SPEAKER_03 0:00

Studying and you're doing your degree. Because you have four years, you need to do a lot also in those four years. Looking back, there's some things I would have done different. Yes, I I I I I was in school, but at the same time I was working in set design. But at that time, had I also found the niche that I wanted to be in, I would have even started that training at that time. So within these four years, you need to be busy. You need to go looking for places where you can do certifications, where you can do your trainings, where you can go and volunteer or do whatever it is that needs to be done. Because the moment you graduate, the way the industry is right now, people need money. You need to pay bills. So the moment you graduate, you're looking for a job really. Or you're looking for a place where you're going to get um like to be in probation and then like for a certain period, like three months, and then after that, you get into work. Now, who's going to give you a job if you don't have any experience? The best thing is to get this experience when you're in school.

SPEAKER_05 0:54

Welcome to the Studio Little Bold podcast, where vision meets execution, creativity finds clarity, and mentorship unlocks potential. I'm your host, Abigail Ossidiana, and this is the space for designers, dreamers, and change makers looking to build bold ideas and shape the future of interior design. Hi guys, welcome back to our channel. Today we have Jackie on set. Jackie does a lot of things, wears many hats, but what I want you to really remember, and I'll ask her in the course of the podcast, is she is an edge expert. So remember, edge ni nini. I will ask her to explain, to describe so that we are all um educated and schooled. So, Jackie, thank you so much for joining our podcast, for honoring our invite and karibu karibu sana.

SPEAKER_03 1:41

Thank you so much, Abby. First, thank you so much um for inviting me for this podcast. Um, there's a lot that is happening here, and there's a lot of conversation happening. There's a lot of enlightenment from people, education. So I'm grateful that you started a podcast like this just so that you can be able to enlighten any students out there or anybody who's practicing, encouraging them to be a lot more professional. So thank you. Uh as you've heard, my name is Jackie, Jackie Washukam Osheru. I handle many hearts. I am the founder of a company called Design Cafe. It's a consultancy firm. Uh, we do we offer consultancy services for interior design and project management. Um, we are also offer consultancy services in sustainability, um, advisory on biophilia and also on wellness and well-being. Including that, I am also an edge expert. I am a member of KGBS, which is the Kenya Green Building Society. I am also head the interior design chapter at our association, which is ADK, uh Association of Designers of Kenya. And currently I am heading a technical working group that is putting together the green building standards. Thank you.

SPEAKER_05 2:50

You're most welcome. But let's explain to a layman what edge expert is.

SPEAKER_03 2:57

Okay, so um we have certifications that can be given to people who have decided to advance their knowledge on sustainability platforms. Um, and one of these uh certifications is edge. So edge is excellence in design for greater efficiencies. So ideally, what they do is that they train you on how to how to bring in efficiencies in your projects, that is in terms of energy. Um, so that is energy efficiency, um, the water conservation and uh materials. So basically, what they do is that um they help you be able to assess your project on how efficient your lighting systems are, how efficient your water systems are, so they also guide you on the kind of light fittings, for example, you need to select just so that your project is a lot more sustainable. And there's also something they call embodied carbon in materials. So, ideally, um when you look at materials and the way materials are manufactured, there's a lot of carbon emission that is done. So, what they do is they try to align you more towards sustainable materials. Um, and in areas where you cannot get locally manufactured sustainable materials, they help you assess materials that are existing in your area that have reduced uh level of carbon emission during its manufacturing. Wow, yeah, that's a lot.

SPEAKER_05 4:16

She does a lot, and on top of that, she's a mom, she's a wife, she's running a design firm. I don't know how you do this, Jackie.

SPEAKER_03 4:24

Well, it's a lot, but it's a balancing act. But I think for me, because I am passionate about all, that is why I am able to handle them and handle them very seamlessly.

SPEAKER_05 4:33

Yeah, tell us, yeah, Campo, did you go to university or no?

SPEAKER_03 4:38

I did. My design journey actually started um with a basic training in interior design. I have a degree in interior design from um School of Design in University of Nairobi. That is where I did my basic training, and then um after that I have done um a certification. Say, for example, now the edge, uh, the edge the edge certification. And I keep improving my knowledge um as such, as soon needs be. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 5:08

Like Lily said, she said her basic training is in in Indian design with her degree.

SPEAKER_03 5:14

Yes, that is what actually I studied in the University of Nairobi. Uh, but then along the way, there's some things that you have had to learn on the job. Yeah, like project management. Um, by the time I started to practice, I had to learn how to be a project manager before I even went to study for it. And of course, now the studies came later on where you try to gain knowledge because you realize as a consultant, especially a design consultant, most of the time you're the one who is going to be running your own project. So you basically must also learn how to be a project manager. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 5:45

So give us a quick rundown of timeline of your education because you have your degree and then you have other certifications. Just for someone who wants to take a similar path or explore a similar path, what do timelines kind of look like? Degree X amount of time, then this X amount of time.

SPEAKER_03 6:05

So, um, so I the degree program um in the University of Nairobi is four years. That is um the whole course. But in the four years, you can manage to do other certifications in between if you'd want to, which for me I would actually recommend. If you plan to specialize in something, um, especially in the interior design field, maybe you want to specialize in sustainability, maybe you want to specialize in maybe materials um or maybe colour psychology, and you want to be a color expert, that is something that you can pursue while you're pursuing your degree. So for me, I basically did the I basically did the four-year design program, but within the design program, I also did a bit of study in media and film. And the reason why I did this is because I always thought that maybe I can be a set designer. And I wondered how do people become set designers? Where do you start? So I did a certification, um, a course um at an institute, at a media institute where I became, you know, a professional videographer.

SPEAKER_05 7:10

This is a point.

SPEAKER_03 7:12

This was in my second year of campus.

SPEAKER_05 7:14

So these are the short courses that you're seeing that you can do in between.

SPEAKER_03 7:18

Yes, exactly. So I did a bit of media, so that was like was like in second year, um, I became a professional videographer, and within like a few months I became a set designer. And that's how I started building and designing sets.

SPEAKER_05 7:32

The videography took how long? So you took it short.

SPEAKER_03 7:34

The videography, the course was about three months.

SPEAKER_05 7:36

So it doesn't take so long. So during the long holidays, you can slot that in.

SPEAKER_03 7:40

Yes, yes, yeah, you can do that. It took three months, and then after that, now I was able to work um practicing now the videography because the essence for me was I wanted to learn how to build sets, but then I wanted to know what the camera sees. So if I could be behind the camera, then I know what I'm gonna look for when I am in front of the camera, which I did um that for about three months, the videography part. Then after that, I transitioned into set design, and now that is when we would build sets for any uh TV productions that needed to be done. Um, yeah, so that's what happened, and then now within the period at which I was in university, I was working in film, so I did the art uh direction at that point, and then now upon graduating, I went and started off my I worked in my first job, and then now in between, of course, I would do online studies without much certification, and until 2023 is when I decided, you know, because by this time I had already found my niche and I'd already found myself, I knew what I wanted to do as a designer, which was I wanted to pursue a lot uh a lot of sustain uh areas in sustainability. So by this time I decided, you know what, I maybe should go back and have a sort of a certification in this, and that's when I did the training in edge, and then I sat my exam and I became an edge expert.

SPEAKER_05 8:56

Hang on. Um, I wrote set design. How long did the set design training take?

SPEAKER_03 9:02

Uh no, no, the set designing training is on the job. Okay, okay. Because you're going to be in a film set, so you're going to go and find find art directors there. But you see, the luck is I was already in design school, so I had a bit of basic skills of design. So by the time now I got to transition to set design, and my art director was like, Yeah, you have basic uh skills in design, so we are going to use that to help train you to become an art director. So that yeah, that's how it happened.

SPEAKER_05 9:29

How long were you with them?

SPEAKER_03 9:30

I I was with them. Um, let me say um the period of film and art direction took about two and a half years because it went all the way to my fourth year until now I took an academic break because I needed to um do my project. So it took about two and a half years.

SPEAKER_05 9:48

So this two and a half years is during the holidays or pl including school, the school days.

SPEAKER_03 9:54

It it is including the school days. So I had such a busy day because I would wake up and um the way UN is structured, um, you have your theory classes in the morning, and then in the afternoon is where you have your studio sessions. So I would go to class early in the morning, like maybe from 8:39, and then all the way to about one o'clock, I have my theory classes. Then my studio sessions in the afternoon, I sometimes would go some days, sometimes I don't, because also the film sets, I would go like three days, I would do it like three days a week. So I now have day. So I now balance the set design plus now the schoolwork. Then now you do most of your project research and the write-ups over the weekend.

