E58: Why Leaders Burn Out (It’s NOT What You Think) with Naomi Asher

Leadership coach and burnout researcher Naomi Asher breaks down why burnout isn’t caused by overwork—but by lack of growth, misalignment, and misunderstood communication. We explore the truth about work-life balance, nonprofit leadership stress, and how tools like the Enneagram can transform teams, reduce conflict, and create meaningful, sustainable work.

Connect with Naomi:

https://www.naomithemaven.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:11

What if the degree you earned isn't something you apply, but something you become? Today our guest challenges a belief so many of us carry that our work has to directly match what we studied in college. Naomi has a music degree, and while she may not be using it in the traditional sense, she's absolutely using the skills it gave her every single day. Because the truth is, those skills are transferable. In this conversation, we get into burnout, hustle culture, and why the constant pressure to do more might finally be starting to fade. Naomi didn't just experience burnout, she studied it, and what she found goes deeper than workload or compensation. Let's roll right in. All right, welcome to the Work Sucks But I Like It podcast. Today we have Naomi Asher. She is a leadership speaker, coach, and nonprofit strategist who helps leaders stop burning out and start understanding each other. She is the founder of the Maven Consulting and also a recent doctoral graduate studying executive burnout risk factors. Naomi, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_00 1:11

Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_01 1:13

No, awesome. So first question, Naomi, I'd like to ask our guests is how do you define work today? How do you define it?

SPEAKER_00 1:21

Wow. Um, that's a great question. Um honestly, I think that there's a there's a move back towards working to live, not living to work. And so work, I think, um while I do and I talk about this a lot, I think that work needs to be connected to passion and it needs to be connected to purpose. Um, I also think that work is a paycheck and we need to get back to working to live and not live to work.

SPEAKER_01 1:51

I love that. It's almost like the three Ps you said there. So we got paycheck, passion, and purpose. Walk us through how you sort of integrate this definition of work into your day now.

SPEAKER_00 2:03

So it's interesting working for myself and starting my own business because it used to be very structured. Work was much more, and even though I've always um had a little bit of overwork habit, um I think now it's so much more enmeshed into my life where um, like I took a nap today and I don't feel bad about it because I'm probably gonna be working tomorrow. So my whole life now is just um kind of intermingled, I think, with work. However, I'm able to prioritize family and friends and things in a way that I haven't been able to before. And so I think it's all about finding the right balance. And that balance looks very different from person to person. I love working on Sunday nights. I love feeling like on Monday I'm organized, but that's me. That's not everybody. And so I think I think it's all about finding that right balance.

SPEAKER_01 3:01

So just so we can get clear and the audience clear here as well. So one of the things now we have been noticing on the show, guests coming on, there's sort of two categories with work, right? We have people that work in nine to five and the people that are entrepreneurs. Where do you consider yourself to be? Even like those terms that I'm using.

SPEAKER_00 3:20

Yeah. Yeah, an entrepreneur for sure.

SPEAKER_01 3:23

Gotcha. So let's take a step back. So were you an entrepreneur your whole life or did you work a nine to five first?

SPEAKER_00 3:31

So I've got two decades of experience in nonprofit leadership. And so I would say it was not nine to five, but um, but yeah, it was it was much more of a a clock in, clock out. Um, however, when you work in nonprofit, um, especially because so many people that you work with are volunteering their time, it becomes very all-consuming where you want to make sure that you're available as the CEO to your board members or volunteers when when they're not working. And so those nine to five boundaries get really messy. Um, and then obviously with fundraising and events and things of that nature, um, that flows over into your weekends. And so it can become very um unmanageable. And that's part of why my dissertation focuses on um nonprofit burnout. Because I do not believe that it is.

SPEAKER_01 4:28

So I definitely want to explore your dissertation because I think that's really cool. But one thing, just because I'm curious, what are your thoughts around work-life balance? Is that sort of the equation we should be thinking about?

