36 - Jonathan Demme's Silence of the Lambs

In this episode of Drawn to Darkness, we dive into Jonathan Demme’s classic and deeply unsettling 1991 psychological horror-thriller, Silence of the Lambs.  We unpack the film’s use of dread over jump scares, the power of what is left unseen, the terrifying precision of Anthony Hopkins’ performance, Jodie Foster’s Clarice navigating the male gaze in a man’s world, and why Catherine Martin deserves more credit for being a total badass. We also discuss the book, the film’s real-life serial killer inspirations, the horror of charming and sophisticated monsters, the questionable logistics of pens and temporary cages, and why the final basement sequence remains absolutely harrowing.

Content & Spoiler Warning:

Violence, blood and gore, skinning and flaying, transphobia, kidnapping, serial murder, references to cannibalism, a dog in peril, bugs, a decapitated head, bloody fingernails, suicide, childhood trauma, and the male gaze. We also have a serious discussion upfront about the film’s harmful impact on the trans community, including how intent does not erase impact, how the movie tried and failed to distance Buffalo Bill from trans identity, and why representation matters when marginalised groups are repeatedly portrayed as jokes, deviants, or killers.

And of course we spoil The Silence of the Lambs.

Palate Cleanser:

Jessica Jones - if you feel like a Marvel binge.

Don’t Trust the B---- in Apartment 23 - James Van Der Beek playing a ridiculous version of himself, and a much lighter viewing experience after Buffalo Bill’s basement.

Recommendations:

For related podcasts, try the Unspooled episode on The Silence of the Lambs with Paul Holes and That Aged Well, and The Wine and Crime episode on cannibalism

For more serial killers, detectives & dark investigations:

Red Dragon, Criminal Minds, and Hannibal the TV show
Psycho and Texas Chainsaw Massacre - for other killers loosely inspired by Ed Gein

Seven
Zodiac
True Detective Season 1 and Night Country with Jodie Foster

Longlegs for a more recent comparison with a creepy lead performance

For Queer Joy & LGBTQ+ Representation to offset the transphobia:

The Rocky Horror Picture Show
Heated Rivalry

Scary Basements and horror beneath the surface:

Home Alone
The Black Phone
Barbarian
The Ring

Random Connections:

Home for the Holidays, directed by Jodie Foster

Old Gods of Appalachia for Clarice’s West Virginia background
Stranger Things Season 4, especially Nancy and Robin visiting Victor Creel
American Horror Story: Asylum

Love Actually for unreasonable standards of thinness
Super Troopers for the state trooper connection
Oklahoma! because Lecter says, “People will say we’re in love”
When Harry Met Sally for “Surrey with the Fringe on Top”

 Homework:

Watch Mindhunter. We’re discussing both seasons, so get as far as you can. Prepare for discussion about criminal profiling, Ed Kemper, the Behavioral Science Unit, and what makes a monster.

And remember: Beware of strangers in slings. Watch your pens. And do not turn your back on Hannibal Lecter.

 Special thanks to Nancy Azano for our cover art (Instagram: @nancyazano) and Harry Kidd for our music (Instagram: @harryjkidd, Spotify). 

Transcript

Anne 0:10

Welcome back to Drawn to Darkness, a sometimes weekly, sometimes biweekly podcast where we discuss our favorite horror and true crime. If you make jokes about rubbing the lotion on its skin when you get your kids ready for the beach, we're here for you. My name is Annie, and I'll be introducing Caroline to my favorite horror movies, podcasts, TV shows, and books.

Caroline 0:28

And my name is Caroline, and I'll be doing the same from the true crime side of things.

Anne 0:32

Question for you, Do you spook easily?

Caroline 0:34

mean, I get startled from people hiding behind doors or stuff like that easily, yeah.

Anne 0:39

scares get you.

Caroline 0:40

I don't believe in the supernatural as we've discussed at length, so I wouldn't, like,, spook from, People I don't expect, but If there, if there was like a weird noise in the house, I would just think there's mice in the wall.

Anne 0:50

So you don't, have to run to your car from the movies if you've seen something scary, or if you've watched a true crime documentary, you don't, check all your closets before you go to bed or anything like that?

Caroline 0:59

I don't check my closets, but I have mace.

Anne 1:02

Well, that's smart. Well, the reason I ask you this is because in the movie Silence of the Lambs, which we're discussing today, Jack Crawford asks Clarice whether she spooks easily before he sends her in to talk to Hannibal "The Cannibal" Lecter. before we get too far into, Silence of the Lambs, spoiler, trigger warning, there is blood and gore. There's skinning, flaying, at least reference to it. You see a sewn-together female suit. There is transphobia, which we're gonna talk about pretty soon. A dog is in peril. There's kidnapping, serial murder, references to cannibalism, a horrific beating of a guard, references to childhood trauma, suicide, the male gaze, bugs, yuck, a decapitated head. There's bloody fingernails, scratches, and if you're afraid of the dark, the final scene is absolutely harrowing. And as usual, we will be spoiling this 35-year-old movie. So if you haven't seen it yet, what are you waiting for? Go watch Silence of the Lambs and come back.

Caroline 1:55

did you mention flinging cum?

Anne 1:56

No, I forgot about that. Yeah, that is pretty awful. Yes. Okay, add to the trigger warnings. Yep.

Caroline 2:03

I think maybe if I could, like, jump into the extended trigger warning here. I have not actually, not even just one, but multiple trans family members. And, I think my relationship with this movie has certainly changed since that's been a part of my life. I just wanted to discuss this element of this movie early on because, you know, I know you and I like to have fun with stuff, and it's really hard to be entertained by something when there's something nagging at you. And in particular in this environment in the US when it comes to trans people, this movie has absolutely harmed the trans community, and has been acknowledged as doing so by the director, by the guy who played Buffalo Bill, by multiple people involved. it's not a question, it's an absolute. And I do think that at the time they were trying to not do that. but I think, harm was done, whether it was done without any intent of malice or harm.

Anne 2:52

Impact versus intent matters, right?

Caroline 2:55

And I think here's the issue, because early on she does say, Transsexuals are very passive," which was the term then instead of transgender, and, I think that's their attempt. And, and then, Lecter says he's not actually trans, he thinks he is. I think that was their attempt to be like, "Don't worry, we're not attacking you," but then all the voyeuristic scenes, all the scenes that make you creeped out by this guy have a queer element to them, visually that really sticks with people in a way that that one line doesn't. And especially, you know, my journey with this movie, I didn't have it on VHS, but it was on TV a lot. So I watched it out of order. I did not watch it all the way through. It was probably several times of watching it before I even saw that conversation take place, 'cause it's so early. And I just wanted, a few stats out there, especially because asshole idiots like Joe Rogan are out there saying, quote, Do you know who's killed more people than ICE this year? Trans shooters. Do you know the majority of these high school shootings have been transgender people?" That is blatantly false. 18 deaths in ICE detention have been publicized this year, so I just wonder how many have actually happened. And two deaths by trans shooters this year, including killing themselves. So trans shooter has killed one person other than themselves so far this

Anne 4:11

And the average person listening to Joe Rogan is not going to be checking his stats, right?

Caroline 4:14

No, and they should have checked it live, like what the hell? I, I mean, Joe Rogan is such a piece of sh- I have to say. just a walking red flag. But, cis males perpetrate 98% of mass shootings, females 2%, transgender people less than 1%. and they are far more likely to be the victim. the rate of being a victim of any sort of violent act is 86.2 victimizations per 1,000 people compared to 21.7 cisgender people. So I just really wanted to say we are not excusing, trying to get around acknowledging the harm that this movie has done to that community in particular. Wanted to make sure we set that up front before we dive

Anne 4:53

Yeah.

Caroline 4:54

the other aspects of

Anne 4:55

seen the criticism that that kind of, I guess, backpedaling attempt to explain away makes it sort of worse in a way because it shows that they knew it was problematic to some extent. Um, And I think it goes back to the danger of a single story, which I posted and we talked about in our Mexican Gothic episode. if there were, like, tons of stories out there about trans people and one of them happens to be a serial killer, like it is for white men, right, it's not as big a deal. But if there are only stories where trans people are portrayed as either deviants or jokes, that's obviously a problem. I found this quote. Okay, it was from Juan Botas, who was one of the inspirations for Philadelphia, which Jonathan Demme went on to direct after Silence of the Lambs, and he said, You can't imagine what it's like to be a 12-year-old gay kid, and you go to the movies all the time, and whenever you see a gay character, they're either a ridiculous comic relief caricature or a demented killer. It's very hard growing up gay and being exposed to all those stereotypes." It just goes back to who's centered in stories and how that creates stereotypes that can be very dangerous, as you said, in terms of the stats about how people are, harmed. Levine, who plays Buffalo Bill, says that he never intended to play the character as trans. and this is a quote, I think he was just a fucked up heterosexual man. That's what I was doing. Over time, and having gotten aware and worked with trans folks and understanding a bit more about the culture and the reality of the meaning of gender, it's unfortunate that this film vilified that, and it's fucking wrong, and you can quote me on that." So I appreciate his willingness to like, "Yeah, this was bad."

Caroline 6:23

I wouldn't put it past people who haven't dealt with an issue to be like, a disclaimer, so I dealt with it." I don't even know if I consider it backpedaling as much as ignorance,

Anne 6:32

but that doesn't mean the impact wasn't real. So I don't think it deserves a pass, as you said,

Caroline 6:36

Mm-mm.

Anne 6:36

I don't think it deserves to be canceled either. It needs to be acknowledged and reckoned with.

Caroline 6:41

Yep.

Anne 6:42

So here's what this movie is about. Jonathan Demme's 1991 psychological horror masterpiece, Silence of the Lambs, intertwines the hunt for an active serial killer with a young FBI agent-in-training's fight for her place in a man's world of crime scene investigation and behavioral psychology, all while overcoming her past trauma.

