SPEAKER_03 0:00

The moment you think like the only person who's working is the only client you have, that's where you go wrong. I mean, my mantles one, every client I serve, they bring me two clients. Yes. When we finished uh high school, the two years we stayed at home before going to campus, I helped my dad to run my sh our shop. Okay. So um I think I gained some skills that I didn't know I have.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

What kind of shop was it by there?

SPEAKER_03 0:28

Just a local shop like a normal duca. Yeah, normal duka. No clients come in, bagay, no the skills of uh soft skills of talking to clients.

SPEAKER_00 0:37

Um wait, people bagay in dukas.

SPEAKER_03 0:39

Yes, little this is too much. Can you give me for this much? Yeah, can you give me today a pay tomorrow? Oh, yes, there's that so there's that interaction of with people, so you get to understand people differently. So it's a skill I had, but I didn't know I didn't know I have. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 0:56

Welcome to the Studio Little Bold podcast, where vision meets execution, creativity finds clarity, and mentorship unlocks potential. I'm your host, Abigail Osidiana, and this is the space for designers, dreamers, and change makers looking to build bold ideas and shape the future of interior design. Hi guys, welcome back to our channel. Today I have Marcus on set. We're meeting for the first time. So Karibu Karibu Sana, and thank you for honoring our invite.

SPEAKER_03 1:24

Yeah, thank you very much also for having me.

SPEAKER_02 1:29

Yeah, please introduce yourself, tell us all everything you want us to know.

SPEAKER_03 1:34

Let me try. That's our name is Marcus Ongay, I'm an interior designer. Um, I'm also a development marketing officer at Furniture Palace. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:50

Oh, yeah. Okay. Tell us, did you go to uni for that?

SPEAKER_03 1:56

Sure, yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:57

You did you you were you are schooled?

SPEAKER_03 1:58

Yes, I'm schooled. Because yeah, um I studied at the University of Nairobi. Um many years back. Yeah. So I did uh interior design. I majored into um interiors. Yes. So basically we do anything in terms of spaces, arranging spaces, you know. Yes. That's my thing.

SPEAKER_02 2:23

Okay, that's your thing. So it took you four years?

SPEAKER_03 2:25

Yeah, it took me four years. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:27

How did you choose interior design?

SPEAKER_03 2:29

Uh in back in high school I did uh uh technical drawing. Yes, so that's how I developed uh the interest in uh architecture, doing drawings, fitting furniture, doing joinery, how to assemble furniture and those kind of stuff. That's how why I got myself into uh interior design. Uh I was actually almost went to Marceno University, but uh somehow I made it to the University of Nairobi.

SPEAKER_02 3:00

Oh, you had been called to Marceno?

SPEAKER_03 3:02

No, at that particular time only Marceno and uh University of Nairobi were offering interior design degree. Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:09

So how did they almost come?

SPEAKER_03 3:11

Uh my dad all wanted me to go there to select uh Marceno, but I changed to University of Nairobi.

SPEAKER_02 3:16

You changed after during the application? During the application. Oh, so then they thought you've done Marceno, you've applied for Marceno. Yeah. You've applied to Nairobi.

SPEAKER_03 3:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:24

Why didn't you want to go to Marceno?

SPEAKER_03 3:26

Uh Marceno, I it was difficult. It was like, eh, I can't study in Shags, then again go college, you're going to Shags. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:37

Oh, you your your high school was in Shags? Yes. Okay, okay, okay, got it. So you wanted something new.

SPEAKER_03 3:42

Something new. Then my my at that time my C's was at the University of Nairobi. So when I came to visit one day, I was like, I must also come to the University of Nairobi.

SPEAKER_02 3:53

So the guys in Nairobi are running away from Nairobi, the ones in Shags are moving away.

SPEAKER_03 3:57

Yeah, coincidentally, we've come to Nairobi, them. They've gone back to Shags.

SPEAKER_02 4:02

I can imagine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the technical drawing, um, when you're making these apply uh applications, your folks are okay with it. Yes, they're okay with it, they understand what it is.

SPEAKER_03 4:14

Yes, because my my dad was like, no, this interior design, you can open your own farm and do your own thing.

SPEAKER_02 4:20

Oh, he was knowledgeable at the time.

SPEAKER_03 4:22

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:29

Yes. Oh wow.

SPEAKER_03 4:31

Yeah, so that's how I got into interior design.

SPEAKER_02 4:33

Ah, yeah. So you've gone into uh Nairobi uni. Do you work or do you do attachments during your four years?

SPEAKER_03 4:42

Uh interestingly, I didn't do any attachments because at that time I think design was something new. So it was not very robust as it is right now. So actually I was doing more graphics work, graphics design work than interior design work. Yeah. Remember my my uncle was um running a tours farm. So he used to give me us gigs to do design work for him and the the banners, the stickers for the cars going for tours, and he could pair. So it was nice. So that was easy for us than interior design was a bit uh technical.

SPEAKER_02 5:21

This, what you're doing for your uncle, is that what year?

SPEAKER_03 5:25

Yeah, three.

SPEAKER_02 5:26

How long do you do it for?

SPEAKER_03 5:27

Uh like it was only off for like a year or something. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:32

What do you what was your biggest lesson learning that experience? Because now you're working and you're in school.

SPEAKER_03 5:37

As much as yes, uh it's not at a formal employment. Our motivation that time was getting money for the weekend and stuff, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:44

Yeah, so it's not at learning what I'm learning.

SPEAKER_03 5:47

So it was interesting. You getting money at that time was not easy. Yeah, probably most of you guys who could do a few jobs here and you know to get some funds to sustain ourselves, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:00

Oh, yeah. Do you mind me asking at that point? Are you being supported by your folks summer? You're you're on your own.

SPEAKER_03 6:06

No, of course they are supporting us.

