How interior designers grow practical skills & Referrals | Episode 32

In this episode of the Studio Little Bold podcast, Sammy Masinde  shares the early moments that shaped him, including the practical side of learning on site, the pressure of his first job, and how those experiences pushed him to start his own practice. What starts as a story about design quickly becomes a deeper look at discipline, mentorship, and what it really takes to survive and grow in Kenya’s creative industry.

The conversation also gets into the realities of working in interiors beyond the drawings and concepts, from managing clients and teams to handling scope, collaboration, pricing, and the balance between creativity and business. Sami opens up about the importance of knowing your craft, staying current, building trusted partnerships, and creating strong client relationships that lead to repeat work and referrals. It’s a grounded, practical episode for designers and creatives who want to understand not just the inspiration behind the work, but the systems and resilience that keep a business moving.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

So If Kamali, I was told I should not see you in the office.

SPEAKER_02 0:04

I should not see you?

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Yes. Go be on site.

SPEAKER_02 0:08

Why?

SPEAKER_00 0:09

See, you know you don't know much. Go sit there so that you know much. Oh you know that was an advantage in this guy, sir. Remember me, I'm that guy who can read. So I know theory. I don't know practical. Now you go to site and meet the practical.

SPEAKER_03 0:28

It was a blessing.

SPEAKER_00 0:29

It was a blessing.

SPEAKER_03 0:31

Welcome to the Studio Little Bold podcast, where vision meets execution, creativity finds clarity, and mentorship unlocks potential. I'm your host, Abigail Osidiana, and this is the space for designers, dreamers, and change makers looking to build bold ideas and shape the future of interior design. Hi guys, welcome back to our channel. Today we have Masinde. Masinde, thank you so much for honoring our invite. Asante. And for taking time out of your dinner, Jome Pambana to just make sure that you honor our invite. So thank you so, so much. I hope you'll have a good time.

SPEAKER_00 1:06

Asante. Pleasure to be here.

SPEAKER_03 1:09

Please introduce yourself. Tell us everything you want us to know.

SPEAKER_00 1:15

Um I'm Sammy Masende. Um a trained interior designer. Um I run a company, Paulsa Interiors. We do all interiors, be it corporate, residential, healthcare, hospitality. Yes, and we've been around for a couple of years now. Over a decade. Over a decade. Registered 2014. Uh-huh. Quite a couple of years. Of course, there's a long story before that. And uh we thank God we are moving on well, the industry is doing well, and we hope to share more as we continue.

SPEAKER_03 2:01

Me, anyone who's run their business for more than five years, I give them mad respect because where were running a business in Kenya, yes, running an inter design business, what else? Running a creative business. Yes. Aye, those are three very challenging things. Yeah. So tumpe shango na bikele kele. Thank you for surviving. Thank you. You are the ones who started so that the rest of us can crawl and follow. Sindo.

SPEAKER_00 2:27

Kabisa.

SPEAKER_03 2:28

Ah yeah. Tell us, Kampo. Did you go to university or not?

SPEAKER_00 2:31

Yes, I was in the school in the University of Nairobi. That was a D D. Got Naita F a D D those days.

SPEAKER_03 2:39

F.

SPEAKER_00 2:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:40

F meant meant what? Faculty. Faculty, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:42

Faculty of Architecture, Design and Development. Those are that's the I did the four-year course. Of course, you started um Tu Leanza General. Of course, we started general, then I majored in interiors in the third year. Aponiliona maambo. You know, okay, for me drawing. Of course, when I was a kid, I loved drawing. I see mimi skup na kuchora ile free hand. Mini likuanga niki, I think kitambo na was mdogo uko. Nasari, nasari.

SPEAKER_04 3:30

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 3:32

Si tulianza na marula.

SPEAKER_03 3:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:35

Tulianza na marula. Si napenaka tu kuchora, yuna jule ukyona u kyona, you know, wasaju on sama inunga doodling, na chorachora vitu vitu.

SPEAKER_03 3:46

But narula.

SPEAKER_00 3:47

Sasami wanapena na rula. So I just became obsessed with that. I was privileged. My dad was my teacher. So, you know, those kind of drawings. That was my thing. Um I'm not an artist. We'll revisit that. Yeah, so I love drawing. I started with that. And uh when high school, we had options. You can either do Germany or technical drawing.

SPEAKER_03 4:30

Those are not even related. How did they make that a couple?

SPEAKER_00 4:33

You know, the school I was had four streams. So stream moder, you either to go the German route or to go the technical drawing route.

SPEAKER_03 4:41

By force. Yes. If you're on this stream.

SPEAKER_00 4:43

No, kulikwa na options more. Kuna technical drawing, kuna French, kuna ganingine. There were a couple. So in the stream that I was, Kulikwan electricity, all those kind of things. Kunka min this manapenda kuchora na ruler. Then you enter into this classroom and you see T squares and drawing boards. What else? Yeah, so I love technical drawing so much to an extent by the time Nilifika second term form four. I knew everything. When you are revising, you don't you don't have to read a book. Okay. You put a dot on a circle. When the circle rotates, so draw the loss I from point A to point B. You know that's like mathematics. Nakuna formula, the way you draw so many lines until you get it. It's technical drawing. I loved that. So by the time the second term in form two, and I love that so much. I I'm trying to see how that will relate to interiors. It will come later. Yeah, so uh technical drawing was my thing. Then there was something in technical drawing, we used to call it assembly drawings, whereby you're given a machine. Okay, two examples. You're you're told design a gadget that can be used to draw water from a well five meters deep.

SPEAKER_02 6:35

This is high school.

SPEAKER_00 6:36

This is high school, yes. That was now paper, that was paper two in technical drawing. You are given three hours, you're given a task. Design a chair that is portable. You know, very unique things. So you are given 30 minutes. Okay. See it and think about it. Do your two small sketches and then after the 30 minutes, you start the design. I remember Knoskumaji Vigilata in our final exam. In vigilata ka alikuja na onda, no one is doing anything for 30 minutes.

SPEAKER_03 7:15

So, but it's the thinking time.

SPEAKER_00 7:18

Did you people understand the question? Of course, I kwanila na vigilate.