SPEAKER_00 4:39

Yeah, I I think that balance is an interesting word. I don't know that we ever um reach that on a day-to-day, but I do think when we look at our lives on a grander scheme, um, that there needs to be balance in terms of, you know, years that you really spend investing in your family and your friends and your personal life, and then years that you're investing in your career and in education and things of that nature. So um on the day-to-day, I don't know that there's any kind of like balance. Um, I think some people maybe feel like they've achieved that, but I don't, I don't know that we consider work-life balance in the best, in the best light or in the best way. I don't know that it's attainable for most people in a majority of their life.

SPEAKER_01 5:34

So now, yes, now I really want to go into dissertation here. So walk us through first why you wanted to do your PhD. Because right now I'm working on mine, and I'm just would love to hear why you wanted to start this like long process, right? Of doing this work. What got you into it?

SPEAKER_00 5:52

Oh man, I don't even remember anymore. It was a terrible idea. Um, I'm just kidding. Uh I really wanted to, I think I, and this is a stupid reason, um, but I'm gonna start here. I wanted to kind of prove to myself that I could do it. Um, I'm the not a first generation in my family for higher education, but first female um to um pursue higher education. And so for me, when I got my master's degree, I was the only one of our kids, or only one of my parents' kids that had um an advanced degree. And then I was like, well, why stop here? Um, and so it just kind of continued to plague me that like there's something else I can do that I could um kind of prove to myself and others, like that our family, like I feel like it's carrying family legacy a little bit. I think it's um I'm a foster parent, and so I wanted to prove to my kids, um, especially my teenage girls, that they can do whatever they set their mind to. And so um, I've never considered myself that intellectual or that intelligent, but I wanted to prove that if you work hard, you can do it.

SPEAKER_01 7:10

So I guess what was your undergrad and did you do your master's? Like I'm just curious how you got into this sort of like area.

SPEAKER_00 7:17

Yeah. Um, my undergrad is in music and theology.

SPEAKER_01 7:21

I love that even more. That's amazing, actually.

SPEAKER_00 7:24

Um, yeah, I I was going to do music ministry actually when I was in my undergrad. Um, and then that never that never happened. I just um by the time I graduated, I was not interested in working in a church. And um I took a bunch of of short-term jobs that kind of gave me all kinds of skills and all of those skills when I was, um, I had just got married and um talking to one of my clients. I was a personal trainer for a while, and I was talking to one of my clients, and she ran a temp agency, and she said, Oh, I've got this organization. I think you'd be great. And she said, Nobody gets along with the director. And she's she's gone through all of these office managers, and I think you should go down there. And I was like, All right, I mean, I'll give it a go. So I went down. We had a great conversation. She ended up being um one of my biggest advocates and a and a mentor to me for many years, taught me everything that I know. Um, and she, I just didn't know that nonprofit was even a thing. Like I honestly had no idea that that there were nonprofit organizations out there, that there were organizations doing such great work. And so I said, Yeah, I would love to work here. Ended up being there under her for two years, and then I took over as as the CEO when she retired a few years later. And so that was it was crazy and it was very fast and wild way to get into nonprofit management. But I was there for a total of seven years and then went to um a larger nonprofit for um the next 10 years. And and because I had a music degree, right, I just kept feeling like this is crazy. I've got no business doing this. And so um I started my master's degree shortly after I took over as the CEO uh for that smaller organization. Um and that really just put me, so I got my MBA. Um, I didn't want to do a nonprofit management program. I really wanted to get my MBA, so I did my MBA specialized in marketing and just loved it. I was really interested in it. And then um when I started looking at PhD programs and doctoral programs, I found this one through Carolina University and it's um organizational management and community leadership. And that was just perfectly in line with what I wanted to do and what I had been doing. And so it just it felt like it was really calling to me and that it was the right, the right next move.

