SPEAKER_02 0:00

I I believe the best thing you can do for a mom is empower her financially. For me, from my journey, the one thing that has made motherhood n lovely is money. Yeah. Money. Love it. I have money. Like my daughter needs this and I don't need to overthink it. I want I want to spoil her a bit. There's this. I don't not even spoil it. I'm not worried. Yeah, like I believe one of the best things you can do for mothers is economic empowerment.

SPEAKER_05 0:29

Welcome to the Studio Little Bold podcast, where vision meets execution, creativity finds clarity, and mentorship unlocks potential. I'm your host, Abigail Osidiana, and this is the space for designers, dreamers, and change makers looking to build bold ideas and shape the future of interior design. Hi guys, welcome back to our channel. Today we're on episode, I don't even know. We have so many that we've already recorded. I don't even I've lost track. But we have Olive on set. Uh-huh. Yes. I can't wait to hear your story. Thank you so much for coming to our channel.

SPEAKER_01 1:06

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_05 1:07

And taking the time. I know that's the biggest factor for a lot of people. Yeah. So thank you so much for honoring our invite. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure being here. So please introduce yourself. Tell us everything you need to know. I'll just manage you.

SPEAKER_02 1:20

That's a lot. Okay. So I'm Olive Muteti. I'm an interior designer based in Nairobi, but I generally work in the whole of Kenya for us. In this um, yeah, I went to the University of Nairobi. I know you're about to ask that. P E O N studied Bachelor of Arts in Design, majored in interior design, and I'm the founder and creative director of Adena Luxury Construction and Interior Design Limited. That's the long shot of it. That's a long shot of it.

SPEAKER_05 1:52

Yeah. How long? How long have you done it?

SPEAKER_02 1:55

I I graduated in 2021. But the thing is, uh, third year is when I had my first solo interior design project. So I'd say seven years, but realistically, if I'm to say by when I graduated, that's five years. The first project, what was it? Uh started by a kitchen, ended up doing the dining, ended up doing, you know, those projects are look at this kitchen, what really do you usually do the kitchen? And it's like, this kitchen is too good for the rest of the house. Do something about the dining, ended up doing the living room, ended up painting the bedrooms. But yeah, it was mostly kitchen, and I feel like over time it sets the pace. I tend to do a lot of kitchens. I generally enjoy doing kitchens. I do homes as a whole, but in between I tend to have a lot of just standalone kitchen projects. Um, yeah, and I think that kind of did set the pace. But yeah, that was my first project with a lot of errors, but it was still so much fun.

SPEAKER_05 2:57

A lot of learning. Like what, let's see, that first project, just for context, did you knock off anything, renovate a lot, or was it just uh what's it called?

SPEAKER_02 3:08

Kupaka makeup, oh it was oh yeah, it was proper, proper like interior design, not interior decorating, like proper, proper interior design. I knocked down a wall, redid uh the windows. It it was a structure that was built in 1992, and now I was renovating it so that it's so modern. So we gutted it to its core and redid it. For your first project. For my first project.

SPEAKER_05 3:31

How do you feel about that?

SPEAKER_02 3:32

Nice, like wow, you believe me. Because I tend to, one thing about me, I'm loud about what I do, even as I'm learning. Of course, there's the bit of you're not yet there yet, but even as I learn, I'm always like very loud. I'm learning, and this is what it's about. I have a whole highlight on my Instagram story from Django, and I think the first post is me doing technical drawings with a T-Square in uni. Like, I've always been so loud. Yeah, this is what I'm up to, this is what I'm learning right now. So by the time that project came up, it's because I was always talking about, yeah, um, I'm an interior designer, yeah, you should talk to me about your Django. I mean, school, but yeah, um, your upcoming Sherry from Django Talk to Me. So people in my circles knew, and over time, along the way, a friend trusted me and vouched me to the family, and the family trusted my work. And yeah, it was actually really nice. They were happy with the space, I was happy with the space. I didn't make money because also you do not learn the business of design. I because I uh you get excited. I feel like it's the same thing that applies when you're doing your renders and concepts and you're just getting things from 3D warehouse and Pinterest, and then what you can actually get on site and what budgets allow, it's uh a world of difference. So that was my first encounter with that, because your ideas are running wild, but you're working with a very limited budget. But no, I want glass mosaic backsplash, I want a proper handcrafted sink. At that point of handcrafted things, yeah, girl.

SPEAKER_05 5:21

I'm like, finally, if someone wants to see what I can do. Right. At that point in uni, you're not you think like you can do anything.

SPEAKER_02 5:28

Anything. And I feel like the one part uni fails us, okay, not really fails us. We learn design, but you do not learn the business of design. And a lot of us end up either running businesses or a lot of instances have found design does not exist by itself. You really have to be aware of the money side of it, whether you're employed, whether it's your business. But I feel like that lacks in school. We've never handled a quotation in school. Then now I'm here and I'm supposed to know, oh yeah, cute, you rendered that, but how much? Who's financing that? So, yeah, my first project. Loved that. Yeah. Uh on the money front, well, I I it not so much, but I mean, I made someone, I bought myself a nice watch to commemorate. You did that.

SPEAKER_03 6:17

You at least made the money.

SPEAKER_02 6:19

You're doing at least better than most of the average designers actually. And you have something to your name. Like by day, I'm on site at night, um transnight at ADD, trying to catch up with projects. So just something.

SPEAKER_05 6:33

Wait, so let me take you back a little. You say even when you're in uni, you're already posting like your drawings when you're doing using the T square before you start choosing uh software. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:42

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 6:43

You are that um what shouldn't say me forward thinking at that point.

SPEAKER_02 6:50

I is it that, or it's just that I'm like very expressive of myself. Oh goes back to I before I started, I told you I can yap a lot. So even online, I'm like, this is what I do. I I do not shy away from putting myself out there so in different capacities. And I feel like I'm one of those people. Actually, when you told me we are talking to aspiring designers and the journey, and I'd look at some questions, I'm like, I'm not sure how my journey fits into this, because my journey is like not your typical I did intern and then I went here because I I I tend to have so many interests at every given time, and I run after them. One thing about me, I permit myself, like, oh, like we're feeling that right now. Let's see what it has to give. So, in in that aspect of always like following my many interests, I'll always also share my many interests. So while I was in university, I was modeling, I was in design. So as I'm sharing, yeah, I'm modeling, I'm like, oh yeah, I was on that billboard, but yeah, look at this kitchen I'm doing, oh yeah, look at this shop I'm designing. Yeah, this is everything that I do. Like, I my online presence is always just like a collection of the many things that excite me. And so design had a home there, just the same way modeling had a home there. So yeah.

SPEAKER_05 8:08

You are never ever feeling like, oh, I need to curate it into something business related so that it looks structured and you know.

SPEAKER_02 8:16

No, I've always really just been all over the place. And I feel now lately, when right now the era we are in, we know people are going ahead of brands, founder-led brands, visible founders. Uh, their businesses are generally doing well. And now getting to that point of, yeah, now, yes, I'm Olive, and really trying to grow. Like, while Athena is growing, Olive also as a brand needs to grow. But now, as I figure out, okay, how is Olive presenting us? I've struggled with that pressure of um I need to. How to curate, yeah. But then again, I noticed the more I think of that, the more I struggle with showing up because at the end of the day, it's like you're not with all these 92 personalities are me. And I feel like none of them exists in a silo, like they each point to the other. So the whole struggle of like stra I feel like lately I'm making peace with the fact that I'm so many things, I'll express them with the chaos and the structure that they come with, but at the end of the day, this is what I have to offer, and this is me. It's been a struggle because also I was very loud and visible at a certain point of my life, then I disappeared. And like the last two years, I feel like I've been struggling with that, getting over my fear of being perceived and now getting back to just sharing myself and my life. And a lot, many factors contributed to the disappearing, but a big factor that I've like I've felt as I try to get back to sharing is that need to, oh yeah, you need to, you know, you're a founder, you need to be serious, and you need to show us this. And then I'm like, yes, I'm serious, and my work shows for it, but I'm also so many other things, and it's okay. So yeah, I feel like stop fighting yourself and just be all the many things you are, and there's beauty in that. So you disappeared for two years? Is it two years? I feel like 2023? 2022? Not like fully disappeared, but I wasn't showing up as much as I was. Initially, I was on YouTube. I was I was so visible, and it's just now that last year is when like I've really gone back. I started by doing it through Athena, then now I'm in the space of I'm complementing it also with what I'm doing individually as a brand. Then now YouTube, I'm getting back. Actually, yeah, oh, you had it here first. I'll be back on YouTube. But yeah, it's just a case of that's fine. You don't need to curate who you like you were doing so well initially, just showing up as yourself.

SPEAKER_05 11:00

So keep at it. Haven't you noticed that lately even the ones who are showing up more authentically are the ones that are doing well? As much as there's this pressure, I think this pressure of feeling like businesses need to be structured is just, I don't know, propaganda.

SPEAKER_02 11:14

It's and I feel like it's a case of creatives trying to fit in. Creatives, and I'd say neurodivergence trying to fit in a neurotypical world. Like just exist in your world as is stop trying to exist in a world you think is whatever is what you should show up as. So yeah, like you know, Nasema, and then uh right now in my brain, I'm like, Olive meskay lobesema. Because yeah, if I struggle with that, I'm like, take your own advice. Advice. But yeah, overall I may struggle with showing up.

SPEAKER_05 11:46

There you are. Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But here you are with the episode and an update every week. Which is only about this, if you've not noticed. Ah, yeah. You see, the way you're saying you're interested, even me. I'm like, today I wake up and then I'm like, okay, you know what, moving forward, I don't feel like doing this anymore. Actually, there was an episode where I was uh telling the guests, I I don't know, me, I've changed even and transitioned with in a lot of things. Still interdesign related, but to sort of like, ah, in this season I don't feel like this anymore. And then people are like, what do you mean?

SPEAKER_02 12:17

Like I think we struggle with wanting me, and I struggle with wanting to make sense to people, and you don't have to, it's your life. Does it make sense to you? Yeah, it makes you happy. You should probably go after it. It's a short life.

SPEAKER_05 12:34

What? So other than modeling, yeah. And Athena, what else? What else sparks your interest, gives you joy that you're kind of pursuing?

