SPEAKER_03 0:00

How would we define politics to someone who's never worked in corporate? Who holds the power? Almost always it comes up in terms of who who's aligning with who and who do people perceive to have power in what. Be on their good side. Yeah? Make sure you know what it is that they it's a lot of observation, and you have to be really, really observant. What would make their day easier? Welcome to the Studio Little Bold podcast, where vision meets execution, creativity finds clarity, and mentorship unlocks potential. I'm your host, Abigail Osidiana, and this is the space for designers, dreamers, and change makers looking to build bold ideas and shape the future of interior design. Hi guys, welcome back to our channel. Today I have Jacinta on set. Jacinta Karibu Kari Busana. Thank you. And thank you for keeping time. Karibu sana. Please introduce yourself and tell us anything you want people to know. Ekeliabo. Alright. My name is Jacinta Serem. Or Chepke May Serem. I am the co-founder and creative director at Vinca Interiors. Good. What do you guys specialize in, or what do you guys focus in, or do you do everything in your design? Not everything, but most of um we do commercial spaces, retail spaces, um, residential spaces. We sort of just go across the board. Oh, really? Yeah. I typically don't do commercial or not so much unless it's within a development. No, we do, we do. Yeah. Offices, office spaces, restaurants, clubs. We love clubs. Nice. Yeah. Wow. How long ago did you start? Um my own career or no, the company. Company 2011. Wow. So you've been there for long. Any business that's been there more than three years, I'm usually like now a pair pung goes. What? Yeah. It's quite some time. Quite some time. Let me take you back a little. Uni, did you go to school or no? Like that. Of course I did. We actually have a couple of guests who've not. Oh, yeah. Yeah. All right. Um, so I studied interior design at the University of Nairobi. Um, yeah, specialized in interior design from the third year to fourth year. It's a four four-year course, as I'm sure you know. I what about you? Where did you go? Maseno. Oh, yeah. Have you been? No. It is Shags. You can tell me. Okay, I don't know how it is right now, but because it's been a couple of years, but yeah. Because you know, Kisumu and Maseno are not the same place, they're close to each other, but Kisumu now is more like okay, a bit of a city. But then it was like, okay, once you're there, you're there. You're stuck there. You're stuck. Although I intentionally chose that side. Oh yeah. Oh wow. Yeah. Because my sister, so when we were making the selections, my sister was in USIU. Uh-huh. And my parents have a home in Nairobi. Yeah. And for my parents, if you get a school in Nairobi, you have to be a day scholar. And she was like, ah, she didn't have the she didn't have a good time in uni because it was, yeah. Right next to home. Yeah, right next to home. And it was, you know, she didn't get to, you know, just live life a little. So she's like, you go far, fa, fast. When you apply, just a killer that one. And Mia's like, okay, you missed out. We used to walk into the CBD with slippers. You were you're worse than the girls who are doing slides now. We used to race. We used to race along my avenue in the middle of the night. It's it's pretty fun. Wow. How lovely. Well, let me ask you said you're a co-founder. Is your partner uh was he or she? Yeah, she we went to school together. Oh, really? Yeah. Although about like four years ago, she stepped into another field. So I'm fully running the business now.

SPEAKER_00 4:19

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_03 4:20

So you didn't change anything about it after she left? No, no. I just took over, changed the papers.

SPEAKER_02 4:25

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:26

But yeah, we're still, she's one of my best friends, so that that doesn't go anywhere. Oh wow. Was it just changing, like I don't feel like, or I'm not loving this anymore? No, no, no. Um, she is um, she actually went into educating. She started with an art school for kids, and then now now it's evolving into a real like fully fledged school. So she's she's a sort of flying and she's in Nakuru.

SPEAKER_02 4:56

Oh wow. Oh nice.

SPEAKER_03 4:58

Yeah, so yeah, so proximity and all those. Yeah. She's a small town girl and I'm a city girl, but we meet up almost monthly. So she's she's you do well with your friends. Awesomely. Really? You do you think you're outgoing, out or extroverted, or you're just intentional? I um I guess when when guys came up with the term ambivat, I uh everyone now jumped on it. There's also now autrovert, and I'm thinking, yeah, probably that is closer to where I am because um you're sort of it depends on your environment and who you're comfortable with. Yeah. Because I find it hard. Like I have a lot of friends and uh what are they called? People who are not friends, but you know each other kiddos. There's the word for it. Uh acquaintance. Acquaintances, but I hardly meet up. Yeah. That's what it's it has to be intentional, especially when you grow older and everything gets really busy. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Because for me, it's it's like actually the podcast is what's pushing me like to meet like new people.

SPEAKER_02 6:08

That's really cool. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:10

And congrats on the podcast. I think I think it's a great idea. Thank you. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. I really hope that the podcast can educate people, create awareness, like make people um decide with clarity is this something I want to do, or this is just not my thing, you know, because you hear other people's stories and all that stuff. Higher. Let me ask. Do you think education has shaped your career? Education has definitely shaped my career. Um let me go a little back, let me step up a little just before uni. Um not even before uni. I think all of us got to get um a gap year, a forced gap yeah by this government of ours. Um that guys probably would learn, you know, skills like computers and at that time, okay, way back when. But you know it changed actually. Yeah, now what do they there's no like? I think my year was the last one.

SPEAKER_02 7:16

Oh yeah?

SPEAKER_03 7:18

Oh, that's good to hear.