SPEAKER_01 9:52

It's so funny, Naomi, that you know, people when they get their college degrees, society today makes it seem like, oh, if you can't readily apply music theory to whatever job, it's like a useless thing. Why do we think that? Because I feel like I love music, right? So I'm a drummer in a band. I look at people of having their song and dance, right? I actually think like music is like a good thing to study, right? Why do you think society does that to us?

SPEAKER_00 10:18

No, it drives me nuts, actually, because I've been thinking about that so far, like so many times along my career journey, I've thought, I have all this work experience and all of this educational experience. It's unrelated, but I think that it has made me much more well-rounded. And all of those skills are transferable. And I will say I remember when I was getting my undergrad, people said it doesn't matter what you do as long as you have a degree. And I think there is some truth to that. Um, obviously, you know, I'm not going to go be a nuclear engineer or something with a music degree, but um, but I think I think we've forgotten just that we learn so many skills that are transferable and that when we are more well-rounded, we are better employees really in any workspace. And so I think, I think there's definitely benefit to it. And we need to, you and I are gonna take on the burden of making sure people understand that.

SPEAKER_01 11:18

I love that, right? Changing the the language around work, absolutely. So one of the things we like to say in the show, Naomi, is that success is not a matter of good luck, it's good skills. What skill would you say from your, let's start with your undergrad degree in music that you've applied like in your life?

SPEAKER_00 11:35

I think definitely not backing down from a challenge. It was music theory is hard. Um I think there were 20 people that started, and I was the only person that graduated on time. Holy smokes. Wow. Yeah, that's amazing. And and it was so, and it was like most of them dropped out, and then we had one other that that graduated, I think, one semester or maybe a year after me, but it was like it's so hard, and it's just not what you expect. Like if you love music, even if you play music lookups, a voice major and um played piano and guitar and violin, music theory is just still really hard. It's so much harder, I think, than anybody anticipates it being. And so that, and then sight singing and um I like there are just so many challenges to it that um just caught me completely off guard, but I was not gonna back down and just doubled down on on working hard. And that's the thing is I would not say that I am anywhere close to the talent level that usually goes into a music degree. But I worked really hard. Um, and I think that's been a consistent thing throughout my life is that I may not be, you know, the most naturally gifted at things, but I I will work hard until I can get it and do it. And that's when I want to inspire in other, um, especially other like teenagers and and girls entering the workforce.

SPEAKER_01 13:20

So organizational leadership, you know. So why did you want to study what you studied in terms of burnout? Walk us through that scenario of you said, wait a minute, we need to research this and figure out a solution.

SPEAKER_00 13:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:35

What was that?

SPEAKER_00 13:35

I was I was seeing so many leaders and nonprofits burning out. Um, and I started my degree program in 2020. And so definitely through that, there were a lot of additional challenges. And it's just like when you look at any of these statistics from that time, the divorce rates were really high. Well, I don't think that COVID caused divorce, but I think that it did force people to deal with things that they maybe hadn't or to face things that maybe they hadn't. And so the same was true with the nonprofit community. So many nonprofits were spread so thin, they were really challenged to step up to take a stand on how they um how the organization um positions itself in the community on on multiple issues and funding got really difficult. Um I remember it was some of the hardest times of my life. Like I was delivering um cleaning supplies to people. I was working at vaccination clinics, I was um working with community members hand sewing masks and getting those delivered. Like it was just absolutely wild and how quickly we had to pivot to be relevant and um and serving the needs of the community. Well, then what we saw was a couple years after, so maybe, you know, 23, 24, it was almost like PTSD of like we went through this experience and then we just didn't talk about it. And it was kind of like, yeah, everything's back to normal. And I remember thinking, life will never be the same again. We all said that. We're never, it will never be the same again. We're not gonna have these huge concerts and these festivals. Like we're never going back to that because it's just too risky in the world now. And it was like, boom, light switch, everything's reopened, everything's fine, everything's 100% back to normal. And it was like, did that happen? Did we have that experience? Did we live through that? And it's almost like this blank spot in so many people's memories. And that contributed so heavily, I think, to burnout because we went from a time of, for a lot of people, a time of slowdown because we couldn't overload our schedules because we there just weren't events and things to be going to and things to be shoving into our lives. And then as quickly as everything shut down, it ramped back up. And that pile on of activity, I think was so overwhelming, and we didn't give ourselves space for that whiplash that it started causing significant burnout, which was already a problem in nonprofit leadership. So I think this is the thing, is when you look at nonprofit leaders, they're some of the highest for um substance misuse, for embezzlement and risky behaviors, for suicide, for because they're carrying the compassion fatigue of the nursing and medical field while also carrying the pressure of keeping people employed for like the business community. And so it's cra I could talk about this for hours.