SPEAKER_02 12:42

Ah, community um and community like social impact. I'm a mom. I became a mom in first year. So uh the one it's like typical case. So lend a degree about certificate cable degree. And you beat yourself up. But also I I have quite the big personality and I'm hard to to put down. Even myself, like even me when you put down, it's like I'm so stubborn, and um so I'll come back and I'll show you, I'll come back. So I feel like I did that for myself post-motherhood. Then that was first year. Then in third year, that's third year, yeah, I was Miss Yoen. And I'm like, now I have the platform and I have the audience. Decision makers can listen to me. And yeah, what will I do with this platform? I'm like, I understand how much privilege I speak from and I stand from when I juggle motherhood and school and modeling. Because in all honesty, a lot of the things I'd still do in uni, someone someone else dealt my cards would not be able to, partly because I have such a great support system. And also, yeah, um I I I'd say I'm I wouldn't not even think. I know I'm very resilient. Like one of the character traits that I know I have is resilience. So whenever I'd see instances of babes like either leave school or come back to school, and it's motherhood is a lot, it's a big change. But also, I I I believe it's it's not it will not define where you end up. And so, like now for my platform, it was yeah, um, I started a plat uh campaign, started as a campaign called Be Her. So it was just like a reminder, there's a woman you wanted to be before you became a mom, you can still be her. Like, let's get back to work, go after that life, that dream. And so it's it started as a rant on YouTube during COVID. Because during COVID, everyday headlines, like once you are done with if you treat this disease dangerously too dangerously, the next thing you'll see is teen pregnancy numbers. Yeah. And as someone who's lived it, and I'm like, okay, I see, I see that. Like, here you're making us aware. And the conversation is just, how do you stop this? How do you stop this? And that's a nice conversation to have. But I also feel as someone on the other side, that conversation is not conclusive and it leaves out a big part of the conversation that should be had, which is these are not just numbers, these are actual people, actual lives, actual futures. What happens to these moms? So, because I uh we are looking to stop it great, but we already have students here who are now mothers. Do they go back to school? What happens to them? And so it started as a rant on my channel. I think it was my first video. Yeah, I was like, this is more than a statistic, like we need to also address this other side. And now in my rant, I was like, okay, now that's so what do you do about it? I generally like solving problems. I feel like even in design, that's the thing I like doing. So I was like, okay, one, I have a platform, two, I have an audience with people like change makers. So while I'm in UN, I know I'm not the only mom. We are so many, but for some reason we go around school like Hawako.

SPEAKER_00 16:26

Hawako, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:26

Yeah. So I started a campaign, had an event where like I hosted moms at iMacs for a movie, then had some counselors on site, collaborated with some brands like Zaron for some makeup, soft care for diapers for their kids and whatnot. And like that's really a drop in the ocean. It doesn't do much for them, but also I believe visibility is powerful. Like I want you to know I'm not alone. And also, not that I want to be the poster child for that, but I want my daughter to see, and I want other mums to see that it's not a life sentence. Like, get back to work. You have a life you want, you have a life you desire, go back and build it. And so, yeah, outside of design modeling, social impact, I love, love working with young mums. I didn't know that's an interest I had until I landed there, but I've always really known I enjoy serving. Yeah, because I grew up seeing my dad work in that space. And then yeah, I became a mom and I realized, like, oh yeah, like this is a group you relate with, and here's how you can serve them. And that's one thing. Outside of design and modeling, I don't actively model as much anymore. The one thing I'm doing right now is design, and the one thing I really, really want to do, I've not been doing so much, but I want to do so much in that space, is yeah, social impact for young mums and their children.

SPEAKER_05 17:49

So, for those ones, how how are you v envisioning it to go? Other than so, is it you're looking to do more events and you know, like what you did at IMAX, or is it like building a community? Like how are you looking at it or you're still thinking?

SPEAKER_02 18:02

Uh no, for the event was just it was just the it was literally for my profile, because I went, I was going to the VC. I'm like, I from the like gender office, I'm a C O N, I know there's funding allocated for this. I want to do something for the young ones. And everyone I was like, I can't know how many young ones are there. You do believe like you have that. And I ended up pulling a crowd of 80 people. So the event was like, yeah, this is an actual group within your institution for proof of concept. But the goal is not like just events. The goal eventually I want I I believe the best thing you can do for a mom is empower her financially. For me, from my journey, the one thing that has made motherhood lovely is money. Yeah. Money. Love it. I have money. Like my daughter needs this, and I don't need to overthink it. I want I want to spoil her bit. There is this. I don't not even spoil it. I'm not worried how we'll be. Yeah, like I believe one of the best things you can do for mothers is economic empowerment. And so while with partnering with people, like I did have a jiango during the first event, and now they'd uh inform them of the soft skill training um opportunities that they have. And that's that's what I'd say that was phase one of it. But right now, right now I've grown, I've grown in my business, and now the next phase I'd want to get into, you also had it here first, something that I'm working on. I'd want to empower young moms through Athena. Like now the CSI within Athena is channeled towards this group that I really care about because there's money to be made in construction. There's so many skills you could monetize, and I'd want a system where I enable you to acquire these skills, then also now present working opportunities for you. Because I feel like the best way you can empower these moms is putting money in their pockets. So, yeah, that's that's a lovely I have. I can't wait to get there.

SPEAKER_05 20:04

Wow, that's a you heard it here fast. Woohoo! Exclusive drop. You mentioned something when I just take you back a little um about privilege. Let's talk about privilege. I know it's not part of the prompts, but I told you sometimes we just digress depending on the on the guest, yeah. Um, a lot of people never mention about the privilege that they have that allows them to do what they are doing or live the life that they are living or run the businesses that they are running. Yeah. And it's sometimes nice to also tell people, okay, you can tell you to work hard, work smart, and whatever, but in the background, I also have this. So would you be open to speak about that?

SPEAKER_02 20:46

Yeah. Um when I talk about and privilege is not always monetary. Um, I grew up in Narok, like a very small town. Like me, I came to Nairobi for school, and then I stuck here because there's money to be made here. But I don't think Shago, okay, but Narok is like it is growing, it is growing, it is growing. And I was having this conversation last week with a friend I was in Narok, and it's like, this is not the Narok we experienced. What do you mean you have KFC and that cafe? Imagine. Like and yeah, it's a little sobering and redundant. But right now, Narok is growing. So when I speak of Narok, I'm speaking of the Narok I grew up in, a very small town. Everyone knows everyone. Right now it's big, there's so many people like, yeah, you can't keep track, but the Narok I grew up in was so small. The first mall came in when I was thinking high school, like the first swimming pool I was in the column. Yeah. Yeah, like it's a small town where you know, yeah, seasons has opened. That was the first swimming pool, then you had the second one, some hotel called Lezington. So it is a small town. Then I am I'm a child of teachers. My parents are lecturers. So You're typical to Kenyan family, but when I say privilege, it's in it's in the support, especially because it came up when I said, like, yeah, I was a mom in first year. My parents made sure nurse for one year, go back and get that degree, like wrap it up, or you go back to school. That's not something a lot of people have. And beyond that, I feel like being raised by teachers and then going into a field they're not so familiar with. I'd say my parents are just now getting to understand and trust what I'm doing. For the longest time, it was always okay, like, because even now, when I recently like opened my office, and within the past year, like I I have discussions with my dad, and he's like, Oh, so what are you working on? And sometimes I take my parents to site. And my parents will ask, like my dad recently asked me, when you decided to study this, like, like, did you know this is what you'd be doing on a day-to-day? Like, you knew this is what you'll be doing. And yeah, but now you see my the privilege of we do not understand what you're about, but ideally, and also go be a doctor, go maybe a teacher like uh something, something. But okay, you seem excited about this, you seem sure we trust you. That's really privilege, and also the privilege of yes, I'm resilient, yes, I'm very daring, but also my parents, in the small ways that they can have always made me so aware of there's home to go back to. We might not give you trust fund money's this, go start your organization, but they've allowed me to try, fail, go back home, lumber glucose, yeah, go back outside and try. You have that option. So, in that that security of knowing this might fail, but I mean, because also when I started at the end, I was in such a bad place. I was so depressed, I was so sad. I was home for like two months. I wake up, uh, BRS, register a name, go back sleep. I come design the logo, go back sleep. I come do a few Instagram post, go back sleep. And it was, yeah, this is home. Eat, shower, sleep. It's okay. When you're ready to go back outside and continue with the fight, go. So I'm privileged in that sense. I I am so supported and so covered by your support.

SPEAKER_05 24:40

So actually, now, just based on that, let me just take you back a little. You're saying they didn't know what you were going to do in uni. How did you choose it?

SPEAKER_02 24:47

Okay, so going back to, I said I I've always had so many interests. Um every time I try to stress back my stabs, I know I've always been so drawn to artistic expressions. Even in school, I don't enjoy theory so much. But give me something that allows me to practically show you what I'm up to. I thrive. And I feel like I'd even I enjoyed sciences because of that, because I'm not telling you a theory based on like numbers, and I can tell you where this number came from, but I can tell you like, yeah, you mix this and this, you'll end up with this, and I can see it and I can show you. That's I've always been inclined that way. I always loved drawing. I had books, I'd draw uh Barbie princesses, Tinker Bell, and I've always loved, loved fashion. I remember, I remember in class two, like having a fashion show and I'd wear poly then when we're having family gatherings, and I'll dress my cousins in our parents' clothes and we can talk in front of our parents. So I've always like enjoyed those. Then also in our family, I I usually try to, I'm told my grandpa was really good at carving items, but I didn't get to see that. But my dad's eldest brother, he used to make before I saw models in EDD Ivory Board, he'd make models of his houses before they are built. And then at some point Wait, he was in real estate? No. Just his house too. Yeah, he's a vet.

SPEAKER_05 26:25

And he would model his houses before.

