37 - David Fincher's Mindhunter

In this episode of Drawn to Darkness, we examine David Fincher’s tragically incomplete Netflix series Mindhunter. Set in the late 1970s, the show follows FBI agents Holden Ford and Bill Tench, along with Dr Wendy Carr, as they begin interviewing imprisoned serial offenders in an attempt to understand patterns of behaviour, develop the science of criminal profiling, and prevent future violence. We discuss why Mindhunter remains one of the most frustrating cancellations in television history, how the show turns conversations into scenes of dread, and why its slow-burn tension is more unsettling than most on-screen violence. We also unpack our feelings on Holden (is he a narcissist?) the 1970s period details, the sickly yellow lighting, the motel rooms, the click of Dr. Carr’s heels, the Quantico basement, the rise of true crime culture, and the difficult question at the centre of the series: what happens to the people who spend their lives studying human cruelty?

Content & Spoiler Warning:

This episode includes discussion of serial murder, sexual violence, violence against children, child abduction, domestic abuse, coercive control, suicide, animal death, misogyny, stalking, racism, institutional failure, abusive parenting, trauma, and the psychological impact of investigating violent crime. We also discuss real crimes and real victims throughout the episode, including the Atlanta Child Murders, Ed Kemper, the Son of Sam, and other historical cases. And of course, we spoil both seasons of Mindhunter.

Palate Cleanser:

For something lighter after all that behavioural science and basement dread: The MCU, especially if you want a long, familiar, superhero-heavy reset. Also rewatching Stranger Things with someone who has not seen it before, because introducing people to things you love remains one of life’s great joys.

Recommendations:

• Tickled (and The Dollop episode on Tickled) - because of the tickling principal
• Look into My Eyes- about a principal who was doing sleep hypnosis on students, 
• Real Crime Profile, True Crime Garage, Mindhunter Companion - more podcasts discussing Mindhunter
• Mindhunter by John Douglas and Mark Olshaker, Whoever Fights Monsters by Robert Ressler and Tom Shachtman, and the many books by Ann Burgess, especially if you want more of the victim-focused and research-based side of this history.
•  For FBI agents and detectives, Twin Peaks, The X-Files, True Detective, and Silence of the Lambs, The Wire
• Se7en, Zodiac, Gone Girl, The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo, Fight Club - for more David Fincher masterpieces
• Minority Report and 1984 - For predicting crime.
• We Need to Talk About Kevin and The Perfect Son by Freida McFadden to explore young sociopathy
• Inside the Manosphere, The Crash, Mean Girl Murders - more true crime docs
• The Cabin at the End of the World, Hamilton, and Frozen - because we all need more Jonathon Groff
• The Backrooms  -  because the BSU basement looks like the backrooms
• Interview with the Vampire  - for dangerous interview subjects
•  Dawson’s Creek, because Joey Potter’s dad was in Mindhunter!  .

Homework:

Watch The Black Phone.

We are continuing the basement series with Scott Derrickson’s 2021 supernatural horror-thriller, based on the Joe Hill short story. It is set in the 1970s, stars Ethan Hawke, and follows a child abducted by a masked killer and trapped in a basement with a disconnected phone that may not be as disconnected as it seems.

And remember, stay away from the Pacific Northwest (joking), don't hitchhike, store your glasses upside down to avoid dust, and don't trust strangers with record deals and modelling contracts.

 Special thanks to Nancy Azano for our cover art (Instagram: @nancyazano) and Harry Kidd for our music (Instagram: @harryjkidd, Spotify). 

Transcript

Anne 0:11

sometimes biweekly podcast where we discuss our favorite horror and true crime. if you know the red flags for sociopaths, serial killers, and narcissists, we're here for you. My name is Annie, and I'll be introducing Carolyn to my favorite horror movies, podcasts, TV shows, and books

Caroline 0:26

My name is Caroline, and I'll be doing the same from the true crime side of things.

Anne 0:30

before we get too far into it today, just a little bit of news. We are going to be featured on Gravetone podcast. So they're another horror podcast, and they've invited us on to discuss our childhood trauma movies. So movies, you know, horror or horror-adjacent movies that we saw as kids, and then re-watched them as adults. So I don't know exactly when that's coming out. It might have already come out. It might be coming out in the next week or two, but that will be there soon, and they're a really great podcast. Unlike us, we are covering things from, like, the '90s and the 1800s. They go to see movies, and they come back and record, like, immediately. So if you are actually up to date on what's happening in horror, they're a great podcast to check out All right. I wanna start with the question as usual. is a show that you love that shouldn't have been canceled?

Caroline 1:14

I bet you could guess my answer.

Anne 1:16

the be in apartment whatever, which I still haven't seen, but I is it that?

Caroline 1:21

No. My So-Called Life.

Anne 1:23

Oh, yeah, yeah. But I know you love the Bitch in Apartment... What, what is that

Caroline 1:28

Yeah, don't trust the B in apartment 23.

Anne 1:29

trust the B in apartment 23.

Caroline 1:31

I mean, I think it was fine, but it really to this day bothers me that My So-Called Life was unresolved,

Anne 1:37

Now I should have known that about you. I'm, I apologize.

Caroline 1:41

What about you?

Anne 1:41

it's probably something you haven't seen, was a Netflix horror show, and like the show we're discussing today, it I guess had a budget that couldn't be justified. but it was really good. It was like very Rosemary's Baby because it was like a cult and a mystery in an old New York building, and this guy had like kind of found footage, and he was trying to figure out what happened, and it ends on this massive cliffhanger, and it's unresolved, and I'm still pissed.

Caroline 2:03

Mm-hmm.

Anne 2:03

as pissed about what we're discussing today, though

Caroline 2:05

This one is for both of us, I think, too.

Anne 2:08

Like actually this is my answer, but

Caroline 2:10

Yeah.

Anne 2:11

that other one is my second choice for TV shows that shouldn't have been canceled today we are covering Mindhunter, a show that despite its 97% rating on Rotten Tomatoes was canceled after only two seasons. And it's probably the show most bemoaned for being canceled in general, at least in online communities.

Caroline 2:29

I, yeah, I would think so

Anne 2:31

so before we get into it, spoiler and trigger warning, there is a picture and discussion of a murdered dog, images of murder victims, lots of discussion of the details and horror of serial murder, rape, mutilation, necrophilia, paraphilia with shoes, sociopathy, violence against children, misogyny, abusive parents. There's a graphic suicide in the f- roughly the first five minutes of the show But other than that, there really isn't much gore. A bird dies on screen, and there is a hug from a serial killer that might make your heart actually stop. As usual, check does the dog die if you have a specific trigger, we will also be spoiling all 19 episodes of this. So can you tell us what this is about?

Caroline 3:11

We're also gonna be spoiling, like, a million crimes that's in the...

Anne 3:15

Well, that's history, so I

Caroline 3:17

Yeah.

Anne 3:17

spoil history

Caroline 3:18

Yeah, okay. All right. David Fincher's 2017 masterpiece cut far too short, Mindhunter, is the mostly true with extreme liberties and timeline story of how the FBI invented criminal profiling. Set in the late '70s, post Manson, pre-internet, and smack in the middle of what true crime fans consider to be the heyday for serial killers. The show follows Agents Holden Ford and Bill Tench, stand-ins for the real-life John Douglas and Robert Ressler. It begins in their road school days, following them as they drive around the country teaching local cops how to think about the motivations of an unsub. Only, we all quickly realize that nobody has figured out how to think about serial murder yet, including them. They team up with psychology professor Dr. Wendy Carr, loosely based on Ann Burgess, and embark on a mission to better understand the mind of repeat killers by interviewing them in prison. As Dr. Chilton so helpfully puts in Silence of the Lambs, "It's so rare to catch one alive." Well, we basically meet them all. Season One serves a guest star reel of nightmare fuel, Ed Kemper, genuinely the MVP of this show, Richard Speck, Charles Manson, Jerry Brudos, David Berkowitz, AKA Son of Sam, and a slow burn BTK subplot. Season Two pivots, except for the BTK part, as the team takes everything they've learned and tries to use it proactively, this time on the Atlanta Child Murders, profiling not as autopsy but as a working tool in real time. Across both seasons, we see how staring into the worst minds in America for 40 hours a week does not leave a person unscathed. Relationships fall apart. Bodies fall apart. By the end of Season Two, Tench's wife has left him, Holden is alone again, and BTK is still out there sitting at his kitchen table folding things. Cue credits, cue cancellation, cue our eternal heartbreak.

Anne 5:05

You know, I was listening to, the podcast Real Crime Profile. Have you ever listened to that? It's with, Jim Clemente, who's, like, knows these guys. He's a former Analysis Unit profiler, and this woman Laura, I'm blanking on her name, but she is with New Scotland Yard and then it's the casting director of Minds, and they just talk about all this stuff, and in their season coverage, they were like, "This show's gonna go on forever," like, "It's so good. Can't wait to see what they do with it." And I was like, "Aw, you sweet summer children." So what adjective would you use to describe this? I chose riveting and slow burn, very conversational.

Caroline 5:47

Mm.

Anne 5:48

So this was our second time watching it for both of us, right?

Caroline 5:50

Yeah. Excellent. Mm-hmm. Yeah

Anne 5:51

And I found myself getting so kind of swept up in the story that I was forgetting to take notes, which is actually probably a good thing because if I had level of notes that I would have for like a two-hour movie on this 20 hours of TV show, like we would never stop today.

Caroline 6:04

Yeah.

Anne 6:04

and you know, my husband had seen it before and I asked if he wanted to watch it with me and he was like, "No, you go ahead." And then he kept kind of like creeping into the living room, sitting down, and then he was like, "Wait, you're not going on without me" because as soon as he started he couldn't stop

Caroline 6:15

W- I watched it with my husband when, when it was out, and w- he was also upset. He doesn't, like, love this stuff, but he was also upset

Anne 6:23

Yeah.

Caroline 6:23

canceled

Anne 6:23

Well, yeah, uh, my husband is not a true crime horror guy, which is why I need you.

Caroline 6:27

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Anne 6:28

um, I think one of the reasons he likes this is because it is probably conversational. It's not showing you what these monsters did,

Caroline 6:36

Right

Anne 6:36

It's after the fact. It's wr- yeah, so, and it's more investigatory as well. And it's just such a mood. I just love the feel of the three of them, like silent in an elevator, like seeing their expressions. Like when they get their funding, their

Caroline 6:49

Mm-hmm.

Anne 6:52

Do you have anything to say about that?

Caroline 6:54

1.21 million.

Anne 6:58

Slammed it home. I knew you'd have gotten out your inflation calculator.

Caroline 7:01

So they got 200K and then 185K, which was 1.21 million plus 944, so it's really two, 2 million.

Anne 7:08

2 million. Yeah,

Caroline 7:09

Yeah

Anne 7:10

a lot when you think about the flights and the salaries, it seems like they would need more than that, but, I also like the sight of them walking down, like, fluorescent-lit halls with the yellow lighting and their beige cinder block walls, and, like, hearing Dr. Carr's heels. It's just a vibe. What a

Caroline 7:27

It is a vibe. Did you notice the room that had the, stripe on the wall, the, 70s stripe along the wall? cause my basement had those.

Anne 7:36

I don't remember what you're talking about, but So many '70s details, right?

Caroline 7:41

thick, like brown and yellow bar just, like, painted on your wall.

Anne 7:46

yeah, gross. So much sickly yellow So yeah, this came out in October 2017, a little bit of context and setting information, you just talked about the heyday of serial killers. This was the heyday of, like, the rise in interest in true crime. Not that it hasn't always been there, but, like, Serial came out in 2014, a Murderer in 2015, and My Favorite Murder in 2016, and then this in 2017. So it was like bam, bam, bam.

Caroline 8:09

Mm-hmm.

Anne 8:10

But then it's set in the '70s, so we've got those heinous colors, and as you said, a time when the idea of interviewing and understanding these killers was novel, which is something we sort of accept by the time we get to Silence of the Lambs in the early '90s, right? Like, oh, this is just something that's done

Caroline 8:27

It's not just novel, but it's like offensive. You know? I feel like I was so surprised by how upset people were at the idea when it seemed like kind of obvious to me why you would wanna do it

Anne 8:39

Well, yeah, John Douglas in Mindhunter describes it as, a disease. The crime is the presentation, so, like, the symptoms, and you try to figure out what sort of disease it is. And then if you extend that metaphor and you know the type of disease, you can come up with a vaccine, And that is one of the reasons they do this, is because you wanna prevent this stuff, and you wanna intervene be proactive, as you said. some other '70s details. You could walk someone to the gate at the airport,

Caroline 9:06

Hmm.

Anne 9:07

smoke on planes. Bleh.

Caroline 9:09

we talked about that in something else. What was it? those things, both walking the plane and smoking, those things lived into the '90s

Anne 9:17

Well, walking to the gate is 9/11.

Caroline 9:19

Mm-hmm.

Anne 9:19

what stopped that. Or maybe the

Caroline 9:21

Yeah.

Anne 9:21

Was that shoe bomber pre or post 9/11? I

Caroline 9:23

think it was post.