Caroline 7:00

exhilarating

Anne 7:03

Clarice to attempt to interview the incarcerated Hannibal Lecter, a so-called monster who cannibalized his victims, she doesn't realize that he has inside information on Buffalo Bill, an active serial killer who has kidnapped, murdered, and mysteriously skinned five young women. But Lecter doesn't give up what he knows easily, insisting that Starling share information about herself with him. When Catherine Martin, a senator's daughter, is taken by Buffalo Bill and the clock is ticking on saving her, Lecter negotiates for a transfer from his underground cell and the loathsome Dr. Chilton, and he pulls off a brutal and inventive escape. Confident that Lecter won't come after her, which I'm not quite sure why she feels that way, Clarice heads to the hometown of Buffalo Bill's first victim, Frederica Bimmel, and realizes that Buffalo Bill is sewing a suit of women. Her investigation leads her to the home of what she thinks is Frederica's former employer but is actually where Buffalo Bill is holding Catherine in a pit deep in a basement of horrors. Alone with no backup and Catherine in peril, Clarice chases Bill, who we now know is Jame Gumb, through his labyrinth of a basement, but he turns off the lights and follows her in the darkness using night vision goggles. It is only the cock of his gun as he aims to shoot that leads her to instinctively turn around and unload her own weapon into the darkness, killing him and saving Catherine. When Clarice graduates and becomes officially an FBI agent, Lecter, still on the loose, calls her to let her know he's about to have an old friend for dinner. Mic drop, end of movie. So Caroline, what adjective would you use to describe this? Yeah.

Caroline 8:28

really Tense.

Anne 8:29

Tense. That was my adjective, tense.

Caroline 8:31

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Anne 8:31

the pacing, the menacing quality, it's perfect. I guess for my family, as close to as iconic as Jaws, and Star Wars. my husband and I have definitely joked, "It rubs lotion on its skin," when we put sun cream on the kids. And I remember like- Wanting to be her. I used to pretend I was Clarice when I was trail running and, you know, training for cross country because I ran a- alone, like, a lot in the woods near my house, where someone actually buried a body, which I think I've mentioned in the past.

Caroline 8:58

Mm-hmm.

Anne 8:59

I wish I could go back and rewatch it when the plot points would be twists for me because there are so many great twists. This is l- like Jaws, another movie I saw very young. so young, I remember being confused by what Miggs flicked at her and not knowing what I smell your C word, and I'm sorry, I'm a prude, I still, I can't say it. so I know we had this on VHS, and have I ever told you how my sister and I used to watch, movies we weren't allowed to watch?

Caroline 9:22

mean how you got away with it?

Anne 9:23

Yeah. like, a 15...

Caroline 9:24

do people whose parents are home do that?

Anne 9:27

Yeah. Well, there was about a 15, 20-minute window between when my mom got home from work and our b- school bus dropped us off. And so we would take turns. One of us would watch the driveway, and the other would watch the bad movie in, like, 15-minute increments. I'm pretty sure that's how we watched Silence of the Lambs because, not knowing what Miggs did, I must have been pretty young.

Caroline 9:47

Yeah.

Anne 9:47

Well, let's talk about Jonathan Demme a little bit and the creators of this. he's most famous for this, but also Philadelphia, and as we said, he got a lot of backlash at the time more for the portrayal of a gay man, which now we're looking at more as how it's harmed the trans community. Now, Thomas Harris is the writer, and you know how like often people say the book is better than the movie. I think this is one of those rare cases where they're probably equal.

Caroline 10:10

Mm.

Anne 10:11

Have you read it?

Caroline 10:11

No.

Anne 10:12

So they're... I think the movie's the movie's better, but the book is pretty damn good. like I've, I've read it three times because I think I read it like, I don't know, in high school or college, and then when I was studying abroad in France, I picked it up in French because I was like trying to learn French, so I would read books I'd already read, translate it, and then just now I listened to the audiobook, and I was still like edge of my seat at certain scenes in the audiobook. I think the scene that got me the most is when Catherine Martin realizes who has her. It's not just that she's in this situation, but she realizes this is Buffalo Bill. So we get her inner monologue, and it's was really like, "Oh, shit," right? One thing about the audiobook at one point, the narrator said Mr. Crawfish instead of Crawford. And I, like, rewound it. I was like, "Did he just say Crawfish?" And he did, and they didn't, take it out, so that made me laugh. there are some minor differences. Like, obviously there's more to it, but the movie's, so faithful. Like, direct snippets of dialogue word for word, and it, it basically just cuts investigation. Like,, For example, finding that storage facility was much more drawn out, and it also touches on the fact that she's... It doesn't touch on it, it focuses on her pressure of juggling her studies with, her extra project for Jack Crawford. Like, he's, not helping her out. She still has to, like, go to class, and she's kind of calling people, during her lunch breaks, and she's really struggling to keep up, and so that was kind of an interesting difference in it. Um, now Thomas Harris says never made anything up. everything he's put into these books has happened to some extent. Like Margaret Atwood says something similar about the crimes committed against women in The Handmaid's Tale. It's all happened somewhere at some time in history, and he was a journalist, and he went down to this prison, think it was in Mexico, and he talked to this guy he thought was the- prison psychiatrist and he was like so sophisticated and people were going to see him for medical advice and then he realized after that he was actually in prison for murder and he was a psychologist, but he was in prison for murder and, he talks about that story in the, introduction to Silence of the Lambs. also written Red Dragon and the bad guy, Francis Dolarhyde, in that is so scary with a horribly, horrifically abusive mother, so really delves more into what makes a monster. We'll be talking about all that mother stuff next episode in Mindhunter. now, one thing that we frequently discuss is, is it horror? What do you think? Is Silence of the Lambs horror? When I asked you about Jurassic Park, you said no. What about Silence of the Lambs?

Caroline 12:32

Yeah, I think it's more horror. I mean, it's a psychological thriller,

Anne 12:36

Yeah.

Caroline 12:36

if we wanna be black and white about it, but I think it's closer to horror.

Anne 12:40

I think it's like half and half

Caroline 12:42

Yeah.

Anne 12:42

down the middle, you know, because it's not just like a detective procedural, I did see this guy, and I thought this was a really interesting take on what's horror. His handle is Rock7. He's on Threads. And he said for him to define something as horror, it comes down to whether the protagonist is primarily the hunter or prey. So for example, in, Nightmare on Elm Street, Nancy sets traps for Freddy, but she's primarily the prey, therefore horror. Clarice is primarily the hunter of Buffalo Bill, even if it switches in the last 10 minutes, thriller. Chief Brody's role is to hunt the shark, even if the tables turn, thriller. But by this rationale, Jurassic Park, they are never the hunters, they are the hunted, horror, right?

Caroline 13:21

Mm.

Anne 13:21

I mean, with this, there's not really jump scares. The blood and... there's blood and gore, but I, I think it's reasonably minimal.

Caroline 13:28

Totally minimal.

Anne 13:29

I mean, there's, there's stuff, but I guess for me, when I define horror, I ask does it scare me or create a sense of dread? is that the goal, to create the sense of dread? And I think with Jurassic Park, dread is not the goal, right? Thrills is the goal. And I think with this though, dread is the goal. We are supposed to feel scared

Caroline 13:47

Yeah, and I think like in "Jaws," and as we talked about last week with what we don't know being effective, like I really love in the beginning when he's talking about how he massacred that nurse, and he shows her the picture, and we don't see the picture, we just see her expression looking at the picture. I love that.

Anne 14:07

Yeah, the balance between what is left to the imagination and what is shown that make those moments of violence so much more earned. Chilton describing what he did to the nurse it's all exposition. Like he says, "The doctors managed to reset her jaw, more or less, saved one of her eyes. His pulse never got above 85, even when he ate her tongue." And then there's that red light on her face. Yeah.

Caroline 14:30

Mm-hmm.

Anne 14:30

There's a few other examples of that, it feels very Spielbergian to me in terms of Jaws, like, a way to avoid showing. the elevator numbers ticking down

Caroline 14:39

Mm-hmm.

Anne 14:40

shows his movement. it uses sound a lot. Like we don't see him punching Catherine Martin, but we we hear like the crunch of the punch, and we hear her screams. And when he beats that guard with the baton, like we see Lecter,

Caroline 14:52

Mm-hmm.

Anne 14:54

down, we see the blood splattering on him, but we don't see what it's doing to the victim, Pembry. And I think the absolute best part is the final scene. Like, because ap- apparently, originally, the plan was to have Chilton like, chained up at a table or something, and him being like, "I'm having an old friend for dinner." And we would see Chilton in the background, like ready to be eaten. But showing him casually following him into a crowd, leaving us to, yeah, infer what's going to happen. It's so ominous. so yeah, deeply disturbing without using jump scares and gore.

Caroline 15:25

Yeah,

Anne 15:26

some fun facts. Lecter was originally going to wear like an Orange Is The New Black kind of orange jumpsuit, but he was the one who suggested white because he thought it was more clinical and unsettling, and he was a f- sorry, not Lecter who, it was Anthony Hopkins who suggested wearing white because he was afraid of dentists.

Caroline 15:44

issue. She,

Anne 15:45

What?

Caroline 15:47

was so freaked out by this rule.

Anne 15:49

Well, Jodie Foster was scared of him. She said she, like, never talked to him, outside of their scenes because she found him too scary.

Caroline 15:56

Anyway, continue. Sorry.

Anne 15:57

no, that's okay. there was a moth wrangler on set to, I don't know, handle the moths you don't see that in every movie. Uh, it was almost directed by Gene Hackman, and some other people that were up for the roles were like Michelle Pfeiffer, Laura Dern, and Sean Connery as Lecter.

Caroline 16:10

Wait, it dir-directed by Gene Hackman?

Anne 16:13

And then I guess his daughter talked him out of it because it was too dark, and he was like, "Yeah, maybe I don't wanna be associated with that."

Caroline 16:18

Is he a director? I didn't know that.

Anne 16:20

I guess. He must be.

Caroline 16:21

Huh.

Anne 16:21

But, but can you imagine Sean Connery as Lecter?

Caroline 16:24

No.

Anne 16:24

No. It'd be so weird. But I could imagine Laura Dern or Michelle Pfeiffer. I think they both could have done

Caroline 16:29

Yeah. Michelle Pfeiffer is, like, too beautiful. I'm glad...

Anne 16:33

it. She's...

Caroline 16:34

beautiful, but, I'm glad that it's someone closer to normal looking.

Anne 16:37

true. She's, like, ethereal,

Caroline 16:39

she...

Anne 16:39

Pfeiffer.

Caroline 16:39

every time I see her I'm like, "She's the most beautiful woman that ever existed."

Anne 16:43

I recently saw her in the horror-ish movie, Mother, and she's pretty old by then, and she's still so fucking gorgeous.

Caroline 16:51

She's so beautiful.

Anne 16:53

But she doesn't look, plastic surgery-ed, and then maybe she is and it's just a really good job. But, like, she looks like she's actually aging normally and is still just gorgeous.