SPEAKER_02 7:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:20

Although although it was also good to sort of break break a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 7:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:24

So um my dad, who's an electrical engineer by training, went into uh IT and graphic design. So he he had his own farm and um me and my siblings were quite a number. We got to go through him. So whenever you have a break and you're not doing much, you're you're in the business. So we got to learn a lot about graphic design, all the software, all the business around it. And though that was the gap here. So knowing I'm going to campus, I knew I was just going to study design. Yeah. And I thought it would be more more into graphic design. Um, but when I got there, I found out that it just within those two years, I had learned so much in graphics that it didn't make sense to continue pursuing it in terms of what more. What more, what more. So I I looked around and and looked for the next best thing, which at that time I thought was the next best thing, but it's just the most fabulous thing. Um it was the the path I was supposed to take. Yeah. So I found interior design so intriguing and so challenging and and dove into that. Now, why I brought my dad into it is because he also went to the University of Nairobi way back when. And um he he sort of uh we would talk about it and ask I'd ask him how it was when he was there. And now when you talked about your sister and being in Nairobi, so he was also in Nairobi and he had this thing for we need to go back home over the weekend. Where is home at this point? Uh this at this point it was in um Islands. Okay. So go back home, um, sort of how um not really naturally we would get into conversations about school, but it was he made sure that he would only give us weekly allowance. So you go we have to go back home for the weekend. Yeah, but I I really enjoyed it because I would tell I would tell him about the things um we were going through and you know, in ADD we would transnite a lot and uh we'd have guys from uh BA coming in or because of the space at night, it was closer to the halls of residence. Now they would come in and we would feel like they're invading our space, and I'd tell him the way we call them penguins, and he was like, Is that term still there? I was like, No way, you guys did not use that term because they did.

