The Price of Choice - Abortion - Gender & Social Inequality

In this episode of Choice Chat, host Tara sits down with longtime labour and reproductive justice leaders Carolyn Egan and Tracey Ramsey to unpack how abortion access is deeply tied to economic justice and social inequality in Canada. 

Drawing on decades of organizing in unions and community movements, Carolyn and Tracey trace the role of the labour movement in supporting Dr. Henry Morgentaler, winning decriminalization, and continuing to defend access today. They show how abortion is not just a “personal” or “moral” issue, but one that shapes a person’s entire economic future—whether they can finish school, keep a job, afford housing, or support the children they already have.

The conversation also explores:

• How unions frame abortion and reproductive health as core workers’ rights issues.
• The ongoing gaps in access across provinces, especially for people in rural and northern communities.
• The intersections of race, class, immigration status, Indigeneity, gender and geography in determining who actually gets care.
• Canada’s shameful and ongoing legacy of forced sterilization, especially of Indigenous women and incarcerated people.
• Why decriminalization matters—and why many advocates don’t want a new abortion law in Canada.

Carolyn and Tracey close with concrete ideas for getting involved: from union women’s committees and campus groups to national organizations and targeted campaigns pushing for real access on the ground.

If you care about economic justice, workers’ rights, or reproductive freedom, this episode will challenge you to see abortion for what it is: essential health care and a cornerstone of equality.

The Price of Choice - Links

 Ontario Coalition of Abortion Clinics https://ocac-choice.com/

 United Steelworkers Union https://usw.ca/issues/women-of-steel/

 Unifor – Women https://www.unifor.org/resources/equity/women

https://www.unifor.org/campaigns/all-campaigns/reproductive-justice-now

https://www.unifor.org/campaigns/all-campaigns/declare-intimate-partner-violence-epidemic

https://www.unifor.org/campaigns/all-campaigns/stop-violence-against-indigenous-women-and-girls

 Abortion Rights Coalition of Canada https://www.arcc-cdac.ca/

 Action Canada for Sexual Health & Rights https://www.actioncanadashr.org/access-line

https://www.facebook.com/actioncanadaSHR/  https://www.instagram.com/actioncanadashr/#  https://x.com/actioncanadashr 

Thanks for listening to Choice Chat, a Humanist Canada podcast about choice, dignity, and reproductive justice. We’re glad you’re here. Do you have a story to share? Do you want to suggest a topic? Email us at choicechat@humanistcanada.ca or connect with us on social media. We look forward to hearing from you.

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Transcript

Choice Chat – Episode 6 – The Price of Choice – Abortion and The Social Inequality

Tara 

Welcome to Choice Chat, the podcast where we explore the complexities of abortion, sexual and reproductive health with empathy, clarity and an inclusive humanist lens. Our goal is to foster dialogue, share resources and empower individuals to make informed decisions. I'm a member of Humanist Canada and your host, Tara. Today we are exploring how reproductive rights intersect with economic justice and social inequality in Canada.

And to that end, I am so excited to introduce you to two fascinating guests who have deep, deep insights on this topic for many years of advocating for reproductive healthcare access. First, I'd like to introduce Carolyn Egan. Carolyn was a founding member of the Ontario Coalition for Abortion Clinics and worked with Dr. Henry Morgentaler in the campaign to overthrow the federal abortion law.

She has continued to work in the Reproductive Justice Movement and is past president and a board member of the Abortion Rights Coalition of Canada. Carolyn has been the elected president of the Steelworkers Toronto Area Council since 2004. She had previously served as vice president. She is also President of USW Local 8300 where she earlier held the position of Recording Secretary, Unit Chair, and Steward in her workplace.

She's the Vice President of the Steelworkers Humanity Fund. Welcome, Carolyn. So excited to meet you. 

Carolyn Egan 

Delighted to be here. Thanks very much.

 Tara

And also extending a warm welcome to Tracey Ramsey. Hi, Tracey. 

Tracey Ramsey

Hi, Tara. 

Tara

Tracey's the Director of the Women's Department at Unifor. And Unifor, for those who may not know, is Canada's largest and most diverse private-sector union, with more than 320,000 members across Canada. Tracey is a Unifor Local 200 member and a strong trade union activist. She's an auto worker and has worked at Ford engine plants in Windsor since 1996. Tracey is a grassroots activist with a strong focus on social justice. She's also a former union facilitator, women's committee chairperson, and has worked in the national organizing department.

While laid off in 2008 just to throw something else in there, she graduated from practical nursing at St. Clair College. Tracey's also a former member of Parliament for the Writing of Essex, where she served as the NDP Trade Justice and Deputy Labour Critic. She currently serves as the president of the UNI Global Americas Women's Committee, co-chair of the Windsor Essex Health Coalition, and on the board of Child Care Now, a national childcare advocacy organization.

She describes herself as a passionate working-class feminist, policy wonk, and community advocate. Welcome Tracey. 

Tracey Ramsey

Thank you Tara. Happy to be here. 

Tara

Now you've both been involved in advocating directly for workers' rights and you sort of come at abortion access from this angle through your union work, which is probably not an avenue that most people think about when they think about reproductive healthcare and advocacy. I wanted to start by asking you about this, it's really interesting. 

How do unions view abortion access and reproductive healthcare as a labour issue? Can I throw that question out just to both of you to speak to for a minute? 

 Tracey Ramsey

Yeah, I mean, I think that we're always involved in social justice. We don't just look at our contracts and kind of the bread and butter of the work that we do every day for workers. But for us, it's very important that we're part of social justice, part of society and being out there with civil organizations and the work that they're doing. And it really is about human rights and that ultimately is about women's rights. You when it comes to reproductive justice, we've been out on the lines and have certainly had our own debates within our own union to arrive at the positions that we have. And those haven't been easy by any means, but...

