E73: The Surprising Truth About Work-Life Balance for Nine-to-Fivers with Matt Ogonowski

In this episode, Tony's best friend Matt, a community college buyer, shares his journey from burnout in trucking to finding fulfillment in education. He challenges the corporate ladder myth, emphasizing self-awareness, organization, and hobbies for true growth. Discover insights on work-life balance, the importance of patience and workplace culture, and self-care practices like journaling and yoga. Matt's story inspires listeners to prioritize meaning over money and embrace a life rich in purpose and passion, perfect for anyone feeling stuck or yearning for more outside the office.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:12

When I first asked today's guest, Matt, to come on the show, his response surprised me. He told me he wasn't sure he was the right fit. After listening to so many guests, he felt like his work wasn't particularly remarkable or spectacular. But that's exactly why I wanted him here. Because most of us aren't CEOs, influencers, or climbing some corporate ladder at breakneck speed. Most of us are simply trying to do meaningful work, build a good life, and figure out how to balance it too. Matt describes work as something that can be tedious, busy, engaging, frustrating, and fulfilling sometimes on the same day. He believes it's possible to like your job without making it your identity. He values personal enrichment over promotions, experiences over titles, and a full life outside of work over chasing the next run in the ladder. In this conversation, we talk about burnout, difficult workplaces, getting fired for trying to do the right thing, something that I learned from my best friend. I never knew he got fired too. Setting boundaries, self-care, perfectionism, and why growth isn't always about making more money. Sometimes growth is simply becoming more comfortable with who you are and what matters to you. Success doesn't have to mean climbing higher, but what if it were more about meaning to live better? Let's go right in. All right, well go to the work sucks, but I like it on cast. Today we have a special guest. He's my best friend for the past how long we've been a friend for like six to seven years. Six, seven years. There we go. So I've known Matt for a long time now. He's a bio three at Mount Lacuset Community College. And I'm excited to have him on the show today because we typically have been categorizing entrepreneurs on the show and we'll say nine to fivers. So Matt's going to really bring this unique perspective for working in nine to five. Matt, welcome to the show. Hey Tony, thanks for having me on. This is awesome. Cool, man. Yeah. So Matt's an epic toy collector, just you listeners, and he you can see behind him for the video here. And uh I just still feel like when I look at my Lego set, I my set does not compare to like Matt's collection. So I'm still like bowing down here to the toy collecting God here. But so Matt, so define work for us today. Define work.

SPEAKER_00 2:26

Okay. Yeah. I mean, you know, I guess the first part for work would be, you know, what I do for a job to afford the epic toy collection. That while I think it is epic, I I I don't wanna I don't want you to minimize your epic Lego city because that thing is crazy and I love it so much. It's only in the basement, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

Yours is like throughout the entire house, so that's what I'm like.

SPEAKER_00 2:51

It's spread all throughout. It's it's like a growth, it's like weeds, they're just everywhere. I love them. So yeah, yeah. Uh what I do for work. Uh, you know, I'm a I'm a buyer, like you said, at uh community college, Mount Lachuset, uh Gardener Mass. And um so you know, what I do there is basically procure anything that the college needs, you know, um to the to the standard things that you think about, like pens and notebooks and paper and that kind of stuff, all the way to like, you know, we're buying um trucks right now um for like plows and um and also just kind of dealing with the um construction projects that the college works on. So um it's a lot of it's pretty busy, you know. Um not sometimes it can feel tedious and stuff, so um but it's um I find it really engaging in the sense that you know, I come from the corporate world, which obviously that's where I met you. Um and even before that in my previous career as a trucking manager, um not exactly the fulfilling kind of work that makes me happy. It was making me happy, um, you know, from from trucking stance, like it, you know, it's 24-7, 365, and I'd be dealing with with everything from um accidents, you know, standard accidents and speaking tickets, all the way up to um fatality accidents and and um trailers catching on fire and drivers rolling trailers and like you know, there's there's nothing quite like sitting in your house trying to relax on a weekend and getting a phone call about um, hey, this trailer caught on fire. Um so you know, and and then obviously where you and I met um in the the castings industry, um that had kind of the the I don't know, the less savory part of the things with the US government and stuff that didn't really align for me um to being able to now work in a college where you know we're talking about education community, people trying to go there and better themselves. Um it's not you know, it's nonprofit. I mean, they have to make money obviously to stay open, but that's to cover expenses. The important thing is is is people going there to get education as a communities, you know. It's not about who drives the bigger truck or how many Persian rugs we have or you know, any of that kind of stuff, you know what I mean? Um so yeah, that's that's what I do for work, you know, just just um being a buyer for for the college, and then you know, the other side of work, um, the other things I do for a job are, you know, trying to pursue interests outside of the actual nine to five grind.