SPEAKER_02 6:07

They're supporting, you know, because those who do have parents, but when I kwame eh, where were jipange sasa?

SPEAKER_03 6:12

No, they were very supportive. They were supporting. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 6:15

Ah, okay. Then you leave Campo. Cindy.

SPEAKER_03 6:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 6:18

What's your first step? Do you go for an internship? Do you get employed right away?

SPEAKER_03 6:23

Actually, when I was in Campo the last year, uh, one of my lecturers, um, I think right now she's the dean of uh School of Design, uh Madam Lilac. Uh, she got a job. She was doing a furnished, she was she was furnishing a house for a client. So during my final year, she was like, uh, Marcus, can you rush there? Here's the key. Go and save the furniture. Oh you know, so you could go there, sit, wait for the delivery guys to come. Then at some point, she requested me to go and look, sauce around for a dining table for the for the for this for the space. That's when I used I went to some shop on Luke Um Kijabe Street. Uh checked around, then I got a contact there. Yes. Yeah, that's how I got into now uh doing furniture. So after Campo, uh I reached out to the lady who where I went to buy uh uh the dining table. And she was like, uh, when you're done, I know there's somebody who's looking for an interior designer. So I'm like, okay, hook me up. That's after Campo, I was uh I got a job like almost even before I graduated. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 7:32

How long do you stay there?

SPEAKER_03 7:34

I stayed there for six six months.

SPEAKER_01 7:38

Six months in so short, what happened?

SPEAKER_03 7:41

Well, what happened is I it was a furniture company. So um we used to go with salespeople out, you take measurements for spaces, you fit in furniture, you recommend furniture. So um her sister was working in uh another furniture company that is furniture palace. And she was like, uh, we are looking for a designer. So my name came up. Yeah, so I went for an interview on Saturday, then the following week I reported for work.

SPEAKER_02 8:09

Yes. Okay, so that part I'm going to blight out a little just because it you may say something else additional for about that experience, and that may be nini. In case it doesn't have an issue, I leave it just to keep you safe. So yeah, so you stayed there all through. Yes, wow. Wait, how many years is that now?

SPEAKER_03 8:30

One place since 2011.

SPEAKER_02 8:33

Oh wow, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They must be good employers.

SPEAKER_03 8:42

Yeah, that's right. Uh basically, we used to when you go there, you are and you're supporting basically you are supporting sell staff to close because they don't have uh the technical the technical bit of it in terms of advising clients what to get.

SPEAKER_02 9:03

Yes, wow, that's a long time in one place. Me, okay. Me on average, my tenures in employment have been around like four, four, four years, four years, like in so you do four and then we to come back here.

SPEAKER_03 9:17

Yeah, so basically we uh uh when you're when you're there, is I got interest in sales. So you double up as uh in trade designer and sales because now we're getting commission. When you do this other job alone, there's no commission. So you're advising people, they close, they get money.

SPEAKER_02 9:36

Yeah, you are you're there. Oh, okay. Actually, let me just clarify what I said. Not on average, the longest place I've ever worked, one place was four and a half years. Four and a half years. The others were varying in uh two months, like two, no, no, no, no. Like two, my shortest period has been two and a half or years. Okay, yeah, oh, that's nice. Then the longest is four and a half in one place. So two and a half, four, two evil.

SPEAKER_03 10:04

But I mean it's interesting, you know, because you meet different people every day, and then uh of course I'm in touch with the market players. Yes, so you the dynamics are totally different because me, I like talking, uh interacting with clients, uh, giving them ideas. No, as a designer, your background is in solving problems. So when you come with a problem, for me it's a plus because I need to have a solution for it. Yes. Also, you actually enjoy that the day-to-day interactions, exactly, yes, with different people from all walks of the world.

SPEAKER_02 10:37

Also, it was just like a ka plus ka bonus kind of situation where you didn't get to work like in the background of something.

SPEAKER_04 10:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 10:46

So this one then was just by luck. Have you ever or had you ever considered like, okay, maybe let me go into something else other than furniture?

SPEAKER_03 10:53

Uh yes, uh I do interiors. Yes. Uh at some point I used to do renders and stuff, but again, it's too too much work.

SPEAKER_02 11:03

I don't like the honesty, it's too much work. Yeah, renders uh a lot of work nowadays, at least AI.

SPEAKER_03 11:10

Yeah, even if AI is there, see what happens is um as you grow, uh being an once you've learned the ropes, you don't have to do it. Yeah, there's so many people who can do it. And you pay them, you get your money, and you know as long as they stick to the brief, and you for me getting business is easy because I I can talk to the client, I can pitch, I can sell myself, basically. Yeah, so once I sell myself, uh however the work will be done, it's not up to you. Yeah, if you want to render, I'll give you the render the the one you want, as long as you you pay yes.

SPEAKER_02 11:46

How was it adjusting from school? First of all, even before I go into that, what was your expectation in terms of okay, I'm leaving school now, this is what I'm expecting as I get into the job market.

SPEAKER_03 11:57

Where I used to apply lots of jobs in terms of uh in architectural farms and trial farms. I my expectation was I would go out there, uh, do renders, go to sites, you know, visualize and actualize, you know, whatever the client wants. Yes. But uh coming out, it was not easy. Yeah, even uh when I came out the time, uh I went for an interview at National Media for graphics work. Actually, we went there twice because my friend was there, so but it didn't work out, so I said let me just stick to you know what I can.

SPEAKER_02 12:37

Oh yeah. And how was it adjusting now to work as an interior designer, stroke sales? Like, how was it adjusting? Is it something that was shocking and you had to learn along the way? Is it something you're like, ah yeah, I'm actually liking these?

SPEAKER_03 12:52

Um for the sales part. Uh when uh when we finished uh high school, the two years we stayed at home before going to campus, I helped my dad to run my our shop. Okay, so um I think I gained some skills that I didn't know I have.