SPEAKER_02 26:27

Yeah, Nakaton. Like he just had models of the houses. And then I remember at some point being young and coming across blueprints of our home, and I was so fascinated. Like, what's this big blue paper? And okay, but it didn't register it's something like I'm so interested in. It was like, oh, fancy. This I like, that I don't. So like I've always been so inclined to things that involve drawing, creative expression. I knew for the longest time I was going to be a fashion designer. I've always loved fashion. I believe like in this lifetime I'll still have a stint in that direction. In this life, one thing about me, I've given myself permission to do everything. Yeah, anything whatever you feel called to, run after it. It's only this life. I want to, I want a very full life. And I've given myself permission to explore as many things as possible. I'll honor the seasons, but yeah, something sparks my interest, yeah. Done. I'll be there, I'll come back. So fashion is one of those things. And in in primary school, like, yeah, those are just the blueprint and they are always drawing. Then now in high school, I hated my high school. But it's a non-fact. Anyone who knows me knows that. I didn't enjoy my experience there. What what what about it? I felt like the environment was not for me. And recently, what does that mean? Wait, because everything I feel like I in everything I felt villainized for in high school is what is making me thrive right now. And I had that conversation with my classmate from high school recently. We were catching up, we haven't seen each other in in so long, and she was like, you know, it's so funny. Everything that I see about you and admire right now, and I feel like everyone sees about you, I think you were punished for in high school. It's like what? In in form two, I was miss the school I was in. Then coincidentally, when that happened, the school magazine made a comeback. Now I was on the cover. Just feel like, yeah, I'm the kind of raining miss. Also, you just want a model. Here I am. And also I think I am honest to a fault. And I've always been honest in the sense that I am misunderstood. But for me, do I make sense to myself? Yeah, I'll go after it. And so there was a question there about my parents and my modeling. And I said the same thing. I feel to date my parents have never understood modeling. And I'll go back to that. Like, I've modeled, I've done pageants, but my parents, okay. And it's not until I became MCO and that my dad was like, oh, I like you're recognized for this. Like we've been, we've been with my dad passing outside vivo, and there I am, like on the screen. Oh, so you actually paid like for that. And it's always so funny. So I it also in high school, I was so aware of the fact that people like really don't get the things that interest me. And I was asked that question and I answered it honestly. And I remember one of the teachers quarreling me, like, yeah, you see, even your parents can't understand you. You came to school to be popular, and I'm like, why are you beefing with me? Like, I find it so problematic that they were beefing with kids, teenagers. Like, anyway, that's that's about that. But and also in high school, I really wanted to go to a school that had art and design. My school didn't have that. Wait, so you were in boarding school? Yeah, I was in boarding. The school I went to didn't have art and design. So by the time we were we were just being placed in classes, you get in a class, and then I ended up in a class that was business and home science. And now all the other You are not asking? No, yeah, you're just placed. Why? Who knows? And I hated business. Home science I enjoyed a bit because home science, not a bit, actually a lot, because it has bits that home science allows me to use the the creating side of my brain, which I have so much fun with. Business, on the other hand, when it came to selecting subjects, it was so like even the teachers knew there's no way I'm taking business. Wait, so they first placed you and then you select? In form two, after form two, so for two years you do a subject you had no say. Okay, even us had that, but it's not everyone was doing everything. So for us, the technical subjects, you're you're placed in classes and now it's decided. North does business computer, central does French agriculture, south does business on science. So it's wherever you learn, really. Oh no. Yeah. That is crazy. Yeah, but I I mean, I was like, okay, fine, I get I don't get to study art and design, which I was really looking forward to because I really like I I enjoyed drawing in primary, and then I learned that in some high schools they have woodworking, they have art and design. And I was like, I just can't wait to get to high school and study art as a subject. I didn't get the chance to. But now um I feel like I did a lot of side questing in high school. Okay, I do a lot of side questing in life, but I did a lot of side questing in high school. I was in drama club, I was I was in drama club and I was in research club. Research club I loved a lot because it was it was a niche club that allowed me to also just I never even heard of it. Yeah, it was by Ipsos Innovate. We were not so many schools, like even the funkies, we'd be very few schools. So every year you're given a theme. You research on the theme and prepare presentations, and you'd compete like within your region, get nationals, and even once in a while, because I remember at some point, before I got to that school, I had that there's a group before us that had even gone to Sierra Leone like to present their research. I enjoyed that club so much because there was a mix of creativity, and then I'm generally very curious. It fed that about me. And one thing I feel like I really do well right now is my presentations. I'm actually so proud of the proposals I send out. And I feel like that I learned at research because you'd research like junk food consumption in Africa and menstruation products, and like create. We'll do pie charts, and because now we are talking about junk food, like Nikans, the soda to mefanyaka baggraph.

SPEAKER_03 32:44

So like it showed me and you're a visual person.

SPEAKER_02 32:48

Yeah, so I had so much fun there. I feel like one of my high school highlights was that club and what it allowed me to explore. Then drama club. I enjoyed drama club because I'm generally very vocal and it allowed me to explore that. I feel like if I was in a more natural institution, probably I'd have explored like acting post-high school and ran with it. But drama, not just because of the acting and the expression, because it also allowed me to explore my creativity. Our school was not the most supportive for the arts. So you had to make do with what you have a lot, a lot of DIY.

SPEAKER_05 33:31

But the way you're so vocal, had you at any one point ever asked your parents, like, this is not a fit for me. Yeah. Did you ever you had that conversation? Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:42

I I was the kids for I'm transferring next year, next year. You were those ones. But I then said I was but in my spirit, me, no, I'm leaving. Oh, you never used to say it. I think I'd say it sometime, and then it got to a point I was like, hey, okay, okay. So I made peace with it, but in my heart, I was like, at some point, because also I feel like for the first few years, not few, two-thirds of my high school experience, I was intentionally not doing well to piss my parents off so that they move me. Because previously in primary, they moved me from a school because you can't be topping the class every time you need to go somewhere, there's competition. So I thought, yeah, if I don't do well, they'd be like, no, no, we know you need to go. So I'd do, I know I can be here, though uh below a certain grade wouldn't go for holiday. So I'd make sure I'm going for holiday, but also not as good as my parents expect. And then it didn't work, and then yeah, I think in form three that time is when I realized, girl, you're not going anywhere, you need to go to campus. So lock in. So yeah, from 5 went to like doing like now suddenly this index CG, whatever, uh, is leading in subjects like we should go.

SPEAKER_05 34:52

But it was but it was you had the rebellious cottage.

SPEAKER_02 34:57

Not rebellion, really. I wouldn't call it rebellion because I feel like it's still it's it's it's misunderstood. It's not rebellion. Ah. It's mis no, not that that you're failing intentionally.

SPEAKER_05 35:08

No, but it's not like failing, failing. It's just that it's Let's give me, give me an average of like grid. Like Bs. Oh, okay. That's not failing, failing. It's just floating. Yeah, just floating.

SPEAKER_02 35:21

And my parents are teachers, so are you getting Bs? Yeah, but then again, it's anyway. That it wasn't even it also, it's also not like entirely rebellion, also because I realized school doesn't make me happy. So I found my spaces for happiness and I found them in clubs. I'd be so invested. Like when it's the time where we have research competitions, every time you you come, you'll find me in the ICT lab, like on PowerPoint, working on the presentations, like just their brainstorming with people. If it's the season for drama, like when it's time to practice for basketball, I'm on the court. Just anything else but school.

SPEAKER_05 36:04

So had you ever had this conversation, like is not making me happy. Live alone, I want to live. Like with your folks, being better than that.

SPEAKER_02 36:13

But you're outgoing and you But now you see Kwanzo Koshuleni, niwali m kuiva tauma wa limuni wenzao. So it's no no no no no, not in the school.

SPEAKER_05 36:22

I mean like at home, like are you guys?

SPEAKER_02 36:25

I mean, they were aware, but like it was it was made clear. It was made clear I'm not leaving, and then so I was like, okay, now me, because I'm not going anywhere, I might as well have a good time with things that will make me have a good time. But generally, me, my school, you can't pay me. You can't pay me to go back to high school. You can't, I hated it there. But still, I made some really amazing friendships and also I explored things that make me happy. Going back to drama, where I loved drama, the school would mice a lot on resources, and so you had to DIY a lot. So as an official of the club, I need costumes. The school doesn't want to spend money on costumes. Okay, drama just has to be colorful. I that house wears red t-shirts, that house wears yellow t-shirts. So I tell you, you your role is for red and yellow, yours is for purple and blue. Go borrow a t-shirt from your friend, so add fold them like no, anyway. If you fold a t-shirt, you create half a t-shirt. So you have half yellow, half red. I stitch them. We go present with that. Props, like, yeah, when people are going for games, I go to the yard to paint the props you're using with other people. So generally, I mean, you could put me in the worst place, but one thing about me, I'll have a good time there. So I found my way of having a good time and exploring my creativity, even in a space that didn't exactly make me happy. And then now home science, I did home science. Home science was fun because I enjoy creating. So I'd stitch clothes, like outside of outside of what we're doing for class, I'd like opening day, I'll come with like an extra three meters, I'd stitch like a random skirt, inter-house competitions for modeling. After I'm done doing my dress, I'll do outfits for a few other people. So generally, yeah, like I've always followed my creative impulses.

SPEAKER_05 38:10

Wow. Wait, so wait, wait, wait, wait. So now you're in this place, you're doing all this creative stuff, you're making things for people, you're then doing props, yeah, but there's still no art there.

SPEAKER_02 38:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 38:22

And then how would you end up in art?

SPEAKER_02 38:25

Because something you love is yours, you may not go to it immediately, but it's just yours.

SPEAKER_05 38:29

Isn't it a requirement? Like you must have had this. For you to study design.

SPEAKER_02 38:34

Yeah. No.

SPEAKER_05 38:35

Really? I think because I did art. Uh-huh. In fact, I got an A in art, but I thought that was uh I thought I wish I studied art.

SPEAKER_02 38:47

But no, not I thought it was a Wasn't it? Really? I don't think it was.

SPEAKER_05 38:52

Oh, so maybe mine was just like, okay, yeah, not an A.

