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Snitchin
Episode 62: The One with "Untamed" by Glennon Doyle with Stef and Gina
A Halloween book club with Stef and Gina turns from front-row Hamilton luck to the deeper work of trusting intuition. We unpack Untamed by Glennon Doyle, a book that challenges women to look inward to find happiness and purpose.
• Recap of our front row night seeing Hamilton in Boston
• Untamed book club overview
• Talking about the opening caged cheetah metaphor and how society cages women with "good girl conditioning"
• How to trust your intuition to find happiness, not outside sources
• Meditation myths and how to find your intuition
• Parenting, modeling freedom, and raising sensitive boys
For more info about "Untamed" click here
Listen to Glennon's podcast, "We Can Do Hard Things" here
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Ready?
SPEAKER_02:Ready? Hey everyone. Welcome back to the latest episode of Snitchin. It's your host, Kristen.
SPEAKER_01:And Brittany, get ready for the best part of your day.
SPEAKER_02:And we're so excited because not only is this a Halloween episode, our first inaugural Halloween episode. Oh yeah. But uh it's an even better Halloween episode because we are joined by two of our favorites, Steph and Gina here for our latest book club. We read Untamed by Glenn and Doyle. We're gonna be breaking it all down for you. This was a great book with some really, really interesting themes and topics. So if you didn't read it, have no fear. Um, there's just some interesting things to talk about within it that we think are the snitches, the snitches are gonna love. Um, but first, full transparency. Uh Britt, Gina, and I went to Hamilton last night. It was so much fun. First of all, well, I guess welcome Steph and G. Hey. Okay.
SPEAKER_03:Hi, good morning.
SPEAKER_02:You guys know them. Stitches guys know them.
SPEAKER_03:That's all right.
SPEAKER_02:Um, so the three of us are doing our best early this morning, you know, to to keep the the vibes high, but we did have a late night because Hamilton was just so great. Didn't you guys love the show?
SPEAKER_01:It's so good. We had a little too much fun at Hamilton, didn't get home until 1 a.m.
SPEAKER_00:This is your guys' second time altogether seeing it or third time because I know, or how many do you know how many times have you seen it? Five. Five.
SPEAKER_03:And I saw it back the first time I saw it was in 2015 in New York when it came out, right when the original guest left. Right.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's cool. I can't believe it's been 10 years.
SPEAKER_01:That's crazy to me.
SPEAKER_00:I know, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And I think I've seen it like three or four times now. I can't remember. Wow, wow. Well, I've watched the movie like twice, probably. Yeah. I listened to the soundtrack.
SPEAKER_02:I gotta say, we've got some good karma coming our way because last night worked out very well. And so we met for dinner at 5 p.m. The show is at 7 p.m. And Gina, what is the like what is Lucky Tickets? What is it that you're a part of that got these tickets? Lucky.
SPEAKER_03:And if they draw you, you get to go, and you get two tickets for like much cheaper. So the tickets I got were ten dollars each.
SPEAKER_02:Two ten dollar Hamilton tickets that she got last week.
SPEAKER_01:Front row.
SPEAKER_02:Front row, baby. We pull up there and we're like, we see the tickets as AA. We're like, oh great, okay, orchestra, AA, but like not really thinking. We're getting closer, we're getting closer. By the time the usher shows us our seats, we're like, what?
SPEAKER_01:It is like a different experience, too, because like you can see like their face, you know.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, did you feel like you were a part of the show? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that. So exciting. Especially with a show that you've seen a lot before, like you were familiar with it. Like, because sometimes being in the front row can change the perspective, like you don't get to take in the whole show in what in a way. But when you've already seen the show and know the show, like what a special treat to be in it and immerse in that way.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was so cool. I think one of the things I realized I didn't really realize before was just how much they like incorporate the songs throughout the entire show. Like they'll reference back to others old songs that they already sang multiple times throughout the show. I mean, yeah. I don't know if I ever really like honed in on that. Really? I know.
SPEAKER_01:That's my favorite part.
SPEAKER_02:No, I know. I don't know. I like the whole time I'm watching that, and the second half, I'm thinking to myself, I'm like, how did you never notice this before? Like, it's like a major part of the show.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I think it's kind of by design that you don't notice it, to be honest with you. I think that's like a sign of a really well-written show because this is a show where the storyline and the plot is getting more delivered through songs. Like sometimes in musicals, songs are there to enhance like the emotion or like a small little plot point around like two people coming together or their inner worlds. But Hamilton really is like pretty much a sung-through show. So there's not like a ton of script or dialogue, but the music is really like guiding your story. So if they are not referencing it, right? Like you would miss it's like necessary to re-reference it because it's like part of what dialogue might be or like moments.
SPEAKER_02:Totally.
SPEAKER_00:But the fact that you're not realizing it is like so, you know, is like from my perspective at least, feels like the quality of a really well-written show because you are so in that world that you're not recognized that you don't have to recognize, oh, that was a song lyric. It's like actually just a theme or a message or a point or a moment, you know?
SPEAKER_01:You're like, oh, I know this part.
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_02:Right, yes, right. But wait, can I also just say front row living? Okay, I don't know if you two were thinking this because you know, you're happily married. I was sitting there thinking legit, I'm like, oh my god, which one of the dancers were cute? Which one of the dancers were cute? Okay. Also at that. No, but I also was like, oh my god, are they can they see us? Because front row, they can like see your face. Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So I definitely made eye contact. There was like it reminded me a lot of front row reputation.