SPEAKER_00 10:21

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 10:21

I was like, what what how where did it come from? And he told me it was because they had so much time on their hands, they always had novels with them, and they were like penguin published novels. They were like penguins, penguins. But wait, how did he have so much time and he did engineer? No, no, no. He said that those guys had so much time, they were always carrying those books. That's where the nickname came from, and some other small, small things here and there, and it was interesting to have that interaction with him and just see him in a different light. Um, but one of the things again he told me about university and going there is just to open, open it's it's supposed to open your mind. So if it's don't go and sit in your car cocoon and just make sure you've you go and check out the next guys, what they're doing. So for me, I really liked hanging out with the architects who are like a floor above us, just getting to see what they're learning, made uh quite a few friends there, um, a few on the other side, the planning guys. And um yeah, got to interact a lot with a lot more people and and just kept my curiosity open. I wish someone gave me that advice. Yeah, it was uh it was like the best advice ever. So I made such good friends who I actually now work with in the industry. We collaborate a lot with architects, uh QSs, some of my best friends are QSs. And yeah, even people from my class who got to study other other units and specialized in other areas like graphics. I collaborate, I collaborate, I collaborate a lot with them with them. And again, it's about being intentional with friends. I find that when you're working with your friends, then you have to see them. Yeah, you actually make sure you have to have to be in within their space. How is it actually working with friends? Like the real, real yeah, you get to know you you get to know a little, you you get to sort of pull back from some because you see another side of them, but the ones who are good at it or more, let me not say good at it, most of them are good at it. Let's say the guys who have a little more um who are a bit more serious with the work, you get to yeah, you uh you you sieve out a few people, but you find you find you see your friends in different lights in terms of their talents that you didn't know, their soft skills that you didn't know, and yeah, and you get to make fun when you're working. Yeah, yeah, it's it's pretty cool. Oh, oh nice. Your dad, let me go back to that again. I wrote it down. He was an electrical engineer but ended up doing graphics. Yeah, he finished. He had a full career in engineering, worked for Kenya Power in high levels. And yeah, eventually he had just he was so into computers, and even I remember around 92-93, um we grew up in Eldored. At that time, we were in Eldored, and we we had a computer in the house, and he would let us play like Pac-Man and it just you'd look at his bookshelf and you'd see like programming languages. He got into it really early and um I think um it was his passion, so he eventually just did you ever ask him how she left? Like was he pushed out or didn't he? No, no, but it was a lucky, he just decided to take early retirement and jump into business. So that means if he was a lot older, it was way later. It was way later. Wow, yeah, it's very rare to see okay. Not way later, it was early retirement, so I can't remember his age at that time, but yeah, we were still in school. Oh, okay, okay, okay, okay. Yeah, wow. Oh my gosh. It's brilliant. You mentioned that you and your siblings were all there, and you mentioned we are quite a few. Do you mind me asking how many? We are seven. You're seven. Yes. Is there a big age gap between each? Some and some not. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah, because us guys are six, and these like between four and the last two is a huge, huge age gap. Like completely, it's like you are parented by different sets of ballots. Oh, yeah, they they they change quite a bit over the years. Yeah. So you get a bit more laid back. Um yeah, no, no, it was fun growing up, especially in El Lored, especially with all the space in the world. And it's good that you brought up childhood because um I I don't know, I've talked about my dad so much. Let me shout out mommy. I love you. You don't have fights. I don't have fights, but my mom. Um let me go back a little further again. Man, there's a lot of uh foreshadowing. It's okay. But um, yeah, they they were not conventional in terms of career choices. Yeah, they were really open to, I guess maybe because we were many and um they didn't have to have a doctor, they didn't have to have a lawyer, they sort of just looked at our talents and allowed us to flow in that direction. And for me, from an early age I was so good with art and you know, just art stuff. And um yeah, my mom really jumped in there in terms of I would just keep asking for, you know, colours and and um sketchbooks and different types of pencils, and she was so good with that in terms of just making sure I have what what I need. They never made me feel like it was a less than, you know. Oh really? Yeah, I would go with my drawings to them and they would just, you know, do what they're supposed to do. But I was really good, I was really good. So yeah, they they allowed us to uh flow a bit into that, and um and my siblings are super supportive, and I'm pretty lucky in terms of the social side of life. Actually, about your siblings again. Let me move. The two things I needed to ask, or I'm just curious. How was your experience working with them? Because I know at that point, now during the gap yeah. Yeah, yeah. How was it? Yeah, that's why you're asking about the distance. So almost always we had so um the first our firstborn is a bit more distance. The secondborn is second, third, fourth, fifth. We are almost like one year, one year, one year. So we were really like teenagers together, did all the stuff together, and even our friends' group really commingled. Um, so uh during that gap here, we we almost always had the two two two people in the in the business, let me say. Oh, so it was not all at once. No, not all at once. Whenever you're in there, you're here, there, yeah. So some of my bros got into graphic design totally and went with it. Um yeah, the rest of us went different ways. But how was it like working together with your sibling? Oh, working together like in the business. In the business. Oh my gosh. It was it was just like any any we my siblings are quite interesting people. We we get into it a little bit, but but you're so used to them and you know them so well, it doesn't even phase you. It it's just like, yeah, I I know, I know you. That's that's who you are. So it was it was it was just like being at home. It never really felt like we are working together. And how was it working in your parents' business? No, that's a whole other dynamic. Would someone come into the space and know automatically these are his kids? Yes, by gosh, we're like photocopies of giving the look in terms of like just privilege and you know how you get work ethic. No, we would work just as hard as everything else, if not more. Yeah, we got to be sent KYM. We blended with the office environment very well. Really? So there's no one time like you your dad is like being a bit soft on you guys. He was never soft. He's soft now, and he's and we yeah, but at that time he was pretty strict, and yeah, I liked it because it it sort of just prepared us for the business world for just the harshness of it. So, again, let me take you back. Was it so you're at gap here? Was it by force that you're idling come here and work? Yeah, yeah, it was not optional, but it was for me it was better than being at home anyway. Yeah, wow, so it was entertaining what you guys feel like. Do you want to know? I guess you could say no, but it was it was better than being home in my opinion. Yeah. And then you also mentioned your parents looked at your talents and allowed you to like flow, other than