Scaling Success: Chris Rediger's Journey Through Real Estate Tech and Business Growth

Chris Rediger, the Chief Revenue Officer of HouseCanary, joins with Jesse Burrell, on The Real SaaS Podcast to unravel the journey of building a transformative real estate software company. Chris shares his compelling story, from seizing opportunities during the 2008 financial crisis to his successful venture into the world of private equity. He emphasizes the importance of being prepared for an exit at any moment and having robust financials and processes in place. Our conversation sheds light on Chris's transition from Head of Product to overseeing revenue, highlighting how HouseCanary's accurate home valuation models have set them apart in the industry.

Chapters

• 0:00 Growing a Real Estate Software Company
• 4:52 Private Equity Selling Experience and Role
• 12:35 Journey of a Real Estate Software
• 26:19 Real Estate Software Growth and Profitability
• 31:25 Accelerated Pace of Technological Change
• 34:36 Data Insights for Business Growth
• 46:15 Streamlining Contracting and Account Management
• 58:54 Disruption in Real Estate Industry

Transcript

00:00 - Hope (Announcement)
What happens when you build a product that changes the game for institutional real estate, then realize it still isn't enough. On this episode of the Real SaaS Podcast, Jesse Burrell sits down with Chris Rediger, CRO of HouseCanary, a PropTech powerhouse with over $300 million raised and the industry's most accurate home valuation model. From founder burnout and failed SPACs to scaling through product-led growth and data standardization, Chris and Jesse drop raw, hard-earned insight on what it really takes to build and evolve a SaaS company in today's market. Welcome to the Real SaaS Podcast Real talk with the builders behind the most innovative SaaS companies in prop tech and beyond. We dig into product market fit, team building, funding failures and the playbooks driving growth. No fluff, just raw insights on strategy execution and what's coming next. Now here are your hosts. 

00:54 - Jesse Burrell (Host)
What is going on? Welcome to the Real SaaS Podcast real talk with the builders behind the most innovative SaaS companies in prop tech and beyond. We dig into product market fit, team building, funding playbooks to drive growth. This is no fluff, just raw insights on strategy execution and what's coming next. I'm your host, Jesse Burrell. I'm the CEO of Batch Service. We've done over $150 million in software sales since 2019. And I have an amazing guest with me today Chris. Welcome on to the show. 

01:31 - Chris Rediger (Guest)
Hey, thanks, Jesse, excited to be here.

01:33 - Jesse Burrell (Host)
I'm excited to have you on. We do have a pretty good relationship. We have known about each other's companies for about a year and a half. We're both doing some really cool shit in the prop tech space, so I am really excited to kind of dive in and dig and talk about some interesting topics. But before we get started, tell the audience a little bit about your journey, what you do at HouseCanary and maybe what got you there. Give about two to three minutes and dive on in and maybe what got you there. 

02:06 - Chris Rediger (Guest)
Give about two to three minutes and dive on in. Yeah, yeah, I'll start from the beginning. So back in 2008, I was working at JP Morgan and I realized that there's probably some opportunity in the residential real estate space. So I left and set up a fund, started flipping a lot of houses. I focused a lot on foreclosures and really flipped paper more so than actually taking the houses. 

02:27
I built a pretty big business around that

02:30 - Jesse Burrell (Host)
Yeah, nice Wholesaling is where I cut my teeth too. 

02:33 - Chris Rediger (Guest)
Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's like I'm guessing people about our age. It was a formidable beginning in our careers, going into 2008. So I ran that business for a while. Market shifted. I created some software that overlaid the process of flipping houses. I turned that into something that could go customer facing and scaled up a national brokerage that leveraged that software. So we sold houses in 27 states and we sold them for a flat fee. It was a very systematized approach to selling houses, sold that to private equity in 2020, in January of 2020. Congratulations, big timing as well. And played around for a little bit about a year and I knew the team at House Canary so they brought me on as a head of product, did that role for about four years and now I oversee a whole bunch of stuff, including revenue. So that's my three minute story. 

03:35 - Jesse Burrell (Host)
So you're the CRO for HouseCanary. 

03:39 - Chris Rediger (Guest)
Correct. Yeah, official title is CRO. There's a lot that gets packed into that, but basically everything that has to do with money and customers. 

03:47 - Jesse Burrell (Host)
So you wear all the hats. Yeah, just a few, just a few. Yeah, I actually had no idea that you have sold to private equity and you know there's going to be a future where I would like to, you know, exit batch to some degree and I don't know if that's going to be private equity or strategic. 

04:10
We're still probably years away from doing that, but you know it takes a long time to prep, so it's something that we're thoughtful about already. I feel like if I could give advice to anyone that's starting a company always be prepared and act as if you're going to sell, even if you really don't want to, because you never know if you may. But if you act as if you're going to sell, to actually sell a business that is a software as a service you have to be very buttoned up, with a lot of numbers, a lot of details, a lot of accounting, a lot of SOPs put in place and documented. So if I could give any advice, it is always act like you're wanting to sell, build your organization like you're going to sell, because it means you'll run that much more efficient. 

04:52
But my question for you is what was your private equity experience selling? Was it enjoyable? What made you decide to go with the people that you went with? What was that selling process like? And this is me just selfishly wanting to know. You know, what am I in for in the future and what does that look like? I've heard great stories and I have heard horrible stories. I'd love to hear yours. 

05:18 - Chris Rediger (Guest)
Yeah, well, mine's not pretty so, but I will double down on your recommendation. Uh, manage your business Like you sell it tomorrow. Right, it is imperative, like, always have a data room ready, always be ready for somebody to start checking out your business and looking for it, because you don't want to get stuck in a circumstance where you don't have everything put together and you have an opportunity to present itself. So great advice, double down on that. Uh, so so my my journey in opportunity to present itself so great advice, double down on that. So my journey in selling to private equity Back when I did this, spaces were super hot. 

05:53
So I was in the process of doing a reverse merger into a publicly traded shell and we were going to go SPAC. That process in and of itself is mind-blowing. Getting through audited financials, trying to get up listed and creating a public company from a private company was very, very difficult and very hard. So when all of that was said and done, I realized that it was better for us to just sell to private equity than to finish executing on that path. So we had a couple of PE strategics that were looking at us. We always knew it would be an exit. 