SPEAKER_02:Totally. Yes. But I was like, is this where I meet my husband? Basically, is what was going through my mind. I'm like, am I gonna make eye contact with these dancers? Are they gonna sing this Hamilton song to me? And like, are they gonna ask for me to take a photo with them after the show? And then is that what how we're gonna fall in love and like end up together? Like legit entire movie scene went through my mind. Sometimes I'd love to be in your brain. Wow, it's a lot of place.
SPEAKER_00:Well, Kristen, what you're doing there is like you're actually entering the they're you're actually entering their show and you're becoming their scene partner. So a lot of like what it's called. So like a lot of when the audio when the actors can see and connect, there are certain moments in a show where it's like you become a part of that, and like whatever you're giving is feeding whatever they're doing. So you're like really in it with them. But yeah.
SPEAKER_02:The reason the show was so great was because we were making eyes at the actors, yeah, is what we're saying.
SPEAKER_00:I think that that really does change the experience. I had an experience like that with Jersey Boys. I was sitting in the second row, and it was the same guy who was in the original Dan from Next to Normal. He was in Jersey Boys first. And at the song, which is Who Loves You Pretty Mama, he was literally, I was like, you know, everyone's clapping along, and he we were literally like dancing together. And I mean, I was like 15, so and he was like, I guess like in his early 30s at the time. So like it was, you know, the the fantasy only went so far, but it was but it, I mean, I like literally then Jersey Boys all of a sudden became my favorite musical. And it's like, of course, I like Jersey Boys and I like the music, but it was really that moment that made it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I uh feel okay. So I the one thing I don't like about Broadway is that like everyone's so quiet and still. And it's very hard for me to be still. Like I just I can't it like it, it would take everything in me, like all of my focus and energy to not move and watch Hamilton. Like I just have to be like, but then I was like, you know what? These guys on the stage, like they're they I would love to see someone like me, like jamming out to it in the front row. Like that would give me energy. So I was like, you know, I think it's okay to like, you know, down. Do a little wiggle. Yeah, I totally agree. Both of the words. Yeah, not bad.
SPEAKER_02:I did look down at the front row seats at one point, because you know, just taking it all in, and I did notice that there wasn't a lot of people. There was one woman who was like on the other side who was just smiling, beaming, smile the whole time. Did you notice her? Yes, I looked too, and like everyone else was kind of, I know everyone was enjoying it, but everyone else, like they didn't really have um any expression on their face. And I was like, man, this cast must love this lady. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I think that that's like what I like about Broadway as opposed to like a concert is I like the orderliness of it that people are in seats and it's like contained and people aren't like, you know, eating hot dogs and all this bullshit. But at the same time, that is like it is, it does like kind of stuff, it can stifle expression. And I really think if you ever get the chance to see a show that has like a really diverse cast and you're in an audience with a lot of diversity, and like for example, I saw Purpose on Broadway, which was amazing, all black cast written by a, you know, a black, a black writer, black team. Most of the audience was people of color. And culturally, the expressions and what was happening in a play, I mean, I felt like it it changed the whole game. I mean, there was noises and audible reactions and gasps, and like everyone was involved in it. And I was just like, wow, this just is like doesn't happen with like mostly white tourist audiences, especially in New York. It's just like everyone is so contained, and it was like such a fucking breath of fresh air to be in an audience and in a show where people were really allowing themselves to respond to like this that was happening on stage.
SPEAKER_02:It was great, totally. It's like Broadway is like the gulf of like performances. It's like you know, people kind of came in.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, that's which sucks, you know.
SPEAKER_02:But it was still a great show. We love it.
SPEAKER_03:I have a question for you. Okay, yes, which I just still have been thinking about. Could you could you pick your top three songs, just like Broadway in general?
SPEAKER_02:Not shows, it's Broadway songs. Just like could I pick them?
SPEAKER_00:Yes, I'm sure I could still think about it. I'm sure I could. But it would, I would I would have to think about it. I don't know if I could do it off the top of my head because you know it we'll come back to the house.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, we'll come back. I've settled on poor good from Wicked's Up There Oh yeah, and then there's one in Next to Normal that's like at the end, but I can't think of what it's called. Light What about something from Rent? You love Rent. I know, but I don't know that I don't know yet.
SPEAKER_00:Mine are all from Hamilton, so well, I think mine, I would definitely I think from the shows, I can label the shows. It would be something from next to normal, spring awakening, and uh this is the third one, I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_01:All right, you have 24 hours to get back to us.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, let's know. Okay, I will.
SPEAKER_02:The countdown's on.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um let's talk about the book. Yeah, let's talk about it. Gina's like, let's not talk about the book. Gina's like, let's keep talking about Broadway. Go ahead, Steph. Muse about your favorites.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, like then we can go into what are your favorite plays, what are your favorite music? No, this is we were like dying to talk about it last night.
SPEAKER_01:We were trying not to because it's like better when you it's like fresh, but there's a lot to talk about.
SPEAKER_02:There's a lot to talk about. And spoiler alert, one of us might not have liked the book quite as much as the rest. Take a guess on who it is.
SPEAKER_03:To anyone on this call, or listening. Or listening.
SPEAKER_02:Oh my gosh. Well, let's get into it. So the book was called Untamed by Glennon Doyle. So Glenn and memoir. It's a memoir. Yeah. So she's an American author, she's a queer activist. She was an author before she wrote this book. But really, what this is about is like finding her, I don't know, maybe inner purpose. Um, as she's falling in love with her now wife, uh former soccer player, Abby Wombach. And um, she was married at the time with three children. She divorced her husband as she was falling in love with Abby. And it's really like her memoir about that experience and coming into her own, and really how she found happiness and purpose.