you articulating like they were saying, Oh, I I'd like some colours, I'd like to do A B C D. Is that something particular or special that you just remember from your parents that was like, oh, that was so nurturing with regards to your talents and careers and stuff? Hmm, hmm. Any one particular thing, yeah. I cannot let's say, for example, there's this lady um who homeschools her kid, and her kid is very very well mannered, very articulate, very responsible, very small kid, actually. And the kid does everything, including pottery, including woodwork, like woodwork, pottery, swimming, karate, whatever. So, you know, they the normal curriculum in school, maybe guys are in school up to like maybe midday, go for lunch, and then you have sports in the afternoon or something like that. Uh-huh. Had kid is everywhere, like Monday is pottery, Tuesday swimming, Wednesday is karate, Thursday, taekwondo, Friday, motocross like a whole array. Was it something like that? Or no, we'll just nurture you as you come. I don't think um that's sort of a new concept in terms of parenting. During our time, we just had just, I guess we were lucky that we had siblings around us all the time, so we could sort of almost always have teammates or game for games and things like that. But they generally just let us go out and play and back when we need to and have your chores. I don't um I don't see anything in particular, but just I guess um getting us in in terms of structure. And making sure you have a well-planned day, you have chores planned out, and yeah, you have siblings, they supplied enough siblings. Like the well-planned day, do you mind me asking? How was your typical day like as a child? Let me not say as a kid. As a child. Yeah. And as you're thinking about that, how do you think it's connecting to how you are today? I like that. Yeah. So um typical day would be wake up, may have make sure your chores are done. Uh we're going to be able to do that. What was your chores? Do you remember? Well, always um uh so we are three girls, so it was always cool to sort of if it was dishes, my sister would wash, I would rinse, my other sister would dry, you know, just coordinating and things like maybe that's why I like collaborating so that's why, but just doing stuff together, so have your chores done and we would get them done so fast because we had so many games to play. And um, yeah, sort of by the time we were 10, we were cooking, and the thing about having older siblings is that if they're doing it, you are doing it because you're always looking up to them. So typically we would as best as we could, according to our age, just be as independent as possible. Um, how it's reflecting now at all was there reading time, was there uh I guess uh not particularly, but we knew we had to get it done. So you had to figure out at what point oh there's no schedule. No, you just had um yeah, you had your chores, you sort of of course uh time for play, and you just figure that out between amongst yourselves. Yeah. Um in terms of how it's reflecting now, I find that uh being being able to and I feel like kids right now are really missing out on that, just that free play, that unsupervised play um is so so essential for development in terms of just soft skills, planning yourselves, coordinating, um, organizing in teams, um in teams. Actually, that was a whole team. It was fun. But just knowing that you can you can do that and and finding ways around you know, different characters and yeah, it it it it really plays a lot into just how how it translates into soft skills in adult life and how you deal with different types of personalities even at work. Um in terms of interior design, I find that whenever I have a block I just tell myself you're not playing. And the team will. No, you're just not playing. Oh really? Yeah, because when you play then you just it in creativity naturally flows. So if you have a block, when I have a block, I I just stop myself and I'm like, I'm taking this too seriously. Yeah, I'm taking this too seriously. I just step back and so uh several things. I I need to be out in nature, yeah. Uh I need my brain to quiet, quiet, sort of just quiet down a little bit. And sometimes I just find people I enjoy their company. So I have a stack of games at home, like real, real like board games and things like that. Yeah, just getting your brain into a a zone for yourself. Yeah, you're stuck. So you're inviting people over or something. Yeah, yeah. Finding people who I really enjoy that company and getting into that play zone, and then my brain comes back. Oh wow, yeah, interesting. I've never thought about it that way, and I've never because actually thinking about it for me. So as I mentioned, we are six and then there's four, and then there's two. Now the last two is um one of the last two. Yeah, so essentially it's like we grew up as two children. Oh, yeah, because you're you're now the rest are too far, are too far apart, and we realize yeah, age-wise, they're too far apart, like you can't even relate, even like it's like they're parenting you as well, yes, yeah. And then now by that time, your parents are even tired, so you're parenting yourself. Let them handle, you just survive on your own. So, um, when I think back, that made me also a lot independent because it's like you're on your own, you're on your own, like so important. Figure it out, and then now that made me struggle. I think when I look back in terms of teams, because which teams are these? Like it was those ones of so there's a flip side, yeah. It's like you need to wake up and you need to panga yourself and you need to do ABCD. So I even really struggle, even in terms of you know, getting to work with very big teams and prefer very small lean teams, or so two things very lean teams or outsourced teams. Like, I don't need to sit with you. The moment I'm there, like just seeing people and people looking, I'm just like this is a lot. Yeah, yeah, because now the outsourced teams, me, I don't need to deal with everything in the background. You know, yeah, yeah. I get that makes sense, yeah. But now in terms of like family, because of now you've been so you know, go, go, go, panga kill like a panga even even those who don't want to be panguad. You know, yeah, so at some point, even you're like, okay, you need to take a step back, you're parenting the parent. Yeah, just can you take a chill pill? You know, it's like a flip. I don't know. It's a weird kim thing. Yeah, interesting. Let me ask in terms of work and hustle, yes. Tell me, uni, what was your first internship, hustle, no attachment or hustle? One year, um within campus. You're within campus, within the four years. So there was this um first year, second year, I was still very graphics minded. And since I had worked with my dad, I knew a few graphic companies in town. There's this one in particular called City Imaging, it was like the place to work at that time. Um so uh when I was in campus, they would call me sometimes when they needed extra help over the weekends, sometimes when they were taking their team building stuff. So I I would actually work for them and get like a daily pay. And I loved it. Loved it. We needed the money, yeah. And it was just fun to to feel like you're so grown and so mature that you can handle a whole this job, this little job that is not your father's. Yeah, yeah. And um, yeah, I I we did that. Um we we also worked with I don't mention the company name. Oh, because I may ask you challenges and then you're like ah, it was that place. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, yeah, some few organizations also in campus. I think campus had like these um NGO types organizations. In campus. In campus. In campus meaning in your n. In your n. Like I choose life, ICL. Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. Got it, got it, got it. Uh huh. Yeah. So those ones are not paying. Those ones was like volunteer. No, no. We we we some some work was volunteer work, but we got to know like some of the directors who needed stuff done for their business, and we got to do that.