SPEAKER_01 13:12

What kind of shop was it by then?

SPEAKER_03 13:13

Just a local shop like a normal duca. Yeah, normal duka. No clients come in, you bugging, no the skills of uh soft skills of talking to clients.

SPEAKER_00 13:22

Uh wait, people bugging in dukers.

SPEAKER_03 13:25

Yes, little there's too much. Can you give me for this much? Yeah, can you give me today pay tomorrow? Oh, yes, there's that. So there's that interaction of with people, so you get to understand people differently. So it's a skill I had, but I didn't know I didn't know I have. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 13:42

How long were you helping your dad run that?

SPEAKER_03 13:44

For two years.

SPEAKER_02 13:45

Wow. Yeah. The whole entire period.

SPEAKER_03 13:48

The whole entire period until you went to campus.

SPEAKER_02 13:50

Yes. So what was your typical day like?

SPEAKER_03 13:54

Uh, you wake up well, in that at five at five by six, you at the shop, you open.

SPEAKER_02 13:59

Was it for?

SPEAKER_03 14:00

No. So far. You open around 6:30, you sell, up to 7:30, you close. You do your mathematics, what you've sold, what you need. You do receiving. Uh every week you check what you've sold. Uh, most you I tell my dad to replenish. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 14:21

At that point, mark us at that level, not mark us today. Uh-huh. What is your head? What's your what are you feeling in your heart as you're doing this? Are you feeling like, oh my gosh, I'm learning this and I'm learning that? Or are you feeling takwa free? What's your head space after that point?

SPEAKER_03 14:36

Uh, at that point, I was just I'm just helping him.

SPEAKER_02 14:38

So there's no at you, oh my gosh, why are you making me work?

SPEAKER_03 14:41

No, because now what else will I have done that time? Yeah. It's like you're styling time. Yeah, you've finished, you wait two years, you'll go to campus. So I'm waiting as I'm working, I'm waiting to go to campus. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 14:53

So you got a completely different kind of experience, hands-on kwa ground.

SPEAKER_03 14:58

Yes, on the ground, yes.

SPEAKER_02 15:00

Who, who, who I saw a certain video. Uh-huh. This man said was asked what is his best millionaire, not Kenya shilling millionaire, dollar millionaire, multi-millionaire rather. Yeah. And he was asked, um, what's your secret to making money? And he said, You can have all the degrees you have, but the people in the streets will run circles around you and eat your lunch as you're here as a GO still planning.

SPEAKER_03 15:27

Then they're just on the ground. On the ground, no working, no, doing whatever they can do to get survived, actually. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:34

What was your biggest? So, me, I'm really interested in that part. Which part? On the looker part. Yes. Because I usually um even tell my viewers, for every stage or situation people are in, there's always something you take away for every phase of your life, for every job you've done, for everywhere you've lived, from everywhere you've traveled, there's something that you've taken away, whether it's good, whether it's bad, whether it's realizing also your weaknesses, whether it's, you know, you learn something. This particular place, as you're doing the duca job, what do you think you're learning about yourself?

SPEAKER_03 16:06

Being being a better organizer, organizing yourself better. Because in terms you'll forget that uh one item has run out of stock and other items are still there, and you need to replenish it. So you need to know how to do your stocks and uh plan that uh by next week I know this will be out. So you need to do pre-orders and say by Friday I need to have this. So you need to have those items and prepare yourself better. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 16:37

Who's who's doing the pre-ordering? Are you doing it then? He oh, you're doing it yourself. So you're doing you're running end-to-end.

SPEAKER_03 16:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 16:45

So even calling the suppliers and whatever. So you want to deliver, but they usually do that.

SPEAKER_03 16:49

No, no, no, what you what used to happen is I could give my dad the list and tell him my sugar, I need 100 cages, nails, this much, tea leaves, tea leaves, the the sachets, this much, the uh 50 grams, this much, 100 grams, this much, on 20 grams. I have this so this much. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 17:07

So basically, you can do like shopping, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:15

Like go and based on lasts for this much.

SPEAKER_02 17:18

Really? Yeah. Did you have someone to assist you?

SPEAKER_03 17:21

No, I was alone.

SPEAKER_02 17:22

Oh, I couldn't if I'm feeling sick, someone is coming to step him.

SPEAKER_03 17:27

No, my dad could uh once in a while. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 17:31

But who's trained who at that point who trained you? Him. Yes, or you had already been there just watching in the background.

SPEAKER_03 17:37

No, I think uh just seeing him run it because he had run it for some time. So since when I think when I was in form two, form one, there. So by the time I'm finishing, of course, when you're when you've closed school, you'll be there once in a while. Yes. Then when you close school, then that's when I went in full in because at that time also he was selling some maize. So actually, it's Freddy's time. Now he could do other things, other businesses, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:06

Oh wow. So basically you're just his apprentice.

SPEAKER_03 18:09

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 18:10

Wow. Let me ask, seeing that experience and seeing how you run the things, were you also doing like the accounting per se? Am I just recording what is in, what is out?

SPEAKER_03 18:20

Uh accounting part, uh, money-wise, I could do the um it was on a daily basis. I know how much money you've gotten today, and then I give him. Then we could see how much you've sold for the whole week. Then he'll tell me you've sold this much, so we can get stuff for this much. Yes. It was Kenya, it was not like uh proper accounting. That's what I still mean. Because every every day you could write this day you've sold this much. This day you've sold this much. Then the total.

SPEAKER_02 18:49

What happens to people who are um here negotiating next week? How are you following up on them?

SPEAKER_03 18:56

Uh, you could call them, of course.

SPEAKER_02 18:58

I had a book with numbers, yes, numbers.

SPEAKER_03 19:01

Yeah, this day you took uh goods worth uh 10,000, 8,000, 3,000, then you do follow-up. They tell you we'll pay you next week Friday, so you on Friday you call.