SPEAKER_03 7:24

Yeah, so because it's the time for thinking.

SPEAKER_00 7:28

So um you are you are given a task. Design something. Kama san design a gadget that can be used to draw what. Of course, your mind araka in a kwambia, oh, sini maji, yaka polli, vruta. But now you are a technical drawing student. And uh that's the challenge you've been given. So you'll not go the normal route, nta vruta na maji or something. Sasa happen kumka ni lisa maku na losai and all those things. So miya sabilko ngana visuri, you draw a big one, you draw a small one, the big one when you rotate, you don't use so much energy, those kind of things. And I imagine in that. Hey, sasa sindiyosa ntachagoni fanya nini.

SPEAKER_03 8:20

So at this time, wait, you said your dad was a teacher. Was he a teacher in high school or in primary school? In primary school. Or in primary school. So me achana okay.

SPEAKER_00 8:27

Yeah, you tweetana kitambo. Yeah, na junapenaga kuchora, but of course, I wanted to be an engineer. Nay story. Most of the people who do this are mechanical engineers.

SPEAKER_03 8:41

Exactly. I wanted to ask that.

SPEAKER_00 8:42

Yeah, so in these kind of machine drawings, I loved that so much. You draw it in isometric, like in perspective. That was question one B.

SPEAKER_03 8:58

You remember?

SPEAKER_00 8:59

Yes. Question 1A, you've designed the machine. It's like that camera, um, in isometric. Question 2b, you you you explode it.

SPEAKER_03 9:15

Me lala kini tell tell our viewers.

SPEAKER_00 9:18

Chora exactly in uh isometric. Isometric next. Lakini sasa eco disassembled. Of course, in our days, ill ni T square, akuna computer or anything. So everything to the spring. And that was my thing. So my choices were what? Number one, mechanical engineering. Because I stole easy with my chore any machines, and they'll suit that so well. Number two, architecture. Number three, I come from a family of teachers. My dad is a teacher, my mom is a teacher, my twin elders are teachers, my cousin, you know, my family is all teachers. So in cases, what has it in Kiana? End of foundition in Queenito byo, not what's technical drawing course. Can't remember the name. Yeah, so those were my choices.

SPEAKER_03 10:24

And yet you landed in interior design. How did you get there?

SPEAKER_00 10:28

Tell us because you put these options. Final exam. Final exam. That is high school. I was good in all the sciences. So I was good. That's an engineering senior sab. Hey, took a broad tingle the pendulum. So no joke failed, you fail practical image. So everything, okay? Physics. So that made me miss two points to anything that I wanted.

SPEAKER_03 11:08

To either engineering, to architecture.

SPEAKER_00 11:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:12

But teaching? Because that was option three.

SPEAKER_00 11:19

And sometimes he ku taka kuko unique. Okay. So change of courses. Let's see what we can do.

SPEAKER_03 11:28

Wait, so what were you called for? The teaching?

SPEAKER_00 11:30

No.

SPEAKER_03 11:30

You are not called for either memory.

SPEAKER_00 11:33

Change of course. I have to look for something that I can do. Okay, we have to act first. But we have that option of in case you want to like revise. Yeah, so we I was born in Nairobi. We stayed around and then we moved to Shags. We moved to Shags when I was in class three. Went to school those sides. That was Friend School Kam Singer. Okay, that's another story. Okay. Stories ni more in a katakata. We talk about interiors. Yeah, so class three, then he went to Shags, came back, finished uh form four. So my dad brought me back. We have an uncle Samakuya to tembea too you see how university looks like, you know. I've never been to any university. Like I mentioned, by the way, you said you wanted to architecture. So you come and we go and see the studio and what one, two, three. So katika kutenbea. And architecture, of course, I'm looking at the things I want to do, you know, drawings, those technical, many drawings and all that.

SPEAKER_03 12:52

That you're seeing. You're going to look at ADD. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 12:55

University. The guy kwa mtu uh accommodation. He was just one of the officers there. So my twenty tubea tuko. So ka katika kutenbea. Of course, architecture is what I wanted, is on the top floor. Okay. See you to tembe pia to one design in a kaji. You might like it because it's also just like architecture. Hi, make wenda uko. Sinkulukwa na myumbas na choroba ju. I was like, okay, I can consider. And that's how I find myself in interiors. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 13:38

So how long after visiting this place do you make that decision? After visiting the studio ADD?

SPEAKER_00 13:45

Because I rubikile excursion. So we were at the window of time to choose and do the revisions.

SPEAKER_03 13:52

Did you ever go anywhere else? Because you can do it.

SPEAKER_00 13:58

I wanted drawing. So you were anything related to drawing was my thing. So make it. And you're like, okay. Of course, engineering pina may say. So n even doing Nijikuta. Nijikuta po E D D.

SPEAKER_03 14:19

Ayah. So you've gone to EDD. Sindo. First year to fourth year. Do you look for any internship or do you do any job? Or do you run any side hustle or business?

SPEAKER_00 14:34

Okay. As I answer that question, our second lesson in interiors. I can let everyone in. Madame sweater. If I couple.

SPEAKER_01 14:57

Paint.

SPEAKER_00 14:57

Paint. Somebody thought it is straight. I don't know how to paint. And that forced me to really understand what I really want. Am I in the wrong place? So from first year, I became a bookworm. Bookworm. There's a book called Timesaver Standards for Interior Designers and Space Planners. I wanted to be an interior designer because I wanted buildings. Lakimi sa tu naza na paintwork. Kaki mimi si ji freehand drawing, si jui painting, all those kind of things. So I struggled a bit in my first year, second year. But I devoted myself to read. By the time I reached a third year to make the choice, I knew everything about interiors. Theory-wise.

SPEAKER_04 15:58

Theory-wise.

SPEAKER_00 16:00

Hey, easy si switches, gothic, you know, anything interiors, anything direction interiors, plus architecture.

SPEAKER_03 16:14

Because you are like Kama Sita Penya in practical theory.

SPEAKER_00 16:24

Okay. Stucky kuitu kupangamazim. I wanted the thing. You know, I want talk of lighting. I want to be the guy.