Caroline 17:01

beautiful, and I don't mean that she couldn't handle the acting. She totally could. I would just be distracted by

Anne 17:06

Yeah. Well, it grossed, 272.7 million worldwide on a 19 million budget, so very financially successful. And although 43 films have been nominated for the Big Five, Silence of the Lambs is only one of three to win Director, Screenplay, Actor, Actress, and Best Picture. The other ones are It Happened One Night and One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. So that's really a small number that have managed to do that. both Jodie Foster and Scott Glenn met up with real FBI agents to figure out what it was like to be in the Behavioral Science Unit. So John Douglas consulted, and Janna Monroe. A little bit about the context and setting. Early '90s. We see a photo of George Bush Senior in the background, which is obviously a time of very blatant homophobia. The AIDS crisis is happening, and also for women, which is a major focus of this, would've had an even tougher time making it in a a man's world, In terms of the place, Baltimore, which we talked about last week with Cask of Amontillado, so connection there, ma- one of the... And UVA. Quan-

Caroline 18:07

connection, yeah.

Anne 18:08

Yeah, not a charm school. And Quantico, which we will see a lot of in our, Mindhunter episode. Everything's kind of gray or night. Like, very desolate depiction of these places, and, like, the Rust Belt settings as well.

Caroline 18:21

the washed outness reminded me of, My So-Called Life," it's kinda that washed out '90s approach where everything is brown.

Anne 18:28

okay. Very washed out, yeah. Yeah, particularly, where she catches him. Well, there's some real-life serial killers that the characters are based on. Bundy, fake broken arm trick to appear less threatening,

Caroline 18:39

Mm-hmm.

Anne 18:40

who has ruined helping people for me, this movie, and Bundy. I would never help someone with a broken arm now. Would you?

Caroline 18:45

Mm-mm. No, I mean, not without my mace.

Anne 18:49

Yeah. I mean, I'd like to say, like, in a crowd, but Bundy got people in a crowd, right?

Caroline 18:53

Two in one day.

Anne 18:53

Two in one day. killed his grandparents. like Ed Kemper, so I think they refer to Buffalo Bill killing his grandparents, which is Ed Kemper's, MO or early days, similar to Gary Heidnik, who had a basement of hell with a pit where he kept women. And the main comparison or source of inspiration is Ed Gein, who had the house known for grisly things like human skin lampshades. so he was my deep dive of this week. His mother, like that horrific, abrasive, abusive mother, very Margaret White, and, you know, I think similar to what we'll discuss about with Ed Kemper next time.

Caroline 19:30

Mm-hmm. For

Anne 19:33

Massacre, which are both firmly considered horror, if we're considering inspiration as part of our is this horror, is it a thriller question. And Lecter isn't based on Jeffrey Dahmer, but Dahmer was arrested a few months after this came out. So, you know, the fact that a real-life cannibal was caught roughly around the time of this movie probably worked together to keep it in the public eye.

Caroline 19:56

that he was gay I'm sure also didn't help

Anne 19:59

Would not have

Caroline 20:00

against LGBTQ, yeah.

Anne 20:02

remember that we don't assume that every white man is a serial killer because Ted Bundy was, right?

Caroline 20:09

Mm. Sorry.

Anne 20:11

you? Okay.

Caroline 20:13

I mean, I, you know, that's sort of like when we say yes, all men, it's because y- we can't tell. The, the numbers are great enough.

Anne 20:20

Right. Okay, some other aesthetic features, the pacing, the tone, the tension, it's a very talky movie, right? Like there's a lot of just dialogue, it works though, right?

Caroline 20:30

Remember in the '90s when everything was really talky, like West Wing?

Anne 20:34

West Wing was very talky. I can't handle West Wing now. I tried to rewatch it, and I was just way too cynical. I was like, I, I can't believe that the people in these positions are flawed but good people who have their heart in the right place and are willing to compromise. Like I just can't believe it anymore.

Caroline 20:51

No, no.

Anne 20:52

Maybe it was never true, but like certainly not now.

Caroline 20:55

Mm-hmm.

Anne 20:55

I love the cuts. There's certain cuts where it's like discussion and then cut to action that are so effective. one of my favorite moments is when the bug, the entomologists are discussing the death's head moth, and one of them says, Somebody loves him." And then it's like this cut to Buffalo Bill's moth-filled basement with Catherine's screams like increasing in volume as we move through the space and we get our first sight of that pit. So scary. another good cut is when the guard is calmly moving Lecter's drawings to put down his food, and then it cuts to Lecter handcuffing him. And then the cut of the body falling out of the elevator hatch. that's so tense 'cause we're like, Is he actually like alive?" And we think that's Lecter. He falls out, and then it cuts to the ambulance where he's getting up and pulling off his face. Like absolute chills in that moment.

Caroline 21:43

And then, and then the phone dropping,

Anne 21:45

Yes, that's a good one. Yeah,

Caroline 21:47

Yeah. The whole sequence is so great. Did you notice Chris Isaak? is one of

Anne 21:53

I didn't notice him. But yeah, I heard that he's like there. You know

Caroline 21:57

I was like,

Anne 21:59

SWAT team guys is the chief of police in Super Troopers.

Caroline 22:03

Oh, I didn't recognize him, but I did

Anne 22:05

I... Oh,

Caroline 22:06

The dance teacher in that episode when Joey pretends he can dance of Friends, who's also a principal briefly on Dawson's Creek. He was a news reporter in the beginning.

Anne 22:15

no way.

Caroline 22:15

voice immediately. I was like, "Oh, that's Principal what's-his-face from Dawson's Creek."

Anne 22:20

No, I definitely didn't notice that. Yeah, some very familiar faces in the background. my favorite cut though, and they do this in Speed they think they're at the bomber's house, right? Or are they... And they...

Caroline 22:30

right.

Anne 22:30

Actually, I'm not explaining that well. But anyway, it's a similar scene in Speed, but, Clarice thinks she's just at Mrs. Litman's house, and we think the SWAT team is going to Jame Gumb's house, and then you see the doorbell ringing. You think it's the SWAT team at the door, and then she answers, and it's just like, "Ah, shit."

Caroline 22:45

Yep.

Anne 22:46

some other aesthetic features are the circular shots, the her point of view shots. There's a lot of like Clarice entering a space, and then it kind of pans around. Like we see that in, the, you know, the creepy corridor down to Lecter's cell or Frederica's bedroom. We get like her point of view

Caroline 23:00

it's interesting what they do with the camera too, because there's a lot of, like, people talking to each other, but at the camera.

Anne 23:06

Close-ups. Yeah. That intense Silence of the Lambs conversation where she reveals that, the framing just gets closer and closer and closer to him the more... I'm getting closer to the microphone, so I hope I'm not getting too loud.

Caroline 23:18

Mm.

Anne 23:19

Um, the more intense the conversation gets, like he's like boring into her brain, and like the direct eye contact with him, yeah, it's very intense. It's like you almost feel like it, what it would feel like to have Hannibal Lecter's blue eyes staring into your soul and making insightful judgments about you. And there's one scene where his reflection like overlays hers in the glass when they talk. So it's not a jump scare, but it's very unsettling. Like, the implication is he is in her head, as their faces kind of match up.

Caroline 23:47

Mm-hmm.

Anne 23:48

There's also some religious symbolism, he draws her as Jesus holding the lamb. Is she the sacrifice? and the guard is obviously Pembry, I guess, I'm not sure which one, is strung up like a butterfly, but it also looks very crucifixion-like. And the moment that he brushes her hand when she hands him the drawings is very Michelangelo, like Creation of Adam. Which was a dumb move, don't you think? Why did she do that?

Caroline 24:11

know. There's also the tattoo that, Buffalo Bill has that looks like it's, either related to Jesus on the cross or to represent, the rib Eve was made from,

Anne 24:22

Is there like dripping blood in it?

Caroline 24:24

Yeah, it's like a,

Anne 24:25

Yeah.

Caroline 24:25

a sideways V with blood dripping

Anne 24:27

Hmm. Yeah, so definitely some religious symbolism in there. And obviously the butterfly symbolism, the moth imagery, foreshadowing this idea of transformation. did you know, notice that Frederica Bimmel's sewing room has butterflies on yellow wallpaper? I think it was yellow.

Caroline 24:42

yes, there's yellow wallpaper. Also, I just made a note. When we shit on wallpaper, that is what we're talking The

Anne 24:49

Absolutely.

Caroline 24:51

It

Anne 24:51

That was awful wallpaper.

Caroline 24:53

awful.

Anne 24:53

busy and faded and, terrible wallpaper. I

Caroline 24:57

Oof.

Anne 24:58

was intentional, that yellow wallpaper, if it was just a house with a lot of shitty wallpaper. But the butterflies I'm sure.

Caroline 25:03

wallpaper. Yeah,

Anne 25:05

Oh, one other thing, the score. It's composed by Howard Shore. I think it's perfect. Like it's slow and broody and low. And, you know, I think we first hear it when she's running through the woods and it just contributes to that sense of unease and I'm not like a music theorist, so I can't pinpoint exactly what it is about the music that works so well for me, but it's just, it's great. Well, let's go a little deeper into character. I guess Hannibal Lecter, who's only on screen for 16 minutes. So not unlike the shark in Jaws or the dinosaurs in Jurassic Park, got a disproportionate impact on the movie to his time on screen. In the book, he's a six-fingered man like Count Rugen in The Princess Bride.

Caroline 25:42

Really?

Anne 25:45

Like he uses it as like distraction. Like he knows people will look at the six-fingered hand so he can be kind of like doing something with the other one. you think Hannibal Lecter became a cannibal because his name rhymes with cannibal? It's a little too on the nose criticism.

Caroline 26:00

Yeah. I don't think that's why.

Anne 26:03

Do you think like early on when he was like, "I'm having urges to do something bad," and he was like, It's too good. My fate is sealed. this has got to be my method." Hannibal the Strangler doesn't sound as good, right?

Caroline 26:13

No, it doesn't.

Anne 26:15

Got to be a cannibal. Another cut with him is when Crawford is warning her, genuinely giving her advice, like, "Don't tell him anything personal. You don't want Lecter inside your head." And then you get to Chilton like, reveling in the fact that he like owns Lecter. He's a monster, a pure psycho. So rare to capture one alive.

Caroline 26:32

he's such a sleazeball.

Anne 26:33

Oh yeah. He's loathsome. Let's get to him in a little bit. But And I guess what makes Lecter so effective is the subversion of expectations of a murdering psychopath. we expect a cannibalistic serial killer to be more like Megs, right? But he's like calm and sophisticated. He draws the Duomo and listens to classical music. He's polite. Like he offers her a towel. Do you think Clarice was right to assume he would think it's too rude to go after her?