Anne 9:25

Yeah I'm glad I don't have to exist in a cloud of secondhand smoke anymore, and, as a teacher and a parent, you know, we're always bemoaning kids on screens, kids on screens. But, like, imagine doing their job without phones, right? Like I could

Caroline 9:36

嗯。

Anne 9:36

the travel and, boring drives and motel rooms if I had a podcast, right? But without the entertainment options we have today, it's really shitty, as you see in that montage of all the bad food and crappy motels Also a time of great social change. so they really emphasize that this is, like, post-Watergate, vanishing democracy. Holden says at one point, the world barely makes any sense, so the crime doesn't either." And, you know, we've got, like, the '60s counterculture that Manson took advantage of to create his family. And, Debbie says, that Durkheim's labeling theory on deviancy. Did you understand what she was talking about there?

Caroline 10:11

I w- I meant to, like, read about that after.

Anne 10:14

I looked it up, it's a challenge to the normalized suppression of the state, and criminal- criminality is a response to something wrong with society. But there's, like, always something wrong, right? And so there's always going to be deviancy, and that it is an opportunity for social cohesion, Because we can bond over condemning it. But that also can result in atrocities if you're thinking about, say, like, the Spanish Inquisition or, you know,

Caroline 10:38

Nazi Germany?

Anne 10:39

Yeah, like, are viewing as deviant, We can think of a thousand historical examples of deviancy being persecuted a way that is not good, right? Obviously...

Caroline 10:49

deviancy,"

Anne 10:50

Yes, which they discuss a lot.

Caroline 10:51

Yeah.

Anne 10:52

okay, that's the kind of deviant we need to lock up,

Caroline 10:55

Mm-hmm.

Anne 10:55

I thought the whole part with Holden at the university was interesting, with the

Caroline 11:00

Yeah. thinks Holden is a spy.

Anne 11:02

in Robert Russler's, Whoever Fights Monsters, was one of the ones who did that. He his hair out long and, like, dressed up as, like, a disgruntled Vietnam vet and would, infiltrate things

Caroline 11:12

I was like, "Wait, why does everyone hate them?" they did do a really good job of reflecting the tone of the time,

Anne 11:19

Well, I thought it was interesting in Mindhunter, Douglas gets, upset that he wasn't accepted in these classes, and it actually happened, like, he was with his wife, and he was, auditing these classes, I guess. But people thought he was recording them, which he says he wasn't, he was actually there to learn. he says, "The paranoid self-importance of these people never ceases to amaze me." But it's like, but you guys were doing that. Maybe

Caroline 11:39

Yeah.

Anne 11:39

the infiltration spying was happening, so they're not actually being paranoid, Right.

Caroline 11:44

Right

Anne 11:45

but yeah, it was interesting that enmity between the counterculture academia and law enforcement. Feels reasonable that

Caroline 11:52

Totally.

Anne 11:55

the Lambs episode, we're back at Quantico, and then they're just bouncing all over the place. Like, we've got UVA, like our Cask of Amontillado episode. We've got prisons in California, small rural towns, police precincts, Atlanta, and all signposted in that big, intense font Did you like that font?

Caroline 12:11

Yes, I loved it.

Anne 12:12

I don't know. It, it made me happy every time I

Caroline 12:14

Yeah.

Anne 12:15

Now we're here."

Caroline 12:16

yeah

Anne 12:17

All right. so we should talk a little bit about the creators of this. Did you know that Charlize was involved in this?

Caroline 12:24

Ow.

Anne 12:25

She was an executive producer, this is one of my fun facts. When she was researching for her role as Eileen Wuornos, which we cover in episode 24, she read Mindhunter, and so she acquired the rights and apparently brought it to Fincher.

Caroline 12:37

Oh my God

Anne 12:38

very much involved. Yeah And then David Fincher, I mean, what a resume, right? Fight Club, Se7en, Gone Girl, Zodiac, Girl with the Dragon Tattoo with Daniel Craig, which I talked about last episode, I think in and he directed that and I didn't even know.

Caroline 12:50

Social network?

Anne 12:52

network? Do you have a favorite David Fincher movie?

Caroline 12:54

Maybe seven.

Anne 12:56

it would be

Caroline 12:56

I guess it...

Anne 12:57

for me.

Caroline 12:57

I've never seen Zodiac because...

Anne 13:00

shit,

Caroline 13:00

I know. I will tell you why. Because I started to watch it, and I got so upset in the beginning scene. the first murder was so upsetting.

Anne 13:10

on The

Caroline 13:11

on the lake, yeah.

Anne 13:13

is a

Caroline 13:13

A-

Anne 13:14

upsetting scene

Caroline 13:15

and I was like, I can't do this," so, but I n- I'm aware that it's an excellent movie, but it was just, it was It reminded me, there's also an episode of American Horror Story where there's a couple having a picnic, and they wake up and, one of them is being just, like, butchered to death, and the other one wakes up next to, watching it happen, and it's just, it's so upsetting

Anne 13:33

As people who enjoy camping and nature, it is very scary to think about. Cause what would you actually do if somebody

Caroline 13:39

Yeah.

Anne 13:40

There's not much you could do, let's see. Uh, he's known as being meticulous. I listened to an interview with Jonathan Groff, and he compares him to that teacher who's, like, a real hardass. I don't, I don't have the exact quote. I'm kinda paraphrasing here. But one that made you, like, work really hard, but you appreciate long term. He would take a lot of shots sometimes. I learned on the Real Crime Profile episode that I think he took 60 shots of Bill Tench barbecue, he's talking to those guys. Made him do that flipping burgers 60 times

Caroline 14:08

Wow

Anne 14:08

But I guess it was his decision to walk away from this to some extent, not wanting to compromise his vision to fit a Netflix budget So

Caroline 14:17

Ew

Anne 14:17

I don't know. I think he spends a lot of money getting the period details right. would it be as good without that? I don't know. For me, I feel like it's the acting that makes it. So I don't know. To quote Rose, "Come back. Come back." Kind of like George R.R. Martin not finishing bloody A Song of Ice and Fire, hey?

Caroline 14:34

Ugh. No, he's not not compromising principles, he's just being lazy.

Anne 14:40

The biggest case of writer's block of all time, hey? have you read these books?

Caroline 14:46

No

Anne 14:46

They're really good. I had read both of them before, and I re-listened to the audiobooks, interesting because I feel like there's... Overall, the thesis of both books is like, I told you so. I was right," over and over and over again. It's like, I predicted that the person would be driving a green Volkswagen," and lo and behold, yes, he was driving a green Volkswagen

Caroline 15:05

ugh, my journey on, with this was so surprising to me compared to the first time I watched it, which would've been like a, a decade ago.

Anne 15:14

Get much tougher on Holden, right?

Caroline 15:16

I could not stand him. I could not stand him. I enjoyed him so much the first time, and this time I was like, You arrogant, pompous piece of shit." He's just so self-involved and dangerous. He, He falls victim to the same thing that cops with a single focus victim in mind do. He just does it with his profile, which is even more dangerous 'cause there aren't actual, like, tangible pieces of evidence to use. I found him to be quite, upsetting as a person with authority

Anne 15:49

Well, Yeah. that tunnel vision. And if that tunnel vision and the profile results in picking up somebody who didn't do it, who maybe doesn't have the highest IQ or is young, how many false confessions have perhaps resulted from profiling? Because I, I know of one. In Whoever Fights Monsters, was, I think early '90s, Ressler talks with great pride about profiling the killers of a woman called Lori Rossetti, who was pulled from her car at a stoplight, raped, and murdered. And this profile led to a group of Black teens who he said were wilding, and they basically hauled in these usual suspects, bunch of Black teenagers. so as, as I was listening to this, I was like, That sounds suspicious to me," right?

Caroline 16:28

Mm-hmm.

Anne 16:28

it turns out that, like the Central Park Five, four innocent teenagers went to jail, and they were exonerated in 2001. they recanted. They confessed because they were coerced, we know about how that works from our West of Memphis episode. So I just wonder, like, many other people

Caroline 16:42

it really felt like he was finding suspects based to fit his theory And, Tench was trying to hold him to that. Like, we shouldn't be singularly focused. I mean, of course, the example in season two of the guy, who didn't fit the profile who they arrested and then released, I was sort of like, "Holden, there's a person whose prints are in proximity to bodies. You have to bring that person in e- even if they don't fit your profile." it would be insane not to,

Anne 17:14

Well, he was very dismissive of looking into the Klan, Douglas

Caroline 17:18

Mm-hmm.

Anne 17:19

that, and you, you know, he was Right It wasn't. he says that a Klan-style killing would be public, and they would be kind of, making a big deal out of it because the point is terror and hate.

Caroline 17:29

It doesn't mean that the Klan didn't see this opportunity to kill more small Black boys,, I think it, is clear at the end of that that it's unresolved how many of those victims were really just his victims,

Anne 17:43

I had the thought as I was watching this, could, Wayne Williams have been railroaded, and the internet, Reddit tells me no, like, he did it, And in Mindhunter, the book, Douglas says he's convinced that he committed 11 of those 28 killings, Now, that doesn't mean he didn't do all of them, or more of them, just because we don't have the evidence to connect him to those. But in the book, again released in the '90s, Douglas says... And so I was thinking, okay, well, the biggest indicator that Wayne Williams did it is if the murders stopped, right? Like, once he's in jail. But Douglas says, "There continue to be deaths of children, and the truth isn't pleasant, but we don't have the evidence." And so I'm reading this, "The truth isn't pleasant," and I'm like, you know, Jennifer Lawrence in that like, "What, what do you mean? What do you mean?" Like

Caroline 18:27

Yeah.

Anne 18:28

and I can't, can't help but think, is, is he referring to politicians and powerful people picking up, vulnerable kids? maybe that makes me sound crazy and I'm leaning into conspiracy theories, but, like, same thing with True Detective. Like, when you look back at that, vulnerable children taken by powerful people for nefarious purposes, and now we have some evidence that was happening.

Caroline 18:47

Drink Annie is mentioning Epstein.

Anne 18:49

Yeah. I can link everything to that. Yeah. Well, in terms of the book, there's turf war going on here. Ressler's book came out first, and I think he mentions it. Again, I listened to the audiobook, and I sometimes drift in and out when I'm listening to audiobooks. But I think he mentions Douglas, like, four times, and any time he does mention Douglas, it's like, "Oh, this new agent I was breaking in." Like, he really, really minimizes Douglas' role. then Douglas, on the other hand, is like, "I did this, I did this, I did this," right? But he doesn't minimize Ressler. He's like, "Bob and I," you know? But it, it seems like Douglas was writing, like, in response to being because his book came out second. there's so many qualifying relative clauses, like the program that, that I championed It, it was very like, "Don't forget about me," right? "I did this."

Caroline 19:37

did you do it for you or did you do it for the greater good?

Anne 19:40

yeah,

Caroline 19:41

over yourself.

Anne 19:42

Something that Douglas really emphasizes, is the not only I told you so, I was right, but He's kind of like the epitome of we're not so different, you and I, that stereotypical line you see

Caroline 19:53

Mm-hmm.

Anne 19:53

between killer and hunter. he does seem to almost admire these people at times, though he does at the same time take pains to say what horrible, inadequate losers they are, like all the time. But he also compares them to artists, and you have to understand the painting. Like, that was another one of his metaphors. the crime scene is the painting. They are the artist, which is different than disease, and this is the symptom of the disease, right?

Caroline 20:15

Quick question. Did Ann Burgess feel the need to write a book being like, "I was there too, and I also did this"?

Anne 20:21

Anne Burgess has written multiple books, and I tried to get it through my Libby account, and it was a six-week wait, so I couldn't read

Caroline 20:28

Oh.

Anne 20:28

But

Caroline 20:28

Yeah, I just wonder I know that she has written books, but I just wonder if they're as me, me, me as what you're describing.

Anne 20:36

I mean, doubtful.

Caroline 20:37

Yeah.

Anne 20:38

Yeah. there's this great podcast called Women and Crime, and they do, a profile of her. she was actually a nurse, not a psychologist, very victim-focused. coming in and streamlining it and making it more was her, when they were going on, intuition. She's one of the first to link rape to power and control and not just sex. And in more recent years, she worked with the Menendez brothers at their first trial. I guess that's not really recently, but... And I don't know much about them, other than

Caroline 21:04

Oh.

Anne 21:04

looking back with a different lens on what happened there.

Caroline 21:07

I know quite a bit about that. We should cover them at some point. It is an important thing to consider

Anne 21:13

I only saw the '90s coverage, which depicted them as rich

Caroline 21:18

Monsters. Yeah.

Anne 21:19

with Bill Cosby victims who credit her with helping with recovery, and these hosts give her some credit for really being instrumental in starting the Me Too movement through her work with Cosby victims. So she's pretty badass

Caroline 21:28

Mm-hmm I should read her book too. Books.

Anne 21:31

Yeah. I've put it on hold, but it's too late for this podcast.

Caroline 21:34

Yeah.

