Abortion as Ordinary Healthcare: Changing the Culture

Abortion as Ordinary Healthcare: Changing the Culture

Choice Chat’s Culture & Abortion mini-series examines how abortion is shaped by the culture around us.

In the first episode, Dr. Shannon Stettner discusses abortion culture in Canada, including stigma, silence, identity, religion, politics, and the need to understand abortion as ordinary healthcare. In the second episode, Rachel Cairns will explore abortion through the arts — books, television, movies, and theatre — and consider how stories shape public understanding of abortion.

In this episode of the Choice Chat podcast, host AJ Ware speaks with Dr. Shannon Stettner, editor of Without Apology: Writings on Abortion in Canada and co-editor of Abortion: History, Politics, and Reproductive Justice after Morgentaler.

Together, they explore abortion in Canada not only as a legal or medical issue, but as part of our lived cultural experience. Dr. Stettner challenges the silence and stigma that still surround abortion and asks what it would mean to treat abortion as ordinary healthcare rather than as something exceptional, shameful, or hidden.

The conversation makes space for the complexity of real abortion experiences. A person may feel relief, grief, certainty, conflict, or several emotions at once. None of that makes their decision less valid. A healthier abortion culture would allow people to speak truthfully, receive support without judgment, and understand abortion as part of sexual and reproductive health.

This episode is a thoughtful and urgent contribution to reproductive justice in Canada. Abortion is healthcare, but culture shapes whether people feel supported, judged, isolated, or free to speak on their own terms.

RESOURCES 

Choice Chat Podcast — Humanist Canada 
Choice Chat is a podcast from the Morgentaler Committee of Humanist Canada that explores abortion, human reproduction, sexual health, dignity, choice, and reproductive justice in Canada.

Action Canada for Sexual Health and Rights — Access Line
A confidential national support service for sexual and reproductive health information, including abortion referrals and support.
Phone: 1-888-642-2725
Text: 613-800-6757
Email: access@actioncanadashr.org
Available daily from 9:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m. ET.

Abortion Rights Coalition of Canada
ARCC is a national pro-choice organization that works to protect and advance abortion rights and access in Canada through advocacy, public education, policy analysis, and coalition work.

Without Apology: Writings on Abortion in Canada
Edited by Dr. Shannon Stettner. This collection brings together activists, scholars, abortion providers, clinic support staff, and personal narratives to broaden the conversation about abortion in Canada.

Abortion: History, Politics, and Reproductive Justice after Morgentaler
Co-edited by Shannon Stettner and Kristin Burnett. This book examines abortion in Canada through history, lived experience, politics, law, medicine, and reproductive justice.

R. v. Morgentaler, 1988
The Supreme Court of Canada decision that struck down Canada’s abortion law and removed abortion from the Criminal Code.

After Tiller
A documentary discussed in the episode in relation to later abortion care, medical decision-making, and the power dynamics involved in how people are asked to explain or justify their need for care.

Government of Canada — Abortion in Canada
A federal information page with general information on abortion in Canada, available supports, and related resources.

Thanks for listening to Choice Chat, a Humanist Canada podcast about choice, dignity, and reproductive justice. We’re glad you’re here. Do you have a story to share? Do you want to suggest a topic? Email us at choicechat@humanistcanada.ca or connect with us on social media. We look forward to hearing from you. 

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Transcript

ABORTION AS ORDINARY HEALTHCARE: CHANGING THE CULTURE

Interview with Dr. Shannon Stettner 

AJ Ware (00:09)

You're listening to Choice Chat, a podcast from the Morgenthaler Committee of Humanist Canada. I'm your host, AJ Ware.

 In Canada, abortion is often understood as a settled issue. It is legal, publicly funded, and outside the criminal code. But legal status doesn't tell the whole story about the cultural forces that shape how abortion is understood, discussed, judged, or supported. In this episode, we look at abortion as part of Canada's lived cultural experience. Today, we are talking with Dr. Shannon Stettner.

 Dr. Stetner is a thoughtful and widely respected Canadian scholar whose work has helped people understand abortion not just as a legal or medical issue, but as something deeply connected to culture, identity, and everyday life. Her writing brings together academic insight, lived experience, and a strong commitment to reproductive justice in Canada. She is the editor of Without Apology: Writings on Abortion in Canada. And co-editor of Abortion History, Politics and Reproductive Justice after Morgentaler.