SPEAKER_03 16:35

That's why, even as you walked into the studio today, and I was asking you, oh, metoka site. And uh, we were just having banter about me, Villespendi, and then you're like, ah, me, that's my life. That's what I'm enjoying.

SPEAKER_00 16:47

That is life. I mean, that's where I am. So by the time I was reaching for the year, it was now um now to answer your question. One of my lecturers, very good guy. He was an architect. He's still an architect. Uh Kampuni kwinitwamorphosis, I think. Siju Kama Baduiko. They are architects. Those guys inspired me. From day one. Remember first year, second year been doing akimiographics. Illustration.

SPEAKER_03 17:29

So it was easy then for you to just twice because it drop.

SPEAKER_00 17:32

Please.

SPEAKER_03 17:40

Straight. Straight on this room.

SPEAKER_00 17:41

Mimi ni lingangana. But anyway, linifung. At least I know how to use Illustrator Photoshop. Yeah, so this lecturer discovered my potential. Na from Apple. Yeah, he is he was an architect. Kampuniuma. So it was a walking distance. So most of the time when you are closing school and all that, kwanetokuamkonu to and then kwa side pima, kuja, all that he wants to see is whatever you've measured. One, two, three. I was working with some draftsman there. Yeah, so that's what I used to do. At least in terms of uh other work uh other than class. So inspired.

SPEAKER_03 18:30

Was this considered an internship or was this a job? Were you being paid?

SPEAKER_00 18:36

No. So it was Twitter internship. Internship. It it was me who was interested. He saw the potential. And of course, those guys were serious. The things they were doing, by the time I was there, they were designing the Boma Hotel. Those guys were serious. You know, there were there were three very I don't mention names, but they are very serious. Even currently are very senior guys around. One is a lecturer, Yasir, there is actually Charo.

SPEAKER_03 19:11

Let me just pause you a little. Yes. For the purpose of the podcast, we try not to mention the names and places because I may ask a follow-up question, a lafum trash can get you aware.

SPEAKER_00 19:22

Yeah, so I was there and I did I will call it internship because I was the one so interested in really knowing this thing. And of course, we keep our affair up and up u jalipwa. But it was good, it is good enough for that. Opportunity. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 19:39

Just touching on that a little, what's your opinion right now about the specializations? Because a designer today may go to a farm and they are told to do everything start to end, from client brave to layout to elevations to detailed drawings, sourcing site visits, killer kitu, versus a farm now like this one where you're saying there's one person who just does is a draftsman, just doing the layout, another one is doing something else. What is your opinion? What is a better route in your opinion?

SPEAKER_00 20:09

It's advantageous to be all round. Okay. And it also depends on the scale of work. Okay. A three-bedroom or four-bedroom house, you can handle a I mean end-to-end. But some some of these projects you can't do it by yourself. You can't. Yeah, there are some companies you'll just design the toilet.

SPEAKER_03 20:38

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 20:39

Toilet A to Z. And the advantage is that you know this some of these softwares are integrated. So whatever you're doing, someone else sees and all that.

SPEAKER_04 20:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:47

Actually, there's a company. You just do toilets. Oh, but the details.

SPEAKER_03 20:54

Crazy.

SPEAKER_00 20:55

Crazy. The details are 10 pages. Toilets. And those guys are strict. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 21:02

So even the scope actually does matter.

SPEAKER_00 21:05

Matters.

SPEAKER_03 21:05

Actually, I've never thought about it that way because I'm always those sorts of like, no, for me, I usually feel like early in your career, you need to do all. Then as you're growing up in terms of years, start specializing and maybe doing something very specific, niche, niche into it. But I've never thought about it. There are times where even if you're early in the career and the project can't even allow you to do everything.

SPEAKER_00 21:27

It's very true. Of course, me Camin is a specialize.

SPEAKER_03 21:35

So you like all rounds. Please. Even for the big projects.

SPEAKER_00 21:39

Okay. For the big projects, how I handle them for me is consortiums. Once a project comes, I don't mind sharing. A project will kill you. Please. You can't eat all that, man. You'll die. You'll die.

SPEAKER_03 21:58

How often? And this I'm bringing again, guys of your end tend to have a lot of consortiums and a lot of collabs. I'm picking that from a lot of our guests here. Is that something you started a long time ago?

SPEAKER_00 22:10

Yes. You did? Way, way, way. First year in campus. Sisitukonga tuam kono, in the serious. I don't mind coming, just shedding for you or tracing. You know, we I did that a lot.

SPEAKER_03 22:29

So it becomes second to nature. Like for me, I ningo.

SPEAKER_00 22:35

For me, you know, like you know, these projects for in in for there. You have so much you have to do. And you know, in our days we didn't have computers. Computer influences are juicy. In our days it was hand. One of my lecturer means influence, he told me, my friend, it is the it's the pencil. Everything is the pencil. So in our days it was handwork. Draw your isometrics, your perspectives, your landscape drawings. So it was a lot.

SPEAKER_03 23:07

So you eventually did get improve to improve in free hand drawing?

SPEAKER_00 23:11

Yeah, at least that's why he all round is good. We really want to aboretam. To draw trees. At least ilishika kias.

SPEAKER_03 23:26

You leave campus. Sindo, umekwa apo natumo napea fea ki dongo hapapade.

SPEAKER_00 23:31

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 23:31

What's the what's your first step? Is it an internship? Another internship? Is it a job?

SPEAKER_00 23:37

When I left school, I didn't look for a job. Okay. I of course I was working for with my lecturer a bit. We are doing so many models. Then I was like, okay, I need to make some money. Of course, PNMA payment. And uh most most of these employees usually come to the school and they ask, give us some of your good students here and there. So I happened to learn my first job. But you've not been learning, so what do you want? That's a lot.

SPEAKER_03 24:15

And you remember, wait, for context.

SPEAKER_00 24:19

20 G's.

SPEAKER_03 24:20

Not bad.

SPEAKER_00 24:21

Not bad. Really?

SPEAKER_03 24:23

My first job. So we are not counting internships, right?

SPEAKER_00 24:26

Yeah, chana internship.