SPEAKER_05 10:33

So essentially you're telling people that when you're doing your degree, you have a lot of time if you want to, if you want to just do things, you have time to try out, to learn new things, so that by the time you're getting out, you're not really at zero years of experience. Because I remember someone had made a comment um or asked, sometimes you leave school and then you're looking for internships, sometimes you're volunteering, but none of us to give you these opportunities, yeah. Yet they're asking for you need to have a minimum of two years of experience. Where am I getting that two years of experience from? Yes, sir, sir. You have been answered.

SPEAKER_03 11:06

So, first of all, um, what I would say is that when you're studying and you're doing your degree, because you have four years, you need to do a lot also in those four years. Looking back, there's some things I would have done different. Yes, I I I was in school, but at the same time, I was working in set design. But at that time, had I also found the niche that I wanted to be in, I would have even started that training at that time. So, within these four years, you need to be busy, you need to go looking for places where you can do certifications, where you can do your trainings, where you can go and volunteer or do whatever it is that needs to be done. Because the moment you graduate, the way the industry is right now, people need money. You need to pay bills. So the moment you graduate, you're looking for a job really. Or you're looking for a place where you're going to get um like to be in probation and then like for a certain period, like three months, and then after that you get into work. Now, who's going to give you a job if you don't have any experience? The best thing is to get this experience when you're in school. And it will it will add up because, like for me now, after graduating, I didn't do an internship because I had already had two and a half years experience in set design. So by the time now I I had graduated, I have my certificate and I'm looking for a job. And uh my employer at that time said, Okay, fine, yes, I see you're a fresh graduate, but you have experience in set design for two and a half years, we believe you can do the job. And I just started on like that. I didn't have to do any extra internship.

SPEAKER_05 12:30

Yeah, yeah. So you guys just compress. Yeah. This is for people who are doing their degree, assuming it's the four years, or maybe someone who's doing deep. Deep is two years, I'm a three. Three years, three years, yeah. You have time. What happens to people who maybe aren't following that path? What would we advise them? How how let's say, let me give you context. Let's say you've just left high school and maybe you don't have the opportunity to go to uni during that period. What what advice would we give them?

SPEAKER_03 13:00

Would we give them? Okay, first, you need to be sure that you're passionate about design. And if you're passionate about design, there's a lot of things you can do in the meantime before going to the university. Because the truth is, even right uh right now outside here, um, we have people who are practicing and don't even have degrees in design, but they are practicing in different capacities. For example, there are some people who are handling who are who are working in technical capacity where their job is to come and do production drawings for designers. There are other people who are working in uh, say, for example, interior decoration, which you don't even need a degree to be able to do that. Other people are getting into FFND, sourcing and procurement. You don't need a degree to do that. But as long as you're passionate about being a designer, you can always find certifications or find colleges where you can go to maybe study a short course um in a certain area of design, maybe not the wholesome design, but in a certain area of design, therefore you can have some level of expertise because a design studio has a lot of things that they do. There's quite a broad um variety of uh something you can offer in a design studio. For example, if you're very good in interior decoration, you can get your employer to give you that part to handle in the business. You don't have to be to have a degree for you to be able to go and do like project management and everything. You can always just handle that sector which is FFND, sourcing and procurement, preparation of schedules, following up for quotations, putting together cost estimates for the FFND, all which you don't even need a degree to do.

SPEAKER_05 14:30

Yeah. So maybe that's a piece of advice that people can take. But now you also mentioned that you have to be sure you're passionate about it. How how how do they know that they're passionate?

SPEAKER_03 14:42

Um giving a background for myself. Um, when I how I got to know I was passionate about design, when I was younger, I knew I was a creative. I loved um crafts, I loved art. And then of course, you know, through the season of life, and then you go to school, and then you realize in the Kenyan system, back in the day, they were not very, they were not really um aligning more towards like art and creative arts and and and uh sports. But uh so even for me, I studied a lot of STEM subjects, a lot of uh, you know, biology, chemistry, and everything. And then now when I was in high school, one day I was watching one of my favorite shows, which is the Opera Winfrey Show. And in that, she had that was the time when Opera was also had brought design into light where people didn't know much about it, but she had partnered with partnered with a certain designer who would bring ideas to people on how to improve their homes or their offices. So I watched this show where um she was refurbishing her home uh in Florida, and she gave this designer the job to do, and the designer went and performed magic. And I looked at that design and I was like, wow, this is exactly what I want to do. So ideally, I realized that um design was not just the aesthetics part of it, it was the whole process of even thinking about how you're going to transform that space and how you're going to transform the life of the person who is going to use that space. A lot of times I notice that clients all they want to do is oh, I want to have a beautiful bedroom, I want to have a beautiful living room, but they don't look beyond, but they haven't really thought about what about the general comfort of your of your general comfort in that bedroom because you have to rest at night. The general comfort, what about the lighting? What about the materials you're going to use? What about um the color that you're going to use?

SPEAKER_05 16:31

Even the mattress.

SPEAKER_03 16:32

Exactly. What about even the general layout of that home so that it's functional and works for you? People don't really think about that. But when I saw this designer and how he had really transformed this space, I was like, this is exactly what I want. I want to create impact like this. Where I come and I transform your space to give you uh to design for you a space that is not only aesthetic but it's functional and has considered your lifestyle, has considered your work, has considered your hobbies, has considered even how many hours you use that space in a day. You know, um basically that's that's how you got into it. Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 17:08

And now when you were choosing this in uni, how was the how was your the feedback from your folks?

SPEAKER_03 17:17

Wow, that's a story because um so I was in a very good national school and I was a performer. So my parents had thought that, wow, we have a daughter who can become a doctor. I know, or can become everything else. And I knew I was artistic. So at the point, and back in the day was the time when for you to select your career, you did that as in to select the universities you wanted to go to and what you wanted to pursue. You did that in school. So it got to now my phone for and then we did the selection. I did not tell my parents that there was a selection happening, neither did I tell them what I selected. So I just went ahead, I looked at what courses here or what career can get me into any artistic space. So I looked at them. My first choice was actually architecture, and my second choice was design. And then in between that, I looked at, oh, you you know what am I passionate about? I threw in a bit of hospitality. So um, so we we we the exams came, the results were out, I had performed well, and then um, so my parents are very happy, and they're like, Yeah, first we are gonna have a first dentist in this home. And then um, now when the university um let the letters to be accepted into the universities came, and I saw that I actually had been um I had performed well, or rather I had been given an acceptance to the school of design, and I was happy. So, why did I select the architecture in the first place? Because I didn't really know the difference between architecture and interior design and where they meet. But for interior design, I knew there was a lot of nice and glam and color. But I didn't know now architecture, where is the where is the middle ground? So that's why I selected. So I basically missed um, I think it was just about 0.3 points to get into the school of architecture, which I didn't mind. So I got my letter to the school of design. Then I went home and told my parents, Oh, I have an acceptance into the University of Nairobi to study design, and they're like, What? They were shocked. So the first thing they went to check is what did you choose? Yeah, what do you choose? So I explained to them, you know, I wanted a career that's a bit more artistic, something I can I can be able to have a creative side. So they told me that um, well, it's good you've chosen it, but uh now for us we can't hold your hand in terms of helping you look for a job or helping you look for an internship because we actually do not know anybody.

SPEAKER_05 19:34

Well, because you know those days our folks, yeah, always knew employment means oh, I mean, so you whatever you learn means you have to be employed. Exactly. You have to look for a job, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 19:45

And you know, also back then, which also I would believe happens now, when you have a daughter or a son that has studied something, you you want to help them look for work. You know, like when they graduate, you're gonna call your friends, or you're gonna call uh people you know, or you know, and tell them, oh, you know, I have a son, this is what he has studied, or I have a daughter, this is what she studied, you have an opportunity. So now my parents didn't know anybody in this field. So I told them it's fine, I believed in myself, it's fine, I will pursue this and I will go and get into this field.

SPEAKER_04 20:14

Wait, people are helped like that.

SPEAKER_03 20:19

Well, nowadays, let me tell you, people parents are taking this thing seriously, uh, which I also understand because when you when your child is a bit young, you want to guide them on the best place to start. Because you see, like now, if you're not guided, you're gonna do a lot of work and a lot of donkey work in the beginning and a lot of running around. So I feel like parents are at the point where they want to try to set you up to start at a better place, you know. So they're going to lead and guide you to the better companies to work for or to certifications that you can do when you're still pursuing your degree so that you stand a chance of starting well.