SPEAKER_00:Would you say that's like a decent overview? Yeah, I would say that this is a book that's memoir/slash thought leadership. I wasn't really following Glennon before this, so I can't, I can't know how much thought leadership was or how much of she identified as a thought leader prior to this book. But I know that from a basic, you know, social sociological perspective, like this book really put her on the map as like a thought leader that people really wanted to hear then what she had to say about how to navigate life and stress. And then this podcast came out of we can do hard things. And now I would identify her more as like this, you know, yeah, a thought leader.
SPEAKER_02:I think that's totally fitting. And what's interesting too, I'm seeing it now on Wikipedia. This book came out 2020. So publication date, March 10th, 2020, two days before. Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_01:It was Reese Weatherspoon's April 2020 book uh for her book club.
SPEAKER_02:So interesting time for it to come out for sure. I'm sure people loved reading this in such like a crazy angle-orienting time.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I feel like everything's still like held, you know. There's nothing I would be like, oh, she would say that differently post-COVID or something. Oh, totally.
SPEAKER_02:And so the way that she writes it is she does it in three parts. And what we're gonna do is kind of talk through some of the themes for each part. Um, part one is called Caged. Quick overview. She really like the whole setup for this part is this metaphor that she talks about, where she is discussing this caged cheetah called Tabitha. And basically how, like, you know, if you're a caged animal, Tabitha, she's kind of like walking the periphery of the zoo and she does the same routine every single day. And but yet she's like kind of wandering the yeah, the periphery of the zoo. So she Glenn is wondering what else is out there. Yeah, wondering what else is out there, kind of knows, even though she's never experienced a different life than the zoo life, internally, her wildness, like she knows there's something else out there. So she kind of introduces the the this part with that metaphor of people who feel caged in life.
SPEAKER_00:Can I add something? Of course. I think also there, she's also talking about like the natural wild instinct, right? That's like that is present in all of us, like right, that is present, even though that animal has been, we could say domesticated, even though I don't think that's quite the right word, but domesticated, you know, because they have the tapit that lived a life in the zoo. Um, it doesn't necessarily change the wild instincts that she has in her already. Um, and there's like this tension between externally what my what my limitations are, what this world looks like for me versus what it feels like inside. Totally.
SPEAKER_02:Well, let's start there. Like, what did we, yeah, what did you guys think of like the cheetah analogy of how, you know, what we everything we're talking about here. Like, was there anything that you feel like resonated with just your experience and your experience like being a woman and the constraints that women face?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I mean, I feel like it was a spot on. I thought like one of my favorite parts of the book, I feel like was like she's very good at metaphors and like putting everything into a metaphor, which I feel like the cheetah was like spot on. She talked about like the ache or something. It's like, you know, like you're like something's like missing. I'm doing all the right things, like I'm I'm being good and I'm doing everything I'm supposed to, but like I'm not totally satisfied. That makes sense. Not enough. Yeah. So yeah, I thought that was interesting. And it I definitely feel like it's true that it's women are taught specifically to be like, we grow up like learning how to please and like forget who we are, you know, and please everyone else and think about everyone else. I mean, that's how I live my life.
SPEAKER_00:Right. So this is where she talks about that good girl conditioning, right? So specifically around women, right? This idea that, yeah, we have all of these rules and norms that are put on us, and and it's so pervasive in this culture that you have no choice, right? Because if like one of our primal needs, right, one of our universal needs is like love and belonging, right? We're all gonna find whatever we figure out to be the best and most efficient strategies to get that, right? And being a good girl, being quiet, being non-confrontational, making people happy, being easy to be around is the easiest way to be the most likable person in the room. And though, what is the cost of self for that? I mean, I've perpetually still feel like, I mean, it's gotten better as I've gotten older, but I perpetually feel like uh a caged, a caged cheetah, you know, like I when I in meditations or in my own processing of just this like I just want to be free. But then there is the reminder of like sometimes I hear like a quiet voice that's like, but you are free, you know, like you act, you are actually you know, you actually do get to choose this, unlike poor Tabitha, you know.
SPEAKER_02:I definitely feel like that. I feel like Britt, when we started this podcast, that was like one of the first things we said, is we feel like that that caged cheetah where it's like, you know, you are just going through the motions, you're going through your day-to-day, like Tabitha, the cheetah is. She's doing her routine every single day. Um, and a lot of times we don't even like stop to like question it. We're just going through it. But like yet, like that cheetah, like I feel like we've all talked about is this it? Like, is this all that there really is once you get to adulthood? Like, is there nothing else out there? There's that like innate dissatisfaction that so many people feel. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Well, I think that is like when I remember the first time I came on the podcast and when I heard you guys were doing this, I was so, so unbelievably excited for you because this is what quote wildness looks like in our reality, right? Around like, what is wildness? Like, what do we mean by that? It's like taking risks, doing something that's vulnerable, do putting yourself out there, not knowing the outcome, maybe not doing something that's engaging in a passion that maybe you can't monetize, right? That's not gonna earn you money, that's not gonna lead to anything, but it's like joy for the sake of joy, like self-expression for the sake of self-expression, right? Like that's wild, you know? Like, and it's like sounds so simple, but it's unbelievable how difficult it is. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I feel like there's like a point too where she's like, I look at my life and I'm like, wait, how much of this like was my idea? Like, how much, like, you know what I mean? It's like, but I'm also like, I wish someone told me this earlier. Like, why wasn't this my summer reading book? Why was I reading fucking Grapes of Wrath and Cold Mountain and The Joy Love Club?