SPEAKER_01 17:07

But I love your unique perspective on this because it's interesting how you use kind of COVID slowing down and then we're thrown back in 100%. And that's like kind of like would you say it's like we forgot what to do, or we just feel like we're making up for the time that we weren't doing something, especially in this hustle culture. Can you explain more of that? Because I really like this unique angle on this.

SPEAKER_00 17:30

Yeah, absolutely. And I love that you said hustle culture, because I talk about that a lot. Um it's yeah, I think I remember right before COVID, I was just like, man, I've got stuff every single night. And then there was this huge shutdown of it. So that then when it started ramping back up, and I remember being in nonprofit and being in fundraising and development, thinking, well, we've got to do this event. Where can we fit it in? Because there's all these other things going on. And then attendance started going down. And now what we see, interestingly, is um RSVPs like for the wedding industry, for events, for concert sales, for all of these things. Tickets are not selling in advance. People don't want to commit like that anymore. And I think that that is part of it because we forgot how to balance. I think then we have a whole generation, um, or at least a, you know, a chunk of a generation that never learned how to balance it. Because they could do school in their room and get a whole day done in a four hours, and there were no after school activities to participate in. And now they don't know how to balance. Whereas I look back on my years in high school and I was in like every after school extracurricular, plus I worked 20 hours a week selling, you know, at a retail store. And so you think about that inability then to carry all of these things in that schedule. I think we will see a shift, a significant shift away from this, the hustle culture and celebrating and overly um appreciating people who do too much. I think that's gonna shift drastically in the next 10 years or so.

SPEAKER_01 19:30

So, Naomi, walk us through the hypothesis for your dissertation now. Tell us like what group of participants you were studying and what you were trying to find in your study.

SPEAKER_00 19:41

Yeah, so I'm um looking at nonprofit um leaders, so CEOs um of any size nonprofit organization. Um, I've been able to drill down within the data that I've got from my from my surveys to look at different sizes. Um, and there's a lot that I could get into with that, but I'll I'll hold back on that for now.

SPEAKER_01 20:04

Um maybe another time on another episode for sure. Yeah, I love it. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 20:08

So I've got, I'm looking at the um job demands resources model, that survey, and then MASLOC's burnout inventory and how they work together and how they play together. And one of the things that I was going into this in my mind knowing is I do not believe that it is just workload and compensation that is burning out nonprofit professionals. Because I do not think most nonprofit professionals are motivated by money after a base amount, right? Like you've got to you shouldn't be impoverished. Um, but after a certain level, I do not think that they're financially motivated and I do not think that they get burned out from overwork because I was working a huge amount of hours, and so were all my counterparts. This is not unique to me, that were fully in the mission and and loved it and were so happy working 50, 60 hours a week. So I do not believe that it's overwork or compensation. And sure enough, it the things that are hitting the hardest are upward growth mobility, um, opportunities for learning and development, those types of things, which especially for female nonprofit leaders, those are capped pretty quick. And that's where we see the most burnout effect, um, is when we don't have opportunities to learning and development, when we don't have upward mobility or the perception of it. And so that's really what we're seeing cause a lot of that burnout. And then it's mission alignment. And kind of the the tail end of my story is when I started this this program and this research, I didn't feel burned out at all. I took a job change to go to a large nonprofit. Um, it was a, it was just not a good alignment. I thought that it was. We all thought it was a good fit, was not a good fit. Within six months, I've never been so burned out. I've never felt worse. Um, I didn't want to get up in the mornings. I was just, I couldn't find any motivation. I couldn't, uh, it just everything was so wrong. Um, and it was a values alignment.