SPEAKER_05 20:54

Yeah. So let me just take you back a little bit. I noted here on my notes about like color experts, like all these other specializations. If we were to guide anyone watching, where should they check? Is it a simple general statement of Google? Or is it, you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:14

Um, so for somebody who is a student and knows nothing, because that is where people start. Like you, you just know design. You don't know what else you can do. As an interior designer, you don't know what else you can do. So I think you can research online. There's a lot of online um pages or websites that you can go to that can be able to guide you on what other career paths can you have when you have studied interior design as your basic training. And uh they will they will link you based on like you know, you tell them you know, I'm an interior designer, so they're going to direct you to to to pages that align to something. So they will tell you like maybe you can pursue color. So, in color, what is there in color? It can be manufacturing, it can be uh generation of even like palette. Because there are some people who sit down and design palettes, come up with the color codes, and they even sell these palettes to paint companies. It can even be just color selection. Because I noted, especially maybe not so much here in Kenya, because here as a designer, you do everything. Out there, like in Europe, you can even get a color expert to come and advise you on the colors that you need to apply in your project based on the type of projects. For example, hospitality projects, they do that a lot because of the color psychology of it, you know. Then it can even guide you to something like lighting. We have lighting designers who are designing maybe the light fittings, but they're also coming and designing the lighting of a space and even doing simulations for that. Some of them are designers, some of them are manufacturers of these light fittings. But you see, as a designer, you're the one who already knows the kind of lighting you need in a certain space. So you stand the best chance to be able to design the like to do the lighting design of a project. And they they do that a lot. So online you're going to find that, you'll find maybe um lighting designers, you even uh find acoustic designers, basically, basically, designers that have decided that all they want to do is to design um to look at the acoustic properties of a space, and they're even hired to go to um projects like clubs, you know, projects that need to have a level of noise um uh adjustment, like projects are like like a clubs or even uh studios or even sets, different kinds of sets, and they go and dis and design the acoustic of that of that studio. Yeah, so that's a good place to start.

SPEAKER_05 23:35

So, in general, what we would say, maybe just to summarize that part, is guys, you you don't just need to be a general interior designer or interior decorator. You know, you can very you can niche in very specifically, but you can only do that if you've explored, if you've tested it out, if you've gone and done the extra certifications, because anyway, even if you do this three months one and you don't like it, it doesn't harm you. So you go to the next one. Yeah, you you learn it, it'll still help you, but you'll figure out okay, I don't like this. Yeah, you'll go to the next one.

SPEAKER_03 24:07

Yeah, you know, yes, exactly. And there is no study that goes to waste. Everything that you're going to train in will give you a benchmark to start on another study. For example, if you plan to maybe get into to be, for example, like an expert in lighting, for example, it'll have to take you a lot of certifications along the way where you study something and then you keep advancing your knowledge to a point where you can even be a master in it. So there's no study that actually goes to waste.

SPEAKER_05 24:35

Yeah. So even when you look back then, I'm seeing it in a different light, but maybe let me get it from you. How do you think all this education has shaped your career?

SPEAKER_03 24:48

Well, um, yes, the basic education really shaped my career in terms of it gave me a place to start. It gave me knowledge of what a design industry looks like and somewhere where I would start. But I must say that this basic training, especially in the university, only gives you an idea of what a designer really does. The application for it, especially in the university, is not there. So the application, you find it now when you start working and when you get into now the industry and you're really and you're actually doing the real life stuff. Um, but uh it's it's it's a good training in itself. But then the certifications along the way, they help you improve your knowledge and information in certain areas. For example, because we are not taught project management in school, how will you become an effective project manager? You need to study maybe uh a certain course. You can even do a diploma, it can even be a certification on project management for construction, and that will give you more knowledge to understand how actually a contract goes. Because how do you administer a contract and yet you don't have the basic skill for it?

SPEAKER_05 25:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:56

Even just checking on timelines, you don't even know to do uh a gun chart, you don't know you know, you don't know how to track, exactly, you don't even know how to come up with a program. Like, for example, one of the basic things that a client asks you is to generate a detailed task plan of how you plan to implement this work. So you see, the program, uh the program of works for the construction part is done by the contractor. But what about for the consultancy part? And remember, as an interior designer, you are the one who's going to be the lead consultant in every project, whether it's a new build or whether it's a refurbishment of interior fit out works, you're going to be the lead consultant. So if you if you don't know how to prepare a program of works, how do you, how do you then, how will you run that project?

SPEAKER_05 26:41

Yeah, because people need to understand the difference. When there's now the structural part, the architect will be the lead there. But now on anything interior designs, the architect will also look at you even if they have more experience. And if they'll be like, that's not my scope. Yeah. Interior designer, what do you think? Even when they have an opinion, they'll ask you, yeah, why isn't this working? It's your eyes. Yeah. Where are we at in this? Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_03 27:02

Exactly. Because you see, like now these big projects where um you have like maybe a tower is coming up. You have two design consultants: you have the architect and you have the interior designer. The architect will pretty much manage the build, the architectural build only. So when it comes to the interior fit out, the interior designer becomes the lead consultant at that point. So the architect will only be coming in like a project manager, but the person who is running the project for the interior fit out becomes the interior designer. So you have to know how you're going to manage this project to be able to effectively get an output. Because remember, you're also managing um services scope. You're also managing any other specialist scope that comes in at that point. So yeah, you need to know this.

SPEAKER_05 27:48

You need to be able to know that. Yeah. So at least for her, she feels like for um Jackie, she feels like that basic education just was a stepping stone. Just a stepping stone. And I usually tell people, in my opinion, the degree or rather the undergrad was really not like Yami. I came out like I didn't know nothing, you know. So don't go into it expecting to get out and being a pro. Don't expect that. Yeah. Higher. You did a couple of courses in between. You didn't get to do internship in interior design, but you are working now at the videography and the set design. Yeah. Tell me, you're in school and you're doing this. How was it balancing time? How was it um adjusting to just working in general?

SPEAKER_03 28:41

Wow, first of all, you have to be a very proactive person for you to manage to do this because you're balancing work, you're balancing training, and you're also balancing school. So you have to be a very proactive person, you have to be somebody who works uh with structures. You set yourself, you even set your own structures to be able to know how I am going to handle everything at the same time. Because remember, even the work that you have, sometimes it's not for money, even when you're encamped, it's for that experience. Because when we look at the experience to put on your CV to say that I have two years' experience, you basically, that's the reason why you're working. The reason why you're doing the extra certifications is so that it can give you an edge. So that when you're coming, when you're leaving the university, you are an interior designer, you are in a class of 35 uh people. That class, by the way that was the only, it was just that one university. We have about seven universities right now, before I count the colleges, that every year are churning out design graduates. So, what sets you apart? Because you see, the way the industry works right now is that you must be outstanding for you to be able to get an opportunity anywhere, a basic opportunity. Even for you to get an uh uh, say, for example, an internship somewhere, the employer wants to know you're an interior designer, like another 300 of you. So, what sells what what is different? What sets you apart? But you see, when you have these specifications, you might just be lucky to apply for a job in a firm that needs that certification that you have. For example, if you want to be a sustainability consultant, and maybe you have uh you're an edge expert and you're a fresh graduate from school, you go to a design firm, even an architectural firm will quickly pick you. Why? Because right now you're finding that clients want to get their projects edge certified. So if you're an edge consultant, then you are of value in that company. And that's why I say it is very important to do this certification so they give you that upper edge as a designer, as a fresh graduate, and even fast forward, even in your business, you will realize even right now, you know very well when you go to pursue a job, you're going to look for a job and you've seen maybe a tender that has been floated and then you have been shortlisted. And then you go for interviews, and the first thing they ask you is what sets you apart as Abby in this industry, what sets you apart as Studio Little World. So you must have something that's setting you apart. Otherwise, if you don't have it, nobody will give you an opportunity because people are looking for that unique thing about you.

SPEAKER_05 31:14

Yeah. Yeah, and then it's even worse when you don't even have a portfolio, if alone what's even setting you apart in terms of knowledge.

SPEAKER_03 31:21

Yes, you know, exactly.

SPEAKER_05 31:23

Yeah, because now actually you're right, you're competing even with interior decorators, you're competing with fundies who are taking interior design jobs, plus architects, yeah, because taking the whole scope.

