32 - Martin Scorsese's Goodfellas

In this episode of Drawn to Darkness, we dive into Martin Scorsese’s Goodfellas, the “glorious,” “classic” mob epic that somehow feels both iconic and unsettling.

From razor-blade-sliced garlic in prison to cocaine-fuelled paranoia and helicopter chases, we unpack the rise and fall of Henry Hill, a kid who always wanted to be a gangster, and ended up a broke, bored “schnuck” in witness protection. We explore the film’s unforgettable characters (Jimmy the Gent, Tommy the loose cannon, and Karen, our MVP), iconic scenes (Funny how?), and the uneasy tension between glamour and brutality. Expect deep dives into the insular world of the mafia, the real Lufthansa heist, cult dynamics, toxic masculinity, and why this isn’t actually the bro movie some people think it is. We also what our mafia nicknames would be and discuss all the cameos and familiar faces.

Content & Spoiler Warning

This episode contains discussion of graphic violence (shootings, beatings, strangulation), drug abuse (especially cocaine), emotional and domestic abuse, and gaslighting. It also includes full spoilers for Goodfellas and references to other crime and horror media. 

Palate Cleanser

After all that coke-fuelled chaos and mob violence:

• Company Retreat (Jury Duty Season 2) - a mockumentary where (almost) everyone is in on the joke. “Delightful,” absurd, and a much-needed reset. 
• Saying “Hey—oh!” like you’re in The Sopranos (very quotable). 

Recommendations

Mafia & Crime:

• The Godfather, The Sopranos, A Bronx Tale 
• The Prince of Providence  by Mike Stanton for corruption in Providence.
• Mob Wives (for chaotic reality TV energy) 
• Crime Town podcast - organised crime beyond the usual cities (and dedicated to Annie’s uncle)
• Wiseguy by Nicholas Pileggi (the book about Henry Hill’s life that inspired Goodfellas) 

True Crime & Culture:

• Adolescence and Inside the Manosphere (Louis Theroux) for confronting toxic masculinity 
• Sweet Bobby – both Goodfellas and this have witness protection (or do they?)  

Films & TV:

• The Night Of for addiction when incarcerated
• Stir of Echoes - underrated Kevin Bacon thriller featuring Illeana Douglas, Tommy’s girlfriend in Goodfellas
• Stand By Me for kids that find a body
• The Studio for a Scorsese cameo 

Unexpected Connections:

• Mean Girls - because Tommy is basically Regina George with a gun 
• Parks and Recreation - questionable interior design parallels 
• Sing - for a very different “My Way” experience 
• When Harry met Sally for another movie with the director's mom.

Homework: 

Watch Jurassic Park – is it horror? Maybe.  We’re continuing with a ‘90s classic that helped shape our love of film (and Ryan Coogler’s), with a surprising connections to Goodfellas (hi Samuel L. Jackson).

And after that: Devil in the White City by Erik Larson 

Keep your temper. Trust your gut. Don’t do coke. Don’t piss off psychopaths. And don’t marry into the mafia. 

We’ll see you next time on Drawn to Darkness.

Special thanks to Nancy Azano for our cover art (Instagram: @nancyazano) and Harry Kidd for our music (Instagram: @harryjkidd, Spotify). 

Transcript

Anne 0:10

Welcome back to Drawn To Darkness, a sometimes weekly, sometimes biweekly podcast where we discuss our favorite horror and true crime. If you wish you had time to slice garlic with a razor blade, we're here for you. My name is Annie and I'll be introducing Caroline to my favorite horror movies, podcast, TV shows and books.

Caroline 0:26

and my name is Caroline and I'll be doing the same from the true crime side of things.

Anne 0:30

I have a question. If you were in the Mafia, what would your nickname be?

Caroline 0:33

I was thinking maybe something having to do with the fact that everything in my brain comes from something I've watched or heard, like maybe like the archive or something like that, or catalog

Anne 0:45

the Archive. Archive. Caroline. Okay.

Caroline 0:48

lose my name. Just like the archive or

Anne 0:50

the archive check with the archive?

Caroline 0:52

Yeah.

Anne 0:53

Mine was kind of similar that I came up with for myself. because I have lists of everything and I'm constantly rewriting my list with the things I didn't do from the previous list. I thought I could be Annie the list the mafia boss would be like, see Annie, she's got the list.

Caroline 1:07

Yeah.

Anne 1:07

Which I'd have to like swallow or burn every time, you know, because it would be keeping track of illegal things.

Caroline 1:12

Caroline, two quotes. Caroline's too long. You can't include Caroline in it. Or just C there's quite a few people that called me C. Yeah,

Anne 1:19

I came up with one for you and I was thinking about it for a while. Should it be one word that like represents you as a person or just this thing that might be insignificant, but that stuck at a point in history and I decided on Caroline Cutlet because of the cutlet parties you used to have with the chicken cutlets. And also it could be like you cut people who cross, you

Caroline 1:39

Oh yeah. Yeah. I like that.

Anne 1:42

The reason I'm asking you this is because today we are covering Martin Scorsese. Goodfellas, which has so many nicknames like Jimmy, the Gent, Conway Fat, Andy, Freddie, No-Nos, spit Shine, Tommy Pete The Killer, which gets right to the point. Jimmy two time Johnny Rose Beef. Right? So many nicknames.

Caroline 2:00

Yeah, to me

Anne 2:01

um,

Caroline 2:01

which my husband I already referenced him always quote like, I gotta get the

Anne 2:05

drink

Caroline 2:06

get the papers,

Anne 2:07

two times. That's a funny one. Well, spoiler trigger, I forgot to write the spoiler trigger, so you might have to remind me of stuff. there is violence associated with the mafia. So people get shot, people get stabbed in the back of the neck.

Caroline 2:21

stabbed

Anne 2:22

get strangled? They get beaten, horrible beatings and punching. And my husband and I always say when we see somebody get like. Beaten up really badly in a movie or TV show, like One Punch Can Kill. That was a big, ad campaign here because like somebody got into a fight at a bar, punched a person and killed them with just like one punch. The way these people annihilate others with just these horrific beatings. Would you survive that? I don't know. Is there anything else? Any other trigger warnings that I should think of?

Caroline 2:47

of assault. I don't think we watch any sexual assault, There's gaslighting.

Anne 2:51

Lots of gaslighting. Yeah.

Caroline 2:52

I don't think any pets die.

Anne 2:54

I don't think any animals cross the scene.

Caroline 2:56

Only in a

Anne 2:57

Yeah. Oh, One's looking this way, the other that way.

Caroline 2:59

guy's saying, what do you want from me? I have that painting in my house.

Anne 3:03

you serious?

Caroline 3:03

Yes.

Anne 3:06

I love that. Well, the other thing is that we will be spoiling the heck out of this. So if you want to go watch this 36-year-old movie, we'll pause for you to do that now. Okay. Caroline, can you tell us what this is about?

Caroline 3:19

Oh boy, with my eyes closed. Okay, so, Martin Scorsese's, glorious, immortal, gangster epic Goodfellas is based on the true story of Henry Hill, a Lucci family mobster termed informant turned blabber mouth beautifully portrayed by Ray Liotta, RIP. it comes out strong right outta the gate with three guys, tta, Robert De Niro and Joe Pesci pulling off a highway in the middle of the night to investigate a thumping noise coming from the trunk. Inside is Billy Batz, played by Frank Vincent, a made man. They were pretty sure they'd already killed, who is not in fact dead. fixed that brutally a mistake that will absolutely come back to bite them. From there, we get launched back into Henry's childhood, a blue collar Irish Italian kid from Brooklyn who from the jump, wanted nothing more than to be a gangster. By 11, he's running errands for the mob, and by adulthood he's graduated to theft, extortion enforcement, the occasional body disposal, and eventually drug distribution. Oh, yeah. Trigger warning, drug abuse, major. and honestly for a while, it's great. The money, the status, the respect, the fear. Henry loves all of it. the way, we get proper introductions to the people in his orbit, Jimmy and Tommy De Niro and Pehi boss, Pauly Cicero, played by Paul Serino, and Karen, the Jewish woman, Henry Marries and then proceeds to cheat on Gaslight and emotionally abused while she gets slowly, completely swallowed by the insular and deeply toxic world of mafia wives. Played by the incomparable Lorraine Brocko. There's mob business, including the Leftanza Heist, a real life airport robbery that brings in millions some truly legendary cinematography, permanently seared into my brain. but just when everything seems to be coming up. Roses. Billy Bat's, chickens, the Billy Bat's chickens comes home to roost, I think, I don't know if I said that correctly, but the way I wrote it. Dmi, told he's finally going to be made, is killed instead, payback for a murder the mob never forgot. Thus begins Henry's unraveling, increasingly paranoid, isolated, and doing a truly impressive amount of cocaine. He eventually gets arrested for drug distribution. with a choice between testifying or ending up in a trunk himself. Henry does the unthinkable. He rats on all of his friends and does not keep his mouth shut. film ends with Henry Hill in witness protection, somewhere in suburbia, broke, bored, and stripped of everything. The life once gave him his closing words. He spent the rest of his life like a schnuck

Anne 5:42

What adjective would you use to describe this?

Caroline 5:44

for me. It's glorious.

Anne 5:46

Glorious. Okay.

Caroline 5:48

I, I mean I've watched this 8 million times. I think it was on TV a lot. I had it on BHS. and I just, I love so much about the film. Specifically the film, not mob life in general. And I don't generally like mob stuff, so

Anne 6:02

I'm less interested in mob stuff as a true crime subject because maybe because I'm not scared of it,

Caroline 6:08

Right,

Anne 6:08

whereas like the other stuff I'm scared of

Caroline 6:09

mob stuff Like you can understand the logic behind it, even if it's reprehensible, It's very straightforward,

Anne 6:15

it's business. It's generally not sadism or random. Whereas a serial killer, that might be what it's about. I would describe it as classic, almost. So classic that it sort of feels like a cliche, even though I know this is like the movie that established the cliches, or at least some of them. last year my husband and I watched Sopranos from start to finish and so much of what's in that comes from Goodfellas, but is like flushed out in more detailed because they have dozens of mini movies instead of one. but yeah, so it felt classic to me. I was actually a little apprehensive when you said you wanted to cover this because I did not have it on VHS, so it's not a classic for me. Like, I've seen Sopranos more and I've seen The Godfather more,

Caroline 6:54

Mm-hmm.

Anne 6:54

I kind of think of Goodfellas as like. Territory. there's sometimes this patronizing gatekeepery tone to the discourse around it. I've definitely had tipsy conversations in college with frat boy types who had I don't know, like Scarface posters on their walls. So that kind of turned me off on Goodfellas a bit, and I don't really think I've watched it since then.