 Happy to say that they've been established now for, I would say decades at this point in that kind of struggle within. Yeah, so we have a great ability to get out there and be a voice on social issues. And a lot of times because health care providers, people in nonprofit organizations who are doing this incredible work are really limited in their capacity to push back politically. And we're not right? So we really can be out there arm in arm with all of our comrades in labour on this issue. And I think that you would find across Canadian labour unions that we are all in sync on where we're at. Perhaps there's one or two that are kind of off, I guess, from the rest of us. But generally, we all stand together on this issue. And we recognize that it's important that we represent workers in this space, even if we take that criticism from our own members who perhaps don't agree with the stances that we take, because we know that our voices needed and we're happy to join in those efforts with other amazing trade unions like Carolyn.

 Carolyn Egan 

I agree very, very much with what Tracey was saying. And I think it'd be interesting to go back a little bit historically and see how that actually worked in concrete ways. Because if you want to look at, say, the early 1980s and all, when the Morgentaler campaign, the campaign that was initiated to try and overturn the federal abortion law, because so many people did not have access to abortion, and we'll get into more detail on that maybe a little bit later.

 I will tell you, when we were working in the Ontario College of Abortion Clinics with Henry Morgentaler, it was really important to build a broad movement because he had already been jailed in Quebec and he suffered quite a lot. Obviously, you know, it's not simply a heart attack in jail, yet financial difficulties, all kinds of things of that nature. So he understood that it was really important that it not just be a figurehead physician and some people around him who would sort of push and move forward. He was very clear with us and we were very clear as well. We had to build a movement and we understood that it had to be beyond what would be seen as a traditional women's movement. And so when we were testing the waters, because we felt very strongly that there was a real depth to the pro-choice perspective, reproductive justice perspective in this country. And the question is, how do you organize it?

 And so we did a number of things to test those waters. We got a number of people, including trade unionists, to sign a half-page ad in the Toronto Star. And then we had a very large meeting in downtown Toronto, packed out. You couldn't get in. was lines going around the corners at the auditorium at the University of Toronto at OISEY. And one of the speakers there was Louis Lenkinsky, who at the time was the Secretary-Treasurer of the Ontario Federation of Labour.

 And what we felt was it was critical that we get communities involved and show that this is really a mainstream issue. went very much to organizations like Women Working with Immigrant Women to get people from racialized communities, immigrant communities, because who were suffering quite a lot from the loss of access. But what we also did was felt the trade union movement was critical, absolutely critical. And we went to the Ontario Federation of Labour Convention. We did a lot of work. were people from the time, C.A.W., which was the four-rounder to Unifor, my own union, the United Steelworkers, public sector unions like CUPI. And we did a tremendous amount of work to try and get the trade union movement to, in a very concrete way, come on board. And so it was debated on the floor. And I'm not going to say that everyone on that floor was supportive, but I will tell you that we won that. Very important, Cliff Pilkey, who was a UAW President at the time, he came out of Oshawa and we also had Wally Majeski, who was the President of Toronto and York Region Labour Council. They played very significant roles in being very, very supportive. And I think we may have been able to win it without them, but the fact that they, being labour leaders, male labour leaders at that time, was hugely important. And I remember that Pilky particularly saying he remembers what it was like in Oshawa in those times and women being forced to have children that they really couldn't afford, didn't want to have. And, you he spoke really very much from his own life. It was a hugely important debate. And the winning it, I think, really was a huge step forward in Dr. Morgentaler and all of us to say, yeah, we have got the support. We've got the support on the ground and it's just up to us to broaden the movement and really organize. And I think that trade union support was very important and maintained right on through that campaign.  Because we knew we had to use the collective power that we have. And as Tracey was saying, the trade union movement has a lot of collective power, right, if they choose to use it. And it made a huge difference. So in concrete ways, right on through up to the overturning of the Supreme Court, rather the overturning of the federal law in the Supreme Court and the trade unions were there.

 Tracey 

I just want to add something because when Carolyn was speaking, first of all, I just love to hear this history of the involvement of the broader labour movement, but also the women's movement within trade unions is very powerful. We have become a really significant force and we do that across all of our unions. Carolyn and I, prior to this, have been working together on childcare, worked together with feminist groups across the country, worked together, you know, on marches like the IWD, there's a lot of collabortion between women across the labour movement in Canada. And I think that that lends to our strength because it's not coming from just one of us, it comes from all of us together.

Carolyn Egan 

Very much so, very much so. And those women's committees, whether they were in Flin Flon or in the East Coast somewhere or in the interior of BC, they were a very, very significant part of the movement. And, it made a big difference. I mean, we had a strong women's committee up in Sudbury, the local 6,500. They were right there. And Dave Patterson, who was the President at that point as well, he faced a lot of fight back, or pushback, shall I say. But nonetheless, they were clear and it made a huge, huge difference. And I think it also gives others more confidence when you've got organized women's committee, when you have the local leadership saying, we're on board with this. For people who might be a little hesitant, I feel this way, but do I want to really take the step up? Particularly in more rural communities, you know, where it's pretty obvious to everybody where you may stand and it's not quite being the same in a city or a larger community. So that was hugely important.

 Tara 

Wow, thank you so much for this history too. I was not aware of that. And it's so moving actually to hear about the amount of work, the amount of effort that so many people in the trade union movement, but as well directly supporting Dr. Morgentaler and gathering around him as a symbol maybe of that movement. And what strikes me too is all those efforts being so strategic and so thought through. Maybe you can talk a little bit about how you were able to win that battle on the floor with the unions? What is it about this fight that got the attention of the trade movement and the individuals fighting for human rights and workers' rights within that movement? What was the appeal? What's the argument there?