SPEAKER_02 30:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:07

We did some now with like my co-founder, and we'd take those gigs on. And when we got paid, we'd we'd have this ritual where we'd go um to Java. We'd sit with one cup of coffee and just congratulate ourselves. Yeah, it's fun. I I uh we we we did quite a few things in campus apart from coursework. Oh you just reminded me about Java. Remember the first one that's up in town? The first, first, first, first. Was that the first one? Which street is this? Uko Karibuna and M. Is that the first one? No, uh no. So I used to go to that on those days when Java had just started, besides the podcast. Yeah, I used to go on a dust by myself on Sundays. Yeah, Java was like the place to be. And a slice of cake, and that's all I could afford. And you just extend that hour as far as you can, and I had a terrible laptop, and I would sit with my laptop and just you know, chill and yeah, which remember these days. Yeah, you mentioned double, and I'm like, oh tapping, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you're hustling at this point, these first jobs what was challenging because now you've worked at your dad's place. Yeah, how is it adjusting, or what's surprising, or what's nice, other than the money, and congratulating yourself? Um within campus, let me say uh we had uh the some of the challenges would be just keeping uh time in terms of delivery because of course you're trying to juggle a lot of things, and um the design course is so so so intense, and we would have so many late nights, and actually we'd work through the night sometimes. I think we call it trans-nighting. And um just having that balance between you've promised to this guy you're delivering this, and you have your lecturers right there waiting for you. And how did you overcome it or was it a struggle that you just struggled through campus? I guess when we were young, we could we could uh we'd stretch the day as far as we could. Right now it's a bit difficult. So a lot of you are keeping on, you're like, okay, it's difficult, but you're managing manage sleep is for weekends. Yeah. Okay, so now the NGOs. So there's the uh graphics at your dad, there's this second place where it was graphics still. Yes. Then you do the NGO hustles, the gigs here and there. Yeah, is there anything else you do? Do you actually do an in in NTI design attachment or within uh no during school? I didn't get to do any design. I found that very interesting because us guys before you graduate, you had it was mandatory. Yeah, and I've heard a lot of EON guys saying, Yeah, we didn't we didn't get to do that. Yeah. But it would have been really good too, because we jumped in and we were just drowning. Okay. Then you leave uni. What what's your do you what do you do first? Do you get employed? Do you just do other hassles? What do you do? So um left uni and just got into um most of uh what do you call them? Interviews. So some some companies like now I can't mention them, would come, some bigger companies would come and actually ask for uh the most recent cohort and and call us for interviews. Um others we would just have to find them ourselves. Now where what I told you about not staying in your cocoon, that's where that's where it actually bore fruit because um one of my first jobs I was called by one of my architect's friends. Oh and he just called me, he's like, uh we need a designer. Oh and don't tell my my boss I I I told you. But yeah, uh Well they didn't ask him directly for a reference. He's just he actually just just of course you're in the office and you know that we need a designer, and you've and he's had that yeah, he's had that um there's an opening for interior designer, and he's like, just send your CV here. And yeah, sent it. And again, graphics plays in because I did a bomb CV. Yeah. Oh, you didn't attach a uh portfolio? I did, a beautiful one. Oh wow, but he he could not not call me. Oh, really? Yeah, it was it was it was like this is what made me call you to this interview. And he was he was an eccentric guy, my first employer. I won't name names. He's be brilliant, brilliant mind, and quite like out-of-the-box thinker, and uh got into like uh most of our clients at that time were pro were parastate holes, and he actually had um enough charm and in in my opinion to convince really, really like you know, um what do I call them, stiff government officials to to to just do like cavalinear designs and interesting stuff. It was fun working there. And my second employer, again, I was called by one of my classmates and got into from now that was mostly architectural, so there I got to learn a lot about space planning, the technical aspect of design. Got my archikard expanded into crazy. I I really learned a lot there. And now from there, then my next employer was called by now one of my classmates actually. He was working there and it's like, we need someone. Like, sure. And um there I got to learn more of the interior design soft side in terms of uh fabrics, furniture, and I loved that also because um they got a lot of international high-end brands. Um and yeah, I when I told it that we jumped in and almost drowned, is I remember one of the clients was a high-end hotel. I'm trying to keep names. Yeah, uh, that we were called to they sort of had a running contract in terms of maintenance and and revamp and renovation. And one of my first site visits was to one of um, so I got to go get into the hotel, check the hotel rooms, and but um my project manager at that time was a wonderful lady. Um, she would just really, really like help in terms of okay, tell me, what is it now that because she would just see my face and she's like, I know you didn't get that. What what is that? So for this particular time, I get into the hotel room. We always had um an assistant in terms of yeah assistant to do what? Take measurements, okay. Um wait at this point, what's your title? Interior designer. Okay, okay, just simply interior designer. And um, we get into the hotel room and sort of get the brief. I get everything the client needs, uh, get all the measurements we need, and we head back. And the project manager is like, okay, Jacinta, um tell me, do we need to replace the balances? And that is on the way. It's like, uh, yeah, yeah, it's okay. Go go research and come back and answer. Yeah, so it's such small, small things, but it it's always interesting to learn in, and I'm glad that we learned I got to learn in so sort of a softer environment. Um, but sometimes it would be in very critical spots. So when you talk about interning during the course, I feel like that would have helped the best practice. Yeah. Yeah, because for me I did inter um attachments during the course, and actually I did quite a bit. I think I did um no. Because I did hustles, I did work, and I did attachments. So attachments in inter design farms, I did one in an architectural farm and I did one where I ended up being employed for a long time, a relatively long time. And yeah, that was a lot. In fact, the architectural farm was my brother's. Nice, yeah. So that was my first attachment, but that one also was was it in campus or before? That was no, that was before. I it's not what do you call that? Is that an attachie or an intern? That one, because it's before school, yeah, yeah. So I was there for a while and I would go and he would treat me like an employee. Yeah. So by the time I'm going into uni, then I did now other hassles and stuff, and then I did my attachment now for uni. And then I got employed at at the same place by that lady. Yeah, for another. So I at I was an intern there, an attached. One of them. One of them. Um, for like how long? For like five and a half months to six months. And then I was employed there for like two and a half months, almost two and a half years, sorry, almost three. So give or take like four years with her. Same, same, same lady. And it was like expressed mode. It's like, what? I don't know this. And but she was also very it was a very nice, soft landing. Nice, she was very um, very thorough in detailing, very emotionally intelligent, um, knew how to critique without tearing and shredding apart, which I think I also I struggle a bit. Me, I'm very yeah, direct. And I may be direct and see, like it's not a problem, but to you like guy, you couldn't have told me that in any other way. Yeah, I didn't even think about it. I didn't think about it. I moved on. I was like, okay, this thing looks ugly. Moved on. And she told me, Oh, Abigail, but don't you think that it's gonna just pulling you back slowly, slowly, yeah. So it was a really, really nice experience, but I learned a lot. Oh my god, during that internship, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, and she used to mark like our drawings, like oh nice, and examined right for you know, and put 12 mm. She'd even make us put the 3mm under the details, the detail.