SPEAKER_01 5:52

Um so Matt, so walk us through, I want to talk back to your work, but I love where the thread is now. Walk us through work-life balance. You talked a lot about work. Walk us through how you look at is it the right thing we should be talking about? Work and life. Should they be the same? Should be separate. What are your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_00 6:08

I think I think it depends on the individual. So um, you know, for for somebody like you who you've got your job, the one that pays your bills, and then you've got kind of your your other job, like your podcasts and and and writing books, and um, you know, you're you're really taken off of stuff. And and a lot of a lot of entrepreneurial type people maybe don't have that work-life balance. Um, you know, I've got a friend that owns a body modification shop in New Hampshire, and he doesn't necessarily have that work-life balance because those people, you know, people like him and and other people, they own their businesses. And so for them, they may have a little more passion for it. They also um can't necessarily rely on a paycheck. Um so work-life balance for them maybe doesn't mean as much as it might mean to somebody like me who's more the traditional nine to five, and I'm working to have a fuller life outside of work. Um you know, right now, work-life balance is great. You know, I I I go in at eight, I get out at four. You know what I mean? Four o'clock, Matt's out the door. Yeah, I love it. Previously, and those, you know, um, not not not even necessarily where you and I met and worked together, but before, um, you know, I would go in some days at like five in the morning, and you know, I'm not lying, when I said I would leave there at eleven at night and then have to be back again at five in the morning. Um, you know, sometimes even even all the way to midnight. And there just was no work-life balance, and it was very unhealthy for me because it was not necessarily work that I wanted to do. It wasn't work for me. I wasn't building a business for myself or anything like that. I was trying to make money for myself and and um maybe get promoted and that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 8:01

Would you say you burned out, Matt, from like, you know, with the trucks on fire? They literally burned out the trucks on fire on the weekend, but would you say you burned out?

SPEAKER_00 8:10

Yeah, yeah. I I burned out big time, you know. Uh the biggest probably burnout phase was when I was in West Virginia for my first kind of real job trucking company that hired me out of college. And I, you know, I'd moved around and been promoted a lot, but I got down to that West Virginia um location and it just it chewed me up. Um the customer for that site was like a was a bigger retailer, you know, hardware store type place. Um so they're very demanding, and we you know, we didn't have any days off and it was 24 hours a day. And um, but you know, it it killed my relationship. You know, I moved on to West Virginia with my partner at the time and her and I just fell apart. Uh there were other issues. I can't blame it all on work, but there were other issues. And um, you know, probably the the worst thing about that was is we had somebody committing uh payroll fraud, and I wasn't allowed to say anything because this person that was doing the fraud didn't was the one person other than my boss that didn't report to me on site because the drivers reported to me, the other office folk reported to me. This one person. Um but when my former boss moved on to a different site, the first thing I did, of course, was point out the payroll fraud because it's not it's not right, it's not fair. Um, I'm responsible for what the financial numbers look like. So I reported this person. Um and you know, I I shit you not. I got written. Um yeah, I got written up. God. And then when I refused to sign the write-up, I got fired. Wow. That's yeah. It did. And and you know, to have that kind of insult added to the burnout injury almost, you know, and then um, but you know what? It was very eye-opening for me. And um, you know, I mean the next day I was on the I was in my car coming back to uh Massachusetts. So never I only went back to get my stuff and then I never went back to West Virginia or any of that again.

SPEAKER_01 10:15

Now you might have told me that, Matt, and you probably did. I apologize for forgetting, but I didn't realize you got fired. So like we both shared that as well. I got fired, as you know, from a job too, right? So let's go back to that company, Matt, and just put on sort of your imagination hat. If there were one thing that you could have done at that company, other than the fraud thing, to make life better or work better, what would you have done? What should have happened to make work more sort of enjoyable at that company?

SPEAKER_00 10:43

Um I think for me personally, because you know, the company, um I I was at multiple sites and and some were better than others. Um you know, it in hindsight, maybe I would have I would have stayed at my previous location in Pennsylvania. Um I had it it had its own issues, but I had a much more I had a much smaller fleet of drivers, I had a much easier schedule, I didn't have any office folks that I managed. It was it was literally a one-man show, which you know sometimes does make it difficult. But I think I think just being able to find through it through it all, even at the place in West Virginia, if I was able to find some way to get a little bit more um self-care in. You know, I mean it it's hard when you're working that many hours, you come home, you got a partner that also is not from the area, and she's struggling too, and and um you're exhausted, you're stressed out, and you just plop down on a couch or you go out to eat together and and whatever. So, but I think that you know, in in hindsight, first of all, I probably wouldn't have gone there, I would have stayed in Pennsylvania, but um in in this scenario where I went to West Virginia, I probably would have tried to prioritize, you know, some self-care and trying my best to put up some boundaries around work. I do feel that sometimes it's out of our hands a little bit. You know, I mean you're talking about a 24-hour um operation and people have issues all the time and it's a little difficult. I think that some of the negativity that arose from there, uh you know, I definitely know that some of the negativity was was my own fault. I mean, I'm not one of these people that's like I was a victim the whole time and life just kept happening to me. Like, you know, I didn't handle things the best way. I'm human. Um, but yeah, I guess I guess I would have tried to focus a little bit more on getting um some self-care, traveling around the area a little bit more to make more of a full experience out of it versus just living in this house in Martinsburg and and just being unhappy. Yep, no, I love that.

SPEAKER_01 12:57

So, Matt, what are your thoughts with like you know, a 40-hour work week? Right? I know we've kind of talked about it in some sense, but what are your can you just provide for the audience? What are your thoughts on a 40-hour work week?