Carolyn Egan 

Well, if I could speak just about the Ontario Federation of Labour at that point, we did a lot of planning. We had all kinds of leaflets, etcetera, why abortion rights is a trade union issue. If you support the rights of women, then you'd have to support, et cetera. We did a lot of work. We worked with the OFL Women's Committee. We worked with Organized Working Women. We had many women from the rank and file women, from many different unions and we did a tremendous amount of planning. And before it came to the floor, usually unions have caucuses, you know, the OFL lasts maybe four days, I forget something like that. And they all had caucuses and we made it through women's committees and sympathetic people within those caucuses, we made the opportunities to happen that we would address the people who were there and explain why it was so important. We didn't leave it to chance. We had buttons. The more buttons people wear on a particular issue, it sets a tone, creates a momentum. And that was very, very important. So it was a buildup. We were there every day. We had a table there, giving out, talking to people, all of that. And of course, we knew when the resolution, the motion was going to come forward.

 We very carefully arranged for people to be at the mics. I mean, it is a strategic question. You can't leave anything to chance in circumstances like this. And it was mostly women who spoke and they spoke about stories from their mothers. They spoke about their own situation. I remember whether it was Joyce Rosenthal or Lois Bedard, they were sisters and I forget which one or maybe both spoke about the circumstances and that they were quite a bit older than we were at that point. And it was a very moving and very powerful strategic approach to it. And of course there were people opposed to it too, but they were in the minority, at least at the mics. And I think the way in which these very strong women spoke, and some never been at a mic before, but they felt so, so strongly about the issue.

 And there was a lot of support. Sometimes when someone's a first time speaker and people stand up beside them so they're not alone, you know, this huge room talking to probably mostly men at that juncture. But it was that. And then the intervention, you know, from people like Pilky and Wally Majeski. I mean, that obviously had an influence as well. It was very well planned. The politics of it were very good. 

 Who was being denied? And that was what was being said. Who was being denied? 

 Because the upper class women, the women with resources, they have the rights. It's the working class woman, the racialized woman. And we had a consciousness of that. We can speak more later about it. And that was a major focus, the politic. And if you're going to have choice in your life, then you have to, and we did frame it in that way, you have to have the right to childcare. You have the right to decent job. You have the right to birth control in your own language, your own community. Stop the sterilization that's coerced and forced on some communities. All of that. And of course, full access to free abortion, the way we framed it was a part of that. And I think it was the politic of the movement, but it also a politic that really, really connected with working class people in the unions. And it made a huge difference.

 Tara 

Amazing. Do you have anything to add in there, Tracey? I saw you nodding a fair bit. 

 Tracey Ramsey

Yeah, mean, again, like it's just such rich history, And on the surface, like Carolyn's saying, it maybe seems as though it wasn't a lot of work, but this was years of work, tremendous amounts of work, education, just breaking the silence amongst women ourselves of these kind of secrets and whispered things that we kept and still keep, to be honest. Like I think the overturning of Roe v. Wade has kind of launched us into what is the next wave of reproductive justice and rights in our country. And it still remains so stigmatized. It still remains so silent and unspoken of. And this is something we're pushing for. But I think it's that strategy, the amount of education, those male allies are key and they still are key.

 They still are tremendously important in that space to highlight how many women are being impacted. And then talking about their economic future, talking about what it is that they envision for themselves and having the full right to that life. This is ongoing, and I don't think it will ever end until we see full, complete access and talking about abortion in our country like healthcare, versus talking about it as something that's this quiet stigmatized thing that most of us have experienced, most of us, talk about with the very closest people to us, but it still remains a significant challenge even in 2025. 

 Tara

And that is our real mission behind the podcast too, is to break that silence, to keep a dialogue in a public space. And we're also aware that the rights we've gained are under threat. And perhaps that is just always something that we're going to have to engage in defending because maybe that, I think I grew up in the 80s, at the time when you were doing this work, Carolyn, and hearing I would have been 14 when rv Morgentaler came down when the decision was made. So I think I grew up as a teenager in a world where, that problem's kind of solved and we can move on from here. Now we're seeing this backsliding and really becoming aware that we need to continue to defend, continue to advocate, kind of rest on the laurels of the people who've gone before and engaged in this fight before us. And we have a new generation two of women today or just people are torn or hesitant about even using the word feminist or talking about themselves as feminists. I hear that a lot with younger women. It's very concerning. I guess the work doesn't stop. We want to take your wisdom and your insights and knowledge and be able to pass it on to the other people who are as interested and concerned in maintaining human rights and women's rights. 

 Just to take it back to the economic question for a minute, can we talk a little bit about what you've observed in your advocacy work around how I think a lot of people think of abortion, they think of it as a moral or an ethical issue strictly, but it is an economic issue. Can you talk about that? How is it an economic issue? How does abortion to access healthcare affect people's economic mobility? 

 Tracey Ramsey 

Yeah, so I mean, I think it impacts it so much that, and it's never been studied. Like many things that involve the lives of women in our own country and abroad, this has never been quantified. It's never been captured and put together. And there's massive economic implications. First of all, your ability to work, if you're going to stay in the same job that you're in, if you end up in a low paying job because you're forced to have a child and then you're juggling basically housing, all the things that Carolyn mentioned, all the things that people should have, your childcare, your housing, all of those things. There's also the fact that it's not accessible across our country. I think what Carolyn and the work of her group really envisioned, we've never really come to full fruition, right? Like if we scratch at the surface, we see the inequities and they're deep and a lot of them are economic. So if you live in a rural community and you wanna access abortion services, you are going to have to travel. You may not be able to get it covered by a pharmacy within your own home community. You may have challenges finding a doctor who will prescribe medication like Mifegymiso. I mean, there's so many barriers that exist that hit women right in the pocket and gender diverse folks that it's, I don't know how we qualify that or put that all together. But ultimately it's about having that choice and that autonomy and that decision over what it is that you want to pursue. And it can impact your career, your schooling, so many things that end up having huge economic impacts throughout your life. You know, we've just watched this horrific case in the States of essentially a woman who is deceased being used as an incubator for a child. And what are the economic implications of that? Who cares for this child if they have medical needs? Who houses them in school? Like all of these things I think are coming to pass because we're watching things that are happening in the US and you don't have concerns about that? But even in our own country, there is an economic impact to be had when you don't have the right to your own autonomy and reproductive access. And let's be honest, access isn't even necessarily in every province. And maybe it's only one place in a province, you know, and we've seen it be no places in provinces. These inequities continue. Women in the north, all of the barriers that they face are economic. I mean, who has time to take time off work, to travel, to go to another city, access reproductive care? Right? And be able to do that and probably multiple times do that trip, not just once. So, who supports that? What does that look like? And ultimately for us, it's about workers having the ability to control and have some say, I guess, in their own economic futures. And this is a huge part of it.