SPEAKER_03 31:33

Yes, because you see, right now, even in the school of architecture, by the time you're graduating your sixth year, you have specialized in something. You cannot be an architect of all trades. You have specialized either in sustainability or interior architecture. So, like in the University of Nairobi, we have a lot of architects that are aligning to interior architecture because the work is there. And now, by the time they are coming out and with all the other training they have, including project management, you find that they are offering a service that is a lot more excellent than interior designers are able to offer because they have gone to school for six years, you've gone to school for for four years, and in these four years, you didn't tell yourself that you need to try and have any extra training beyond that basic training, so you become disadvantaged.

SPEAKER_05 32:19

Yeah, yeah. And then you hear, like, oh, architects are taking our jobs, yeah, unfortunately. Yeah, that's the reality on the ground. Yeah, tell me the way you usually just run your practice currently. Actually, did you? Yes, you did. You did tell us about the farm. How do you balance now the technical aspects and the practical requirements versus creativity?

SPEAKER_03 32:43

Ah, okay. So, first of all, for me, I'm somebody who believes in excellence in terms of everything that you're doing, it must be excellent. And the only way to be able to do this is first you must create structures in which you're going to do this so that you can get the level of excellence that is required. So, for example, at design cafe, one of the things that I have done is to create structures on how things need to be done. I have created expectations of even the output I need. So when I get people who even come to work with me in the business, they already know what is expected. They're not guessing, they already know what is expected. I even have a benchmark of this is what a typical FFND schedule needs to look like. So that when you come, you know all the information that you need to know for you to generate that. So when you set these systems, then it means as because I'm also the creative director in the business, it means that I am able to handle my scope only. I don't have to go and do the surveys, I don't have to go and do the preliminary designs. I have designers to do that. So my job is to come and do the creation, the creative part of it, to just confirm that this design that we are putting out is aligning first of all to the brief that we have and is also aligning to the philosophies of design cafe because uh maybe something I didn't mention is that uh design cafe prides itself, it's prides itself in offering three um three different um consultancies, basically. And that is as interior designers, we offer sustainability consulting, we also offer advisory in biophilia. Biophilia, basically, maybe for the ones who don't know, biophilia is the incorporation of nature-based elements in any design space. And we also offer wellness and well-being um advisory for every space. So for us, we are not only looking at the aesthetics part, we are also looking at the wholesomeness of that place, including of the people who are going to use that space. So, uh, based on this, um, you are asking about how incorporation of the creativity, the practical aspects, and the technical. Yeah, exactly. So basically, what we do is um we work a lot on our creative part element as designers, because as a designer, that's what you are, you're a creative. We work on that, and then now when we bring in now the technical element for it, we we now try to see uh which is the best way of incorpor of maybe um putting this like in production drawings, which is the best way to be able to do these production drawings or the technical aspect, so that then the output we are expecting is the same as what we had designed. So it's a little bit of a complicated, it's a it's a little bit of a complex balance, but then what I have done is I have made sure that all the designers in my firm can do everything. You know how to do everything, all the way from brief to the concepts, uh, to the space planning, to even the technical element, so that when you're designing, you already know everything. But of course, along the way, um, we have had to now get like designers who are just doing design only, and then you get technicians who do the support for this, so that the designer can be able to concentrate on that creative element, the creative part of the design.

SPEAKER_05 35:59

So, as of now, that's how it is, or how you want it to be?

SPEAKER_03 36:02

Uh, how I want it to be, because what has happened is that um now in the farm, because of the amount of work we have, we don't have a chance of having a separate technician. So the designer who takes on the project does it from beginning to end. Yes.

SPEAKER_05 36:15

What do you think is the advantage and disadvantages of that? Um, the separation, I'll give my example. Like for me, I've always worked in places where you do all start to end. Yes. Yes, there's a farm where I worked and it grew to a point where now I was now the operations manager. Now I started separating for people because now you can't take all full projects. But now every has its own merits and demerits. I don't know what your thoughts are. Which do you prefer?

SPEAKER_03 36:44

Which do I prefer? I actually prefer the system where you have the design and the technical work separated. And the reason I prefer this is because for me, I feel like you can get you can easily get people to do technical work. And to me, technical work is not, it doesn't show your design progress. You are just somebody who knows how to put things together for them to be buildable.

SPEAKER_01 37:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:09

And for that, you can even get people who have studied technical, um, sort of like a technical course, even whether it's like in a in a college, even certification, as long as they know how to do the technical drawings, they can come and support.

SPEAKER_05 37:21

Even a deep architecture student.

SPEAKER_03 37:23

Exactly. Even a diploma, yes, exactly. But then now the design part is where you keep you need to keep growing this part. And for me, I feel like as a design studio, we must be designers first. So we must grow this element first. So at the moment, the reason why I have not separated is because the team I have, I am training them to be heads of departments. I am not training them to be employees or to just be designers, Kawaida in the farm. I am training them to be department heads. And for them to be department heads, because they even know the departments they're going to handle, they need to know how to do everything. So that when you become a department head and work comes to your department, then you're able to tell, I have these 10 projects. I have a designer, I have this, I have this. Who do I need? And you're the one who's going to come and say, I think I need to get an extra technician here, I think I need to get a decorator here to come and assist with this. It now becomes up to you to plan the department and the department needs. So that's the only reason why I have to train them in everything. Uh, but ideally, I prefer the separated one just so that the designer is able to keep to have time to keep building their creativity.

SPEAKER_05 38:32

Yeah. Because also what I'm reading from you. So I personally like the separated one. I know I did all. Okay, let me put a caveat. I like the all system when you're very new or fresh in the industry. Because if you go straight into specializing, you may be specializing something you don't enjoy and you really don't know what's out there. Yeah. So I would say maybe first years, the all, because okay, maybe that's my path. But later on, I really think you need to separate because one again, that separation is what's setting you apart. You can be like Yanny, the best cut technician in Nairobi, you know, and that's all you do, or the best renderer in Nairobi. And that's all people know you for. And that really sets you apart. But more to that, I'm just picking from your story, is I like I like what I'm hearing in terms of how you're trying to structure your business into you working on the business, not working in the business. You understand? Yes. Because sometimes you can get so caught up in the rates as a founder and you never get out of it. You're always the one designing, you're always the one, you know, doing the drawings, you're the one going for the site meetings, you're the one going to source, you're the one going to do all these things. So it's something commendable and incredible to also uh inspire the ones who are already in that phase of their lives to see how do I get out of being inside of the business, you know. Yeah. Was that something intentional, or did you get into it by lack or by frustration?

SPEAKER_03 40:10

No, actually, you know, even uh when design cafe started, which was in 2019, we are about six years older, getting on our seventh year. So when Design Cafe started, I was the designer, I was the everything. I was the designer, I'm the one who was handling the business side of it, I'm the one who was handling the technical side of it, I'm the one who was handling the clients from beginning to end, until now uh we got to a point where I felt like we need to grow the company by bringing more people on board. And I also realized that at that time I had spent a lot of time doing the design work because I was good at it. And I knew I easily do it, I was good at it, and I do it very quickly. So I had been doing this for a while, and and and now when I got to the point where I realized that I need to grow, I decided, you know what, I'm going to train people to be just as good as I am so that they can give the product as I expect, and then I can leave them to do it. Then I am now left to work on the business. So the last um two years, I think um I've had people who have come to work with me for the last two years, and in these two years, I have been teaching them everything from beginning to end. So that they're going to pick a department and they they they they move with it. And therefore, I am trying to give them that skill of you're basically like a business owner. The only thing is that you didn't find you you're not the founder of this business. But I also look at it like this. I I for every you know the way designers need to collaborate, right? For you to be able to grow your skill, to to grow your network and everything. For me, I believe in partnerships. And even when I look at design cafe, I look at design cafe as a place where people are going to come in, learn, and become partners in the business. Because what's because it offers everything that a designer needs. It gives you the opportunity for you to be creative, it gives you the opportunity to choose um what you would like to do, it gives you the opportunity of being in leadership, it gives you the opportunity of practice of implementing your creativity. You know, because now you see what I do is I ensure that the designers have given them a level of freedom to be able to implement their designs. So then when they do that and they do it and they keep practicing it, they become good. So for me, I've opened up an opportunity for partnership in the business, and I feel like it is better for the people who are working in the business to work towards this because now they already know the ethic that I require, they already know the structures that I want to work with, and they already know the kind of excellence that I expect in the business. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 42:36

Because that's one thing I wanted to ask you as you are talking about how you're training people and you're spending like two years training people. I wanted to ask you, what are you, you know, what mitigation strategies are you placing so that you're not just a school. Yeah. Yeah. You're just training people and then okay. Okay, I I don't mind. I also don't believe everyone stays somewhere forever. So don't get me wrong. That's not what I'm trying to imply. What I mean is if your intention is they're supposed to take a department, you wouldn't want that you're training. Then as soon as you need them to take the department, they've gone and you need to start training again. But you've now brought in the aspect of you're open into um shaping them into leaders in the company, you're open to having partnerships with them or having them as partners. So you see, they're seeing the end goal, they're saying, okay, this doesn't end here, the ceiling isn't just here. Yeah, we can grow together. Yeah, so as much as you're investing, you're like, okay, it's okay. I'm okay, I'm okay building this business with you.