SPEAKER_02 19:11

So I'm asking this because I'm usually very curious. This thing of, I usually actually tell my husband when we're in shags, like, I don't know how these guys operate because the number of people who borrow or taking things on an Italipa Badae is so high, you get like at the duka where even as we the local ka duka where we just also, if you need to buy anything extra. So usually ask, hey, how do you follow up? And you know the community actually is small, you know. So okay, of course you know everyone, but now this that attachment, you know, where's the press Juna? How are you following?

SPEAKER_03 19:45

So the thing is, you I I don't know how, but I was not giving everyone.

SPEAKER_02 19:50

Oh, you had instinct.

SPEAKER_03 19:52

Yes, it was specific people. Yes, you couldn't give everyone.

SPEAKER_02 19:58

Was this a rule that you made for yourself or something that they told you?

SPEAKER_03 20:01

I think I that one I made for myself. I could give I could actually give people who I knew a salary.

SPEAKER_02 20:07

Oh, okay, okay, okay. Yes, so you didn't have the hassle of debt collection.

SPEAKER_03 20:14

Of course, we made one or two that you have to chase around, but yeah, most of them paid.

SPEAKER_02 20:19

How did chasing around look like at that point?

SPEAKER_03 20:21

Of course, they'll uh it's are you physically going to them, or you're waiting for them to come? You can't you have to wait for them to come because how do you whom do you leave at the shop? So you see somebody who took uh uh some stuff, he'll pass, then it disappears for some time, then of course they'll come back.

SPEAKER_02 20:38

So basically, you're living on a hope, a dream, a prayer that they will come and do the right thing. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 20:45

Wow, yes, it's a bit trust, but again, it's how you relate with people. Yes, if you relate with them on a on on a human uh platform, of course, again, they also have to reciprocate. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 21:03

These people who look at people like always hoping for the best in people or imagining the best in people. Me nawanga skeptic. Like I start with the worst and then I will build the trust. We build we'll build.

SPEAKER_03 21:15

No, but of course, uh again, before you give them, you don't give them outright. These people who've been buying, so maybe somebody they're good buyers, some are good players. They come today after a month. No, they say, I today I am a B C D, I'm less a B C D. Can you just sort me this? Then I sort you this particular time. So that's when you those are the people you give, not uh a stranger someone who just come and bought once or twice and then this disappear. Then they come out of nowhere and they want you to give them the stuff on credit.

SPEAKER_02 21:44

So, in essence, then just having that book was helpful.

SPEAKER_03 21:47

Yeah, so the book was very helpful for you to track, also. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 21:51

Do you what do you think was the most challenging part of this job? I know I'm throwing you off because I'm a design, I mean I can give you.

SPEAKER_03 22:00

I know stalks was a bit hassle. And uh knowing what's moving and what's not moving, so that when you're placing orders, you only place uh orders for what is moving. So knowing first you're knowing your first moving items and then your slow moving items. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 22:19

So don't you think, in retrospect, this was training you to work where you are now?

SPEAKER_03 22:25

I just came to think of it uh like a couple of months ago.

SPEAKER_02 22:29

It was just training images, exactly, because you're in the exact same setup on a large scale scale and selling just different products, different products. Wow, yeah. What do you think you apply the most from that experience connecting it to this? Uh applying like hey, this is what I learned on the ground people's skills, okay, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_03 22:51

Yeah, people's skills, yes, because uh when you're selling to people, you really need to factor in them. Um you look at stuff from their perspective.

SPEAKER_04 23:03

Yes, like what now?

SPEAKER_03 23:06

If you need something, let's say I want a sofa, you want a sofa. Um I have to look at it from my perspective. I have to understand you. I have to be the one who's buying the sofa. What am I solving? Yes. When you come and tell me you wanted a sofa, what kind of a sofa? How big is your space? What is the what what colours do you want? What what do you have currently? Why do you want to change it?

SPEAKER_02 23:30

Also, you also actually ask all those.

SPEAKER_03 23:32

Yes, do you have children? You know, those kind of stuff, so that you you just get to understand this person and do think from their perspective what will best suit them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:42

So it's not a matter of just walking in and being like, hey, na kayakwa.

SPEAKER_03 23:46

No. I'll actually move you from this to this. Exactly, yes.

SPEAKER_02 23:51

Do you so um do you think or how do I say it? Are you so in this particular place, are you trained even more, or now you're just cutting the skills from school and cutting the skills from now this kufa nyakwa druka?

SPEAKER_03 24:06

So it's just life to f for the for the f uh when I came from campus, I was actually using the skills from campus. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 24:14

Did you find it different? Did you find what was so different in terms of okay, you get what you were learning and then what you what I was learning?

SPEAKER_03 24:23

We didn't have uh that um interaction with clients. When you're learning, you're just studying. It's like you you are working from back office. Brief, come up with your uh with the design, then you sell. But uh what I came to notice is design uh basically is marketing. Yes, because it's visually you you want to sell your idea. So you have you know how you need to know how to market yourself, you need to know how to talk, you need to know the correct words to use to sell yourself. Yes. So coming out of campus, it was a bit difficult because you've not interacted with clients uh one-on-one. Yeah, it was a lecturer or maybe your colleague you are fellow student. So whatever you're interacting with, it's totally different from what is whatever is in the market. So when you come in the market, uh you're trying to sell yourself, it's become difficult because you're not even confident. Yeah, you don't know you at the back of your mind, you're saying your your product is good, yes, but you don't know how it will be reperceived from the other side.

SPEAKER_02 25:29

How soon do you, if you can remember, how soon did they start allowing you to speak to clients after you, Metoka Should?

SPEAKER_03 25:36

I think I was very aggressive.

SPEAKER_02 25:38

Oh, you so it was not a them issue of pushing your agenda, it's you who pushed. Yes. People tell me about that.