06:31
To be transparent, I didn't make any money off the deal. It packed into equity where I would have made money on the SPAC, and that was a huge mistake, right, I got founder fatigue big time. I was ready to pull the plug, I was ready to get out of it and, uh, I took the easy path and I lost a lot of money and private equity killed my baby. So, uh, yeah, I mean it's brutal. It's a choice I made and I, you know, looking back at it, it's like the choices you make when the bullets are flying, or the choices you're just going to make, right, and there's no good or bad or indifferent when you're in the heat of it. You're just making those choices. I would have done things differently, but, but I made very little cash. 

07:36 - Jesse Burrell (Host)
And, and then the equity in the company ended up going away after a couple other trades. So yeah, I actually fully understand that. Not saying I've gotten to that point, but I've gotten to if I were. You know, it's hard and seasons of business could be really tough. And there's at some points where I was going through a sale, at certain points in batch, to where I just like, I'd like just I'm good, like just I don't want to do it, I don't want the problems, it's tough. I could see why you went that route to do it. I don't want the problems, it's tough. I could see why you went that route. To some degree, owner fatigue and burnout as a founder is real. It's really real. 

08:14
So I appreciate you sharing the true story of what you went through, because not everyone's as open as you are. 

08:23 - Chris Rediger (Guest)
Yeah, I mean, a lot of people are like, oh, if you don't fail at a business, you don't know how to make a good business. And then the opposite you know famous Warren Buffett quotes like just run a failing business for a few years and you'll be the best manager ever. My business wasn't failing, but it wasn't thriving to the point that I wanted to. So that's what kind of tucked into the fatigue and it just turned into an attrition game. So you know, inevitably, like it was the call that was made, probably could have done things differently, especially with the timing of the market right after 2020. But it is what it is and I look at it as a very expensive education and I'm applying that education going forward. So yeah, yeah. 

09:06 - Jesse Burrell (Host)
So let's jump into. You know you founded a company. Now you, you got brought in to a company as a CRO, to where I'm assuming you have. You know, being a CRO, your whole role is growing. You know the company, your chief revenue officer, your, so you're you're wearing a lot of hats, you're doing a lot of things. I know you're you're a product guy as well. Um, so you're basically to. My assumption is like making sure products dial, but also, um, you have to be heavily involved, you know, with marketing and sales to make sure that that revenue is clipping off at a good point. What is you say? You wear a lot of hats. I'd love to dive in more of. I guess, what is HouseCanary? I know what it does, but tell the audience what house canary does and I guess, what your role is really on on day to day. What are your big responsibilities at house canary? 

09:59 - Chris Rediger (Guest)
Yeah yeah, HouseCanary is a unique company. It's a data and analytics company at its core. Canary is a unique company. It's a data and analytics company at its core. Our marquee product is our home valuation. So we've had a home valuation for 13 years. It's the highest rated, third-party tested, most accurate valuation on the market. So what I mean by that is it's not a Zestimate right. This is not an entertainment or marketing value to get people to click on your website. It's used in underwriting and a lot of large transactions, because we underwrite every property in the US every month. 

10:33
So a good use case is if a large publicly traded company wanted to sell 30,000 houses to another one, they would bring us in, we'd run the values on the whole thing, we'd tell them the risk associated to it, we'd really give them a good picture of this and we can do that instantaneously. That's great. So we also work a lot in the secondary market with MSRs, trade and just when home values are needed at scale, that's the core product of the company. So you can imagine we've amassed a lot of data to build those models. So we're really about a 70% data factory, 30% data aggregator and reseller. We're a 50 state broker. So we have access to a lot of other data sources that come in via those licenses. And then we've had a lot of other products that come off of that. So you know, one of our cool products that's kind of a fringe is called Come Home. It's a national home search. It's a real estate portal like similar to homes.com or Redfin, and we co-brand it and white label it with large banks and financial institutions. So we run the home search for, like Wells Fargo and Loan Depot, those companies out there. So that's again kind of another derivative data product we've built off of our core data asset. 

11:53
And then your second part of the question is interesting, like what does a day-to-day look like Got to make sure all the trains run on time. That's the first thing that I do, so overseeing all of sales and revenue and a lot of marketing as well. I also oversee all and this is one of those two hats where I really have to turn into like a Batman villain two-face when I'm doing this. So I run revenue, but I also run legal and compliance. So, yeah, and we have a lot of compliance coming in being that we, you know, work with large financial institutions, so we have to stay very regulated with SOC 2 and ISO and all the other compliance things that we need, as well as all of our data use licenses. And I also oversee our brokerage. We are brokerage, we do transactions, we do a lot of dispositions and then we do brokerage as a service for valuations for all of our customers. So, yeah, it's always sales primary. We like revenue, so we focus on that, and then everything else kind of falls in line with this time. 

12:57 - Jesse Burrell (Host)
So, yeah, that's pretty cool, yeah, and that makes sense because I know that we have some products that overlap and are adjacent to some degree. I'm glad that we got to hop on this because I didn't know the complexity of some of the other products that you have. I get to hear from my sales team on where we're able to. You know work with clients together and do stuff together and you know help each other out each other out with. We have different data sources and so on and so forth. That compliance thing makes more sense of what we're talking about. Before the call A little bit, I'm like okay, a level of compliance that you have to be with the type of companies that you're working with versus the type of customers that we're working with are two very different customer bases with the level of compliance that they they may or may not need. Um, I guess I do have a couple of questions. Um, that typically asks um about HouseCanary. Is, you know, did HouseCanary um, when? When were they originated? When did HouseCanary start? Uh? 

14:01 - Chris Rediger (Guest)
it started 2013, 2013. 

14:04 - Jesse Burrell (Host)
And do you know, if you know, how long did it take for the founder that started HouseCanary? What was his name? 

14:12 - Chris Rediger (Guest)
again, so we had two founders, Jeremy Sick lick and Chris Stroud. 

14:17 - Jesse Burrell (Host)
Okay For them. This question I always like to ask is how long did it take them to get product market fit? Because people think you just create this product and instantly you're making millions of bucks. That's typically not the case when building out software as a service. What did their journey look like those first few years and how tough was it for them? Or did they catch that quick product market fit? 

14:40 - Chris Rediger (Guest)
Yeah, I mean I would say we're still chasing product market fit and anyone who tells you otherwise is lying. So I mean for our core product, the valuation model right, it took a while. It's a huge data model right five years before that was kind of instituted into regular flows of businesses at scale where there was meaningful revenue behind it. There's a lot of hurdles. When I introduced the company I addressed one like not all valuation models are created equal. Some of them are right and some aren't, and ours is right. So getting that out into the market when there's other valuation models is difficult. So you know it's five years to get product market fit and you iterate on your products and create other products and you always seek it so you can always make it better. 