SPEAKER_01 22:29

It was the values- Could you walk us through, sorry, some of those values, please? Sorry. Yeah, this is uh some that stood out for you.

SPEAKER_00 22:36

Yeah. So the way that um that I operate in the world as far as um how I believe others should be treated was not in alignment with the way that the organization did that.

SPEAKER_01 22:57

So can you give an example? I know you gotta save face here with some people, but can you give us some detail? A little bit.

SPEAKER_00 23:04

Um, so for like for me, if we're talking about, and it's not, oh, I just I try so hard not to get into politics and stuff, but when we're it's not for me, it's not a political issue to treat a kid who is like, you know, gender dysmorphia or whatever, if you if you are presenting that it's not it's not a political issue to treat that kid like with humanity and acceptance and love. I recognize and understand that if your value system does not allow for for that.

SPEAKER_01 23:53

Would you say they're thinking more in terms of the business side? Can I be that sort of cold or is it not that black and white?

SPEAKER_00 24:00

Maybe maybe. Um, yeah, I think it was that. And I think it was just honestly of a significant values misalignment where I felt like the um the organization was taking on the values of a person versus the organization's values. So where the organizational values may have been in alignment, I feel like in reality, um, it was not. And that's unfortunate. And it wasn't the whole organization, but it was definitely present in leadership discussion. Um, and that was that was just really difficult. And then I think too, when you have an organization that size, um, the way that finances are handled, decisions on that level, um, that structural level, as far as looking at rural areas and service versus urban and where dollars are allocated and and what we're doing with those dollars, what contracts look like, what the an RFP process looks like. It was not in alignment with the way that I was comfortable and the way that I had been doing it. And so we don't have clear RFP processes if we don't have, you know, some of those things, which again, I understand relationships and and all of that comes into play, but it was just it was honestly a values misalignment. I'm not saying that it was wrong or unethical. It just did not line up with with the with the values that I have around those things.

SPEAKER_01 25:43

But interestingly enough, you found that same sort of, you know, uh discovery in your dissertation, right? With the mission alignments, right? So I know in the dissertation you're kind of just proving out your hypothesis. Were there some practical things that you were able to sort of learn, uncover, implement, if you will, from that realization of mission alignment and these opportunities for upward mobility?

SPEAKER_00 26:06

Yeah. So what's been really cool is getting to work with especially larger nonprofits on internal pipelines. So, how do we, if you have really high turnover, let's see if this makes an impact. And it is making an impact, it's making a huge difference. And so um, if you're a large nonprofit and you've got opportunities and you make it clear, and then I've been running leadership development cohorts. So I can come in and work with 10 to 15 of your lower to mid-level employees, teaching those, giving them that learning opportunity for one, helping them with self-awareness and understanding their own values, how that lines up with the organization's values. And then showing them through this skill learning, these are the opportunities that you have within this organization, or even with another organization. So you learn these skills and you you've got opportunity to move up with other organizations. And that's it's made a it's made a really big impact. I'm so proud of the leaders of this organization and so thankful that they gave me the opportunity to come in and do this. And um, it's just it's really, really cool. And I'm looking forward to rolling that out on a bigger scale with other um nonprofits and businesses. I think all of this is transferable to the business community as well.

SPEAKER_01 27:35

Oh, 100%. So, Naomi, in that particular um sort of, I call it a study, I guess if you will, when you work with this group. So this is the work sucks, but I like it podcasts. What sucked about that work and what did you do to make it not suck? Right. There's always this, you know, friction, frustration with the work we do sometimes. How did you sort of resolve that and smooth it out?