SPEAKER_00 13:10

Um for me personally, I feel like 40 hours is enough. Um you know, I'm kind of, you know, I'm at a point now, um, in my mid forties, like I'm not I'm not looking to climb that ladder, um, you know, which makes me maybe a little bit different than the usual, right? Um and I'm you know, there was a time before that um where I'd be looking at forty hours and be like, oh man, I would love to work just forty hours, you know. Um it it just it just wasn't happening. It just wouldn't happen. It's just work was too much. And then, you know, going to the place where you and I met was a little bit more of a structured thing. It was a little more than forty, but it was still same hours. And then, you know, where I'm at now and and I'm actually working, uh well yeah, it's it's forty, but I get paid 37 and a half because of the the breaks and the union and all that. Okay. But I mean, back to the back to the question about the 40 hour work week, I think, you know, for somebody in my situation where I try to pursue more of a fulfilling life outside of work while also still liking my job, I I think I'm one of those people that um, you know, the 40-hour work week is just fine. It's perfect for me.

SPEAKER_01 14:33

I love that. I love that. So, Matt, why do you think people want to climb the corporate ladder? You mentioned yourself that you wanted to climb it. Everybody has this sort of dream when they enter corporate, they're like, I gotta climb the corporate ladder. Why do you think we do that?

SPEAKER_00 14:47

Honestly, I think it's money. I do think there's a little bit more to it, though. Um, there was a little bit of so if I'm I'm talking about that first employer, like you get out of college and they hire a lot of young people out of college because they want to kind of mold you to their system, and it makes a lot of sense. Um and there's a little bit of kind of some competitiveness there. You know, you're talking about a bunch of people in their their early 20s, mid-20s, whatever, um, and they want to make money, they want to get promoted, they want to show, hey, I started at this, and now, you know, a year later I've been promoted twice or or what have you. Um, I think there's a little bit of ego to it. I know for me, there was a little bit of that too. Like, you want to be like, hey, I'm doing really well. You know, you went to school, you went to college for, you know, if you got a bachelor's, you went for four years, and you worked hard and you got good grades, or you know, you got the grades you needed anyway to pass to get your degree, whether they were good or not. Um, so you you already kind of have instilled in you of just trying to do really well there in college and get a job, and then you get a job, and you're like, well, now I need to succeed at this, and and I want to really get after it. And um so I think, you know, I think it's those two things, you know, people are trying to make more money, obviously, so they can have um a better life, a fulfilling life. And then there are those people that um a little bit of ego, and and I think in the beginning it was a little bit for me, it became more about just um the financial part for me. I worked with plenty of people my age that were more about the ego type thing, and they weren't afraid to maybe step on other people's heads a little bit to get there, and um, not do anything illegally, maybe do some things that like I wouldn't have done, you know, um treated people a certain way. So I think, yeah, um, just compensation and that that fancy title that you can put on LinkedIn or you know, tell people like, oh, I'm whatever now, you know.

SPEAKER_01 16:51

I mean, I'm not gonna lie, Matt. I was deaf with that in my twenties. I was like, to your point exactly, you get out of college, you're like, okay, I gotta achieve the next thing, succeed in the next thing. And it was like, okay, I want to climb the corporate ladder. And I wanted the titles. And but I was doing it, I like your thing of like, you know, kind of pride and the you know, with um the compensation. I was doing it to I guess it was compensation, to get out of like the job quicker. Like I was just programmed to get to retirement as quickly as I could. And I thought the shortest way to do that, quickest way to do that was to climb the corporate ladder, make more money. Of course, I burned out hardcore, right? I got fired and you know, like all these other things, and it was it was bad. But so, Matt, you mentioned money. So I want you to kind of talk about why are we some people are afraid to talk about money, but let's face it, money provides for a certain lifestyle. Walk us through how you see money in work.

SPEAKER_00 17:46

These days now, um, you know, the I'm looking at money basically at this point. Like my my drive in life now at this point is not money. Like I don't want to maybe I could have stayed in the trucking industry and been making more money than I am now and been just really unhappy and really unhealthy. Um but right now, yeah, money money is important, obviously, and I feel like it's more and more important every day now with kind of the way the state of the world is, where everything is so expensive. Um But you know, if that's it to me that's if you're doing that to drive for money, it's because you're trying to keep up with the expenses. That's one thing. Um but let's let's just say it's not for that. My goal is to just I make what I make to be comfortable. Um if money was my main thing at this point in time, I wouldn't be a buyer at a state college. There is no bonus potential. There is no you know I mean, there's no oh we had a really good year, um, everybody's getting a bonus, uh like a like a increase, I guess. Uh I get my increases of course, but um I could be making more. Um maybe even where you and I met, uh you know, if I'd gotten bumped up a little bit there, maybe I'd be making more than I am now. I don't know. I don't care. Um I'm just looking to money isn't I'm just trying to live a life where money isn't my motivating thing anymore. Um I honestly don't even look towards retirement. And maybe it's a little bit of a different reason. My thing is is that I just don't want to rush those last I don't know, whatever it's gonna be 25 years. Um 20, 25 years. Uh I don't want to rush through those. Um I wanna after all the all the things I put up with for years and years of working in places I didn't want to work, like and now I get a place that I actually enjoy going to. I don't dread it. Like I don't have the Sunday night dreads like thinking about work or trucks on fire.

unknown 19:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:57

I still don't know fatalities, like you know, um, nobody's called me at the mount to tell me that somebody jumped off a bridge in front of their truck. You know what I mean? Like those are calls you hate, but um yeah, you know, I don't I don't have that dread. Work work is just where I go to make money, so I'm not looking to rush to retirement or anything like that. Um, you know, I'm and also money is not my motivating thing there anymore. It's just to have a nice full life outside of work and and also do a job where, like I said, it aligns really well with my kind of um values and stuff. Like I I care about education and that kind of thing, and it is more important to me than getting a trailer full of goods somewhere or getting these, you know, raw materials for a casting or or or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Buying somebody's rugs.