 Her work creates space for the human stories, social realities, and public conversations that shape how abortion is lived and understood in Canada. And we are thrilled for the opportunity to speak with her today. Dr. Stetner, welcome to Choice Chat. 

Dr. Stettner (01:44)

Thank you so much for having me. 

 AJ Ware (01:47)

In your intro to Without Apology, you say, even though, in theory, all women in Canada are entitled to make the decision to have an abortion,  women are not equally empowered to act on it. When we say that abortion in Canada is legally settled, but still culturally shaped, what does that mean? 

 Dr. Stettner (02:12)

So abortion hasn't been in the criminal code since 1988 with the Morgentaler decision. So almost 40 years. And so that's the part where I say, theoretically, abortion is accessible. If you only look at the looking at the fact that that there aren't prohibitions against it. But the practice is very different. Abortion is a lived experience, and it's negotiated very differently across the country by individuals who are encountering all kinds of access issues and who are still dealing with persistent stigma and who have to negotiate the healthcare system and the gatekeeping that still happens within the healthcare system, who are negotiating politics, and especially politics that is driven by moral or religious concerns. And, then on top of that, a whole host of identity categories that affect how all of those different components are experienced. And so, when we say that it's something that is culturally shaped, it what we're saying is that the individual lived abortion experiences are very different across the country on a person by person case. 

 AJ Ware (03:31)

Thank you for sharing that incredible insight. And I'm really curious about your bringing it down to the micro level of the person to person basis. We're talking about culture. But it's not just culture to culture or or area to area, that it's person to person is a very different experience for each individual who seeks an abortion. And I'm curious, what is particularly distinctive about abortion in Canada compared with other countries? And obviously, particularly the US? 

 Dr. Stettner (04:03)

So one of the defining characteristics of abortion in Canada is that we do not have a a federal abortion law. And that makes us pretty unique. But I think it's really important that that we underscore that it doesn't mean that there's an abortion free-for-all in this country. And I think that that idea gets conveyed a lot in some of the anti-abortion messaging that certainly that I've seen. Abortion is very well regulated in this country. It's regulated through the healthcare system. It's regulated by the provincial Colleges of Physicians and Surgeons who establish what the the practice of care is and what the ethics are around abortion procedures. And it's also regulated by individual physicians. Physicians aren't required to perform abortions. So, that's a choice to get that learning to provide the service. And then within that, physicians can draw their own lines in terms of the point to which they will or will not perform an abortion. 

 And so, there are a lot of different ways that abortion is regulated in this country outside of the criminal code. And so while it's correct to say we don't have a federal abortion law, it is still very much a regulated practice in this country. So, I would say that's one of the defining characteristics. We don't presently recognize fetal personhood and that certainly distinguishes us from the US. And I would think that those are probably the two main points. I guess the third one being that for a long time in this country, there has been overwhelming support for woman or a person's right to choose. And that's been and there's a public opinion poll and it is, I can't recall if it was nineteen sixty eight or nineteen seventy-three, but at that point in time, so quite a while ago, abortion was supported and it was a majority and it was a comfortable majority who perceived abortion as a private issue between a woman and her physician or a woman, her partner, and the physician. 

 And so, their the support for abortion in this country is longstanding, and it's significant. Especially in comparison to the US, where you see a much more closely divided country. And so, I think that longstanding majority support it really distinguishes us as a country. 

 AJ Ware (06:39)

Hearing that abortion in Canada has had broad public support for many decades, and that we are still hearing anti-abortion messaging, can you share in some of your experience, some of your research, what some of that messaging can look like? 

 Dr. Stettner (06:55)

Sure.  The one thing that jumps out to me right now, because I've been doing a lot of thinking about this as a concept lately, is this idea that abortion harms women. I've been contemplating whether I want to write another book on abortion. And so, what got my attention, so I started looking through at recent publications. And there's this, it's called a street level history of abortion in the United States. So I started, I just looked at the sample -- sneak peek. And I started reading in the introduction there. And the introduction was talking about there's not a lot of poetry written about abortion, but it was talking about some of the poetry that that has been written about abortion. And it was saying that because the authors express themes that are common in anti-abortion messaging, that they are supporting or underscoring those themes. 