SPEAKER_03 24:27

Ini grosam uh network. Hey, miya mwikwa bado in a taxa. Mine was 25. Yes. My first was 25 and iliko inakatwa help. Inakatwa suji taxes, nilko na take home 17,500 nekubuka visan.

SPEAKER_00 24:54

Okay. Anyway, I didn't work for long.

SPEAKER_03 24:58

And um wait, how how long is not for long?

SPEAKER_00 25:03

Six months. That was the probation period. I had to leave after six months.

SPEAKER_03 25:11

Why? What happened?

SPEAKER_00 25:12

You know when you leave school, eh? Everything is clean. So when you reach the office, you're like, okay. It's a white collar, it's called white collar. You want to be clean. You've been told you are a manager, you'll be managing people so kito kaapo. Unafki manage.

unknown 25:35

Why?

SPEAKER_00 25:38

I will not call him a bad boss. But uh it was not a good experience.

SPEAKER_03 25:45

What was not good about it?

SPEAKER_00 25:47

He was uh I'm looking for a good word. He was uh just don't mention the name. No, I will not mention. It was a terror.

SPEAKER_03 25:58

Temper.

SPEAKER_00 25:59

Temper. Yeah, that's a better one. Temper. Ili kwatu aki fika kwagate. Mkisketu peep. Munateveka. Kablaka echini. Where is nanny's file? Where is nani's file? What are you doing? You people are just sitting here waiting for yourself. You know, that kind of boss. It was not good. And you know, when you meteokashule, you don't know so much. People just came from school the other day, you know nothing. You know those kind of words. Of course, you know something, but you don't know much. Hey, it was not a good experience. So If Kamali, I was told I should not see you in the office.

SPEAKER_02 26:37

I should not see you.

SPEAKER_00 26:38

Yes. Go be on site.

SPEAKER_02 26:41

Why?

SPEAKER_00 26:42

See, you know you don't know much. Go sit there so that you know much. Oh you know that was an advantage in this guy, sir. Remember me, I'm that guy who can read. So I know theory. I do know practical. Now you go to site and meet the practical.

SPEAKER_01 27:01

It was a blessing.

SPEAKER_00 27:02

It was a blessing. So after six months, I knew so much. Everything about plumbing I knew. Everything about wiring and lighting, I knew. Talk of masonry, I knew. Because I was meeting these guys on site and managing them now. Of course, manage them in the sense of okay, I can't you've been doing this for so long. But here I am to learn and just to do one, two, three. And after six months, I I left. Actually, I did not leave.

SPEAKER_03 27:34

You were fired?

SPEAKER_00 27:35

No. You were coached. We were two designers. We were like, we can't do this. Actually, my other partner was a bit older than me. You are good in design. Is it that we can't get clients?

SPEAKER_03 27:56

After six months. I'm assuming from someone outside.

SPEAKER_00 28:06

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 28:07

Now tell me. Was it a good move? When you look at it. It was.

SPEAKER_00 28:15

It was a good move because our first client was willing to stand with us.

SPEAKER_03 28:21

How?

SPEAKER_00 28:22

To support us and to show us the way.

SPEAKER_03 28:24

Oh, really? Yes. You are not those sons of like, but who am I paying you and I'm teaching you?

SPEAKER_00 28:28

Of course, they they pay you kidogo. But you know we were there to learn and and within the six months, remember, we were doing, of course, a couple of things. So, in terms of design and one, two, three, we knew how to do. So we left and we started a small business and together.

SPEAKER_03 28:43

Yes. You have you registered it formally at this point?

SPEAKER_00 28:47

We registered it as uh actually as a limited company.

SPEAKER_03 28:51

As partners, yes. Ha ha yeah. So wait. So after this point, now you've registered, you guys are doing this work together. For how long do you run this business?

SPEAKER_00 29:03

Um, that was uh 2011 till 2014. Amazing, and the by then I think the economy was good or something. I don't know. Because we got business and we were doing very well.

SPEAKER_03 29:19

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_00 29:20

Very well.

SPEAKER_03 29:20

Out of the jump. Yes. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 29:24

You know, you've been earning 20 G's. Okay? Then this client comes with a good job, good amount. We did LAPF, LAPF is where somewhere on Mombasa Road. Office petitioning and all that. Good money. You know, you've never gotten two million, suddenly you have two million.

SPEAKER_03 29:48

You can do this. And this is not for feet of this is call your consultancy.

SPEAKER_00 29:53

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_03 29:54

And he's still the one teaching you.

SPEAKER_00 29:56

He he got the job. Him is uh a civil engineer. He got the job and he was like, now our cover. You know, you got the job, then us we are the professionals just come and do this.

SPEAKER_03 30:09

Yeah. So uh what I what I mean, let me clarify in my question. I mean the two million is not for materials and stuff, uni fee.

SPEAKER_00 30:18

Uni fee from 20k. Please, the job was 30 plus. So so nibado so two is still continuing.

SPEAKER_03 30:27

Still petty cash. No, what I'm asking is in terms of context from 22.

SPEAKER_00 30:30

Yeah, please. When the money came, things were good.

SPEAKER_03 30:36

Things were good, and then why do I feel like a story is coming? What happened after the money came?

SPEAKER_00 30:44

Yeah, of course, you know, ups and downs. Many years down the line, of course, the partnership cannot work anymore.

SPEAKER_03 30:51

Yeah, what was most shocking at the place of employment? And what was most shocking in this business for you? So, what did you learn? Let me not say shocking.

SPEAKER_00 31:08

Okay. In employment, there's this thing called management, and I think that's where maybe my former boss took the advantage. Okay, he had the the advantage, yeah, management. And here come now, we are managing ourselves.

SPEAKER_03 31:31

Wait, come back again in this other place. What was shocking was management.

SPEAKER_00 31:36

Yeah, management in terms of kazi will kwa design. And aside, you know how people are paid, how money comes in is not your business. The guy was handling everything with the accountant, go jam jara, and aside, all over. Suddenly you are the ones managing. Hey, and you wanna go invoices or kuna quotations. You know, there's a myriad of things. And this way I think I'll encourage any youngster in this kind of business take time. Remember as we took a deep dive. There's so much you don't know.