SPEAKER_01 20:53

Yeah, exactly. So, Matt, how do you stay motivated or how do you when you show up to work, right? You said that money's kind of this thing that yes, it's important. So walk us through how you show up each day at work now. Like what kind of brings you joy aside from the paycheck, of course.

SPEAKER_00 21:09

You know, what what keeps me motivated is just uh making the most of this opportunity. Um, you know, working for a a state entity like that, there's a lot of there's a lot of laws and things that I have to follow. And it's different from the corporate one. You know, like the corporate world will have its, well, these are our these are our corporate rules, and of course you can't break the law, but these are our corporate rules. But you know, when we're talking about a state job at a college, like I need to follow these things, the same things that like a city hall would follow or any of these other things. They gave me an opportunity with zero state experience um to come in there and and do that job. And, you know, there's the added kind of fun fact that like I went to that school before I went to UMass. Yeah, I got my associates there first and then went on to UMass to get my bachelor's. And like it's kind of neat to come back twenty plus years later and be like, yeah, I used to be a student here and now I work here. That's cool. Um yeah. And then, you know, like furthermore, on the motivation is just learning the laws, the getting more comfortable with the state laws. And, you know, part of my job is posting like invitations for bid or in requests for proposals, and like I have to post those on state websites and you know, draw up a document that has all the information needed for the proposal and stuff. So it's it's kind of interesting. Um, it's motivating in that it's nice to be able to help people in the cause like with a need that they have, like, oh, we want to get this vendor for this. Like we did vending machines, we did some other stuff. And it's nice to be able to have these people come to you and say, you know, hey Matt, um, I really would like to look for this. And um you provide them with a bunch of information, they're very appreciative. And the just the level of appreciation that the people around a college have for just, you know, to me and probably to you or anybody who's working corporate is the bare minimum is just showing up and doing your job. But there, people just appreciate you listening and caring about what they have going on. And um, I tell everybody there, like, if there's something that you feel like is a rush, I said don't be afraid to tell me, don't be afraid to be like, hey Matt, you know, this is really I'll stop what I'm doing because that corporate world thing did kind of instill in me, a positive thing, is just like, you know, everything needs to be done right away. And if somebody there in a kind of a more laid-back environment suddenly has a need, like I don't want them to be afraid to ask because they think I'm just gonna be like, no, man, that's your problem. Like, let me know. And then it's very fulfilling to be able to make stuff happen for people. Um, so I kind of you know, I'm motivated by that. I'm I'm motivated by helping people there. I know what the impact it has on the community there at the college, and then um just learning and trying to make the most of this opportunity, you know. It's it's just it's so much different. And you know, um in my prior to my last job, I tried so hard to get out of that industry. Like I tried, like I would try and try, be like, well, I have a college degree, I have management experience, like and I have um financial responsibilities at that job and human resources, and I'd be like, this would be I'm a great, I'm a I could sell myself, I'm a great pickup for somebody. And nobody would call me for anything that wasn't like just transportation, you know? Um so to be able to make that switch out of transportation at that company you and I met at, and then continue that on to a new thing, that's motivating right there, because it's like I really want to make the most of this because I was able to make a career change and then you know, make the most of this opportunity.

SPEAKER_01 25:00

I was like, I think you hit something critical, Matt, right? So we get under the impression when I look at a resume now, it's like this person has 10 years experience at this job. But what you're kind of talking to is like you learn skills from different jobs that you can take with you to other positions. So I guess where I'm going with that is how do you see growth at your job today? Right. So you talked about, you know, no it doesn't lure you to to to you know get to um to climb the corporate ladder or to, you know, whatever. Well, how do you see growth today at work?

SPEAKER_00 25:32

I see it as uh getting more comfortable and more fluent with these kind of regulations that I have to follow. Um becoming more and more sure of myself. Um, you know, I still have my gaffs. Um, you know, it there is a lot to remember. And then there's, you know, the added stress of life and and things that go on outside of work. But um, so for me, growth is just becoming that person that's more and more competent and people are able to rely on to get the right answers right away, um, and not have me sitting there stammering or, you know, um, I don't know, I'll get back to you. Like uh and that that all just comes with time and experience, and that's something I learned in those previous jobs is just just doing. You know, I didn't know I didn't know trucking regulations or anything when I got to college. That's not a class I took, and and I had to learn all that, and and and I did. Um, but you know, for me now, it's it's it's kind of just getting better at it, being more confident. You know, we we have these meetings with other so we have community college procurement people, we meet every few months on Zoom and we just talk about what's going on at our colleges and what we need and and you know, can we help each other with stuff? And then we have the larger meetings at UMass um with you know some of the state college buyers, um, and maybe procurement managers and such. And going to those now or being on those now, um I feel less intimidated, um, certainly on the ones with my you know community college uh colleagues, um, where I'm actually able to talk on those Zoom things or maybe offer something, you know, um, whereas before it was more just kind of sitting there listening and being a wallflower because I didn't know a lot what's going on. So I can just see in in that time since the last like the last meeting we had a few like uh I think it was last month, uh just the the level of like comfort that I've had. And and that to me is is kind of the the growth and and the skills and stuff.