SPEAKER_02 38:57

Yeah, yeah. Because by the time we were selecting what to study in Unia, I I had so many opinions. Oh, Olive, you you're so expressive. Perhaps low. Oh my god, I'm not sure. I'm not reading all that book. No, I actually generally don't enjoy reading books. I read books from time to time, but allow me to person knowledge in other ways. So I was like, okay, I I could argue for pay. That I could do, but the reading that's needed for me to be to be paid to argue, I'm not sure about that. And I was like, um, I don't think I really thought so much. I knew I wanted to study architecture, but also I knew I wanted to be a fashion designer. So for the longest time, in form two, form three, like, yeah, I'll you know, and you're delusional about the things you can do. So I'm going to study architecture as my main degree, and then I'm going to do part-time fashion. And then I go to India and I'm like, hey, this time. Where's the time? So I was like, yeah, I'm going to study architecture and fashion. So I'm going to be an architect who's also a fashion designer. That was me from two, from three, and a great chunk of from four. And then now when you are selecting, I don't know, you know, sometimes I just do what I was doing there. You hear things and then that names that name is fancy. My cousin was doing actual and I'm like, that sounds interesting. Actual. Actual. And I'm like, what's that? Because yeah, I think Josen Mukhtanana, like my journal, and I think Acturiel was there someone, like Acturiel, like, only we don't like numbers like that. The only time I like numbers is in construction. One thing I enjoyed, I I loved construction. Like geometrical set work. What? Transcribing, inscribing. Oh my god, like I loved it. Like Mimi Mathis was in calculus to feak a construction. Yeah. Like I genuinely, genuinely loved construction. And I see it now, because even on SketchUp, I like thinking, okay, if I worked with this shape and like protruded it into like something, where will it end up? So I genuinely enjoyed construction. Then Actura was like, okay, that sounds complicated and fancy. Like that would have been me. Thank God. So I selected, I selected literally I I can tell you, I I think I selected architecture. I I came across construction, project management. Actual was there. Also, I feel like um we didn't have much guidance as you're selecting these things. And my argument, what I I will do with my daughter, I feel like I wouldn't even want her to tell me I'm leaving high school and this is what I'm doing. I'd want her like either while she's in high school or just after high school, I want to give you an ear. Good for them to do the gap here. Do that, try that, then now come and tell me. Because what does a 16-year-old know about what she will be doing for the rest of her life? Although there are people who know very early.

SPEAKER_05 42:09

Good for them. That's that's an outlier. Outliers. That's an outlier. Because I feel like my hubs, imagine my hubs told me he knew he wanted to be an engineer at he told me I think at six years old. I'm like, you need engineered again at six years old by then, and he used to make a lot of things, and at that age, that's impressive.

SPEAKER_02 42:30

It's my age, like I'm still I still don't know the final destination. I know I'll be many things in this lifetime.

SPEAKER_05 42:37

Even your big age.

SPEAKER_02 42:42

Wow. Okay. Where was I at? Like 16 years old, don't know what to do. Yeah, yeah. So even for my daughter, like ideally, I mean, I would want her to like, I want her to try so many things, then be like, you know what, this is it for real. Because now I feel like for me, yeah, design, this is it. Like, I'm so happy doing what I do every day. Even when I'm having the worst day with foundies or suppliers, I am happy. What's the best part actually that you like about design? Because there are so many things. I'm solving problems and I see my solutions and they're tangible. On site or just everything, yeah. Like, yeah, generally. And then also, uh like just seeing how you work, like it's I'm not I'm not ending world wars and hunger, but here's someone who'll be so happy in their home because of something I did and it makes me happy. It's on the way. Oh, really? Yeah, I really generally enjoy that.

SPEAKER_05 43:41

And then on the tasks, let's say on the interior design tasks, what what would you say is your like thing?

SPEAKER_02 43:46

Conceptualizing. Really? Yeah. I don't like actually in an ideal world, I I model, I leave people to do the I hate detailing because it's so redundant. Also, yeah, my brain, I'm the kind of people like. I I I feed off, is it dopamine stimulation? And if something becomes so repetitive, my brain like gets someone else to do it. So I really enjoy modeling and coming up with concepts. I don't enjoy the detailing. I also I also don't enjoy rendering as such, because it is set the lights, set the I also don't like reading. Here is the like one thing about me, I I enjoy modeling things from scratch. Like even if I can find it on three house, if I want to modify something, I and that's why I love SketchUp more than any other software because it allows me to play with shapes. And I love that. But now when it becomes the repetitive, redundant bits, I don't enjoy that. And um the other thing I feel like as a designer, make peace with what you're good at, make peace with what you enjoy. Don't force yourself to be everything, because you can't be everything and you can't be good at everything. Be so good, so undeniably good at what you're good at. That's it. And I and I feel like for the longest time I'd beat myself up for that, because peanut I have classmates like it's week two of the semester. Like, why why is your proposal complete? Why? Why I'm still tinkering with ideas. I still have 37 tabs open. What's the technical drawings? Like, what do you mean your technical drawings are ready? Anyway, I struggled with that for so long, and I always and the other thing I'm learning as I grow what makes you different does not make you any less good. It's just it's not just not your thing, and it's okay. You have your thing, focus on that. Because every time you focus at the things that are not yours, you'll always tell yourself, I'm not good, I'm not good. But you're good at that. You did that. So for me, it was like the technical bit of it. I dread technical drawings. And every time our lecturers would come to like review tech, because they said the ATD was tough. No, and before they see the final thing, during the semester, it's just technical drawings, technical drawings, and I hated it. But when you get to peanut, my station looks so good. My mood boards, my the technical drawings will be there eventually, but give me time, I'll get to it. But concerts and like how, like I said, I enjoy presentations. So my presentations will always look really good. And uh, in was it third year or fourth year? One lecturer told me something, and I feel like it really now set my path so clear. He clocked me. Like anytime he comes to studio, I'll show him, like, yeah, this. And then, but you don't sound like next week. And then he was like, Olive, this is the third week you're telling me next week. And I was like, but here are the concerts. And then it was like, he marked and went ahead and laughed about it. Then I think we were going to the, we'd have some classes where I think we are doing exhibition design and exhibition and display design, and we were going to the museum to have a look at it. As you were walking to from your end to museum, I happened to be walking, like we in in a big group with the lectures. You are walking? Yeah, from ADD to Museum Hill.

SPEAKER_05 47:08

Oh, okay, it's not very far, but anyway, now I'm thinking about it now because of the the way the roads were changed. The red roads were not like this now.

SPEAKER_02 47:17

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so it looked less like as a group on our way there. And then we are just talking in groups, like conversation bits, bits, bits. And then I don't know how it came up. That that semester, one one of the things we we do, like you'd be told, pick an animal, design a furniture piece inspired by the animal. Um, pick this design studio you're sitting in right now, pick a concept, redesign it. So I picked the studio, and I my concept was I was transforming it into a Bali-inspired wellness spa. Never been to Bali since first on TV, but overall, like, yeah, I genuinely just enjoyed tinkering. And my concepts were so nice. And then the lecture I was like, you never have your technical drawings with you, but your concepts are solid. Then he said something, I'd pay you any day for concepts, and concepts are rot make money. You can always hire someone to do the technical drawings. And I was like, hallelujah, that's it. And I feel like that's really important. Oh, really? Yeah, like anytime, like, yeah, that was like that lecturer probably probably doesn't even realize what that meant, but like that really cemented my confidence in because yeah, I am so confident in how I ideate. And I feel like, even, of course, as a woman and a young woman at that in construction, there are biases. Yeah. And I see it happen. Like, I walk into a meeting and there's the expectation of, oh, when when does the older man walk in? Oh, oh, this is oh, you're the person you're meeting. Or now that I have an office, people will call and book for a meeting, and then when they walk in, they come find their team, yeah, at the comment space, then they need to speak to, yeah, they're showed to my office and they come in and it's me sitting there. And those who already know to expect me, that's fine. And but there are those who you'd see, like they're looking at if it's a couple, they're looking at each other. Um there's you can tell someone is tiptoeing, or they can't ask you how old you are or how experienced you are, yeah, but it's there.

SPEAKER_05 49:20

You've had someone actually ask me, and I'm like, yeah. Yeah, and then they're looking. Actually, I've found there's an way that they're currently using to know your age. You're like, how many years of experience have you? Yeah, I'm like, I know you are, you just want to ask my age.

SPEAKER_02 49:34

Just ask it's my age. It's it's it's a bias that exists, and I over like over time, I feel like had I not have like a lecturer who told me that and actually grow into my confidence of my strengths over time, these instances right now running a business would have been shaky. Because you also go to site, especially on site where you're being onboarded, and all the other professionals are there. Most of the times the structural engineer is a man, the architect is a man, the contractor. And older. And older like you're not even my parents, not even my dad old, older than my dad.

SPEAKER_05 50:11

How young is your dad?

SPEAKER_02 50:12

I'm the firstborn. Oh, really? Yeah. So, like, there's there's I I went to school and I passed. But also, I need there are several layers of proving yourself in addition to that that you have to face every other time. But now that conversation star like sparked something in me that started growing me in my confidence of, okay, fine, like there are buses, but let me say something. This is what it is. Yeah, like let me say something, let me say something. Once I say something, it's like, oh, you actually know.

SPEAKER_01 50:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:47

And the number of times I've been told that is even weird. Because the other day we were with her, we are visiting a supplier, and the supplier is walking us through something, and they're trying to, like, they're selling their item, and yeah, I'm oh yeah, that will do this. And then over time, like I'm feeling too many things, is trying to communicate. And oh, you really know your stuff. And I'm like, I work in this industry, I do this every day. Like, okay, it could be a compliment, but also like what's the expectation? But then again, I feel like, okay, as a woman, this conversation has had so many tangents. As a woman and our young woman at that, of course there are biases, yeah, but be undeniably good. That's the only solution. And also, you cannot be undeniably good if every time you're ruminating on the things you're not good at. Yeah. Make peace with them. At the end of the day, Kenda site client attackama draftsman Nimimiamini. It's the initial idea that they loved. Is this what is going to be implemented?

SPEAKER_05 51:44

Executed well.

SPEAKER_02 51:45

Exactly. That's it. So I won't I won't beat myself up. Oh, defy renders is the new software and I'm not good at it. Every once in a while I'll do a render, but honestly, I'd rather someone else. And also the other thing is allow people who are better than you to do things that they're better than you at, and you do what you're good at. So for me, I know for sure my ideas will bring in the money, but my drawings, I don't have to like let's discuss the idea. Let her let someone else handle what the fundies will in will interpret. I'll be on site to make sure the execution is right, but I won't crucify myself because I I don't know this new software. I don't like what am I good at? Ah, yeah, I can communicate my idea and I can see it and convince you. Let me run after that.

