had a couple of very heavy weeks and, I did not quote accurately, Dan Savage, who was the person who said, during the darkest days of the AIDS crisis, we buried our friends in the morning. We protest in the afternoon and we danced all night. we're gonna go in our dance all night phase and we're gonna watch Goodfellas because the

Anne 1:22:03

Okay.

Caroline 1:22:03

is Chicago Mafia. We're gonna have a little silly good time next episode?

Anne 1:22:09

I'm excited and a long-term devil in the White City, so start reading that.

Caroline 1:22:14

week. Double in the White City also has a Chicago connection,

Makeda 1:22:17

Nice.

Anne 1:22:18

this All right. Caroline, what are your recommendations?

Caroline 1:22:20

I had two things I wanted to add from the sugar cane. So, there has just come out a new docuseries, lost Women of Alaska. Octavia Spencer has produced that. It is really, really good. and I didn't mention Night Watchman as a book. So those are from last week. Okay. So then also I already mentioned Eight Mile Hayley Steinfeld I also really enjoyed in Hawkeye. and she's also in across the Spider verse, which you love Annie.

Anne 1:22:42

Love.

Caroline 1:22:43

Michael B. Jordan is also in Friday Night Lights of course. for vampire stuff, obviously we mentioned what we do in the Shadows. Blade is a good one. interview with the Vampire and, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, the movie. I actually never watched the show and I feel okay with that. Now that we know that what's his face is garbage. Jos Whedon, right? Isn't he garbage?

Anne 1:23:01

I think so. Yeah. I, I've never watched either. It's one of those things I missed, which is weird.

Caroline 1:23:05

I had Buffy on vh. It was one of the things at my dad's house, my divorce dad's house. So I watched it 8 million times. and then passages I've mentioned before, Amanda Jacobson, who is a podcaster on wine and crime, she's the person who inspired me to get an anti-racism coach. she has a second podcast where they cover smut novels and they did a season on Twilight and it was hilarious. And I never read those books, but I listened to that season and it was really, really good. time Bandits, which I've mentioned before, it does a lot of histories Written by who? Exactly. And sort of showing you misconceptions based on who usually writes the history books we read here in America.

Anne 1:23:46

Well, as I mentioned, uh, my favorite thing to do is listen to a bunch of podcasts surrounding whatever we're doing. So look up the actors in your podcast app. If you had to listen to one, there's one called The Next Best Picture Podcast. It's like two and a half hours long, but it interviews a ton of people, but not just the actors. As viewers, I think we often just think about the surface level stuff acting shots, music, but there's so much work behind the scenes that is invisible and they go into that. I also came out across a podcast called Real spelled conversations with Britt and Bree. It's two black women who, from what I can tell, started their podcast to talk about sinners. they have episodes on like Ancestor Veneration, black Love, and I just found their perspectives really enlightening, and it's also nice to give new podcasters a chance. So check them out. Real conversations with Brit and Brie. Get out. For the idea of a soul stuck in a body and appropriation of that body. Follow redu on threads. She's delightful. And read her book, the Reformatory and her other books. As I said, it aligns really well the thematically with this. And, I mentioned the Horror Joy podcast. They discuss sinners with the reformatory together. I mentioned the book Ring Shout, which is also, uh, has elements of fighting back against the Clan. for the Kids Raising Dion, Michael B. Jordan is in it. It's cute. And if you wanna go back and see, I think it's his first thing is The Wire, right?

Caroline 1:25:06

Oh

Anne 1:25:06

He's

Caroline 1:25:07

Lights.

Anne 1:25:07

And Friday Night Lights. Yeah. for another director who likes reusing actors. Mike Flanagan's work, haunting of Hill House, midnight Mass. Follow the House of Usher, friends because Phoebe plays twins, Ursula and Phoebe. Um, Footloose for a preacher dad who doesn't approve of music, for the melding of time and how time is experienced. Ted Shanks, story of your life, which the movie Arrival is based on. It's beautiful. Also about grief and yeah. For vampires, obviously Dracula, certain Dark Things by Sylvia Marina Garcia who wrote, Mexican Gothic. Abigail is another. Survive the night vampire story. Let the right one in. And most importantly, for vampires, what we do in the shadows, always what we do in the shadows. What about you, Nikita? Is there anything you'd like to recommend?

Makeda 1:25:50

My list will not be nearly as long. Um, so

Anne 1:25:54

go on too long. That's why we do it after the homework so people can turn off if they want to.

Makeda 1:25:57

All good. I would recommend, the Crossing the Lynching Tree by James Cone, just to have another sort of sense of what the blues and the Jupe joint, what that means for black people. But then how, also how we wrestle with religion and the. Freedom found in Christ. If you are someone who identifies as Christian or if you're interested to learn more about people who identify as Christian, he's a black theologian. And I think you should learn from black people, a history of white people. Speaking of black people, I would recommend that book as well within this, genre and sort of thinking about how whiteness permeates all the things. there's a book called Passing by Neller Larson, which gives an account of a black woman who is passing, Um, she is married to a white man, comes across an old classmate who knew she was black, if I'm remembering this correctly. So that, could be, an interesting read to learn more about the, colorism that exists in the black community, and the ways in which that feeds the narrative of white supremacy. And then. would recommend for vampires, a discovery of which is the books, not the series on a MC. I will say that the third book does have, some sex scenes. So if that is, a problem for you, don't read the third book. or you can skip over those parts, which is what I did. I skipped over those parts. It doesn't take away from the story to not read those parts. but I love Matthew Claremont and Diana Bishop in that series. Oh, and Lovecraft Country. it's a great

Anne 1:27:31

Yes.

Makeda 1:27:31

there's a podcast, that goes along with Lovecraft country.

Anne 1:27:35

anything else?

Makeda 1:27:36

I don't think so.

Anne 1:27:37

Alright, Makita, thank you so much for coming on. It was a pleasure meeting you and hearing your thoughts.

Makeda 1:27:43

you. I, hope I contributed to the conversation in a

Anne 1:27:47

Absolutely. Definitely.

Makeda 1:27:48

I enjoyed it and was glad to be invited and appreciate that you all let me hang out with you this evening or this

Anne 1:27:56

Thank you. It's this morning for me. Yeah. I still have to go to work. All right. Thank you for listening. Do all the things podcasters ask you to do, like and subscribe. Write us a review on iTunes. You can email us at Drawn to Darkness pod@gmail.com. Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, or threads. We're on YouTube now if you prefer to listen there. And most importantly, tell a like-minded friend who is also drawn to darkness. And if like Shirley Jackson, you delight in what you fear. You join us next time here on Drawn To Darkness. Special shout out to Nancy Ano who painted our cover art. You can find her on Instagram at Nancy ano and to Harry Kidd for our intro and outro music. You can find him on Instagram at Harry J. Kidd and on Spotify.