 So, for example, it's talking about the loss. The sense of grief that that poet experienced through her abortion experience or experiences. And I think that that to me really speaks to a problem within the abortion discussion as a whole. And I don't think it's just the anti-abortion side, but I do think it's predominantly the anti-abortion side. And it's that it's the lack of nuance that we allow in the discussion. So this idea that abortion harms women gets reinforced because of the deliberate erasing of that nuance. And it doesn't allow for the fact that people can have multiple emotional reactions to an abortion, and they can have conflicting emotional reactions. So, someone can grieve a pregnancy that they purposefully terminated and still know that that was the right decision. And so rather than sitting with the that sort of complexity, what I see in the anti-abortion or anti-abortion messaging is these absolutes and and the the abortion harms women is is I think one of the most common or predominant absolutes.

 AJ Ware (09:06)

And I can see how that messaging could be really pervasive in lots of different conversations, not necessarily just in a paid advertisement or some sort of written document or signage or whatever, but that it can exist at this at this pervasive level that becomes a more complex and harmful statement for people seeking abortions. Thank you for that.

 Dr. Stettner (09:32)

Yeah. And to follow up, what's really interesting, when I edited 
 Without Apology, I was I really wanted to add some nuance into the discussion. And so, I included some narratives about abortion where the the author, one in particular where the author had really sort of struggled with with their abortion. And I knew that that in doing so, I was I was opening, you know, the door to criticism. And in fact, on I think it was on Google Reads, I found someone who commented on it. And they were marking up Without Apology to show all the places where it underscored their messaging. And it's frustrating because you know, when you want to have a more nuanced and thoughtful conversation that there is resistance to it, but it does. It really shows sort of how that kind of messaging that is twisted and harmful. 

 AJ Ware (10:26)

And that nuance that you're speaking of is so important in this conversation that we're having today about culture. And how culture lives alongside identity, politics, medicine, all of the it's not just one thing. 

So, why is it so important to examine abortion through this lens of power, gender, ideology, identity, not just law, not just medicine? 

 Dr. Stettner (10:55)

Sure. Well, I mean, power shows up in all facets of our lives, right? Like, there's, I don't think there's an arena where power is isn't a factor. And so, power when you're talking about abortion is is talking about, you know, who has the right to make those decisions and who has the right to you know, set the limits or the rules around abortion. So, it's important to understand power because otherwise, if we don't understand that power is always in play, then we think that access to abortion is equal across the board. And, it's not. It's very unequal in this country. So that is why examining power is so important. If we're looking at gender, then what is important about gender in this discussion is understanding the expectations, the cultural expectations that still exist around motherhood, around caregiving, around sexual responsibility or promiscuity perceptions of promiscuity, right? Because we still see the pregnancy as punishment themes happening. And, the idea about that there should be some level of self-sacrifice, right? Like that continuing in unwanted pregnancy is expected because there's this idea that women are supposed to subjugate their own their own wants or needs or lives or you know whatever in order to be become parents and that's your mothers in particular, right? That's still a predominant cultural narrative. 

It's important to look at ideology because there's certain messaging or narratives around abortion that also dominate, right? Like there's this idea still, still today that abortion should be tragic, that it's something that's private and hidden, that abortion needs to be justified.  That there are markers in these narratives that need to be met in order for an abortion to be acceptable. And these are all ideas that are produced, right? They're produced within our culture and within our society. They're not they don't just happen to exist. They're being produced.

And so that's why we we examine language and the and that's one thing that I've done in my writing in particular look at how abortion is talked about because that those language choices are really important. And, then when we talk about identity, I mean there's so many different identity categories that really critically affect the abortion experience. So, race and indigeneity and class and immigration status and disability and age. All of these affect how abortion is experienced in this country. And again, it underscores that idea that just because abortion is not illegal in this country doesn't mean it's freely or equally accessible. And so, we have to study all these variables to understand the very real access issues that persist in this country.

AJ Ware (14:12)

The, what you said about how power just influences everything. And hearing that there's a spoken or unspoken narrative of that abortion, we like to say abortion is healthcare, but for some, abortion does not equal healthcare. Abortion equals a moral failure. When we talk about abortion as a moral failure, we're talking about power. And the access simply being legal does not make access equal.

 Dr. Stettner (14:41) 

Exactly. 

AJ Ware (14:42) 

Can you mention newcomer status, race, class? How do identity markers such as race, class, immigration, disability, age, religion, geography, gender identity shape abortion experiences in Canada? 