SPEAKER_03 43:34

Yeah. So, first of all, I also feel like uh design cafe is an incubator, right? Where people will come and learn. There's an opportunity for them to stay or go. I actually don't even mind if they go. Because for me, I also feel like as to contribute to the industry, you need to be able to train people to do better. Because where we are, we are at a point where people are ex like clients are. Really expecting excellence. And you know very well that this is not taught. How to get those designers to be at the level of excellence that this industry needs, that is really not trained in school. So for me, when you come to the business, I basically train you on that. But you see, I also have an open conversation with them. They already know that I I was just I'm just the founder of Design Cafe, and maybe right now I'm the one who is steering this ship. I have an open platform for partnerships, and this is how it looks like. I even tell them this is how it looks like. So basically, they know if they are to stay on in Design Cafe, this is the way a partnership would look like. But they also know that there's an expectation because part of the JD that is going to be in a partner is business development and getting work. So that is usually a bit difficult, especially because you know when you're when you're a new designer, um, you don't have many networks, you don't know many people. In fact, you don't even have a fat portfolio at it. You can go and say, Oh, you know, I handled this, I handled this. Like the way for me, I can go and say, Oh, um, in my years of experience, I, for example, handled uh a project, like a government project. They don't have that. So they already know that they need to learn that so they can have uh because the portfolio is the business portfolio. But what about the CV? It's a personal CV, it's a personal CV. The most you can do there is to say, I worked on this project under employment in this company, but even your CV is not that big. So, anyway, for me, it's an open conversation, and basically, even the way Design Cafe operates, um, the people who have come to work in the business, they actually do love the freedom that is there and the ability to work within in a creative way, where we are bringing in now the professionalism part, but also the creativity part, and they know the expectation as is should you decide that you want to stay behind um and be a partner, uh business development will be part of your JD.

SPEAKER_05 45:54

Yeah, it's not just being a partner because oh, it looks good on paper.

SPEAKER_03 45:58

Oh, exactly, exactly. You know, as a partner, you only earn because you got the job. Otherwise, if you didn't get the work, you cannot earn. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 46:05

So, what I also like about that is just ensuring that every role, one has a JD, two has very clear expectations because even partnerships, collaborations are tricky when you don't have very clear expectations of what you want. That clarity and put you in problems, you make enemies, people who you started as friends, you know, and then it's just because of a misunderstanding, or I expected that now because I'm a partner, I don't need to be working so hard, and you're like, ah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:35

And you expect, oh, work is coming. My job is just to review the work, and then I I I sign off whatever needs to be signed. No, that's that's that's not all a partner does.

SPEAKER_05 46:48

Just the new one. Please tell us what our partner does. In a natural don't need to give too many nitty-gritties, so then they kind of also expect, oh, let me just tell you why I'm asking that. I went to which year was this? I think in 2024, I was called to speak an in a career in one of these international schools in Kenya. I won't mention which one. Usually have like the career days where they bring different professionals, like architects, interior designers, or whatever. So I was brought in. And I remember one of the questions this uh student, one of the students, asked me was how long did it take you, for example, to get to um running your own business? At the time, I think I told her 10, and she was like, Oh, I was like, Why are you so shocked? She's like, No, no, no, no. It it seems like such a long time. I would expect being a CEO or whatever, is I don't know what her expectation was. I can't remember what she mentioned, but she expected it to be very easy because it's interior design.

SPEAKER_03 47:51

Yeah, oh yeah, let me tell you, the one thing that people need to be prepared about is that interior design is not all nice and glum. By the way, what you see interior designers sometimes online showing their nice fashion and wearing heels and going to these nice places to select beautiful carpets, that is a drop in the ocean. Because remember, that is even part of FM. The decorative part of design is in the sourcing, is at the end, and when you're coming now to put you, you've done even maybe color and now you're coming to put the knickknacks. That is at the end, that is like 10%, it's not even 10%, it's like 2% of what you do. The interior design part, the bigger part of interior design is in the space planning. First of all, first of all, the conceptualization, the space planning, and developing that concept to actually become a real life product. It takes time, uh, it takes a lot of work and it takes a lot of experience. Actually, 10 years that that was that 10 years is not even a lot. Because remember, you you can't you have to first of all learn how to be a designer and and practice it. And then second of all, you have to master in something. How long does it take you to master?

SPEAKER_05 48:58

Anything.

SPEAKER_03 48:59

Anything, even 10 years is a short period of time. But I would say give or take, um, that I have um what uh about now this is my 14th year experience post-training, basically post-university. And I cannot even say I am at the level at which I need to be. Because you see, all this time I have been offering consultancy services in project management and interior design. What about sustainability? I became an edge expert about one and a half or two years ago. I still need to keep improving my knowledge in this area for me to really be able to offer this as a consultancy. What about biophilia? What about wellness? Because you see, that's a whole different ballgame. Designers are used to maybe adaptable design, universal design, you know. But what about the other aspects where you're trying to merge nature and interior design? That is biophilia. It takes a lot for you to master that as well. So, yeah, 10 years is a short period of time.

SPEAKER_05 49:55

Yeah, yeah, and even that, like more or less the question was to be a CEO, and I was like, Well, first of all, the name is just the title because you know, because you're still doing so many things, and it's not, I think the perception or understanding was I don't know, you know, the way a CEO of a bank, yeah, the best explanation, but you get what I mean. Like, yeah, just signing checks, like yeah, I think that was the expectation. So I was just trying to like explain, no, this is what happens, this is what you do, you're still designing, you're still on the ground. Even if maybe you've handed it over to other people, you still have to oversee a lot of all the other departments, so it's not just a tea, yeah. Yeah, you just yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_03 50:39

That's a lot, and that's something that designers are never taught. The entrepreneurship part of it. Because when you go to school, you're taught of how to be a designer, but nobody teaches you of how to run your own business. So when now you get your own design firm, is that we're like, why? Wait a minute, there's a lot more I need. In fact, there are some people who even have to go back to school and do an MBA to just learn how to run a firm. Because that is new and strange to designers, you know, because we're used to running projects. Uh running a business is not is not the easiest, uh, especially a creative business, but you you get to learn with time, you know.

SPEAKER_05 51:14

I like the especially a creative business. Because you know, creative businesses, people usually just focus on the creative side. Yes. You know, all oh, my creativity, this looks nice, this will turn out good. It's okay if the I'll just for the payment later. No, when you're now running the farm, these things have to go hand in hand. You understand? Yes, it's not all about oh, it's okay, I'll just do extra and extra. You have to have like a you know, some sort of rhythm, a balance, a system of invoicing, you know.

SPEAKER_02 51:41

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_05 51:43

Yeah, because actually, even just maybe let's pick on invoicing. There's a friend of mine who runs her farm and she's like, Hey, how she's done an automated system um of invoicing. So by a certain time, it just automatically sends itself. By this time, so she's like, It's already, yes, that's already so clever, yeah. So she's like, There's no, you know, sometimes you want to send to a client in the feeling, I shouldn't see to miss I because of APC. No, she's like, No, me, there are no emotions. I don't even check, I don't even, I just even made this if I'm like, oh our invoice list, I'm like what? Yeah, exactly. So they've created like a very clear system. For example, let's say designing this studio takes let's say two weeks, and the payment, you know, that you have payment terms like 10% or maybe 50% in 2020, or something like that. So she it's automatic. The moment we sign like this, yeah, the acquitting when she's supposed to finish and when the invoice is supposed to go, so she knows she cannot delay because yeah, the invoice will automatically send itself, you've got to deliver to the client, so it's like pushes her like the extra effort.

SPEAKER_03 52:48

I was telling her, Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, you you you are that one, but I think a system like that is good because you know designers imagine what we know is creativity. These other things are hard for us, but they they're hard, they're hard running a business, sending invoices, because you see, when you start a business, you're everything you're the IT, you're the HR, you're the one who is the finance person, you're the one who's doing all this, and all these things are hard for a designer. So I think if you're able to get systems like that that can help you, especially automate systems that can help you as a startup designer, imagine it helps you because now you can concentrate on the creative part, which is the design part.