 Carolyn Egan 

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I mean, Tracey put it all very, very well. And when I think back to some of the things that motivated that campaign that backed Dr. Morgentaler, it was exactly that. I mean, as I said earlier, who is being denied? Cause I worked in a birth control centre and we saw every day people coming in trying to access abortion. And, 

if you happen to have resources, it was there for you. And remember, this was quite a long time ago. We didn't have cell phones. We didn't have the internet. We had very little. And, in those days in a city like Toronto, which was probably one of the best served, you had to, if you weren't willing, because there was extra billing at that point, and doctors could actually have you pay. They could actually charge more than OHIP in this province paid for. So, you would have to call Toronto General Hospital at 8:30 in the morning and usually you'd have to stay on the line half hour 45 minutes before they pick up and then they'd say well I'm so sorry all the appointments are gone, call again tomorrow. Well, you can imagine a woman in a plant, a woman in a hospital, a teacher, a young person, anyone who doesn't have a familiarity with English, who's not connected to the health care system, people without health cards. I mean it was so impossible the hoops that women and others were having to jump through were just extraordinary. And of course, the economics was huge, but also the whole racial question was very real and has to be looked at as well because it was just, for us maybe it was anecdotally who was being denied, but we had been involved earlier in helping to found - myself and others, the immigrant women's health centre. And they saw so, so many without health cards as did where I work, and it was so, so difficult. And when we did have the fight, one of the things we wanted full access to free abortion, and one of the things that was actually won and is being eroded very much now is that there were a few centres in Ontario after the Morgentaler decision at the Supreme Court and the Ontario government set up these regional women's health centres, which you didn't need to have a health card. This was huge. It's got lost in history and it's something we're still fighting to maintain right now. But I think that those issues were critical. Thankfully, it very much informed the politics of the people who were involved because so many were from the trade unions, so many from a sort of, if I want to say a socialist feminist kind of, where the right, simply the right to have access to abortion, which a lot of the US movement absolutely you need the individual right to access, no two ways about it. You want to get rid of the law, but so much more had to be in place for allowing ordinary people who didn't have a lot of resources, economic resource, to find their way through the maze. And as Tracey was saying, different provinces, it was so difficult. I mean, PEI, took decades. New Brunswick until recent, all kinds of issues in rural areas, interior areas, indigenous reserves up north having to come off how many times. And then you bring forward today and obviously there've been a lot of advances. There are more clinics than there were then. There's greater access than there was then, but it's not perfect by a long shot and it's really difficult. 

 And I know that in a city like Toronto where hundreds of thousands of people who do not have a status. And what's the score there? As I mentioned, there is a hospital where you were for quite a while not needed to pay anything. Now that's being sort of chipped away at because suddenly there are blood tests. Suddenly there are all these other costs that are making it difficult. I mean, we are in a situation where we have access to Mifegymiso which is the medical version in a particular area,  in a particular health centre that they do not have to pay because they're working with a larger organization that is making that available through midwives. 

 And so there are things of that there, but those are very much bandaged solutions. And so you've got a situation where, again, people who do not have, what do I want to say, the class privilege or whatever, who are being denied, who can't work their way because they don't know how to work their way through the medical system. And if they can find a centre like the Immigrant Women's Health Centre or others, or public health units, which are helping out quite a lot, and to navigate all that, they're being denied. So we need absolutely, in Ontario and every province, a real policy on access to abortion. It's critical and it's not there, and simply having the health card is not enough because of so many who don't. And even if you have a health card, how do you navigate your way through it all to find where you can get it, particularly if you're not in a city. In terms of the economic or the class and as I would say, racial dimensions of this are huge because yeah, you're right, there's probably not a lot of statistics, but we know through the work that we all do that that is who is losing out and it's part of it. And if we talk about Roe V. Wade, who were the leadership in the fight back the Mississippi clinic and so many were brown and black people leading the fight because it was their communities who were being devastated by the the anti-choice and the far right who've been trying to do what they did for decades and decades. So it's right there. It's right in our face. And it's, very clear that that's, that has to be, you know, front and centre as we continue the fight.

 Tara 

And maybe this could be a very big question and maybe it's something we'll work towards answering through our conversation. But I'm just picking up on what you said about we need, I guess, policy or I don't know, how to sort of codify the right to access without making abortion under a legal code as well. My understanding in Canada is that we do actually have a good situation in that abortion is decriminalized. And we interviewed Dr. Renee Hall from BC recently, who said we don't have laws governing our knee replacements. So, why do we have laws governing our reproductive health care? So, the fact that it lives in an extra-legal area is actually very good for Canadian people with uteruses who need access to that care. I'm wondering if you have any thoughts about how do we thread that needle of  getting some kind of codified right to access while still remaining in this decriminalized space for abortion? Is there even an answer there? Or what are people working on to try to affirm that? 