SPEAKER_02:Like, right. Like that's what changed my life.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, totally.
SPEAKER_02:And I think what you said, Steph, is really a good point, too, to say, like, I feel like sometimes when you read books like this, self-help books, it feels like they're almost telling you like you have to change your whole life. Like if you're dissatisfied, switch your whole life up and find your purpose. That's very overwhelming. Totally. But I think, yeah, like what we're saying is that it doesn't have to be that, it just can be a small change to do something new. But even doing something as simple as like, yeah, doing a podcast, it there it is outside of your comfort zone and the norm. And like when we are talking about that good girl mentality, it almost feels like it's going against that because it's like women are supposed to be quiet, not loud. Like, who cares what we have to say? Like, why would we do this? You know, type of thing. And like those are just the societal barriers that just come come up, even doing something as silly and simple as this. Yeah. Um, but yeah, it can be small things that change your life.
SPEAKER_00:Question for you all. Do you feel like your, I'm gonna call it your relationship with Taylor Swift is a way in which you access some of your wildness and some of your freedom? Definitely.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Oh yeah. That's a good call. That's where we thrive.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's your like that's a that's a place where you all have lots of reasons to not spend your money on Taylor Swift, to not take time away from your families. Kristen, you come from the place of like not having a family, but that has its own different pressure of should you be always doing things in search of you know the goals, right? Professionally, personally, right? Like spending time going away with your girlfriends. I mean, I remember like I can hear like a voice that's probably my mother's or just of the generation being like, Why would you go away with your friends? You should be looking for a man, you know, it's just something like that. But it's like, no, like this is like where the way that you guys engage in it, which is what makes it from an outsider. I think all the people watching you or that know you is like, no, I don't love Taylor Swift in the way you do, but I really love the way you love Taylor Swift because that energy that makes me feel alive on how alive you all become around that. That has like that is like not practical, not reasonable, not necessary, but so but it brings so much of yourselves there, right? It yeah, I it's beautiful.
SPEAKER_02:I feel like we feel that way when you talk about musical theater because you know such like the breadth of it and you love it so much. Like it's the same type of thing, but totally when you find the things that you really love and find passion for. It's like yeah, and let yourself have it.
SPEAKER_03:When like you're choreographing a show.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But you know, but I live in this in-between world with that because there's a part of me that's like, yeah, when I allow my, when I can get when I get in that space and I can be there, it's like, yes, 100%. It's without abandonment. It's but I moved to New York and I really want to get involved in theater. And but I'm scared because how can I make money? How can I continue to support my bills? What will people think of me? You know, it's like it doesn't, it's not, it doesn't sound as um accomplished, right? To say, like, okay, I gave up my career and my private practice and my business and actually just went into trying to find my way in theater again, especially at 35 years old, you know, and not that that's like so old, but I feel like I have to do it in this really like mature or reasonable way, like slowly, you know, whatever. But it's like, I don't know, does wildness work that way? You know, I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_02:And like, what's the alternative?
SPEAKER_00:Like not going for it and suppressing it, which only causes sickness, really. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And I liked when she said she was talking about like leaving her husband for Abby. And I think I don't think she'd ever been with a woman or anything. It was very like sudden. And it seems like her kids were young. I don't know how, like maybe like elementary school age.
SPEAKER_00:I think one, maybe the old, I think the oldest one, I think maybe it's 12. Yes. I don't know if it yeah.
SPEAKER_01:That sounds like that's decently young, you know. Like my first thought is like, oh, like what about your kids? You know, she's like, I can never leave my husband because like I couldn't do that to my kids. But then it's like, but wait, no, like the right thing to do as a parent is to model like behave, like going after what you want, and like to for your kids to see you thriving because you're doing you're happy. That sends a much better message to them than like you're miserable because you're stuck in this life and you're giving up your life for everyone else. And like, like you say, it's like it's like being sick.
SPEAKER_03:I didn't like that she made it seem just like so easy. She just like up and left, not easy, but like not everyone could be like, Oh, I'm now in love with this woman, I'm gonna leave my husband and children and like buying about money, yeah. And I think that's like not everyone has the means to like follow their totally buyers.
SPEAKER_00:Totally. I think you're bringing up such a valid point because there is the the because there is this reality of survival. So it's like this conditioning exists because this is the best chance of survival. We really cling to that because naturally, biologically, primarily. And that's my theater example. It's just like, you know, and I have privilege, and if I really did want to make an overhaul in my life and I don't have kids, like I'm probably in a really good position to do that. And yet, my sense of responsibility, my fear of survival really is like still tells me, mm-mm, don't do that, right? Like that's not that's not realistic, that's not practical. That would, but then to your point, like when there's kids involved, is like those consequences are a lot bigger. It's like, well, I'm not gonna be, I can't live on the street with my children, right? Or I can't be able to not give them food, right? I can't not feed them. So it's like, sure, can I make a choice? Yes, I can, right? But yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I feel like we've touched on like a couple of the different like themes that you talked about. Like maybe to go back to so she introed with, as we talked about, the cheat of the wildness, people have like that innate feeling, but she kind of goes into, um, we mentioned it before, just like this good girl thing that we all are growing up in, this societal constraint about what we should or what we shouldn't do. She says in the book, like she started to realize that there was outside expectations for her. She really started to feel that good girl conditioning happen around the age of 10. One of the stories I thought that was super like on point that kind of highlights this is she's talking about going in and seeing her two kids and their friends who are over. And she goes into the room that they're all hanging out in and she says, Is anyone is anyone hungry? The boys don't even look up at her and just say, Yeah, I'm hungry. We want food. And the girls look at each other and make sure to basically signal like, what are we gonna do here? Are we gonna say we're hungry or we're not? And they make a choice together and say, No, we're fine. But it highlights like how men are in just trusting their inner instinct and women are looking for external signs to like make a choice. And that's like one of the examples of the conditioning. So, what do we think about like how that showed up in like our lives? Do we feel like we were conditioned and like what age, what experiences?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I mean, I feel like for my whole life, age, I don't know, 10.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I was gonna say, I feel like I have a lot of memories of this, like from for even in preschool. Like, I was always the kid in like from that age early on. I hung out with the teachers more because I had this sense that I was told that, you know, I had this like inherent sense of shame. My body was already ridiculed from age five on. That it was like, you're not right, you don't belong, nobody, nobody's gonna want this. So it was sort of like part of that good girl conditioning was like, okay, let me make myself as small and as pleasant and as easy as possible, and like just sort of hide. My whole life has been most of my friendships up until college, really, and then have been just about who can I be for you? I mean, who how do I make myself adaptable and smaller so that I fit in your world? Because there is absolutely no way that um it would be okay for me to stand out without facing enormous amounts of rejection or loneliness or isolation. Totally. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, Gina. What about you, Jade? Please. Please needy out of your squad.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, I think that she like I do think it is happening to all of us, like subliminal subliminal subliminally.