Dr. Stettner (14:59)

Sure. So, I mean, obviously I'm just touching on some points and it's not a comprehensive answer, but certainly when we're t thinking about race and indigeneity, we're talking about long histories, colonial histories with the healthcare system in this country. Where a lot of, you know, indigenous people and other racialized people didn't experience freedom of choice within the system, didn't experience informed consent. And so, when they encounter the healthcare system, there's not only that history of abuse for many people there is a lot of distrust. And so that would obviously affect the way that people experience abortion in the country or across the country. Class is a really significant and there's been a lot of work done on how class affects the abortion experience. And if you think about it in really practical ways, the ability to get time off work, to be able to afford to take time off work is a huge factor. You have to have access to transportation. And this becomes a big issue when you live in a rural area or when you live in a city or an area that doesn't have a clinic or doesn't have a hospital or may only have one hospital performing abortions. You have to sometimes travel many hours to access. So, you're losing like a full or maybe two days of work. And so it's having to take that time off and perhaps arrange childcare if there if there are existing children. And then there's the privacy issue on top of that. And because not everyone's workplace is going to allow you just to take time off without explaining why you need the time off. 

 And so what we see with in the instance of class is that there are delays so that abortions are happening later in the pregnancy. And so, that increases the risk. Now the risk is not huge. Abortion is, you know, pretty safe procedure, but certainly risks increase the longer the pregnancy progresses. And so, that delay is because of those, various class issues is really important. 

In terms of immigration status, that can affect people's abortion experiences in a lot of different ways. There can be a lack of provincial healthcare coverage. There can be out-of-pocket costs. There can be language barriers. There can be fear of even just using the healthcare system or using the government systems, the government support because of what that's like in the countries that people have come from. And so, there are all kinds of ways that immigration status can affect the experience, including also cultural competency, right? And we don't, you know, and that doesn't always exist. And and so that that's another factor. 

In terms of geography, I I mentioned a little bit about geography. A lot of the abortion clinics are centered in Ontario and Quebec and in, you know, the southern parts of those those provinces. And so, people in Toronto are are well serviced by abortions, but people elsewhere in the country don't have abortion access close to them. And so, again, it's the it having to travel, having to arrange their lives around, accessing the services. Also it and this obviously affects the northern and remote parts of the country as well. 

But the other thing that is really key here is the lack of privacy. So when you live in remote places, again, there might be a a local hospital that performs abortion, but that that then eliminates any kind of right to privacy that you might have or hope or expectation for privacy. 

And if we think about sort of gender identity, gender diverse people can face the the misgendering, you know, intake forms might not have the appropriate language on them, a fear of harassment, or they might you might be faced with providers who who haven't had adequate gender affirming care. And so that's another way that we see identity categories playing out. And the thing that's important to keep in mind, of course, is that many times people have multiple intersecting identities, right? So it's not just one or the other. It's it's multiple they you know, they're race and class and geography, for example, could you know they could be facing all of those. 

And so we start to see how abortion experiences be can become really complicated. And if we go back to the, you know, to what I said at the beginning, like we tend not to look at things at the individual level. But when you start thinking about these intersecting identities, we start to see how an awareness of that individual level care is actually really important.

 AJ Ware (20:18)

So many beautiful things to reflect on here. And I'm conscious of the this intersection of class and multiple identity. Thinking about how someone who might be seeking an abortion living in a rural area might be thinking about privacy. There may not be a clinic nearby. The abortion itself might be covered by OHIP. But the travel to the clinic. The time off work. The gas money to get there or a flight in some cases is so restrictive that a person might find themselves having to make some, in addition to the choice that they're making about their body and their needs and their wants, they're making choices about their finances, about their work, about who to tell, about how to make this happen. Not just that they know they are ready, they know they want it, but how to make it happen. Such challenges. I'm also reflecting on, you said earlier, about how doctors have individual rights and ability to make decisions on whether, at what point during a pregnancy, with whom they will perform an abortion. And when you speak about language barriers, about access to OHIP, about age, about gender identity, about the decision-making power that the doctor has. Once you make it to the clinic, pay you to get there, get out of work, do the things you need to do, once you get there, you may still encounter a doctor who has other choices that they're able to make about whether or not you can access the abortion. Am I hearing that correctly? 