 Tracey Ramsey

Yeah, I mean, I don't think we do, right? I think that we approach it through the access and that we look at all of the supports that are needed. First of all, like the federal government could approve the transfer funds to sexual reproductive health services in the provinces. We could have access to more telehealth so that when people are ordering Mifegymiso, they don't have to go to their local pharmacist, use a friend's of their dad's in a rural community who maybe has conscientious objection or something. And I think that's a whole other thing that's kind of emerged for us is in our research on kind of where we're at now is what's happening at the pharmacy level, right? So, I mean, there are many things that we can do, but I think it is really just enforcing the Canada Health Act against the provinces that are not upholding the pillars and that's essential. So, until we see a government kind of coming forward with these moves I don't think that we attempt to touch anything else because we see the conservatives consistently finding loopholes within the system to try to criminalize, right? And so, a couple of them have been very persistent and will likely continue to be persistent. We know that there's an anti-choice contingent there. And in fact, in the last parliament, every single conservative MP voted anti-choice. So, thank you to the Abortion Rights Coalition for the wonderful work that they do to follow along with all of this work that's happening at the legislative level. But, I think that we risk them having a clearer path versus trying these loopholes, which are thinly veiled and we see through. But often it's difficult to explain that to Canadians, right? Who are unfamiliar with the reasons why we shouldn't have a law. And they say, why don't we just get a law? You have to say, wait, okay, let's unpack that because that could come with a whole other set of issues around it. 

 And so I think there's a lot we could revoke charitable status for anti-choice groups. We've seen the federal government recently remove their access to things like Canada summer jobs. There have been moves like that, but I think it needs to be a stronger removal of that charitable status. So I do think there are a lot of things that we can do. And when we look at the US, I live down on the border of Detroit and Windsor. 

 For us, it's also about asylum seeking. When people are in the US are unsafe and unable to access abortion services that they need without it being tracked by the government over there from state to state, we need to look at how we support people who are trying to get that access without, because it's criminalized in so many states now to the point that they're trying to pursue the death penalty, I think in five states. It's become a very, very serious human rights issue. So all of these things, think, could strengthen what we have and why not throw in things like affordable housing, truly accessible childcare to everyone, pushing on the provinces in terms of that. There's a lot we can do and I think we should focus on this versus the let's get a law.

 Carolyn Egan 

Yeah, thank you. And I couldn't agree more. when you just look at the province of Ontario that I'm most familiar with, for example, when the law returned, there was funding available for the Morgentaler Clinic, a number of other clinics and a number of them, they're still open. One has closed because the doctor got ill and whatever, but there's one in Ottawa, there are a number in the city of Toronto and they are fully funded. They have funding for their nurses, their counselors, et cetera.

 But they have not, it was the Harris government, conservative government quite a long time ago in the 1990s that grandfathered them, but would allow no more funding. And so you have situations where other clinics have established themselves, but they can't survive, sadly, without asking for a facility fee, a little bit more money. And that is always done in conjunction with an understanding of what the financial resources of the person accessing have. But it is unconscionable that in a province like, I'm involved in the Ontario Health Coalition, the whole question of the privatization and all that, and the hospital, all of the things that are happening, the attacks on our health care system. But they are funding private clinics all over the place. They're setting them up. We know that, radiology, this and that. And yet the clinics that I'm aware of that do not presently have that funding and they exist essentially on the OHIP fees and whatever additional money, it's not a lot, but nonetheless.

 And they will not fund, they will not give, they will not. And it's ridiculous. So again, for people to find access, you have to pay that extra. You know, you have to pay that extra in order to get the access and it's, it's unconscionable. I mean, I know one physician, for example, who flies up to Sault Ste. Marie once a month to do the procedures there because they don't happen to have a physician who does it. Mifegymiso is available. Everyone doesn't choose to have Miffy. It's like going through a miscarriage. It's not everyone's choice.

 And you have that circumstance where it's unconscionable that in a highly developed country like Canada, with the medical facilities that we have, we have some of the best in the world, that a province like Ontario or any other province would not put in place something that means that wherever you are living in this province, you have to have access with a certain area to be able to get that procedure, if that's what you so choose.

 I remember being on a panel years ago with Dr. Marion Powell soon after overturning the law and all that. And they talked about northern travel grants. Well, there are such things, but you know about how you can, I mean, maybe there aren't a lot of procedures necessary in certain area, but like this physician flying in or find ways of making this happen because there are a lot of young, wonderful people come out of med school who, you know, who are medical students of choice. Who are willing certainly to do all these kinds of things if the opportunities were there to do it. But we need a policy and it has absolutely nothing to do with necessity of a law. Law is one thing. Legal right and you're right. We fought and we got a situation. They tried to bring in a new law that got defeated by one vote in the Senate and that was really lucky. But it's not on the table right now. Let's hope that's it. 

 But if you look back - it was a movement, a strong broad-based movement with an anti-racist class perspective, if I may say, that won this for us in the past and it's what is going to maintain it and have to push it forward, I think. I know that you see the far right gaining everywhere in the world, they're to push back here and there, but we have a circumstance in the States. As you said, Tracey,  but the right has a fair sway politically for a whole range of reasons, and people understand, I think, the reasons why. And we have to make sure that nothing is eroded, and we have to keep moving forward. And that hits the most financially vulnerable in a way that is horrific. And that's what I think we have to allow everyone in our movement to understand. Because for a lot of people, if they do get pregnant, there is an abortion clinic, there is hospital access.

 They're not aware in quite the same way that they might've been in the eighties of what the loopholes are and who's not getting it. So I think we have the capacity for it. And I think we just have to keep pushing it. And wherever there's a setback, we have to push forward and always demand better and better and better. And, it's a tough fight because we know politically we're up against it. I was listening to a CBC program and all the potential cutbacks that may be coming with the increase in defense spending and they're talking about transfer payments to provinces, well, transfer payments, are health, education. What is this all about? And what then gets put on the block? And we have to be sure that this is not going to be eroded. So yes, there's the political question of a law. I think we can stay steady as we are. We do not need a law. And I think sometimes  well-meaning people say, we need a law. Don't open that can of worms. It's not a simple question. Keep that as it is and then we fight like heck to broaden the access and get policies in place if we're able by pushing, pushing, that will really benefit everybody.