SPEAKER_01:Subliminally.
SPEAKER_02:Um, but like even when she brought it to, I thought one of those moments where I was like, dang, Mike, Mike drop Glenn was when she was saying how like this conditioning to be like that women need to be the good girl has been ingrained in us literally since biblical biblical times. She talks about how like with Adam and Eve, like they blame Eve for the whole thing. Like, I don't think I really ever put it in that context. Like, Eve is the reason that we have temptation. It's the woman, like, so it's kind of telling us like if we step out of line and like pursue our desires, we're sinful.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Well, and then just to bring it to our Halloween theme, I mean, think about the witches, the Stregas, the Bluhas, the I mean, you guys are in Massachusetts, the Salem witch trials. I mean, this is what the crux of that was all about. I mean, yes, did these women actually have these like magical powers or connections with the devil? I mean, maybe we'll never truly know, but like likely not, right? We know that these were women who were just willing to be free, which ridiculed, burned at the stake.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, so true.
SPEAKER_01:I I feel like it's spot on too when she was like, um, we always praise like the selfless woman, you know what I mean, who's like doing everything for everyone. And like that's like what in our culture or society, that's like the ultimate woman is like someone who's selfless and like just it doesn't like you wouldn't even know she's there. And that's sad. But like when you think of it like that, I'm like, that is kind of true. Like I feel like in school, like or you know, when you're growing up, like everyone, at least for me, I feel like I was not able to like act out. Whereas like I had two brothers who were able to act out a lot more. But yeah, and I I don't know, I don't think it's like men, it's it's women too.
SPEAKER_02:Totally. And this kind of gets into what you were saying with like parenting. And I think that was really interesting to think about. Like, she was talking a lot about how she's parenting her children and how some of these lessons are showing up and how she talks to her kids. But a hundred percent, like that part definitely stuck out to me too, because I I do it in my own life, like with aunts or some or people who maybe like, you know, people who did like give up work and and were always at like all of the meetings and always like at the school plays and doing all the things, and you're like, oh my god, this person's a saint, right? Like we revere the selfless woman, and like should we be doing that? Because yes, and is that what you want for your daughters, you know?
SPEAKER_01:Right, right. Is that a good example for kids?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, right. Yeah, this has been a big theme in my life that I've worked with a lot, and like I've made a little transition or a little philosophy change, which is like there's no bravery and there's no courage in doing everything for everybody else, right? Like it's actually always been, and it's like I don't know if I'm articulating it great, but it's actually always been the easier route for me to take, even though it's caused exhaustion, even though it's made me sick, even though there have been a thousand negative consequences, like there's been a thousand negative consequences, and of course, this part of me that has wanted all of the praise for it, right? But um, it's easier, it's actually easier.
SPEAKER_02:Like it is less friction.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So I think just like when we're like with ourselves, with each other, how do we just like we can accept those compliments? We can acknowledge like when big efforts are made, because I think that that's important too. And at the same time, you know, can we check in with ourselves and each other around like was it really the most courageous thing for me to do? Or did I lose myself in this, or did I abandon myself in this? Or um, or did I just think it was actually easier, or did I just do it out of fear? Because I just give up. Yeah. Yeah, I put the effort in, you know, like yeah, yeah. But this also comes down to like again, as like another piece of this good girl thing is like also we can't we have to remember that like the way that our brain has evolved, we're very preoccupied with how people perceive us. Um organize things, so we're perceiving other things. people. So therefore we become very preoccupied with how we are being perceived. And it's really wild if you ever did an inventory on like if you just looked at a day and thought how many of the how many things that I did in this day from the things that I said to the things that I ate to the clothes that I wore were in the spirit of wanting to be perceived in a certain way. Majority not conscious of this it's like 99% of your day.
SPEAKER_01:You know you don't even notice it.
SPEAKER_00:You know, like yeah I believe it.