SPEAKER_05 53:26

Not trying to figure out, oh, which stage was it, what percentage we're supposed to have built, yeah, on which date have we finished our work? You just need to know on the 14th, Valentine's Day, this thing needs to be out. Yeah, tell me, yeah. So you leave school, um, you've done these courses, you've worked for like two and a half years, you didn't do an internship at that point, but you got an employment really quick. Yes. Yeah, how long were you there?

SPEAKER_03 53:54

So actually, I got my employment within like a month from graduation. I did intermak. Well, um, I I was there for about because my employment period took about eight years in total. In that same place, not in the same place.

SPEAKER_02 54:08

Okay, okay, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_03 54:09

But uh my employment period, so it took about eight years. So I did four years in one farm, which was a design farm, an interior design farm. Basically, all they they offered was that interior design consultancy and project management. That was my stepping stone, and then now from there I moved to an architectural firm that I worked four years. So all together was about eight years.

SPEAKER_05 54:32

This interior design firm that you're working, how is it now adjusting? Because how was it adjusting to working?

SPEAKER_03 54:39

Well, it was interesting. First of all, you know, even when I got in, when I was employed, I didn't go in as an in an interior design capacity. I went in as a technical capacity.

SPEAKER_05 54:49

Or a draftsman.

SPEAKER_03 54:50

Yes. Because what had happened is that um the company had gotten this new contract for one of these big telecommunication companies in Kenya. They were rolling out, they had just um rebranded and they had rolled out um to do like to renovate all their outlets. And they had very many outlets, but then the company I was working for had been given 50 outlets to work on, cutting across about six to seven countries. So now they had the designers, but they didn't have the technical team to support because it meant that we needed to channel out production drawings for an outlet, like three outlets in a in a day. Because 50 are many.

SPEAKER_05 55:28

So even when I got not even locally, not even locally.

SPEAKER_03 55:31

So even when I went there, me, I am getting drawings for Uganda, getting drawings for Rwanda, I'm getting drawings for Côte d'Ivoire, places I've never been. But all I get is photos of the survey, the person who did the survey, they they have photos, they have a brief, and I have the concept. And now it's it's up to me. And now there's the development that was not like fully done. So you have to do a bit of that development, and then now you do the technical drawings for it. Where it was it was quite an adjustment because you know, now at that time I had never been prepared that as a designer you need to know how to do everything because sometimes when you get work, it's not specifically to be a designer, it can be any other support role under the interior design field. So that is how I started. I actually started on a technical capacity, I did that for about a year before now I transitioned now to get to be a designer. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 56:21

Teamwork and hierarchies. How was that? Or was it you just being assigned in there's no dealing with teams, there's no do I answer to who?

SPEAKER_03 56:31

No, there was. I hey every business has that, eh? Every business that has has that, but I would say I think um in the in the two firms that I worked, uh I worked for, we had a very reduced hierarchy. We didn't have many people uh to answer to. So, like now, when I was working under the technical capacity, I was basically working with the architect. There was an architect who was the chief designer. So I was basically working with the architect. So every all the information I needed with regards to um maybe the brief or something that was not clear in the drawings, I would just deal with the architect. And now once I'm done with my production drawings, once the architect, because the architect now would review to say, I see you have all these GAs, but you're missing this and this detail. And then maybe it's something I hadn't noted, and then now he tells me that you need to also do this and this detail, so I do that detail, or like when now I generate the uh the drawing list, he he tells me, okay, this is what I need. Then I go sit down and and I do, I submit to him, and then he has to review. As long as the architect has reviewed and confirmed they're okay, then now they can be sent to the team leader.

SPEAKER_01 57:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 57:35

So basically that was in the first farm. Um, but now in the second firm that I work for, the architectural firm, you are everything. It is between you and the team leader. And the team leader is a director. So him, he's not coming to site, he's not going to go for the brief. You, you just go give him the update of these clients that came to the company and said they wanted work done. How far are you? Or where are you stuck? You need assistance. So you do everything from beginning to end. So, in the second company, that is where I learned how to do everything because I didn't have anybody to do anything for me. I had to learn how to do the client engagement, I had to learn how to go and get a brief. I had to learn how to come and and and and put that brief into design. I had to learn how to like develop this design, how to do the production drawings, how to even put the consortium together that needs to implement this project, how to run the project from beginning to end, including handing over back to the client. So I had to learn that. So, yeah, so I must say I have not had to deal with a lot of people I have to answer to. But I also say that teamwork is very important. Because you can imagine you're running this project. There's no project you'll run alone as a designer. You need other consultants. And the list of consultants can go all the way from consultants to even specialist consultants in something. For example, now you can have a project where you basically are going to work with the engineers, you're going to work with the quantity surveyors, you're probably going to even work even with structural engineers based on the type of project. But then over and above that, you're going to go and work with specialists. Like, say, for example, a kitchen consultant, like a commercial kitchen consultant. You're going to go and work with a sustainability consultant. There are other consultants that come in as specialists in the project. And all these people are important to deliver this project. And this is just the team of consultants. What about the team of contractors? You have the main contractor and so many subcontractors that you have to deal with, including specialists. So I think collaboration is so important. And as a designer, you must learn the skill. Whether you know it or not, you must learn the skill.

SPEAKER_05 59:41

You were at what point did you learn it, do you think?

SPEAKER_03 59:44

I I think I probably learned this about three years into the into into after after after training, three years into working, because that's when I actually became a project manager. And I realized what before me, I just needed to speak to the contractor and tell and explain details of how I need something done. But then when I became a project manager, I realized, man, you have to learn how to deal with everybody else. Dealing with the client team. And you see, now that is when also I started handling projects from beginning to end, where I realized the client is a team, it's a whole team. It's not one person. I think even in a residential house, it's a team because it's a team of a husband, a wife, and their children. So when when you talk of a client, you're talking about a team. Then when you come to consultants, you're talking about a team. Then when you come to the contractors, you're talking about a team. So at every given point in a project, you might be dealing with 20 people at the same time. And remember, you're the one to maintain this how seamless this project is going to run. So yeah, it was I had to learn a lot. But eventually I think I I managed. And that's one of the things that I even trained my designers. That maybe it's a personality thing or it's just something you have to learn, how you're going to manage teams so that eventually you can be able to have a good product. Because if you're not able to do that, you will always have setbacks. Either you have consultants that deliver, then you have contractors that cannot deliver because they cannot, they are not able either to understand what the designs that have been issued, or they don't know the channels of communication, or they don't even know how to raise what concern with who, or you maybe have clients who come to site and their contractors are so intimidated they don't know what to do. So basically, you put forward even the channel of communication so that it's very easy for everybody in the team to know who do you go to for what?

SPEAKER_05 1:01:38

Yeah. And how do you deal with what and how do you raise concerns and how do you keep track of issues? Whether just as a side chat, how do you usually keep track, just as you, yeah, um of issues? Let me give you an example. So for me, I realized um, especially for projects that run very long, you know, there there's also a lot of change of heart. You can decide, oh, this is how yeah, we're going, and then this is the next. So I realized the simplest one is um a doc. What's it called? The exile that's usually your name is called what? Like a shared, uh, a shared document. A shared one, yeah. Where we keep track on this date, yes. Um, Jackie asked for this, this was the response, it was closed. On this date, eeve, eevee, because sometimes even you're like, okay, but last year we spoke about this one. What did we agree? And then what did we think about? Because not everything is signed off, or yeah, even worse, it's written, it's on email, but now you can't even remember which email was it. Yeah, or exactly how do you usually do yours?

SPEAKER_03 1:02:41

So for me, especially um between the client and us, the consultants, every meeting has to be documented. I have put a structure in place that every meeting has to be documented. That's the minutes, right? That's the minutes or even notes. Assuming I went to a meeting with my designer. So I'm the one who is um handling the meeting, right? And maybe I'm the one to do the minutes. My designer has to take notes of what is expected. So every time there's a client engagement, whether it is a physical meeting or even a phone call, it has to be documented. I have also taught them to uh understand and to distinguish what needs to be documented as official, like official uh communication or what is just a note. Because I have taught them that anything that has uh brings up a change in design or design in cost, which of the two are going to end up affecting the time, it has to be documented in an official capacity because the client needs to know that there is a change in brief. And a change in brief means something according to the contract. There is a change in design. A change in design automatically means there's going to be a change in time, which is going to affect the contract. So basically, I have taught them how to distinguish this, but then every other note has to be documented because I keep teaching them and telling them I don't want to keep calling you to ask you on the progress of the project. I want you went for a meeting, you went to source, you went to meet, whether you went to meet a supplier or you went to meet a client, document it so that me, after my busy week on Sun on Saturday when I'm sitting down to check what has been happening, I will just go to the folder, I look at the project notes, and I'm able to read through and find out what is happening. And if it is not easy for me to do it, it is not going to be easy for the people who come to work under you later. Because remember, a time will come and you're the lead co- you're the lead designer in this project. You're gonna have technicians, right? You're going to have decorators. So, how are you going to ensure that information is also passed across, especially because you're the team lead, passed across to these other people that don't go to site, these people they don't meet the clients, they don't even meet the suppliers. How are they going to be able to work with you and ensure that the communication is so clear and clean for them to be able to deliver?