Caroline 7:14

you just reminded me of in Barbie, when she's like, oh, is this the Godfather? Yes. She mispronounces it. So they're

Anne 7:21

Yeah,

Caroline 7:21

never seen it? I can't wait to tell you all about it. You know?

Anne 7:24

yeah, I guess it just can be a bit patronizing, but

Caroline 7:26

Yeah.

Anne 7:27

loved it. I watched it twice to prepare for this. I really enjoyed it. I see what the hype is about after watching it with like more of a critical eye. So you can call me a good fellas, bro.

Caroline 7:35

Oh, that's so nice. Now you can

Anne 7:37

Yeah.

Caroline 7:38

jokes.

Anne 7:38

Do you joke about Goodfellas a lot? I, I haven't noticed probably'cause I just don't know it that well.

Caroline 7:42

we do at home, obviously, we have poster from the movie up as if it were real art. And by the way, my sister-in-law was like, is that your father-in-law in this painting

Anne 7:52

Oh.

Caroline 7:53

anyway?

Anne 7:54

my husband often says a little bit, a little bit

Caroline 7:56

Mm-hmm.

Anne 7:58

a little bit,

Caroline 7:58

God isn't De Niro so good.

Anne 8:00

He's so good. before we get into how good he is, Just in terms of journey, I have a lot of nostalgia for this time period, even though I didn't live it because my grandparents lived outside New York. My grandma was from Brooklyn. I have pictures of my grandfather looking like that. Like he's Italian suits, fedora. owned a used car dealership and he gambled. given where he lived, like I guarantee he had encounters with these people, right?

Caroline 8:25

I would think so.

Anne 8:26

Yeah. he had in his basement, A pool table room, and half the basement was for the pool table. And we were allowed there. And he used to dance around a Frank Sinatra while we played pool, but on the other half of the basement was like the Gaudiest bar that was built into it with the mirrors that reminded me like so much of the hills decorating. And we weren't even allowed, we weren't allowed to go near the bar. Right. we just would stare in awe at the luxury. But like, it wasn't, classy. It would've been awful.

Caroline 8:53

this is so funny because it's like, I know you're Italian. Obviously you have an Italian last name, but don't think of you as Italian, and this is like so Italian. Everything you're

Anne 9:02

Yeah. I mean, I'm like one quarter, my grandfather's like pure, my great-grandmother only spoke Italian, but I think the Irish, the Irish Scottish in me kind of like took over.

Caroline 9:12

Annie has these adorable freckles. They're really cute and charming, and they're, very Irish looking. And then you know, you're in greater Boston, which is very like Irish territory. So I just think of you as more Irish, but

Anne 9:24

The Irish Catholic was stronger I think in terms both in terms of like how we grew up and you know, just genes.

Caroline 9:31

Interesting.

Anne 9:32

I also lived in Federal Hill for a while in Providence, and that's the Italian section. And we used to always see these old guys like sitting outside shops just like you see in Sopranos, just like you see in Goodfellas. And I was always just like, are they?

Caroline 9:43

Mm-hmm.

Anne 9:43

just old guys sitting outside? I have no idea. But they had that look about them. Well, let's talk about the director. Scorsese, obviously a legend. Do you have a favorite of his movie? Is it this.

Caroline 9:52

I think so if there are men listening, they're all gonna hate me.'cause I like couldn't name his filmography name. Other ones.

Anne 10:00

Gangs of New York,

Caroline 10:01

I've

Anne 10:02

shutter Island.

Caroline 10:03

never seen

Anne 10:03

The padded.

Caroline 10:04

Nope. Never seen that.

Anne 10:05

Really? Okay. Well

Caroline 10:06

not

Anne 10:07

if you like this so much, you should watch some of his other movies

Caroline 10:09

I'm not really into gangster stuff in general. I mean, I love this and I love Godfather, and Sopranos, that's like it.

Anne 10:14

I haven't even discussed. I think what are his most famous ones? Which would be like Raging Bull Taxi Driver, I really like Gangs of New York, Daniel Day Lewis is like awesome in it.

Caroline 10:23

I'm looking at his, full filmography here and this is my favorite.

Anne 10:27

I recently started the studio

Caroline 10:29

Hmm.

Anne 10:29

which I think you recommended as like a palate cleanser or something like that, a while back. And he's on the first episode because this, this storyline about killing a film that he wanted to make about Jonestown. And I'm like, can you make that, this shouldn't be like a throwaway, fake idea in a sitcom. Like, can you please make that Some of my fun facts are that people he knew were in this. Like that's his mom.

Caroline 10:52

I know. I was gonna

Anne 10:53

Mommy's mom is his mom.

Caroline 10:55

Who did

Anne 10:55

Who.

Caroline 10:56

my house

Anne 10:57

Also reminds me of my grandma so much. I, I don't know, like something about her cadence, the way she talks her kitchen, the way she's up in a pink bathrobe, which I think my grandma had the exact same pink bathrobe ready to cook you something. I'm like,

Caroline 11:11

made so

Anne 11:12

I got this. Yeah. Just like ready to go. And I got this flashback when I saw the fruit bowl with the fake grapes on her table. I swear my grandma had that. And I asked my sister and she was like, I cannot confirm. But just the overall vibe of that woman was like my grandma who was not Italian, but Grew up in that same kind of area. Yeah. let's talk a little bit about the context and setting. So the real crime, because when you suggested it, I was like, that's not true crime

Caroline 11:38

mm.

Anne 11:39

because because I didn't know. I listened to this podcast called, I Think, crimes of the Century that goes into the historical backdrop. And wine and crime do it too.

Caroline 11:47

Mm-hmm.

Anne 11:47

Uh, they cover airport crime. And so I learned for anyone who didn't know that this was based on a real crime, the idle wild airport. Now, JFK was considered an ATM for the mafia, uh, shrimp and lobster or something. I, I just can't imagine stealing shrimp and lobster. Like that was a big thing that they would steal. Like, that's gross.

Caroline 12:05

Yeah.

Anne 12:05

It would go bad so fast. I thought,

Caroline 12:07

I enjoy to eat it, but I really want like people who know what they're doing to have vetted it first,

Anne 12:12

yes, I want the chain of custody

Caroline 12:14

right?

Anne 12:14

shrimp and lobster to be like very controlled, right. Um. So they're just picking up trucks, employees. They get employees of the airport gambling and then they could shake them down for info and access to work off those debts. And obviously the big one was the left hands of heist where they ended up with 5 million in cash, 1 million in JUULs. And at the time it was the largest cash heist. So Caroline, I'm guessing, knowing you that you have somewhere written in your notes, the inflationary value of that.

Caroline 12:44

Yes. Much like the MFM girls, I love a time money converter. so 6 million in 1978 is equivalent to. million today.

Anne 12:53

It's a lot of money, especially if you're killing off everyone you owe the money to. Right.

Caroline 12:57

Seriously?

Anne 12:58

I saw that at least 12 people were like, definitely murdered to cover this up loose ends by the real Jimmy, who's named Jimmy Burke, I think. but probably more. And the money was never recovered.

Caroline 13:09

Mm-hmm.

Anne 13:10

So where'd it go? Because most of them ended up debtor in jail. Where's that money

Caroline 13:13

I know. Did you expect to see Samuel L. Jackson in this movie?

Anne 13:16

blink. And you miss him, right?

Caroline 13:18

know. I

Anne 13:19

Mr.

Caroline 13:20

in it, and I've seen

Anne 13:21

No, I'm,

Caroline 13:21

times.

Anne 13:22

he's barely there. I mean, he's so, so skinny. He's tall and skinny,

Caroline 13:26

He's

Anne 13:26

but the real guy stacks. Like you had one job to get rid of that car. And instead, I guess he parked it illegally in front of a fire hydrant with his fingerprints all over it and went and got high and hung out with his girlfriend. So, big mistake, these guys were not necessarily smart. Like Tommy, the real Tommy took off his mask in front of witnesses. Collectively, they went on very obvious spending sprees, which is shown in the movie, like they're not Oceans 11. Right. They got away with it because the security system was bad and they were brutal and, They had a lot of gall. Right.

Caroline 13:56

Yeah.

Anne 13:57

not because they were geniuses.

Caroline 13:58

Totally. they didn't just have gall, had a network

Anne 14:02

They had control.

Caroline 14:03

Yeah.

Anne 14:03

could bribe and threaten and, get people who owed them because they controlled so much. And then manipulate them, which I bet has something to do with why the Epstein files haven't Come out. to work the Epstein files in.

Caroline 14:15

Yeah. You did

Anne 14:17

I always do.

Caroline 14:18

my husband is your Epstein file

Anne 14:20

that's dad drink. Annie mentioned the Epstein foes. Well, Henry saw the writing on the wall, and apparently his testimony resulted in 50 people going to jail, including Jimmy, but not for the left hands of heist. He was like fixing college basketball games and that's what they got him on. So historically, this moment of Henry Hill turning has been dubbed the beginning of the end of the mafia as we know it,

Caroline 14:42

as we know it now. It's just

Anne 14:43

we know.

Caroline 14:44

of the government.

Anne 14:45

Right. And Henry Hill couldn't even stay in witness protection. He got like kicked out for continuing to traffic cocaine and talking too much.

Caroline 14:52

Which is why we have his story in the end ultimately.

Anne 14:55

Yeah. I got the book outta the library, but I didn't have time to finish it because I started reading it and I was like, this is like exact, maybe I don't need to read it.

Caroline 15:02

I was gonna say, speaking of exact, said that Ray T's impression was like 98% accurate.

Anne 15:08

Oh, wow.

Caroline 15:09

Yeah.

Anne 15:09

Speaking of the book, Scorsese, when he saw read this book, said, I've been waiting my whole life for this book.

Caroline 15:14

Hmm.

Anne 15:15

Joe Pesci also did Home Alone, same year as home alone. It came out a few months later. What a year.

Caroline 15:20

what do you think of Joe Pesci in this role where he's supposed to be the same age as Ray Liotta?

Anne 15:24

Well. Yeah, that's a criticism.

Caroline 15:29

Yeah.

Anne 15:32

given that they have that mini me kid who looks like a miniaturized clone of Joe Pesci. So it is established that these kids are meant to be the same age you know what, like, it's amazing casting because he is so iconic, right? Like, I can't imagine it any other way, but I think he was 47 playing a guy who's meant to be in his twenties

Caroline 15:51

yeah,

Anne 15:52

it,

Caroline 15:53

yeah.

Anne 15:53

so

Caroline 15:53

not look, he cannot pull it off.