SPEAKER_02:I mean that even goes down to like I mean if you think about like anthropologically we were built to survive in groups. Like that's the only way for thousands of years people survive. So it's like there's this like anthropological like evolutionary need to be accepted by your group. But I thought that was interesting how she pointed that out. Like she says it's really easy to notice when you're dissatisfied. The harder thing is like to figure out how to get out of that place. And so she kind of gives you like a framework for when you're feeling that way she it's called the keys of how to like get out of your cage. But a part of that is like essentially trusting your intuition and just turning inward rather than for outside validation.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And knowing but I liked how she set it up by saying she was talking about um leaving her husband and she googles what do I do if I my husband's cheating on me but he's a good dad and she said that you know you can Google something like that and you can get 3,000 different suggestions on what to do, what's the correct thing to do. So she's just talking about it's impossible to please everyone and do the outside correct thing. You have to turn inward. That's the only way which I liked yeah but what did you guys think of the keys? So quickly it's intuition um or no it's feel the feelings that's step one. So she basically says you can't outrun feelings you can't numb them you have to feel them then it's um intuition so the knowing turning inward figuring out what you want imagination thinking like what are the possibilities for me and what of those what possibilities do I want and then courage to actually act on them. So that's kind of like a 30 second runoff of what the keys are but like what did we think of that section and what and any key in particular that you thought was interesting.
SPEAKER_01:I feel like I am kind of stuck on the first two of those I feel like I'm not like I don't really know what I want. You know what I mean? Yeah. But I have actually I have a question for you Seth I have a I have a burning question for you. So like I kind of assume like the knowing she was talking about like meditation or whatever at first. But as it goes on I don't know. But so I have had kind of a journey with meditation like before I had Tyler I probably did it pretty consistently for like two years and it was good. It was hard very hard but good and then I had Tyler and I just kind of lost time and I just felt like I didn't need to do it as much anymore.
SPEAKER_00:But like I don't know she talks about like being still and like listening to yourself do you have to actually be still no no because that's the hardest part about meditation sitting still yeah okay so I don't think that so meditation is certainly one way that you can access your knowing but really it's about so try not to equate stillness with quiet right so it's really about quieting and quieting is really about the noise of all the belief systems all the rules all the social norms all the um all the fears of perception all these all these things that we've been talking about I know that you have all had this example how many all of you how many wish anyone have a story of a moment where they have been in a situation they knew it wasn't going to go the way that whatever was going to was they they knew it wasn't going to go the way that it was going to be executed. They had a sense of feeling and but you're like all right for whatever reasons maybe to go along with the group you're like fine whatever I'll go along with it. And then sure enough it turns out and it's chaotic or maybe you get hurt in it or whatever and you're like I I knew that wasn't going to work out. I knew that wasn't good. That's the knowing so you have that actually all the time you don't need to be sitting in silence to access that right so it's really I think there's the first trusting your gut. Right. The first part is like hearing it the second part is trusting it listening to it right actually seeing it as valid as wisdom as opposed to um you know fear. And I do want to say something because you know Kristen you asked this question about the keys. I mean these keys have are are the basis of my work with a lot of women um in a lot of ways you know so not that I and I didn't necessarily get this from Glenn but yes the way that she articulates it is nice and simple and clear and easy to understand. Meditating the difference between intuition and instinct your instinct is a primal system within you that's going to guide you towards safety. So avoiding pain seeking pleasure right so that is that is like when you feel like those are the options of like oh I just don't want to deal with this and it's like no my gut says this is wrong. I'm not saying that it's bad, right? But my gut says this isn't safe for me or this like feels icky. That's going to be your instinct your intuition is going to be more of think of it as like you're a little bit more of your higher self. Your intuition might tell you to do something that's very hard that actually goes against your instinct right because your instinct is going to lead you towards safety go or the group your intuition is going to say you don't want to be a part of this group. So you might actually have some conflict between your instinct and your intuition at times because your intuition is guiding you on your own path of what's right for you. And that's not always the easiest and that's not always the most comfortable and that's not always the most you know survival sound so to speak. Yeah. So I think that's an important consideration is like this is how she's really differentiating this idea of knowing because it's like she had this knowing that she was meant to be with this woman that there was this connection there that it wasn't that you know that um she wasn't going to get her needs were not going to be met her the fullness of herself and her needs were not going to be met in her relationship. Her instinct though was Googling what do I do right? Her instinct was like this is fucking terrifying. I don't I this is crazy like how can I do this right her instinct was like I don't know about this her intuition her knowing was saying no matter what you've got to find a way to follow this right this is what's for you.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah and women are definitely taught to like silence that you know absolutely I think I know nothing like I do myself all constantly every single day I do.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah I'm definitely seeing it circulated when they say like women won't apply for a job if they don't meet 75% of the criteria men will apply if they have 25% of the criteria like we never think that we never trust our own abilities or like our own selves as much. I thought that one thing that she said too in terms of like the knowing because I will say I feel like Gina you were kind of saying this like one of your problems with the book is like it's not as um like no not all of us can have this big life revelation that she's fallen in love with this woman. Yeah. But I do think like it's not necessarily even about that. It's just like taking a minute to not just like go through the motions and just even stop to think like what do I think about this? Cause I can't I have such a hard time meditating that I was kind of like oh is the knowing like you said Britt just meditating like shoot like that's I don't want to do that. I feel like that's not what she's saying. And another tidbit that I thought like I can definitely lock into is like just trust your body. I like how she said that like she was like and I think people have that experience where it's like you just your body is almost telling you like that's just before your mind gets there.