SPEAKER_05 52:29

So for me, I remember when I was employed. So I won't really use now running my business. Let me use in employment. Even my business, actually, when I think about it, we are stronger at detailing because I think also the introversion and stuff.

SPEAKER_02 52:43

And in my found it, Marceno people detailing y'all are so good. Yeah, any drawing I've come across done by someone from Marceno, it's really impressive. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 52:55

So for me, it's a sort of like if I could perfect world for me. Can you just tell me what you want? Show me the concept, do the renders, and then may I just channel for you what you need practically? I just channeled. So you love doing schedules. Schedules, details. So right now, I don't love it. So tangent, let's start. When I was employed or when I was practicing, or the people that, or the work that I would prefer to take in, like you guys come up with the concepts and stuff, stuff, stuff, then I channel out whatever you need. Like, because that doesn't need too many meetings, doesn't need we can just work in a cocoon, we don't need to meet. So you've just seen the concept, and this is what it looks like. And the fundi understands it. And I've taken it to the factory in in whichever country, whether it's Kenya, wherever, China, Dubai, whatever, and it has been built. I just check for you that it's fine. Site Aki, my god, I wish site could be removed. I hate site. Oh my god. It's so interesting.

SPEAKER_02 53:42

Our personalities that shape our interest.

SPEAKER_05 53:46

Even meetings. Oh my god, anytime I'm meeting, Yanni can just try Yanni. I'm like, can we do it tomorrow? Can we like I don't like it?

SPEAKER_02 53:54

My favorite part of design is being on site.

SPEAKER_05 53:56

Ay, I hate it. In fact, was I'm I'm there just looking, we're like, okay, now we're just looking at walls. Now we're just looking at the chips. I'm okay. Oh. Now what are we doing? I hate it so much. I hate it to the extent that when we are constructing constructing our home, I am the ID. I did the concepts, whatever, everything we needed, both the materials, and I left my hobby to supervise. I was like, uh In fact, I was like me in Takwa said now, pikia chai.

SPEAKER_02 54:21

Actually, now that you now going back to high school, like and how I ended up now like locking in design. In just when I was about to join uni, my dad was designing now the home we live in. Like the architect was working on the drawings and whatnot. And I'd be so like intrigued by the drawings. But at this point, still I'm architect, part-time fashion. So even during my gap year, I was like, you know, maybe I can go to Mark and Soul and study fashion. Then, you know, as I'm studying fashion, uh architecture degree will start somewhere. But then again, gap year when people were gap year when people were doing computer driving. I mean, I told my mom, no, I'm going to your tailor. I want to. Oh. Yeah. So I spent time like pattern drafting. Yeah. How long was that? The entire time as I waited to go to uni, I was just, I was buying, I was I was drifting. You you see bed sheets. You'd find really nice patterns that you're like, oh wow, this is for the bed. This looks like a proper dress. I'd get it, make a top for myself, make a skirt for my sister. That's what I did with my gap here, like just tinkering with clothes.

SPEAKER_05 55:31

Wait, wait, wait. So let me roll you back a little. Let me pull you back a little. Start chronologically, uni, in between the uni, you had mentioned, I think at the beginning, that you didn't do like the normal internships and stuff. Did you do? Let me just confirm. None. I yeah. Finished. Did you do any jobs in between?

SPEAKER_02 55:47

So I've been I've never like been formally family, like in uni. No. So in uni, I I worked but as a social media manager.

SPEAKER_05 55:57

In uni? Yeah. Wait, when you uni need when? Because this is social media management and stuff is a very good idea.

SPEAKER_02 56:03

I was a social media manager in 2018. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 56:08

Okay. This one was r run for how long? Uh like around four months.

SPEAKER_02 56:13

It's yeah.

SPEAKER_05 56:14

Oh, so it's longer even than a normal internship. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:17

It wasn't even an internship, it was just an actual employment. Then now after that, I did that for a company in Kenya. And then I was like, okay, I enjoy creating your posters and managing your socials. So I now did it on app work for like international clients. I'd have like several clients back to back. So it's I I I I was like doing business. Um, it's either making money modeling or making money from social media. Oh, I also sold thrift clothes. So that is uni still. Yeah, that's uni. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 56:46

The selling of thrift clothes was for how long? Two years. Wow. So it's a long period. Okay. Question. This one where your social media management, what was the toughest thing about it?

SPEAKER_02 57:00

Um, it wasn't. Now they how do I put it? And you see it in design. People know what they want, but they don't know how to communicate what they want.

SPEAKER_05 57:15

So you kind of have to pull it out of them or get some t-shirt from their conversation to know.

SPEAKER_02 57:20

You you can design a and you're like, I could swear you said you want tops, and now why are you saying you you want grey in this house? You so people so and that would be a challenge as someone, especially now for a new brand. If it's a brand that has been in existence, their identity exists. Yeah. But if it's a new brand and you morphing out their online identity with them, there's that bit of what they say and what you present as a result of what they said and the feedback. So I'd find like that's that bit used to be a bit hectic, but then again, it got repetitive, Sana over time, right? Being a creative I need a new exciting thing. So, but that one was just like, okay, I'm always on Instagram on my on my page I met as well. Make some money, I mean it was just like a hobby that was making money. Wait, I've just remembered something.

SPEAKER_05 58:18

Now that our conversation is being like zigzag like this. Wait, remember they was mentioning to you like maybe at our farm that if an ideal world would be you guys give me concepts on whatever, then someone else goes to site and supervises, and someone else does the concept. CC2 to fanny your detailing. Because my document for my if I'm to do a printout, you know, like 100 pages and stuff. Anyway, but me myself as Abigail, yeah, because I really don't do uh now the detailing anymore. Yeah, I found like my strength is in ops. And if you realize everything I'm doing, including this, this is really not media. This is more an operational job. Yeah. Because it's like, I need this, I need someone to come, I need a guest, I need this, I need the venue, I need, you know, it's just operations. More or less, I'm in the business of operations for this podcast, right? So also for the business, I'm like, okay, for me, I just want to close the deal. I'm good at closing, I'll close. And then after that, may I don't really want to know the details. As in, I just need to set everything in stage. We closed it, we collected. Who is doing what? How are they doing it? By when are you submitting? Is it correct? Is it forever? You have your things. Why are we getting this way, buying this way? Full stop operations. And we ran, good to go. If I could just purely do that. So I mean, like more or less, I'm interested in the business of interior design, not the interior design.

SPEAKER_02 59:44

No, that's very textbook of an introvert. I find like introverts drive with that. Yeah. I, on the other hand, me if you tell me your ideas. Yeah, let me, let me, let me toy with them. I love the conceptualizing bit, and I found that even within the business, the one part I struggled to let go for so long was that bit until I realized I'm hurting the business, because now the demand is there. You can't. Yeah. So I'm like, that's the one part I really love and I feel I'm good at. And I feel like it's the one part our clients enjoy. Because I've had a lot of instances where I came in as a consultant, but because of how much I care about the concepts, the clients are like, ah yeah, Fana, now you run with this to the end. Like, even for us having a contractor implement your ideas doesn't make sense. You come with your team implement it. Because for me, I don't know. I and it's another thing I'll come back to, I'll put a pin on it. I care about now for you there. You've said you care about the operation side of it. I care about the design side of it and ideas, because over time, the way I was saying in social media, I learned it and I clocked it. People don't know what they want in their homes. Yeah. People know what they've seen on Pinterest, they know what they've seen at their friends, they know what they've seen in showrooms, but they do not how know how it translates to their space and how they live. And that's the other thing I love about design is approaching design from the user experience side of it. Like when I'm going into a home or when I'm designing a shop, anything really, I really put myself into the space and I'm like, okay, what do I want? Like I'm designing a holiday home. I'm like, okay, how do I behave during vacations? And I I love, like, I think it's now what I said I enjoyed in the research club. I enjoy now that side right now as a designer. Like, even before I get to work, I'm like, okay, you said like at her during the first initial site meeting, okay, what's that family dynamic? Like, oh, you said you said you like hanging out in the kitchen. Oh, so like I want to sit with that information and just imagine it. I have so much fun with that. I get so excited doing that. Me, I just want to panga people.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:02

I just want to panga, and like me, I'm an achiever. Yeah. If I'm to say ABCD, I achieve everything that I do very like. So I just need to panga you. For example, let's say your goal is, let's say, let me use a slow figure so that I don't show up people here. Let's say your goal for the year is one bob. Yeah. Let's say if it's money, I know how to break it down to the little, okay. This is how we're going to do, these are the tasks that we're going to do every day to achieve this on a weekly, on a monthly, on a this, and we'll hit by this time, and how to track it and how to follow who needs to do what, who do we need to bring on board, who do like operations, pangering people. And then after that, the details, not my issue. So I think I thrive a lot better in startups and you know, things and small projects. You see, like, yeah, that's why I think I started the podcast like by just by luck, and I really enjoyed because it's like a small operation. We started and finished it, locked it down. But now design projects, as is she means nanny bo.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:55

And then for me, eventually the goal, even for my business, is to hire someone like you. Like you see, now, like an emigrate, like someone, because one thing about me, I have endless ideas. Like my brain is always churning ideas. If and and I feel like now going back to I I'm re I I was raised by teachers. There's no one in our family who's been who's been in business, what any employment. So in that sense, I'm chatting a new path for myself, and I have no reference. And then also it's in construction, like, girl. And then also one thing you tell someone in chair design, oh, so you know, and it's like, no, like literally, like I'm so technical. It's not, it's not colour what colour will go there. If anything, actually, I wouldn't say I enjoy styling that much. I enjoy and going back to there. I'm saying I I like I want to think about the user experience of a space. I enjoy the technical side of design. Ukuqua finishes, that's one part I'm usually at a very willing to delegate. I uh the only thing I usually have, I say I love playing with texture. So I'll only have in putting maybe do this, maybe do that. But like, me, let me solve a problem. Like you said, you don't have storage, it's a problem, but you do let me think about that, arrive at a solution. Like, let me solve a problem. That's the side of design I enjoy.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:25