Anne 21:35

I wouldn't wanna cover Mindhunter or Whoever Fights Monsters because I think there's too much crossover, but maybe we cover down the track an Ann Burgess book one thing about John Douglas and the line between the monster and the hunter, he really talks about honing his manipulation technique. he's the manipulator, too, like playing sport and working as a bouncer, profiling people in line to predict who would cause trouble. at one point, he talks about a serial killer refining their technique or their fantasy, and in the subsequent chapter, he talks about himself refining a profile, and I feel like that use of the word refining for

Caroline 22:07

嗯。

Anne 22:08

him and his actions and the serial killer's feels very deliberate. in his most shocking admission for me, he talks about proposing to his wife, and he refers to the proposal as staging his interrogation

Caroline 22:19

Weird.

Anne 22:20

No wonder they broke up.

Caroline 22:21

Yeah.

Anne 22:22

I think he would be a very difficult person to be married to, and he admits that in the book. I think there's narcissistic traits here.

Caroline 22:28

It definitely sounds like it

Anne 22:29

I think Overall I like Rustler's book more, even though it brushes Douglass off to the side. It's less braggadocious

Caroline 22:36

Sorry, I was about to sneeze, but then I realized you were looking at me and I couldn't.

Anne 22:41

You can sneeze in front of me. It's okay.

Caroline 22:42

No, no, no, like, if someone's looking at me I can't

Anne 22:46

Oh. That's a weird thing. You can actually turn that off and on, your ability to sneeze?

Caroline 22:51

No, my body becomes like... My s- my self-consciousness runs so deep it's subconscious.

Anne 22:57

forgot to sneeze. Well, let's talk about some of the film techniques that they use.

Caroline 23:03

Yes. Oh, I loved it. I loved it all.

Anne 23:06

I my favorite is Psycho Killer,

Caroline 23:08

Yeah.

Anne 23:08

they're going down the elevator. Maybe it's when they get their funding.

Caroline 23:11

I think so.

Anne 23:12

such a good moment.

Caroline 23:13

I think I even wrote that down. And my notes are so messy.

Anne 23:18

You know, mine were such a mess too I tried to organize, but

Caroline 23:21

Can we, we just interject here with a couple random notes because I don't know when we're gonna get to them? I wrote, "Pinto comes out of nowhere." I don't know what that's about.

Anne 23:30

Is that a car?

Caroline 23:31

Yeah, a Pinto is a car. But, I wrote, "Getting blood off shirt, hydrogen peroxide."

Anne 23:38

Yes. so symbolic that you can't take the stain of this off you. with Tench bringing that photo home and his kids seeing it. Like, even if you're not physically bringing it home, you're emotionally bringing it home.

Caroline 23:50

Yeah.

Anne 23:51

was very deliberate starting with that

Caroline 23:53

also Andy Warhol's sociopath.

Anne 23:56

Why did that come up? I

Caroline 23:57

I don't know.

Anne 23:58

don't remember anything about Andy Warhol.

Caroline 24:01

I don't know.

Anne 24:03

Well, listeners, if you can remember the connection to Andy Warhol, let us know. Well, yeah, in my notes there was sometime, so many times, 'cause I dictate my notes, and sometimes I'm... it dictates wrong, and I'm like, What the fuck was I trying to say

Caroline 24:15

I know I just wrote sociology on one line.

Anne 24:18

an astute observation. Well, we've already talked about the light, that sickly fluorescent yellow light, I don't know, there was times when they were in California that it just, like, looked like an old photo. and I know in real life, life would be just as bright as it is any time, but I think we associate the '70s with that fade, right? Just because that's what the photos look like What did you think of the title credits?

Caroline 24:40

I don't remember them.

Anne 24:41

they're setting up the recording and then it's flashes

Caroline 24:44

Oh, yeah. Sorry, because I skipped them so much,

Anne 24:47

I did force myself to watch him a few times. Most of the time I

Caroline 24:50

You did

Anne 24:50

it remind- it reminded me of Dexter, it's like the implication of violence, these subliminal flashes. Like Zach

Caroline 24:56

Yeah.

Anne 24:57

Remember when Zach Morris did stuff?

Caroline 25:00

Speaking of sociopaths.

Anne 25:02

Zach Morris is a sociopath. Uh, what is he doing now? He's in the Epstein files. Is that an unfair accusation? He would be successful because, right, He's so charismatic. He's got the gift of the gab. He

Caroline 25:14

He's not in the...

Anne 25:15

he

Caroline 25:16

He's wor- he's working for Pete Hegseth.

Anne 25:19

Ugh, sack

Caroline 25:20

Chugging beers with Kash Patel.

Anne 25:22

Ew. But yeah, I think the title credits I think are important because it's like we are, along with Holden, in our fascination,

Caroline 25:33

Mm-hmm.

Anne 25:34

But it's this reminder of these dead, grayish blue mutilated bodies that, men actually, and I'm not being sexist, the horror these men actually did, I think we need to keep coming back to that with sensitivity, right?

Caroline 25:46

Mm-hmm.

Anne 25:46

Speaking of fascination you know, at one point Tench asks Wendy, "Do you think people would be interested in this outside of law enforcement?" And it's like, Yeah, clearly."

Caroline 25:56

I know. When, when she was getting annoyed with him at the barbecue, I was like, gotta know this is the most interesting topic." Although I will say, I was on a call recently, I mentioned that I was gonna be going to Utah for work, and I was like, "I'm really excited. I've, you know, I've watched a ton of documentaries that take place in Utah. It looks gorgeous." And the person was, like, LDS, and I was like, "Yeah, mostly. Also Ruby Franke, a bunch of other stuff." And then,

Anne 26:22

that's a good book

Caroline 26:23

she mentioned that she worked in the ME's office when they found, like, a Bundy victim, and I was, like, fascinated. She ta- she talked about, like, a kneecap that was, nowhere near the rest of a body, and I was like, "Oh, an animal must..." And then this other woman on the call was like, "I like flowers." And I was like, Okay, cool. Sorry that you think we're weirdos, but this is objectively interesting."

Anne 26:45

mean, flowers aren't.

Caroline 26:47

no, they're not

Anne 26:49

What, you wanna talk about flowers, like, on this work call? Like, what are you gonna say?

Caroline 26:52

Like why don't we talk about the weather then?

Anne 26:54

Yeah, God. Dull people don't like murder. Laura Richards on that real crime profile talks about how you never know how people are gonna react, that can either clear a room or attract a room, Like, because people, a lot of people do wanna hear what she has to

Caroline 27:09

That is a skill set I have as well. I can either really rev up a conversation or kill it immediately.

Anne 27:17

I started talking about Ed Kemper at my most recent book club, and I was like, "Maybe I need to tone it down."

Caroline 27:22

But speaking of the fascination yeah, speaking of the fascination thing, I did make a note here how the first time I watched this, I didn't know who BTK was supposed to be.

Anne 27:31

Oh, I know?

Caroline 27:32

I was watching all those scenes being like, "Who is this person? I don't know who this is." You know, and having to look it up after the fact, and, like, what a little murderino baby I was.

Anne 27:41

Yeah. Sweet summer child again.

Caroline 27:43

I know

Anne 27:44

those flashes of his life, it's like the corpses in the opening credits. It's so creepy. But as of the publication of the book, Mindhunter, he had not been caught. He got caught in the early 2000s, so I was kind of wondering like, "Well, where are they going with this?"

Caroline 27:59

Right. And it wasn't profiling that caught him, it was like... Well, I guess it was, right? Because they figured out...

Anne 28:06

Like he

Caroline 28:06

Yeah.

Anne 28:07

disk or something.

Caroline 28:08

But I think

Anne 28:09

hubris

Caroline 28:10

it was, but I think the fact that he would have that hubris was a, a profiling recommendation

Anne 28:16

Well, they could still make a movie, with these characters and just, you know, leading up late '90s or whatever, what maybe while Holden and Tench are, investigating him. It's not too late, David. I like the scene I think it's at the beginning of episode two where he's being like really pedantic about the tape, Bring me the roll back if you want new tape."

Caroline 28:36

Oh, yeah.

Anne 28:37

It reminded me of Bev Keane in, um, Midnight

Caroline 28:40

Totally.

Anne 28:40

being an asshole about the supply closet. But yeah, I hate BTK so goddamn much 'cause he targets kids, and, the fact that he worked for ADT is so creepy because between him and that tree trimmer guy who, raped and killed the majorette little girl,

Caroline 28:53

Mm-hmm.

Anne 28:54

that a builder or man or something, notices you in your home, I find that very scary. And the fact that my neighbors have been renovating their house for like a decade, how many people have like seen me, walk into the kitchen to get coffee in my underwear or something?

Caroline 29:09

That's so funny 'cause there's been times, when my neighbors were renovating their house for, like, a year, and I would leave the kids Drive over to CVS, pick something up, and come back, and I would be like, If anything happens, run to the neighbors. there's always someone over there working on something,"

Anne 29:22

Yeah.

Caroline 29:22

you know?

Anne 29:23

Well, I think in general we can be a little less worried about all of that because I don't think they can, get away with it anymore to that, to some extent, Right. Like

Caroline 29:34

Right. Ring cams, you know.

Anne 29:36

and just locking doors,

Caroline 29:37

Yeah

Anne 29:37

was it the vampire guy, Richard? Not Speck. Richard Chase. would just go, like, door to door, and if your door was open, that's, was why he went after you, right?

Caroline 29:45

Yeah.

Anne 29:45

guys, uh, unlocked door people? your mom had a stalker, so, like, I'm sure it would've changed at that point if you were

Caroline 29:51

The door was unlocked if we were home, unless it was nighttime. It was always l- locked when we were sleeping

Anne 29:57

my family, we were door unlocks people growing up, right? Like, you'd just come home and the door was unlocked, Seems so stupid,

Caroline 30:03

lock this door, but I have two enormous dogs and a Ring cam so

Anne 30:08

but we didn't have a Ring cam in the '80s and '90s, right?

Caroline 30:10

yeah.

Anne 30:11

A lot of these are opportunistic. Like, if you happen to leave your door unlocked in your car or your house, like, they'll come in, but if a, somebody wants to get into my house, they could Ocean's 11 it, like, so easily, right? But if they're

Caroline 30:23

Oh, yeah

Anne 30:23

they're just gonna go to the next one. And if they come to my house, they will be very disappointed because the only thing of value is, like, a 10-year-old iPad, right? Like, all of our stuff is so crappy. So there's no jewelry. Like, I don't have nice jewelry. So they will be very disappointed. got some used bikes,

Caroline 30:41

Yeah.

Anne 30:41

Um, okay. So let's talk about serial killers in general, bit of history. According to Radford University's serial killer database, there were nearly 300 known active serial killers in the '70s, 250 in the '80s, and by the 2010s, fewer than 50 active known killers. And they tend to be men in their 20s and 30s, white men, so it's not sexist if we are saying he here

Caroline 31:01

Hmm.

Anne 31:01

But as Ed Kemper says in Mindhunter, "Everything you know about serial killers has been gleaned from the ones who have been caught," which I think is a very creepy line

Caroline 31:09

Right And that whole thing, it was actually, it reminded me of, addict behavior because if an addict doesn't want you to know what they're doing, you're not gonna. and a lot of times by the time you do, it's either because they've completely lost control or they wanted you to catch them so they could stop,

Anne 31:26

Is what Ed Kemper did, He turned himself in. Yeah I guess now we have ViCAP, which both Russell and Douglas were instrumental in setting up. As you said, CCTV, DNA, home security systems, just cell phones. Like, having a cell phone

Caroline 31:38

Yeah

Anne 31:39

to get into a situation where you need to hitchhike,

Caroline 31:42

and also people can get caught more, much more easily, your infotainment system in your car and your cellphone, the data of your cellphone not being in use can be used against you just as much as it being in use, you know? if it's like you are constantly on your phone, but on the night that, that so-and-so was murdered, your phone was off not being used for eight hours, you know? and it was the only time, that could be used against you, too.

Anne 32:04

So if one of us was not listening to a podcast for an hour, they would know we were up to something, right? Like, what would that say?

Caroline 32:12

yeah, a thousand percent

Anne 32:13

if you had a night where you didn't listen to podcasts

Caroline 32:15

didn't

Anne 32:16

all night.

Caroline 32:17

podcast, somebody would be like, "She was up to something."

Anne 32:19

She's up to something

Caroline 32:20

maybe my dog ran away, 'cause that happens too,

Anne 32:23

You wouldn't, like, listen to a podcast while you were searching just to keep your mind off the anxiety?

Caroline 32:27

No, I'm too angry

Anne 32:29

Okay.

Caroline 32:30

at ungrateful dogs.

Anne 32:32

when you do everything for them And I, I, my guess is that as a percentage of the population, there are still just as many psycho sexually motivated potential killers out there. They just get caught before they can become serial,

Caroline 32:43

Right.

Anne 32:44

they're preying on sex workers and the homeless instead of noticeable coeds, or they can't act out those fantasies, so they get a gun and commit mass murder. I think arguably they were always there. You know, we've talked about the Bloody Benders, H.H. Holmes, Belle Gunness, Jack the Ripper, Douglas puts forth, and I, I don't think he's the only one, but that the wolves and monsters of fairytales actually refer to serial killers. but... the population was smaller, right? So the number was smaller, so we probably got a population spike in the '70s, which explains it, and then we've got them getting caught. Have you also

Caroline 33:14

Right.

Anne 33:14

the lead paint thing?

Caroline 33:16

That lead paint would cause them to go insane or whatever? Mm-hmm.