SPEAKER_03 32:14

That's what I was asking. Was it a good move?

SPEAKER_00 32:16

It was a dangerous move. Before you pick, you do not know so much. So you are learning the hard way. Thank God we somehow maneuvered and I registered PAUSA in 2014. At least I'm doing and I knew one, two, three here. Networks also come in. And we we've been growing. For us, we started low and we are we are coming up well.

SPEAKER_03 32:44

Yes. Of which now you which you mentioned you're doing all mix hospitality, commercial, residential, killakito you guys are doing.

SPEAKER_05 32:51

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 32:52

Higher. Let me take you back to the employment. How was it navigating hierarchies at the workplace? Because now there's management, you know?

SPEAKER_05 33:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 33:03

You're being told you don't know nothing.

SPEAKER_05 33:05

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 33:06

Were there other people in between? Like people you answer to, it's just you directly with the Mdosi.

SPEAKER_00 33:11

It was a small firm. Okay. And the Mudosi was up there. Then there was the design director. Then there was Naomi Cochini, Junior designer. Of course, could an accountant up Katikati and all the HR and all this. It was not a big firm. So most of this was answerable to the big man. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 33:31

How was it adjusting to that? That oh, I answered to this person and then I have to go through this for this. It was just okay.

SPEAKER_00 33:39

It as I said, it was hard because number one, there it's terrap there. Who did this? Come here. And you know, you're like for it's a full pack's desk in the office of the boss. So he wants anything, it's not even a call, it's a shout. Sammy, come here. What is this? You come here. Why did you allow this to pass? All those kind of things. I remember one day I got a client. No one was in the office. Of course I knew the guy. But uh came, gave me a brief, all that, and then insisted, how much are you going to charge? In his in this in this employment.

SPEAKER_03 34:21

This is a side household client.

SPEAKER_00 34:24

Client to a boss. So I mean, could you walk in? Could you?

SPEAKER_03 34:28

Wait, you were being allowed to discuss such things, like billing of clients and how much it's going to be a cost.

SPEAKER_00 34:34

So the client has come.

SPEAKER_03 34:35

Just walked in. Walked in.

SPEAKER_00 34:37

Ah, yeah. I have a house, this particular place. And um I need one, two, three. You're an interior designer. Yes. Oh, okay. Where's your boss? He's not in. But what can you know, like I'm being a good guy in the office? So what can you do? Okay, give me the brief and all that. Then ask me, so how much do you charge and all that kind of story? Komkan silipa to kashule. Hey, so that me upon 200, 300 sounds like a lot of money. So I told the guy I charge you this much.

SPEAKER_04 35:13

Where?

SPEAKER_00 35:15

Mistakes. We've learned. We have learned. Hey, how did you? Where? Of course, me, I knew it's 15% of something and something. You know, those mathematics are in it. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 35:32

But the 15% of the something, how did you know that? Did it? Because he didn't have a BOQ for you too. Or you just estimated project nakakuwa this much 15%.

SPEAKER_00 35:42

So yes, okay, you give me a sabuli. And of course we do that in the office. You know, it is something strange. Sometimes we share, and you know, at least we may have nuggets here and there.

SPEAKER_04 35:54

Hey.

SPEAKER_00 35:57

Of course I charged well. But uh kumbay charge wang wevo.

SPEAKER_03 36:04

So how did you remedy that? Because we've already told the client in how was it remedy since Mesha Chukwa, you reign with it, and then but don't do this again.

SPEAKER_00 36:11

Yeah, don't do this again. But it was ilem so money lipakoy of EC. Remember, I started these guys at terror.

SPEAKER_03 36:20

So how are you navigating this terror? Or how would you advise designers on the field or those who are coming to the field to navigate such a work environment?

SPEAKER_00 36:33

I'm a quiet guy. Okay? Because when and such bosses are there, by the way. Number one, you just be humble. But for me, I think the best is to keep you cool. And you ask yourself, why are you there? Are you there to learn? Are you there to work? Are you there to make money? Why are you there? What's your purpose in being in that office despite the pressure that comes from especially your seniors? And just do the right thing. If you know this is beyond you, I mean, it doesn't have to say I'll consult my senior or something like that. You just find a way to navigate that. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 37:21

And how was teamwork and collaboration at that point?

SPEAKER_00 37:27

For the juniors, we were okay. Yeah. The problem is up. Yeah. It's you know, feeling intimidated. I think that's the better word, also. Feeling intimidated.

SPEAKER_03 37:40

Oh, who is feeling intimidated?

SPEAKER_00 37:42

Of course, the the designers down here. We were you feel suppressed. You feel really suppressed. So we I mean, but you have to survive. So we we manage somehow. But you know, after six months, it we cannot be it anymore. Why it's too much.

SPEAKER_03 38:03

What is too much?

SPEAKER_00 38:04

Every day. What you're just sitting in the office waiting for your salary. It you know, it reaches a point, it becomes like an insult.

SPEAKER_03 38:14

What is an insult?

SPEAKER_00 38:16

The amount, the no, their tax from above.

SPEAKER_03 38:20

Okay, got it. No, it's because you've said that every day sitting in the office waiting, so I'm in my head. I'm thinking I'm a kazi.

SPEAKER_00 38:26

You can imagine that's a statement from your boss. Yeah, painful. So I say may God open ways for us. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:37

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 38:38

So for us it was pressure. I think pressure made us really open up our minds and dive deep. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 38:48

How do you think industry differs from classroom? What you learnt in school?

SPEAKER_00 38:56

Um, industry is realistic. Um classroom is more of ideological, whereby, you know, in the industry or out here, you meet things. You meet live things. Like I remember, and again I'll encourage my especially students when you're not talking, yearn to know things, you know, like materials, for example. Many of many of people when they leave school, I would be materials. So napatam kona is a kuko design a very good thing. Very good, very good design. But now when it comes to what can we use here and there, it becomes of a challenge. Yeah, so for me, there is a small disparity. The good thing is that when you get people who can direct you well, because of course, you are given a direction. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 40:04

How do you think you are directing others or in the past have directed others to bridge this gap?