15:35
I mean, we've over the last, about five years ago from now, we introduced a lot of machine learning and AI image rec into properties, introduced a lot of machine learning and AI image rec into properties, right. So we added that into our model and now we've created a property data set that's better than what's out there, because we actually look at the photos and if somebody says the house has three bedrooms and we see four, we know Right, and that's. It's really been interesting. So that's kind of added to that product market fit over time and we'll continue to keep iterating on it. 

16:10 - Jesse Burrell (Host)
Yeah, that makes sense. And then another question I always love to ask is did they take funding? And if they did, did they continue to raise along the way? Or is this a bootstrap company? 

16:22 - Chris Rediger (Guest)
Yeah, yeah, HouseCanary has raised quite a bit of money. Uh, it's series c, it's venture backed. Uh, I'm gonna give an approximate number on this yeah, I don't. 

16:30 - Jesse Burrell (Host)
I don't need a prox or yeah, whatever you're willing to share 

16:34 - Chris Rediger (Guest)
around 300 million is at this point. 

16:37
So yeah and uh, now you know we've, uh, we've done that transitional thing right where you could be a little venture baby company, always kind of going back know, getting what you need out of it. But then at some point you have to be a real company. 

16:52
You have to make sure you make enough money to sustain your operations and you know that happened at HouseCanary, so cash flow positive, not relying on any venture back anymore, and and still private, which is pretty unique. So, uh, we're in a pretty good spot. We've got pretty good assets, uh from our uh what we built, and uh ready for the the right time to uh to make any moves around that. So, interesting. 

17:17 - Jesse Burrell (Host)
Yeah, I love um. You are definitely the um guest that I have been with as raised the most amount of money so far on the podcast. So kudos to you guys, because you know I come from founding batch service and we didn't raise a dollar. So it's just very different. On getting perspectives from how people decide to get to where they're trying to go, and I think there's benefits and drawbacks is you know, the benefits of of me in that I've had on, you know, not raising money and being bootstrapped is just always really being intuitive and trusting our instincts and not having someone to really always be profit first and sometimes being able to to move a little bit differently. 

18:06
But the thing that I know and that I've heard from people that have had the right backing with the right partners is we don't have those relationships or some of those huge doors to open for us um that you may be able to get. You know, a multi seven figure contract with, with some of these very big organizations or or big places that have a huge need for a multitude of your data sets. That's been definitely challenging on our end by I don't have someone behind us that has a vested interest saying I have relationships that you don't. I could just grow revenue with some of the relationships I do have and I'm sure you guys have got to take full advantage of of some of those relationships over the last 12 years. 

18:48 - Chris Rediger (Guest)
Yeah, yeah, it's it's an advantage. But it's not. It's an. It's an advantage, with some caveats and some strings, right, you know it's it. Raising money feels good at the time, and then a day later you realize what you did. You just sold off a piece of your company, right? So it's always a bit of a mixed emotion, but having access to that level of capital lets you do things that you can't otherwise do. We can freely make mistakes. 

19:14
We can freely iterate on things and we can work at doing things much faster, so there's benefits to it. It does open up doors, I think. I mean just the current venture markets are real tough right now, so I agree it's hard to do that in the current market. It was easier when HouseCanary did it, but but you know there's a lot of merit to running your own company and starting it and keeping it yours, even if you do have some disadvantages. Yeah, that's a very admirable thing, so it's pretty awesome you guys did it that way. 

19:55 - Jesse Burrell (Host)
Yeah, but you know, we could only grow, you know, with money, as fast as the profits that we make. So we have to be pretty dialed. The mistakes we have made plenty, but they can't be too big, right? Um, we can't swing too hard on. Hey, we want to go drop half a million dollars on this marketing strategy, like we can't do that. Um, if you have a war chest behind you, um, you could take some bigger swings and um, definitely benefits, definitely drawbacks. 

20:25
I don't think I'd change the way we've done it. I would change the way we've done some things, but it's been fun and it's been enjoyable and it's been a journey, because in 2019, I didn't even know what an account executive or an account manager was. I, I had no idea. Um, I was still flipping homes and wholesaling and buying rentals and at that, they call those acquisition reps and disposition managers and, you know, lead managers and, um, I had to learn a lot, you know, pretty quickly. But we were. We were very lucky and I've said this on multiple of the podcasts we were at the right place at the right time, um, with the right product. We damn well took advantage of our opportunity and put fuel on that fire and continued to create more products. 

21:11
But you know, people are like man you're so successful, you've done so many great things and you know super successful people always say there's a lot of luck and timing to do with it. Now you could take advantage of that luck and timing and I feel like we did a good job at that. But you know, I don't know if I could recreate and build something as fast as I did again without some luck and timing Again. If I were to start with. You know, obviously I have a much different wealth than I once have and I could pour more money into a startup if I needed to. But you still have to have some luck and timing to grow quickly. 

21:47
As you said, HouseCanary took five years for them really to get to a place that they felt really good. It takes time, especially if you're trying to disrupt a big space with big people in it that already have a lot of money behind their products, like what you guys have done and built out that model for the valuations. Like there's other big players that are already doing that. So that's a big lift for them to go and say, hey, we're going to do it better and it sounds like you guys have in a lot of ways, which is, you know, a huge kudos to the founders and you taking it to, you know, the next phase of its career. 

22:26 - Chris Rediger (Guest)
Yeah, yeah, it's, yeah, it's, it's. It's definitely fun to go up against the big guys, right? You know, it's always like an underdog story. 

22:33 - Jesse Burrell (Host)
And then for the exec team at at HouseCanary. Have you help when you came on? Did you help re structure, rebuild that out, or did you just come in and assume into a role and then help? How did it look for Chris when he came in? Have you helped build out the executive? Has it cycled over? Kind of give me the rundown on what you've done and then, if you have made any changes, what philosophy did you have in bringing in certain people for certain reasons? I really want to see how you think, how you tick and what's important to you being a leader over at HouseCanary. 