Anne 33:21

impulse control in the brain, and so when the EPA forced the phasing out of lead paint, there was a drop in violent crime. It's one of those theories that gets bandied about.

Caroline 33:29

a couple of those great graphs that are like, the, What's the word I'm looking for? Harvest of avocados r- related to the name Jessica in popularity, you know, or whatever. Like...

Anne 33:45

Yeah, there's definitely a correlation is not causation criticism to be made here. All right. I mean, Another thing I love, is just not that we're experts even if we engage with a shit ton of true crime. Like, we're not investigators, we're not psychologists, but, you know, we know words like organized and disorganized and serial killer, so, you know, when you see those scenes where they're figuring out, you're like

Caroline 34:05

Yeah.

Anne 34:06

you know that meme where he's like,

Caroline 34:07

Yeah, totally.

Anne 34:08

is actually from that Manson movie, right? Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, is that where that's

Caroline 34:12

never seen the movie that that's from, but I feel like we've mentioned that meme on this podcast before.

Anne 34:17

Yes, it's one of my favorites.

Caroline 34:18

It is. It's one of the best

Anne 34:20

I remember when that movie came out, my dad was so mad and I just thought that was interesting as somebody who was younger when Sharon Tate and those people were murdered to think like, "We cannot make light of this." Like, that was really serious. And he's right, right? Like, and I guess Quentin Tarantino kind of does make light of it,

Caroline 34:35

I'm not a Quentin Tarantino fan. I think he makes light of a lot of gore and a lot of violence.

Anne 34:41

think if Quentin Tarantino didn't have movies as an outlet, maybe Mindhunter would be writing about him. maybe I shouldn't say that.

Caroline 34:48

Allegedly

Anne 34:48

pretty big ac- uh, pretty big accusation. I've always thought that about Mel Gibson though, right? he's

Caroline 34:53

Oh yeah. He is

Anne 34:54

not, I'm not

Caroline 34:56

No,

Anne 34:56

say that.

Caroline 34:57

that, that doesn't need an allegedly. That's, I think, verified.

Anne 35:00

And if he wasn't like, having people tortured in Apocalypto, like what would he be doing in real life?

Caroline 35:05

Mm

Anne 35:05

okay. some of the other things we learn about are the importance of fantasy and how early it starts. they point out, whether it's in the book or the show, no one just murders somebody in a sexual frenzy at 35 without there being

Caroline 35:17

Mm-hmm.

Anne 35:18

leading to it. And, both the books and the show focus on those development of sexual fantasies, which we saw in our Yosemite Killer episode, With Cary Stayner. Like, he talks about wanting to kill the cashiers in like grade two

Caroline 35:29

and we have talked about, that we really shouldn't make light of peeping Toms like in Back to the Future. That that's like the most uncomfortable part of it is making light of that.

Anne 35:37

Well, I think this leads into the tickle thing, what did you think of that?

Caroline 35:41

I was appalled that there would be anyone who would find that acceptable. My jaw was on the floor about the people who were excusing it. and we, did talk about this briefly offline because we, there were some things we couldn't hold in.

Anne 35:54

Hang on. We just pinned this up.

Caroline 35:55

I hated being tickled so much. I still hate being tickled. It's painful. It's not, like, funny. I really hate it. My kids love it, and, that's bizarre, but, you know, you do you, everyone. I don't wanna yuck their yum. But, If any person who was, like, a person in authority in a school context was tickling my kids, I'd be like, "Get the fuck off."

Anne 36:16

Yeah. Jim Clemente, this other profiler, was like grooming with a capital G,

Caroline 36:21

Totally.

Anne 36:22

sees him, coming out of the liquor store like, you know, all downtrodden, I was like, "Fucking good." You know? Like, you can't do that. The only

Caroline 36:29

and his

Anne 36:29

think it's good is, is that the stressor that makes him escalate, losing his job,

Caroline 36:33

but I will say, like, when the wife comes in there and is like, "His life is ruined and he can't find that job anywhere else," that's just not true. I know of two teachers who sexually assaulted students that I grew up with that were able to just get new jobs in another state easily, in Rhode Island, in fact.

Anne 36:53

Okay. Just like

Caroline 36:54

So like...

Anne 36:55

border into a little

Caroline 36:56

And

Anne 36:57

And yeah, I'm from Rhode Island. I'm allowed to say that in, in

Caroline 37:00

Yeah. We know from, like, all the church s- I mean, it, the, his life was not ruined by that. yes, moving and relocating is a pain in the butt, but maybe you should have stopped tickling instead of doubling down and protesting too much, in my opinion

Anne 37:13

given many chances, taken out.

Caroline 37:15

Yeah.

Anne 37:16

I'm glad that there would be No. moral question today. I mean, the question comes up, is this the FBI's responsibility? I would say but

Caroline 37:23

No.

Anne 37:24

responsibility, right? The school superintendent or however your schools are organized should have done something about that much sooner

Caroline 37:30

Mm-hmm.

Anne 37:31

and it made me mad that no one was listening to all those women, The female teachers who very rightfully had the heebie-jeebies and no one was listening to them

Caroline 37:38

Mm-hmm.

Anne 37:39

and then there's the fact that, oh, the kids aren't traumatized. Okay. right?

Caroline 37:43

Yeah

Anne 37:43

you don't realize how off something is until years later and you put it together. It doesn't mean it's okay. Kids don't often know what's wrong. Because they trust the adults in their lives

Caroline 37:52

to the point of the vaccine, don't you wanna get ahead of the trauma that causes, you know, the permanent damage or whatever? So if you are able to interfere, then they don't have to go through it.

Anne 38:04

I guess that's why education is important, right? You've got to educate local law enforcement and local schools for what to look out for well, I think you've been dying to talk about Holden. Before we get into too much more negative stuff about Holden, can we just talk about Jonathan Groff? Because what a gift he is, and he's funny online too, like if you ever catch him on a podcast or an interview. Apparently he's such a goof that he would have to do laps making this show to like stop himself from laughing 'cause he kept getting the giggles

Caroline 38:33

I could see that. I didn't get an opportunity to see him play Seymour, which he's a way too good-looking Seymour Krelborn from Little Shop, but, I have heard him sing Suddenly Seymour, and it, I mean, his voice is just so beautiful,

Anne 38:48

He's a gift. So I found this New York Times review, and now that we can move past Jonathan Groff and talk about Holden,

Caroline 38:54

Wait, wait. I have one more Jonathan Groff thing to say.

Anne 38:57

Okay

Caroline 38:57

Do you remember at Loyola there was a priest that people called Father What A Waste? Cause he was hot and

Anne 39:03

Oh, yes. Now, I remember.

Caroline 39:05

Now, obviously not a waste. He's a gay man and gay- other gay men can enjoy, but, I feel affronted as a person he's not attracted to.

Anne 39:14

Midnight Mass and Fleabag for

Caroline 39:16

Yeah.

Anne 39:16

priest...

Caroline 39:17

Yeah. Okay, continue.

Anne 39:18

so Holden, New York Times review I found calls him, A milk-drinking straight arrow with a monomaniac streak that runs him afoul of department politics. As astute as he is with the criminal mind, basic social cues seem to elude him." And I thought that was a great description. and again, I know you couldn't... You were hating on Holden, but what did you like about him? Let's start positive Anything?

Caroline 39:39

Almost nothing. I have, I have a quote here, "Arrogant, self-serving twerp."

Anne 39:44

Okay.

Caroline 39:45

My second to last note is I was wholly unprepared for how much I can't stand Holden.

Anne 39:51

Okay. insufferable real life, But I enjoy him as a character. and one of my favorite things was his stares, like his, The Office, like almost breaking the fourth wall stares, e- e- except that he's doing it to another character. Like, he'll turn to Tench to be like, "Did you just hear what he said?" Like, know, when they're, like, putting together clues. And

Caroline 40:12

Mm-hmm.

Anne 40:15

a la Hannibal Lecter, and he says like, if acquainted with pertinent facts," and Holden gives Tench a look like, "Can we?"

Caroline 40:21

Mm-hmm.

Anne 40:22

and yeah, the glee on his face when an old lady gets murdered in season one because he was right, he predicted, which is obviously despicable, but made him an interesting character to me, and just riveting to watch

Caroline 40:34

Yes. I mean, the level of animosity I felt for him just shows that he did an amazing job performing, because it would be worse to be indifferent

Anne 40:44

I also like his look of shock when Jerry Brudos is, like, such a dick to them, in comparison to Ed Kemper, who's pleasant, and he's just like, "What?" Like, "I didn't expect this." But, like, all of them are horrific people. He should expect that. I also like his disdain. Again, I don't like it, I enjoy it, watch as a character. Like, when they're interrogating the Klan guys and he thinks it's a waste of time, like, he's slouching, he's checking his watch. And about teachers, you know, he doesn't wanna be a teacher, right? he dismissively says of teaching road school, like, "Anyone can do it. It's really not that hard." Which just

Caroline 41:15

Ugh.

Anne 41:15

I'm not saying that's true. Teaching is hard. But it just made me laugh, like, his disdain

Caroline 41:20

he drove me crazy. His relationship with his girlfriend drove me nuts. there was the time when he slut-shames her, and he's like, "This isn't you." And he's so, like, paternalistic and gross.

Anne 41:31

season

Caroline 41:31

Ugh

Anne 41:32

Yeah, he's awful to Debbie. And yeah, as you said, he was a shitty flirt. That was one of the things you couldn't help texting to me.

Caroline 41:38

I was like, I don't understand what she sees in him. And I also made some notes here. Like, they ca- when they were, like, food shopping, I was like, they can't stand each other. Why are they in this relationship?

Anne 41:47

Well, I guess that's that scene where he profiles her, and he actually is able to put his astute observations his own life. And I think it's, interesting because he is, he can get along with these serial killers. Like, he can see them, I think Tench says he gets things out of sociopaths that polite methods don't. He can make these people think they're his friends, But in real life, he can't, he can't read a room

Caroline 42:10

Mm-hmm.

Anne 42:11

I think like, okay, have you seen, the last, is it The Last Dance with Michael Jordan?

Caroline 42:15

Oh, yeah. No, I haven't.

Anne 42:16

Okay. Michael Jordan is a genius, of basketball.

Caroline 42:19

Yes.

Anne 42:20

amazing. He's so determined, would've been insufferable as a teammate, right? And

Caroline 42:25

Sure

Anne 42:25

think like, well, do we need to, you know, maybe be slightly forgiving of these people, To allow genius to thrive, documentary by the way.

Caroline 42:34

I have heard that, yeah.

Anne 42:36

so like do we need to put up with the eccentricities of exceptional people? Do you think

Caroline 42:40

Yeah,

Anne 42:41

has narcissistic or sociopathic traits?

Caroline 42:43

was, I... 1,000% he's a narcissist

Anne 42:45

maybe you need a touch of that to do this job,

Caroline 42:48

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Anne 42:49

And he really likes having his ego stroked, which you get from Mindhunter the book, He likes feeling on top and successful. as Debbie says, he changes, he says at the end of season one, "The only mistake I ever made was doubting myself."

Caroline 43:01

Ugh.

Anne 43:01

Yeah. Gunn compares him to a yearling that needs guardrails. he's gotta be kept in that place between method and madness.

Caroline 43:10

Another thing I was thinking about was, in the relationship with her, when she's, like, studying and he keeps interrupting her, it just reminded me of, the boy-

Anne 43:18

hated him.

Caroline 43:19

boyfriend in The Devil Wears Prada or, Ross with Rachel's career.

Anne 43:22

Yes,

Caroline 43:23

Like,

Anne 43:24

it was just like, that.

Caroline 43:25

Ugh. Worst

Anne 43:26

like so clear, I need to study," and he just is sucking her time because He's, more important. Yeah

Caroline 43:33

he's the son

Anne 43:34

of Kristoff from Frozen, Holden says eight ripe C words, just like, So shocking, right? That moment.

Caroline 43:42

it is, but I also found, like, sorry, I guess this is a bit of a tangent, but, the whole conversation around swear words to be so silly in the context of everything else. Like, don't know, I

Anne 43:51

when they're like striking out like

Caroline 43:53

I have a wonderful relationship with swear words. We are best friends, me and swear words, and I know that people find them to be base and crass and whatever. They're actually tied to a high IQ, um, scientifically speaking. you

Anne 44:07

I

Caroline 44:07

thought it was...

Anne 44:07

myself when I'm teaching because I'm like, "Don't

Caroline 44:10

Yeah,

Anne 44:11

yeah.

Caroline 44:11

I don't teach, so, but, I do have three children, and they have heard me swear, and we even had to, like, have a conversation where it's like, "There are certain words that upset certain people. Mommy's not one of those people. Your teachers are, your friends' parents are, your grandparents are." You know?

Anne 44:28

Yeah, you need to code switch.

Caroline 44:29

yeah, but, it did seem really bizarre in the... And so I, maybe if there was one moment when I did appreciate him, it was when he was sort of emoting the absurdity of that discussion

Anne 44:42

In real life, it was a guard who said something along those lines. Rustler talks about it in his book, that a guard refers to, and as Rustler wrote it, "Eight eligible young women." So they obviously upped the ante a bit for the show. cause he's so straight-laced in his look, when you hear those words coming out of his mouth, it's like, whoa. and you know, I think there's, there's tension between his hubris, like he's a narcissist or at least has narcissistic traits, but the whole thing starts because he's acknowledging what they don't know, he's like, "We need to learn about this." So I thought that was an interesting kind of Arrogant, but humble about their lack of knowledge.