Dr. Stettner (22:16)

Well, I think that that happens before. For example, to you this and this is an American example, but if you've ever seen the documentary “After Tiller”, it follows four abortionists in the United States who provide late-term abortions. And there's a really interesting case in there. One of the doctors, and she in in the course of the documentary gets a phone call. I think it's from France. So, there are not a lot of doctors who perform late-term abortions. And so, when they have someone call to make an appointment for a late term abortion, what she's looking for is a compelling reason, like a compelling story. And what struck me about that is people can have compelling reasons. And maybe they're not a good storyteller. And so, like to me, that was just that was such a crystallizing moment in the documentary because you shouldn't have to be a good storyteller, you know? And that's where you get things like the language barrier coming in and being a problem. And, or maybe they're just not a good storyteller. But that doesn't mean that their story or their reasons are any less compelling. But there is this power that exists. And I'm not saying it shouldn't exist because, I think for the people performing late term abortions, like they, you know, they should be setting, you know, they have to do what is right also for them. But it's such a such a fine line and it's it's such a hard, a hard decision to make. In the case of Canada, my hope is that my hope is, and and I can't say with certainty, that before traveling, my understanding is typically the abortion is arranged before the traveling happens. So not not traveling and then being turned back, but still you're still having to negotiate all of the same hurdles in order to access the care. 

AJ Ware (24:15)

Thank you for clarifying that. And though there is some comfort in knowing that once a person arrives, that they are they have an appointment, the agreement has been made between the doctor and the abortion seeker. I still reflect on the process that that person goes through to get to that appointment and the multiple barriers that exist that that can impact them along the way.

As a podcast that is run by the Morgentaler Committee of the Humanist Association of Canada, we are obviously curious about how religion, religious traditions, influence abortion attitudes in what is formally a secular culture, but again speaks to the individuality of this experience. So, how do religious traditions show up in the conversation about abortion attitudes in Canada?

Dr. Stettner (25:19)

So, I think as I mentioned, so religion is a much less significant factor in Canada than it is in the United States. And that's not to say it's not a factor, it still is. But in the US, evangelical Christianity in particular is quite powerful when it comes to the abortion issue. In  Canada, the churches have declined in authority over the second half of the 20th century and into the present day. So, it's not as big a factor. However, I think that a lot of anti-abortion movement is very much in this country is very much connected to or affected by those religious beliefs. So, what we need to be mindful of in this country is that conservative Christianity, the sort of more evangelical Christianity, still is a driving force. And it's something that we need to be mindful of. There is an anti-abortion group right now in Canada who is focused on electing anti-abortion politicians. That's their goal. And because they want to mimic what happened in the US. They want there to be enough anti-abortion politicians in the country so that they can introduce a law, to reintroduce a law. And so there is an effort to elect these candidates that do have more conservative Christian leanings. And and so for example, Sam Osterhoff, who's out of the Niagara region, I believe is the first candidate that was elected by this group or who supported his election. And so, I think we we need to be mindful of that as as a strategy, as an anti abortion strategy going.

AJ Ware (27:16)

Shannon, thank you for sharing all of that incredibly insightful information about real impacts that we're seeing in Canadian politics. I'm curious, there how the has the even further, how has the Canadian context in abortion discourse been impacted by the overturn of Roe v. Wade in the US? 

Dr. Stettner (27:38)

So, there are a few things I can say about that. One is, and I've been waiting for someone to do this research. So maybe someone listening will do this research. I think I've read a single newspaper article about it. And that is, you know, we are aware of money coming up from the US into Canadian activist organizations. And so, I would really like for someone to look into that more closely because that should alarm all Canadians, right? Having American influence on Canadian politics directly through the funding of ideas that aren't historically popular in this country should alarm Canadians. What the fall of Roe v. Wade showed us was that that nothing is firm, right? Like that that politics are always changing. And it's important to remain vigilant. And so when I say, you know, we should be mindful that there are organizations that are trying to elect members of parliament who are anti-abortion, like that is again one of those trends that we should be watching. We should be paying close attention to. In Canada, we have a habit since 1988 of being reactive and not proactive when it comes to protecting abortion rights. So when there is a new law is proposed, then you'll see a flare-up. But there is a lot, there are there are a small number of activists who work very hard continuously, but they are not often joined by others on a broader level, except at the those moments when the rights seem to be at risk. And what we need in this country is a more sustained effort.

And I think it's really important too, as a country, that we don't get complacent because there is this tendency to say, well, I mean, that's what it's like there, but it's not what it's like here. And so complacency is really dangerous. And too, like comparison is problematic because there are lots of places across Canada where access is not good.

And so we shouldn't be patting ourselves on the back unless and or until access is even across the country and it's not. And so, I think it's a little bit dangerous to think of our own situation as good in comparison to the US because there are a lot of ways where we can improve, and there's a lot of different angles that we need to pay attention to.