23:09 - Chris Rediger (Guest)
Yeah, yeah, it's a really good question. I mean, when I joined I had a very focused target of product and we have what we call our ELT right Executive Leadership team and that was pretty status quo for the first two years that I was there. It was pretty ingrained and pretty dialed in. Recently, and in our pivot actually recently, the last two years, in our pivot to becoming cashflow positive and stop relying on venture, we completely reorganized our executive team. There's high growth executives and high growth venture backed executives that know exactly how to run a company that has an unlimited well and to hit a certain revenue number to get to the next stage and to hit a certain revenue number to get to the next stage. And then there's other executives that are very, very good at basically creating the regular and appropriate scalable business versus trying to just throw money on a fire and have proportionate revenue growth. So in doing that, we look for a very different people and we also eliminated a lot of roles. 

24:29
So right now our executive team is very small. There's five of us on it and this should kind of show you the heart of HouseCanary. So myself we already talked about the background, but it's really everything else in the company. Our CEO is still involved, both founders, Chris and Jeremy, but they are kind of the founder level executives on the team. Then my counterpart, Ketan, oversees product and then the CTO, mike, is there and we also have two engineers. So I think that's actually a little bit more than five, six I think, but we have two lead engineers. So on our executive team we have four people who are technical. 

25:20 - Jesse Burrell (Host)
I see that. 

25:21 - Chris Rediger (Guest)
Yeah, and one person that does everything else, which is me, and then the CEO and, to be fair, I came from a technical background. 

25:31 - Jesse Burrell (Host)
Yeah, so you started off there on the product side, right, yeah, so it sounds like you guys. You wear a lot of hats and I met you in person at a conference and you very sales oriented, but, um, with the technical, you know thought process, so it sounds like it. If I'm wrong, is it, I know? Is it more product growth led, um, or where do you guys act? Cause it sounds like it's it's you guys. Just, I mean, I already know you have a great product, but is a lot of that. You know we're going to have a great product and then it's going to sell itself and you do some of the market. I guess talk me through kind of what that looks like. 

26:11 - Chris Rediger (Guest)
Yeah, I mean that's a huge question and that was a big pivot we've done recently, again recently, past two years, just keep you out of that. But before that HouseCanary was 100% business to business, blue chip only, and that was our business model and that works really well when you have venture backing and when you have the ability to go after that market. It's pretty labor intensive. You have to hire a lot of very expensive people to do that and we still have that business and I still run that business. We call it our enterprise business. But we've also created a I'll call it direct to prosumer model. It's not to a consumer, but it's a different customer type real estate agents, investors, loan officers, underwriters and they have a whole different pricing tier, a whole different onboarding strategy, whole different support strategy. That's very counter to your blue chip high touch. 

27:10 - Jesse Burrell (Host)
Uh smb, smb, but we call it the same thing. You know, we sell the real estate investors, agents, um loan officers and I I just call it b2c too. It's they're not a consumer, but it's more one or two people. It's S&B, but it's not even S&B. So I feel you, because we share similar customers in different veins, I guess. So I get what you're putting out. 

27:35 - Chris Rediger (Guest)
Yeah, and it was a big pivot to create that whole self-serve model and maintain an enterprise model at the same time but we've done it. And to answer your question directly yeah, that's PLG all day long with that segment that we made. That is self-serve and I love product-led growth. SaaS product-led growth is the sweetest revenue you will ever have, so yeah, and then you've kind of touched on this a little bit. 

28:06 - Jesse Burrell (Host)
You know the business has changed quite a bit over the past three years. I'd love to talk a little bit more. You kind of touched on it, but you know balancing because you guys did make the pivot, so it actually goes perfectly into. My next question is balancing, you know, growth versus profitability, because before maybe the last two, three years, it was just growth is with all the money you guys had being venture backed. It's like grow, grow, grow. Now it sounds like there's a balance to it. And how are you guys, you know, balancing being profitable and also growing now? 

28:39 - Chris Rediger (Guest)
Yeah, so in 2022, you know, there was a pretty clear market indicators that everything was shifting Right and we made the choice at that exact time and I think we were early, which is very, very beneficial for us making this that we decided to pull back on growth at all costs. We were very, very deep in the SFR industry so single family residential corporate, single family ownership and we had a lot of customers in that. They were scaling. I mean, you remember the days institutions were buying like a thousand homes a day. I mean it was crazy how much they were buying. We were very great in that and we kind of saw the writing on the wall. 

29:23
So we devoted a lot of product resources at that time to that self-serve approach and that business trailed down. So we doubled down on other businesses lending, banking and secondary markets and financial markets for data sales on the enterprise side. And then it created the PLG engine that is self-serve side. And then it created the PLG engine that is self-serve. So you know it was a bit of foresight right and we grow slower now than we did. Our growth numbers are still very aggressive, but we have the benefit of sitting on a massive data asset and a lot of pre-built products that now can be adjusted to serve a different segment as opposed to be made from scratch. 

30:09 - Jesse Burrell (Host)
Yeah, we're doing that as well as building out, and we've built out some derivative products where it's like, hey, this could work in a different vertical. We built this for real estate investors. With a couple of tweaks, this could really service a HVAC companies or garage door company or you know any type of home service company, or you know how can we pivot this for realtors to be successful with this product, and that's stuff that you know. You spend all this time and money and energy developing these, these AI and LLM model products. Like you need to find more than one avenue to go into, because it is very expensive to maintain and build and really execute at a high level these really good derivative products. 

30:51
And you guys have a bunch of really good assets. We've worked really hard to build some good assets on our end as well, and it's just us learning other problems different industries have and finding out ways to tweak those algorithms to suit their needs as well, and finding out ways to tweak those algorithms to suit their needs as well. And that's been a fun challenge and experience for us to kind of go through right now, as we've pivoted only servicing the agent and investor space and starting to go after a little bit more of the home service and some of the other adjacent PropTech industries that could use our big data sets. 

31:25 - Chris Rediger (Guest)
Yeah. So, Jesse, how fast Are you seeing changes happen? At like 10 times speed right now, because we're experiencing that. But I wanted to like if your business is seeing changes, like a typical loan officer shop can now use like a massive data set with snowflake and copilot, where they didn't even know that existed six months ago, and they're competitive now with engineering teams you know like large SMBs, so like excuse me, large IMBs, mortgage bank lenders, right? So are you seeing the same thing Like is pace of change happening much faster now? 