SPEAKER_01 27:40

I love that. So how walk us through like one thing that a workplace culture needs to do to make someone like yourself feel comfortable to grow. What is one thing that is needed in workplace cultures today?

SPEAKER_00 27:54

Well, I would say just patience. Uh um, you know, I mean sometimes somebody could be hired and and and just honestly not fit a role um for whatever reason. They were hired for something and um they didn't work out. Um usually I think that has to do with a lack of effort or maybe a personality clash, but I think sometimes, you know, you hire people like like me at the mouth, for instance. Like I went in there and I did my job interview, um, my second job interview that I had there, I had the one on the Zoom and then I had the one in person. Um and it was very intimidating because there was um six other people. There were six people in there interviewing me in in this big conference room, and it was, you know, I'm not I'm an introvert, so that's hard for me to as you know. I walk into that room and I'm just like, what? Um but you know, I went in there and and you know, my personality kind of shine I had a good personality day that day, I guess, and it kind of shined through. And um so just they they saw something in me at that point, you know. Um I was very honest with them. I I said I didn't have this kind of experience, but I talked about some of the the nitty-gritty stuff at our previous employer. Um, and I think they were kind of like impressed with just the the technical babble type type thing, you know, and um so they've had the patience with me, you know, um to to say, okay, Matt doesn't have this this experience, this particular experience, but he's got this other experience. And even going back to my first employer who, yeah, it didn't end well after five years, but I'll always be thankful to them for hiring me and just putting me in the in the you know, kind of throwing me to the to the wolves almost. Not as bad as all that, but they were their thing was like this is how you learn. So um, but they also had patience. They had to have patience with these people, and and and it paid off. Like they would they would have this patience for you to learn and and this and that, and and that's that's how I became kind of good at my job there. You know, I I got an MVP award there and stuff, and which is kind of funny how it all just ended the way it did because I did win awards there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Um, but yeah, I think patience is the the biggest thing. They just I'm not saying, you know, if somebody keeps screwing up, you just keep giving them more leash, but you know, you shouldn't rush people or um, you know, if they're new or whatever, let's just have a little bit of patience with them because if you're operating based on fear, people are gonna be afraid to make mistakes and they're just gonna make them anyway now because they're too afraid to do something wrong. Well, they'll just be like a deer in the headlights, right? They'll just be afraid to make any decision at all.

SPEAKER_01 30:45

No, absolutely. So, Matt, you know, as a listener of this show, um we say that success is not a matter of good luck, it's good skills. What would you say is the most important skill that you've been developing in the work that you do?

SPEAKER_00 30:58

Just I guess for me, my the skill that I'm kind of developing now is just not not so much the patience, but like um think of your Diablo character.

SPEAKER_01 31:09

What are you leveling up? My new paladin? Exactly. You got bail coming up in Act 5. I don't even know the new Diablo 4. So what's the what's the one skill that you're doing to level up?

SPEAKER_00 31:20

I right now, so I'm kind of an organized guy, anyway. But this particular job has made me have to learn a a whole new level of organization because there's just so much going on. Like I kind of touched on the state stuff, like there's a lot of things to know, a lot of things that can be screwed up, a lot of things that if they're not done in an organized way or a more timely way. Like I kind of mentioned how the things at the school are laid back, but when you start talking about kind of the state stuff that has to be done, there is no laid back there, and that has to be done, or like certain construction vendors are not going to get paid, and and that's not good. So it's more for me, it's been about developing more organization because I really need to keep on top of those things. Like I make a lot more notes than I ever had before. Um, you know, I've always had like a notebook at my desk, but it would just be there for years and years and years because I would just keep it in here. Um, but there's so much going on that, you know, I ripped through that notebook. I ripped through the post-it notes, the post-it note on the computer, even that I use. Yeah. Um, you know, so it's this particular skill, which, you know, it's maybe not the the most impressive skill. And it's one I kind of had before, but I've had to level that organization up because it's easy to get forget and get overwhelmed.

SPEAKER_01 32:47

But I think that's such an important skill today of organization, Matt, right? We have so many, they call it the paradox of choice, right? We have so many things we can decide upon. I feel like we need organization to figure out what the hell we're doing. Yeah, right. You know?