SPEAKER_01 41:39

I like that, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:40

So I think even by the time I left there, I I I think I just automatically was more inclined towards the detailing side rather than the soft furnishing side. To date, um not really a furnishing kind of person. It's okay, I can do it, but it's not like I'm excited to do it. No, yeah, yeah. So actually at the beginning, when you're saying um sometimes when you're finding it difficult and you just tell myself, hey, you're not playing in my head. I'm like, hmm, can that apply to me? A detail you have to have your logical mind on all the time, all the time, all the time. It's like go, go, go, go, and then everything is a problem with a solution, you know. Yeah, let me move you back a bit. How do you find currently how do you find yourself balancing creativity and the you know the practical aspects till this point? Till this point, meaning not now 2026, till this point of these jobs that you're doing, the first ones, uni and then the first jobs. Yeah. So I'm balancing creativity and the practical thing. The practical thing. I think um as I started out, and I I don't know if it's experience of most people, I don't know yours, I find that our employers never allowed us too much leeway in terms of designing. Um again, we would be under like um my boss at the architectural firm would um yeah, I think uh in terms of space planning and all that, we would still really uh sort of lean on him a little a lot more um in terms of hierarchy, when you're designing office spaces, where does the MD sit? Where does the CEO, you know, all that. So it was still very um not creative work, more technical work, but problem solving still. That was a little bit better. Now on this other side, um the furniture, the soft furnishings, the um I feel like um it took it took at least one year of being an understudy before I even just actually just designed something myself and took it to to my boss and told her then she was like oh okay probably she can oh yeah so um a lot of learning and adapting first before actually spreading your wings in terms of design and creativity and how was it adjusting now to the hierarchies uh for the space planning part that that was like a puzzle solving um but that that in terms of just office planning I really like it in the well when you're given a fully blank uh first floor second floor it's a full floor of pillars and columns and empty space empty space and no ceiling nothing no flooring and you're told okay this is our um uh especially with the Paris State holes yeah so you have um CEO uh CFO CEO under them we have this under them we have this the accounts department blah blah blah blah blah blah fitting all those into into that space so it it was almost like um untangling something it's um and the I I guess the fun part about it is is taking it to the client and almost always it was a panel like probably three or four or five people and the um if we went without our boss who sort of knew all of them and their roles if we got to go um with our team just our me probably the architect and the quantity surveyor and present the design we would get feedback about oh I don't think the CFO should be there I think he should be here then we take it back to our boss and he'd be like ah it's it's uh Nani who said that oh at his office so he it's it's interesting even just getting into those dynamics but I really loved just planning out that space and I still really enjoy doing that. And you now you in the organizations so this is what planning now you you are my my own ranking yeah um I guess they were fairly small we didn't have too large like um less than 20 employees most of them yeah so um just you just learn the politics and and play within know who's influential and just align politically yeah yeah I never had a problem with that okay so give our viewers let's say which age group should we tackle someone who is within the first to third year of of working of employment out of school out of school power tell them for example how to adjust politically what would that look like it takes a lot of observation first of all um and um decide I think you have to decide what it is you you want um are you looking to learn and move on are you looking for more of a long-term employment just look at it in your head and decide okay I'm here to learn this is the best person to to mentor me in that direction if it's uh hit and run uh it's a different strategy probably be a bit more adventurous and and be a take up take a few more risks knowing that you don't have to be you know because it also it also sort of just gives you a bit of grit yeah and see where the chips fall it's interesting because you can prefer day yeah and or you can spend days off exactly yeah but if you're thinking long term game you also have to just be a bit more alertful more careful yeah how would we define politics to someone who's never worked in corporate how would they identify because I remember there's someone I interviewed here and they're like you know I've not worked in corporate so I really don't know what politics would mean in that context um politics exists where human beings exist it's like the right hand and left hand it's how we interact it's who holds the power so it's mostly power dynamics so what politics would be in a corporate setting and what I experienced it as would be probably um you'd you'd see it magnified when something goes wrong. Yeah like if a project was supposed to let's say um have been done within a certain time yeah you have this and then something happens and um of course most of the time now now we know we almost always extend but that's just an example now who has to take accountability who has to take this blame usually you see it playing out at that point. Yeah that's when you know who's who's on your side who's not on your side and who throw you under the bus and so it almost always comes up in terms of who's aligning with who and who do people perceive to have power in what. So let's say we perceived Jacinta as having the power what are they supposed to do now align what does a line mean align a line means be on their good side yeah make sure you know what it is that they it's a lot of observation and you have to be really really observant what would make their day easier what would make um what do they value? Do they value time with their family? What if I go and tell them okay I'll take this off your desk could I do do do do do yeah things like that those are soft skills and eventually that they you it sort of gets you in their good side and most of the time if they have the power they probably will throw you the better projects they'll send you to the better places like I really liked going to the Nanuki hotels. Yeah you know so yeah just making sure you're you know whose role is what and according to your goals always according to your goals now align that with that direction hey class 101 on politics but we will not go too much but see you've gotten something Cindy oh yeah and communication yeah because also this aligning and the politics there's a lot of communication in between yeah a lot a lot of communication at what point do you feel like it clicked on how to communicate effectively in which part of your career how to communicate effectively I guess um the enemy of communication is assumption in my opinion so sometimes you assume that uh they they should know that it goes without saying it doesn't go without saying so communication is important just for clarity so um I guess it had to happen such that um especially when you're working with fundis and you don't specify to the T. Most of the time we don't but if you're not um if you don't have a a long working relationship such as they know what you mean um you have to be really really clear so sometimes you'd you'd assume that just because it's standard practice that everyone will go into that direction. But you'll find a lot of mess coming up in terms of um even just like simple things like table heights and you know counter heights and if you don't specify and be very very clear which is now what I what we're talking about communicating then you find that a lot can go wrong. So so you you realize that that clicked when you're interacting with the founders or is it it clicked when I noticed um uh let me say generally when things go south or things go wrong in projects it's almost always about communication yeah and how about feedback because this communication and managing clients feedback also kind of go hand in hand how did you learn about you know how to manage the feedback from clients what feedback all like it can be feedback on design feedback on whatever happened on site you know feedback on approvals you're giving oh I'd like to have the sculptures a three meter sculpture and they're like hey my friend no uh feedback from clients so two categories I would say for residential clients I give them a lot more leeway a whole lot more leeway in terms of um a residential space is very very personal and um I take their feedback really really seriously because eventually that is their space that is in my opinion their sanctuary and they should enjoy it and encourage them to be to put as much of their personality into it without just within now guardrails yeah my my job your parameters yeah so for the more of the commercial projects I if I I really find that there's um a lot more I have to I have to be a a lot more strict with my my clients and um whenever we get feedback or in in terms of I mean not even call it feedback opinions we I in particular have to I have to um almost always just really really explain what this space is for what the function is for and guide them in this direction because there's very little space for personal input in in in commercial in commercial spaces and more public use spaces yeah so also this one is your guiding guiding guiding and this other one is like Andy what would you like and how would you yeah yeah I I I I still I I go in and I design but I really really watch for what they like and I watch for the what they respond to. The other side um and and and most of the time they allow us to do it because they just like you're the professional will follow so yeah feedback has that space in in my opinion depending on what you're designing and yeah confidence yeah confidence even to just guide them like no no no no no and route them into this direction let's say the commercial clients yeah where did you get or at what point do you rem recall getting this confidence I like that um I think I don't remember the exact point but about five or six years in yeah when I had uh a substantial portfolio under my name and enough projects to feel like I have spread that knowledge because I don't think um confidence real confidence yeah the guys who do fake it till you make it it it fake it doesn't really cut it because people can read you can read your vibe they can sort of just just smell it like a like a little um fear but um at the beginning of course you have to fake it till you make it but the real confidence just comes with practice comes with con or with continuous practice and even up to now there's I like to tell um guys I mentor I still learn something new if there's any project that I will finish without learning something new then I'll I think I'll just close up shop. Yeah because all projects are so different if you've done a hundred hours still learn something new so it's it's something so that that was a bit more comforting and I usually tell people this thing of um this thing that people say at oh imposter syndrome I usually feel like imposter syndrome typically is there in cases where even you in your you know there's a part of you that is so sure that you yeah and I'm trying to just fumble and survive because once you know your things as in it's like someone asking you oh what's the height of a kitchen counter you know if you know it's on your stance you you would wonder oh no you know in China they do 850 they do 900 but in the village it's it's not I mean it's a beam like answer you know especially imposter syndrome is just because you know even you you know yeah you're you're ill prepared yeah I'm not prepared you're not prepared because once you're ready you can just be scared a little bit like oh this is a new person just just a little nervous but you get into it you forget you don't even know yeah yeah because even if someone tries to intimidate