Caroline 45:17

Yeah

Anne 45:18

one other moment I loved with Holden when, they've successfully done something, I can't remember, it was in season one, the cops are all celebrating him, and he starts, bringing up Shakespeare, and he's like, "The greatest minds in history have been fascinated by the vagaries of behavior." And Tench has to, like, jump in and be like, Okay, stop."

Caroline 45:33

Yeah.

Anne 45:34

"You are losing the room," you know? you can see him pause, like he's gearing up for more. And can't work a room. Can work a prison interview, but... And he can't play politics either

Caroline 45:43

Mm-hmm.

Anne 45:44

Anything else you wanted to say about Holden?

Caroline 45:45

no, I do love when the girlfriend says, "You don't like w- women disagreeing with you? Very unusual for a guy in law enforcement."

Anne 45:52

my favorite moment with Debbie well, one, she doesn't even know she owns an ironing board. Like,

Caroline 45:58

Yeah.

Anne 45:59

she comes home and like t- and Holden's ironing, she's like, "Where'd you get that?" Which is

Caroline 46:02

Yeah.

Anne 46:03

I just love her... I guess she's like this deadpan, intellectual,

Caroline 46:07

Yeah

Anne 46:07

manic pixie dream girl, right? Yeah as you said, they're so- such an odd couple. I c- I can kinda see why she likes him at the beginning, but yeah, by the end I'm like, "Get out of there, girl." Oh, my favorite moment. When she is not smiling, and she's like, "No, this is just me not smiling."

Caroline 46:21

Mm-hmm.

Anne 46:22

and I feel so bad for her with the sexy shoes.

Caroline 46:24

Yeah

Anne 46:25

so shitty about that hot outfit, and he should have just told her, like, "Listen, I'm with a guy who masturbates to shoes and murders women. Like, this is not you."

Caroline 46:33

Ugh.

Anne 46:33

Anything else you wanna say about Debbie?

Caroline 46:35

No.

Anne 46:35

Do we wanna talk about Tench then?

Caroline 46:37

Yeah. So I love him.

Anne 46:39

too

Caroline 46:40

there is a scene in the beginning where he says his age is 44 years old

Anne 46:44

aged quicker back then, right?

Caroline 46:46

I just turned 44, like, two days ago,

Anne 46:49

Mm-hmm.

Caroline 46:50

I was like,

Anne 46:50

Thank

Caroline 46:51

What?"

Anne 46:51

old.

Caroline 46:52

But I Googled and the act- the actor was 54.

Anne 46:56

Okay.

Caroline 46:56

So

Anne 46:57

probably, you know, uh, age inflation from the '70s, or deflation.

Caroline 47:00

Yeah.

Anne 47:00

I don't know,

Caroline 47:01

Also, he's, he's a man, so he's allowed to play someone 10 years younger, whereas the woman has to

Anne 47:08

There's something like brutish and tough but soft about Tench. he looks like a, cross between like a high school football coach and like a former astronaut who's like ground crew in Apollo 13. Something about those like short-sleeve colored T-shirts,

Caroline 47:22

Yeah, he j- he just reminds me of Brian Dennehy.

Anne 47:24

I, I see that. Both

Caroline 47:26

Yeah.

Anne 47:26

jaws,

Caroline 47:27

Mm.

Anne 47:27

gravitas

Caroline 47:28

husky, husky dudes.

Anne 47:31

thought, like, is Robert Paulson Club. Why not?

Caroline 47:34

Meatloaf.

Anne 47:35

Yeah. Another great movie. I didn't... It doesn't even make my top three Fincher, but it's great. one moment I appreciate it, I can't remember exactly where, it was fairly early in my notes, but there's a 15-year-old victim, and he refers to her as a fi- 15-year-old child, not young woman, and I like

Caroline 47:51

Yeah. Me too.

Anne 47:52

Okay, drink. Epstein reference. You know, like certain people discussing the Epstein victims should keep that in mind. We're talking about children in many of their cases. I don't

Caroline 48:00

Yeah.

Anne 48:01

they've been through puberty. They're still children

Caroline 48:03

You know, early on he uses the term kemosabe. you remember that?

Anne 48:07

Mm,

Caroline 48:07

That was a phrase people used to say.

Anne 48:10

Yeah. it was, I feel like my dad has said it

Caroline 48:12

no, I remember it from when I was little that, like, older people would say it,

Anne 48:16

It's that generation. Buddy detective, they're a good contrast. We've got, like, the seasoned, jaded detective with the fresh, eager, inexperienced one. and Tench is good with cops, right? Like, he toes the line, he's good with politics, he's like the Yes, sir" guy. I tell my students when we're writing characters to focus on a character's attitudes, assumptions, values, and beliefs. Like, what do they believe about this? What do, what is their attitude to this, that, and the other? Because then you contrast that with a different character who has different attitudes and beliefs, and that creates conflict and tension when you put them in a room together. just the looks that pass between them. And there's this one scene where they're, like, playing off each other in the interrogation, and they're, like, bouncing back and forth, bouncing back and forth, and it's just like the rhythm of it is really satisfying And I like when sidles up next to him in his motel bed, cause he again cannot read a room, and

Caroline 49:03

Yeah.

Anne 49:04

you sit on your own bed?"

Caroline 49:06

Yeah.

Anne 49:07

Yeah. And I guess the main Tench in season two is that he is bringing it home and what's happening with his kid. What do you think's going on with Brian?

Caroline 49:16

Well, one thing I wanted to note here was, seven is not too old to be having accidents.

Anne 49:23

Yeah, It happens.

Caroline 49:24

And I, like, Googled it. I was like, "Is, is it that bizarre for a seven-year-old to be bedwetting?" And it's not uncommon. It's, like, 15% of seven-year-olds wet the bed regularly.

Anne 49:34

Yeah. for him though it was maybe it was unusual, and it reflects that he has just witnessed

Caroline 49:38

Yeah.

Anne 49:40

Well, he was adopted at three, and it raises the question, where was he before? did anyone hold him when he cried? Like that Russian orphanage study that gets brought up a lot in terms of attachment theory, where

Caroline 49:51

Right

Anne 49:51

left in cribs, not held, not able to form stable attachment. So there's that unanswered question about him. And then, Yeah. we're seeing these signs. Is it a lack of empathy when that toddler gets murdered that he doesn't say anything? You know, Nancy interprets his actions as trying to save the kid, but, like, we just don't know they would've gone with that had the seasons progressed.

Caroline 50:11

Yeah. Do you th- the mom tell your child that she forgives them if you were in her position? Cause w- sorry, what we're talking about is the, mother of the toddler who was murdered comes to talk to Nancy and says she forgives her, and asks if she can speak to the son to say that she forgives him

Anne 50:29

I think I would consider letting her talk to th- to him after thinking about it, like not in that moment. But I would not be okay with the term forgiveness if I believed my son was innocent.

Caroline 50:40

Hmm

Anne 50:40

because forgiveness implies you did wrong, and does not believe that Brian did wrong.

Caroline 50:45

I decided that I would say, "No, you can't speak to him, but you can write him a letter." And then I would just keep that letter, and if it came to a point where that child was expressing guilt or remorse as they aged, then I would present to him the letter,

Anne 51:00

Yeah, And you'd probably wanna ask Brian, "Do you wanna speak to this woman?" He's pretty little, and he doesn't speak to anyone really, so

Caroline 51:06

unequivocally I wouldn't let her speak to him at that age, but I don't think I would've just closed the door like that. It seemed a little harsh and cold

Anne 51:13

Yeah, 'cause she lost

Caroline 51:14

on both sides.

Anne 51:15

Yeah

Caroline 51:16

it seemed like it was harsh for Brian to also have that opportunity shut away from him

Anne 51:21

And he might need it. But I think, yeah, it's that 70s shut it down, suppress it, don't think about it, move on. I do think that Tench was super wrong not to move. I think that kid needed a fresh start, not his support system, 'cause I don't think he had a support system.

Caroline 51:34

I'm of two minds about that because I think he did have a point too that stability is important, and if you uproot everything like that can be unsettling as well.

Anne 51:45

Yeah.

Caroline 51:45

but if he's being alienated, it might've been worth it. I don't think she should've left him. I understand that he's quite absent with his job, but she's not working, and they need to earn money. I just think, like, if you're in a situation where there is one earner, you are a little hamstrung, both of you are a little hamstrung by that earner being able to earn, you

Anne 52:07

Yeah, 'cause he can't take care of the kid, Right. at one point he refers to working, like, over 100 hours one week. I think it was when

Caroline 52:13

Oops.

Anne 52:13

broaches the subject of that barbecue. I do find it hard to believe the social workers would've been so tough on him for being a working man who wasn't available. I think they would've been like, "Oh Yeah, par for the course. Like, of course you're not home all the time," right?

Caroline 52:24

I agree. In fact, I don't know who said this, but as I mentioned, my notes are a mess, but I wrote down someone said all fathers are absent fathers

Anne 52:31

Yes, I remember that line. I can't remember who

Caroline 52:34

And I can't say that's the case in my current household, but it was in mine growing up.

Anne 52:39

Well, luckily your husband, who comes up so often, is very much not that.

Caroline 52:44

Yes. In fact, he's putting the kids to bed right now because I am not. I'm doing this.

Anne 52:50

I think also Nancy's important because, like, her reaction to murder It's a reminder of how abnormal it is or how abnormal Tench's desensitization is. he barely flinches when it's like, oh, someone was murdered in the house that she was showing, then she's crying in the kitchen, and I'm like, "Dude, hug her."

Caroline 53:06

Yeah

Anne 53:07

appalled, she's so emotional, and he's just like, Okay." He's so walled up

Caroline 53:11

did you know right away from the back door being left open that their son was involved? 'Cause I remember both times being like, The back door."

Anne 53:17

I mean, "The back door." was open for a reason, right? Did

Caroline 53:20

Yeah.

Anne 53:20

show, did watching this make you a little paranoid?

Caroline 53:23

About what?

Anne 53:24

I don't know, like doors open, and stuff.

Caroline 53:26

No, I can't say that

Anne 53:28

During my time watching this, I drove away from my house and was like, "Did I lock my door?" And I drove went back upstairs to check. so yeah, I feel like this got into my head a little bit.

Caroline 53:38

it did. Hmm

Anne 53:39

Let's talk about Wendy, Dr. Carr. we've already talked about the real Ann Burgess, who is- is just very loosely based on. I thought it Was interesting when she admits to being a lesbian in that interview, and they all listen to the tapes, and they're all like, "Oh, good job pretending." Like, no one seems to question whether or not she was telling the truth I think you know, we're exploring what is considered deviant, Like, she's not, But at this time in history, she's having to that.

Caroline 54:03

I also noted they had a conversation about cross-dressing and saying it's sometimes sexual, and she says it has been practiced in every era, every human culture. I don't know if it says something about that they chose the woman character for that role versus one of the guys. I'm not sure. But, I do think it's important to have a character like that because there is this conversation, as we said earlier, about deviancy and what is considered deviant behavior and what is not,

Anne 54:30

An interesting conversation that happened on Real Crime Profile, of the hosts says she's really aloof and cold and clinical, and Laura Richards, who's, like, the real... has worked for FBI and Scotland Yard, is like, "Actually, no. She's just professional, and we wouldn't say that about a man who was behaving the exact same way. We wouldn't call him cold." And I thought that was a fair point.

Caroline 54:49

I saw some crazy statistic this week that was like 95% of women say they have been asked to smile more in a professional setting or something to that effect. It's really appalling

Anne 55:01

Yeah. I love her self-assurance, I like hearing, like, her analytical take on each interview. You know, when Tench or Ford are like, Oh, this isn't useful for this, that, and the other," and she's like, "Actually, no. Here's how we can use it." And

Caroline 55:14

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Cat was so sexy. I,

Anne 55:22

Sorry, wait, what do you think I said

Caroline 55:23

I said Kat was so sexy. Wasn't her name Kat?

Anne 55:26

No, that's Kay. I was talking

Caroline 55:27

Oh, K, sorry.

Anne 55:29

Kay

Caroline 55:29

yeah.

Anne 55:30

sexy. We can talk about Kay first 70s

Caroline 55:32

Kit.

Anne 55:32

70s hot

Caroline 55:33

So sexy. She was great. I felt like it was a little crazy that she was so upset that she had to watch her son, and that she assumed that the, "Oh, it's nobody," was, like, real instead of just what you would say to your ex to get them to go away

Anne 55:50

they're both being subjected to that's unfair to them, they're both in this patriarchy that doesn't respect who they are. And if Kay wants access to that kid, she has to pretend she's someone she's not. If Wendy wants to be working in the behavioral science unit, she has to pretend she's someone she isn't. So I wish they could have not judged each other on that.

Caroline 56:09

Yeah.