SPEAKER_03 25:44

Um so when you come in, um you you go with the salespa uh salespeople. Salespeople, we those guys were going fulfilled, they're very established guys, so they talk so big. So when you're working, you your your work was just take dimensions. Yes, them they'll sell. So you take dimensions, you you go tell them now this is what will fit, this is what will fit, this is what will fit. Then them they talk to the client. Tell the client this is what will fit. Yeah. So me I was like, um I can also do sales. Why can I not do sales? Because if I'm making money for somebody, you have closing deals for millions, no, and you you get nothing.

SPEAKER_02 26:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:30

So I told my boss, yeah, I want to do sales also.

SPEAKER_02 26:33

How was that perceived?

SPEAKER_03 26:35

So it's fine because I was I was aggressive. Yeah, and then me when I want something, I'll go for it.

SPEAKER_02 26:40

Yeah. So it was more like also an open culture where it's not like no, you sit in your position. What are you?

SPEAKER_03 26:47

No, I uh yeah, the way I was looking at it is um I'm the one who's done the work. I understand, I understand space better. So why would I make money for somebody who doesn't understand space?

SPEAKER_02 27:04

I hear you. So we're up on the maths. I know.

SPEAKER_03 27:07

Maths do you make maths or not math, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:10

Yes. And how is it like how was it adapting now from school to like hierarchies, even from the first place, just in general, not particularly here, because I don't want it to be very specific, but just generally, how is it adapting to like hierarchies and colleagues and systems?

SPEAKER_03 27:27

Uh systems, of course, you you you can see how to navigate them, of course, uh starting at uh level of inter design, interior design, and then you go inter designer and come sales, then um head of a department. So it was more of about what effort are you putting in? It's more of results-oriented.

SPEAKER_02 27:52

It's nothing about it's not political, it's not.

SPEAKER_03 27:54

It's not political, it's not political. It's what are you bringing to the table? What other skills do you have? What other um tasks are you willing to take up? Yes.

SPEAKER_02 28:05

So you didn't wait to be asked?

SPEAKER_03 28:07

No.

SPEAKER_02 28:08

Is it because you also see now you've joined in the new company and you're seeing this A or B or Abigail is doing a particular thing and this is how they are growing in like a Pana Ama, where will you join to from the get-go?

SPEAKER_03 28:19

No, I joined from the get-go, but you see, we had some senior guys, but uh the thing is if you, for example, you get to uh a space, you had three colleagues, and um people like being traditional and uh following uh processes. Procedures procedures. Uh at some point me, I don't follow procedures. Why uh if the procedure is low, why why should I use it?

SPEAKER_02 28:51

Oh, but wouldn't that like put you in problems or in trouble?

SPEAKER_03 28:54

What if the outcome is better?

SPEAKER_02 28:56

Really? You don't have a place where what if my outcome is better? Now, you see, there are two kinds of people. Now, those who would be like, you know, me to Jali, you mean this is the outcome I want. However, you get to it, it is your problem. And then those who are like, but I've created systems, I've created procedures. What are you telling me you're not following them?

SPEAKER_03 29:14

Systems and procedures can be improved. So are you asking for the improvement of the I'll do it in the independent you can if you do like this, you improve the system, and you never got in problems. Of course, you get in hot soap sometimes. Yeah, hot soap, and you're of course you saw. Uh let me tell you, when I got to the place I uh the second place I went to, we used to like doing quotations. So you work with a client, then after you worked with the client, you give the list to somebody else to do the quotation, then the person will send the email to the client. So you're left in the dark, and that's how they were operating, and they were okay with it. But I mean I told them no. If I'm going to do if I'm going to work, I'm the one who talked to the client. So how does the person now be the one to connect to the client? Because they never used to send emails out to the client direct. So I told them for us to get this thing easy and you know improve our services. If I've worked with the client, I know what the client wants, I can do the quotation. Let me send the quotation out direct to my client because I'm the one who's dealt with the client. The client would also feel nice because you've worked with Marcus, but you're getting a quotation from Kennedy. There's a disconnect, there's no connection. So that's how we I we are I was given permission to be sending out quotations and it it improved immensely. Because now, yeah, because the system now you've removed the bureaucratic part of it. Yeah, because there was no trust. Basically. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 30:57

But you're here proving that you know what to me, there's no harm. There's no harm, there's nothing bad I'm doing. I'm just doing the work.

SPEAKER_03 31:02

Exactly. And the work I'm making it more efficient and fast. Because if we are like five people and we've worked five clients and then we take our quotations to one person to send out, how long will that take? Yeah. If it's for me, it's almost immediately. Immediately.

SPEAKER_02 31:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 31:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:25

Okay. Tell me, throughout this period, what have you been doing in terms of networking, meeting new people, just for someone who's aspiring or learning or still early in their career to know what to expect or how to position themselves, you know. Me, me personally, me have been a struggler in terms of networking and stuff.

SPEAKER_03 31:47

Mine is same. Though it's work home, but uh, I think the uh the advantage I have is I used to I go to interact with different people, like engineers or day designers, architects. So you keep them in touch. Actually, those are the people who supported me. I'm a very uh all my businesses have come from referrals. Yes, yes. So when I have an inter designer, of course, I get in touch with them. We chat, I will go to site, just see how spaces yeah, yeah. So that's how I've done my networking. My networking was more based on uh how I whoever is already here, whoever we are working with, yeah, not at anything extra. Yeah, so extra it was a bit difficult because again the timelines work it's from eight to five, Monday to Saturday.

SPEAKER_02 32:39

Ah and then also like through this period, how do you think? Do you think you're growing?

SPEAKER_03 32:47

Yes, I grew, I grew, then got stagnated a bit. Yes, but now I feel like I'm growing right now because now I've um I've grown through the ranks from a salesperson now to a head of department. Uh right now I'm a business development officer.