SPEAKER_00 27:56

Man, I don't know what to I don't know how to answer this because honestly, I loved that whole process. I've loved doing this feature.

SPEAKER_01 28:03

Sunday night work and all. Yeah, no, I got you.

SPEAKER_00 28:05

Yeah, I I hate the admin side of it, but there's nothing I can do about that, and I just have to do it.

SPEAKER_02 28:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:13

I think my hardest starting this company and like and working for myself, the hardest piece has actually been sales, which is crazy because I love fundraising and I have never had a problem with sales, but I can sell for somebody else all day long. There's something different about selling for yourself. I feel you on that.

SPEAKER_02 28:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:36

But and so that's the part that sucks. What has made it easier is really knowing, especially now after being given these opportunities, this absolutely works. It is moving the needle on retention, on engagement, um, on honestly, just happiness with the individuals. Because if you help somebody really figure out who they are and their behavioral patterns and why they make the decisions that they make and those kinds of things, and you can like channel that into being their best self in their workspace, oh, like everybody's happier. Everybody's happier. And and it's just been really, really cool. Um, and I love knowing that it works.

SPEAKER_01 29:25

I love that. Why do you think I feel so similarly, which is so funny? Because I could sell somebody else's thing, but when I talk about my stuff, I'm like, wait, what? Right? Why do you think sales has such a negative sort of connotation to it? Why do you think that?

SPEAKER_00 29:38

Well, I'll say this. I one of my very first jobs when I was a personal trainer, I the markers for most of our fitness managers, they came in, it's not their fault, it's just the way the system is, right? Their accomplishment markers and what they are measured on is how many training packages. So, like I'm a good trainer if I sell a bunch, not necessarily if my clients have any results. Now, if your clients have good results, chances are you'll be better at selling. But I was also just very good at sales. So I could sell these training packages. I wasn't necessarily the best trainer, but I could sell a good training package. And so I ended up being, you know, good in this, good in this role. I and I, and part of how I got burned out there and why I didn't, why I'm not still doing it, was this idea of like, I'm selling to somebody that I know can't afford it, and I know doesn't really need it, but I can sell them on it pretty easily if I wanted to. That's what sucks about sales. And I think that's what people imagine in their minds. Like you think of sales and you think pharmaceutical sales. Well, look at what pharmaceutical sales have done to our country. Yeah. And to people look at how many people get ripped off with a terrible car and you buy a used car and it's the worst. I think that's the that's the connotation, that's the connection that most people make with sales. And it's really unfortunate because there are some really great products and services out there. And I think most of us, especially those of us that are natural salespeople, shy away from it because it's always in the back of our mind, like, oh, am I just tricking this person into spending a bunch of money on something that maybe they don't really need?

SPEAKER_01 31:36

So I feel the same way. That's so funny. So I want to kind of dive into your service, if you will, and you're the Maven consulting. Walk us through how you chose the word Maven. And can you define that for the audience here, please?

SPEAKER_00 31:51

Yeah. So for me, I just I don't even know how I found the word, but then I looked it up and it was like somebody who shares timely and relevant knowledge with others. And it there's more descriptions about um lived experience. So sharing your lived experience with others. And to me, that was just so beautiful. And it was so clearly what I want to do is, you know, I've got almost two decades of leadership experience in a lot of different um kind of areas. And I want to help others so they don't have to learn it themselves. Like I would love to just be able to say, hey, here's my experience with this. Here's how we can shortcut you from going through, you know, the quicksand and and all of the mess that I had to walk through. And I just I love that so much. Um I was not anticipating starting a company when I did. I always knew that I would that I would be doing what I'm doing, but I did think it would be farther down the road. Um and so the timing just worked and it it's been interesting. It's been a really interesting first year and a half figuring out really where I want to put my time and and kind of hang my hang my shingle, like where, what exactly do I want to be doing in these leadership development cohorts and coaching and then speaking have really become very clear that that's where I not only where I enjoy being, but that is where I thrive and can bring the most impact and help to others.