Anne 56:09

Neither... They're not the enemy, right? It was interesting to see how Wendy's vulnerable with Kay. she's walking into a prison with Greg, who is warning her, "If there is a riot, you will be raped," and she's like, Fine." But, like, this bartender knocks her off balance. It, you know, that we all have our vulnerabilities. Not necessarily our rock, I don't think that's what Kay is, but yet we all have the thing that makes us vulnerable do you think that whole kind of, "Fuck off, you're just a bartender," was too harsh?

Caroline 56:35

Yes. And the other thing, on the, system that is unfair and the professionalism and the coldness, et cetera, that party she goes to, when that guy hits on her, and also speaking of being desensitized or whatever, in the entire time that I watched this, that is the one time that I audibly was like, "Ugh."

Anne 56:55

Yeah.

Caroline 56:55

It just... So upsetting

Anne 56:57

I mean, I think we've all been subjected to

Caroline 56:59

Yeah. Yes.

Anne 57:01

but when Gunn unzips her dress a little bit, I wanted to murder him. That is so gross. It's like he wants her to use her sexuality to get

Caroline 57:10

Mm-hmm.

Anne 57:13

speaking of bad flirt, I interview the byproducts of promiscuous mothers" is things not to say on a date with a single mother, you know? oh, another thing I, being upset about missing the trailers was very relatable to me,

Caroline 57:25

Mm.

Anne 57:26

I was, mad at Kay for, like making light of that, because I wanna see the trailers too.

Caroline 57:29

But then I was like, I would much rather hang out at home than sit at a movie and not be able to talk

Anne 57:35

If you're going to a movie, you wanna be on time,

Caroline 57:37

Sure. Yes. I also don't wanna be, like, seated all the way in the front.

Anne 57:41

I mean, I don't think I've been to a movie where it's full in years, I'm not going to, like, opening nights of Marvel movies,

Caroline 57:47

I, um, what was the one we just watched that it was opening weekend and, I don't know if it was like the Super Mario movie or something like that

Anne 57:56

Mandalorian thing?

Caroline 57:57

Yes, it was Mandalorian and Grogu. that was opening weekend. And we were the second people in the theater, and I was like, "Thank God." And it was totally full.

Anne 58:05

Alert. Just kidding. Okay. I got very mad at Gun, too, when he tells her to stay in her lane, and he's so manipulative about the way he's, talking her out of doing interviews. What I asked you before was what did you think of the cat, the cat that she's feeding?

Caroline 58:21

Uh, well, as we all know, I'm not the best at subtext, so why don't you tell me what you thought?

Anne 58:26

I mean, it could just be playing into the lonely cat lady trope, But the fact that the cat doesn't come back, Like, she's feeding it, it's eating, and then the food goes rotten. I thought they were implying somebody in the neighborhood is mutilating and killing animals. Like, it's a precursor. Because they make it creepy. Like, it doesn't have to be creepy, but the music they're playing, the fact that she's in laundry basement. One of the times she do- she just is wearing her work shirt. Like, she doesn't put her pants on to go into the basement, and I was just like, gonna happen," And nothing

Caroline 58:51

And there's bugs in the can.

Anne 58:53

Which is like, decay, deterioration, death, right? Even if it's just a can of

Caroline 58:57

was assuming the cat died.

Anne 58:59

But how did it die? Did someone

Caroline 59:01

Yeah.

Anne 59:01

And again, had this show had the opportunity to go on for three more seasons, would we have found that there was a predator in her neighborhood and that was what that was leading to?

Caroline 59:08

Maybe a small child.

Anne 59:10

Yeah. Sometimes I had trouble understanding Wendy's objections. She's really mad when they get sent to Atlanta to focus on the child murders because it puts off an interview that they were planning, and she makes this disparaging comment about Holden being obsessed with child murderers. And I'm kind of like, "Well, yeah, one of these things is more pressing." if there is an actual child murderer happening, right?

Caroline 59:30

I think I would agree. So my current work, I am working with, an epidemiologist, and so, I've gotten a better understanding of, research process and, all of that. I think it's partly also about the precedent it sets, that, if you run off every time there's an active case, we will never actually get to a place where this becomes a credible approach to solving crime,

Anne 59:54

There are other people who can do that and are doing it. Maybe not that well,

Caroline 59:57

Right

Anne 59:58

well, do we wanna say anything else about the Atlanta child murderers? We've... Joey Potter's dad. Did you see that?

Caroline 1:00:03

I literally wrote down Joey Potter's dad is Chief Ring.

Anne 1:00:08

Yeah, it took me a few episodes to, figure it out. Like, I was watching it and I was like, "I know that guy," and then I was like I was so excited.

Caroline 1:00:13

I

Anne 1:00:13

So

Caroline 1:00:14

I immediately was like, "Oh, there's Joey Potter's dad."

Anne 1:00:18

in terms of criticism, there were some things I didn't like about it like, that whole cross scene where Holden's running and trying to get the cross done, it felt tonally out of place for me

Caroline 1:00:28

Totally. I wrote down what is with this weird cinematography happening for this march? I don't really understand what's happening here

Anne 1:00:35

it was like an action movie, you know, where you're seeing, like, the cross streets through and... I just, I didn't really like it, and I don't think that's based on anything. Douglas did talk about the red tape of trying to get the crosses and how horrendous that was to get anything done, but I don't think he was running trying to get the, I guess, IKEA crosses assembled and in place in time. one thing I'll give Holden, he cares. Whether for the right reasons, you know, or not, whether it's for his own ego or actually stopping the murderer, he's committed

Caroline 1:01:02

there was a point where you asked me, and I can't... Oh, I think it was just last time about Silence of the Lambs where you were like, do you think it was for her to have solved..."

Anne 1:01:12

at home? Yeah,

Caroline 1:01:12

There are moments where Holden makes me feel like it could be both. They're not as frequent as when it feels like he's hubris-oriented

Anne 1:01:21

Yeah. I thought it was interesting how from season one to season two it shifts to a slightly more victim-centered show, Because we are seeing the mothers.

Caroline 1:01:31

Yeah

Anne 1:01:32

very sad The other cop, the local cop, right, who applies for the job with the BSU but doesn't get it because nepo baby Greg gets the job. I think Holden says at one point, like, "Well, Black or white shouldn't matter." And he's like, "Well, it does," so just, again, that systemic stuff that is overlaying all this and the politics. you know, he says at one point the city doesn't provide the same level of services to all neighborhoods, and obviously that is still true, right?

Caroline 1:01:56

I also wrote that down as well that it's interesting, like I feel like especially with, going through anti-racism coaching and stuff like that, you learn so many things about institutional racism and systemic racism and the ways that people of color have been held back from opportunity. But not wanting to hire someone who's Black because the subjects might be racist was like a new avenue I hadn't even thought of you know, of preventing them from opportunity, you know?

Anne 1:02:23

Yeah, like you think about, was it Junior Pierce? The guy with, like, the mouth noises who was chewing the whole time.

Caroline 1:02:30

Mm-hmm.

Anne 1:02:33

he the Reese's Peanut Butter Cups. I mean, that is a, a question to ask. Would that guy open up to someone like the Black cop whose name I can't remember? he might be more likely to open up to Holden, I guess. So I don't

Caroline 1:02:45

I

Anne 1:02:45

But there was a... I think his name was Judd in real life. first Black profiler did get hired and did have a fantastic, effective career, so can be done. I guess like J- Jenna Monroe, who was... Or the fictional Clarice Starling, there are lots of killers out there and agents from different backgrounds, be it gender or race, and they'll have different insight, Even though, as we've said earlier, like, most of these killers are white men in their 20s and 30s, they're not all, right? So there was that guy that, Holden was interviewing that he had s- was totally scoffing at. But, that Black agent had more insight into him, and is probably, that guy's probably more likely to talk to him

Caroline 1:03:21

Right. you know, it's also the communities that the media and police tend to investigate after are the white victims, and so they're most often the white perpetrators

Anne 1:03:31

So yeah, I would say that it's not a good argument not to have profilers of different race and gender as they m- they tried back in the '70s to, like, reject that guy.

Caroline 1:03:39

Totally

Anne 1:03:40

let's talk about Wayne Williams. Extremely cordial and calm like Kemper, and a narcissist as well, thinks he's the smartest person in the room, not unlike Holden. he really committed to go big or go home with his indignation and outrage, like beeping at the mayor. And the press conferences, that was real. He actually did that

Caroline 1:03:58

So arrogant

Anne 1:03:59

I thought his recruitment method was interesting. so many women have been recruited with offers of modeling, but here he was offering a record deal,

Caroline 1:04:06

On his press conference too, sorry, I was just... I had a note here, he mentions it wasn't just hubris, it was strategic, and it just reminded me of all the Trump chaos that he causes,

Anne 1:04:17

get ahead of the story, make your accusations, And then you've muddied, muddied the

Caroline 1:04:21

And misdirection,

Anne 1:04:23

I thought it was interesting that that studio guy didn't suspect, okay, we've got 20-something kids missing, and you've got this guy coming in. I guess the thing is, like, because I know? about serial killers, and because this research has been done long before my time, I would be suspecting anyone hanging around kids in a weird way, right? But that wasn't known necessarily at the time

Caroline 1:04:42

Well, and I think your interest being in the subject matter, you might be out-sizing the influence of this subject matter being able to even penetrate the awareness of people going about their lives who, who like flowers.

Anne 1:04:56

Yeah. True. Yeah.

Caroline 1:05:00

Every time I see things like this or the, missing and murdered indigenous women and, Gilgo Beach and all of these categories of people who law enforcement seems to overlook, it always is just so depressing, and I just wish there was more justice that could be done for them. I don't know

Anne 1:05:18

unlike Co-Ed Killer, when you are targeting co-eds, world notices, So I think we need to talk about my MVP, Cameron Britton, Who played Ed Kemper. how good is he?

Caroline 1:05:30

he's incredible, and can I tell you, speaking of a way I could stop a conversation, so, my family, alternates between San Francisco and Texas for, Thanksgiving, and there was a time when we stayed in a Airbnb in Aptos, which is near Santa Cruz, and Aptos is actually the town that Ed Kemper's house is in, and I did take the rental car to go drive by the house to see it.

Anne 1:05:58

You crazy person. Wow

Caroline 1:06:00

just, because

Anne 1:06:02

very

Caroline 1:06:02

you kn-

Anne 1:06:03

It w- 'cause Herbert Mullin was there, and then there was some other guy, uh, at the same time who... as Ed Kemper, like, three

Caroline 1:06:09

The Pacific Northwest. It's the mecca.

Anne 1:06:11

fucked. Survival. Don't go to the Pacific Northwest.

Caroline 1:06:15

Which is like the place I wanna live

Anne 1:06:17

Yeah, I know.

Caroline 1:06:18

if I could live anywhere in the world

Anne 1:06:20

You know what? You know who else is there? Bigfoot. So don't go to the

Caroline 1:06:26

Yeah.

Anne 1:06:27

and don't go in the woods there.

Caroline 1:06:28

When I move out to the Pacific Northwest, you and Jillian and Pasha from TCO can come see me and we'll all scout Bigfoot

Anne 1:06:36

Or we can go thumping trees or whatever. So he's the show's sole Emmy nomination at least, or I, I don't know if it's sole, but he got an Emmy nomination for guest actor in a drama. I guess Ed Kemper is textbook, right? Because he was one of the first to be interviewed. We've got the fantasy life building up to it incrementally, the, horrible mother, the reality not living up to the fantasy, insinuating himself into the investigation, He was institutionalized in his formative years. He's the organized monster with the high IQ and the vile, depraved parallel life

Caroline 1:07:07

What I wonder about him and about all of these people is, I guess I have a bit of concern about the concept of an unreliable narrator in that we only have their word to go on to discuss his mother and how his mother treated him and the things his mother supposedly said to him and all of that. And as we all know, there's your story and my story and the truth or whatever for any given person. But for someone who's an extreme narcissist and depraved, is it a far leap to think that maybe they're, exaggerating things a little bit or hearing what they wanna hear? I mean, I know there's times when... And obviously I'm not saying my children are anything like Ed Kemper, but there, there are times that I'm like, "You didn't listen to me when I said blah, blah, blah," and my child acts as if I told them they were a piece of shit, you know?

Anne 1:07:57

Yeah, I've been tempted to be like, to my kids, "You don't know what abuse is."

Caroline 1:08:01

Yeah,

Anne 1:08:02

my,

Caroline 1:08:02

exactly.

Anne 1:08:03

will be like, "You didn't make me dinner last night." because I

Caroline 1:08:05

Yeah

Anne 1:08:06

yourself some toast." Like, and the outrage. She So he says she locked him in the basement at 10 because she was worried he was gonna rape his sister. Now, the question is, was he turned into this monster because he was isolated and abused and locked in that horrible basement, or was she right and she saw something was really off about this guy, and, knowing how early the fantasy starts, was she as bad a mother as he says? I mean,

Caroline 1:08:33

Yeah.

Anne 1:08:33

because this is textbook, right? A lot of these guys had abusive mothers, right?

Caroline 1:08:38

According to them

Anne 1:08:39

According to them. Yeah, maybe they hate women for a different reason and, yeah. So that would be an

Caroline 1:08:42

Right.

Anne 1:08:42

interesting

Caroline 1:08:43

so

Anne 1:08:43

to

Caroline 1:08:43

bizarre to assume they hate women for just no reason but hating women? Yeah.