SPEAKER_02 33:06

Yes, so why I'm asking that is I I would want us to see what what's the best advice to tell people early in their career or aspiring inter designers on now ensuring that you're you're growing. How should they what should they do to ensure that they are growing?

SPEAKER_03 33:23

Expand your network.

SPEAKER_02 33:25

The one that you're refusing to do other than our I didn't I didn't know. Oh, you didn't know you get the beneficiaries.

SPEAKER_03 33:35

Yes, I didn't know. But the the greatest thing you can have right now is expand the networks, have a lot of people around you, interact with a lot of people because different people bring um different challenges and different you know things that you can learn from. Yes. Uh don't limit yourself to just designers. Yes. Don't limit them. Everyone. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 34:01

So explain to a layman where are they meeting these people? This networking that you're saying, where are they meeting?

SPEAKER_03 34:07

As as as as a designer, I I came to find out that uh our work is just to market ourselves. Uh go to open spaces actually. Meet new people, don't just stay in one place.

SPEAKER_02 34:20

What made you discover like right now?

SPEAKER_03 34:23

Um I do visit a lot of sites. Yes. Uh know who is who is working on this, give a call, say I've gone to your site, I've seen ABCD. Uh can we meet? You know, just you it it will help you learn and connect more. Yes. Yeah. But if you just stay in one place, it will be difficult. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 34:48

I've just thought about something. For anyone who doesn't know what a business development manager does or officer does, please explain to them me naile. Yeah. But I want to show them, I want to show them that for interior designers, there's so many parts you can go. Yes. And it doesn't necessarily mean in simple terms, business development. Unatafu takazi. Exactly. Full stop. Exactly. Is that the way you would describe it?

SPEAKER_03 35:12

Exactly. Me at after job. Yeah, so I look for people who buy who wants to buy fins. So contractors, inter designers, architects, procurement officers. Yes. So you go out, we meet, uh we propose and tell them what you do. So we basically sell yourself out. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 35:33

How often do you do that give give or take?

SPEAKER_03 35:36

Every day.

SPEAKER_02 35:38

So you can't get business from your house unless you're on social media, you know. Yes. And that's also just a different media. Google, you know.

SPEAKER_03 35:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:46

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 35:47

Yeah, you make a lot of calls actually. Yeah, it doesn't mean that uh if you called 10 people today, all of them will give you business. No. And that's the hardest part. Yes, you can. And the hardest thing. Yes, you can call 100 people and just get one person to give you business.

SPEAKER_02 36:05

Anyone thinks that it's easy? It's not easy.

SPEAKER_03 36:08

It's not easy. So, you know, when you you do your you know, when I was starting design, and what I came to learn early is you get a client, give you, tell you, give me a proposal, you go to side tech dimensions, you're excited. No, this is business. I have a project. Why shock on you? Nothing. After you've present, they go quiet. The next one, they go quiet, but you have to keep on going. You can't stop. You just don't stop.

SPEAKER_02 36:37

So you even go to the level of proposing like for the specific project, leave alone what you're offering for the specific project.

SPEAKER_03 36:43

Yes. How do how else do you will you get business if you don't?

SPEAKER_02 36:50

So let me tell you, even as an Indiana designer, my perception of how BDs work is very different. Yeah, especially for furniture. I don't know what my perception, or you know, actually mine was very shallow. Like the understanding or perception that most of the clients are coming as work-ins. Yeah, most yes. That was my thought. I didn't actually think, like, for such businesses organizations, you're actually moving door-to-door. Because like the door-to-door or site-to-site and whatever, I would expect for people like consultants and stuff who are looking for work. You get I don't know, I never thought of no.

SPEAKER_03 37:28

There's a time actually you can walk in a building, you find construction is going on. Then luckily you meet there, the guys who will be moving in, and then you uh strike a rapport, and you're like, no, me understand space, you can put ABCD and you get business. Yes, but if you sit in the office, you will not get that business. But again, why am I why am I saying people need to uh do a lot of um uh networking and connection, uh you get business from referrals. Yes, most of 90 percent like I can say 80 percent of my business is from referrals. And you'll get referrals once you do a good job and be yourself and be honest, don't lie, don't overpromise and deliver what you promise. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 38:15

Imagine I'm still like I I don't know why. I mean it you are those kinds of businesses, I won't mention the whatever.

SPEAKER_03 38:21

Me walk-ins, yeah, but you see, from walk-ins, that's where you you get your clients. You serve your client in a good way, they'll put uh word out there that no, go and see this guy.

SPEAKER_02 38:35

Oh, because not necessarily the ones who are walking in are the ones buying, yes, but maybe they'll connect to someone else. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 38:42

So the thing, the moment you think like the only person who's working is the only client you have, that's where you go wrong. I mean, my mantles one, every client I serve, they bring me two clients. Yes.

SPEAKER_05 38:55

Wow, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:56

So you have to put your best foot forward. Whether you're buying or not, I'll serve you the same as the person who's gonna buy. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 39:07

Do you go to the levels of doing like the space plan and stuff before you get the work?

SPEAKER_03 39:11

Yes. How else do you get a j uh?

SPEAKER_02 39:15

You know, so why I'm asking this question again is you see, like for you guys, already have the products there. You get you already have the products.

SPEAKER_04 39:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 39:23

Even if I go and take the measurements and stuff before you commit, there are things even for me, I can be able to just see here it atosha hapa. I can quickly like give you a quick consultation with you a happo. But I do understand. Now, or rather, I'm now understanding some of these pieces you actually need to actually put and tell them, Sasa he meetosh yeah, and that was that was my selling point.

SPEAKER_03 39:45

Because any basic salesperson doesn't have that advantage.

SPEAKER_02 39:49

Then they're just selling you, oh, it's this one looks nice. What do you like?