SPEAKER_01 33:32

Do you have like one sort of like case study that you want to share with the audience with your program? Like what was this person? Again, I know I can't disclose all the details, but roughly the problem and sort of the solution that you gave this person to have them succeed.

SPEAKER_00 33:47

So interestingly, I didn't seek this out, but I've kind of found myself working with, I've got four or five right now organizations where their leadership do not get along. And I'm an Enneagram coach and didn't really anticipate using the Enneagram the way that I have. And it was funny because when I did their one-on-one meetings, I was like, man, they all love this organization. They are so passionate and so connected. But their ways of communicating and their behavioral patterns are quite literally the opposite of each other. So they are just constantly making each other angry without even knowing it. And then they're pointing at each other, like, why are you a jerk? Nobody is, nobody is. They're just, you're just so incredibly different in the way that you communicate, in the way that you present information, in your motivation, in um, in your fears, just general fears of the world. And so when you take all of that into consideration about other people, you know, we're different generationally, we're different a lot of the time, racially and ethnically, and um culturally, if we grow up um in in middle class or in poverty, all of these things give you such a different frame and lived experience that completely changes how you view a situation. And so I was talking to somebody that I went to high school with, and she was talking about something that happened at our school. We were both there standing close to each other, witnessing the exact same event. And her experience was so wildly different. Her feelings, her interpretation, like all of it was so wildly different. And if I can help people understand that piece, not just that, you treat other people the way they want to be treated, not the way you want to be treated, because they're a different person. Talk to this person the way they want to be spoken to. You while we're not responsible for somebody's perception, the perception is reality, and we need to do everything that we possibly can to convey the intent behind our message and not just the words. Um, because the words are 50% of the communication. So that is the space that I am currently just loving. Um, and I've I've got four or five teams that have just had huge growth um and communication um like improvement through through working.

SPEAKER_01 36:46

So, what was the one thing that you would attribute to that? You you mentioned you're um you're versed in the Enneagram, right? So I think I'm a three. Um does that mean that the achiever, right? I've taken it years ago. What how do you use, did you use the Enneagram in that particular example? Like Yes. Okay, perfect. Can you walk us through kind of, I guess, first of all, what is the Enneagram for listeners? They might not know what that is. Um, can you talk about that and then how you used it?

SPEAKER_00 37:12

Yeah. So the Enneagram, I I hate calling it a personality typing system, although it is. Um, it is a way to understand your and others' um, I always say behavioral patterns, honestly. So it looks at your your core fear and then your core motivation. And from that, we can anticipate a lot of ways, um, like triggers and uh communication patterns, all of those kinds of things from understanding those couple of things. And so um, interestingly, since you are three, threes, I'm an eight. And so the eight is the challenger. Threes like to control the narrative, right? So uh a personality three's core fear is going to be um not achieving, being rejected. Um I want to make sure that everything looks the way that I want it to look. And eight finds that absolutely impossible. What you see is what you get. And eight, but an eight is gonna challenge everything. And so we want our big, our biggest fear is um deception and somebody trying to control us. And so an eight and a three struggle because a three wants to present what I want you to see, and I'm going to try to mirror what it is that you want so that you will like me, so that I can achieve more, so we can hit our goals, we can move faster. An eight is gonna go, no, but how do you really feel about it? But what's really going on? What's your actual motivation? What are you are you trying to control me through mirroring this behavior or through, you know, presenting things in this kind of way? Are you framing it?

SPEAKER_02 39:03

Don't worry, I'm not selling you on anything.