Me, just tell me you want this project need to be done by this time and you need A, B, C, D. I'll get, I know which designer to put on this, how they'll do, who will distribute to do the work. When uh are we losing money or not? So, me sometimes even clients with those ones, I you your two money, whatever's because I'm go, go, go. Like, you know, the people are super flexible on like schedules and timelines, and or we don't need to follow the contract. Me, I'm like, I know. By the Friday, we need to have done A B C D. Let's go. You're chilling, eh? But now you're telling Miss Dre, now let's think about whatever's now. I postpone conceptualizing so long.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:04

I'm just not for me. I can't wait. The one thing I can't wait to get to is I'm gonna hire someone for operations, someone who minds those details so that they allow me to drive in the creative side of the business. Because we, the people's relationships, and the creativity, that's now my faulty. Hi, mess trying to be able to do that. Daily running, like this, this, this. I do it, but I struggle. And to a point, no, it's the things I'm actively learning. Like last day I did syntomy, because now it occurred to me like, hey girl, like you've not no, I did entrepreneur. Oh, and yeah, it's one of the like really good investments I've made because I got into this world fueled by delusions and excitement. And then you get to a point, excitement and passion is really nice, and then you get to a point, hey, passion is not enough, it needs structure. So I panic, registered for Saint Honor because now I got to a point like my business. Was growing faster than I had planned, and I'm like, what to do? This is something really nice, and it will crumble because I don't have the structure to support it. So systems, structures. Right now I'm I'm getting the systems are not there, but they're not like they're there, they work, but also I I I am not going to live in denial that they couldn't be better. And and them being better sometimes looks like someone else doing it. And while, yeah, of course you have to stay lean while you're starting out, you know. But the goal for me, I'd want to have someone handle operations, and then me too niachini ni meet clients, and I'll nahi kwa you tell you. Okay. No, I want someone like you, you want someone like me. Exactly. Because for me, like I have like the initial meetings, I have so much fun. Like I could, like a meeting that's supposed to be like one hour, I could be there for like three hours. Like, show me, yeah, that's all, yeah. I think that should be knocked down. Yeah, yeah. So, engineer, can I knock this down? Yeah, and then I can add this, like in the I come alive when like I have so much fun doing that. Like, I think that's the part that's uh I try to do that.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:18

Yeah, guys, Munona, you don't have to be the same, you don't need to do the same thing, you don't need to like the same things. Yeah, no. Hiya, it's so interesting.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:26

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:28

So you finish at this point. After uni, what do you do first? Because you are doing social media management, then you're doing um the thrifting.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:37

After uni, I was already also designing because you see now my first design project was in third year. I was already basically I was working as House of Leave. That was the name I was going by at that time. So yeah, I had projects like during Lini and as I was going out of uni.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:55

Biggest shocker um of your first three projects money.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:01

What about money? Like I said at the start, hey, the business of the of design and the passion of design, there is they're two worlds apart. I like by now, like you can tell I love, love, love, love design. And of course everyone loves making money. So there is there's when there's a disconnect between something you love and the return you expect, there's a kind of heartbreak that happens there. And there's this there's this YouTube video where Patricia Kierona kwa geni we say she talks about how her art, music broke her heart. And I feel like that season I said I dropped off social media, that was what was happening to me with design. Because this is something I love so much and I give my all, but is it's not translating. Also, what happened? Um, a lot of my friends coming from high school getting into uni ended up in tech. So within my first year of uni, there was this wave where so many people went to Andela. A lot of my friends. Even mine. A lot of my friends went to Andela. Two, let me not say many. No, a lot of my friends went to Andela. And then a lot of my close friends are now in tech. I mean, we're in first year. My friends go to tech. After first year, I take one year break. I'm at home nursing. By the time I'm coming back to second year, these people have two tech, two years in their tech careers. The apartments are there, the cars are starting to show up. Oof, pressure. And your age mates, these are your peers, these are your close friends. So there's that bit of, oh, you're happy for them, but also that realization of, hi, yeah, but there we are growing, and now people are starting to get into their bag and make a life for themselves. But uh, at that point it didn't like really phase me. I was just like, oh, that's really nice. But now in my head, I was like, ah, I need to lock in, graduate from this design school, and now finally get to making my money. And now you see by the time now I'm graduating, they have four years head start. So you you're playing catch up. You're playing catch-up, and it doesn't even have to be catch-up like I've made peace, like I won't get there at that rate, but I want something. And that even little something is not coming. Because you know how construction is. My account may read 10 million. Uh me in a jewel.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:36

Imagine. You know, and she can't.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:41

Like why to pass over?

SPEAKER_05 1:10:44

Then you make the mistake of using if it's not you as if my dog you have to remember kill.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:51

So, and then now at that point, it's not I'm using 10 million. At that point, of course, I'm not catching 10 million. Um doing a kitchen here, doing a bathroom remodel here. Um, assisting someone. I got her point here. I'm helping you get your curtains there. Money, because also I'm stubborn. I I registered I wouldn't do well. At some point in uni, I was employed like in a very formal structure. So, not the the initial social media gig I did, that one I loved. It was in a tech startup. The culture was so, so okay with like my personality and the culture there was a good fit that I enjoyed. After that, I did I tried again social media for this company, and I feel like social media is not something you to do 9 to 5. But they wanted me in the office every day and dressed formally. Even now, I don't like I could dress formally every once in a while, but if my wardrobe is very structured, it makes sense. So I worked there for 10 days and I quit, and I was like, yeah, I'm never doing this again. No, no, you don't even count it as part of your employment journey. It was it like it barely happened. So I registered so fast I wouldn't do well in such uh structure. So even after uni, anytime I'm like, hey, I'm at my CPN photograph. So let me actually throw it back at you. Is your company right now structured like that? So the culture at my company is very fluid. Like is okay, one of like, especially outfits, because I'm like, Kuningo nafanya kazia moneywe. So that will never be something we discuss. The only thing that's there, yes, like we have our office hours. Um I'm also so protective of the time. Like, we generally don't, we are not in the office on weekends. This is because before Athena, I had a terrible, terrible experience where I was so burnt out and it registered to me never want to do this to myself and my health again. And I feel uh a lot of times I may not always know what I want, but it helps to know what you don't want. Like, if you know what you don't want, you'll end up at what you want. And yeah, I know for a fact, like the culture I want, like, nothing is ever an emergency. If anything, these clients who come to you, like, that's not a client you want to work with. Their lack of planning is not your emergency. Honestly, yeah, because sometimes it's it's it's nothing is ever an emergency like that. And instances where I've worked with people who make everything an emergency. Even for me, never went to construction.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:36

You know next weekfanyah. The other weekfanyah, like there's no surprise that there are no walls, and by next week there's supposed to be walls, it's not a surprise.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:45

Or um uh I have a house ndionapiga plaster, but I want to move in end month. Okay, at what point are we designing? Where is your no, you just do the quotation. I'm quoting, we've not concluded on design. What are we quoting for? Yeah. And a lot of times, anyone who's coming to you with that pressure, I've had instances where I've accepted that clients like initially when I was starting, and of course, like it's an opportunity, yeah, but hey, they're usually so costly. One, you won't even make anything. And then if you do, all that money will be spent nursing what that project will do to your health. It's never really worth it. So, also, yeah, as a designer, like your boundaries need to be, you you should a lot of people will try to push you over. You need to be you need to be stubborn. Like you be fluid with feedback, uh, like ideas, but you also need to protect yourself. And also, because you see now a lot of times, I don't know if this is just me, but it's something I struggled with for a long time. Design is personal and it's something I care about. I care about how this space ends up looking like. So, feedback, like your work becomes an extension of yourself, which is not healthy. So, feedback on your work tends to feel like either praise of you or a critique of you as a person. And that's not the case, but until like dissociate those two worlds and now actually protect yourself outside of your work, and the industry, the industry will push you. So you figure out how you'll protect yourself. Also, for that reason, now you stopped doing weekends because you used to do weekends before dinner. I I used to do weekends and uh I've had there's this time So what made me arrive at this, there's this time I was doing I'm doing a residential project and a commercial project. So by day I'm on site, this residential project. The commercial is within a building where you can't start works until after 6 p.m. So 6 to almost 1 a.m. Um on this site. And then also I have several sites out of town. So um flying to Eldorett back, site, site, site, flying to another place back, and then also over you're working with people. Um, the other thing I try to to do either in my business is be realistic. I like, yes, you're a businesswoman, you're trying to make money, but also like don't make clients happy at the expense of yourself and your team. So when you work with people who are not cognizant of what it takes to end up with these nice designs that people love, and they end up overpromising to clients, and you're the engine that's supposed to make that happen. You know, people who behave it's like we tap a button and we have renders. Yeah. So there's no way you'll go meet a client and tell them they're going to have renders in 48 hours. Yeah. How? First of all, unless you're using AI and even that you need to. What materials are we using? What we didn't even agree. What's happening? Yeah. So when you're working in a system where people prioritize profit over people, that's not the one thing. For me, my b we're very young. My team is very small, but at no point do I want to prioritize clients over my team. Because clients m buy at and then the people I'm working so well with, they are unmotivated and dissatisfied because nakimbiza hippesayam to moneye. I see understand. Like it gets to a point like I'm not able to fulfill that without within these timelines, and it's okay. I'm not the designer for you. Because what's the point of being burnt out? Like, if not, I mean, and it's not even like it's not that you're lazy, it's just that this is unrealistic. So the culture within, I feel like we are a very young team. It's an we are a very young company. So I wouldn't say like you know, big companies have culture. Like for us, it's it's coming as we go.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:49

A company does have, even if it's young.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:51

Yeah, we do have, but yeah, like it's it's not like stamped, yeah, it's not stamped like and shaped. And yeah, going back, like we're very malleable. It's we discover, oh, this is no longer working, we can adapt this. And it's a case of, yeah, like it's not we'll go for the site visits, we're all talking to the client. In terms of timelines, yeah, it's what is realistic for all of us involved. It's not me, Olive. I need to close this deal and I'll tell you K show you'll have, which means I'll I now have to demand insane expectations of my team.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:22