Caroline 27:00

I don't think rude, but I mean, I think it's like he likes her, so he wouldn't I think he really focuses on people he doesn't like, kind of like Dexter you

Anne 27:09

Yeah. People who deserve it. Pembry didn't deserve it.

Caroline 27:12

deserve it. Doesn't mean

Anne 27:14

Okay, I'm not victim-blaming.

Caroline 27:15

do.

Anne 27:15

Chilton, I mean, like Sergeant Pembry treated him with respect. Like he moved his paintings, but he still like absolutely went to town on him. if Clarice's psychology was more tedious, would she be on the menu?

Caroline 27:26

No, because it's also, like, at that moment, he's in his way. I guess

Anne 27:30

Yeah.

Caroline 27:30

two categories of the victims. the joy victims, which come

Anne 27:34

Chilton.

Caroline 27:35

Chilton, and then there's, like, the necessity victims, which is like, "You stand between me and freedom." So I do think that if

Anne 27:41

Like the poor paramedics.

Caroline 27:42

Yeah, the paramedics. Oh my God. The, the, I feel the worst for them. not that I'm victim-blaming, but like,

Anne 27:47

can victim blame Chilton.

Caroline 27:48

yeah. if the, if she stood between him and freedom, I'm sure he wouldn't think twice about it, actually.

Anne 27:53

Yeah.

Caroline 27:53

don't think he'd go after her.

Anne 27:55

Yeah. Well, he's got a bit of teacher in him, you know? He's prompting, not spoon-feeding the answers. Teachable moment. I know you hate that expression, right?

Caroline 28:03

Yes.

Anne 28:04

Yeah,

Caroline 28:05

for me because who I heard it

Anne 28:08

His discussion of simplicity. He's quoting Marcus Aurelius, so I guess this is kind of his version of Occam's razor or that quote we keep bringing up about when you hear hooves, think horses, not zebras. I told you I looked that up. It comes from like medical terminology, right?

Caroline 28:19

what? Which did you look up?

Anne 28:21

The zebras. Zebras, Australia. Yeah, yeah.

Caroline 28:24

gonna make fun of you. Oh,

Anne 28:28

Yeah, like if diagnosing, like if you have this series of symptoms, think horses, not zebras because like what is the most likely outcome?

Caroline 28:36

Mm-hmm.

Anne 28:36

mean, he's darkly funny. Like people will say, "We're in love," and when he's talking about Benjamin Raspail, he says, "His therapy was going nowhere. He was a garden variety, manic depressive, tedious."

Caroline 28:46

Mm-hmm.

Anne 28:48

the sort of thing Miggs would say," and he comments, "Not anymore." I love that moment. And if anyone needs a glass wall, it's Miggs. gross Miggs Obviously he's insightful, skewering her emotionally, like honing in on those insecurities about her accent, the fact that maybe she's being used for her femininity, her objectification, her cheap shoes, that she looks like a rube, and she's one generation away from poor white trash. And then he just dismisses her, like, "Fly away." And she's really skilled at brushing it off.

Caroline 29:18

feel like I would expect him to attack me and, and be primed to ignore it.

Anne 29:22

Do you think it's because Miggs does what he does that makes Lecter decide to help her? Like, would Lecter have helped her if Miggs hadn't been so vile?

Caroline 29:32

Yes, I think he would've. I honestly, I think it was more about being able to engage intellectually with someone than helping her. I don't actually think helping her was anything he was that interested in.

Anne 29:43

You're just bored.

Caroline 29:43

I felt like he had to dangle something in front of her in order to keep the interplay going, but I think it was

Anne 29:49

Yeah.

Caroline 29:49

like, just having some mental exercise happening for him was what he was after

Anne 29:54

I, I often ask my students, when we're analyzing a plot, or a character, what is the character's lowest and highest moment, and how do they change? And I think that moment with Miggs and having just been dismissed and psychoanalyzed by Lecter, and she's walking away, like, feeling like a failure, that's like her lowest moment. or one of them. And then he helps, I guess he just decides she's a game worth playing at that point.

Caroline 30:16

Yeah, and I think he decides she's at her vu- most vulnerable and she'll take the bait.

Anne 30:21

he's obviously a s- a sociopath, but he does seem pained by her story of being orphaned. he closes his eyes like, Oh, that was so tough." What do you think? Do you think he actually feels bad for her, or...

Caroline 30:31

I think it's an

Anne 30:34

And of course he's absolutely ferocious and I guess animalistic. Like, he can control his pulse. They talk about that, this state of semi-hibernation, which is also foreshadowing for the ambulance- Scene.

Caroline 30:45

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Anne 30:46

Hopkins said he avoided blinking when he was being Lecter because reptiles only blink when they want to, and they do it consciously. And that links into our H.H. Holmes episode, where that detective compared him to a chameleon.

Caroline 30:58

that would be so hard, 'cause I wear contacts and

Anne 31:02

Yeah.

Caroline 31:02

like, fall out of my eye.

Anne 31:04

And it's also harder not to blink when you're focused on not blinking. the second you're like, "Don't cough," you feel like you have to... Like, w- every time we start this recording, I feel like I have to cough when I didn't have to cough for, like, the previous two weeks, so.

Caroline 31:16

Mm-hmm.

Anne 31:17

and it... Yeah, his senses are heightened. Like, he can smell what the average person can't, like her skin cream. Not her, you know.

Caroline 31:24

That's a criticism. Like, call bullshit. I call bullshit on being able to do that through a glass wall.

Anne 31:30

Well, there's little holes in it.

Caroline 31:31

she normally has but didn't even put on that day? I

Anne 31:34

Mm.

Caroline 31:35

think so.

Anne 31:35

Okay. do you talk someone into swallowing their tongue?

Caroline 31:38

I think you just bully them relentlessly, and if they are mentally incapacitated in some way, which Megs clearly is, and you are a master of manipulation, you could probably get people to do anything.

Anne 31:52

well, we know

Caroline 31:52

Yeah.

Anne 31:53

West of

Caroline 31:53

Sorry

Anne 31:54

where we talked about false confessions, and I'm not saying that Miggs is innocent necessarily, but that often, a lot of the people who end up on death row, perhaps have a lower IQ. So maybe they are someone who can be easily manipulated. Is, is that right? Like, I feel like there are stats about that,

Caroline 32:07

Yeah, just age or low socioeconomic status, they can be easily taken advantage of, all vulnerable populations.

Anne 32:16

What he says to Catherine Martin's mother about breastfeeding and where she'll feel it when Catherine is on the slab, that's monstrous.

Caroline 32:22

It is.

Anne 32:22

And obviously he's monstrous in his violence as well, like when he attacks those guards, that brutality as he bites and beats him, like, it's just pretty awful. let's talk about Clarice. Gosh, she's pretty. Maybe not Michelle Pfeiffer pretty, but like

Caroline 32:36

Nobody

Anne 32:37

And now I'm objectifying her.

Caroline 32:39

she is. She

Anne 32:40

She has I don't think I would've noticed this if it weren't for the close-ups, but she has the most delicate nose.

Caroline 32:45

Beautiful skin too.

Anne 32:47

you sound like Buffalo Bill there

Caroline 32:49

Guilty, I guess

Anne 32:50

Little bit, little bit.

Caroline 32:53

What do you think of my nose? 'Cause in elementary school, one kid told me I had a huge nose, and I've been self-conscious of it ever since.

Anne 32:59

I think your nose is fine. I've never noticed your nose being big. How about my nose?

Caroline 33:03

No, everything about you is perfect. It's annoying.

Anne 33:06

Thank you. I think your nose is beautiful. Maybe not as delicate as Jodie Foster's, but whose is?

Caroline 33:11

I wouldn't say my nose is delicate, but it's also not big. It's not button.

Anne 33:15

that kid. objectifying Jodie Foster.

Caroline 33:18

Fuck.

Anne 33:19

Would you have name-dropped him

Caroline 33:20

Yes.

Anne 33:21

him on our podcast? Well, speaking of objectifying Jodie Foster. the most watched woman. From that very first scene when we meet her, there's that feeling like she's being watched when she's running through the obstacle course. So that feeling of being a woman in a male-dominated space, which I don't really understand what that feels like because I'm a teacher, and, like, the vast majority of us are women. like, in our staff room, we have, I think, nine women and one man, so like, I feel bad for him.

Caroline 33:45

Mm-hmm.

Anne 33:46

You know, the camera really lingers on men's eyes lingering on her.

Caroline 33:51

Yep

Anne 33:51

we've got Miggs, Chilton, the guy at the airport, doing, like, a full about-face to check her out, her fellow trainees, those pervy super troopers, and then, culminating under that creepy green night vision gaze of Buffalo Bill. What did you think Her height, she's, like, 5'3", right? She's pretty tiny. Is

Caroline 34:07

Yeah, 5'3".

Anne 34:08

How, how tall are you?

Caroline 34:09

5'2".

Anne 34:10

5'2". Okay. Shorter than Jodie Foster. What did you think of the two times she's asked on a date in a professional setting?

Caroline 34:17

Chilton, it was clearly inappropriate and gross. with the other guy, it seemed like they had a relationship already, The bug guy. She seemed to

Anne 34:25

Yeah.

Caroline 34:26

like, play along, you know? so for that one, I felt more like it was a friendly interplay that they had.

Anne 34:32

Yeah. Like she deflects both of them, but he's kind of like cute because he's so awkward about it.

Caroline 34:37

Yeah,

Anne 34:37

in the book she ends up getting together with the entomologist.

Caroline 34:40

Oh, she d- I mean, it seemed to me like she would've entertained it. it didn't seem like she was put off at all.

Anne 34:45

and when, when Chilton does it, it's slimy ass. But in the book it's like there's the slightest bit of chemistry with one of the entomologists, and then at the end she's like invited to his house, and it kinda ends with them in bed together, And not in like a sexual way, like they're like surrounded by dogs, like in a, I think it's interesting that the objectification is so blatant, yet not acknowledged. there's never a moment where she like talks to Ardelia where they're like, Man, it really sucks how all these guys check us out all the time and how often we get ogled." She just deals with it.

Caroline 35:15

have you ever been objectified at work?

Anne 35:17

as a waitress? Yeah. I don't feel like I've been objectified at work as a teacher.

Caroline 35:22

It's happened to me in a corporate setting, and I did not, I never mentioned it. I think you anticipate it to some extent. Not that it's acceptable or allowed,

Anne 35:31

You just get on with it.

Caroline 35:32

yeah, you, you expect it, and it's just something you have to deal with, and it sucks.

Anne 35:36

It does suck.