SPEAKER_00 33:01

Right. I you you don't want to always have people come to you and you forgot or you don't know, or whatever. I mean, you know, because you didn't look into it, you didn't do the work, or um, I'm a big proponent of like if somebody sees me um upstairs eating lunch reading a book, um, or or reading a beta reading a book, even. Yeah, yeah, right, right, exactly. Right. Uh on your iPad, like I was doing today, I always tell those those people, I said, Yeah, just email it to me. Um, you know, email this conversation to me because um, you know, I'm human, uh, I'm gonna forget. You know, I'm at lunch, I'm I'm trying to read, and um, if I see somebody in the hall on the way there, on the way back, or just while I'm sitting there, I may not remember, and I need somebody to email me. So I'm always telling people, yeah, no problem, just email it to me so I remember, so I have that, you know, and you know, my earlier joke aside, it is kind of an important skill to have because any job, any job. I imagine that the corporate world, without any kind of organization, if I could have tried to do it without that, we'd be gone real quick. So it'd be a shit show.

SPEAKER_01 34:11

So no, we definitely need the organization for sure. So, Matt, you talked about reading a book, and for those of you listeners, the joke is Matt is actually beta reading my third book on yoga. So thank you, Matt. So I want you to talk about self-care, Matt. So you've kind of mentioned it throughout. What are some things you just talked about? The book, what do you do for self-care?

SPEAKER_00 34:31

On the on the more, you know, healthier side, like health-conscious side, like, you know, um, I started journaling. Love that. Um, you know, I've had a little bit of conflict or turmoil in my personal life, and the journaling has been helping, but it also helps just with, you know, stuff outside of that, just kind of what I'm up to. And um, you know, writing it down definitely helps versus typing it out. Yeah. Um, sometimes at work I will kind of make if I if I feel like I need to, I'll make like a an email, a draft email, just type my thoughts on it, and then just save it as a draft. So I have a few drafts in my outlook right now at work of just thoughts and stuff. But yeah, I try to journal. Yeah, I go to the gym in the morning before work. Um, you know, I'm never gonna be in a weightlifting conver uh competition or anything like that, but it it it makes me feel good um to go there and and get that kind of rock that out before work. And um you know, you know, we used to I used to do yoga a lot more, um, but that's working its way back into my life and you know, um get the Lord of the Rings Matt back out, you know. Yeah, yeah. We could go do some um power flow and and nearly die.

SPEAKER_01 35:49

Yeah, right. The tonin flow, whatever the hell class that was. Tone and flow. That's what it was. That shit was crazy.

SPEAKER_00 35:56

I'm surprised I didn't die. Um me too. I've done that class. And then, you know, other other things too, just like, you know, um I took the the drawing class last summer. Um, you know, as a perk for my job, I get to take free college classes, and I always wanted to learn to draw. So um two nights a week for four hours for whatever it was, six or eight weeks. I was drawing and doing all that homework after work with three hours a night.

SPEAKER_01 36:23

And I love that you would send me the drafts and you would like add to the the um the drawings of like Godzilla. I'm like, yes, that is so mad.

SPEAKER_00 36:33

It's so funny that it's so funny to me that the professor never like you know, because she had to see the stuff, like the cityscape, you know, is learning how to draw like one point perspective, and then the other one was like two-point perspective. And it's like, here's a cityscape, and what goes better in a cityscape than the bat signal or Godzilla? Clearly, I mean, yeah, you can't have a city without it. Yeah, I mean, that's every city I've been to has had Godzilla or a bat signal in it. So um, yeah, it's funny though, it's just completely just ignored by her. She didn't even have a comment about it, which I thought it was awesome, but so you know, practicing drawing, um, you know, and that's another one too, where it's like trying to level it up. There's you know, I'm not great at it, um, but you know, I try to keep at it and and try to get better. Um, I like to play guitar again, you know, I'm not amazing, but I like to just do it. And um, so it's maybe more of my productive type self-care things. And then, you know, I like to dabble in the video games a little bit, play a little Diablo here and there.

SPEAKER_01 37:39

Dabble is a light word, by the way. Matt likes to clear the entire map, folks. Okay. You gotta clear it all, man. You gotta clear it all. I mean, you gotta get your money's worth. So I don't know why. Matt I love it. I love it. So talk to us, Matt, about the hobbies, right? I love this. And I want you to kind of segue into retirement. So I guess like what are your hobbies? I love how you're passionate about them now. Why do you do them? I guess for self-care, but then segue into what is your thoughts on retirement?

SPEAKER_00 38:10

I I do the hobbies, you know. Um, obviously playing video games isn't something that's gonna give me any kind of skill, uh, you know, my phones, but um, but like the the the drawing and and um the guitar and um you know, painting like those little gaming minis that I painted. Oh yeah, I remember that.

SPEAKER_01 38:30

You do like the little scenes too, yeah. That was really cool.

SPEAKER_00 38:32

Yeah, you know, I love that. It brings more fulfillment to my life because you know, as much as I love my job, um, there's not a lot of room for creativity necessarily. Um and maybe there would be if like you know, this was a passion project or you know, I had my own business. Certainly I could see there being creativity, but there's not a lot of creativity, there's not a lot of way for me to kind of show my personality in certain ways. And so pursuing these hobbies is you know a way to challenge myself outside of work. Um, like I said, my drawings are not great. Um, my guitar skills are not all that, you know. I mean, I can competently play, but um, nobody's gonna be like, wow, what a savant. And you know, my gaming minis, uh, yeah, they're painted. We'll say they're painted, um, but they're not gonna win any awards. But that Christmas scene was pretty epic, by the way. That you said I mean that I love that. That is pretty my favorite thing I've I've done in my entire life. Yeah, that was really cool. Yeah. Um, so yeah, the the hobbies are just they're a way for me to get more fulfillment out of life and experience things that I don't want to I know I'm not supposed to have any regrets in life, but I feel like people are always gonna have some kind of regret um at the end of the road. And I never want to be like, well, you know, geez, I wish I had done uh I wish I had really tried to draw because I've always wanted to draw because I like comic books, I like tattoos, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 40:04

I just I just like it. Um so why do people wait till retirement, Matt? Why do people wait to do these things?