SPEAKER_00:And your mind will talk you out of it. That's right. And you have to have your knowing split second though to be like oh listen to your body and not just ignore it you know right yeah right like often the knowing comes in the form can come in the form of sensations or feelings or imagery or metaphors you know is like it's actually less about words. And also I just got to put a thing out there for you guys on this meditation piece, which is like there are so many different ways meditation and mindfulness about is about being present and listening to your internal experience. I hardly ever do a sitting still practice. My like my the best way for me to connect because of how I make sense of my own experience in the world is through movement. So I am always I always do a moving thing and that looks like closing my eyes and just like listening to like okay what part of my body where's the impulse to move okay and then I just like lift my shoulder and it's like okay great and then I just explore that and I just am with my body and that and then and so I'm not you know I'm not thinking about anything. And then you know after that little practice is like then integration just starts to happen naturally and then I might have then I have a new thought that I'm like oh this is you know something has come to me that wasn't available before it's like it's important not to get too scientific about it right it's not like something is supposed to happen once you meditate. It's like actually about just creating space and new access so that all different kinds of thoughts and all different kinds of experiences can you can be open to receiving different messages or whatever it is. Yeah. Go.
SPEAKER_01:I one thing she said that I liked was she was like it's good to be bored. You know what I mean? Like I feel like I am like this like I try to like outrun boredom totally but she's like but boredom is when you're actually listening to yourself and that's when you like are more creative and like that's when like the the knowing is you know that that's when it flourishes basically so it's like good to be bored.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah um I think that's a a really good point like yeah tuning in being bored but also like what you're saying Steph yeah like you can do it more often than you think and it doesn't have to be like this huge thing. It's like I think at the end of the day she's just trying to get people just to take even a beat and like just look inward rather than outward which I feel like is a really good reminder and like is attainable and can just help you move like I'm trying to think of an example even like even this week I was out with um I was at my niece's soccer game and like some people were thinking about going out after um to get dinner and I had already made dinner and I really didn't I like we were going to Hamilton. I was like really it's a small thing but I was like I don't want to do that. You know what I mean? Like and normally my cue would be to people please and to just go with it. So my yeah like instinct would be like yeah yeah fine whatever I'll go but I like just tuned in for a second was like this might be a little awkward and might make people feel like you don't want to hang out with them. That's like a little uncomfortable but you don't want to do this. So go home and like that's what you have to do.
SPEAKER_00:That's it.
SPEAKER_02:That's like knowing that's it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And I have to I have to say is like in my own experience and watching and you know watching so many women move through this is like this is a daily thing that actually does become a regular way of existing. And I want to just bring it to like her point of like this is not like becoming something new or adding in a skill from the outside right that's like something you don't have. This is just really about remembering who you are right remembering what is has always been true for you, what has always been a part of your needs a part you know it's like so there's a way in which you actually get can live every day right like every moment like this you know it's like always there's always can always be a connection and it doesn't mean your life is solved and there's no problems and there's no stress and there's like that's not what it means. It just it just is like when you're living more aligned and authentically with yourself you can navigate the bumps this the hurdles the barriers all the bullshit just slightly easier right like and she definitely like emphasizes that it's like you know your life's not going to be perfect.
SPEAKER_01:Like it's still going to be hard. I mean that's her podcast where you can do hard things but like she's like feel the feelings like yeah which I feel like is also hard for me to conceptualize. But yeah I don't know I feel like it's just something maybe you have to do it like small ways every day rather than like you said like have this big thing.
SPEAKER_00:You know it's really just about remembering who you are, loving who you are right this is the self-acceptance piece that helps helps you lead a life where you feel free all the time right like that is the wildness of just like radical self-acceptance radical self-love like radical like this is who I am and I'm sorry if there's a challenge there for you. Right. And I think um what does your life look like when you start navigating what does your life look like and what did but more importantly what do you what does it feel like and what do you feel like when you are living in that place you know and I think that's where we can then start to access different senses of satisfaction and contentment and joy and blissfulness without needing a lot you know like it's great that we like to do all these big things but like I just came back from this trip and I'm like yeah I gotta travel 22 hours and go to the south of Spain to connect with myself. Like there was a part of me that was like this is a joke.
SPEAKER_01:You know I mean I loved my trip don't get me wrong and it really was whatever but it's like this is not fully necessary you know um yeah I feel like one other thing we didn't really talk about that I liked was um I think I forget what part it was but she was basically saying it's like in the air we breathe like all these like beliefs and stuff that like shape I think it was when she talked about racism which like makes yeah sense. You know what I mean? It's like like all these I don't know if it's like norms or whatever like all these like rules and stuff that society has told you to feel it's not your fault. You know it's like in the air we breathe like we last night we were talking about there was somewhere where you were like oh I just don't like her she's like too confident or whatever. And I was like well is that just the air we're breathing like yeah that's good. Right.
SPEAKER_02:Totally yeah what like final let's do our final rankings and maybe like biggest like thing you're taking away from the book. I feel like with these types of books I don't generally remember most of it but there's always like one to two things that stick with me like without fail. So I mean I can start I would say out of um five stars right that's what we've been reading our books out of five stars. I think 10 I think 10 okay I would give it out of 10 I would say I'm gonna give it like an 8.5 I liked it. I thought it was a quick read. I liked her style of writing how she did different stories to make her point. I think the biggest thing I'm taking away from it is like it's natural if you feel that dissatisfaction like that's your knowing telling you that something feels off. So just try to tune inward and like just ask yourself what you think is going on. I feel like the the knowing piece is the biggest thing that I'm gonna take away from it and probably probably try to like practice regularly.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah I would say I feel like my reading I'd probably give it a nine I think and yeah I think definitely the knowing and like trusting yourself and yeah being like not not like doubting yourself not getting caught up in like oh well a that's a like a bad parent would do that. You know what I mean? It's like but you're it's a good parent if it's gonna make you happy um and like the people pleasing thing like I just felt like was so spot on about women like the selflessness thing and like she's like but at the same time she's like the world doesn't need more selfless women like what the world needs is more women who are like taking control and are free and are wild or whatever. Like imagine how much the world would benefit from that. It would be completely different place.