 Tara 

I want to pick up on something that you said there, Carolyn, about it's important for people in our movement to understand how intersectionality basically affects equal access to health, reproductive health care services. Can we talk a little bit more about that? How does geography, race, class,  status, gender impact access for people?

 Carolyn Egan 

Well, I think both Tracey and I have talked about when we talk about choice, we have a whole range of women's issues or people's issues, really like the right to childcare, decent housing, a decent job, and forced sterilization, right to express your sexuality as you choose, no matter how you define yourself. All of that has to be there. And I think that when we look at access to anything, but surely abortion rights and reproductive health care, it is absolutely critical. we in Whe city of Toronto, like the Immigrant Women's Health Centre, Working Women's Community Centre, there are a whole range of women's health in women's hands of services, but it has to be integrated into the whole because, I mean, Toronto is a city that's over 50 % born out of this country, over 50 % racialized peoples.

 And the economics, you know, bear that out into, you know, who, who still, I mean, there's still equal pay for work of equal value. There's all kinds of things. look at the racial dimensions of who makes what amount of money and all of that. It's right there. And so I think that any movement, and I see it myself, I mean, sitting on the board of the abortion rights action coalition, I mean, when you look at the board and, know, people retiring, all the change taking place, but so many young people from so many different backgrounds primarily racialized, indigenous, and they're young, they're fighters. They want to work with people who've been around for a while, and we've just got some absolute, their allegiance of young people who are very, very concerned and really wanting to see this as part of their political activity and their vision of what kind of society we want to live in. So I'm quite heartened by who's coming up. Who's taking over the leadership roles. Who's doing all this work. And it's very inspiring in so many ways, but we're up against it because the right is well-funded. I have no idea where Carney is on this question. I don't think I haven't heard that he's particularly ideological on the question, but will you go the next step? Will you go the next step and make sure that the monies are there for the provinces to be able to fund these facilities and then the provinces have to make sure. And when the pressure comes, and I remember back when Klein was  the premier of Alberta, there was a real push within the conservative party that he was a part of to delist it. Lying, you have the right to abortion, but we're not going to pay for it. Well, that was defeated.

 That was defeated, these are the worries, anti-choice by stealth. These are the worries too, that are there that, my God, we can't afford this anymore. You know what? Absolutely, you have the right, but not on the government dollar. All of those things are there. And again, who is going to be most affected? Hopefully that's a bit of an answer to your question. 

 Tara

Thank you. 

 Tracey Ramsey 

Yeah, I mean, I think I agree with everything Carolyn has said, and the injustices are deep and they're not equal, right? So cisgender white women are living a different life, right, for many reasons that are deeply wrong. And I think when you see young people rising up about these injustices, you know, against anti-Indigenous, anti-Black, anti-immigration in our country, you know, it is heartening, but these are big, big fights up against right now. Where we're up against the threat of our sovereignty. We're up against threat of economic, deep economic hardship for working class people. We can't cede any of this line that we've put out and that we've continued to educate on. And I mean, the impacts on Indigenous women and girls and two-spirit in our country are tremendous. You know, the forced sterilization, most people still don't even know that that is a thing, that that has happened, is happening to  the best of everyone's ability that's trying to stop it. The depth of racism that Indigenous women and Black women and immigrant women face when they enter into an emergency room, into a doctor's office, that still persists. And it's a whole bunch of stereotypes and a mishmash of settler colonial kind of ideology that continues to have doctors and medical professionals go through their entire training and not learn about this, not understand not to do this, right? Or if they do, it's like such a tiny little portion of their training that it's dismissed by most of them. And that needs to change because when you look at what's shocking to me is still like birth evacuation policies in Indigenous communities because they don't have gynecological services. And so they're forced to leave their home community to go and deliver their child. And that is still happening. It speaks to the unequal access.

 And why is that happening? That would not happen in downtown Toronto. That would not happen in working class white communities like Hamilton. That would not happen there. And so those are the inequities of the racism. And I also think for Black women, we've seen in the States a lot of studies, and perhaps under Michelle Obama and under others, looking at the impact of racism in health care for women, for Black women.

 And the studies that came out saying that they're three times more likely to die during childbirth or pregnancy. We have no such race-based data within our country. We're continually pushing for the improvement of this data. And I don't know why, but it doesn't matter which government, which stripe it is it seems to be in. We still lack this data. And we know that Black women are dismissed about their pain. There are myths and things that persist about abortion generally but absolutely about the reproductive lives of Indigenous women and Black women and queer women and gender diverse and people with... Even having this conversation about trans people within the labour movement is still subject to pushback. Like, we're pushing hard, but within our own membership there exists all these stereotypes and anti-trans sentiments that we're fighting very hard against through education.

 But they continue and so until all of us are being treated equally, we have to continue to fight. We have to continue to call it out and point it out and be allies in that space to give space to people who need to bring those issues forward and raise them. And so for me, it's about just amplifying those voices and never looking at it without the intersectionality that Carolyn talked about. Like we can't look at this as in that way because then we end up with a whole lot of women who are just even left behind where we are right now. So, so much work to do. And I think that Canadians generally, again, perhaps abortion rights themselves think this isn't an issue, think that racism isn't happening like this in Canada, that it isn't being experienced in the healthcare system like this, that immigrant people are not experiencing that. And it is still...

 I think just a huge job that we have to do. And I'm proud that in the labour movement, we tackle it constantly within our own members, within our leadership, within our spaces like Carolyn was talking about earlier, where we bring resolutions and have debates because we must continue that work to be equal.

 Carolyn Egan 

Yeah, if I may just add, that I know at this International Women's Day in Toronto, which is usually a good, a great rally and a great march of 8,000 people or something like that this year, and we gave a plaque, a recognition really to an Indigenous woman, Ursula Jacko, who was very involved in the earlier days of that coalition and she spoke very strongly at that time around the sterilization abuse that was experienced. 