32:03 - Jesse Burrell (Host)
Yeah, I was going to dive into that a little bit later, but I'd say let's jump in now because it's organic. But I really see the next. I was going to say where do you see three to five years, technology changing? And one of the big things that I change is kind of the derivative products that both of us made and are starting to talk about. But using those products with simple APIs to integrate into businesses like you're talking about, to where they can ingest that really quickly and they're able to use AI and engineers and it's just getting so much more simple to use things to where it's like we create a complex derivative product, build a simple API around it for them to ingest into their CRM or to their data lake or database that they're using. It's just with technology moving so quickly, database that they're using. It's just with technology moving so quickly, complex data is going to be so much easier for the smaller mom and pop shop to use, rather than these big corporate blue chip companies like you've talked about. 

32:56
And we're really leaning in and that's kind of where we're going. All in is like our machine learning and LOM models and creating these really good derivative products to help these different companies and then making sure that, if we even have to build them these simple APIs to where they could, and creating these really good derivative products to help these different companies, and then making sure that if we even have to build them these simple APIs to where they could ingest it, to where it's just go like, we could solve your problem quickly and I think in the next couple of years, even someone very unsophisticated is going to be using APIs and being able to cleanse their data. And being able to cleanse their data, being able to create insights for themselves, so much simpler than we had to in the past, with a whole bunch of engineers and data scientists to help you process that data, I guess. What are your thoughts? 

33:39 - Chris Rediger (Guest)
Yeah, I mean like right now is the time to reduce any enterprise bloat you have. So like, pace of change for customers is moving wildly fast. Pace of change for internal development is moving wildly fast. You know, an engineer is two to three X more productive now with the tools they have than what they had a year ago. And let's iterate on product faster, let's solve customer problems faster. It's just a real world example. I was talking to a customer of ours. They have access to a data set that is well beyond their scale but we made it accessible to them in a very easy fashion and I mean they doubled their origination business. It's a lender. They doubled their origination business within 45 days of using the product and they didn't have to hire a single engineer. They didn't have to hire a data scientist. This is the CEO who got in and we trained him up and they are off to the races and that just didn't exist six years or six months ago. 

34:43 - Jesse Burrell (Host)
You just couldn't do that. 

34:45
No, no, I know it's. 

34:47
Our job now is to literally curate these derivative data sets and then be able to give that to them through APIs that we could build, because, like there's tools to build these simple APIs and stack them on top and do all this crazy stuff is. 

35:01
I know I'm not the technical um founder as you are, but I understand it to some degree, to where I've been talking with my CRO and Evo, my head of product, and they're like yo, there's going to be some crazy shit that we're able to do where the most unsophisticated person could have insights layered and all this crazy stuff and we could just build it for them and they don't even have to know how to use it that well, just pipe it into their CRM and click a few buttons and there's a little coaching. But even if they don't have any type, as you said, an engineer or someone to really help, I think the world's going to be there in less than a year of having someone that's new getting started in something. If they're good at selling, they're going to be able to start really clipping off some revenue numbers really fast. 

35:47 - Chris Rediger (Guest)
Yeah, I completely agree. I think it's going to be a brave new world. I think it's going to be pretty fun. 

35:53 - Jesse Burrell (Host)
I'm excited. I am excited for people like businesses that we have with, with really cool data and really good teams, to now. We get to have the fun. We get to go build some cool shit and go solve some problems and actually have people that don't need large teams to go help them cool shit. Um, and go solve some problems and actually have people that don't need large teams to go help them scale their businesses and have their CRMs cleaner and um have their marketing machine um way more dialed in with way more insights and be way more sophisticated without actually having to be sophisticated. Um that that I mean you could tell the excitement that I have, like I know that's the future. 

36:28
So um it's pretty cool. So, um, I guess I like to talk about we're also obviously data companies. Um, you know, we've we've talked about that for a while now. I guess, um, I love to ask this question what data insights do you love to use inside of? Like our businesses? Um, like, what data insights do you use? Um for customer growth? Um, let me give you an example of I'm not framing this question perfectly is like, um, for our batch leads product? 

37:00
You know, one of the data insights that we love to use is, um, you know, product adoption. So we use a bunch of different reporting's with tableau and data bricks and some different tools that we layer to see where people are using our features the most. If we go to market with a new feature, is it adopting? What do we consider a win for adoption? Those are some of the data use cases that we like to do is like getting customer data, but like the insights of where people are actually being successful, what they're using, and then you know collecting the feedback. 

37:34
Um, you know, through internal surveys and stuff like that. But what, I guess, what internal data do you like to use to help your business grow? As, like a Sierra, like what things are you kind of pulling and looking at to be like, hey, hey, here's some levers that we can pull to maybe have the customer experience be better. Or hey, here's, maybe some of your customers are using something more that you didn't think of and that's something you could feed back to the sales team for them to go drive more revenue for you. 

38:02 - Chris Rediger (Guest)
Yeah, yeah, it's a good question. I'll answer it kind of in twofold, because we have two types of business for the product led growth business, and this is really what our product team does. I mean we've overlaid all clickstream data on that so we know exactly what everyone's using and I mean that is imperative, right, just to know the difference of conversion on changing a button size or moving one product to the front or the next, and that, like it's how dialed in you have to be to really zero on your plug products and uh, and it works. So I would say there's no data that's too minuscule to want to track when a user is in your app and using your platform and. 

38:46
And if you're making money on a per drink basis and a subscription basis, it's pretty fun to play with and I mean you can really get into interesting things. One thing that's you know, just as a tidbit that we rolled out really recently was adding in upsells inside support requests for different type of functions. So really simple support request comes in. You just ask them what problem they're trying to solve right, and if you understand what problem they're trying to solve, it's a lot easier to just anyone can solve the support ticket. But if you ask them what problem they're trying to solve, get some sort of sales engineering engaged in that on a support ticket, usually you get them to use other endpoints of the products or their services and it makes it easier for them to solve the problem. So it's really taking what is typically a burden to the company just dealing with your typical support request but doing a little bit of judo and getting an opportunity out of it. So that's on the PLG side. On the enterprise side, it's really interesting, right. So we have a whole picture of this whole thing. 

39:55
We call residential real estate the value of the home. We know how much the mortgages are on it. We know who owns the mortgages that are on it. We know when it trades. There's a whole lot of data that goes into all of that. That macro data is so powerful when you're trying to target enterprise customers To see who's selling their loans and buying their loans, to see who's dispositioning SFR assets and where they're buying, to see which markets are going up and going down. I think on enterprise it's macro level right and it's a huge aggregated data set because all of their internal data usage is real locked up. You can't get to it, you can't see it, you don't really know, you can't see through the veil. On the prosumer and PLG side it's micro level data and it's really a tale of two cities. So I mean, those are the two things that I look at most, you know, just depending on customer segment. 