SPEAKER_03 39:52

Yes, yeah, you're like so me. I'll be like, okay, let me come, take my dimensions, fit in the furniture for you. Yes. So of course I've gone that extra mile. So I of course I'll sell.

SPEAKER_02 40:03

Yes. Oh, so in yeah kujitumatu.

SPEAKER_03 40:06

Ini kujitumatu, you you can't just sell without kujituma. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 40:13

And in terms of like so, okay, you still you you do the renders, is do a lot of people asking.

SPEAKER_03 40:20

No, not necessarily, but no, no, no, not necessarily not much.

SPEAKER_02 40:27

Yeah, yeah. What are you thinking about AI? AI is good.

SPEAKER_03 40:31

AI is very good, and um the people who are going to survive are the people who know how to use AI.

SPEAKER_02 40:36

So are you using AI yourself?

SPEAKER_03 40:38

I'm learning.

SPEAKER_02 40:39

I like that. He is learning. I'm learning.

SPEAKER_03 40:44

Yes, yes, because it's a very powerful tool right now.

SPEAKER_02 40:48

Yes, okay. Yeah. Where are you seeing yourself doing moving forward? Are you still feeling like I'm enjoying the BD? You know?

SPEAKER_03 40:57

Uh BD is nice, but uh I'm looking at maybe advancing much, much in the next few years. Um, most probably maybe getting a bigger, a bigger role, if not doing my own things, uh consultancy and stuff. Because the knowledge I have right now, I feel like I can run a business. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 41:18

What kind of business would you want to do? So before we proceed, let me pause. We may decide to cut this or not. Whatever advanced you, would it bring you problems? No. With your influence, you're sure? No. Or was the same. Hey, we are not planning.

SPEAKER_03 41:36

No, it's part of growth. Yeah. And uh, I feel um if I want to grow, you should not stagnate me. Yes. Actually, you need to empower me to be a better person. Yes, being a better person means you're growing. So if I get extra skills, they need to get to know where these extra skills can be used, you know, for the betterment of the company itself. I get it. I get it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:02

Other than now the degree, is there any other certifications or trainings that you've done separate that maybe another aspiring designer can maybe look into? Or maybe we can point them in that direction?

SPEAKER_03 42:15

Yes. Uh, presentational skills. How do you present yourself? How do you present your business or your your your um your ideas? When you're pitching to a client, how do you carry yourself? There are those um when you're going to to do a presentation, are you closing yourself or are you talking to yourself or are you talking to your audience? So the soft skills that you need to learn how to interact with the client. You how the body language, how do you when you're standing and presenting yourself, how do you stand? Yes, what what are you portraying? Are you being positive? Are you being closed off? Closed off. Because sometimes when you're presenting a client, it's like, how do you uh handle objection? Why did you put brown colour here? And no, umejitolea, um, this is the best. No, you've given and like they and sometimes clients water down our work without them knowing. You've put in a lot of effort, you've designed the whole the whole night, tomorrow you've prepared for the presentation, then you get objections. How do you handle that without showing the same to the client because the client is watching you and they can say, of course, when you're down, your spirit will go down. So you need to know how to handle that. So you need to study to learn about uh presentation soft skills and how to to have that face.

SPEAKER_02 43:43

So, what tip would you give about having that face or handling objection or rejection or hearing the no? Hey, the no big NO.

SPEAKER_03 43:51

Yes. Uh don't take it as uh I won't say don't take it as as a bad thing, take it positively. Always stay positive. Yes. Try to keep yourself positive.

SPEAKER_02 44:04

So what are yani unatuanisha pummeland, you're staying positive.

SPEAKER_03 44:08

What else can you do? You need the job, you need to be staying professional. Yes. So you handle it better. It's okay. Thank you for your critique. Uh well noted. Then just take it, take it in, then proceed.

SPEAKER_02 44:22

Let me give you an example. I remember when I was an intern, I'd been given a big project, a whole hotel, not a restaurant, hotel with do how many floors. My boss came like one, two, three times. Actually, I think it was two times. And never came again. So many one ended up picking. And you know, with the knowledge of just school, you don't know nothing. And I remember this particular client had given us something to do. And when I went back, I'd done the layout, the furniture layout. Because it was a hotel, so the spaces were doing. So I did, and then I went back. Or I can't remember what drawing, but it was a drawing. So when I went to present, he was so upset. He told me and he was an engineer, so he tells me, um what more or less crap is this you've done? Um I could have done this in in in one hour here, and you've done it for a whole week. Like you went last week we met, you've come, this is what you've presented. I could have done it myself. In fact, after it wasn't one hour. I think he really minimized it. Like I could have taken something like 15 minutes. It was like a very short period compared to the one week that I did Shikilian that work. You get now, client and a kwambi of your tell tip to designers. How are you responding to that? You mark us now. This thing I could have done it in 15 minutes. What have you now, Jorad, for me over here?

SPEAKER_03 45:44

Um, yeah, it's okay. It's fine. Uh um I'm sorry it took me that long, but would you give me time to explain to you why I took that time?

SPEAKER_02 45:56

They don't know the explanation, they want the drawing well.

SPEAKER_03 45:59

You will go and say, Okay, fine, where do you would you like me to change? Or what improvement you do you would like me to make on the drawing? Yes. Let also then be people who can guide you. But sometimes people will not give you that chance, but a few will do that. But depending on the tone that you'll have, because sometimes you can come out as negative, so you need to know how to vary your voice tone so that it does not come out as you are negative, be positive, be polite, but it depends, you have to have that emotional intelligence to know when to speak and when to just shut up, yes, and when to just keep quiet and say it's fine. Unfortunately, uh, in our younger uh when you're starting, you don't have that. All the emotions, all the emotions will be on your face, yes, they will show on your face. Yeah, what what what the hell? No, so uh if it's a emotional intelligence, I think it's something that if introduced in school at an early stage before you go into the market, it's something that can help. You know, so that you can be able to handle uh these kind of objections, and also schools going out and you know inviting people who've been in the market to just come and peep talk with their students and what goes in out here because uh for us nobody told us that. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 47:38

Actually, that's why like this platform is so important for me personally, yeah, because I feel like you don't need to go through the mud the way we went through, or you don't you can go through the mud, but you know this is how I can handle, or this can happen and this can happen, so I'm ready, you know. Yeah, so that you're also making an informed decision, you're not just rushing into it because oh, interior design looks nice.