you and you have a fact that they can check that no yeah exactly you challenge them head to head and be like no this is not the standard this is not how it's usually done this will give a no this won't give a nice finish or even we won't get foundies or who will be able to execute this so this is not a good idea I have done this before this was the challenge you have answers from start to end exactly yeah oh but that's nice once you had enough projects so guys start with whatever you can start on volunteer work start with you know um internships do enough work by the time you're going to the next person yeah you're good you're confident you're you're easy you're good to go yeah cool what soft skill do you feel like is the most important or has propelled your career the most soft skill uh let me see I think it's being able to deal with a variety of characters I sort of um I sort of can read people quite quickly I guess also that comes with with confidence and also having seven six siblings does not uh the team the team at home it helps quite a bit yeah so it it you sort of just get to learn people and um being able to read uh it's a little bit of psychology um let me go back a little bit there's uh something I learned about recently called of course there's always new names for old things that we've been doing but um skill stacking so when I was thinking about skill stacking and um sometimes I I actually get to talk to students and when I do um I I advise them to always have something more so you're an interior designer but what else so it doesn't have to be like parallel careers but be more than one thing in within the field within the field without the field it doesn't matter we had a professor who was so into dance and and she would actually encourage us to you know like she would actually go to the Conservatoire of music is that Kane uh Kenya National Theatre somewhere near there and we we we visited her dance session at some point during and I really loved our lecturers where they we I think we got the best batch yeah um she we we'd see her dance class and when we'd go back to class she'd really just be like can you when she was teaching the class and she would move like crazy so for her she she said um she felt like dance allows you to feel the space experience the space just experience space in a different way yeah and as you do that you understand it in a different way and when you're designing you sort of understand the human form in a different way so that was interesting so if you're thinking of hobbies whatever it is have something more than than what you have and it feeds into when you when you're stuck you have something to to to sort of un and stick you doesn't make sense but yeah now when we're talking about soft skills let's go back there. Wait before we go back there so yours are still on skill stacking other than walking you you're like you take walks and stuff which you said no no no the podcast no that's that's different that's different so for you what skills what skills do you think you'll graphic design oh okay it's it's crazy it's uh it's amazing uh because I still have to use it we we do a lot of presentations um if uh if at all I am not in a team where I can bring in a graphic designer I can still fall into that role and it's pretty pretty tied together fashion design yeah it's really really related to design as in things that bring in just open your mind so for you with the fashion design what no no no that's not my that's just an example yeah but that was actually my co-founders and she was really good at that also sorry you were asking um I've forgotten sorry like fashion design yes for fashion I was wondering if you that's part of your skill stack no no it's not for it's not particularly that was just an example it was just an example for me it's graphic design um I I would say I wouldn't say illustration but more like just you know art in terms of the painting and drawing and again that really also helps us in presentations and uh getting like really really fast feedback from from your clients because sometimes you're thinking you have to go back draw get your renders get your drawings come back get feedback but if you're gotten into a good rapport and you just sketch it out a little bit faster you're like what do you think about this and this design that doesn't move that moves your stuff very fast. So yeah soft skills are we going back to soft skills wait before soft skills soft skills put it here pin it before soft skills you mentioned wait let me write because I'll forget soft skills you mentioned the guys you mentor and this you've mentioned twice early on and now so you mentor do you mind telling us um A few young designers at least have got to mentor like three, but also through some of our associations. I would like to mention so like the um so Architectural Association of Kenya AAK have an interior designers chapter. So we get to do a lot more in in terms of reaching out to universities and going to for talks and just getting to interact with them a little more. So I I like doing that, and and that one allows us to hit a lot more people than one-on-one. But yeah, um, yes, I do. Oh, so I I thought when you had mentioned it, I thought it's like on a separate no I've done a few designers, a few young designers. As an internship or a proper mentorship? Oh no, not not an internship, uh mentorship in terms of meeting once in a while. Oh, okay, like checking, checking in, and most of them are like sort of employed in different um firms. Do they find you or you find them? I denties again, it's through the association. Okay, got it, got it. And then you just build something intentionally on the side. Yeah, so again, it's a lot about chemistry and who you gel with. It's not everybody. I I still I find that I I gear towards a lot of the younger ladies, but I'm open to just mentor mentorship because I I guess it's it's it also helps me to keep grounded and they also have um a different view of things, and as we get older, we have to appreciate that the young guys actually in terms of trends and they see a little more of what you wouldn't be in the space to see. So I get to also see design in a very different perspective through them. Okay, yeah. Now we go to soft skills, okay. Finally, we are finally back. But yeah, the soft skill that has helped me the most is that just being able to um interact with different types of personality. And that also comes from family, it is exactly where it comes from, and I appreciate that. Wow. Actually, funny, there's a guest we had, I can't remember which episode, Edwin. And he mentioned he, I think there them were, was it seven or ten siblings or something? Yeah, and he was like, Hey, me, I learned how to manage people or deal with people because you know this one Nikisirani, you know, the other one is you know, so by the time he's coming out into the field, he's a sense of like, oh, that contractor is just usually Nikisirani. It's okay, it's not personal, you're not feeling it, and you know how to deal to deal with characters, yeah. Yeah, wow, it's a superpower. I think so. So everyone who usually feels like big families are a challenge on any Sasaba. Yeah, cool. So as I'm just trying to wrap up or wind down, I'd want to ask who would you want to advise? Think about who you want to advise. Is it someone who is trying to figure out whether they want to do inter design, or is it someone early in the career, or someone who's worked quite a bit, yeah? So think of the persona first. Who I'd like to advise. Who want to advise, and then give them a piece of advice that you feel you needed to be told earlier, or would take them a really long way. I think my persona would be just out of campus. Okay, just starting out. Um my advice would be, and I would have loved to get this advice, is keep your curiosity, keep it, keep your wide-eyed childlike curiosity alive and um and go for it. There's uh there'll be challenges, there'll be um crazy project, late nights, mad, hard stuff. Um but your curiosity and your creativity will will guide you through. I feel like if you if you take things too seriously, you will die. Um coming from this side of 15 plus years experience, I would advise you to keep it light, keep it fun, and keep your curiosity alive. How how do we structure the ones who are trying to keep it fun, but they're just stressed, like they're overwhelmed. It's a lot, it's always like go go. You don't have time to think, it's like execute executive. Have you ever been such a uh more times than I should have left sooner? Um, those times will come, and I guess you ride the wave because you know that the end product is worth it. Yeah, ride those waves, they make you stronger, and again, they build your confidence. And with them, with those, you sort of fine-tune your skills into a place now that guides you into a space that you're confident enough to actually design like play. Yeah, wow, use it to lift you. Oh, there's one that I really needed to ask, and I'm I've just remembered is there a hidden talent you feel you discovered, leave alone graphics, leave like it was not intentional, but later on during the career, you're like, I come be I'm good at this hidden talent. Uh I'll give an example. So, like for me, I'm really good at creating SOPs. Uh, what's that? Standard operating procedures, so so that anyone else you are so logical, my dear. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I'm more on the logical side than the creative, although I have now my creative stints, my creative stints here and there, but you get so I'm very good at just sitting and seeing, okay, this is what we want done. How do we break it? Who will we do it? And for each person, what do they need to do from step one, two, three, four, five, first to finish, step two, three, four, five, like that. Yeah. Oh, so you found you have a structured mind and you're really good at yeah, and funny, structure. This one I got it at my first employment, actually, because it was a really, really, really small farm into a design farm, and she just didn't have the manpower to hire a lot of people. So it was more like okay, you're doing everything. Nice idea now too. Again, and I usually say this a lot and laugh about it, including cooking chai in the office. Used to distribute and be like, okay, yeah, Jacinta, tomorrow is your day. And I used to, and I took on like petty cash and stuff, so I used to distribute you. You're then who's beautiful? So I used to just punga people, yeah. Then later on it was like, oh, okay, come and just panga everyone, even people who don't want to be panguard. Interesting. And then even at some point, I came out of interior design, and then I went into operations, then I was an operations manager of an inter design farm for a long time. Then I went back into your design because now when I started my farm, it's like okay, you know, you start your farm, it's you, so you have to go back into design a bit unless you start directly with having a big team, you know. You can't start directly with a big team, yeah. So, and I always came in and out of it, even right now. It's like I've gotten back into operations because this essentially is just an operational role. Yes, it's yeah. Okay, I'm trying to think as you talk. Um a skill I did not expect to have that I discovered or anyone has told you. Okay. I guess it would just go back to still people handling. I get I I can really manage big teams even on sites really well. Yeah. The teams include the fundies or consultant teams, even consultants. Yeah, okay, not manage, but sort of coordinate, yes. Coordinate with um, and that's easily easily, yeah. I really don't like day-to-day stuff. I like setting people in motion, like everything you need, I set you up in picture, big picture, yeah, and I break it down for you. And after that, like, can someone else follow up if you've done what I've said needs to be done? I don't need to do so many moving parts, yeah. In fact, even like my team, I remember for the longest time, my design team, yeah. I would avoid meetings, even in my in my office. I would just be like, It's okay, Justin. You you've sent what you needed, it's okay. Like, try and move it out of your desk. Yeah, just can you just do what you're supposed to do so that we don't need to meet? Yeah, yeah. Last but not least, what do you think? Or do you have one challenge throughout your career that turned into a valuable learning experience?