Yeah, yeah. So actually, I've recently had an experience of that. I want to mention specifics, but more or less, um, we agree. Maybe tell me we want you to come on board, give us, they even ask you specifics. Give us uh your timelines, your price, your what, what everything that's needed. Yeah, I'm really trying to. I've also really tiptoed I'm trying to, I'm trying to cushion it so much, yeah. Yeah, because I really want to just share the lesson, not necessarily the, you know, bash the client or whatever. And then I remember now, so you have specified timelines, whatever. I've if they even asked how many people will be on the team, it ctc. I've specified. And then now, as we are closing the deal, they're like, okay, can we meet? And I'm like, okay, first of all, my contract says, until you sign them, give me a deposit. I'm like, no, no, no, no, it's easy, it's easy, don't worry. We've already discussed on the other end. I'm not paperwork. I'm like, no, then at some point, you I could hear like some backlash, like, okay, like and I respect your boundaries, but like, you know, but anyone who respects your boundaries will never have a butt.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:28

And it's like I respect your boundaries.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:30

Yeah. Then Polypolis, like, no, but it's urgent. So I'm like, okay, can they are telling me, for example, can we meet this week? And I'm like, first, you've not paid, so we've not started. Two, even if I was to meet this week, these are the timelines you guys asked for, I've given, you've approved, right? Olive, if I'm to summarize, more or less work that I said, let me use timelines that are not related to that, just for explanation. Let's say I gave you six months, not related to the project, yeah. Six months, but now they are saying no, this work is needed in three weeks. How? So I sat and I was like, okay, now even as I'm meeting you this week, what am I discussing with you? You you get what what what do I share? What you know, so I already can see like up at the already be problems because the price even that we've closed on is based on the team that I told you I have and what is for that timeline. So it means you're squeezing me to add more people with your same price. You get because you can only shorten time if you add more manpower. We've already agreed on everything, and then now it's like, no, no, no, no, no. The timeline is six times shorter than what we had. Six times is a lot, not even like it means I should have started even you know, like yesterday. Ningyanza last year and do to as a committee timeline. So at some point you sit and you're like, okay. I don't know, it's impossible.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:00

What do you feel like designers? We are not protected. We don't have bodies that look out for our interests. We are not protected, not protected. It's like you're winging it as you go along. You fight for your battles yourself, there's no law, you'll go back. You know, an architect will take you 6% of this project is for us, you it's you're on your own. You you protect yourself, you prove your work, there's nothing to refer to.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:22

But and actually, this let me just talk to the viewer. I think this is why I'm really passionate also about this podcast. Yeah. Because you get to listen to other people's experiences. Me, I know I say a lot, my clients maybe are pissed off on the on the other end because I'm sharing what has been difficult, what has been challenging. It's really not to bash, it's to show you guys be careful there's this kind of client, there's this kind of experience. This is how I handled it, so that even when it's catching you off guard, you kind of know, uh-uh, this one is a red flag, or uh-uh, I'm not going to handle it this way. Then you listen to Olive's experience, you know, like, hey, okay, because we don't have the body that's protecting us. Yes, there are people trying to create systems and things, but we are so far from even getting there. You know. So at some point I'm just sitting and I'm like, you know what? Hey, you either have to have back to privilege. Fortunately, I have the privilege of saying no to a lot of work. You get? And I'm advising people, knowing that I have that privilege. So take it with a pinch of salt. But it's because you you're also fighting, and me fighting also creates umalo alini ni mbeliako, and then you're able to now walk. You get. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:33

You're crawling so that you walk.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:34

If you are crawling so that you walk, it's I'm standing, you know, that client again will work with someone else and be like, okay, this was a problem maybe with this previous designer. So maybe let me a bit be more reasonable, a bit more flexible. Maybe I won't get the work, or I won't get paid, or I'll be fired, or I decided not to proceed. But as they deal with the next person, they'll be a bit more informed. They'll know that, okay, if I need to engage with Olive, there's a down payment. If I need to engage with Olive, I need to pay for them to start, you know. But right now, it's those sorts of like, now I'm doing the work, and then I also have to educate the clients on the ground. It's so challenging. It is, it's so challenging, you know. Yeah, yeah. So it's it's it's it's quite a thing. But maybe let me just bring you in a little as we wrap it up. What would you say in your experience, Olive, is your biggest lesson or toggle of your whole experience to date in interior design, leave the social media out lesson that you want to teach and to tell someone, okay, let me pass through this, and maybe this is what I will tell you about that. Or I struggled with this and I still don't have the answer, for example.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:49

The biggest lesson make peace with doing your time because you have to do your time. Going back to like what I was saying just before, the pressure, the pressure I had and feeling like design is breaking my heart because I'm looking at what is happening outside. Of course, growth takes time. Do your time. Because for me, I had I had a thing to I wanted to jump ship and go into tech. I did a bit of product management. Then you realize that yeah, but but then again, I'm also allow yourself, I feel like the only thing I've said, like allow yourself to be many things and pursue many things. Because I feel like knowledge and skills are like energy you can't destroy, nothing goes to waste. On all those random passwords, I've collected things that serve me right now within Athena. Things I collected while trying to get into tech, things I collected while thrifting. So stay curious, stay learning, make peace with doing your time. But more than anything, uh piggybacking on curiosity, learn, like stay learning, know the materials, know the new techniques. You cannot like be so undeniably good because also we talk about being confident, but also confidence is not something you buy in a supermarket. Confidence is something you build. And it's not until when when you're on a jewel you can answer the questions to you ask to yourself, you wouldn't be confident to answer them in a room. So learn, learn learn. Be undeniably good. Don't focus on what you're not good at. So you immender. Be like, this is what you're good at. Be so good at it. It will help with your confidence. And I feel like confidence is the game changer. Because once you're confident, you also have the patience to do your time. Because at the end of the day, like I'm good, it's just not my time yet. Compared to, hey, nanny can be funny, you're see I'll drop the ball. So yeah, just be undeniably good, do your time. You'll get there.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:06

Wait, you just mentioned something, and I before we wrap up, Antony Korudish, you may easy lewa too. You mentioned about design breaking your heart and then you taking a break a little bit. Cindy, only you need to come for a part two because our time is up and so many things we've not touched. So I I'm I'm I'm cornering her on the video. Sinyo, how how how did you navigate that? You know, how did you get back on your feet? Because you're feeling like, Amy, I'm putting in effort and it's not translating. What changed? Or what did you do different?

SPEAKER_02 1:26:39

I allowed myself to pursue other things until they proved to me that the thing I really love is design. I I was ready to jump ship into tech. I even volunteered with Africa Product Peers for a while. I did Google Project Managers their course for so long. I tried a bit of virtual assistance and I was like, I'm the one who needs a virtual assistant. I I I went uh I worked I worked in a resort. I went in there mostly for support within the social media department, but they ended up having a design department. So I snuck myself in, did a bit of within the hospitality space, then through that ended up being within a team that was designing for a festival. And I mean, all these instances, they distracted me from the pain I was feeling about interior design breaking my heart, but they also allowed me to sit and sit, like, okay, you you you can be good at all these other things, but your heart is really at design. So are you ready to give it another shot? Like, yeah, maybe I am after this break. So I revisited. So what changed when you now revisited? What changed that? You know, what changed when I revisited, I was like, okay, Pia, I'm growing old, it has to make But then again, even when I revisited, I had a proper stint of like 11 months going hard at it and feeling like yes, this is finally it. Then the rug was pulled from under my feet in the worst way possible. Too much. Okay, it's okay. But like it was it, I was disillusioned, I'd say. And yeah, I took another break that time. I was until you know I took a break of two months, and now within that break is when I was like, okay, I've I've had so many instances that have shown me interior design is what I really, really genuinely love and I see myself doing. But also within those windows, initially when I was working as House of Leave, my clients were friends, family friends, a cousin to someone I went to uni with. But like I never imagined of my design business being outside of me. And it was even tied to my name, House of Leave. I was only marketing on my page. And I think that's why even the detaching from House of Leave came about. Like I want to grow something that's bigger than me. Because eventually, at some point, I want you to trust that I am involved in your project. You don't have to see me. This team works with me, but yeah, we are handling it. So within that window of dealing with the heartbreak and coming back, uh, that the initial 11 month tint, I met people, it was my first time working on such big projects and realizing, okay, construction is a luxury, it's not a basic need. Someone who's come to you, especially as an interior designer, many Kenyans will be like former and a toy for Kuja and a box your tiles. So someone who's cognizant of the fact that I'm developing something I care about and I want value and I want to onboard a designer, that's someone who has money to spend. And so that was the first time I'm being shown what you know, like your knowledge. And in addition to knowledge, it's a passion. Something you care so deeply about. There are people who see the value in it and are willing to pay.

SPEAKER_05 1:30:08

So is it that you advocated for yourself or even them just coming in, they're like, okay, this is what you are willing to pay?