40:54 - Jesse Burrell (Host)
So Gotcha, yeah, I may have to incorporate some of that judo that you're doing on the support, because you're really it's giving you an opportunity to do further discovery that your sales reps may have missed. 

41:09
Or if you're on product led, like, let's say, we just have people come sign up for batch leads right, it's very product led as well. We have over a thousand customers sign up a month and our sales reps are not talking to many of them. It could definitely be a great opportunity to turn a problem into. Hey, I'm hearing you and we may have solutions that you may not know that we have, and we want to help solve your problems to make sure that your business gets to the next level. I think that is a brilliant customer support idea and even if you don't upsell them, you can point them in the right direction of what maybe features that they're missing that you have that is going to solve their problem to where they stay instead of churn, because you know it's a lot easier, it's a lot less expensive to keep a customer than to acquire the next one. Yeah, and as a product guy. 

42:00 - Chris Rediger (Guest)
I mean, even if you don't upsell them, you still solve their problem and you get valuable insights to what your product could do better. So you know, I mean it's a win-win and I mean it is for our PLG. Like we prefer to not have sales revenue, we have a revenue target for our salespeople and anything below that we typically don't want our salespeople to communicate with those customers, right? So it's very much a straight line on what's considered enterprise and what's considered product-led, yeah. 

42:31 - Jesse Burrell (Host)
And for the B2C side that we're both talking about right now, I hate saying the word upsell. It's let them know other operators, like honestly, it sounds scummy and that's not what me or you are trying to do. It's letting them know other offerings that we have and if it fits their needs to help them grow their business. Like I want to make sure that they know that we have some incredible stuff that people don't even know about because they don't do the onboard. Like we pay 50 literally 50 for someone to go get onboarded so we could actually highlight our product to its full potential. Like that's how much it is worth for us to say, hey, you paid us and it's as cheap as $120 a month to get started with this. Hey, we'll basically pay for half of it if you just go to this onboarding. Because we know the success in the clip that when people actually see the features and what we've built out to its entirety and knowing how to use it properly, that they're going to stick around for a lot longer to someone than someone that doesn't go to that onboarding. And kudos to my partner, Anny. She's like why are people that onboard staying 80 longer? Like we need more people there, um, and that shows kind of how she thinks I'm like huh, so even like the sales reps will do spiffs to be like, hey, if you talk to someone, they haven't been onboarded, like, send them there. Um, you could still solve their problem, but still send them there. 

43:53
We're happy to give them credit. There's gonna be, because we have live people all day doing onboardings. Like it is, it is a live onboarding, it's a group onboarding. We have them going every hour. Um, we know the power of the product we built. But if you it's unfortunately for these B2C customers a lot of the time you can't just get them to the water. You actually have to make sure they drink the water too. Um, and, and that's just the way it is, people are busy. Um, a lot of these real estate investors are part-time investors. They have limited time. We want to make sure that they're seeing the value in what we have and we're happy to give them some extra incentives to get there, and that's how much we believe in what we've built. 

44:40 - Chris Rediger (Guest)
Yeah, yeah, I agree, upsell is a dirty word, but I mean I always look at it in the sense of like with data, especially with data, you never sell something somebody doesn't need. You know. It's like if you don't need it, just don't don't get it. It's not like you're tacking on you know a tire, like warranty with the car dealership, right. I mean it's like, hey, this is going to be better, let's do this. So yeah, upsells dirty, I completely agree with you. 

44:58 - Jesse Burrell (Host)
But uh, but finding that right niche and that, uh, that right use case is pretty fun well, it's just if we have some of our customers that maybe I know some of my customers will be listening to some of these podcasts and I don't want them to think that's how I think, because it's not like I'm thinking of how can I add more value to you? We have different products. Products cost money. I'm not trying to upsell you. I'm trying to let you know of other opportunities, of products that we have that may help your business grow faster or we may have a better solution than something else that you're already paying for and we're we try to be like apple. 

45:31
You know we have a bunch of things integrated where people could seamlessly work, um, with our suite of products and we just people don't know. We want to make sure you know that they do know, yeah, um, next question is this could be this is a personal question for you, so let's say, not necessarily HouseCanary, it could be a house canary related answer. But you know where's a moment in anywhere in your career something that completely felt like a failure but ultimately pushed you in the business in a better direction. It doesn't necessarily have to be the company you work for today. 

46:15 - Chris Rediger (Guest)
Yeah, I mean it's a solid question. I think like kind of speaking about the private equity move before. I always look at failures as just education. So I would say one thing it is HouseCanary related, but I think it's company agnostic right, like this could happen to anyone's company. 

46:32
But early on at HouseCanary we were everything to every one of our customers right and that flexibility just caused us to fail over and over and over again. We would spend too much time, energy, effort on creating certain circumstances and certain environments for every one of our customers that we could never standardize anything and everything was like this magic little snowflake and inevitably we churned a lot of customers because we couldn't keep up with it. We couldn't keep that level of service, we couldn't keep that level of customization on everything. So we lost a lot of business and now we have a very standardized approach, very high touch, very high level of service, but the expectations are set on what's delivered and what's not delivered. 

47:30
So I think that's a growing pain failure in a company of wanting to do everything you possibly can to get the customer into a position that you think is going to benefit them, but inevitably it hurts them because you can't, as a business keep up with that type of relationship, and a lot of times everyone just benefits more from transparency. You say we don't do custom development work anymore. Great, like now they can go talk to somebody else to do that, and it's a lot easier. If you say we can't and you can't fulfill those obligations, you're in a world of hurt. So I'd say that's one of them. It's like stick to what you know, execute on what you know, and it's okay to not be everything to everybody. 