SPEAKER_05 1:04:58

Yeah. You know, like for that one, like the written ones, what you realize, like first we have the minutes, and then we have normal just email correspondence of yes, no. Then I came to discover for like very long projects, you have all those. But you say, but but then you know we also minute it. Then they ask you which minutes now. Yeah, you get you can't, yes, you know it was minute because you remember very well, but you can't remember this change we agreed on which one. Yeah, and you know, and as a client is saying no, so it means you have to come through individual reading one by I was like mm-mm. There are things where I'll just put here as a note, like for changes, like a release or whatever. I just put on an example. I'm like, yeah, on this date, Nini, who approved it was like simple.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:37

What? Yeah. Well, that is a structure you need to have in place. And yes, again, these are the things I was saying are difficult for designers. You know, when you start, when you start, you think it's just a matter of me and you. See, don't you tell me how you want these niceties and I go and do. Hey, then you didn't realize that along the way, things will change. And you will need to to adjust with the changes. Sometimes you might even forget a change the client made. Then And then now you're coming to realize you forgot at implementation. It was that thing was not designed, it was not costed. Then at implementation, the client is like, but I had requested that I wanted to have like a mafia bed in this room as opposed to have like maybe a normal bed for this reason. And then you forgot. Hey, how now do you start explaining to the client? So yeah, I think those structures are important. I know it feels a bit tedious for a designer to do, but they are so important because of the history. I have projects that's like my oldest project right now started in 2019. It's a boutique hotel. Now imagine from 2019, now we're in 2026. I have designers that are coming in. Now I'm even handing over this project to other designers. Where do they start? Yeah, it's very important.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:45

One of the long ones. The project was long for years. I was like, this one that I'm doing, like for I was like, guy, and you're not even done. We we wee. What do you do? Yeah. So the documentation. So, in essence, I think this episode, so for every episode, I usually have something that comes to mind. Yeah. I think this episode is a reminder for interior designers to just, or creatives, let's say, to just have a little bit of structure. That's what I would say. Just have a little bit of structure. Not a little bit, a lot. A lot. You know, yeah. Just structure your business. It's no longer just fun and games. It's no longer, oh, it's pretty, it's good. There's so many things you can even get sued, you know, just because you forgot something or you didn't cost this. Oh, the client tells you, no, may I told you this, you don't cost for it, you deal with it. Now you're paying it out of pocket. And some of these builds are big.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:33

Yes, yes, they are. And then plus, also you see, we don't work in isolation at the most of the time, like you just have your refurbishment projects. We have new builds where you're even working with it international architects. Like you have architects where the design has been done in because I've I've come across that the design has been done internationally, but they're looking for a local consultant to implement it. These people work within the river guidelines, right? So if you're an interior designer who just trained in Kenya and you don't even know what these guidelines are, and you don't even know which how what these guidelines are, you're going to have a hard time. I I once handled a project, that one was one of the most difficult projects in my previous employment. It was actually a university hospital. And the designers were from the US. And so they had done the whole design all the way up to design. They had not done production drawings. Like basically, from uh production, we were to handle that. And now I have to collaborate with them in terms of like even understanding the design. And first of all, let me tell you, I think in Kenya is where even the training is not well done. There, even the basic training of what the even how the drawings look and the level of information the drawings did you have. Yes, it was very, very high. So I go and get all this a whole drive full of documents that I need to study first before I implement this. And then now remember in the US, they don't even work, they don't even use the metric system, they use another system, they don't even use Graphisoft, they use um AutoCAD. So you have to rebuild the whole university hospital on card. You have to start there. And then now that is before you now even start doing the design work.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:13

Yeah, because when you lift from AutoCAD to AkiCard, it's coming in as line work.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:17

Exactly, it's coming in as line work. So you have a lot of DWGs for you to piece together, and by there, that is the approved design. By the client, the Kenyan client, they have approved that. And you know, a client doesn't understand. Hey, at the Ati AutoCAD, they don't understand. In fact, it's business software. Uh drawings. Yes, yes. I wish there is a way a lot of these softwares, the AutoCAD and the Graphic Soft would somehow look for a way of um integrating to make life easier. Well, that was one of the hardest, hardest. And I realized that um you're not even working within any local guidelines, you're working within international guidelines. So if you cannot plug into these guidelines, then it will be hard for you to even work with such kind of consultants, you know. Yeah, on or on such kind of projects.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:58

Yeah. I'm telling you. The ones who keep telling us, could you chagule rangi? Yeah, tell us in this episode. Have you heard anything about ranki? No.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:09

No, that is that's the thing. But I think also clients don't really understand. I've noted there's a very big uh capacity of clients that don't really understand what an interior designer does. But I will not fault them because a lot of interior designers who go online to market or to show what they're doing, they show the decorative part. So clients tend to feel like, oh, if I need a nice fabric for my scatter cushions, I look for an interior designer. Or if I need to change my seats in my house, I look for an interior designer. They don't really realize that that's the decoration part. In fact, FFND is what 30%, 30% of what a designer does.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:46

So they don't really realize that the 70%, there's something completely different, different, and technical on the 70%.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:55

Exactly, exactly. So yeah, so now when they come to you, is now when because like some of my clients are banks. Um, in fact, my biggest uh clients are banks, and you know, even one day somebody asked me, You're an interior designer, but you're you're you're doing a bank project. What exactly are you doing? Because you know, first of all, a bank looks like it's a very um, it's like an office space, they don't see what's the decorative element in a bank, so they're like, You what are you doing there as an interior design?

SPEAKER_05 1:11:21

When you try to explain to them like the technical, like basically how how much like the space planning, and even banks have their own rules as per how to even space plan you get a lot, let's first of all you get standards.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:37

The first time I designed a bank, I got a standard document of 300 pages that had been generated by a design by an architect in South Africa, and I needed to study just so that I can know how to lay out a branch. A branch, not yes, not the entire HQ building, just a branch, guidelines after guidelines after guidelines. Um, yeah, but so now I had to explain to them what really an interior designer does, and I even told them that the biggest one of the biggest um uh offerings or one of the biggest consultancies that we do is the space planning, and that's where it all starts.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:16

Yeah, tell me, how do you decompress as a designer? Because it's a lot.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:21

Yeah, now for me, I decompress, I don't decompress at work, I decompress when I'm handling my other responsibilities, being a mom, you know, uh, and also being a person of faith. Um, I decompress in those in those areas. But also as a designer, what I try to do even with my team is I try to get opportunities where we can go and probably like visit, visit restaurants, nice restaurants. You just go sit there, you enjoy the design. Somebody else came up with this, and you just enjoy, you have a look, you have a nice cup of something, and you just relax. You know, I am also trying to get more of uh trips, you know. My goal is to get trips for all the designers in my business to be to have to travel to go and experience design. Because I have had that opportunity to do that. I have had um, so one of my clients, my a client I'm handling, uh, they are about they we are putting together a boutique um hotel and they wanted to have a wellness center, and they wanted to have like the world's five-star, world's best wellness center that you can. So let's start from in Kenya, we it's even uh a new concept. A well, like a wellness center, what's the difference between that and and a spy and everything? So we had to travel um for about a month um in different countries just to go looking at wellness centers, just so that we can benchmark and see how are we going to design that one in Kenya so that it can be it can be to a certain you know, five-star, seven stars kind of a standard, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:57

Because you can't design what you don't know. Yeah, and you don't know what you don't know exactly.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:02

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Plus, it opens your mind because it opens your mind to see things like to see concepts that you've never seen in Kenya. Because you see, in Kenya, when you train in Kenya, we are taught the same things. When we design here in Kenya, we design very similar things. In fact, if you look at some of the projects that are most outstanding, they are projects that have been designed by international designers because you know they know different. So when they come here and we're looking, we're like, wow, this restaurant is different. The concept is different. When you go to look at some of these hotels, you're like, Oh, I didn't even know I can have a bathtub inside the hotel room. Like the bathtub doesn't have to be in the bathroom, it can be in the hotel room and it's okay. We didn't know these things, so you have to travel to see this. So, um, so yeah, I believe in that traveling just so that you can go and open your mind and broaden your mind to what you can do.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:51