Caroline 35:37

When I even feel like in a corporate setting, I know that in my 20s I would've been nervous to mention it to another woman because I wouldn't have wanted to seem like I was bragging,

Anne 35:47

Okay.

Caroline 35:47

know? I don't know. I feel like you just don't. I would m- I would sooner have told you, not at work, a non-work person.

Anne 35:54

Well, it is very jarring to think you're, being professional, and we talked about this in the Jurassic Park episode,

Caroline 35:59

Mm-hmm.

Anne 36:00

how that requires the massaging of male egos.

Caroline 36:04

Mm-hmm.

Anne 36:05

if they do come onto you and you do reject it, and like with Chilton, the second she makes it clear that she's sexually unavailable to him, he goes so cold. absolutely dismisses her, and I feel like we've all probably been there at one point or another, where a man has just been like, "Well, now you are worthless, and I'm not gonna give you a second of my time." And make that very clear, and that's a very bad feeling. You know, so she has to kind of, massage the egos and cajole all those troopers to leave.

Caroline 36:32

When they're in West Virginia and, the FBI guy, what's his name? Is like, The sex crime has things I'd like to discuss in private" with the West Virginia police guy. Um, it's so infuriating and it reminds me of like I have a relative, I was in Hungary, and I had a relative there who was trying to lecture me about trans people in the bathrooms, speaking of this topic. he was just like, "I'm trying to protect you." And I was like, "Could I decide what's in my best interest protection-wise? 'Cause I

Anne 37:01

Yeah.

Caroline 37:02

don't care about trans people in the bathroom. You I wouldn't want in my bathroom, but like a, a

Anne 37:07

Yeah.

Caroline 37:07

woman I'm not worried about, could you let me be in charge of that? 'Cause I'm telling you actively."

Anne 37:13

I think Crawford doesn't actually believe what he's saying. He's just trying to, like, meet the cops at their level, I love when she calls him on it, Like, it matters."

Caroline 37:25

And he says noted, which is fair.

Anne 37:28

Yeah, so I think he will do better in the future, I hope. Will your Hungarian cousin do better in the future?

Caroline 37:34

No, he actually doesn't speak to anymore,

Anne 37:38

In the book, there was this sentence I wrote down, which we don't get in the movie, but it, it was in this scene. She gave them a smile of the correct dim wattage." And I thought that was so spot on. Like, don't smile too much, don't smile not enough. You have to get the correct wattage of a smile, and I thought that was just something women, you know, have to struggle with all the time.

Caroline 37:58

Yep.

Anne 37:58

but being a woman, she also has an advantage. again, a quote from the book. she is kind of begging to be kept on the case, and she says, The victims are all women, and there aren't any women working this. I can walk in a woman's room and know three times as much about her as a man would know. Send me." And she's right, right? In the movie, she figures out more about Frederica, and She figures out the suit thing, right? and I think, you know, Fe- Frederica's friend talks to her in a more open way than perhaps she would've talked to the male investigators because obviously that was new information getting to Mrs. Lippman's house, right? Maybe she wasn't even interviewed.

Caroline 38:33

Mm-hmm.

Anne 38:33

She's also badass. I was very impressed by her using the jack to lift up the door to the storage unit. I've never even changed a flat tire. I'm such a useless person when it comes to those sort of things. So between, like, the claustrophobia and my fear of being crushed is very strong from Star Wars, A New Hope in the trash compactor. So, like, I would've never been able to squeeze under that without having a heart attack. and Lecter says that her goal is advancement, if we put it in his terms. What does she covet? Ambition. but Jodie Foster describes her character as a young woman saving another young woman, like very simple in that respect, but he's saying it's about more than that. What do you think is her actual goal? I think so,

Caroline 39:09

I think it's both.

Anne 39:10

and to overcome her own trauma, which maybe she doesn't realize that as her goal,

Caroline 39:14

Right, like I think that she has ambition, which is fine for any professional,

Anne 39:18

Absolutely.

Caroline 39:19

male, female, they, them, whatever. I think that it becomes saving Catherine as her driving force, but it doesn't mean her ambition's just, like, out the window. I do think that a naturally ambitious person had a switch, there's a time limit, and I think that her ambition just would've continued on to the next case if she didn't, wasn't able to achieve it in this one.

Anne 39:40

In the book, she chooses to keep investigating, to go to Frederica Bimmel's town rather than take a test, which means she's gonna fail out and be recycled and have to wait for her next spot at Quantico. So she's actually choosing to set herself back in terms of her bi- ambition in favor of saving Catherine Martin. it's clear that it's about that more than her ambition in the book, so maybe Lecter is underestimating her.

Caroline 40:01

I don't know anything don't people normally have partners when they go on these...

Anne 40:06

she's just, like, in training, and she, she's gone o- she's, like, gone rogue when she goes to Bimmel's, town in the book.

Caroline 40:11

Okay, so all of this is, like, on her dime, and she doesn't necessarily have

Anne 40:16

I think she's like at one point she's told by somebody like, right, hand your gun in, get back to Quantico," and she's kind of like, Okay," and then she goes anyway,

Caroline 40:23

Okay. 'Cause, yeah, I think I would've put that under, unanswered questions. Like, it's not clear to me in each scene that she's in whether she's been directed to do that thing or not

Anne 40:31

She's definitely more on her own in the book, they don't acknowledge that she's juggling at all in the movie. They've cut that out, which is fine, right? You gotta prune things in a movie.

Caroline 40:40

I mean, it's a movie. Yeah.

Anne 40:41

Then so by the end, her arc is complete. She saves Catherine. She didn't watch her six in training, but she did in Buffalo Bill's basement, so it's a very satisfying ending, and no romance, which there is that touch of romance in the book, but I kind of like when there isn't a romance because it's so rare that it's not there on the side, that a woman has, can't just have a story without also having a love interest, so, like that.

Caroline 41:01

Yeah, of speed, I feel like the romance is a little forced even though they have such chemistry. It's like,

Anne 41:06

S- do not talk about do not talk shit about that romance.

Caroline 41:11

it's so brief.

Anne 41:12

Yeah, you

Caroline 41:13

Anyway.

Anne 41:13

they're sexy, two sexy people in a, difficult situation, right?

Caroline 41:16

then. You know? It needs to be love. Just, like, get it on, and then just go on with your life. Anyway.

Anne 41:23

Well, we should probably move on to Buffalo Bill himself. So who do you think is scarier, Jame Gumb or Lecter?

Caroline 41:30

Gum.

Anne 41:30

yeah, he's definitely scarier, I think, you know, and also he's killing women, right? So I think that dance...

Caroline 41:36

deranged and not at all attached to reality. Normally, I think that the wolf in sheep's clothing is scarier. Like, Ted Bundy is my, quote-unquote, favorite serial killer or whatever because he was so convincing. Not that I favor any of these, but, like, the most fascinating to me because of the whole element of, like,

Anne 41:57

Normalcy.

Caroline 41:58

Yeah, even people who... What's her face, who wrote the book Stranger beside?

Anne 42:02

Annual.

Caroline 42:02

Ann Rule. Ann Rule, who was, like, involved in police meetings, and knew him, and knew that the guy's name was Ted, and knew that he drove the golden Beetle, still didn't think it was him. Normally, like, the Lecter type person, but someone who is so unhinged just off the rails, not attached to reality, is scarier to me.

Anne 42:20

And I think his lack of empathy is more, I guess, emphasized in this. like his dance scene, which is problematic for reasons we've already discussed, but like Catherine's screaming and starving and terrified in that pit, and he's like playing dress up. And, we know, I think in that moment, that her mother's attempt to humanize her by saying her name and sharing photos of her as a child is not going to work.

Caroline 42:40

Right, 'cause he's... her

Anne 42:42

Yeah, it... He loves his dog.

Caroline 42:43

and his bugs.

Anne 42:44

So he's not, meeting that cruelty to animals criterion

Caroline 42:48

Hmm.

Anne 42:49

or prerequisite, that many have. I

Caroline 42:51

Yeah.

Anne 42:51

said he wasn't born a criminal, he was made. But we don't actually get much about how he was made. Like, we don't know what abuses he might have suffered. We can kind of infer. But, you know, I guess it just goes back into that what makes a monster. Should we pity him because probably was raised by people who were not good to him? Like at one point he says to her, "You don't know what pain is." And it's like, is that a threat or a recollection of his past? A bit of both. But I think we can assume, life was not good for Jame Gumb.

Caroline 43:19

Yeah, it doesn't

Anne 43:21

never an excuse, an understanding. in Mindhunter we'll talk about this, about it's like, well, could we intervene, right? Can we prevent these conditions that lead to someone like him? So Lecter says, as I think you might have already mentioned this, "I suspect he tried a lot of things."

Caroline 43:35

Mm-hmm.

Anne 43:36

that makes me wonder... And at one point we see Nazi, swastikas, like on a blanket or something. Like did he experiment with trying to fill that void with white supremacy and then move on to what he's doing here? So is this just an extremely damaged man trying to fill a void within him and going about it in all the wrong ways? I do wonder, and I think the book kind of answers this question for me, does he actually wanna be a woman, or is he a sadist that has latched onto this way?

Caroline 44:02

I

Anne 44:04

Like, does he actually just enjoy kidnapping and killing and flying, and the woman's suit is an excuse to do what he does? you know, he seems to enjoy stalking Clarice at the end. He enjoys that fear. really takes his time. And in the book, they talk about how he used to do that every time, the hunt. he'd let them go, he'd turn off the lights, he'd put his lights on, and he'd stalk them, and eventually he'd shoot them, and how much he enjoyed the cocking of the gun. the only reason he stops is because they would hurt themselves. So they might fall and scratch their skin in some way, and then it would mess up his suit. So he doesn't stop because he's not a sadist. He stops because he's got a different goal. gotta love that song, though. Goodbye Horses"?

Caroline 44:40

my

Anne 44:40

So Ted Levine chose it. He switched out some other song. I can't remember what it was, And that's become so iconic

Caroline 44:45

New wave is so fun.

Anne 44:47

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But now it feels creepy. Is that song inherently creepy, or is it creepy because we've seen Jame Gumm dancing to it?

Caroline 44:53

I mean, I think because we've seen him.

Anne 44:56

association now. seeing James Gunn, like, recording himself reminds me of when I saw Titanic, and I recorded myself singing "My Heart Will Go On." Did you ever do anything like that?

Caroline 45:05

actually my friend Ty, who is a listener... hi Ty, I had a Talkboy, like from Home Alone, we recorded a radio show called T-Y-C-A-R, and,

Anne 45:15

We have a

Caroline 45:19

I mean, I have hours and hours of our voices. Not video, I didn't have any, we didn't have any video camera when I was growing up, so I only had the Talkboy. I have them.