Anne 15:56

no, he's not pulling it off. it's probably one of the most egregious cases of old casting of all time, way worse than Andrea Zuckerman.

Caroline 16:03

Yeah, yeah, on Unspool Paul Shares podcast where they do the a FI top 100. She goes on and on about this aspect of it, making it hard for her to make it believable. mean, it is a movie. you have to have some, what is the phrase? Suspension of

Anne 16:17

Disbelief. Yeah, I mean, I guess I sort of forgot. He was based on a real person, so I just went with it. He's an old hothead,

Caroline 16:24

Yeah.

Anne 16:24

it didn't bother me. Just be because he is So iconic, so, so quotable. I mean, I think, Tommy is the Regina George of this friend group.

Caroline 16:32

Hmm

Anne 16:32

You never know where you stand with her. Right? you know, when he's gonna turn from like warm and fun and this crazy, fun social asset to like threatening and dangerous,

Caroline 16:42

To,

Anne 16:42

right? Like when

Caroline 16:43

Do I lose you?

Anne 16:44

Yeah. And that moment reminded me of when Regina says, so you agree, you think you're pretty

Caroline 16:50

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Anne 16:51

right. It's, um, threatening in a different way, I mean, so fragile. What a loose cannon.

Caroline 16:55

Very much a loose cannon. I mean, there was no way he could have been made, he doesn't think with his head.

Anne 17:00

No. Which makes sense. I guess if he was actually meant to be like in his twenties, that he would be this loose cannon hothead that can't be controlled. But I was just thinking how stressful to be friends with that guy, right? Like, that's not fun.

Caroline 17:11

no. I it. No,

Anne 17:13

I mean, just in general, it would be stressful to be friends with these guys'cause they could literally turn on you and, wrap a piano wire around your neck every, any minute. But like, that moment how could you not feel uneasy every time you joked around with him for the rest of your life. Yeah. And then if you stopped hanging out with him though, he'd probably think you were snubbing him and then he'd kill you for that reason. So you're stuck with him

Caroline 17:32

probably think you insulted him a little bit.

Anne 17:34

a little bit. A little bit.

Caroline 17:35

bit.

Anne 17:35

One of the most upsetting moments with Tommy for me is killing Spider

Caroline 17:39

I know.

Anne 17:40

When Spider keeps trying to like explain himself for not getting the drink, I'm just like, oh my God. Stop.

Caroline 17:45

it's so good because it's such a small part. He does such a good job. What's his name? Michael Imperioli.

Anne 17:51

Yeah. Also later in White Lotus.

Caroline 17:53

Which also, he does a fabulous job in that too. does such a good job because I can hear myself being like, no, no, no. I'm trying to say like, I thought when you said, I'm all right that you were right. You know, it's such a

Anne 18:04

Yeah.

Caroline 18:05

conversation. That's one of the things I love about this movie too. I'm always really appreciative of things that feel realistic. Like all the side conversations that are meant to be fluff. And I think I talked about this in another movie we

Anne 18:18

Jaws, you talk about it in our Jaws episodes side conversations. Yeah.

Caroline 18:22

it's just a, good directorial decision to make you feel like you're watching something that's real, and it's a thing that doesn't happen. And, a lot of like classic pop films, you don't have meaningless side conversations, but that's what life is like. There's meaningless side conversations happening all the time,

Anne 18:38

those dinner conversations, like it was, particularly with Tommy, I'm so focused on his expression and when his mood is gonna change that I can't focus on what he's saying.

Caroline 18:47

Mm.

Anne 18:47

I don't know what those stories were about before the, am I funny, shift.

Caroline 18:51

I don't think I could tell you what that story was, but I could probably recite the whole, am I fun? Am I a clown? Do I amuse you?

Anne 18:57

Yeah,

Caroline 18:59

So good. It's so good.

Anne 19:00

back to Spider for a minute. I also feel like it's such a betrayal of young Henry, because Henry was Spider, right? He was the guy who ran the errands. And you look at the contrast between the way these guys love bombed him and treated him so well in comparison and rally around him, like when he keeps his mouth shut after that first arrest. And then you contrast with that, with how Tommy, who is now the guy in power There was a, another thing I thought you might be pointing out was Tommy's Death. Joe Peshy says, like he barely gets out. Oh no. And wasn't there something where someone says shit that you commented on in a past?

Caroline 19:35

Yes. Oh, I, I, yeah, because all I can remember is that at that time I was trying to remember some of those like ridiculous last quotes of people dying that are like, there's no way they said all that.

Anne 19:47

Yeah. Maybe it was scream. I don't know. I was looking back through our old episodes'cause I remember you were pointing out that somebody said,

Caroline 19:52

it's oh

Anne 19:53

well, okay, so

Caroline 19:54

I think it.

Anne 19:55

yeah.

Caroline 19:55

Uh, something like that. Yeah.

Anne 19:57

If you think of it, tell me. But Tommy barely says, oh no. And in Sinners, REMIC says, oh shit.

Caroline 20:03

Mm-hmm.

Anne 20:04

So I thought there was a bit of a connection that there. Side note, what was that waiter thinking when he confronts Tommy about the unpaid bill in front of all of his friends? Like,

Caroline 20:14

I know that was really stupid. poor, like spider didn't deserve that, but that waiter deserved that, you know, like deserved spider's, fate,

Anne 20:22

I mean, well he got a different kind of fate, right? The collateral damage of getting squeezed.

Caroline 20:30

yeah, right. He comes for help, he wants protection. Then he becomes part of the system and they just

Anne 20:36

Yeah. And he is just taken for all he's worth until it's just the insurance claim on the arson that they're about to do. I was thinking like Polly at that point, he's like, I don't know anything about the restaurant business. Do you think that whole thing him feigning ignorance? Well, I'm saying he's feigning ignorance was the setup.

Caroline 20:53

Yes,

Anne 20:53

And he's pretending, oh, I don't really want this. I'm the one doing you a favor by getting involved. And then he just takes him for all he's worth.

Caroline 20:59

absolutely.

Anne 21:00

well, Pauly, flashback to one of our, earlier episodes, catch and Kill, we discuss his daughter Meyer Sno, who was a Weinstein survivor, and he threatened to kill him.

Caroline 21:11

I would be very afraid of a threat from that man. He's in, um, the Romeo and Juliet.

Anne 21:16

Yes. And he's very saliva in that. Do you remember when he's like in the party like he's yelling at, or, no, I think it's when he's yelling at Juliet for like not wanting to marry Paris and he's like spitting in her face. So I was thinking about you with that. Now that I know that you don't like spit, I'm like, every time I see spit I'm like, Caroline would hate this. Very sl. Much more understated here. Very in control, He's the one who like represents the old ways and he's anti-drug, which is also a very godfather, right. and an early adapter of no phones, which reminded me of the wire.

Caroline 21:45

It is so funny'cause I spent so much of my life on the phone, specifically with Chris Morrison, my first boyfriend in like grade to sixth grade. Um, just on the phone for hours and just like playing Nintendo on the phone, on the phone. Constantly, And now I'm like so afraid of the phone that I've changed doctors and hairstylists to online and avoid

Anne 22:10

So when you say you're afraid of the phone, do you mean because you don't wanna be overheard, you think that you're being listened to or just you just don't wanna talk on the phone?'cause of like social anxiety or something?

Caroline 22:21

anxiety.

Anne 22:21

Yeah. I hate the phone too. I hate when people call me, but

Caroline 22:25

I hate when people call me, I hate to call people. you know, now I'm gonna like unplanned, bother a person who's not expecting me. and

Anne 22:33

no, it feels rude now.

Caroline 22:35

It feels

Anne 22:36

Whereas like a text can be answered in due time, right? But like a phone, you need to talk to me right now,

Caroline 22:42

Exactly.

Anne 22:43

not meant that way. I think it's a generational difference.

Caroline 22:45

Yeah, I

Anne 22:46

is what this is about. Generational differences.

Caroline 22:48

So, totally true.

Anne 22:49

I think I have a few other fun facts before we get deeply into character. a lot of cameos as we already said. Martin Scorsese's mom played Tommy's mom. the real federal prosecutor, Edward McDonald was the guy who was briefing them on witness protection towards the end.

Caroline 23:06

Oh wow. He was good.

Anne 23:07

I guess he did that for a living. So he came off as reel. the wig commercial was actually made by a director of like those type of ads.

Caroline 23:15

Oh, really? Oh, Maury. Poor

Anne 23:17

the guy who plays muy is, de Niro's landlord and is apparently in a bunch of other De Niro movies as well.

Caroline 23:22

No way.

Anne 23:23

Yeah, he's his landlord, so they're just like mates

Caroline 23:25

It's funny.

Anne 23:26

that commercial reminded me of the Mattress King from Friends and I'm the Wiz from Seinfeld's and Better Call Saul.

Caroline 23:33

I was gonna say it better if reminded you of I'm the Wiz, nobody beats me.

Anne 23:37

Yeah, so like that, those crappy old commercials.

Caroline 23:41

Absolutely.

Anne 23:42

oh, and one of the things I wanted to talk about that we didn't talk about last week in Sinners, somehow we still missed it after an hour and a half of talking, was to give some credit to the cinematographer Autumn arpa. And similarly, Goodfellas has an unsung hero. the editor is Thelma Shoemaker, who is nominated for an Academy Award, and she's responsible for a lot of the editing choices that. We value in this movie, like the faster cuts and the helicopter scene, they apparently worked together for decades like Ryan Kogler and Autumn apa. So another one is Verna Fields in Jaws. She's another behind the scenes woman whose name gets overshadowed by the director. So just wanted to shout out those women.

Caroline 24:17

under the same umbrella of topic, I'm so graceful tonight, is the winner, which is a very famous scene.

Anne 24:23

yes. Should we talk about that scene now?

Caroline 24:25

do you wanna talk about Lorraine Brocko?

Anne 24:27

Sure. I mean, she's my MVP, of all the characters I was most interested in her.

Caroline 24:31

she does a fabulous job.

Anne 24:32

I love how we see her go from just like clueless and naive. It's like, what do you do when they're at the Copa Cabana and like prim and proper to stuffing a gun in her tiny little undies and like flushing coke down the toilet and being savvy enough to avoid a mob. Hit

Caroline 24:45

There's so many great choices about her character because she's like. He says he's in construction, first of all, when he hands everyone a 20. That would be a hundred today.

Anne 24:54

Good point.