AJ Ware (30:12)

That piece about complacency feels really relevant to me. That there's, when things are good enough, it's easy to accept that we are good enough. And we're certainly not that bad. See, we've seen bad. We're certainly not that bad. But it feels like it that feels like an important thing for those of us, not just for those of us podcasting and researching and talking about this. But for our listeners, for people in their everyday lives to be considering that the rights that are enjoyed in Canada aren't permanent. Shannon, this insight that you're providing is so valuable. And you shared relevant and important examples and gaps in access to abortion in Canada. So, I'm wondering what, as you know in this field, in your vast imagination, what would a healthier abortion culture look like in Canada? 

 Dr. Stettner (31:21)

So, I think there are several components. One of them being that abortion is ordinary health care. We need to stop conceptualizing it as something that is unique or exceptional. There are somewhere approximately around a hundred thousand abortions a year in Canada. And I know that that varies a little bit each year, but if you do the calculation, it works out to close to 300 abortions a day. If you think about the number of people in your life who you know have had an abortion, I'm gonna say that to probably a pretty small number of people. 

 And that's connected to the next point, which is we need much less silence around this issue. And that shows up in different ways. We need to talk about abortion all the time. I think about all the things that I could or should do. And I thought  there should be like a blog like up that talks about abortion every single day as an everyday issue in Canada. And because it's happening every single day. It's happening hundreds of times over. 

 And related or a part of that silence is the, obviously there's still a lot of stigma and there's a lot of shame, but it's also how we treat people following an abortion. So, when someone has an abortion. If you actually know a friend or a family member who has an abortion, how are you treating them after the abortion? That is my question. Are you talking to them about the pregnancy? Are you offering support? 

 When people have a miscarriage, they're allowed to grieve. But when someone ends a pregnancy on purpose, they're not allowed to grieve, right? Because it's seen as being, well, it was their choice. And yes, it was, but a lot of times, you know, people make the decision to have abortion for often very complicated reasons or complex reasons. Sometimes it's very easy and straightforward, but sometimes it's not. And we need to allow, again, that issue of nuance. We need to allow that complexity of feeling. You can grieve the abortion and still believe it was the right thing. And those conflicting emotions need to be allowed to exist. People who have abortions need to be allowed to express that. And right now, in our society and our culture, they're not because it's a choice. And so, even the people who surround the person who's had an abortion are not supporting or often not supporting them in the ways that they need to be supported. And that is, you know, I think is something that that needs to change. 

 And I would say that's probably the biggest change that needs to happen if we're gonna we're gonna start conceiving of abortion as an everyday occurrence. I think we need to sort of move past, and I don't think it's as bad as it once was, but I mean, maybe I'm just being hopeful here, but we need to move past this idea of good and bad abortions, right? And, this idea that some reasons are more valid or acceptable. We need to focus on equity in practice. And so, we need equal access across the country. And we need to address those equity issues that persist. And we need to be respectful of a diversity of abortion experiences. There is no one abortion experience. If you ask me to say what is the dominant abortion experience, there isn't one.

 There again, we’re going back to that sort of individualized experience of abortion because people are different and they're complex and they make these decisions for all kinds of reasons. I don't have to personally like someone's reason for choosing to have an abortion. I support their right to have an abortion. And, I think we need to move past this idea that we need to be we need to approve of every aspect of someone's life. And so, you know, complexity and nuance, I think, is really what I'm asking for alongside that normalization. 

 Let's stop isolating abortion. 

 Let's stop isolating people who have abortions. 

 Let's talk about it. 

 Let's give them the room to talk about it if they want to.

AJ Ware (36:10)

Because when we isolate the stories of abortion, we isolate the person as well. And what I'm hearing is that this continued stigmatization, this continued othering of people who seek abortions, people who get abortions continues to silence not just the whole story, which absolutely, when you say the number, you know, a hundred thousand per year, three hundred per day, that is such a normalizing number. 

 I wonder if for those for people listening to hear that and think in my own experience, I perhaps I'm not as alone as I feel. And that to amplify these experiences, to amplify these stories rather than shunting them to the side to silencing them out of stigma, shame is to in itself increase the health of our abortion culture in this country. 