Anne 45:30

movie...

Caroline 45:31

I actually had them digitized so I can

Anne 45:33

Oh. Oh my God. We have a family, a, a home video movie of us acting out the Nancy Kerrigan-Tonya Harding thing when we were in middle school. Like,

Caroline 45:43

Wow.

Anne 45:44

my sister was Tonya Harding, my dad was the guy. it's, like, in the woods 'cause we filmed in the w- we didn't have, like, an ice rink. So we filmed him, like, you know, knocking out my friend Nancy Kerrigan's knee like, in the woods. So crazy.

Caroline 45:56

did I tell you about my 10th birthday party before, where

Anne 45:59

I don't

Caroline 46:00

a play called Sisters, and

Anne 46:02

know.

Caroline 46:02

everyone who was invited to my party was sent a script and a part, and then

Anne 46:07

my

Caroline 46:07

we, like, filmed it, so I also had that digitized, where, like, we're, like, five sisters and Some drama about, like,

Anne 46:14

Very little women.

Caroline 46:15

Yeah, it was t- it was so Little

Anne 46:17

I guess there's only four. Yeah. Well, should we talk about Catherine, she's pretty awesome. Badass.

Caroline 46:23

Very badass.

Anne 46:24

In my head canon, she definitely keeps Precious, the dog, even if her cat doesn't like it

Caroline 46:29

she's, clutching Precious on her way out, so yes, I think

Anne 46:33

Yeah. I don't know if I could have actually hurt the dog in her situation, like if it came down to that.

Caroline 46:38

I don't think she would've.

Anne 46:39

In the book,. she's like, "I, I can't actually hurt this dog." But, she has a mattress down there in the book, so she, like, is hiding under the mattress. So he's trying to shoot her, but, like, he doesn't know where h- the dog is and where she is. But he, uh, ultimately has decided he's gonna just lie in wait with his goggles, and then when he has a moment, take the headshot, and that's when Clarice shows up.

Caroline 46:56

Oh, interesting. I have one dog who's a total fucking wuss. if you like pet his ears, he howls. If you like accidentally bump him, he's just like

Anne 47:07

Oh.

Caroline 47:10

Cooper, he just like crazy if you barely touch him. So I'd probably do something like that, like make the dog howl

Anne 47:15

Yeah.

Caroline 47:16

you're not actually hurting them. They just like

Anne 47:17

Yeah.

Caroline 47:18

have a low tolerance for discomfort.

Anne 47:21

My dog recently predicted the future. so he runs and hides in our closet and shakes every time our smoke alarm goes off. And then my son found him hiding and shaking in the closet, and the smoke alarm had not gone off, and then, uh, 30 seconds later it went off. So he knew. because I had... because I was burning something. But, like, he smelled the burning, and so he's associated the burning with the smoke alarm cause I, like, forgot something on the stovetop.

Caroline 47:44

gonna rescue you if there's

Anne 47:46

No, no, he will hide in the closet.

Caroline 47:48

Yeah. Oh, well.

Anne 47:50

it's awesome how she uses what she can to get the upper hand, at least temporarily, over Bill. That probably bought her her life, giving Clarice time to get there. one time I was driving home, you know, I drove back and forth between Baltimore and Providence a lot, sometimes at night, and I was listening to the radio, and "American Girl" came on the radio, and I almost, like, dropped dead from fear because I was like, "If I stop at a gas station, I will be murdered just like Catherine Martin."

Caroline 48:14

I love that scene when she's singing like that. Do, would, do you think you would call your captor mister?

Anne 48:19

I don't know. I don't know what I'd call him. Uh, sir? Dear sir, please release me. Yeah, what, what else would you do? "Hey, you"?

Caroline 48:25

I don't know. I'm I mentioned this in, what was it? Where they were in office and they were calling each other Mr. and Mrs. it's so foreign now. we don't do that

Anne 48:35

Yeah. Yeah, but I definitely grew up calling my friends' parents Mr. and Mrs. We ta- I remember talking about this, but I can't remember

Caroline 48:40

Yeah,

Anne 48:41

the context was. so also her apartment reminds me... Do you remember when, sophomore year I didn't get campus housing, and I had to live, off campus in her apartment? Yes.

Caroline 48:50

like, the friend who visited you the most.

Anne 48:52

Yes. Well, her apartment reminds me of that, like, that brick building, and

Caroline 48:57

Mm-hmm.

Anne 48:57

freaked myself out so much kind of spending so much time alone when everyone else was, like, in dorms. I used to tie hairs over the windowsill so that I would know if someone came in through my window. So...

Caroline 49:07

I

Anne 49:09

Yeah. so yeah, I...

Caroline 49:10

your housing when I was there last fall. I

Anne 49:12

yeah.

Caroline 49:12

picture.

Anne 49:13

Oh. Yeah, the parking lot. you know, I think of, this every time I'm in a parking lot by myself at night because of the way Buffalo Bill gets her.

Caroline 49:20

I'm just never in a parking lot at night anymore.

Anne 49:23

Yeah, I rarely leave my house at night.

Caroline 49:25

Mm-hmm.

Anne 49:26

Recently, I actually, like in the past year, drove past my driveway at night 'cause I was driving home at night. Like, I miss my house. Um,

Caroline 49:33

Mm-hmm

Anne 49:34

I love Kathryn Martin. it's very exciting every time she pops up somewhere, like we saw her in The Act and in- she's in Grey's Anatomy. she pops up in small roles, it's very exciting to me.

Caroline 49:44

Yeah, she's no small role in Grey's Anatomy though, by the way.

Anne 49:47

no. Well, I think she was small around the time I stopped, like...

Caroline 49:50

was small in the first season she was in, but she becomes a bigger...

Anne 49:54

I did not watch all 36 seasons or whatever it is of Grey's Anatomy, so.

Caroline 49:57

I, I am no longer... Christina Yang's departure was the end for me.

Anne 50:01

Yeah. I think I stopped I don't know. Season three? I didn't get that r- get very far. right, what about Jack Crawford? I feel like he's kind of like a dad figure. He's flawed. There's some sexual tension. Do you think there's sexual tension there?

Caroline 50:14

you know, I can't decide. I feel like I was really paying attention to that this time watching it, I feel like I landed on no, it's paternal, but there were definitely moments where I was not sure.

Anne 50:27

In the book, it's clearly paternal because he's nursing his dying wife at home And it's very clear how much he loves her, So like there's no real question, I thought, in the book, but it's questionable in the movie.

Caroline 50:41

I think it to have,

Anne 50:44

But even if he is attracted to her, I mean, like look at her, who wouldn't be? But, he's not seeing her as only an object the way like literally every single other man is, except for maybe Lecter,

Caroline 50:55

entomologist.

Anne 50:56

and the entomologist. Yeah, so mentions seeing her in like a seminar. He sees her brain, so... And he, is willing to do better when she calls him on his moments of sexism.

Caroline 51:08

I was really worried, earlier times watching this that the deal that she gives Lecter, that he was setting her up and she wasn't aware that it wasn't a legit deal. I do feel like every time I watch this, and this hasn't gone away, and this is gonna be under criticisms I think, I don't really understand

Anne 51:25

I

Caroline 51:25

he assigned her this in the first place

Anne 51:28

mean, I think he's trying to throw Lecter. Lecter's been approached by many people with no progression, and maybe he thought, somebody who's a little more guileless. a little more naive, maybe a woman.

Caroline 51:39

Mm-hmm.

Anne 51:41

change Lecter's, um, willingness to cooperate? So I think maybe it's just a shot in the dark, a Project Hail Mary.

Caroline 51:46

Mm-hmm.

Anne 51:48

anything else we wanna say about Dr. Chilton? We've already talked about how he's odious, he's slimy, the way he goes cold on her the second she, rejects him.

Caroline 51:59

garbage, and I am glad that he has a downfall, cause it's

Anne 52:02

Yeah.

Caroline 52:03

when you feel like he's not gonna.

Anne 52:05

I think he's the type of guy that would've really enjoyed the Stanford Prison Experiment.

Caroline 52:08

Or our current administration.

Anne 52:10

Yeah, he'd fit right in there. and he goes on and on about the rules, and yet he's cocky enough to bring a pen in, and how good is that moment when you see Lecter's eyes note the pen?

Caroline 52:20

Mm-hmm.

Anne 52:21

And when la-la-later on he's like patting his jacket and he's like, "Where's my pen?" And you're like, "Ah, he got it." And like we feel this vicarious thrill for this serial killer who's gonna use it, and we shouldn't. Right? We are very much manipulated in that moment.

Caroline 52:34

I don't understand how he got it. He's,

Anne 52:37

Yeah

Caroline 52:38

I mean, I've really... That's under my unanswered questions. I

Anne 52:41

Yeah, it doesn't make sense.

Caroline 52:42

every time.

Anne 52:43

In the book, it's something he's been hanging onto for, like, six months. So he's, managed to get, like, something out of his bed, and at one point somebody left a pen, and he's fashioned something, and he's just been hanging onto it, and then he uses it. yeah, he's, like, put a tube or something in his mouth that the thing fits in, and he's like... I think he's, like, inserting it into his gum or something. He's-- So, like, he's been plotting this moment for months, and months, and months, and months, and months, and waiting patiently.

Caroline 53:09

Very Shawshank.

Anne 53:10

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. So I think it's, more satisfying in the movie but more dubious.

Caroline 53:15

Yeah.

Anne 53:16

I think it's such a crazy end that having an old friend for dinner where we are all kind of like, "Get him," right?

Caroline 53:23

Mm-hmm.

Anne 53:24

cause realistically, he's a dick, but, like, nobody deserves what Lecter's gonna do to him. he's not a murderer, He's slimy, but, you know. Maybe the Epstein, people might deserve the Lecter treatment. But, like, other than that, you know, like, Lecter, uh, Chilton, Chilton probably would be in the Epstein files given the opportunity. But-

Caroline 53:39

literally about to say that. I didn't wanna interrupt you for the 18th time on this episode, but I, literally gonna be like, "I'm pretty sure he's an Epstein person."

Anne 53:48

Yeah. Oh, he would be like Elon Musk, like begging to go at least, but not invited. Yeah. okay. What is the most upsetting or scariest moment for you?

Caroline 53:58

we already discussed it, but realizing that the EMTs are gonna die.

Anne 54:02

Yeah.

Caroline 54:02

Cause they're just EMTs.