SPEAKER_02 1:30:14

No, so I was I wasn't working as an individual, I was working within an organization. Okay, but I was I was the very like I'm trying to say enough, I'm trying to say enough with without saying too much. Not the lead, I was the only designer. So basically, it's a it's a situation where right now you know a lot of companies are not run by people with background in built environment. It's people who are like, oh, there's money to be made in construction, and they follow that path. So I was working in such a situation. They have the capacity and business development and they bring me in to handle the design. So it's a it's a very big and visible brand, but I am the only engine for the longest time. I'm the one handling the design, I'm the one handling the coordination and everything. So I was, yes, so tired and burnt out, but also in that context, I was handling such big projects and because they approach the big brand, and then I show up to site and oh, it's you. Oh and then over time it moves from it's you to, oh, yeah, finish this. I even have this other home. I want you to have a look at it. So I was so affirmed in, oh, it's not a hobby. It's I'm good at this. I'm good at this, and people are willing to spend money on this. So it like I knew, I knew this is what I want to do with my life. I knew I'd grow to that point, but this now accelerated that growth in the sense that it showed me you're dreaming too small. There's all this that is possible for you. And so, in that, and then it allowed me to, because I always said, no, I want to go more commercial, because with commercial I'll be allowed to be more creative. But it's also because of the scale of projects you're working with, even for homes, the people with the budget to allow you to run wild. So I feel like within that season of falling in and out of love with design, I had things where I was shown, ah, you're good at this and there's money to be paid. So much as I was in a bad headspace, I was in a bad headspace, but aware of what's possible. So I was like, na lamba glucose, kidogo, najite kidogo, but I'll be back. So within that, when I took the break, it was just a case of, yeah, I'm registering the business. Every once in a while, I'd but at that point I was so burnt out and so heartbroken by design, I went a year without any site work. And I love site work. I was only doing consultancy. I'm like, yeah, I could review your drawings, I could do your renders, but I'm not going to site. Like I was just so I was in a bad headspace. But now within that window, uh like I come across a client who'd they had made an inquiry where I was at previously and they disappeared. So as they're making an inquiry to Athena, and then they're like, I've seen you before, but it was even before groundbreaking. Like I had made an inquiry when I was looking to buy the land. So what are the odds that the next time I've seen a designer I'm curious to work with, it's the same person. So, okay, and then they gave me so much creative freedom, it brought me back to, wow, yeah, I like this is actually what I love and really enjoy. And I was like, okay, we are so back. So I now became more proactive with our socials. But though it's the math is not my thing, but it's really slow, but I'm happy and content, and I get to structure what my work life looks like. Because I love making money, but also I love feeling alive. And if this side is taking that away, it's too much a price to pay. So I what I love right now, and I keep saying it to people close to me, I'm so grateful for where I'm at because one, I make beautiful spaces. I mean, go check out our Instagram links over here. But I and I see people happy with their spaces, but more than that, I am happy. And I have instances where I'm handing over projects, everyone is happy, the client is happy, kujahao zoming, telling their friends this is the person who did it. Like, and I I was in a season where something I love came with one thing I'll say, even to aspiring, like the designers who are in school, I and I mean this respectfully, I don't know how it I'm I I'm going to be bummed I edit. But when we talk about boundaries and clients, it's not just about clients, it's also about the institutions you end up working in, should you be employed. You need to know, the same way say when you know what you don't, you know what you want. You need to know what's a big what's a price that you're not willing to pay in the name of being at an institution. And for me, it's relationships. I said I really enjoy the conceptualizing bit and relationship side of design. To it's like it means so much to me when I handle a project from start to finish, hand it over, and we are all happy. I hate clashing, like technical bits, like no, let not this bode, like disagreeing that is okay. But I hate disrespecting people and their resources. And when you're working with people who don't who do not share your values, that is likely to happen a lot. So you are not controlling funds, your fundies are not paid, you're hurting people. Suppliers are not like I hate disrespecting people. And so when you're working within an organization where the values are not aligned, that's likely to happen. So for me, that would happen a lot. And much as Nakulipa 300 and 500, and it may not sound like it's a lot to me, it's a lot to you. You worked for that. You want to in Alicia Familiar Koyosiku. So for me to be ignorant of that and be dismissive, that's disrespect. And I hate being put in such situations. I really hate that. And I feel like I worked in a in an environment that that was always the case. And it was so draining. So also, yeah, like as you're trying to get into the industry, you have your values. Outside of knowing the growth, personally, for me, grid is something I can't work with. You know, you there are people BQ like ndoipesa, nako ipesa hindy oyango. It's not to fanya kazi, we see how much is being made. Before the project starts, they know what is theirs. That's so unfair. Because now at the end of the day, me as the designer, don't a client, na mwambi client aliambea milangon is a PG, but we Julia Mwindio Pesaaku nataka m to me butza comply. So, no, like make peace with your values and make peace with the fact that your values will sometimes cost you spaces. And for me, that's something I made peace with. Like, I won't be in a space where, especially my team, I keep going back to the fact that to me it's very important to protect my team. I'm not going to be in a space that disrespects my team and treats them unfairly in the name of chasing money. And so, even if I was to be employed, that's something I wouldn't join an institution where that is not a guiding principle. Yeah. So generally, I mean, my like I said at the start, my journey is not textbook, it's all over. But I feel like it still goes back to the same things the things I value, the things that excite me and make me happy, and the impact I feel I'm making. Because also that's the other thing. I want not me saying I don't want an operations person within Athena is because I know Avena wouldn't grow to its fullest potential if nikishili operations. So I don't want someone to come and run with that. Because also the other thing I'd want to do with Athena besides the mom, and it's something that makes me happy. I've always said, Tangam Dogo, I don't know where that came from, but I've always felt like I want to impact uh lives by creating employment. Like I want to know kunas school fitways, because I created employment. And that's something I'm doing within Athena, and it makes me happy. I'm like, yeah, there are homes that are running because this painter is here. So I'm like, I that's why I want someone to run operations, so that may live in my obedience of going, pursuing relationships, nurturing them, bringing in the business, making sure money is going into more pockets beyond me, and just preserving relationships. Relationships matter to me so much. I hate it when people force me to like end relationships out of especially out of disrespect. I hate being disrespected or seeing people being disrespected. And when it's now when it's about my business and the people I work with, that's paramount now for me. You have to respect me and my people. Yeah. Like respectfully, your money is not more important than how you treat me and my people. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:39:07

Yeah. I agree. And Kwanzaa, this industry has a lot of disrespect. People just need to know. Yeah. People need to know the reality on the ground and just have a bit of tough skin. And then also, if it doesn't make sense, I really hope my podcast will be able to empower people enough to know that you have an option, to know that you have a voice. It's scary, but you do. Yeah. Because let me tell you something fun. There's a place I worked, and then when I was leaving, this one I'd worked for a very long time. And then I used to be very resilient. You do your politics, me. I'm like, it's okay. You do your politics and stuff. Yami I would be very poker face, very professional. Then this one time I was like, you know what? I think uh uh I need to go. I didn't even throw tantrums. At some point, I just decided resignation, you know, the the resignation that you don't see coming. Yeah, that's what happened. And I remember as I was leaving one of a very senior person in the group, so it was groups of companies, tells me, you know, but they are bigger. You know, you're leaving because you have options. If you didn't have options, I know you'd still be here. You're just ringering because you have options.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:10

And I feel like people ride on that. And I feel to agree the work you're doing is important because much as you're saying, like take that information with a pinch of salt, like always be ready to leave. People are problematic because they know they have options. They know if I said I'm not taking that, someone will take it for an even lower price. It happens a lot with creatives. I I no longer model as actively because I saw that happening. Because I you'll turn down a contract, but there's someone who will take that contract with that figure. So overall, the awareness within the industry. Yes, we do not have bodies that are protecting us, but we also need to protect ourselves.

SPEAKER_06 1:40:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:50

Like the there won't we won't achieve much change if I am calling out this as problematic, but you'll make peace with it and run with it and undercut me. And I mean, okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:41:06

But can you imagine someone saying, like being proud of that? That's the company culture that, oh, you know, a majority of the people here are here because they don't have options. You're just living guy. Actually, that thing has stuck in my head for like a long time, just feeling so sad that you can be proud, that you can be proud that people are there just because I mean actually, no offense, people actually would say, I'm here because of this, but Niki Pata kwingi ne me intender. Can you imagine? Which is the sad reality.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:35

Yeah, like, yeah, our systems, you know, this is will get like political, like government overall Kenya, yes, our systems have us like in a very bad place. Like, so generally given how things are in the country, it's like hey, okay, she killed you. Which is so unfortunate. And then now, in addition to yeah, what is happening like at the global and national scale with the economy, you now as an employer, you like things are already hard. Yeah. Why, like, why do you have to be mean? I don't uh unkindness is such a funny treat. And I mean, by all means, hold people to account and have them do their job, but that does not necessitate meanness.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:17

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so that thing I always hold it so dear in my heart, and I'm like, guy, yeah, you and that means the culture is like this because you're like it's border, and you're happy and very comfortable. In fact, you're annoyed that I can decide to be like, no. So you're just a bully, basically. You're just a bully with that thing has stuck with me, and every day as we talk on this podcast, please just sit and also understand your rights, understand, like you know that you have options. Okay, and even if you don't, please always remember me telling you, work yourself to a level where you will have the option. Yeah, you get find a way to either get really good that now they're asking you, okay, you what do you think? Or will this make you comfortable? You understand?

SPEAKER_02 1:43:02

Yeah, being undeniably good is a thing, but also, yeah, being undeniably good and getting there, yes. But as an employer myself and yeah, all the employers within the design space, we were once beginners.

SPEAKER_06 1:43:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:19

Let a beginner be a beginner. And no, I I'm not even like excusing mediocrity, because even for me, when it comes to internship, I feel like I'm one person who's I I'm like I move so fast, so I need you to keep up the pace. And because of that, I recognize there's a level of dependency I currently can't accommodate within the business. I could take someone in, but you need to be somewhere and driven kiviako for me to support. That said, allow someone to be there and learning. I'm not excusing you as someone who's coming in to come in and be mediocre, because even I myself know there's a level of mediocrity I can't accommodate, like it won't work. But also, Sisuenye to metanguliya natuan yuakumbelietu, you are there because someone allowed you to learn.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:10

Mia ta I'm okay. Like the learning thing, I'm okay. I'm very tough also on in terms of standards, because me I don't like following up, and I don't like also someone following up on me. But when now we touch on, let me use a very intense word, but it's not as intense as I mean. When we now touch on human rights and you're feeling like it's okay, because you feel like anyway, hata end. Now that is nothing to do with the job anymore. It has nothing to do with work anymore, and it's like a panacea. It's a character flow, actually. Yeah, we can't, and it's the culture of the organization.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:41

That's unfortunate. Yeah. We hope we get to do better. We hope to come to appeal to the part to make the industry better for all of us.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:52

Yes. So just to wrap it up, one piece of advice, one sentence to aspiring interior designers. Be undeniably good. Full stop. Be undeniably good. Thank you so much for watching. We appreciate your time. Thank you for coming on. And we need to do a part two. Yani, let me just hook you in right now. Ndo Siniruke. We have to pick from after Kampo. I need to understand the oh, we need to understand the trajectory. Cindy, and the lessons that you took along that way. Sawa. So he, we've bulldozed this second interview, but Lazima happened. Cindy. Thank you so much. Please follow her page. Go and comment, see what she's doing. Cindy, if you meet her on the streets, say I saw you on the podcast and on your pages and stuff like that. Yeah. And thank you so much. Until next time. Bye.