SPEAKER_00 39:06

Exactly, right? Um, so when you think about a team and you've got uh, let's say an Enneagram one, the improver, there they have got such a clear black and white, right and wrong. If you make the wrong decision is a moral failure. So we've got this kind of improver mindset, some say the perfectionist mindset, um, where especially for a nonprofit or a mission-driven organization, if we're not doing something right and correct, we could be audited and our organization will be shut down. So my interpretation of the mission, vision, values and how I'm going to contribute is going to be based in integrity, truth, right and wrong, keeping everybody structured, um, accountability, those kinds of things. Then you take a three. Well, we have to make sure that this organization looks the best so that we can sell it to the community, so that we can um hit our milestone, so we can achieve more, so we can have good ads and all of these good things, right? So it's gotta be, it's gotta look shiny, good, because if if it doesn't, nobody will support it and there won't be an organization anymore. And eight, who also loves the organization, who's also bought into the mission, is going to come in and say, all right, we've got the social justice issue. So if anybody is downtrodden, the eight is the protector. So we will be looking at the client base or um even if it's a if it's a for-profit company, it would be a department that maybe is overlooked or something like that. So the eight is going to say, if we're not existing to make this person's life better, there's no point in us existing at all. So I will break the rules and burn the whole thing down if I think it's not in line with what we exist to do. A three is going to break the rules to make sure that it looks the way that it's supposed to, because that's what's important when you're selling to the community or when you're building your reputation, all of those things. But a one doesn't care what it looks like. Ultimately, um, we're all everybody's working towards the bottom line and the mission, but a one will always prioritize truth, structure, um, those kinds of things, right? So, so we're all looking at the this the same issue, the same situation so completely differently that it causes such significant communication issues. Because in your mind, if you're an Enneagram one, you would never understand how, how could an Enneagram eight just break the rules? You're unethical and it's a moral failure because you're breaking the rules. But an eight's gonna say, how could you be so stuck on this rule when the rule is broken? The rule is preventing us from doing what we need to do. The rule is the problem. Therefore, I don't care about it. Of course I'm gonna break it. And that mindset can cause the biggest, I mean, it will rip, we've seen it rip churches apart, it's ripped government apart, it's ripped businesses apart, it's torn organizations that serve clients apart. It's and it all comes down to that. So once we can learn to understand where somebody else is coming from and find a way that we can all maintain our values and maintain our voice and what we bring to the situation, if we can respect the positives that somebody else is bringing, it it makes a whole new level of just incredible ability to function and and serve more, hit higher vision bigger, all of those things.

SPEAKER_01 43:30

I love that. I love that like live, you know, kind of breakdown of our relationship here. That was super cool, Naomi. The three and the eight and the strengths and I guess things to think about too. But that was amazing. It's been a pleasure, Naomi, having you on the show. If people want to learn more about their Enneagram, you know, um, or need that timely knowledge from you, where's a good place for them to land?

SPEAKER_00 43:52

They can come to my website, NaomiThemaven.com. I am also on all the social medias, and I love just jumping all calls and Talking to people. So any, I'm very easy to access.

SPEAKER_01 44:04

Awesome, Naomi. Thanks for jumping on this call and doing this podcast. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 44:09

Thank you so much for having me. This has been so fun.

SPEAKER_01 44:12

You don't need to match your degree to your job. You need to connect your work to your passion. Naomi reminds us that burnout isn't just about working too much, it's about misalignment. No growth, no opportunity, no connection to the mission. That's when things really start to break down. And maybe balance isn't about perfectly splitting your time every day. Maybe it's about zooming out and asking, am I investing what actually matters? Family, friends, growth, purpose. Some days that might mean working on a Sunday night to set yourself up for success. Other days it means stepping away completely. Because at the end of the day, we're not here to live to work. We're here to work so we can actually live. Success isn't about luck, it's about skills. And today's skill, continuing to show up and work at it until it clicks. Is your work aligned with who you are becoming? If not, what's one small step you can take to move closer? As always, work might suck, but you can still learn to like it. See you next time.