Anne 54:04

Yeah, they're like really good people who are sacrificing their own mental health for the good of humanity, every day.

Caroline 54:10

What

Anne 54:10

I think just his whole escape, including that, limos- um, ambulance scene. I just said limousine.

Caroline 54:16

Yes.

Anne 54:17

like the suddenness and ferocity of the way he handcuffs the guards. Like, we know it's coming, but it's still like, whoa. And, just the way he attacks is so animalistic and ferocious and so, in contrast with how subdued and controlled and sophisticated he's been with Clarice.

Caroline 54:36

Mm-hmm.

Anne 54:36

get the juxtaposition of the piano music with just violence and blood and, even though we're not seeing what's happening to the guard, we're hearing, like, the crunching and squelching and the, the way every time the baton comes down, it's very scary. I also think of that cop who thinks he's talking to Pembery, and he's, like, whispering to him and trying to kind of keep him going. And to think of that guy, like, a few hours later when he realizes that his face was that close to Hannibal Lecter's face, just imagine what he's going through.

Caroline 55:05

Mm-hmm.

Anne 55:06

obviously the night vision scene. And that moment when she sees the moth, I love that moment. It is such an oh, fuck moment, so much is said with so little. her jaw tenses in the slightest bit, her eyes widen a little bit, and it's like this I know you know moment. Like in Friends, they know. They don't know that we know that we know. You know, that passes between them before we're, we pause, and it's like, "What's gonna happen here?"

Caroline 55:27

And I think the whole, doorbell is so effective.

Anne 55:31

It's awesome.

Caroline 55:32

yeah

Anne 55:33

And then just the wandering in, around in the dark in that hellish labyrinth of a basement. You know, we see that Frankenstein-like women's suit with one breast, the sound of her breathing and her panic, and we see old Mrs. Lippman, I guess, in, like, rotting in the bath. It's very Blackbeard. You know, like the wife in Blackbeard opening up the closet and finding all this horror. The most intense version of the male gaze yet, I think, in that scene. Do you think she should've followed him into the basement?

Caroline 55:58

No.

Anne 55:59

Do you think he, he woulda killed Catherine?

Caroline 56:00

I mentioned partners, just feel like she needed backup.

Anne 56:04

she should've called, used his phone. he's in the basement. I guess theoretically he could, dash out, a bulkhead or something. But who cares? they'll track him at that point, a manhunt. He's not Hannibal Lecter, they'll find him once they know who he is. But I guess it's just like, Catherine Martin is down there. Will he just go kill her first?

Caroline 56:18

I don't know that he would because he's killing her for her

Anne 56:22

But if he realizes he's caught.

Caroline 56:23

it's not gonna help him at all if he's caught with her dead it's better for him if she's caught alive.

Anne 56:30

Yeah, I don't think they think like that, though, at that point.

Caroline 56:32

No.

Anne 56:32

know. I mean, I guess his goal would've been to take out Clarice and hopefully buy himself some time.

Caroline 56:38

That's what I would think. it's more likely that Clarice is the person whose life is in danger than Catherine.

Anne 56:43

Yeah.

Caroline 56:44

She's already in a hole, And she serves a very specific purpose, Clarice is in his way of freedom, like I was saying before about Hannibal, too.

Anne 56:53

And I guess just, dungeon-like moment we meet Lecter as she walks down the corridor. It's with the shaky camera and the lone chair, and then him fucking standing there, like, waiting for her. Have you seen those reels where it's like my kid... when I wake up, my kid when they're sick, like, wake up and standing over my bed? Like, there's some great, Hannibal Lecter reels about that. And of course the Stranger Things season four tribute to that scene is so good. We haven't talked about the autopsy scene. It just reminded me of that scene in Jaws, that "this was no boating accident" scene. Like, they don't show the body at first, They show her hand just like they do in Jaws with Chrissy Watkins, and it kind of shows that she tried to claw her way out of something. And then later on, we see Catherine seeing the fingernail in the wall of her pit. very... And then the camera, they keep taking pictures, and it's like the sound of that camera is so jarring.

Caroline 57:40

Yeah.

Anne 57:41

microfiche scenes. Clarice and Ardelia do some research on microfiche, and I just, I just always love a microfiche scene when they go to the library. I'm all in.

Caroline 57:50

I can still see the microfiche rooms in my mind you know?

Anne 57:54

Yeah. I actually have a, an idea for a book that I wanna research, and I wanna go to the Newport Public Library and look at their microfiche 'cause I need, articles from, like, the 1800s. And I don't know, maybe it's all, available online now, but I'm hoping I can go look at microfiche at some point. I haven't done it since, like, middle school.

Caroline 58:10

I think I did it in college,

Anne 58:12

Okay. Maybe I did. I don't know,

Caroline 58:13

was with it.

Anne 58:15

Okay, so, horror beneath the surface. I think, uh, the futility of working against forces that are bigger than you. Probably we all have a version of lambs we want to stop from screaming, that you can't.

Caroline 58:27

Mm.

Anne 58:28

Any other deeper horrors that you'd like to mention? quid pro quo, Caroline, what do you think?

Caroline 58:34

the fact that Hannibal Lecter was a person people went to for help,

Anne 58:39

Mm. I think that's why it's so disconcerting when murderers are doctors and...

Caroline 58:42

Yeah. It's scary to think about that you go to for help is this dark and twisted.

Anne 58:49

Mm. I think, egotistical, vindictive men like Chilton who lord their power and they talk about him, like, basically torturing Lecter in small ways, like taking away his drawings or turning up the volume of evangelical sermons you know, maybe Lecter doesn't deserve our sympathy, but we talked about in our West of Memphis episode that, not everyone in this situation is guilty, Damien Echols talks about horrific treatment on death row. So I guess whether because an innocent person could be treated this way or because we just should be better as a civilization and treat even incarcerated people who have committed horrific crimes with humanity, that sort of thing shouldn't happen. We should be better than that.

Caroline 59:25

a right. the punishment of taking away the art and the making him watch gospel, TV.

Anne 59:32

That would be a punishment for me.

Caroline 59:34

nobody deserves that.

Anne 59:35

Nobody deserves that. I mean, Chilton deserves the Lecter treatment, but nobody deserves to be forced to listen to evangelical sermons. Don't come at us, evangelicals. You're not listening anyway.

Caroline 59:46

They're not listening.

Anne 59:48

yeah, prison should be for rehabilitation and removing people who are a danger to society, not for vindictive... And not for profit, which is the case.

Caroline 59:57

prison industrial complex is,

Anne 1:00:00

It's bad. It's a deeper horror. Uh, the usual villain, patriarchy, Clarice having to deal with that male gaze and having to na-navigate male fragility, all that kind of stuff.

Caroline 1:00:10

Mm-hmm.

Anne 1:00:10

And of course, the facade of a serial killer, like you said, you know, like Montresor last week in our Amontillado episode, H.H. Holmes the week before. The fact that Ted Bundys and Dennis Radars exist is pretty scary. Do you have any questions?

Caroline 1:00:23

I have a lot. Okay, so I mentioned the pen. I also just, like, wanna know what it smelled like in that house when she went in there. There's all these, like, Chinese food boxes on the table,

Anne 1:00:33

Yeah, it'd be pretty foul.

Caroline 1:00:34

bugs

Anne 1:00:35

Oh, do you think moths smell? I don't know.

Caroline 1:00:37

I don't...

Anne 1:00:37

probably they eat stuff that might smell.

Caroline 1:00:39

Right. I also, understand, where he's being held in the second place.

Anne 1:00:46

why would they put Lecter in a

Caroline 1:00:48

in

Anne 1:00:48

cage

Caroline 1:00:49

In Memphis?

Anne 1:00:50

national?

Caroline 1:00:51

art museum? Is there, like...

Anne 1:00:53

I think I don't know. It looks like some place, like, where they would have political events or something. it's very dramatic. It looks awesome, but it makes zero sense. Like, surely they have better cells for somebody. Like, a cell where you don't have to walk in to feed him.

Caroline 1:01:06

Right, or maybe there's not an elevator. I

Anne 1:01:08

Yeah, it's a weird place to hold him. Yeah, those are my questions. why did they put him there, and how did he get the pen?

Caroline 1:01:14

yeah, yeah. And like I said before, it was not clear to me every time she's acting, when she's acting on orders and when she's not.

Anne 1:01:21

you should read the book. It's good. My main criticism is obviously the, impact of the transphobia in this. some minor things. Like, I don't know if I'd go as far to criticize this, but I don't really need the flashbacks to her childhood. Like, everything else is done through storytelling, could it have been done without those scenes? The book doesn't include them. It does include one flashback where her mother is, like, washing blood off something of her father's, but I don't think there's a funeral scene.

Caroline 1:01:44

Hmm. I have more criticisms that aren't questions.

Anne 1:01:47

Okay.

Caroline 1:01:47

I always hate in movies when, and we talked about this actually with Hereditary, when it's like they're looking for something and they go straight to the thing. Like, how the fuck she knew that that music box opened where it

Anne 1:02:00

I

Caroline 1:02:00

and that those Polaroids would be there. Also, the purpose of the Polaroids, I don't really understand,

Anne 1:02:05

think it's just showing that Frederica had a life that the other investigators weren't looking into, and that's what leads her to the friend. Did she have a boyfriend? 'Cause sh- clearly she took these pictures for someone.

Caroline 1:02:14

Yeah, but she didn't have a boyfriend, so she didn't

Anne 1:02:16

that's what the friend said. I've always thought that maybe she was kind of,

Caroline 1:02:20

Involve a

Anne 1:02:21

that Jame Gumb spent some time with her and maybe asked her for the pictures and was flattering her to put her into a position, but kept keeping it a secret. You know, and that the friend didn't know, and she kept it a s- that was my interpretation.

Caroline 1:02:31

I know that I assumed that when I was a child, and watching this, that I assumed they were

Anne 1:02:37

Why were we watching this as children? Yeah.

Caroline 1:02:39

but I, but I was not paying attention to the... 'Cause the conversation with the friend is boring, so I was never paying attention to, like, the fact that she was like, "No, if she had a dude, I would know." And I also feel like that's true of

Anne 1:02:51

general, unless Jame Gumb was manipulating Frederica to be like, "You can't tell anyone," and Frederica was somebody who didn't get a lot of guys because her friend calls her a big old dummy, right? And, or a big fat dummy, I think.

Caroline 1:03:03

do, those Polaroids exist in the book?

Anne 1:03:05

Yes, but it's actually in Catherine Martin's ballerina box,

Caroline 1:03:09

okay.