SPEAKER_03 48:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The other thing that happens is you know, sometimes you we we draw in campus, you do your own stuff. You know, you're drawing with things from Archikard and those other applications, but when come to the ground, the products are totally different, the sizes are totally different, your orientations are totally different. Nobody teaches people that thing. So you'll find there's a room, but you've put the picture, a piece of furniture in the middle or you put it at the corner uh because you've not seen these things physically by yourself, so you don't relate to the space vis-a-vis what is on the ground. You are you're only using whatever is in the in the software. So if we kind of have those kind of programs, the students can come. There's a time I had students from Marseno. Where so they came. Uh actually they just reached out, told them it's fine, you can come. I took through at I took them through different uh setups or finds how to do setups, uh what took place on the right, what took place on the on the left, what how to accessorize. Yeah, and it was very interactive. And they felt like it it was very impactful. It was very impactful. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 49:17

They were during the holidays or they came from school.

SPEAKER_03 49:20

No, they came from school.

SPEAKER_02 49:21

Oh, nice.

SPEAKER_03 49:22

I think they happened to, they had a trip in Nairobi. I don't know where they were visiting, so they said let's if we get time, we'll come. So they came a whole bus.

SPEAKER_05 49:30

Oh, yeah, that's a lot.

SPEAKER_03 49:31

Yeah, it's a lot, but it was nice. I felt it's something nice. Yeah. That if other people can emulate, it will really improve the quality of uh, you know, studies.

SPEAKER_02 49:44

Because me, what I'm actually even just thinking about it, you touched on emotional intelligence. Yes. And I feel like that's a skill that people need, not only even as a beginner, even now. Yes, even now. May I struggle with it because there are moments you want to regulate yourself and you can't be able to do it, yes. And then other days you're doing a little bit better on it. But if I would say if you would just purpose to be equipped in it in a zakwaki to fit in, yes, actually. A lot of people don't even talk about that for interior designers, and yet our thing is so emotional. Yes, it has a lot of emotions. You're dealing with your boss, clients who are up and down, those who are screaming, you know. Timelines that are crazy, yes, people who are insulting you, exactly, people who don't want to pay, you know, like it's such an array of emotions.

SPEAKER_03 50:33

So you can imagine you know, working on a project overnight, then somebody just washes it down in a span of 10 minutes, and you just sleep, you know, yeah. So it's something that if you know how to handle it, you become a better person. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 50:52

Sorry, that's dumb. Yeah. So I just wanted also to ask in general or in summary, what would be your takeaway? No, I don't know which group you should be addressing, whether it's it's the ones who are in school, the ones who have left, the ones who have worked a little bit. I don't know which group choose. If it's business owners, which interior design are you talking to? Or the one who hasn't figured themselves out. And choose who you're talking to and what you're advising them.

SPEAKER_03 51:21

Uh I choose to talk to the ones who just left um campus. Is uh out here. Um interior design is a course that helps you solve problems. We're used to solving challenges, and challenges are wide. Yeah, they don't have to be, you know, just in design. Yes. It's the skill that you have. What's what can you use it for? It might be even in a bank. Yes. Uh, or even uh in uh NGO, you know jobs you cannot choose what you're going to do right now because they are scarce. So whatever job you get, see how you can use the interior design skills that you have to solve a problem. Yes. Don't say that I I I have to work in in an interior design firm or architectural firm. The spaces are very little, people are many. Look at other avenues. With the skills that you have, what can you where can you use them to solve a problem?

SPEAKER_02 52:31

Yes. Also that you're not stuck also in the conundrum of Akuna Kasi, yes. Just take what is there. Yes. As you're moving along, use those skills.

SPEAKER_03 52:42

Use your skills, yes, to solve the problem.

SPEAKER_02 52:44

Because actually, that's what you did on yourself. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 52:47

Yes. And in the process, you know, you connect with other designers, you can have it on the side.

SPEAKER_02 52:53

Yes. So use the skills you have to solve a problem. Yeah? Yes. And with that, would you like us to include your socials?

SPEAKER_04 53:02

Yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_02 53:03

Good. So we are going to drop his socials here. Please follow, like, subscribe. Go visit. You're in which branch?

SPEAKER_03 53:09

I'm everywhere. You're everywhere.

SPEAKER_02 53:11

Call me. Oh, call me. So, yeah. Until next time, please follow, subscribe, share, tell us what you learned on this episode. But before I wrap up, is there anything you feel like you want to talk about before we wrap it up?

SPEAKER_03 53:26

Yep. Okay, let's go. Of course, um, as interesting as uh um I feel like we are problem solvers and we need to harness that in ourselves and see how we can improve um as a society, uh, see how we can improve um our colleges and see how where we can come in and help that help the students know what is out of the market. Yes. So we can go, we can do we can walk to schools, you know, give them pep talks, yeah, especially interior design schools. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 54:06

Yeah. So this is actually now directed to interior designers who are already practicing, who are already in the field. Yes, not only advice to aspiring. Yes, India designers, please go out and also reach out. Cindy.

SPEAKER_03 54:20

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 54:20

Yeah, that's the only way this community or in this industry is going to grow. Cindy. Yes, thank you so much. Thank you very much. It was such a pleasure meeting you. Thank you for honoring our invite. And until next time, guys, follow, subscribe, share, and see ya!

SPEAKER_03 54:34

See you, thank you.