SPEAKER_02 1:15:59

Okay, like that.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:00

One challenge, so many challenges, a big one that you like, hey, this one. Sorry, a challenge that turned into a learning experience, a valuable learning experience.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:21

Challenge.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:28

So um there was this project a sort of a restaurant stroke bar. Um that um the client brought us in as they were having their talks with the landlord. So we were assured the landlord was a salesman. He was like, Yes, I know um we have challenges with um at that time, clubs were having issues with being in residential areas and noise restrictions. They're like, don't worry, we've soundproofed everything. This we actually, this space we planned for high-end restaurant club assured. And when we got in and started the project, we found out that it was not any of those things. All the we had to we had to introduce a lot of um like plumbing works, electrical wax. There was so much that had to go into it because it was not designed, it was not designed, it was actually a rooftop that they thought, okay, let's go a little bit higher. So it was an afterthought. It was not soundproofed. It was so So at what point are you guys going to realize this? Is it during the first site visit or as as as as we start work? You guys didn't do all time visit. We we were we were on the site as he was telling us all this, but when we actually started and getting and we were getting into sight, then we actually realized that uh none of that was true. So that sort of um woke me up to do your research. Just don't take people's word for it. Yeah. So whatever promises or you know, salespeople do that alone. Just take everything with a picture, pinch of salt, do your own background research and make your decision based on what you have seen and what you know. But you guys were already on site, like you were on site visitors. It was it was um um you can't tell uh soundproof just by being on site. Yeah, you can't tell when you actually now start asking them, please give us your MEP drawings, then we realize, oh, we don't know. We have to bring in this, we have to bring in that, we have okay. At least they had the proper drawings. Yes, at least they had proper drawings, but yeah, that was a challenge that came up that yeah, I would it sort of shifted how I just look at all projects. Yeah, wow, okay, Miskia, do a bit more research, don't take the client's word for it, even not the client, just anyone, anyone, you know, your colleague, your client, your employees, just do a little bit more due diligence. Exactly. Cool. Before we wrap up, is there anything that you feel you really wanted to share on this podcast? And you're like, I we've not talked about that. Um I I I feel like designers work a lot, just like you said, in their own cocoons. I feel like we need to be a lot more outgoing, a lot um work, work a lot more with our fellow designers, collaborate, uh join associations, find spaces where other designers are, and uh yeah, you'll you'll be surprised the amount of inspiration you just drew from your your fellow designers. Wow. So for you, other than AK, the interior designers chapter, what else do you do like to you know put yourself out there and mingle with other designers and stuff? Mine is the podcast. Yes, it's a podcast, it's a good one, it's a great one, and we're forced to talk about the relevant things. Um just um networking events, yeah. Um finding people you do go, you you go, yeah. I do. I I I make sure I at least once a month. What? I'm in a networking event, whether it's I always bump into designers. Um like for my office space, I work in a co-working space, so that helps always around people. Oh wow, yeah, once a month, hey hey, hey, hey, hey, and she's not talking for me and also but that's a target, yeah. Yeah, we have been doing badly then. This is really bad, it is really good. I've been hiding in a cocoon, yeah. All you know, guys. I hope you've taken one or two or three or four lessons. Please drop them in the comments. What have you learned that's new? What would you like to challenge respectfully? You know, let's learn from each other. Yeah, and thank you so much for honoring our invite and for sharing and for taking the time. We really, really appreciate it. And thank you for this space. You're most, most welcome. Until next time, please. Oh, we'll insert your socials. Would you like would you like that? Yes, yes. So we'll insert her socials here. Please check out, comment, see the work she's done. If you'd like to hire her, please do your own due diligence. Exactly. Do your own due diligence. Do your own due diligence. In fact, someone was commenting, I think the day before yesterday in our one of the videos on YouTube, and they're like, Oh, but why are you endorsing such and such guests? And I'm like, I'm not endorsing this, it's not an endorsement. This is clearly for education. We always insert our disclaimers. You'll see them always popping through the screen. This is to share people's own experiences so that we can learn from each other, you know, so that we can network, so that you can see what other people are doing, you know. And if you want to show for a designer, do your own due diligence, don't make it my work. So until next time, see ya. Bye bye.