Caroline 24:56

and when he says he's in construction, she grabs his hand immediately and she's like, your hands don't look like it. And I, I would never think of that. I'm, be like, okay. You know, like,

Anne 25:07

No, I wouldn't either. Do you think you'd be impressed by a really showy date, like that

Caroline 25:12

It would be cool to be like, oh, there's a back entrance and they made a table for you up front and then all these people are shaking your hands, but I don't think the. Part of it is what I would like. I think I would feel like this guy's knows all these people and is friends with like, you know, like

Anne 25:28

social status?

Caroline 25:29

right, the personal interplay of that was more attractive to me than

Anne 25:34

Hmm.

Caroline 25:35

he must be rich.'cause they made him a table of front My thought would've been more like, my God, he is friends with all these people. He must be a great guy,

Anne 25:43

Okay, so you just see me. He was a great guy as opposed to a powerful guy.

Caroline 25:46

Right. I would assume like he's got so many friends, you know, everyone loves him.

Anne 25:50

I was very worried when they moved the table that someone was gonna get smacked in the head with like a table leg, because I talking about that head

Caroline 25:57

I mean, and

Anne 25:57

height.

Caroline 25:58

like, they're so lucky there's an outlet there for them to plug that table lamp too. I,

Anne 26:03

well, yeah, it must be set up that way.

Caroline 26:05

underneath the table, you know? I'm like, well, they must purposely save spaces in the front in case they come.

Anne 26:10

I feel like those restaurants all look awful. They're supposed to be nice, but they're so claustrophobic and crowded and they're sitting on top of each other, like, ugh.

Caroline 26:18

None of that looked like fun. And especially, you know, that guy comes up who I think is the real comedian,

Anne 26:23

Oh, with the misogynistic joke,

Caroline 26:26

Yeah,

Anne 26:27

those were the jokes of my grandfather. a thousand percent.

Caroline 26:30

all of

Anne 26:30

Yeah.

Caroline 26:30

our grandfathers.

Anne 26:31

All of our grandfathers. Yeah. and then there's that scene where it's the girlfriend night and they're all just like watching whoever the singer is, and I'm just like, uh, I think I'd be really bored.

Caroline 26:40

I would have to pee and I'd be like, how do I get up and pee? I'm like

Anne 26:44

It's so crowded.

Caroline 26:45

here.

Anne 26:46

This is why I never liked being on boats because I would feel like I can't leave and I get a similar vibe from that restaurant, just with all those people crowded and I, and I don't like concerts for that reason either. I, I'd much rather stay home and read a book, which I have admitted to in my old age. But I always, you know, I went to concerts anyway when I was young and in college because that was the social expectation, but I never enjoyed it.

Caroline 27:08

I enjoyed concerts, but not until I was under the influence of something, because I have so much social anxiety and groups of people make me afraid.

Anne 27:17

Yeah.

Caroline 27:17

I just booked, I'm so excited. At the end of the summer, I'm gonna go see TLCN, Vogue and Salt and Pepper.

Anne 27:23

Oh, fun. Yeah. That would be fun.

Caroline 27:25

with

Anne 27:25

Mm-hmm.

Caroline 27:25

girlfriends and, I was like, can we, get seats way in the back? Because crowds make me nervous. you know?

Anne 27:31

Especially now that you've read Carrie.

Caroline 27:32

Right.

Anne 27:33

Well, Karen brings up the question, how much should we judge these mob wives? there's a lot of discourse around the very, very, very sad mob girlfriend death in the Sopranos. So is the gaslighting, the infidelity, the threat worth the fur coats, and being next to the stage at the Copa Cabana.

Caroline 27:51

We go on this journey with Carmela as well in Sopranos How much can you really be mad at his behavior when you are aware of it when you spend so much time? Thankfully, taking the, I need this much like that scene when she's like,

Anne 28:06

Transactional relationship.

Caroline 28:08

money she needs. she knows where that money came from and how he got it,

Anne 28:12

Yeah. She's not naive by then

Caroline 28:13

Right.

Anne 28:14

where she is at the beginning. she's like sparkling and glowing on that wedding day when there's that never ending line of envelopes full of cash.

Caroline 28:21

It reminded me of when I first went to the college we went to everyone was named like Colleen,

Anne 28:28

Ah, yeah,

Caroline 28:29

like

Anne 28:30

a lot of Irish Catholics there.

Caroline 28:31

Yes.

Anne 28:32

Yeah, we had like blonde call and brown call and Right.

Caroline 28:36

Yeah.

Anne 28:37

of different nicknames for the various Colleen.

Caroline 28:39

And red. There was a red too.

Anne 28:41

A lot

Caroline 28:42

we had multiple,

Anne 28:43

and errands. Yeah.

Caroline 28:44

yeah. Totally.

Anne 28:47

and I think she likes being protected. you know, when Henry beats up that guy.

Caroline 28:52

The neighbor.

Anne 28:52

Yeah, I mean, I remember when I was like 14 and I had a boyfriend in the stupidest way possible, you know, 14-year-old boyfriend relationship and some other boy liked me and word on the street was that my boyfriend had threatened him at the lockers. And I was like, I like that.

Caroline 29:07

Mm-hmm.

Anne 29:07

Like, Like I feel ashamed of feeling that way now. But I can see the appeal of having a knight and shining armor. But then there's the other side to that coin, because protectiveness and desire can become possessiveness. Jealousy, abuse,

Caroline 29:21

Yeah. When we say night in a shining armor, we mean Robinhood from the Disney

Anne 29:26

the fox. Yeah,

Caroline 29:28

We don't mean,

Anne 29:30

these guys are not real knights and shining armor. I wanna make that clear. And I would never promote or encourage violence to protect. A woman just'cause like a guy looked at her or something and you know, there's that throwaway line. It's Tommy's girlfriend who's like, gosh, if I even look at another man, he'll kill me. she's kind of laughing it off and it's like, oh, that's so funny.

Caroline 29:48

She seems to like it when she says that it's different

Anne 29:51

Yes.

Caroline 29:52

when Tommy's dating that other girl and she compliments the black singer and he's like

Anne 29:57

Sammy Davis Jr. Yeah.

Caroline 29:58

Yeah.

Anne 29:59

so pissed.

Caroline 30:00

totally forgot it was Sammy Davis Jr. yeah, he's really pissed. seems intimidated and like, God, you get mad at me for everything that seems like she's afraid of him and kind of over it. the other woman who is a famous actress, I meant to look her up. when she is eventually dating Tommy, she does seem to be like into his jealousy.

Anne 30:17

She's in Stir of Echoes. She's in a lot of things. I, I don't know her name off the top of my head, but I mean, basically all the women if, if you're a wife, you are kept in the fold, but the girlfriends are ultimately used gaslit, forgotten, like Janice. And I think it's really interesting the choice they make with Janice that he's got this apartment for her and it's all fancy in the worst way possible. then you see him like make eye contact with, Debbie Mazar, I can't remember her character's name, and you know, like, well, Janice is done And we just never hear from her again.

Caroline 30:45

Yeah, Sandy.

Anne 30:46

Sandy. Too bad. Karen and Janice couldn't go. Like the boy is mine on him. Instead of like turning on each other. Remember the boy is mine.

Caroline 30:55

I think that's a very nineties and later evolved thing, in media, to have the girls turn

Anne 31:01

Yes,

Caroline 31:02

blonde.

Anne 31:04

yes. instead it was like, well, you can't pick on the guy. You have no power with him. So you pick on the other woman. That's where you target your anger and your heart.

Caroline 31:12

Yeah. Because who controlled and wrote all media

Anne 31:15

Yes. Still to some extent. And that wouldn't work in this scenario anyway, like Karen's tied to him financially,

Caroline 31:21

and has kids.

Anne 31:22

and culturally. you do not leave your wife.

Caroline 31:25

Mm-hmm.

Anne 31:25

They make that very clear when, Jimmy and Polly show up at Janice's apartment and they're like, you are going back to her.

Caroline 31:30

Mm-hmm.

Anne 31:30

What did you think of the scene where she holds the gun in his face in bed? We should have put a trigger warning for abuse. Domestic abuse.

Caroline 31:38

it's hard because I can't think what I would be driven to do if I was gaslit that, I mean,'cause he's gaslighting for her from day one, that date when he stands her up and he's like, I thought it was next week. cause he back to back says, I thought it was next week. And then I thought you were gonna stand me up

Anne 31:55

Yeah.

Caroline 31:56

conversation, which are two different excuses. So, you know, immediately has no problem with lying to her. and so if you've been lied to and you have nothing in your life, but his life and his world

Anne 32:08

His money

Caroline 32:09

I don't know what I'd be driven to. But it was dumb because what is she gonna do, shoot him in the house like that with her kids home, like she was never gonna shoot him Obviously.

Anne 32:19

and she seems to be willing to let her kids be exposed to a lot. there's a very deliberate inclusion of them in these scenes. Whether she's yelling at Janice's apartment or they're crying in the prison when she starts yelling at him because Janice has visited, they are showing the, collateral damage of what's happening to these children.

Caroline 32:37

when she's like, you have a whore living in this. Like, is this a superintendent? that scene, because the kids are there. It reminded me of terms of endearment when she's Have you seen terms of endearment?

Anne 32:48

I haven't.

Caroline 32:49

Oh, it's so good. But there's a scene where, well, I don't wanna give anything away anyway.

Anne 32:54

Okay.

Caroline 32:54

who've seen it will know what.

Anne 32:56

I looked up this psychologist who studies the mafia in Sicily, and they say that families of mobsters have a high rate of suffering from mental illness. This was in Italy, so in the eighties and nineties when the Italian state began to dismantle and prosecute the mafia, the children especially started to experience profound existential crises. Their fathers were no longer perceived as men of honor, but as heartless criminals. And yeah, they have a lot of problems. So those kids would definitely be some of the collateral damage of this lifestyle, which is explored again, more in the Sopranos, right? Because we see those kids grow up and how they turn out.

Caroline 33:31

they

Anne 33:32

Um, just back to that scene on the bed, I wanted him so badly to be like, when she put the gun down, like, oh baby, I'm sorry. look what I've driven you to. And I don't know why I would expect that of him, but the way he throws her off the bed and puts the gun on her face and yells at her is so violent and brutal, and it's just really hard to watch. And yeah, he's a terrible person. I shouldn't expect anything else from him, but,

Caroline 33:54

He's a total

Anne 33:55

and yeah, and I think because he's played handsomely by Ray Liotta and we're getting his point of view and his perspective, you, you know, just like anytime you get. A character's perspective. You, you start to, you have some empathy for them and, want good things for them. You know, you feel anxiety with him in that scene when it's like, is he gonna get caught? But these are really bad people, with no morality or very little moral. They have a morality, they have a code, but it's not, it's not a good one.