Anne 1:08:50

I mean, he would vomit in reaction to women? you know, what would you do if you had a kid that you feared, uh, was going to do something to your sis- to your daughter, Right and a lot of the stuff he talks about, he... Again, I guess this is his words, right? As a child, he played gas chamber. he mutilated his sister's Barbies. He's a bit Sid from, uh, Toy Story. one of his most famous lines is, "One side of me says, 'Wow, what an attractive chick. I'd like to talk to her, date her.' The other side of me says, 'I wonder how her head would look on a stick.'" Which is just fucking chilling

Caroline 1:09:22

Oh, no. When is his birthday? Sorry, I'm just like... 'Cause

Anne 1:09:25

I know

Caroline 1:09:25

I'm a Gemini, and so often I'm like, "I have two people inside me." Anyway, I think too because, like, you wouldn't have the resources that you have today, To our earlier point about Nancy and the bedwetting or whatever. So like, what would you do if your child was like that?

Anne 1:09:41

And he's huge. Maybe it was Ressler or Douglas, that they thought his size contributed to his deviancy. because he felt so weird because he was so big, that, that contributed to his inability to socialize women.

Caroline 1:09:55

I know, and it, he could have just been like Stephen Merchant instead.

Anne 1:09:58

do that, right?

Caroline 1:09:59

Stephen Merchant's hilarious.

Anne 1:10:01

Yeah.

Caroline 1:10:02

He gave us The Office. That's a better route.

Anne 1:10:05

or be funny, right? murder people.

Caroline 1:10:07

Yeah. Yeah.

Anne 1:10:11

reluctance to make potential hitchhikers more comfortable getting in the car with him, and I did confirm that, I think, between Mindhunter and Last Podcast on the Left did an episode on him.

Caroline 1:10:19

Mm-hmm.

Anne 1:10:20

before 2015, so before the show. So I can say it is confirmed. I mean, Douglas says in the book, and we see this with Holden, he liked him, right? He was charming. He was pleasant. He was articulate, But that scene, that hug scene, that actually happened to Ressler, and it was in a prison. he basically, like the guards went away or something and... Or he rang for the guards who usually were supposed to come straight away, and they didn't come. And then he rang again, and they didn't come. that was when Kemper was like, guess what I could do right now?" And he didn't, he threatened it. And, All these people talk about how vulnerable you actually are in that moment because they have nothing to lose, and it could be a badge of honor. Like when Manson

Caroline 1:10:56

Mm-hmm.

Anne 1:11:00

okay, you go in the hole for a bit, but, a badge, in prison. I think it, it's interesting because we've talked in the past about how we don't wanna hear someone like Ted Bundy pontificate, on what

Caroline 1:11:09

Right.

Anne 1:11:10

And yet when Cameron Britton as Ed Kemper talks, like, I'm riveted,

Caroline 1:11:14

Yeah

Anne 1:11:15

I think it's the contrast that you get because, for example, in season one he describes, throwing his mother's vocal cords in the garbage disposal, and it's so tense the way he's discussing this. And then he shifts to this delight because he's like, "Oh, pizza."

Caroline 1:11:27

Hmm.

Anne 1:11:29

when writers say that a character let out a breath they didn't know they were holding, but I feel like it applies with his scenes.

Caroline 1:11:35

Wow.

Anne 1:11:36

He's still alive, 77. Did you know that he reads audiobooks or has read audiobooks? Yeah.

Caroline 1:11:42

What audiobook?

Anne 1:11:43

Flowers in the Attic for one. He read a bunch of V.C. Andrews, so you can probably find it. I thought about looking it up, and then I went, "Ooh, that's too creepy. I don't wanna hear him speak

Caroline 1:11:51

Hours in the Attic, isn't that the incest book?

Anne 1:11:54

Yep. And a

Caroline 1:11:55

What?

Anne 1:11:56

mother, so he

Caroline 1:11:57

Yeah,

Anne 1:11:57

to that book for a reason.

Caroline 1:12:00

And what about the father? the father's excused because he just wasn't around?

Anne 1:12:04

so it's like absent father, bad mother

Caroline 1:12:06

Right. Absent father isn't bad for being absent? Sorry.

Anne 1:12:10

Well, I think it's part of it.

Caroline 1:12:11

Yeah.

Anne 1:12:11

Who's the one he hates? His mom,

Caroline 1:12:13

his mom

Anne 1:12:13

right? Who's the one he blames? he beat his mother to death, cut off her head, and did things, humiliated her, so as bad as it gets, I think

Caroline 1:12:22

Yeah

Anne 1:12:23

regarding his height, once my nephew was little and my husband got into the car, and it was like a small car, he turned to his mom and said, "He grew too tall." And we say that about anyone who's, like, tall. We're like, "He grew too tall." like, little. It was so cute okay. We have been talking for a while now. what other characters or real-life killers would you like to discuss?

Caroline 1:12:46

I wanna declare that I find Charles Manson to be the most boring, uninteresting, overrated piece of shit. I have no patience for anything related to him. I've watched nothing. I've read nothing. I cannot stand him. I literally, my note is, "Charles Manson snore."

Anne 1:13:04

I

Caroline 1:13:05

I

Anne 1:13:05

Charles Manson phony baloney.

Caroline 1:13:08

Yeah, Not interested. next, you know?

Anne 1:13:11

I did listen to the podcast a while back, I think it was when we were preparing for Rosemary's Baby, on the Tate-LaBianca murders, and it was the season You Must Remember This on that. it's good because it's like this history of Hollywood at that time as well. But Yeah. He's a phony who just manipulated vulnerable

Caroline 1:13:27

Yeah.

Anne 1:13:27

teenagers

Caroline 1:13:28

He's opportunistic cult leader, and there are plenty of those. It is horrific what he did, and he should get no attention for it.

Anne 1:13:36

Yeah.

Caroline 1:13:36

his only motivation is the attention. It, there was no other gratification for him, so just don't give it to him.

Anne 1:13:43

sucks.

Caroline 1:13:46

Ugh.

Anne 1:13:46

I remember they

Caroline 1:13:47

He sucks.

Anne 1:13:48

Yeah. But there's plenty of sucky musicians who don't end up resulting in people getting murdered, Brutos. God, he's so gross. Not to kink But if you're murdering women and like cutting off their feet, that's not okay other than that moment where they're on the plane and that guy refuses to give up the middle seat between them, I think just, like, plonking on a bench to jerk off to the shoes is the most shocking moment of the show

Caroline 1:14:12

Yeah

Anne 1:14:13

I think I texted you about this, but like within a week of watching Jerry Brudos jerk off to those black shoes, a friend of mine was like, "I have these shoes that don't fit. Does anyone want them?" I was like, "Sure." And she dropped them off at my house, and they're like black, shiny, pointy shoes, and I was like, Jerry Brudos jerk off shoes." again, mommy issues, She wanted a girl. He was into shoes from a very young age. She burned them, right? So again, not an excuse, Oh, the other shocking moment was Speck, he throws his bird into the fan. That was so sad Reminded me of The Green Mile. There's a character on death row who keeps a mouse,

Caroline 1:14:43

Yes.

Anne 1:14:44

that character is not a complete sociopath who would murder that mouse given the opportunity

Caroline 1:14:49

But he grew too much.

Anne 1:14:51

He grew too tall. Uh, Son of Sam, he's another phony baloney,

Caroline 1:14:55

Yeah.

Anne 1:14:56

the demon dog. a lab being evil. Come on.

Caroline 1:15:00

I know

Anne 1:15:01

Do you remember when the hell ho- i- in, What We Do in the Shadows, and there's, like, and it's a golden retriever?

Caroline 1:15:07

Oh yeah.

Anne 1:15:08

that reminded me of that. But also anger directed at women. in Whoever Fights Monsters, Russell recounts Son of Sam saying that if he'd been able to find a good woman, he wouldn't have killed people. baby

Caroline 1:15:19

Incel

Anne 1:15:20

Incel. I hate, hate, hate that Incel entitlement, like blaming women because your personality sucks. if anyone is willing to overlook looks, it's women, Right. Like, you can... If you're a good person, you can find a girlfriend. So

Caroline 1:15:32

Ugh

Anne 1:15:33

I appreciate when Wendy says, "Really, he's just a dumpy, awkward mailman." Yeah.

Caroline 1:15:38

Yeah. I have been feeling a little self-conscious about how, like, man-haty we get on this podcast, I do wanna say it should say a lot that we are both very happily married people who, really love our husbands, and so it's not like we hate all men, And we have sons

Anne 1:15:53

I think when you have a good husband and you can see that men can be wonderful, it's like all the harder to accept all the hate and misogyny

Caroline 1:16:03

it's just a sign of the fact that we don't think that you should just be entitled to me because you were born identifying as a man with a penis. just, you I don't know.

Anne 1:16:12

It's... we don't hate all men. We

Caroline 1:16:15

No.

Anne 1:16:16

We just want them to be better and not kill us.

Caroline 1:16:18

Yeah.

Anne 1:16:19

ask?

Caroline 1:16:19

Yeah, we would just love them to not feel like they deserve a woman just by being. Yeah.

Anne 1:16:25

You do better and you'll get a girlfriend. Come on. All right, Most upsetting or scary or horrifying moment. Speck's bird. That was sad.

Caroline 1:16:34

the part where I... Yeah, the part where I, like, audibly was like, "Ugh," is 'cause I think, you know, a lot of this other stuff feels much more abstract even though it's all real. But the moment of being in a professional setting and being hit on in such a gross and aggressive m- and relentless manner And then also, watching all of those mothers, not get answers about what happened to their children, that, that also, was upsetting at a level that, like, I wouldn't even wanna discuss it at length because it's that upsetting,

Anne 1:17:03

Another upsetting moment is seeing Greg, nepo baby Greg, listening to something. I was like, "What is he listening to?" I looked it up. Bittaker and Norris basically would torture teenage girls to death and record it. And so he's listening not just to an interview, he's listening to somebody dying of torture, and I'm glad they didn't play it. my most upsetting moment is getting a hug from Ed Kemper. When he puts his feet on the ground and they're, like, so loud and forceful and heavy, and you just feel his physical presence, and then he's... moves so quickly to block Holden's exit. Oh my God. I was having, like, a sympathy panic attack.

Caroline 1:17:39

Yeah, he does move very quickly.

Anne 1:17:40

for a big guy. For a guy who grew too tall, he moves pretty quickly. was horrifying All right, horror beneath the surface. Obviously misogyny and the compulsion certain men have, whether it's because their mothers harm them or something that was born within them. know, when Debbie asks Holden about Kemper, like, "Why does he hate women?" Why do so many men hate women? Not all men, but there's little more dangerous than a sexually jilted, rage-filled, inadequate man

Caroline 1:18:06

Mm-hmm. I

Anne 1:18:06

the sociopaths among us. Holden asks, I think at one point, "How do you get to become president of the United States if you're a sociopath?" And Wendy responds, "The question is how do you if you're not?" And I think we can see that at play

Caroline 1:18:18

wrote that down too.

1:18:19

Another deeper horror is the randomness. Uh, one of the killers, I think it was Specs, says it just wasn't their night, so that's scary

Caroline 1:18:26

For me it's really like the idea of a vaccine is so beautiful but not possible,

Anne 1:18:33

You mean a vaccine against killers as like a real thing as opposed to

Caroline 1:18:36

Yeah.

Anne 1:18:36

for intervention?

Caroline 1:18:39

I think, some of the points we've made here about the tickling, for example, like a lot of times, and we've made this point before, especially when Jillian was on and we talked about women who go to get help before something has occurred, and it's like you actually can't get help until you've already been traumatized or assaulted. And then that trauma becomes the hurt people hurt people concept. then you as a hurt person, produce children, and those children are hurt people and, you know, like it's just, it's impossible. It's impossible. Mm-hmm

Anne 1:19:07

Intergenerational trauma, yeah.

1:19:10

Wrestler opens up his book with, "Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back at you." in our last episode on Silence of the Lambs, we touch on the fact that paramedics sacrifice their mental health and safety. In Whoever Fights Monsters, Ressler talks about health problems, weight loss, mental health issues. John Douglas starts his book with an account of his time in a coma, which was exacerbated by the extreme stress he was under and all the travel.

Caroline 1:19:38

Right

1:19:39

In the show, we see Tench call up a detective he'd worked with only to find out he'd died by suicide. So they're definitely showing us the mental, emotional, physical impact.

Caroline 1:19:48

Mm.

Anne 1:19:48

Douglas talks about in real life, he had kids, and, you know, he talks about being really such a dick to his family because if, like, his kids got hurt, he would, in his mind, he would be like, "Well, I was just looking at photos Of... a nine-year-old getting raped and murdered." You know, and, like, he couldn't cope in normal situations. He'd get bored, talking to people at barbecues, for example.

Caroline 1:20:07

Of...

Anne 1:20:07

he really struggled to be just, like, a normal person outside of this. and, like, letting your kids have freedom. he knows kids need freedom, but having seen what he's seen, he's like, "You don't wanna take your eyes off of them."

Caroline 1:20:18

Mm-hmm.