 And she left Toronto and she went up to work at James Bay. And when she came back, and it was a while ago, she said, you know, Carolyn, the very first thing  that someone started talking to me about, woman up there, was the sterilization abuse. And it was a very moving moment because we presented her with plaque and her daughter was there. And it was just a wonderful moment. And just at that same time, there was a gathering of something like a hundred Indigenous was in, I think it was in Ottawa, talking about their experience of being coerced into sterilization. And she was talking about it back in the 80s and 90s. These women experienced then and people are still experiencing it now.  It may be not as, it's a government policy now as it may have been, it's certainly, but it's still existing. I think people like Sharona Hall, was a founder of the Black Action Defense Committee and was very involved in the abortion rights movement. She's passed away now, a number of years ago. Joan Grant Cummings, was one of the founders. Sharona was a founder of the Black Action Defense Committee, finding police killings of black people. And yet this was a big issue for her as well. The Black Action Defense Committee spoke at our rallies because they knew who was being affected. Joan Grant Cummings, she was a founder of Women's Health and Women's Hand. She has moved back to Jamaica.

 You know, these are the issues that they were bringing out then, and these are the issues that still exist now. And I think if you look at all of the deportation of the international students who've come over and because Canada flew them over, come work, stay, we want you here. And now once their permits are ended, off they go, they're going to be deported. That's more than Trump is trying to deport in a year, if you can believe that. And many of them don't have healthcare. Many, many, many don't have healthcare. And we've certainly been seeing people in that circumstance and trying to get them access, for example. So it's a very, very, very real issue. And I think it can't be ignored. And this is, this is the fight we're up against. And, and because when Roe v. Wade was overturned, there was a whole slate of information and everyone was very interested. What's the status here in Canada, etc.? And then lost it for a period time. And it was very, very important because the problems that exist here were becoming real again to the broader Canadian public. But once that tied down, we don't see it. 

 Also, as Tracey said, I remember well, prior to the Morgentaler decision, we used to send all kinds of women down to Buffalo to get the procedure because they could not get it here. They'd have to pay for it, but they needed it. They went. Luckily, the northern states, there's a lot of access across the country, but not everywhere. And they've been to date at least able to deal with the circumstances in that country. But we said at that time, you helped so many women. Canadians who needed access to abortion in those days before the Morgentaler decision. And we will do everything we can to provide that same to you. The border doesn't exist for us in terms of this. And that's a very important point as well.

 Tara 

Thank you. Thank you for that. I feel like I should ask a follow-up question for listeners who may not be aware as you've both brought up the history of forced sterilization. And I think you're entirely correct about that, Tracey, that people are not aware that that was is a reality faced by people in the Canadian healthcare system. Can you speak a little bit about that? I'm sure we could spend a very long time talking about it. So I apologize in advance that we won't be able to get into it too deeply, maybe in another episode. For our listeners who really need to know about this, can you talk a little bit about what that history entails? 

 Tracey Ramsey

Yeah, it's a shameful history. And I can't even say it's a history because I'm not confident that it's not still happening today. In particular in some rural communities and areas where perhaps people don't have access to the information that it's being stopped. Because if that isn't being shared in your community, then it's difficult to know that you can push back. Quite frankly, this was happening without their consent. Like it's not as though they were consenting to the sterilization. This was happening without their consent. So imagine you go into your gynecologist's office. We've all been in this situation where we're in the exam room, we're in the stirrups, they're examining us, they're discussing what they're doing, and they're doing what, really? What do we know that they're doing? We're trusting them as our doctors. We trust them when they say, you need to have this procedure, and you're going to go to the hospital and have this procedure, and then only to find out later that you've been sterilized. That that's your reality when you're trying for fertility, to realize that that's what's happened to you. And I also thin when we look at Indigenous women in particular, the sterilization issue is is massive. And it also involves women in incarceration, where we know that Indigenous women and Black women are overrepresented. But certainly Indigenous women are extremely overrepresented in that system where it happened. And then also, you know, when we think about things like the 60s scoop or the relationship with racialized and Indigenous communities with the child welfare system, it is extremely fraught and dangerous, dangerous for them who have had their children taken. I think most Canadians know about residential schools and children being taken into that horrific system that's been well exposed, but these reproductive injustices have not been exposed across the country and they need to be. I'm deeply forever grateful to the brave women and organizations that have spoken out and tried to educate others about this happening within our country and it needs to stop. And again, we go back to the medical community and why is it that they're just absolved from their participation in this? Why aren't there criminal cases against the doctors and medical professionals that sterilize these women? Much like we see in the residential school system where there's no justice against the religious communities that were running them or the individuals that were responsible for the torture and the behavior. We see this again and that is just deep racism that exists. Because again, if this was a community of white women that were sterilized by a couple of doctors within the community, the whole country would be up in arms. And that is not the reality for Indigenous women and girls and they need this to be known across the country. People need to speak about it and speak out against it.

 Tara

Thank you. Thank you for sharing about that. It is super important to bring to people's awareness. So I appreciate that. I hope we can do more on the podcast to do that. 

 Tracey

I would just say Tara too, I am not an expert by any means in this. I am attempting to be an ally and learning as much as I can about it. But I would go to the Native Women's Association of Canada. I would look to what's happening in different provinces.

 There are many leading voices on this issue and I would absolutely go to them to learn more about it. But I think a very simple Google search would find some of those incredible advocates who are on the front lines of trying to end this practice. 

 Tara

Okay. Thank you. Thank you so much. I really appreciate that and we will follow up possibly with another episode dedicated to that and hopefully involving some of those courageous people that you've mentioned.

 I'm aware of the time and thank you so, so much for taking time out of your day to talk to us. I want to start to wrap up and maybe just to put out a question to you both. What is something that you would like listeners to take away from today? Listeners that could include policymakers. What do we need in terms of advocacy going forward if a listener is interested in following up on something and getting involved? Where do you recommend that they put their energies at this time?