Caroline 34:18

I do think that's the thing that is dangerous in a visual medium that comes across more clearly in book form or in podcast form. I guess in storytelling, you are trying to illustrate the perspective of someone who's evil or the bad guy, people don't always understand that because you are, Not trained, but not programmed.

Anne 34:41

Acclimated to empathize with the of view you're in.

Caroline 34:44

right. The protagonist is my hero. That's what we're used to It happens the same thing in Sopranos where all these people were like making Tony Soprano out to be the hero. And it's like, you're not supposed to like him. He's bad. You're not supposed to think he's cool and sympathize with him. He's the bad guy. and it's, it's like how people have misinterpreted Fight Club and the Matrix and had them out to be these manosphere heroes when they're like meant to talk about the hypocrisy and ridiculousness of exactly who those people,

Anne 35:18

A simplistic view of this movie, oh, look at these mafia guys and look at all the things they have. How cool, right. That you see in the kind of frat boy discourse around it. but I ultimately do not think this is glamorizing. Do you,

Caroline 35:31

You don't, and I don't, but I don't know that the people like, to your point in the beginning, the people who would've made you feel bad that you hadn't seen it, and who would've bro you about it? I don't think they got that message,

Anne 35:44

I mean you, if you look back at the early years and the contrast between when Henry is a kid and in the seventies, you see this gauzy. Nostalgia. And maybe it was just as savage back then, and Henry's just not seeing it. But I think by, the end, their lives are so toxic, they're all self-medicating. Like that final scene, you don't see Karen without a glass of wine in her hand. And she's like, I need a hit. You know? And Henry ends with nothing. His marriage has fallen apart. The people he thought were his friends are either in jail or planning to murder him, so I don't think it does glamorize crime, or at least it's not meant to. I think Scorsese's message is not,

Caroline 36:21

I agree personally, and I think the word I was looking for is accustomed to, um, but I do think that there's a probably a large contingent of people who watch this and they're like, well, if it weren't for the drugs, everything would've been fine.

Anne 36:34

They were doing bad stuff before the drugs.

Caroline 36:36

exactly.

Anne 36:37

for example, young Henry's mailman, Janice's boss. these people didn't do anything wrong. They were,

Caroline 36:42

I

Anne 36:44

they beat him so brutally, we already talked about the restaurant owner. Karen's mother had to put her house up for bail. Did she get that back? sons of Anarchy is another show that is exploring organized crime have you ever seen it? Sons of Anarchy?

Caroline 36:57

but my husband watched it and loved it.

Anne 36:59

It's fantastic, but there's certain. Things that characters do early on, particularly in their treatment of women and sex workers that is atrocious and appalling. And then you, but you get to know them and by season four you're liking this character and you like, wait a minute, what did he do in season one? Like, we shouldn't forget that he still did that horrible thing. But I think ultimately that show is about the downfall of Tara, his girlfriend, who gets sucked back in. And how she keeps escalating, what she's willing to do, and what she's willing to put up with until it's too late. it's such a good show, and it really explores that collateral damage. I do think, you know, when, when we talk about people with their still undeveloped frontal lobes, you know, they're susceptible to the glamorizing of this.

Caroline 37:38

Yeah.

Anne 37:38

And it makes me think of Angio Tate That man is a plague because he says outrageous things and he shows off his bugattis or whatever, and you've got this really unhealthy percentage of middle school boys admiring him. Right? And I get why people don't wanna be a goodie two shoes and work for shitty paychecks. You wanna be somebody, but this guy is evil, like, you shouldn't be breaking free of being a schnuck by trafficking the women in your life.

Caroline 38:03

Yeah.

Anne 38:03

Can we talk about contrast? because I think when we're having this discussion about glamorization, Of this lifestyle. What really stands out to me is that contrast. How it's very operatic and slow and stylish and seductive and the cars look old fashioned and then by the end it's all like coked out and horrible and stressful and choppy. love the contrast in cooking scenes

Caroline 38:25

Mm.

Anne 38:26

in prison, polly's slowly and meticulously slicing the garlic with a razor blade, and we've got somewhere beyond the sea crooning away. And then you contrast with the cooking scene in Henry's house on that final day, and he's so rushed and it's jarring. Whether it's the pace of his voice or the speed of the cuts or the noise. Like I remember when one of the characters like slams the phone down. It's all so jarring compared to that earlier cooking scene.

Caroline 38:48

Although when he's breading the veal, I was like, how do you get all the bread to stick like that? Because I make cutlets like weekly in my house. We call it hussy, which is what you call fried

Anne 38:57

Like Carolyn,

Caroline 38:58

Yeah. Cutlet. Caroline

Anne 38:59

I chose, well,

Caroline 39:00

I didn't see any, it looked like he was just going straight from,

Anne 39:04

he was dipping in the egg, I think, right?

Caroline 39:06

Yeah, but there was no flour. It was just egg to breadcrumb. I didn't see him do the flour, but maybe, maybe he had done the flour beforehand. Anyway, I, I thought they were impressively breaded that he didn't have enough breadcrumbs on his fingers. I mean, I feel, I'm like washing my hand in between

Anne 39:20

Yeah. Yeah. It gets gross.

Caroline 39:22

it's

Anne 39:22

Yeah.

Caroline 39:23

rough.

Anne 39:23

And then by the time he's sitting down for that dinner, he looks so miserable.

Caroline 39:27

I mean, they all look so coked out. it's a good reminder

Anne 39:30

No.

Caroline 39:31

isn't great. Sometimes when I'm really tired as a mom, just like God, it would be great if cocaine was still in Coca-Cola and I could just wake up really quick.

Anne 39:41

There is a thing called coffee.

Caroline 39:43

I don't like coffee.

Anne 39:45

Surely there's a way to make coffee palatable for you. Like there's so many ways that you can,

Caroline 39:50

what I do is I take a no dose. I can ingest caffeine. It's not the same.

Anne 39:54

Gosh, coffee's like my favorite thing in the world, but do we ever see Henry being a good father other than the fact that he's attempting to cook a meal? And I think there's such a performative aspect to that meal. I don't know if you've noticed this or if this is something that happens in your family, but women often do the day-to-day meals, the grind, and then men make the prestige meal.

Caroline 40:14

Sure, my husband has cooked for you when we camp and he makes like a fancy schmanzy situation. Yeah.

Anne 40:20

dad though.

Caroline 40:21

Yeah.

Anne 40:21

My dad will pick up dominoes, he'll pour you a bowl of cereal, he'll heat up a frozen burrito. But my dad's never cooked.

Caroline 40:29

Thank you, bill.

Anne 40:31

but, and so I think that's a pattern, and I'm not necessarily criticizing it, but I think it's a pattern we see in a lot of families that's at play when Henry is performing the facade of a special meal, when he is really got his mind elsewhere.

Caroline 40:42

And I think, you know, also in the case of my husband, like a lot of times it's like. You are not there or available and the other person is available. And so when you are available, you wanna make it special, which is great, But he, it's like he calls like, make sure you're stirring. Even when he is not there, he is like criticizing like, how good is it gonna be? And if it's not good, it's not my fault my brother didn't stir right or whatever.

Anne 41:02

Yeah.

Caroline 41:02

oh, about the father thing the only other time I can think of him being a good father is when he's trying to defend himself that Janice came to visit him in jail and she's yelling and like, let her smuggle the stuff, which is a good point, by the way. And he's like, you're, you're making the baby cry. And it's like, would you care if it didn't davo her? make you the victim and her the bad guy,

Anne 41:24

I don't think he actually cares about the baby crying. He cares that she's making a scene and he is using the baby as an excuse to get her to shut up.

Caroline 41:30

Totally. He's, he's doing Duro.

Anne 41:32

Another contrast scene I really like is the laughing, you know, there's that gif with. Liotta laughing, Where he's like leaning back and is so hard. It's, it's, you know, when Tommy's telling his funny story then you see Tommy telling another story later on and his laughter is there, but it's so forced, he's so on edge. And again, I, believe that scene was put in there deliberately to show the genuine laughter with the forced laughter when things are falling apart. And I cannot remember either story. another is the music, the soundtrack. So good. Do you have a favorite song in there?

Caroline 42:05

I remember being shocked cause we were 10 when Eric Clapton came out with his acoustic version of Layla. And that was really big. I remember learning that version of the song before I had heard the original version of the song. And maybe also watching Goodfellas before I heard a, a version that didn't cut it off before the end part. And so not realizing at all that the scene with all of the dead bodies after Hanza was the end of Layla. I just being shocked by that.

Anne 42:37

That music is so good in that scene. It just hairs perfectly.

Caroline 42:41

So that's

Anne 42:42

I I've always had a soft spot for somewhere beyond the sea,

Caroline 42:45

Hmm.

Anne 42:45

Do you remember, iPad Nanos?

Caroline 42:47

Sure I had one.

Anne 42:48

You would have like preload your songs on it. I was explaining that to my daughter the other day. Like, you would have to actually have to choose ahead of time.

Caroline 42:54

Mm-hmm.

Anne 42:54

and I remember I would run by to that song like if I felt like it had a good beat for running. So I, I have some nostalgia for that. It's not a normal choice

Caroline 43:02

I

Anne 43:02

for a running song. It's probably because my grandfather loved it. And, you know, we would listen to all the Tony Bennett Frank Center. yeah. It's, it's there, it's deep inside. It's smothered by the Irish, but it's there. Um, and I love that. And then he kissed me in the wonder reflecting the romancing of her that is happening the seduction into this lifestyle.

Caroline 43:23

There are

Anne 43:23

Yeah. It's,

Caroline 43:24

music choices in this. It's really hard to choose.

Anne 43:27

which is another link between our most recent episode sinners, which also has fantastic music. another thing I love about it is all the recognizable faces. I feel like almost every person is also in Sopranos, so many. and then the dumb and Dumber, the gas man. the guy with the ulcer.

Caroline 43:45

Oh,

Anne 43:45

He's early well, in dumb and dumb. He's like, had they know I got guess.

Caroline 43:48

I,

Anne 43:49

but in this, he's early. he tells them about the Air France thing,

Caroline 43:53

oh,

Anne 43:54

It's in an early scene.

Caroline 43:55

him.

Anne 43:56

Tobin Bell from SA is Jigsaw from SA is, the parole officer. I think. I thought I saw the mayor from Ghostbusters, but I thought that was the police officer. But when I looked it up, it wasn't him. We've already talked about Samuel Jackson, Debbie Mak, Christopher. Spider. The actress from Stir Echoes Clay Davis from The Wire is the doctor who gives him Valium.

Caroline 44:17

he's, yeah. At the end.