Anne 1:20:19

the institute- institutionalization of children. a lot of these killers were institutionalized, and I think that's important comment on. For example, here in Queensland, there's this big move here from the Right adult crime, adult time. And I truly believe that is kicking the can down the road because throwing kids in jail is more likely to make them into a future criminal than to stop them, and, you know, at the end of Mindhunter, Douglas, it's kind of cheesy, but he's like, "We just need more love," right? In addition to better policing and an army of social workers, these people did not come from happy childhoods. And obviously not everyone from an unhappy childhood goes on to do this, but more love can't hurt.

Caroline 1:20:57

Right

Anne 1:20:57

and I guess I just ask myself, like, how do they do it? I know academically, intellectually, like it has been explained to me, but Wendy says, "Truly imagine what it takes to bludgeon someone to death," and I just, I just can't. How, how do they do it to each other? How can your brain be that badly broken that you'd make these choices? let's see. I do have one minor question for you. Who's scarier, organized or Disorganized,

Caroline 1:21:18

Disorganized, 'cause it's random

Anne 1:21:20

I think disorganized are the ones around now because, the organized killers are likely either be so good that we're not gonna catch them, or they've gotten picked up after their first one or two, right?

Caroline 1:21:30

Right.

Anne 1:21:31

of the investigation techniques. But being the first victim of a disorganized killer who takes that moment to live out his fantasy, that scares me

Caroline 1:21:38

Mm-hmm

Anne 1:21:40

Do you have any questions?

Caroline 1:21:41

Why did you get canceled? No, I

Anne 1:21:43

That's

Caroline 1:21:43

know why. Criticism. Dave Fincher, get your shit together.

Anne 1:21:47

Come back. so many questions. What's up with the cat? Where were they going with BTK? Tench's kid, you know?

Caroline 1:21:53

Bundy.

Anne 1:21:53

Come back. Bundy.

Caroline 1:21:55

I wanna see Bundy.

Anne 1:21:56

mean, there's so many... You could

Caroline 1:21:57

Yeah.

Anne 1:21:58

with this.

Caroline 1:21:59

So many

Anne 1:22:00

only advantage is it's like this perfect unfinished but preserved jewel. there's So many shows that fail by the end, and it never got that chance.

Caroline 1:22:08

I'm glad it didn't become a Lost or a How I Met Your Mother or whatever else, that people were so devastated by the end of Game of Thrones, all of that. But two still feels like a robbery.

Anne 1:22:20

Okay. Survival, what do we learn?

Caroline 1:22:22

Well, I was curious about the it's 10:30, do you know where your children are aspect of survival, and I did look it up, and where did it start or come from? And it came after the New York City riots in 1968 sorry, the riots were in '67, so in '68 to ease public tension about, the potential for this kind of thing to occur again. They started asking that, and then it sort of spread. So I thought that was interesting.

Anne 1:22:44

I

Caroline 1:22:44

when it's 10:30,

Anne 1:22:46

they were like, What?

Caroline 1:22:47

Yeah.

Anne 1:22:47

a thing on the news. Like,

Caroline 1:22:49

I know. also, do you store your glasses... How do you store your glasses in your cabinet? upside down or right side up?

Anne 1:22:56

Nah, I do right side up? I think I've heard you should do upside down, right?

Caroline 1:22:59

Yeah, I do it upside down. I've always done it upside down.

Anne 1:23:01

drink so many drinks and get a new glass every time, believe me, nothing's staying in there long. I

Caroline 1:23:06

Yeah.

Anne 1:23:06

through every glass we have pretty close to daily, so dust is not accumulating

Caroline 1:23:10

I was gonna say another tip for survival, store your glasses upside down. You don't need the dust or whatever going in there.

Anne 1:23:17

that kill you?

Caroline 1:23:18

You know, you could get sick. don't know

Anne 1:23:21

Um, I was thinking more of the line, along the lines of watch out for offers that are too good to be true, like Wayne Williams looking for the next Michael Jackson, then don't drink dust.

Caroline 1:23:30

Well, if you don't wanna be obtuse about things, I can't help

Anne 1:23:35

But yeah, you're probably not get a modeling contract from a guy who approaches you on the street. yeah, don't... Between this and Silence of the Lambs, like,

Caroline 1:23:43

you. Don't go into criminal profiling.

Anne 1:23:47

don't trust these guys if you are interviewing them. Like Clarice should not assume she's safe from Hannibal Lecter, Holden shouldn't assume he's safe with Ed Kemper just because he can be charming

Caroline 1:23:56

This is also a lesson in Interview with the Vampire. Don't assume just because you're interviewing someone that they're gonna...

Anne 1:24:02

yes. Good one.

Caroline 1:24:04

Thank you. I made a horror reference.

Anne 1:24:06

yeah, I'm, I'm impressed.

Caroline 1:24:08

Thank you. Wait, did you ask about criticism?

Anne 1:24:11

yes. Didn't I

Caroline 1:24:12

I think maybe you did, and I just found one in my notes. I'm sorry.

Anne 1:24:16

that it got canceled.

Caroline 1:24:17

Yes, sorry. I had one more. There is a scene where they're in a hotel room and there's beds on the opposite sides of the room facing towards each other. the feet are facing towards each o- each other on the opposite sides of the room. I have never seen a room designed that way. I can't imagine how that would ever happen.

Anne 1:24:35

Bad things, right? More survival tips from Caroline.

Caroline 1:24:37

Yeah.

Anne 1:24:39

in terms of survival, love your kids. Moms are important. Don't lock them in the basement.

Caroline 1:24:44

Dads are important too. Stick around, dads.

Anne 1:24:47

Don't let someone tie you up. Assume if someone wants to tie you up, it's not for a good reason. Fight it. Better to get shot then and there than brought somewhere else, tortured, raped, and murdered, I think

Caroline 1:24:56

Same for a second location. I always think about that Bundy victim who, like, they pulled up next to the cop, and he was like, "Don't say anything."

Anne 1:25:02

take your

Caroline 1:25:03

if she had screamed... Yeah, take your chance

Anne 1:25:05

Lock your doors, don't hitchhike, which you said it's not that bad a while back

Caroline 1:25:09

cause there was a Wine and Crime episode where they talked about statistically it is really not actually that dangerous, but not recommended. Bring your mace with you.

Anne 1:25:17

Not if you're one of Ed Kemper's victims. Don't give a sociopath a polygraph. Over and over again, Douglas is like, these damn cops polygraphied him, and, like, sociopaths can beat it. that's it, I think, I have for survival. anything else you wanna talk about?

Caroline 1:25:30

Oh, I made one other note that said I love a screw-top bottle of wine. I think they mentioned that when they skipped the movie, but I agree.

Anne 1:25:37

oh, a shout out to Eric Morris, who is one of the, he's the dad who's upset about the tickling.

Caroline 1:25:43

Eric Morris who we went to college with?

Anne 1:25:45

Yeah, did you not recognize him? He's the

Caroline 1:25:47

No.

Anne 1:25:48

And Yeah, so a guy we went to college with is in this. Isn't that exciting? Good for him

Caroline 1:25:52

now that you said that, I remember having known that the first time, but I didn't recognize him this time. But hi, Eric. Hope you're doing well.

Anne 1:26:00

this Yeah, he is. He's been in other things too. You see him pop up from time to time.

Caroline 1:26:03

Okay. I

Anne 1:26:04

All right, Palate cleanser

Caroline 1:26:05

Okay, I feel like people are gonna be sick of me, but my middle child decided they wanted to go through the MCU saga. So... No, my middle child hasn't, I went through it with my husband, and my oldest has been through it, but my middle child never did. So we watched Iron Man Iron Man 2 and Thor, I just so, so love the MCU. It's so good. It's so, so fun. I have no bad things to say about it, so I just wanted to recommend that again. I, I know I've re- recommended...

Anne 1:26:38

from scratch again.

Caroline 1:26:40

With your family, do it

Anne 1:26:41

we've been introducing our kids to Stranger Things, and it's great fun. Introducing people to things you love is one of the greater joys in life

Caroline 1:26:47

It is, And I just started listening to, that podcast I had mentioned before of That Aged Well the episode I'm listening to now is covering Little Shop, which we've discussed on this podcast before. That is one of my favorite all time. if you don't wanna go through an entire 20-something movie saga, maybe just watch Little Shop

Anne 1:27:06

could watch homework assignment, which is a movie I love and I hope you will love as well, The Black Phone with Ethan Hawke. It is based on the Joe Hill short story from Century Ghosts, the link to this is it is about a serial killer in the '70s. We are continuing our basement series, who has abducted a kid and puts him in a basement. But don't worry, it has a happy ending Okay. Recommendations. What do you have to recommend to go along with this?

Caroline 1:27:35

So there is a documentary called Tickled. Um, I've actually never watched the documentary, but I have listened to the Dollop episode multiple times on the documentary, so I wanted to recommend both. There's also a sleep hy- hypnosis documentary called Look into My Eyes that is about a principal who was doing sleep hypnosis on students, and some of them died as a result. Yeah, so wanted to recommend that. in terms of the, arrogance as well that we were talking about of, what's his face, the Atlanta child murderer.

Anne 1:28:13

Williams

Caroline 1:28:13

Wayne Williams and his arrogance reminded me of a new documentary that has come out recently called The Crash. it is all the rage here in the US currently, but I know this episode is gonna come out a little bit later. But if you haven't watched it, please do watch The Crash, and I also recommend the Hulu docuseries, Mean Girl Murders. they have an episode on it as well, and they give a lot more detail on that, crime as well in that. There's also a documentary called Inside the Manosphere that has come out pretty recently. I didn't actually have the ability, like, the stomach ability, to watch the entire thing the whole way through, but my husband did, and it's important to understand incel culture. And then, on the fun side of things, the mention of hubris made me think several times of a show that also was canceled that I loved called The League, about a fantasy football league. It's a comedy. It's, like, 30 minutes. Nick Kroll is in it, it's very, very good. And Paul Scheer, of Unspooled.

Anne 1:29:13

They're both hilarious, Yeah,

Caroline 1:29:15

so they have a song called Vaginal Hubris in that series, so that's what made me think of it. And then they mention the phrase disturbing behavior, which is one of my favorite, like, silly horrors from the '90s. So wanted to recommend that,

Anne 1:29:28

With Joey Potter.

Caroline 1:29:29

Joey Potter, whose dad is in it. Yeah.

Anne 1:29:31

Yes. So Watch Dawson's Creek

Caroline 1:29:32

Yes.

Anne 1:29:33

Well,

Caroline 1:29:34

it?

Anne 1:29:34

we try to limit ourselves to roughly an hour and a half, and we've gone over that, if you wanna hear more people talking about Mindhunter, I recommend, Real Crime Profile. They've got, I don't know, seven or eight episodes on this. Also, True Crime Garage and Mindhunter Companion. I did not listen to these, but they exist, so if you wanna hear m- people talking about the show more, check those out. Obviously, the books, Mindhunter and Whoever Fights Monsters, and, Ann Burgess has quite a few books out as well. I'm hoping I'll get one of those eventually. If this is the first time you've caught us, go back and listen to some of our past episodes, but especially Silence of the Lambs, which we covered most recently. Holden walking through Gen Pop was very reminiscent of Clarice approaching Dr. Lecter's cell. So many c- connections to this. 1984 and Minority Report for the exploration of crime prediction with, like, thought police and precogs. For more FBI agents, Twin Peaks and X-Files.

Caroline 1:30:24

Mm-hmm.

Anne 1:30:25

halls of the Quantico basement reminded me of liminal spaces, and the movie Backrooms has just come out. I haven't seen it yet, but I think it connects. okay, so in Season 1, they mention that Herbert Mullins killed people to prevent an earthquake, and that is basically the plot of Cabin at the End of the World, which stars Jonathan Groff. So That's a horror movie with him that you could check out these people kinda show up at their cabin and are like, murder has to happen to prevent the end of the world." for sociopathic children, We Need to Talk About Kevin. that's a really good literary fiction. if you want something that's a little bit more fun, fairly predictable page-turner, I just read Freida The Perfect Son, has a similar premise. cops drinking in bars always reminds me of The Wire. Also, the politics, of the Atlantic Chi- Atlanta child murders in terms of, like, not wanting to admit happening in terms of the crime rate. True Detective for another clash of values and methods detectives. And for characters with mommy issues, Psycho. That's it? for me.

Caroline 1:31:22

Since you mentioned two places that I have pets named after, I just wanted to mention a third, 'cause you mentioned Twin Peaks and X-Files, which I have two of my three pets are named after, and the third is Archer.

Anne 1:31:32

Okay. Archer. I've never seen that All right. Well, thank you for listening. If you have any recommendations for TV shows, podcasts, books, movies that would go along with this or that you'd like us to cover in the future, please contact us. We are available on Instagram, Facebook, and Threads. Follow us there, and then do all the things podcasters ask you to do: like and subscribe, review us. You can email us at drawntodarknesspod@gmail.com. And most importantly, please tell a like-minded friend who is also drawn to darkness. And if like Shirley Jackson, you delight in what you fear, join us in a week or two at Drawn to Darkness. Special shout out to Nancy Ano who painted our cover art. You can find her on Instagram at Nancy ano and to Harry Kidd for our intro and outro music. You can find him on Instagram at Harry J. Kidd and on Spotify.