SPEAKER_00 40:11

Yeah, I don't I don't know. It seems like such a bad idea. No, now maybe people have to work a lot. Um you know, like a truck driver, for instance. You know, if if you're if you're a truck driver and and you only get when you're working, you only get a 10-hour break. Um, and you're gonna probably spend six or seven of those hours sleeping. And if you're in a if you're in one of those kind of trucks where you don't sleep in it and you come home every day, maybe you have kids and you're trying to catch their game or or just spend time with them and you've got a spouse, you know, a husband or wife or something, or just a partner, and y you may be like, Well, you know, I I just spent 14 hours driving truck working, and I only have X amount of hours, like I really should spend it with my family. So maybe it's a little bit of they don't have time because work is too much. Gotcha. Um but I think too, it's just fear of perfectionism. Uh-huh. What do you mean? What do you mean? Build on that, please. When you start out doing something, um and I've been guilty of it. Like, oh, I can't get this right the first time. I'm not meant for this, I'm not cut off for this, screw it, I'm not doing it anymore. And I think that sometimes that stops some people. Like I said, it it has stopped me in the past. It stopped me from this drawing class wasn't the first time I tried to draw. Like I got books and stuff, but I'm much more of like a classroom type learner when it comes to something like that. So um, but I think you know, perfectionism causes people not to do stuff. Like I would love to do some writing myself, you know. Like I've got these, like I like to read fiction, obviously. You know that, but for the listeners, like I like to read fiction, I like fantasy, I like monsters, you know, any nerdy th anything a 13-year-old would read is basically what I say. Like, I like I like to read. Um and you know, I get caught up in that too, because I'm like, oh geez, you know, I I don't I don't know that I could write as well as these guys. Well, of course not. Nobody can. Um, you know, the first time out, you know. Um whatever your favorite author is, anybody, like that person's first work probably wasn't their favorite after a little while. And um, but yeah, I think I think people wait to retire and it's just a combination of feeling like they don't have time, and maybe they legitimately don't, or feeling like they don't have time and they did have a lot of time, but they were looking at well, I guess it's more of a modern thing, looking at TikTok or looking at Facebook, or um, you know, time wasters that sometimes, you know, I don't have Facebook or anything, I have Instagram, and sometimes I get wrapped up looking at toys on there.

SPEAKER_01 42:57

But it's tough on Instagram, right? Like I've been off it, as you know, and we would always send me like epic Lego collections, and I'd send you like Lord of the Rings stuff, but yeah, I've totally dropped off, I know, but it's so addicting, right? But you lose so much time, you know, it's crazy online.

SPEAKER_00 43:12

You do. You can just you can just lose track of time, and it's just amazing, you know. Like, really looking at this app ate up this many hours or something, or it just like made you sit there like a log after you're done looking at it. And um, you know, again, I've been guilty of that myself, but I think that sometimes people have this perception that they don't have time, and they get into these routines of coming home from work and sitting on a couch, and then that's what they do all night. Um and like I said, I'm guilty of it too, but Me too. You have yeah, I mean sometimes you have to listen to your body sometimes and say, Okay, yeah, no, we're just tired and burnt out. Like we need to watch Lord of the Rings or Exactly Star Wars. The extended version, by the way. Oh yeah, yeah. I mean, there is no other version. Yeah, well right, I'm just uh Making that clear. Yeah. Yeah. If you're gonna watch it, anybody if you haven't seen it, you're gonna watch, you gotta watch the extended because you've got to get the full whole picture of it. Exactly. Full epic picture.

SPEAKER_01 44:11

Exactly. So Matt, this is the work sucks, but I like it podcasts. What is something that sucks today with your work? And what are you doing to make it not suck?

SPEAKER_00 44:20

Um you know, thing that thing that sucks is it's kind of it it's gonna seem repetitive, but it's not knowing. Um you know, the my confidence level is up, but um you know I haven't fully leveled that up. And so the thing that kind of sucks is just the amount of laws and regulations and that sort of thing that I have to learn. Um but learning makes it suck less, obviously. But I would say that's that's probably the one the only thing I can honestly say about this job that that sucks right now. You know, if if we had talked about this maybe two years ago, I probably would have talked for 45 minutes about what sucks. If it was, you know, a few years before that even we probably would needed a whole day to talk about what sucks. But um it's just it's just about the the constant learning. Um the learn the learning is a positive, but in some some cases it's kind of you know just a negative only in that you realize sometimes like, oh, I I I still need to learn stuff. I need to so um but yeah, it's just the one thing that just sucks is just how many state laws there are and little things that you need to know and and you can't really overlook stuff. Um so yeah, I would say that's that's probably the the only thing, as maybe as boring as that is, like it's just um the amount of regulations and kind of whatever you want to say, red tape or whatever around certain things.