Anne 44:19

And I don't know this guy's name, but the guy with like the helmet hair and the eyebrows is like the weirdest looking guy I've ever seen.

Caroline 44:23

Oh yeah. He's in

Anne 44:25

He's the one in the freezer? Yeah. Yeah.

Caroline 44:27

Yeah.

Anne 44:27

He ends up in the freezer. Weird looking guy. That hair's gotta go.

Caroline 44:30

yeah,

Anne 44:31

like if you've got eyebrows like that, you can't also have hair like that.

Caroline 44:33

yeah.

Anne 44:34

Pick one.

Caroline 44:34

Yeah,

Anne 44:35

one other thing that I noticed about. Henry when Karen flushes the coke down the toilet and he's like, why'd you do that, Karen? Why'd you do that? I was thinking about Rose. Why did you do that, rose, when Rose gets off the boat and Leonard DiCaprio's, like,

Caroline 44:49

though.

Anne 44:50

But like the ca, the way they spoke, it was like the same,

Caroline 44:52

I mean, yes. But, they would have found it he yells at

Anne 44:56

they would've found it.

Caroline 44:56

and she ends up being sorry, but it's like, don't be sorry that was

Anne 45:01

You saved him. I guess, yeah. You, she

Caroline 45:03

on parole and able to offload$60,000 worth of Coke? I don't think so.

Anne 45:08

Okay., We haven't really talked about Jimmy as much. De Niro.

Caroline 45:12

I have a really superficial thing upfront to talk about with De Niro. O other than God, I never thought he was attractive except I love him and Godfather too. I think he's very sexy in that. But he I thought he was a little sexy here,

Anne 45:24

he's sexy in this with his, with his smart looking glasses.

Caroline 45:28

he's

Anne 45:29

Again, I don't know why. It makes people look smart to have glasses. It, it indicates poor vision. It has nothing to do with intelligence, but like, I don't know. He looks good in those slutty little glasses. Right?

Caroline 45:38

Yeah, right. Slightly little glasses. That's right. Put them back on. I was noticing for the first time that when they're having the dinner with Scorsese's mom slash pei's mom, he's like rubbing the ketchup bottle to make the ketchup come out faster. like the old glass ketchup bottle. I've never seen anybody do that. Now I want, I want like an old school glass bottle to see if it works. He's like

Anne 46:00

I do that with nail polish.

Caroline 46:01

You do. You rub it like that, guys,

Anne 46:03

yeah. Somebody told me that if you shake,

Caroline 46:05

in this audio medium for me to be visually going.

Anne 46:08

somebody told me that if you shake nail polish, you get bubbles in it, but if you roll it upside down, you don't,

Caroline 46:13

Oh, rolling. There you go. That's what I was doing. I was

Anne 46:15

yeah. That's the word. Caroline was rolling the imaginary bottle of ketchup in her hands.

Caroline 46:20

is the writer.

Anne 46:23

Well, it's one word I remember this time. Um, so I really like the moment when Jimmy decides to whack Murray. Maury, his name?

Caroline 46:33

I thought it was Maury because it's not spelled the way I would think. It's not spelled the way that Maury Povich smells, spells it.

Anne 46:40

Mels it.

Caroline 46:41

It smelled like,

Anne 46:44

It's spelled,

Caroline 46:45

it spelled like M-O-R-R-I or something

Anne 46:48

Well, he's annoying.

Caroline 46:49

Yeah, he's super

Anne 46:51

Like

Caroline 46:51

he

Anne 46:51

I get why

Caroline 46:52

money. Like, fuck you

Anne 46:53

he does deserve his money, but like,

Caroline 46:54

to everyone.

Anne 46:55

pick a time don't be such like a yippy little dog at a sociopath's feet. Right. and I like the moment where you see, and I think it's maybe in the same moment when like they're laughing and Ray Liotta laugh is forced. They're all sitting around and you see a look Passover, Jimmy's face, and he's done with this guy and they're so friendly as they're walking out to the car and they're making him feel so at ease. And then just like that with the snap of the fingers, they're stabbing him in the back of the head and just like, oh, thank God that's over. Like he's just annoying and he is annoying, but it's so cavalier the way they get rid of him.

Caroline 47:26

He is annoying, but he's also right, like a lot of annoying

Anne 47:29

He's right.

Caroline 47:30

I always felt that way about piglet to other annoying characters. They're like annoying, but they're also usually correct.

Anne 47:38

Yeah. Piglet. Yeah. Yeah. Piglet was definitely, usually it was correct. We used to be very upset when Owl took Piglet's house in the very blustery day. It was like, what the fuck, piglets stand up for yourself.

Caroline 47:53

Yeah. Another annoying, but often correct characters, C3 po. it's like

Anne 47:59

yeah. Listen to Crio.

Caroline 48:00

three po usually is correct. you should be freaking out. This is a disaster.

Anne 48:05

This is a disaster yet. Never told me the odds.

Caroline 48:09

Yeah. oh, one thing I forgot to mention about, I, well, this is so stupid, but I wrote down like, why would you shovel in a dress shirt? Because remember when they have to move the body, they call him and they're like, oh, somebody bought that property. Which I think also happens on Sopranos. They have to like

Anne 48:22

It does, yeah.

Caroline 48:23

After the fact. they like go up and shovel the body and he's all puking and everything from the smell and like Joe Pei's wearing a dress shirt with a tie. Why would you

Anne 48:30

Did you see that moment when Henry's getting dressed and you see how many suits he has in his closet? He's got like 40 suits.

Caroline 48:37

why would you

Anne 48:38

There's just one Well, maybe one of'em is your burial suit, you know, when you bury bodies

Caroline 48:43

Good point. Good point.

Anne 48:45

You can afford new suits if you're, stealing them all the time from airport deliveries.

Caroline 48:50

Mm-hmm.

Anne 48:50

Let's talk about the most upsetting or darkest moment, or scariest moment.

Caroline 48:55

I was actually thinking about this earlier today. I was like, what am I gonna say when Annie asked me this, because I've watched this so many times.

Anne 49:01

None of it's upsetting to you.

Caroline 49:03

it's not, none of it. I just, I don't know if I could pick like a scariest scene. what's yours?

Anne 49:09

When Karen suspects or realizes that Jimmy's gonna kill her, and she's walking away from him and he's like gesturing her forward and there's no music in that scene.

Caroline 49:19

That was the thing I was gonna ask you earlier that I forgot about. do you think Jimmy was gonna whack her

Anne 49:23

Yes,

Caroline 49:24

Yeah, I do

Anne 49:25

because he's acting suss, right?

Caroline 49:27

is?

Anne 49:27

he would walk her down in another scenario and he's really checking to make sure she gets into that shop.

Caroline 49:33

Over there

Anne 49:34

And also we know he's not afraid to whack a wife because of that scene where the kids find the body of the pink car under the highway.

Caroline 49:42

Mm-hmm.

Anne 49:43

she's fair game, He could. Kill her. And she knows a lot. Like she's complicit at this point. So I think absolutely.

Caroline 49:48

Yeah. I'm gonna be boring and pick the same scene.

Anne 49:51

Okay. when there's music so many other times in this movie, like music is ever present. To have no music in that scene makes it feel really real. We've already talked about when Karen straddles Henry and puts a gun to his head, that was upsetting. We've talked about the gruesome violence, like pistol whipping Karen's neighbor or the mailman, which I think is tough because when you live by the sword, you die by the sword, right? But the mailman did not live by the sword, so that bothered me.

Caroline 50:15

I think another thing that, I guess this isn't a scene in the film, but to me watching it this time, I thought a lot about the aspect of they even shot him in the head so his mother couldn't give him an open casket, which new news to me, but you. Really like her, you've met his mother, you know her. She seems like a great lady. She's old, her only kid. She talks about, I haven't seen you in a while. You know, like, she's so

Anne 50:41

Sweet. Yeah.

Caroline 50:42

And so I think for me it was just thinking about her, dealing with that

Anne 50:47

Yeah. And'cause maybe she's not complicit, right? Maybe she doesn't really know what he's up to.

Caroline 50:52

No, she knows. when he's going to the meeting, she's like, congratulate, you know? He,

Anne 50:56

oh, okay. Okay. Yeah. I guess she is a Sicilian.

Caroline 50:58

She absolutely knows,

Anne 51:00

Never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line.

Caroline 51:03

mm.

Anne 51:03

Alright. horror beneath the surface, MLMs,

Caroline 51:06

Yeah.

Anne 51:07

that hostess party that Karen goes to, when she's criticizing them for their bad skin, their pants suits and double knits. What are even double knits? I don't even know. She's very judgy here.

Caroline 51:17

She's so judgey. I mean, it's like you can't do anything about what you're born into. So if this is like your world, what, what are you gonna do?

Anne 51:24

Yeah.

Caroline 51:24

be a part of it. know, I think that's the thing that Sopranos explore as well. Meadow kind of goes through that journey a bit.

Anne 51:31

Yeah. Is she gonna be a part of it or not? I think also Karen's family, not that their house is particularly impressive, but they seem Sort of like old country club money, because they have that scene in the country club where she's like, you just signed for it. And Henry doesn't get that. So there's the very new, ill-gotten money versus old money. And we see her judging that. Another deeper horror is the hills taste in interior design.

Caroline 51:51

Oh my God. The, the wall behind the stone thing

Anne 51:55

Yeah.

Caroline 51:56

it's

Anne 51:56

Yeah. and then it's like the worst crappiest TV you've ever seen when we compare the TVs today. But like yeah, the moving wall and the FST Christmas tree. Sorry if you like white Christmas trees, but white tree and purple ornaments, like it's horrific. And he just bought it'cause it was expensive. He's like, I bought the most expensive tree.

Caroline 52:12

yeah,

Anne 52:13

It reminded me of Jeremy Jam's house. In Parks and Rec

Caroline 52:16

yeah.

Anne 52:16

he has all like miscellaneous Asian inspired decor.

Caroline 52:20

Or like Biff

Anne 52:21

Yeah. Oh, Biff too. Yeah, definitely.

Caroline 52:23

who is based on Trump. So Trump.

Anne 52:25

Oh God. well that is a true horror. If we see what Trump has done to the Oval Office, it's like gilded right now. If you've seen any pictures of it, it's horrific. can be fixed. Not everything else he's doing can be. okay. Drug abuse and addiction obviously is a deeper horror. We see. is it Sandy Debbie Mazars character snorting herself to death? you compare her in that initial scene when she like first draws Henry's attention to how like cooked out she is by the end.

Caroline 52:48

She's so beautiful. My gosh.

Anne 52:50

She's, but it's a very toxic life that destroyed her. Oh, a fun fact about her. Apparently when she trips in that scene, she kind of like backs into the wall. That was not planned, but they kept it.