SPEAKER_02:Totally and like even when you say like good bad parent like I feel like that's her whole point of saying like there is no good bad it's like what you think of what is your definition of a good bad parenting moment.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah her kids must be like so smart and like emotionally mature.
SPEAKER_00:I can't even imagine Tish maybe but don't bias that they're their own people they're their own journey right they're figuring out too as they go I don't think you know I would be curious to hear when they're older if they are able to come a lot of a lot of these thought leaders in the world who have kids I'm really curious to hear about their experience and but yeah maybe they call it psychobabble like Gina does.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Yeah so I'm gonna give the book a six out of ten. I think for me I enjoyed like all of her themes in the book like what both Brittany and Kristen have said I just don't think I needed to read 350 pages of it. I did enjoy her parts about like you were saying about like parenting and one part that stuck out but I know we've talked about this before is just especially raising boys is trying not to raise them to think that like being sensitive or anything like that is wrong and how like we've talked about Connor and Jack can both be shy but that like people think that's bad but like is that really a bad it's not yeah do you want your son to like do stuff that they don't want to be like jumping into stuff because his friends are like actually you don't you know you want them to take a step back and be like ooh like I don't like this I don't think this is right so I'm not gonna do it. So I did enjoy that. But I think if you are not a big also like feelings person, maybe not the book for you. Totally I'm gonna go back to my fairies and dragons and murder yeah I I do generally read for entertainment.
SPEAKER_01:It did feel a little bit more like homework but yeah yeah it but not really but overall like I would recommend it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah yeah yeah I I said to Gina quick that you know the first time I read it I breezed right through it and I had sort of more initial reactions like the knowing those are these are my biggest takeaways. The second time reading through it I definitely noticed some more resistance. I think partially because I feel so familiar with this content. It's like like yeah I hate this I don't like I don't love the way this sounds but you know in the spirit of being true is like yeah I'm a little beyond it now. I've actually integrated it and there's like a lot more depth and nuance to a lot of these concepts than gets portrayed in this book, you know? So um from that perspective but I give the book yeah I give the book like a I give the book a 10 out of 10 to be honest with you not because I think it's like the most phenomenal book but I think we just need these concepts to be discussed in a socially palatable way for women. And you know I knew that going into this that you weren't gonna this isn't your type of book you weren't gonna really love this but I think the fact that you read it and like could stay in it speaks to even if there were some things that were like not so palatable, there's a lot of palatableness in it, right? To get this out there. Yeah. So I think this time I'm really taking away I'm really taking away the imagination piece, the allowing myself to fantasize that's something that I have always seen as like a very negative or like I've watched that in myself because I can easily live in fantasy but there is something really beautiful about the ability to visualize and imagine um what things could be and then notice that. So yeah I'm like that's been a big support to me. So I'm like really hanging on to that this time.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah I love it. Put it on the summer reading list I wish some I wish this was on this should be a required reading for all girls and boys. Yeah I will chapter about boys was great.
SPEAKER_00:We didn't even get into that yeah right I feel like we could talk for like three more hours if we really yeah I know well there is another another book she came out with another book this year. It's a free on Spotify if you listen to audio is We Can Do Hard Things is the follow-up now and it's kind of an integration of her podcast and all of that. Oh I thought it was a podcast it's a book too yeah so there is a podcast but now there's a book um so that's you know in case you're want to do more when you're reading books like this I said to Gina like sometimes it's okay to have this book something like this going because this is more something you're interacting with right you gotta you're thinking about it you're reflecting right and it's like sometimes you're not in that space to do that. So I'm just gonna encourage you like if you're at all curious about reading the book for you know our listeners it's like give yourself permission we read it in a tight turnaround time because we were going to talk about it right but give yourself permission to take time with it right like sometimes sometimes with books like this I just finished reading All the Way to the river by Liz Gilbert which is another similar style but her own her own story. Beautiful book went to the book thing got the yeah went to her book event got it you know had a signed book read the first 50 pages immediately and I was like this is really heavy like I can't I just like can't engage with this it's like so it took me three months to muddle through the book you know and it's like or two months to muddle through it and it's like give yourself permission to relate to it as feels natural and doable for you because that will be more fruitful than like forcing yourself to digest this kind of content.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah totally totally I'm so glad that we did one like this um I know this was a great choice introduced us by Steph. So thank you Steph and thank you Steph and Gina for coming on for this episode.
SPEAKER_01:This was so I feel like we could do like three more episodes just to talk about the same thing.
SPEAKER_00:Me too I know well in the spirit of Halloween I want to just give a little plug to my favorite movie as Gina knows is Halloween Town but one of my favorite quotes in there is magic is really very simple. All you have to do is want something and let yourself have it and I think really at the end of the day that is what Glenn is posing to us. So what about we'd wrap up right magic is very simple you have to do is want something and let yourself have it I mean I mean could it be a better finish?
SPEAKER_01:I don't think it could be all right snitches thanks so much for listening in we hope everyone has such a great weekend happy Halloween oh Steph did you think of your third uh Broadway song no I didn't I was engaged in the conversation here 23 hours you have 23 hours to know um all right cool well make sure to like us follow us comment at us at snitch and pod on tick and tick tock on Instagram go to our website snitchandpodcast.com and tell everyone you know about us thanks guys thanks everyone guys happy Halloween bye