SPEAKER_00 40:12

Um, I've had a couple of uh interns. Yeah, so I bring them on board. We go to site, we see how things are done, and I leave them to design. And um out here we are not competing. I think I always tell that to my to my even my interns. Yes, you have your idea. I have my idea, but when a project comes, can we put it on the table? Let's put our ideas together. Can do this, bring your ideas, put them together. You know, as we are talking, so we are jajjoi counter nigani. Tutatumia dectone, number tuta to mea granite. Oh, so what is dectone? You know, now that becomes an initiative of the intern. Dectone is a particular stone that is new in the market and we are going away from granite. Oh, okay. Oh, yeah, we are going to use gypsum. Which gypsum? 9mm, 12 millimeter. You know, now those are questions that we encourage our interns to bring up. I remember one time we are dealing with uh knowledgeable clients. Squeezy clients, squeeze on a jewel mambo. A client will ask you a question, of course they know the answer. But they are trying you.

SPEAKER_03 41:34

They want to see if you know.

SPEAKER_00 41:35

They want to see if you know. Now you can imagine you are the designer being consulted and you have no idea. And the client knows. So being ignorant before a client is not good. It's always good to be ahead. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 41:51

So at least what you're also pushing, or the agenda you're also pushing, sorry, is as much as we would want to help an intern, they also need to have their own initiative. You can't help if you know, you have to you yourself have to make everyday learning experience for yourself also.

SPEAKER_00 42:09

Yes. And taking note, we are so busy. Like as I said, me, I'm a design build. I design and I build. So you find that I am so busy, I have no time to teach in the office. You know, when you came, I I expect you to know to some point. I may not really come and teach you how this is how we draw and this, how we do this, you know. So for me, it's the student to take the initiative. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 42:41

Beyond that, it's you and God. Yes. Tell me, in this period, what hidden talent do you think you've discovered about yourself?

SPEAKER_00 42:51

Um I don't know if I don't know if management is a talent, is it?

SPEAKER_03 42:59

Tell us. What what in an what in management? Managing who or managing what?

SPEAKER_00 43:05

Um, because I find like I have so many people who I have to bring together for one common purpose to achieve something that was in my mind. And I put on paper. And you take me, for example, I have a job in Mombasa, I have some job in Miguri, I have some job, you know, I have jobs all over. So you find that you're managing 20, 30 people, and these people have to come to a particular goal. I I don't know. I'm finding integrating those people, I find it joy and it makes me happy.

SPEAKER_01 43:42

Oh, really? You're a people person.

SPEAKER_00 43:44

Yes. Bringing these people together and make them understand each other. Someone will come to the work, a kid at home. Oh, alifanya visuri. So for me, I find I enjoy doing that.

SPEAKER_03 44:07

At what point did you discover that?

SPEAKER_00 44:10

Well, I I do a lot of management. Actually, currently I'm it's management that I'm doing. All my work is just management. The job comes, we bring these people together, the engineers, the whatever, make this thing together, then go in the field. I think as as we are continuing, now improve up. It's actually pushing me. Because I need to improve my skills. Actually, to my rudish.

SPEAKER_03 44:37

Oh, what are you currently doing?

SPEAKER_00 44:42

And again, business. So I'm into entrepreneurship. Because I discovered your design too. So you chora. There's so much apukatikati. Chora, invoices, marketing. I mean, management is a whole other ball. Ball game. It's a whole other ball game. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:02

It's actually a lot.

SPEAKER_00 45:04

It's a lot.

SPEAKER_03 45:05

And you can't survive me, in my opinion, of running it not as long as you, but you can't run it as a creative. You can't run it just as a creative. No, they are like, oh, I just love this and it's nice. Let's do ideas. You have to ensure that these things are done within a certain time because also the longer you're doing these projects, you're losing money. Yes. You know.

SPEAKER_05 45:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 45:23

If you don't bring people together while you don't know who to use for what, sometimes you don't have everyone you need. So how to create these small partnerships? When it's idea here, if any drafting, when it can be le Pale me, I'm out of the country, but this client wants this. When if any, it's a lot. I have fundi, I may decide I could say it. Oh, you're standing there outside? Nothing. It's a lot.

SPEAKER_00 45:46

Yeah. So for me, I think what works best is within with the period I've worked, you form a team of tradesmen who know their thing. Okay? If it's joined works, you have this guy who is very good. This guy has other guys who are very good. So I do not deal with those other guys. I deal with this guy. Okay. So if I have three jobs, I don't look for other people. This guy supplies the three guys. So you find that you make also your life a little easier. Because it's it's it's too much. It's actually too much.

SPEAKER_03 46:28

Saying that you because I remember even mentioning to someone like for me personally, I've never done it that way, at least this or that. I typically prefer to use a contractor and I just deal with the contractor only. You deal with the all other people, with the exception of joinery. That one I come with my person because there are specific ways I want my joinery done. But all these other things, do it tiles what? Ah, don't do details. Kuja na contractor, me I'll just come and talk to the contractor. You know. And I remember someone else saying, Oh, me, I want to do the everything. I was like, all the best. The day to day. Imagine doing the design, running the team, dealing with the individual one, two, three, four fundies. Tricky. Tricky, tricky. Tell me, how do you think, or what do you think you've done to remain proactive in the industry, in your field, in your craftsmanship, in the management you're doing? Because you're doing design and build and you've done it for a very long time.

SPEAKER_00 47:32

Everybody phrased the question.

SPEAKER_03 47:34

How do you think you've built like the resilience? You know, how are you managing to stay afloat? You know, how are you building your skills? How are you staying relevant so that anyone who's aspiring can be like, okay, this guy is the real deal. I'm a fan for this X amount of time, and what has kept him here is A, B, or C.

SPEAKER_00 47:56

Okay. Um as I said, number one, to na up skills project management. For me, that is number one whereby too. Okay? We don't know everything. But uh as you up your skills, yeah. Then number two is uh the rapport. The rapport I have with my team. Whereby with all these things you remain to be their look up to. You know, encouraging them daily. Okay, can I mimi? For this particular number of periods at this level. Okay. So that also ease the work from my side and I see them grow. Actually, so far, around four. Guys have grown, they are now contractors.