Caroline 53:01

It was perfect.

Anne 53:02

It worked. Yeah. casual misogyny that can lead to violence. Sopranos takes that misogyny and treatment of women a step further, develops it more. so I guess we've got like a continuum from Godfather to Sopranos. Uh, Goodfellas is somewhere in the middle in terms of how it's developing

Caroline 53:19

Totally.

Anne 53:20

treatment of women. They are not Goodfellas

Caroline 53:22

No.

Anne 53:23

this is a very ironic title. We've already talked about the glamorization of crime, and the nostalgia. I mean, have you ever followed John Hodgman's discussion of nostalgia? he says Nostalgia is a toxic impulse. It is the twin yearning, delusion that A, the past was better, it wasn't. And b, it can be recaptured. It can't. leads at best to bad art. Movie versions of old TV shows and sad dads watching Fox News. At worst, it leads to revisionist extremist politics. Fundamentalist terrorism, and the victory of a narcissist. Manhattan cartoon may be millionaire and cramped up creep. Do you think nostalgia is a toxic impulse?

Caroline 53:59

much like everything, if you take it to an extreme Yes. I think there's a lot of healthy nostalgia going to CTLC, salt and Peppa and in Vogue is a healthy is a healthy nostalgia trying

Anne 54:11

I agree.

Caroline 54:12

the save act pass. So that married women who took their husband's name can't vote is not healthy Nostalgia.

Anne 54:20

MAGA is not healthy Nostalgia. deeper horror, I,

Caroline 54:22

anything.

Anne 54:23

no, another deeper horror I think is child soldiers, because I think these kids are essentially child soldiers. And you know, we see that with, Michael B. Jordan as Wallace in the Wire, right? The recruitment of children, finding kids who are vulnerable, from tough backgrounds, perhaps who are abused, giving them a family, and then they're yours forever. And Jimmy, the real Jimmy was in foster care. He was sexually abused, he would've been a vulnerable kid to be recruited to a life of crime. And I'm not sure if that's how that worked for him, but I imagine it did.

Caroline 54:51

Mm-hmm.

Anne 54:52

I don't know as much about cults as you do, but having watched Heaven's Gate, this made me think about cult tactics. the warmth, the love bombing, the way they're all there for Henry as a kid when he first gets arrested, and then Henry's doing the same thing to Karen. And then, there's that isolation that they only hang out with each other. They're cut off from outsiders.

Caroline 55:11

They have their own language for things. They call it this thing, that guy from downtown. You

Anne 55:15

The language,

Caroline 55:15

yeah.

Anne 55:16

the new names, the nicknames, klo.

Caroline 55:18

Mm-hmm.

Anne 55:19

But then, just like in AOC cult, it escalates, Heaven's Gate didn't start with castration and suicide, right? It built over years of exposure to a abnormal situation. an abnormal situation starts to become normalized, which Karen talks about in her narration.

Caroline 55:35

Yeah.

Anne 55:35

And I think it was in that same article about the guy who studies the psychology of the mafia in Italy. Professor Girolamo Verso and he's at the University of Palermo, and he says, becoming part of cost Nostra is like entering a cult in which members must leave behind their own identity as long as they remain part of the mafia. They do not experience remorse or regret, they do not feel pain or sorrow even when it comes to killing and their own self is suppressed because they can identify totally with the mafia and their thoughts conform to those of the clan.

Caroline 56:03

Mm-hmm.

Anne 56:04

in a way it is a cult.

Caroline 56:05

Absolutely. I agree.

Anne 56:06

Another deeper horror that we've only touched on is the racism.

Caroline 56:10

Yeah.

Anne 56:10

the guy who says. Two N Words just stole my truck. that reminded me of this book. Did you ever come across the True Crime book? The Man From the Train.

Caroline 56:19

I don't think so. It sounds

Anne 56:21

So basically, you know how in like the late 18 hundreds there were like a lot of ax murders

Caroline 56:25

of course.

Anne 56:26

you know, that could just be because people had axes, right? axes were lying around. So it's like if you're gonna murder someone, this is a way that makes sense to do it. But the writer of this went back and traced Bill and Rachel McCarthy, James, they went back and traced all these murders and noticed that many of them are solved, Because they pinned it on local black men who lived on the outskirts of town and were sometimes lynched. the townspeople were like, okay, that's done. and then the perp was already on the way to the next town. So basically this book kind of takes all these different ex murders that happened and shows how they were within like walking distance of a train station.

Caroline 56:59

Mm-hmm.

Anne 56:59

they didn't come up as unsolved

Caroline 57:01

That's why it

Anne 57:02

they were solved.

Caroline 57:03

I think Karen and Georgia talk about it because they covered that Iowa family,

Anne 57:08

The

Caroline 57:09

Vasil, the Vasil Basilica. The

Anne 57:11

Alaska. Yeah. However you pronounce that.

Caroline 57:14

Ska.

Anne 57:14

murders. Yeah. So then maybe it was this guy.

Caroline 57:16

They talked about that book, but I haven't read it, but yes,

Anne 57:20

So the reason I bring that up is because when that guy in the diner leaves his truck unlocked and this goes, oh, two black guys just took it, somebody was probably arrested for that crime

Caroline 57:28

Sure.

Anne 57:29

it was really Henry and Jimmy. Right? Or was it Tommy Henry? I can't remember. But like, so again, that ties back into a lot of things like our West of Memphis episode with like people being arrested for crimes they didn't commit.

Caroline 57:39

a long history of that.

Anne 57:40

And then there's the Sammy Davis Jr scene where Tommy is being very fragile about the fact that his girlfriend could possibly find a black man attractive, Do you have questions?

Caroline 57:48

I didn't note any questions because I've watched this a million times. What are you?

Anne 57:52

I mean, my only question is like real life. How are Karen and the kids now, did she ever reconnect with her family? Did her mom lose the house? things like that.

Caroline 57:59

yeah, I was curious where he went to live. I tried to freeze the screen to look at the license plate'cause they go by a license plate,

Anne 58:05

Oh, okay.

Caroline 58:06

trying to pause it, but they go by it really fast, I think probably on purpose. one other time money converter thing I did do was at the end Jimmy gives him 32$200, which for a lifetime, he says, which was$12,690. Which I mean, that's not nothing

Anne 58:22

It's not nothing. No, it's enough to like go get an apartment somewhere, right? At that time of. Start over. Get a job as a nobody.

Caroline 58:29

job guy, put first last and deposit and get a job.

Anne 58:33

Yeah. It always amazes me how if the tap is turned off, they have nothing,

Caroline 58:36

Nothing.

Anne 58:37

like they're not saving anything. And maybe, you know, if you get arrested, all that's seized, right. But to have nothing except the assets in your possession.

Caroline 58:45

When they were like asking for money and begging for money and they had no money, like why didn't they sell some of the jewelry and the whatever crap, you know, that all the tacky shit they had had value, go pawn that.

Anne 58:56

And I wanna just clarify, I know there's plenty of people who have nothing besides the assets in their hands, right? Because they're living paycheck to paycheck. I'm not talking about them, I'm talking about people who have. Tons of money coming in, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars coming in from a life of crime who still end up with nothing because they're spending it all.

Caroline 59:13

Right.

Anne 59:13

Do you have any criticism?

Caroline 59:14

the age thing

Anne 59:15

Yeah,

Caroline 59:15

a little distracting at times.

Anne 59:18

I didn't find it distracting because I didn't really care. I was like, all right, he's old, but like it didn't bother me because I just was like, well, this is the guy. And I guess I didn't really have as much background into the fact that the real guy was so young. Even though you rationally know he is young because you see Minnie Joe Pehi. But

Caroline 59:34

I've never really loved at the end how he like gets off the stand and talks to the camera and then

Anne 59:40

that was my criticism.

Caroline 59:42

straight at the camera. I've always felt like that was very outta place with the

Anne 59:46

Yeah.'cause he breaks the fourth wall, but he only does it once, so it's a bit jarring. If it was used throughout, I think it would have made more sense.

Caroline 59:52

I thought it was okay when he's standing there being like the schnuck in the whatever, like if it were just that, but how he is in the courtroom and gets off the stand,

Anne 1:00:03

Yeah. That's the part that I didn't like.

Caroline 1:00:05

we didn't talk about it earlier, but in the music, I love how they do my way. But the punk version,

Anne 1:00:11

that was good. Every song is from the era it is in.

Caroline 1:00:15

Mm-hmm.

Anne 1:00:15

anachronistic songs. I mean, I guess part of me thought the movie ended really abruptly. But I also think maybe that reflects how these gangsters lived. Like I won't spoil the final scene of Sopranos, if you know, you know, but you look at Tommy thinking he's gonna be made and then it's just, it's gone. He's done. you can go from being on top of your world to being a nobody or dead so quickly in that lifestyle.

Caroline 1:00:36

Because it is like kind of a following a real life story. I, I didn't have a big problem with that. And I think you're right. I do think it's important to remember that's a big part of that life

Anne 1:00:47

One criticism, Samuel l Jackson's a bit underused. Does he even have a line I mean, I think he does talk a little bit before they shoot him.

Caroline 1:00:53

Yeah. He does

Anne 1:00:54

I'm glad that other movies let him talk because he's awesome.

Caroline 1:00:57

like Deep Blue Sea, his

Anne 1:01:00

Yes. Yeah, we'll have to do that at some point. I was thinking about that.

Caroline 1:01:03

Oh my

Anne 1:01:04

Do you think it's a,

Caroline 1:01:04

to.

Anne 1:01:04

let's definitely do it. Do you think it's sexist? Is this actually a bro movie?

Caroline 1:01:08

no, I actually think that, I mean, gosh, I'm really not gonna be a good expert on this. I can just hear people being angry with my take, but I should say it's hard to say because this is a story about real people and we don't know the real wife would have told her story, Because this is from his perspective. But it does illustrate that she wasn't like oblivious idiot, right off the bat. She knows what's up she admits finding the power attractive and stuff like that. And there are people who feel that way. Genuinely.

Anne 1:01:40

he's a complex. Character.

Caroline 1:01:42

Yeah. She's a complex character and I think no, so I don't, I don't think so. Do you?

Anne 1:01:46

And I, I ultimately think because it explores Karen's perspective, it's pretty clearly criticizing the treatment and sidelining of women.