SPEAKER_01 45:55

Gotcha. So Matt, I know you're a big listener of the show, and I appreciate that. And again, best friend for years now. But why I'm just curious, and I just want the audience to hear this, kind of your raw answer. What other than the fact that we're friends, right? So I appreciate you supporting me, of course. But why do you listen to this podcast? What is your hope to get from listening to this podcast?

SPEAKER_00 46:18

I listen to your podcast besides the friend thing, because there are a lot of there's a lot of great advice on there, right? Like there's a lot of you have a lot of um great guests on your show um where I have nothing in common with them. Uh you know, um, but it's it's super interesting to hear everybody's journey and and what they've been up to and how they got to where they are. But even if um an episode maybe, you know, somebody is is an entrepreneur or something, there's always something in an episode that I can take away. Um, you know, I've I've I had heard the term about how um, you know, I don't have to go to work, I get to go to work. I had heard that prior to your show, but it's something I'd forgotten about, and I I know that I've heard it at least once, and I feel like I've heard it a couple of times on your podcast. Um, and it does help. Like just that one line from that one episode that I can remember about it.

SPEAKER_01 47:20

Um remember, I got schooled on that too, because I butchered it too. So he told me I get to do it. So I got coached right there. So yeah, I clearly forgot too.

SPEAKER_00 47:29

Yeah, it's we lose try we lose sight of that. We do. You know, um, you know, whether you want to go into a bigger conversation about the people that don't get to go to work, like and and do the things we do and and maybe make, you know, a a living where they don't have to struggle a lot, or or just the fact that like, you know, we have jobs that maybe other people wanted and they didn't get. Um I assume somebody interview other people interviewed for your job. I know other people interviewed for my job, but we got them. Yeah. Um, so we get to go in and do these jobs. And I know you like your job and and you're thriving there, and so you get to do that. I get to do what I do. And um so you know, about your about your podcast, just for me the the thing I like most about it is just being able to listen to people and how they cope with life and work and stuff and little pointers they might give. Sometimes they don't apply, but um the conversations are always interesting, and then um the times of the things that they that do apply, like I I keep them here and then I write them down. I've got a little notebook um in my lunchbox that I keep notes of. Like that's just for me, it's not a work notebook. And um I will write down things from your podcast, or if I'm listening at my desk, I will write them down. Um, I wish I could think of them right now, but that's why I write them in the notebook. Um, but yeah, there were there were a few things from uh a few of your guests that I've written down on there that I've wanted to follow back up on. So yeah, there's a lot of great stuff in there.

SPEAKER_01 48:57

Well, thanks, man, for your feedback and thanks for being on the show. Like, how cool is that? You've been a listener since day one, and here you are guesting on the show. So, Matt, you're the man.

SPEAKER_00 49:07

Yeah, yeah, thanks for having me. I'm I'm glad uh glad we were able to link up and um you know I wasn't sure if I'd be a great fit or guest for you because my life seems a little bit more um not boring, but you know, more typical or whatever word you want to use than than some of the other people. And but, you know, I think there's value sometimes in what I have to say.

SPEAKER_01 49:31

That's exactly the barrier I want to break down, man, is that shit of like people thinking you have to do epic things. Like you already doing epic things, right? You're doing, you know, the toy collection you have, you're doing drawing. It's just like I just feel like just be. And you are literally, if I were to say, no, it's because you're my friend here, but like you're the perfect guest because you're just being. You are being who you are. You're trying these things. Like you said, you admit that you're not great. Yeah, no one's not everyone's gonna be Michael Phelps and LeBron James and Tiger Woods and Mia Ham, right? Most of us are average, and that's okay. And that's really what I want to celebrate on the show. So, Matt, thanks again for taking your time tonight and being on the show, man.

SPEAKER_00 50:12

Yeah, man. Thanks. Thanks for having me, and I'm uh I'm pumped to be here and and talk to you about this stuff. It's great.

SPEAKER_01 50:18

One thing I really appreciated about this conversation with Matt is how grounded his definition of success is. For him, work isn't about status, ego, or accumulating titles. It's about doing something that aligns with his values while preserving the time and energy to build a rich life outside of work. We talked about burnout, boundaries, and the reality that work-life balance isn't always completely within our control. Yet Matt continues striving towards healthier habits, better self-care, and a more intentional relationship with work. Another point that stood out was his perspective on experience. Too often we assume years equals expertise. We've all met someone who proudly says they've been doing something for 20 years, yet somehow they've never developed the skills that truly matter. And as Matt pointed out, skills matter more than time served. And if there was one skill he kept coming back to, it was organization. The notebooks, the sticky notes, the systems, the habits. I still remember Matt's awesome Frankenstein notepad, a reminder that sometimes the best productivity tool is the one you're going to use. Whether it's a fancy app, a legal pad, sticky notes, or a monster themed notebook, find your system and stick with it. That's the skill for today to be successful and not rely on luck. Because organization isn't about perfection, it's about creating enough structure to focus on what matters. Thank you for listening to WorkSucks, but I like it. If you enjoy this conversation, share it with someone who's trying to build a meaningful life both inside and outside of work. Until next time, keep doing work that aligns with your values, keep developing the skills that matter. And don't forget to enjoy the life you're working so hard to create.