Dr. Stettner (37.13)

Right. And I think it's really important to recognize, like I'm not saying, if you've had an abortion, then you're required to go out and tell your story. In fact, like I would say normalizing it is not having to perform your story. Normalizing it might come out just in passing, right? When I had an abortion, this, or that was the year I had an abortion, you know? And that is how you normalize it. Is the through the talking about it as again, going back to that ordinary, regular, everyday healthcare decision, because it is being made a hundred thousand times a year, right?

AJ Ware (37:55)

That feels so important. We hear, we tend to hear abortion stories performed on stages, on podcasts, in books, written in articles, as something that is exceptional. And you're talking about the normalization of it would mean that someone can refer to it in a daily conversation as a part of their life that doesn't have to be poetically stated or surrounded by pomp and circumstance, that it is simply a part of their experience, as are many other parts of their experience. 

Dr. Stettner (38:37)

Exactly.

AJ Ware (38:41)

Shannon, this topic is full of so many stories, of so much nuance, of so much subtlety, of power, of choice, of abortion seekers taking their own power, and of those who experience power over as a barrier to their choices. It's complex. It is unfinished, and it is not to be taken for granted as permanent part of our Canadian culture.

All that said, what gives you hope in this work? 

Dr. Stettner (39:21)

Well, it's interesting because what gives me hope is not specifically happening in abortion work right now, but I think it's where we can go. If you look at someone going through perimenopause, I can tell you I was not prepared for perimenopause because no one ever spoke about perimenopause, right? And so all of these things started happening, and you're kind of like, what the heck's going on? And, what is happening right now within the last year or two is Gen X women are talking about perimenopause all over the place. They're talking about it all over social media. There are even male partners of women going through perimenopause who have started to post about perimenopause as they're learning to cope with it. And I think what is happening is a really like a cultural change, like a moment of cultural change that I think is so interesting. And, it is because people are talking about it. 

And so, when I say we need to talk about abortion in the same way to the same degree as something that happens to people every single day. I'm looking at what's happening with perimenopause, and it gives me hope that the same thing can happen with abortion. But again, we need to commit to talking about it. So, I hope that that is where we can see ourselves moving.

 AJ Ware (40:40)

That in the realm of reproductive health, that we have made strides in hearing, in talking about, in de-shaming perimenopause, menopause. And I'm even thinking about periods and endometriosis and PCOS and the multiple challenges that people with uteruses experience throughout their lives. And that the hope that you're finding that the conversation, and the normalization of abortion access follows that same path. I love that. That gives me hope too. That's great. 

So, Shannon, we've had a roving, roaming, beautiful conversation today. So informative and so wonderful. Keeping in mind the challenges, as well as the hope. Is there one thing that you would like our listeners to take away from today? 

 Dr. Stettner (41:45) 

I think for me, the key thing is the silence/isolation issue. I think we really need to talk about abortion. I think we need to understand it as an everyday issue. I think we need to understand that the people around us in our lives are family, coworkers, our neighbors are undergoing these experiences all the time. 

 Imagine what it could be like if you didn't have to go through this alone. And I think the only way that that is going to happen is if we move toward normalizing abortion and discussions about abortion so that we can end the isolation that surrounds the experience. 

AJ Ware (42:31) 

That's a beautiful statement. And I think such a valuable call to action, both for those who seek abortions, but especially for those who support those who seek abortions. 

Thank you, Dr. Shannon Stettner, for being with us today. This conversation is such an important reminder that even though abortion in Canada is legal and often treated as a settled issue, that does not mean it is fully accessible, culturally simple or equally experienced by everyone. Abortion is still shaped by the stories we tell, the communities we live in, the identities we carry, and the barriers some people continue to face. 

I hope this episode has offered a deeper way of thinking about abortion as part of Canada's lived cultural experience. Thank you for listening to Choice Chat. Please subscribe, share the episode, and join us for the next conversation in our culture and abortion series.

Producer (43:32)

 Thanks for listening to Choice Chat, a Humanist Canada podcast about choice, dignity, and reproductive justice. If you have an abortion story you'd like to share, in your own voice or anonymously, we welcome you to reach out. Do you have a topic you'd like us to explore? Email us at ChoiceChat@HumanistCanada.ca or connect with us on social media.

We believe that by speaking truthfully and listening with care, we help shift the conversation. Because abortion is healthcare. Language matters, and silence serves no one. Talking about it is how we change everything, and we're grateful you've joined us. Keep the conversation going with your friends, your family, your community. 

Say the word, share the truth, and break the silence.