 Carolyn Egan 

I mean, I could say certainly they could go to the Abortion Rights Coalition. That's the national organization and has affiliated groups across the country, probably in every province. And they could look there and anyone could educate themselves on what the key issues of the moment are. But also get in contact in Ontario, I know best, whether it's Niagara or it's Ottawa, wherever you may be, you'll be able to find someone to get in contact with and get actively involved. If you're on a campus, there, for the most part, are reproductive justice groups on most of the campuses. If you're a young person, and I think if you're in a trade union, a lot of the women's committees certainly see this as part. It's not the only thing that they're doing, but they could certainly connect there. There's an awful lot that's going on in that sense. But I think also just sort of doing all they can to educate yourself about the circumstance and wherever you may be active politically or in a faith community or wherever. Just in your conversation with people, just let them know that the access is still quite limited. It may seem not so if you're in a major city. But it is so limited. And who does not have the access? And I think those questions, parts of conversations, because people are shocked sometimes to hear and they don't know. And if they did know they'd be extremely sympathetic. I believe in the goodness of most people. Most of us are progressive and I think people will respond. And I think that certainly when you look at the individual circumstance, look, you can go to Action Canada, can go to Abortion Rights Coalition, as I said, and you can find out what the circumstances are in your own community and see what's necessary. Do people have to go farther afield and what can you do about that? Put pressure on your local hospital or whatever, about making available a more reproductive choice for people in their areas. But I think also when, whether it be election time or non-election time, politically have these issues there on your agenda. And if you're celebrating International Women's Day or whatever type of work that you may be doing with a community that you think would be willing to push on this, I think bring it to them because we started from nothing. Started from way back when a handful of people in a room and we just said something's got to be done. And then you just go out and you start doing it. You don't have to leave it to experts. You don't have to leave it to the politicians. You just start doing it. And I'm not saying every struggle is going to win just because you choose to do it, but many, many instances, if you do the work, you connect with others, it can make a huge difference because if we were able to win it, then we have the capacity to keep what we have and to push forward. And so I think those who are interested, there's lots of resources out there. As I said earlier, we didn't have the internet. We didn't have all these connections that we have now. It's easier today. It may not feel that way, but it is. And I think we're up against tough, tough enemies, if I may put it that way. We know that. They want to destroy everything we fought for and won. And we just have to gather our strength, fight back. And I think it's there for people to get engaged, allow yourself to be inspired, right?

 Tara 

Beautiful. Beautiful. Thank you. Tracey, anything to add there? 

 Tracey Ramsey

It's like note to self, don't follow Carolyn Egan because she's so wonderful. I could just listen to her forever. Same. Yeah. We've touched on the history. Carolyn has shared things. We've touched on the issues of today and kind of what the focus is and what we feel that it should be in the direction it should go in.

 Of course, your own homework and all the organizations that Carolyn mentioned. Action Canada, in particular, has wonderful social media. Follow them because they do wonderful graphics. They connect it to everything.  Really great work coming out of there. 

 And I wouldn't be doing my job if I didn't plug our own campaign. We've got a reproductive justice campaign at Unifor that has a federal link to your member parliament. And then each province has a list of us, which is a little bit different based on the province and territory that you're from. So please check that out as well. 

 And I think you can find some good people in your community, like Carolyn is saying, when we had our first protest after the overturning of Roe v. Wade, people just organically came. And so you will find those allies within your community fairly easily because they're very interested in ensuring that our rights are upheld and that access is expanded in our country. And I think just talking about it. Having the conversations because that secrecy and that silence does none of us any good. It really doesn't. That is not the thing that is going to improve the access or improve the situation that we have, nor is it going to help women reach their economic potential. 

 None of these things can happen if we don't continue to talk about it and shine a light on it, no matter how uncomfortable it is for some people to have those conversations. And that destigmatization is really, really important. And I think very healing for a lot of people who've been on their own silent journey without being able to share that with others and normalize it. Abortion is healthcare. It is healthcare. We need to normalize that. And I am hopeful that in generations to come, we'll see these advances, we'll see the expansion of access, but just plug into that community of people that you have and don't give up. It's something that will be lifelong work, I think, and well worth doing for the generations that are coming behind us as well. 

 Tara

Beautiful. Thank you. Thank you both so much. That's it for today's episode. I want to thank you for joining us, but not just that. On a personal level, deepest thanks for the work that you both have done and are still doing. I feel very moved speaking with you today and thinking about all that you've given to cause for humans, for people. Just a sincerest thanks from me and from the Humanist Canada group that puts on this podcast. 

 We want to encourage our listeners to learn more about the Ontario Coalition for Abortion Clinics, Unifor Women in particular, the campaign Reproductive Justice Now, which Tracey was just mentioning. It's a beautiful website with very easy to fill out, get involved in the campaign. So send an email to your MPP and MP. We'll list that website in the show notes with other resources. 

 And please email us at choicechat@humanistcandidate.ca if you want to share your story, ask a question, or have an idea for a topic that you'd like to hear covered. We want to thank you for being with us. Thank you for listening. And until next time.

 Remember, abortion is healthcare and in Canada, it's right. Bye bye for now.

 Thanks for listening to Choice Chat, a Humanist Canada podcast about choice, dignity and reproductive justice. If you have an abortion story you'd like to share, in your own voice or anonymously, we welcome you to reach out. Do you have a topic you'd like us to explore? Email us at choicechat@humanistcanada.ca or connect with us on social media.

 We believe that by speaking truthfully and listening with care, we help shift the conversation. Because abortion is health care. Language matters and silence serves no one. Talking about it is how we change everything and we're grateful you've joined us. Keep the conversation going with your friends, your family, your community. Say the word. Share the truth and break the silence.