Anne 1:03:09

and it leads nowhere. to your criticism, for example, finding the storage unit is pages and pages and pages in the book, and they just cut it in the movie, so.

Caroline 1:03:17

she goes straight to the the jar with the head in it, immediately. And

Anne 1:03:22

Oh,

Caroline 1:03:22

just sort of like, There's a lot of stuff in the storage unit. It would've taken me a really long time to get through that. And also, for storage unit access, just anecdotally, I had a parent who passed who had a storage unit, and we needed, like, a death certificate to get in. You couldn't just, like, show up and be... Like, my stepsister, who was the birth daughter, was like, "I'm the executor of his will," and they were like, "Come back with his death certificate."

Anne 1:03:46

wow. I guess it was the '90s. Yeah, And she, she had a badge.

Caroline 1:03:50

true. Okay.

Anne 1:03:51

yeah, I do think that

Caroline 1:03:51

mine off Amazon and...

Anne 1:03:54

do think they go into a little bit more about how hard it was for her to not only to find the storage unit, but to get allowed to see it.

Caroline 1:03:59

Okay, good.

Anne 1:04:00

Any other criticism

Caroline 1:04:01

I think I've already mentioned the podcast I started, That Aged Well, and I've become very attuned to their people of color watch as I, watch things like this. And it really felt like they did a disservice to Ardelia's character. Like, I was so confused. They seem to be kind of on the same level when they're brainstorming with each other, but she's like, why is she constantly the one, like, going to get the phone for her and stuff like that? Because she's not, like, her assistant. They're peers, right? Like, I don't know

Anne 1:04:28

And in the book, I think Ardelia's the smarter one, she's, straight A's, like top of the class. Blowing everyone out of the water.

Caroline 1:04:35

Yeah.

Anne 1:04:36

you don't see that necessarily about the way Ardelia is

Caroline 1:04:39

Not at all. In fact, it seems like she exists to be in service of Jodie Foster's character, which I don't love to see.

Anne 1:04:46

they could've done more with her all right. Survival, what do we learn? Never help someone with a broken limb, at least not in a dark parking lot at night. Keep on walking.

Caroline 1:04:55

I also know that from this movie, I learned about the whole, humanize the, kidnapping victim thing. Say their name and, and all of that stuff to humanize them or whatever.

Anne 1:05:06

So if you're in this position, humanize yourself.

Caroline 1:05:09

Right. Which also happens in Grey's Anatomy, by

Anne 1:05:12

Mm-hmm.

Caroline 1:05:12

way.

Anne 1:05:14

I guess just remember that because someone is charming and sophisticated doesn't mean they're safe. Be afraid of everyone. Is that good advice?

Caroline 1:05:21

Check. Done.

Anne 1:05:23

No, just live your life, you know. But, don't turn your back on a lector. Watch your pens.

Caroline 1:05:27

If you're helping someone, you don't need to be the one that goes in the van. Have them

Anne 1:05:31

No, you tell him you get murdered first for once, David.

Caroline 1:05:35

Yeah. Right. Exactly.

Anne 1:05:37

All right. what's your palate cleanser?

Caroline 1:05:38

so I mentioned, I think maybe two episodes ago, that I was watching Daredevil, I was trying to continue Daredevil, and then I realized there was this other series that predates Season 3, and that I had to watch four other series just to watch that series. the first one I started with was Jessica Jones. It's

Anne 1:05:56

is such homework, isn't it?

Caroline 1:05:58

so much

Anne 1:05:58

Yeah.

Caroline 1:05:59

It's kinda stupid. I mean, it's fine.

Anne 1:06:01

RIP.

Caroline 1:06:04

stuff. the main actress in it was in Don't Trust the B---- in Apartment 23, and I fucking love that show, and I just wanted to really recommend it. It is hilarious. James Van Der Beek is himself. and I oh, yeah, RIP. always love when actors are a ridiculous version of themselves in media, like in, what's the writing one that Joey's in?

Anne 1:06:27

yeah, I know the one you're talking about. Episodes?

Caroline 1:06:29

Episodes.

Anne 1:06:31

Yeah.

Caroline 1:06:31

Episodes. I love that. I love that. So wanted to recommend Jessica Jones if you feel like a Marvel binge, and then But really, Don't Trust the B-.

Anne 1:06:39

Okay. I've never seen it.

Caroline 1:06:40

It's so good.

Anne 1:06:41

Well, what's our homework for next week?

Caroline 1:06:43

We're gonna watch Mindhunter. So

Anne 1:06:45

I'm so excited. I'm I'm halfway through Season 1, and I'm loving it. So both seasons, right? So watch both seasons of "Mindhunter."

Caroline 1:06:51

gonna watch all of it. you know, get as far as you can, I guess. But we're going to be discussing all of Mindhunter, RIP, 'cause I know we all wanted it to continue, but

Anne 1:07:02

I know. Come on, Fincher, come back. Wait, is he dead? Is that why you said RIP, or were you saying RIP to the show?

Caroline 1:07:07

The

Anne 1:07:07

Okay.

Caroline 1:07:08

He's not dead.

Anne 1:07:09

He's not dead. So he has no excuse, is what we're saying.

Caroline 1:07:11

I don't think it was him alone. I think there were a number of contractual issues, if I remember correctly, but shame spiral on that later if I'm misquoting.

Anne 1:07:23

Okay. What recommendations do you have to go along with "Silence of the Lambs"?

Caroline 1:07:27

Well, Mindhunter.

Anne 1:07:29

Yes.

Caroline 1:07:29

I also did watch Hannibal the movie. It was okay. It was a lot more gory. I feel like the less is more thing didn't totally continue. Um, but I've heard good things about Hannibal Rising, and Red Dragon in particular as a movie as well.

Anne 1:07:42

Great book, Red Dragon

Caroline 1:07:44

yes, you said. So, also the show Criminal Minds does a lot about psychological profiling. That's the one that I saw the, they all ask for their mom, thing

Anne 1:07:52

Oh, and also Catherine asks for her mom in this at one point. It made me cry. Yeah.

Caroline 1:07:56

I know.

Anne 1:07:57

you know, when I saw this in the past, I identified with Catherine as the,

Caroline 1:08:01

Mm-hmm.

Anne 1:08:02

the victim and being in that situation. But now I feel like I identify as a mother, like how I would feel if this happened to my child. Ugh, It's too scary.

Caroline 1:08:10

obviously Psycho, Texas Chainsaw Massacre. I also listened to the That Aged Well episode on this movie, which was great. It was really, really fun. you mentioned Unspooled and that Paul Holes was on it, and I acted surprised, but then I went into my podcast app and apparently I already listened to that

Anne 1:08:26

Oh. I was waiting for that.

Caroline 1:08:31

for other things on cannibalism, I loved the Wine and Crime episode on cannibalism. I've referenced it a lot in my life, so wanted to recommend that. For more positive or fun portrayals of LGBTQ life or queer life, I love Rocky Horror Picture Show. I know there's a split opinion on whether it was, a negative light on trans community or joy in, queer life, et cetera. I always really loved it. And then of course, Heated Rivalry.

Anne 1:09:00

I was like, "Of course she's building up to heated rivalry, opportunity.

Caroline 1:09:04

Jodie Foster directed my absolute favorite holiday movie, which is Home for the Holidays, so wanted to me-mention that.

Anne 1:09:10

Okay. I didn't know she'd done any directing.

Caroline 1:09:12

Mm-hmm. Hmm.

Anne 1:09:13

All right, well, yes, the Unspooled episode, I enjoyed hearing Paul Hole's take on this. So to get a Real Detective, he also talks about "Seven," "Zodiac," and of course, the Golden State Killer, so I enjoyed that. the book, Stranger Things, because the drone footage of Quantico reminds me of, the Hawkins Lab, and of course, the fantastic episode where Nancy and Robin visit Victor Creel, and the asylum is an ode to this. Also, American Hor-Horror Story: Asylum. The podcast, Old Gods of Appalachia for Clarice's West Virginia background. yeah, movies that have a similar vibe, Zodiac, Seven, True Detective Season 1 and Season 4, which has Jodie Foster in it. It's good, not great. Season 1 is great. Hannibal, the TV show, which is a tad over the top. Have you seen it?

Caroline 1:09:56

Mm-mm.

Anne 1:09:56

A tad over the top is under, um-

Caroline 1:10:00

Understating?

Anne 1:10:00

than a tad. Understating, that's the word. I was, like, underestimating, underwhelming.

Caroline 1:10:04

Mm-hmm.

Anne 1:10:05

long. I've lost my words. it's the artful creative display of bodies is, like, insane, but it's worth watching, and I love Mads Mikkelsen, so... Home Alone, Black Phone, and Barbarian for scary basements. The Ring because of the well pit in Bill's basement. For unreasonable, uh, standards of thinness, Love Actually, right? You know, like, the way, you know, Katherine Martin is referred to by Buffalo Bill as a great big fat person, like, come on. really silly fun and a movie that's probably problematic, I don't think I've seen it since my 20s, but, Super Troopers because of all the state troopers, waiting around the funeral home, and the fact that the actor who plays Chief Grady is in the SWAT team. And as I've said before, when you think you recognize an actor and then you look them up and it is the actor you thought it was, it's, like, the best feeling, and I had that with this. don't love this movie, but a lot of comparisons have been made between this and the movie Longlegs with Nicolas Cage, who is super creepy in it, and it's got the same actress as the lead in It Follows, which we covered in episode three. But it's, you know, it's... I don't know. It's a C. and the musical Oklahoma! because Lecter says, "People will say we're in love," and that's a song from Oklahoma!. that's it for me. Anything else?

Caroline 1:11:19

if you're gonna mention Oklahoma, I have to mention When Harry Met Sally" because of "Suri with a wrench on top."

Anne 1:11:25

Oh, yeah. Great scene. Great movie.

Caroline 1:11:28

Yeah.

Anne 1:11:29

All right. Well, if you have any recommendations for TV shows, podcasts, books, movies that would go along with Silence of the Lambs or that you'd like us to cover in the future, please contact us. We are available on Instagram, Facebook, and Threads. Follow us there, and do all the things podcasters ask you to do. Like and subscribe. Review us on iTunes. You can email us at drawntodarknesspod@gmail.com. And most importantly, please tell a like-minded friend who's also drawn to darkness. And if like Shirley Jackson, you delight in what you fear, join us in a week or two at Drawn to Darkness. Special shout out to Nancy Ano who painted our cover art. You can find her on Instagram at Nancy ano and to Harry Kidd for our intro and outro music. You can find him on Instagram at Harry J. Kidd and on Spotify.