48:17 - Jesse Burrell (Host)
So that is really serendipitous that you brought this point up, because I believe it was yesterday or the day before. I was literally talking to my other founding partner, evo who's head of product, um, about you in HouseCanary and how he's going to interview you, and we were talking about the growing pains of being everything to everyone on customizing contracts. We can service these, these people, but it's causing it's not really causing a customer problem, it's causing a reporting problem and it's causing an account management problem of them understanding exactly consumption, um, the health of the account and so on and so forth. And you know, I was like house canary has a very simple offering for their B2B and you fit into it or you don't. We will make anything fit for anyone with data sets and if they don't want to buy this way, we figure out a way for them to buy. And it hurts our reporting, it hurts our forecasting and we may have to. You know, I was like we have to tell these sales reps to like here's, here's your buckets Um, they may have, we may lose some accounts, but it's killing our internal reporting, it's killing some of the things that we need to do to scale properly. 

49:40
And I brought you up in HouseCanary up as a very specific example of they do a shit ton of revenue and they do it this way and we have to get tougher on that sales team to be like you cannot bend over backwards, like if they have to pay a little bit more and they're not quite consuming that much, like here's the bucket you fall into for this price if you want this type of discount, um, we can't keep creating all these custom things all the time, because sales is just like well, I'm getting money in the door and our VP of sales is like I'm growing like crazy and product's like dude. 

50:12
This is a fucking headache, because now they want these reports and don't have the right insights. They created their own problems is what is actually happening right now. So it is very funny that you brought that up, because I brought you guys up as a great example of what to do and I may want to pick your brain a little bit of, maybe, how to go to the sales side, because it creates friction between sales and product and frustrations as well. It's not hurting any of our customer or any of our churn, to be honest with you whatsoever, but it's just making it harder for, specifically, our account managers to do their job properly, and I guess the AEs are really fucking the account managers by continuing to do this. To be honest with you, Well, so it's. 

50:58 - Chris Rediger (Guest)
Yeah, this is. This is a good topic and hopefully there's a lot of benefit to everyone out there, because when you grow a company, you got to make concessions sometimes, and sometimes those concessions you make you know are going to bite you. In a company, you got to make concessions sometimes and sometimes those concessions you make you know are going to bite you in the ass, right, and you just have to address it. One of the reasons why I was brought in to take on revenue was to fix the exact problem that I just discussed. 

51:19 - Jesse Burrell (Host)
He may be a consultant soon, my friend. 

51:22 - Chris Rediger (Guest)
Yeah, I mean, it's brutal and what you inevitably find out is you think you might lose some contracts, you think the customer might not be as happy. Those are false fears, like the amount of time that you save, even if you lose a bad contract. If you save the time and you actually apply that time efficiently from an account manager or even from an account executive's perspective, they can go bring in more business, right, it's just the amount of time and energy spent on those special deals were brutal and yeah, we've cleaned them. There's still a couple. There's always going to be a couple, but a couple versus 5,000 is a lot nicer. 

52:07 - Jesse Burrell (Host)
Yeah, and we're lucky that we're still small enough on our B2B side that we worked really hard. We spent the last year creating subscriptions, buckets, add-ons for that to where we could have a true subscription for them. We could see their consumption, and we've just let these sales reps I'll make sure they don't listen to this episode. Actually, I hope they do, because these changes are going to happen and I appreciate that that they're doing their best to get revenue in the door for the company. But sometimes, um, it is my job to look at the whole picture. They're looking at, they're part of the picture and and they want, they really care and they really want to grow the company. But it's really hard to tell sales rep like you're gonna have to let this one go if they're not willing to confess and at sometimes you just have to be tough with the customer and be like I can't bend over backwards like the account manager, like they have to just really explain it to them and be like, hey, this is why we have to do it this way and I'm like really sorry that you want it this way, but do we spend a year redoing everything? And the sales reps were a part of this and like well, this specific case doesn't fit into this bucket, so we got to go custom again. It's like no, you don't. Like no, you don't. 

53:19
And to your point, you know this is what we're selling, this is how we're selling it. 

53:24
Like you know. 

53:25
It sounds like you made your sales team have a backbone to say this is how we do things, this is how we're going to do things and long term, for the company's health and growth, we may lose a couple, but, to your point, they're going to become difficult contracts that are tough for the account manager to look into and get the proper insights. 

53:42
How much time is that wasting of new or more deals or deals that the account manager could be upselling or that the account, the AE, is going and finding a better fit instead of wasting hours and hours creating these custom contracts? They still sometimes don't think as big as they need to in the value of their time, and you know we have an abundance of leads and a really big pipeline to be completely honest with you. So you know I may have you come in because they're sick of hearing it from me and be like hey, Chris went through this too, like you don't have to be scared, so maybe you could give some third party advice down the road as we try and make some of these changes to batch data. 

54:20 - Chris Rediger (Guest)
Yeah, I'd love to. I'd love to be helpful, I think, too. One other thing to address, and this is applicable to everybody. Right, I talked a little bit about enterprise growth or enterprise bloat on engineering and how that's really changed recently with all the new tools. What you're outlining and bad process and procedure through the contracting and account management process is so bloating to other departments, right Like after the. A by-product of this was that we were able to save substantial dollars through headcount in accounting just by organizing our contracts correctly. 

54:58
We had no idea how much we were spending on accountants until we got this right, you know, and I mean, it's just something simple where you're like, oh cool, let's save quite a bit of of money, and we weren't even thinking about that so, yeah, holistically, yeah, the downstream effect. 

55:14 - Jesse Burrell (Host)
These sales reps aren't standing because, like you can't, you can't, there's no efficiency on the product side to fix a problem like that. Like there's. No, there's no tool that could fix a contract. That's custom, that because if it's not in stripe properly and then you can't track the consumption and like it fucks everything up like it does um, excuse my language, I've said that a few times but you could tell I'm very passionate about trying to get this cross-border and luckily, um with you too. 

55:42
I would love to talk to you outside of this, but you have a very good relationship with um, a few of our sales reps and our VP sales to be like you may be able to reiterate this a little bit more and be like until cause, like they're bitching a product, but until sales and the leader in sales fixes how they're selling, there's no way for product to help fix the insight and visibility problem If they're not tied to Stripe or tied to whatever merchant that you're using, because it's custom. Custom is custom. You can't create custom insights for custom contracts and all of them being different Product cannot solve that problem ever. 

56:19 - Chris Rediger (Guest)
Yeah, so it's funny that you bring it up. When we started addressing this problem, I decided and we all agreed that one of the SVP of engineering, who used to report up through me and product on the products that I was working on, would actually be the engineer and product leader of our whole go-to-marketing and billing process. Uh, so I actually framed it as sales is the customer, this is what we need to achieve, this is the team that's going to do it for us. So we and that's a huge gamble right, you're taking somebody off of building product that you're selling to build efficiencies internally, and uh, but we, we used it in that frame framework because that's a framework we know and we really excel at that. 