Caroline 1:01:54

Yeah. I mean, I think it does a good job of, explaining that she's anbu, emotionally abused person, and then in

Anne 1:02:00

Yeah,

Caroline 1:02:01

physically abused,

Anne 1:02:02

Does it pass the Bechdel test? And I don't really care if it does, because I don't need every movie to pass the Betel test, but

Caroline 1:02:08

because the

Anne 1:02:09

Does it

Caroline 1:02:10

they're not talking about men, they're talking about

Anne 1:02:12

good? Yeah, you're right. True. Yeah. I want more movies to pass the Bechdel test, but I don't need every movie to pass it, especially if it's shoehorned in. Yeah.

Caroline 1:02:20

I wish that most of them did.

Anne 1:02:22

It would be nice, All right. Survival. What do we learn?

Caroline 1:02:25

Don't be in the mafia.

Anne 1:02:26

Yeah.

Caroline 1:02:26

the mob.

Anne 1:02:27

don't whack aade, man,

Caroline 1:02:29

Seriously.

Anne 1:02:30

I don't know how relevant this advice is. I don't, I doubt the Venn diagram of our listeners who are probably mostly female millennials and Gen X and the mafia, there's probably not much crossover, but just in case.

Caroline 1:02:41

Mm-hmm. oh, one of my favorite pieces of advice from Alice in Wonderland that the caterpillar says, keep your temper.

Anne 1:02:48

keep your temper. Yes. Trust your gut. Karen's Spidey Sense was picking up on that threat from Jimmy. When you get that feeling, get out of there.

Caroline 1:02:56

Don't do coke

Anne 1:02:57

Don't you cook? Don't annoy soko Pats.

Caroline 1:02:59

Yeah.

Anne 1:03:00

the restaurant owner, Maury, like, take a hint. and yeah, as I said before, one punch can kill, in reality, if you pulverize someone's face with a pistol, they're gonna have a brain injury or die. I guess. Be careful about the allure of easy money In real life, there generally aren't shortcuts. There's a price. Someone else might pay it other than you, but there's always a price. it's a faustian bargain like sinners and stay away from MLMs,

Caroline 1:03:24

yes.

Anne 1:03:24

lest you encounter women with bad skin pants, suits, and double knits. All right. Do you have a pallet cleanser?

Caroline 1:03:29

oh, one last thing I wanted to say about Henry that I noticed. we talked about De Niro did such a great job in this whole thing, but he cries

Anne 1:03:38

Hmm.

Caroline 1:03:38

Tommy gets killed. And I noticed throughout the whole thing, Henry never cries except when he's out of money. That's

Anne 1:03:46

Yeah.

Caroline 1:03:46

cries.

Anne 1:03:47

But he does show more empathy. Like he's the one who's kind of showing empathy for Maury. He's the one who is upset about spider dying or being killed. he seems to be the more empathetic, reasonable human being throughout this. But you're right. Yeah. He doesn't cry.

Caroline 1:04:01

the only time he cries. And then, I was impressed when he is, they're having the witness protection conversation and he's like, I'm not doing this without you. that was the one part when I was surprised. By a decision that he made I I, I found it interesting. Anyway,

Anne 1:04:15

I mean, it was abusive and codependent and toxic, but you know, they were together, if that makes sense.

Caroline 1:04:21

they did not end up together. They did divorce eventually.

Anne 1:04:23

Yeah,

Caroline 1:04:24

okay. So yeah, I have a pellet cleanser. I don't know how many of you guys watched jury duty, which is a great mockumentary that everyone except one person was in on James Morrison's in it. they have a season two, it's called Company Retreat, and it is out now. It is delightful. I highly recommend.

Anne 1:04:42

Hey, one of my pellet cleansers is saying, Hey, oh. Like the Sopranos, like when we were re-watching The Sopranos, every time our kids would do something outta line, we'd be like, Hey. Oh. And like we really got into the habit of talking like that for a while, and I noticed they do that in this too. Okay. Homework. we are sticking with early nineties classics that are true crime and horror adjacent, and we will be discussing Jurassic Park next week, which I'm so excited about because I love it so much. I had Jurassic Park on VHS unlike, um, Goodfellas. No way. Okay. I've seen it so many times. I decided I wanted to do it as we were preparing for sinners because in two separate interviews I listened to with Ryan Kogler, he talks about that film being an inspiration for him. And then when I saw Samuel Jackson turn up and Goodfellas his name is Stax, which is one of Michael. Be Jordan's characters, names, and sinners. I was like, ah, this is all connected. So hold onto your butts. We're doing Jurassic Park.

Caroline 1:05:35

Yeah, we've had a couple of heavy weeks, so it's nice for us to go to our, like, formative, how do we get into this Pathway movie?

Anne 1:05:44

that we will finally be doing Devil In The White City by Eric Larson, which we've been discussing for a while. Alright, what recommendations do you have?

Caroline 1:05:50

Okay. So, on the topic of Manosphere, there is a new, documentary out called Inside the Manosphere by Louis Thoreau that, I watched 50% of and then had to turn off because it was too upsetting. but. We'll eventually finish and of course adolescence. These are important things to think about when we talk about to toxic masculinity. then in terms of mafia stuff, we got a Bronx Tale. obviously Godfather Sopranos. That's kind of it for my like organized crime thing. But I did love Mob Wives. I thought it was really fun to watch.

Anne 1:06:23

okay. Is that a reality TV or,

Caroline 1:06:25

it was a

Anne 1:06:26

or,

Caroline 1:06:26

TV show. Big Ang. I, I found her very entertaining. don't intend to enjoy reality TV shows, but it was good. I, I liked it a lot.

Anne 1:06:35

I like my tv. Scripted in and carefully, deliberately, cultivated like this

Caroline 1:06:40

I, I think the thing is that, you know, reality TV isn't actually reality. So like, I find the mental gymnastics I'm doing and be like, how much of this is real? And how much of this were they told you to, it is just exhausting. So anyway.

Anne 1:06:52

takes you out. For another one where the director's mom is in it. When Harry met Sally, Okay. Always when Harry met Sally.

Caroline 1:06:59

mom is all have what

Anne 1:07:01

All right, Pete.

Caroline 1:07:02

in terms of music, the song My Way always makes me think of Sing, which my children were obsessed with. I

Anne 1:07:09

That's a good movie. Yeah.

Caroline 1:07:11

times. So I always think of that when I hear that song. Sandy

Anne 1:07:15

Yeah.

Caroline 1:07:16

of Empire Records. The actress who, I couldn't remember her name. You said her name like eight times, but I just know of her as Rex Manning's agent.

Anne 1:07:25

And now I'm blanking on her name even though I said it eight times. Uh, whatever.

Caroline 1:07:28

Anyway, I think I've mentioned before, the documentary Fierce City. Which I've never watched, but I have listened to True crime, obsessed talk about it. And then of course I'm gonna recommend True Crime Obsessed, because they have covered a few like mafia documentaries I never would've watched in very interesting ways. And also Jillian is a huge good fellows fan. She cites it, quotes it, especially the fuck you pay me multiple times. So, wanted to thank her again for coming on our pod and give her a shout out here. That's kind of it for

Anne 1:07:54

Yeah. If you're a true crime obsessed fan and you're only just joining us, check out our previous episode on West of Memphis when Jillian Pennsylvania was our guest.

Caroline 1:08:03

Yes. of

Anne 1:08:03

All right. For my recommendations, You could read Nicholas Pledge's book Wise Guy, which is what this is based on. I thought of the series the Night of with Reese Ahmed for addiction

Caroline 1:08:14

that's

Anne 1:08:14

caused by Prison Time. It's really good. Right? I love him too. He's also in Rogue One, which is one of my favorite movies of all time.

Caroline 1:08:21

I'm

Anne 1:08:21

He's great. Yeah. Witness Protection reminded me of our episode two Sweet Bobby, which has a witness protection element.

Caroline 1:08:29

that's right.

Anne 1:08:30

the kids Finding the body under the bridge made me think of Stand By Me. as I said, the studio, which you have also recommended, Caroline, in episode one, Scorsese is in it. let's see. Stir of Echoes came out around the same time as the sixth Sense and sort of gotten forgotten that, Kevin Bacon movie. But, the actress who plays Tommy's girlfriend who isn't allowed to look at other men is in it. I wanna recommend the book Prince of Providence, about corrupt Mayor Buddy ancy by journalist Mike Stanton, who I know. I used to chat with him at Family Barbecues because my aunt and uncle worked for the Providence Journal and my uncle was a consultant on the podcast Crime Town about organized crime in Providence, which doesn't get as much attention as like New York and Chicago and Boston. But it's a fantastic podcast. really looking forward to re-listening.

Caroline 1:09:12

definitely gonna do

Anne 1:09:13

Yeah. And then for some fun ones mean Girls, because Henry was friends with toxic people who could turn on him at any moment. And in addition to the Hills Interior design, reminding me of Jeremy Jam's house in Parks and Rec, There's a mural in the background of the courthouse at one point that made me think of Parks and Rec, where it's showing like the colonialism and like Native Americans., I think it's in the courthouse when it, Henry Hill is a kid. And I was like, oh, just like in the town hall at Parks and. Alright. Anything else?

Caroline 1:09:40

I don't think so.

Anne 1:09:41

Okay. Thanks for listening.

Caroline 1:09:42

it.

Anne 1:09:43

It's, it's great.

Caroline 1:09:43

It's so

Anne 1:09:44

If you are young and this came out before your time, please check it out.

Caroline 1:09:48

Definitely.

Anne 1:09:48

you were like me, didn't watch it in college because of the bro discourse, check it out. It's more feminist than you think.

Caroline 1:09:55

yeah, and I should have mentioned Unspool. I did enjoy most of that episode. I always enjoy Paul Shear's perspective on these movies for sure.

Anne 1:10:03

okay. Thanks for listening to all the things podcasters ask you to do, like and subscribe. Write us a review on iTunes. You can email us at John to Darkness pod@gmail.com. You can follow us on Facebook, Instagram, or threads. We're also on YouTube now if you prefer to listen there. And most importantly, tell a like-minded friend who's also drawn to darkness. And if like Shirley Jackson, you delight in what you fear. Join us next time here on Drawn To Darkness. Debbie Mazar just came back to me.

Caroline 1:10:28

You have to keep that in.

Anne 1:10:41

Welcome back to

Caroline 1:10:42

Sorry,

Anne 1:10:46

Why did you make that noise?

Caroline 1:10:47

I was pouring my seltzer.

Anne 1:10:49

Obviously you had to narrate, give the sound effects of the Seltzer.

Caroline 1:10:52

Okay, I'm gonna mute myself

Anne 1:10:55

Special shout out to Nancy Ano who painted our cover art. You can find her on Instagram at Nancy ano and to Harry Kidd for our intro and outro music. You can find him on Instagram at Harry J. Kidd and on Spotify.