SPEAKER_03 49:01

Okay. This are now in-house team, or now the way you're saying you always do your consortiums and your people on the side.

SPEAKER_00 49:08

I have a team, but grow. Okay. He's very good with gypsum works. Please, he's perfect. See to wangeze kitu ingine. So ni namtuakwa gypsam, pekeake, naza kumpatia sita manage. So katika ku manage sita anda win scotting. When scotting na gypsum, what's the difference? No difference. So we can also do this. So najipata. Oh. So end of the day, anza kupian and laku grow. Two, actually three. Mama grow. They do everything. So to kama house, now she wako full-fledged. I get a job in Dani. Now I send the contractor there. Who is the contractor? Someone who I someone who I mentor who understands my drawings, understand how I think. I don't have to be there 100%.

SPEAKER_03 50:10

And they know he. Sami will come to set and say he. So they don't wait for you to come and say Nishida.

SPEAKER_00 50:16

Exactly. And you know, as a designer, we are trained. Kama kunamakosa pale. And I've seen it. The client will see it. Inakwanga evo. Kama milise mategeneza. Just make. So mtumanyana kuelewa. So end of the day you find that you have three, four contractors who understand you. And by doing that, what are you doing? You've grown, guys. So when jobs come, you've mentored and you're growing together.

SPEAKER_03 50:46

So I will say one is upskilling, two is building teams and mentorship.

SPEAKER_00 50:53

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 50:53

Do you have a third one?

SPEAKER_00 50:54

I think those are enough. Those are enough. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 50:57

Hiya. Networking. How do you do networking? Do you actively do like you know these design dinners or how what is your method of networking?

SPEAKER_00 51:08

Um I have tried the tier design thing. And it won't get ideas came that one. It's not working for me.

SPEAKER_04 51:19

Why?

SPEAKER_00 51:24

But uh in terms of networking, so far nico kwayo uh your designers group.

SPEAKER_03 51:31

Yes, what's up group?

SPEAKER_00 51:32

Yeah, though I've not been so active.

SPEAKER_03 51:36

But that one is not networking, you're just there. Even me, I mean some of these groups, not necessarily that you're networking with others, but you're just there. So you're that doesn't count.

SPEAKER_00 51:45

Nico too. I don't know. So I've not uh I wouldn't say I've really been networking. I think those are things to look into. Yeah, I think I think when it was a kwangalia.

SPEAKER_03 51:55

So more or less than for you, it's more or less you're building relationships with people that you have been working with. Yes, your team, the people you're working with on the side.

SPEAKER_00 52:04

I think for me, I've been growing a team for a period of time. And as I've said sometimes kazili knob, you're so into the work until you're like, I mean, you are always traveling to going somewhere. So na part of these networking forums and for designers, ziko mingi quili. They also countable.

SPEAKER_03 52:28

And I mean last year nimize kia too recently.

SPEAKER_00 52:31

So I I think it's something that is uh you have to decide to do. And I pray that we get the motivation to go and network.

SPEAKER_03 52:41

I'm not saying that it is good or it is bad. I was just trying to figure out you how do you do it?

SPEAKER_00 52:45

But it's a good thing. It's a good thing, but you can see consider.

SPEAKER_03 52:49

You know, for me, I started like last year just joining the groups leave alone meeting first. Because also I was too deep into the work. Like it's like work was life. You know, you're too deep in the trenches. Yes, you're so deep into it that you can't even see outside.

SPEAKER_00 53:13

You can't see outside.

SPEAKER_03 53:14

Exactly. So last time when I started actually this podcast, one of the guests was like, Oh, but there's a certain group. Let me see, let me join. That's when I started. Nimeka tunki work isolation.

SPEAKER_00 53:28

So you to tap motivation, but we I think it's an it's a good thing that we need, I think I need to look into.

unknown 53:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:36

So don't worry, we have a backstage group of only exclusive to designers who've been guests on this podcast, and we have our own group and we have our own things that we are planning. So, in fact, we have an event in me. So to take invite. Yeah, missing. Please I hope you wala.

SPEAKER_00 53:57

Nikisha kwa dare. I know.

SPEAKER_03 54:00

So, even for me, I was pushing myself from the cookie. Let me also try and talk with people with a bit built a bit of rapport. No, no, to move, I know a bit about you, you know a little bit about me. So when we are meeting, we're not so so much of strangers.

SPEAKER_00 54:14

And I think for designers, me, we are behind because 80% of my clients are lawyers, and please lawyers are tight. Those guys meet a lot. You western jurists, doing what? Just meeting and talking about I don't know anything.

SPEAKER_03 54:32

Yeah, it's not at a work related. Even doctors, you find they are so even architects, even architects, because my braids are an architect and then they're a bit tight. Even architects, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:44

I think I think so. I won't say there's a problem. I think at the me could be a good thing. May I be there?

SPEAKER_03 54:54

Yeah, because what I was thinking, you see, once at least you've seen, and as of now, what is up, leave what we've recorded. I have many more recorded but not uploaded on YouTube. So far, as of now, ni 25 episodes. If you're to sit and watch all 25 episodes by that date, by the time to have your dinner or whatever, ah, um, you can pick something. Hey, by the way, skewlifanya ni ni ni ni oh, yes, you have something to discuss, so it it's also making us break ice a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 55:23

I think so.

SPEAKER_03 55:23

Because it's not a stranger, a complete stranger. You don't want to share. But then you know there's someone who asked me, Ati, how come you're an interior designer and you're hosting other interior designers on your platform? Do you know, even some, if I was given all the work in Nairobi today, I cannot do it. You can't leave alone Diani, Kenya, Mombasa. I can't do all the work. And then also, even if I was given all these clients, then some will say, No, Abikeli is not for me. I don't want to work with with, you know, or me, I prefer this kind of person, or maybe I want someone younger, or I want someone older, or I want someone with uh consortium. You know, clients' needs are so different.

SPEAKER_00 56:06

Different.

SPEAKER_03 56:07

You can't hold.

SPEAKER_00 56:08

You can't, you can't.