57:09
And what happened with that is it changed the paradigm. Instead of product fighting sales, it was like oh, product is now working for sales, they're going to make this right and this is the inevitable outcome that we're going to achieve. Right, the inevitable outcome was determined by the powers. That be Right, and all the teams are working on it in sync, as opposed to being opposite forces, and it worked really well. So, yeah, it's a common problem and it's a scale problem, right? Like once you get to a certain size, you got to redo it. Then you get to another size and you got to redo it again, and you just keep on laddering it up. So it's a good problem to have. 

57:46 - Jesse Burrell (Host)
For sure. And then the final question and I'll circle back to this is over the next two to three years in our PropTech space that we live in I know we touched on this Is there anything else that you think I know we talked about the big data and the APIs and just the efficiencies around that for customers to be. You know way better with the data sets that we're talking about. Is there any other disruptions that you think could be, you know, really big in our space, or something that you guys are looking to really focus on to grow? HouseCanary. 

58:25 - Chris Rediger (Guest)
So I think one disruption that's going to come in that we haven't quite figured out yet is and I'm hoping it does right, but there's an off chance it won't but some sort of tokenization with title and property records. I think that'd be super cool. It's a little bit not in vogue right now to talk about because there's so many other AI and all of the things coming in, but I think uncorrupted title records and kind of all the data that will come off of that would be very disruptive throughout the. The industry. Uh, we're not focusing on that at all. That's just a prop tech. You know, kind of uh using that. I have uh the I interviewed I sorry to interrupt. 

59:07 - Jesse Burrell (Host)
I interviewed have you heard of TITL T-I-T-L dot co. They're actually putting TITL onto blockchain right now and doing that. I know they started in Florida and they're venturing out, but I actually interviewed the CEO. It was, I think, earlier this week, maybe late last week, maybe late last week. Um, yeah, that's uh, that is uh. If they execute that properly, that is a unicorn company, cause that is a huge problem to solve. Um, they have a small team that I think they're just raising, like they did their product market fit in Florida. It seems like it's going pretty well. But if, uh, if you have any interest to pick his brain, I'm happy to to pass along his information. But there, but that was really cool and unique and that is a big, big undertaking, a big goal, and if they could execute it properly, every single person in the United States that has big data, especially those big title companies, are going to absolutely eat this up. 

01:00:05 - Chris Rediger (Guest)
Yeah, I mean title's that industry. It's like nobody really cares. Some people make money on it through jvs, but like everybody has to buy it. 

01:00:13 - Jesse Burrell (Host)
But it's so antiquated and it's just ripe for disruption so it it is, and if they could truly figure out um to do what they said that they're looking to do, um, it'd be interesting. I'm definitely gonna follow follow their journey and I'm excited to to see what they're doing. It's funny that you mentioned it because I just interviewed someone that's trying to do that. God knows, I don't want to do it. If you want to try, go ahead. That is a problem. That is a very archaic industry. 

01:00:44
I'm excited to hear someone trying to because ultimately it is going to make um title frog go away to a huge degree um, which is great, and it's also going to drive the cost down um to get um transactions done uh, long term. So uh, it could be. It would be a huge benefit to the title companies, to the it will get, get passed down to the customers and there'll be like they're able to already alert. You know, like these big REITs and stuff that have properties in Florida is if, if something touched title, like they're monitoring this stuff every day and really cool stuff. I'm really interested to see see what they're doing and I think they are doing a raise and I'm personally have a call Monday to see see a little bit more, cause I might throw a few bucks at it, cause if, um, if they actually do it, um, talk about 20, 30, 40 X in my, um, my investment, but it could also be money burnt up in in six months and I'll never see that again. 

01:01:44 - Chris Rediger (Guest)
But yeah, angel, I'll never see that again. But yeah, angel founding stuff or angel investing and stuff. So, uh, yeah, but the other one too, and I got to address this because I mean it's the elephant in the room. It might not directly affect you or you might not think it's going to directly affect you, but all of the fighting in fighting on real estate brokerages right now, with clear cooperation, MLS and their involvement in that, and the Department of Justice looking into every single thing that is residential real estate right now, is, I mean, you said two to three years probably gonna be faster than that but I think it's going to make some pretty monumental changes happen in the real estate market fairly quickly. 

01:02:23 - Jesse Burrell (Host)
So, yeah, um, I think those are probably two of the biggest disruptions and you know, there's going to be people taking, there's going to be huge market shifts for companies to have. Um, there's going to be some unicorns built out of the two things I think that you're talking about right now. 

01:02:43 - Chris Rediger (Guest)
Yep, yeah. So it's uh that old, old curse, right. May you live in interesting times. I think times are very interesting, right now. 

01:02:52 - Jesse Burrell (Host)
So, before we wrap up, how would someone get a hold of you personally, Chris? And then, if they're interested in learning more about HouseCanary, where would they go for that? 

01:03:04 - Chris Rediger (Guest)
Yeah, HouseCanary is really easy Housecanary.com. Play around on the site, submit a form if you want to chat with somebody or just sign up, and then, uh, if you want to hit me, probably best way to do it is on LinkedIn. Uh, it's chris, last name is Rediger r-e-d-i-g-e-r, and uh, shoot me a message. 

01:03:21 - Jesse Burrell (Host)
So and then, very last thing is I always like my guests to end with just any type of advice, for you know a SaaS founder. It could be the beginning, middle, towards the end of their journey. You've had a very interesting one. I've learned today. You know, what advice would you give to somebody? 

01:03:42 - Chris Rediger (Guest)
Yeah, I think kind of two things. There's always more left in your tank, right? So we started this talking about founder fatigue. I think it's a good thing to talk about at the end, no matter what, if you think you're at zero, you're not. 

01:03:57
You still have 20%. 

01:03:59
So just rest on that fact. And, kind of on the same vein, there's always another lever to pull or switch to turn right. So being a founder is tough, running a business is tough and you got a good community around you. Leverage that and know that there's always other options. So just keep keep working. 

01:04:20 - Jesse Burrell (Host)
Well, I appreciate you for joining me. I know you're a busy man and to the audience listening. Thank you for joining another episode of the Real SaaS Podcast. Until next time, let's get it. Thanks, Jesse. 

01:04:37 - Hope (Announcement)
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