Yeah, also, just on that, I think I've remembered something. I also want to encourage um India designers who maybe don't have the capacity or ability to travel, Cindy, to also just use what is available locally. You start with what you have, Cindy. Yes, because I remember there's a time we were designing, let's say what what was it? It was um there was a big project we were doing, and we were designing a kids play area. And I remember they late no, that was not the biggest issue, but we did both. So there was a kids play area and there was um yoga room, and I remember I asked, I assigned it to someone on the team at that time, and she was just designing something. Then I I asked her, by the way, you're designing this. Do you know what a yoga room is? She's like, I've seen. I'm like, have you ever seen one? She's like, no, not in person. Okay, have you ever experienced one? And she's like, no. So I didn't fault her at that point. So what I did tell her was I booked for everyone on the team. I was like, hire on let's say Thursday, can't remember what day it was. On Thursday, all of us, Kwanzaa, I went and bought yoga mats for everyone. I was like, the pink one is yours, yours is this color, mine is this one. Yeah. When you finish, just put it back at the office, yeah. So I told them, let's go to such and such and place. Uh in fact, at that time for new people, I think they were giving us us uh how long? I think it was a two-weeks trial for a very whatever low fee. Now, because me had been going there, them they they hadn't, yeah. So I was like, go and experience for this period because we have so much time to design and show me to mezako because no, after that, now the price was like crazy, crazy high. Yeah, and we went and they're like, oh my gosh. So this can't work after that. They're like, oh, you know, I'd put nini nini here, it can't work here.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:42

Oh, you know, I had put do what, but it doesn't make sense like that. Yeah, so it ideas start making sense on how to apply based on you having experienced some of these spaces, yes, you know. Yeah, so I also agree with you travel as much as possible, yeah. And also when you travel, just see, enjoy, take it in, see what other people are doing, ask questions because sometimes you go and ask, hey, and how did you do this? And they tell you something that you would never have done. Some a very simple solution, yes, very simple solution. But if you can't travel, start with what you have, just walk in somewhere, just pay for yoga class. Yeah, you may not be a yoga person, you may not believe in yoga, but you need to design that space, and you can't design it from a point of not knowing. Okay, you need to design a restaurant, go to the restaurant, see okay. This is how they do. You need to design a studio, walk in to a studio like this. See, okay, I need to accommodate lights at the ceiling, I need to have my ambient lighting, I need to have a place for the mics. Others may just have a killer kit, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:45

Yeah, that's true. Yeah, okay. Experience, as they say, experience is the best teacher.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:50

Yeah, yeah, and don't also be afraid to spend on yourself. It doesn't have to be a client who's paid for yourself.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:56

Yes, yes, exactly. Yeah, in my case, it was a client who was paying because they were very keen to what they needed. That was so nice. Oh, yeah, it was very nice because also when I traveled, I realized, well, you know, we we just we design based on what we research on online. But when you go to experience it, you will experience something different. Like I can say, that was the first time I I really experienced a wellness center, retreat, a wellness retreat center designed and built for that function. It was actually in a place in Bali.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:25

And it was not a spa, it was a full spa.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:28

Yes, it was a full wellness center where you know, you know, the way like people book for a holiday to go to maybe whatever hotel in Kenya, and uh you are going to stay there for three or four days. These people are booking a wellness retreat. So even these things like CG a massage or to use the spa is part of the program. There's a whole only it's not the only, it's there's a whole program to eat, and there's a specific certain days that you you can't book a night. There's a specific amount of time that you must book because it is a whole program for that wellness retreat. And I was like, you know, in Kenya we just know we are going to have fun and we are going to rest. But we really and the wellness centers that are there are more like spas where you just go for a day, go get everything done, but not like an entire retreat for a week to go and refresh, you know. So yeah, it is good to travel to see. But then also, if you even if you can't travel out of the country, in Kenya, we have people that are doing very unique things. You know, we have spas that have gone out to design them in a different way. We have restaurants that are coming up with all these new concepts of like farm to table that is different from you know, like like a high-end five-star sort of like a dining. Just get a restaurant, go and have a meal, go and experience of what is this, what what is farm to table, what does that mean? You know, and how is this restaurant designed different from fine dining restaurant? You know, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:58

So travel and exposure is important as an interior designer. Actually, let me say exposure, yeah, in whatever level you want to. You know, there are levels to it, but exposure as an interior designer, very, very important because you also know the the creativity needs to also be seen.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:14

Yes, yes, it does.

SPEAKER_05 1:20:16

Cool. So just to wrap it up, what piece of advice would you give um an aspiring interior designer or even one practicing, really, or one who's running a business?

SPEAKER_03 1:20:28

Yeah, so somebody who's running a business, I'd like to tell them to first of all identify your niche. I know we have had this a lot of times that you know, identify your niche, and there's some people who decide, oh, I'm just gonna do restaurants. That's not a niche. That's not a niche because there are many of you. You need to identify on what you're going to offer in these restaurants that you want to design. What are you really offering the client in this design that is different from somebody else? I'll say, for example, like now for us, our expertise in sustainability, in biophilia, and also in wellness gives us an interesting combination. Because remember, every space that you design, you design for people. You're not you're designing for people to use that space. So our expertise brings an interesting combination, basically, where the client sees value. Because even if a client is coming, for example, to you to design an office project, you already know that in this office there are going to be employees who are going to be here. There's going to be an incorporation of that nature-based element, there's going to be an incorporation of that wellness, so that even the people who are going to use the spaces are able to um have a better stay there or a better use of the office. Because you've heard of the sick building syndrome, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:21:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:42

And people get this for living in spaces that are not sanitary enough or are not hygienic for that. Or maybe you go and work in an office, you spend eight hours in a day, your your seats are not ergonomic, therefore, they they they damage your back, or you're working in an office that doesn't have natural light or natural ventilation, you know, because you work in these companies where they feel like they're going to mechanize everything, and then over a period of time, your health has degrading. So basically, now when clients come to us, they already know that we have already considered the wellness and well-being of the user at that point during design. So, what I would like to tell designers is first of all, uh you need to identify your niche. Identify your niche and identify what it is that you're going to offer clients. Then you need to think ahead. You need to think beyond the space. You need to think about the client, not just about how happy they are going to be, but even how healthy they are going to be in this space. Because remember, like if you're designing a home, a forever home for somebody, they're going to be there for all their life. You need to consider their wellness and well-being in that space. And for people who are starting out, like um interior designers, maybe you're in school, you're training, and you're starting out. I think the first thing you need to do is you need to research on the different fields that are there in the interior design space. And you choose a field and you master. You must be a master of something. Master it through experiencing it, through practicing it, through studying it, through getting certified in that space, and also engaging yourself in conversations around that thing. For example, if you decide to pick sustainability, for example, you need to study about sustainability. You need to know what it is. Involve yourself in spaces, whether it is societies, whether it is associations, whether it is conferences, summits where they're talking about this, for you to get to know more.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:34

You know, and also don't be a bench, a backbencher. You need to be part of the conversation, be the initiator of these conversations, be that advocate, be that conversation starter in that one thing that you've specialized in, so that you can be able to master it and so that you can become a voice in the industry for that one thing. Yeah, that's what I would say.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:55

So any other parting shot?

SPEAKER_03 1:23:59

Uh parting shots. Um, I think um I would say that um the design industry is a very, it's a very good industry. It's very creative, but also um it's a space where you can do a lot more beyond just the creative element. You can bring in um even your interests, your hobbies in it. I see people who even go and advance their knowledge in psychology, for example, just so that you can be able to know how to work around the psychology of the clients that you're going to be designing for. So I think that is my parting shot. And I would say that um you need to be a master of something. Yeah, yeah, you can't just be basic. You need to be a master of something, and you need to be excellent. Excellent. Thank you so much, Jackie.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:47

Yeah, thank you so much for honoring our invite for the good conversation. There's so many. I think this episode people will be stopping right in order. Pose, play, pause, play. Cindy, I hope you really learned something new. Please engage us, tell us what you've learned that's new or different. Go to her pages, we've inserted them down here. Yeah. Like, comment, share, follow, encourage her. Also, also for Studio Little Bold. Please follow us, subscribe, and let us know what other conversations would you like us to have. Which other guests would you like us to invite? Yeah. Until next time, see you and Asante.