SPEAKER_03 56:09

You can't hold. So for me, I'm like, Atasahi. Any client who's gone, me, all I say is do your due diligence. Don't say because they were on my platform that oh, Abigail advocated for them. No, go see, okay, this person was on episode two, she was a designer or whatever. They're saying this is their style. Go to their pages, go to their website, do your own diligence. If you decide that's done you want to work with, you work with them. Work with them too. And you move. Cindel.

SPEAKER_00 56:31

Cabisa. Hiya.

SPEAKER_03 56:34

One last thing. Cindel. What would be a key thing or a piece of advice, let me say, that you want to share with aspiring interior designers or younger designers in the field?

SPEAKER_00 56:47

Two. One know your stuff. Okay. Um I know it can be tricky, but know your thing. If you are you've decided to become an interior designer, understand what you're going into. If you're already doing it, understand. Come on in materials. The world is so dynamic, so easy. As I said, clients know so much. So know your stuff. I think for that will be to the to the to the students. Know your staff. Know materials. Understand what is interior design. Okay? I know you in school. Outside here understand. You know, know your stuff. I think for me that will be my parting shot, especially to students. So when you wanna interview, and you discover you're struggling. So employing becomes a bit hard. Understand materials, understand space, and just pour yourself into whatever you're doing. Know your purpose. Why are you an interior designer? Yes.

SPEAKER_03 58:12

That is for the emerging ones. What if the younger ones maybe have worked one to four years of experience? What would be your advice with this current world?

SPEAKER_00 58:29

Um upgrade. Upgrade. And I think that's even even to us older ones. What is the 2026 design trend? For example, you know. So always yearn to learn something, always yearn to know the direction that the design world is taking. We are going into the AI world size. In our days, a computer says, I mean, I used to do, I used to use Atlantis for rendering. But then Atlantis me 100%. Kisa squeeze aluminum. Atlantis, you'll render for three hours.

SPEAKER_03 59:19

You leave and leave it overnight and it's finished.

SPEAKER_00 59:22

And we are talking about serious machines. Machines are serious. In Lumen, it's five seconds. You know. So to se katalyekmefika, always learn to get something new. What is the direction that your industry is taking? If it's AI, I think we shape up towards that. Or rather, we start embracing it and see how it can help us in the kinds of designs we do and in our design thinking. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 59:51

Let me ask, I've just thought about it. Um, what's the way that you use for your business to get new clients? Are you more of digital? Is it your website? Is it referrals?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:01

Or any other? Um, I have a website. Uh-huh. But website is a letter client.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:08

Uh-huh. Miniwain a letter clients.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:11

Referrals.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:13

What percent would you say?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:14

Referrals is actually high percent, 80 plus.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:17

At a minimum, like 90 plus.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:19

Because any job I do, it brings three. Any job that any job that I've done. So in a period of five, six years, hey, the list is a hundred plus.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:32

Yeah. Oh, that's nice. Any job that I do, it brings. Hey, you have a high retention, high referral rate. Yes. Trust me. Wait. Oh, I've said retention, but you didn't say. Do do your clients come back?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:46

You have you do. Yes. For me, that is a key. That's something key. Me and my client. I always try as much as possible in when you get the box. I am the best. You know, I want to be with you, show you I'm I'm the don't go anywhere else. And for me, that relationship really is key in terms of retaining them and them referring others to you. Yeah, I think that has been.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:12

So how do you do that? Is it that you beyond the work? Is it that you're doing something else beyond just the work? To detain them?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:21

No, when when they come, number one is let's be friends. Okay? So by the time you're giving me a brief, of course, brief to tapata to Yani to naunge. You know, design to quotation. So when I when are we starting?

SPEAKER_03 1:01:41

Oh, so you you take before now like the contract signing and stuff, you muna hang out.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:46

Let's let's let's uh of course at hang out.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:50

You're breaking.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:12

Initonga kwung is a client box. Talk about the design, give it a story. I learned this in Morphosis. Morphosis, they're the ones who design one of the good buildings around. And the story they give is a book. You know, your office, we designed it from a snail. And okay, snail, I hope it's a good example. Concept.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:37

But that's part of presentation. That has nothing to do with you building a or you feel that is.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:42

It is it's important so that you give a story. And in giving up the story, you know, now you're you're showing the client you have stuff, you know, you you have a story, you have a background. So that end of the day, you want to kimung a box. Then you deliver what you said. Of course, by delivering me negotiate, you are very expensive. I'm showing three more. Whatever design you did, it has come out so nice. Better than what you presented. You know, now Usham Fraisha. Of course, one of my very good clients, uh, an advocate. I designed the office, finished, handed over, paid, and left. Two months down the line, I came. I sat in the lounge. Then he came and we greeted each other, and he was like, I said, wow, the ambience is super. You know, but now I'm giving him feedback as a client. You know, so if it's the point is you bring the client home. Once you retain them, they don't mind sharing. This is the best guy, he will not disturb you, finishes on time, delivers what he said, has no shortcuts. You know, and now you are given bonga points.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:13

Yes, very important.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:15

That relationship with the client, very important.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:19

So, me, what I'm taking from this episode is I need to invest a little bit more. Me, I'm the to song it to find. I'll give you the story, my concept will have a story and whatever. But you at hey, have ever gone back at the eight.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:37

It is important. It is important.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:39

Okay, there's one, but this one I usually say it's supposed it's one of my favorite clients of all time, and he was just a phenomenal person, gave actual feedback, you know, it was a very good collaboration. Uh one and beyond. But they didn't think of ABCD just out of random. It's like, uh uh, we need to do this. I send him links, but in gine, a struggle. We would say this was an outlier.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:05

Pony poly too. You don't go outright, but slowly. You won't you you you you find your way, you just find your way.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:14

So that's what I will take from this episode to build the relationships with our clients. And with that, we'd like to wrap up the episode. Are you on socials?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:24

I am I have a website, uh-huh, I am on Instagram. I think those two.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:30

So we'll drop them over here below. Please go check him out. Follow, see what they are doing. If they fit what you're looking for, please hire them. Cindy, work with them. Cinder, we are always looking for for pipeline of work, even if it's not work for today. It can be work for next year. Just keep him in the pipeline. Cindy, sir. And with that, thank you so much. Until next time. Bye.