I practiced for two years, did uh ninety-nine projects and on my a hundredth projects I had a crisis. Yeah, I was like, Life can't be just this way. Like uh you design, you leave your work, you go. There's no you you never and I didn't see impact in the work I was doing. Welcome to the Studio Little Bold podcast, where vision meets execution, creativity finds clarity, and mentorship unlocks potential. I'm your host, Abigail Osidiana, and this is the space for designers, dreamers, and change makers looking to build bold ideas and shape the future of interior design. Hi guys, welcome back to our channel. Today we have on set. Eh, nimi sema delicately. Thank you so much for honoring our invite. Thank you for having me. So this interview we've tried to make it work. Hey, eh, eh, yeah. Back and forth, back and forth, back you're here, and I'm so grateful. Yeah. Please take a moment to introduce yourself and tell us everything you want to know. Shameless plugs was yekeleapa. So um, hi everyone. Um, my name is Nzesa Kyoko. I am a designer first, uh a chocolateier as well. Um, I have a business, shameless plug. Um, my business is called Sugar Drape. Uh, we sell chocolates. Uh I said I'm a designer, I work at the intersection of uh social impacts and social impact and human-centered design. Um we I work in different uh Zetang sectors. Um I work in climate, I work in secularity, I work in healthcare, I work in I work in what else? What else? I work in agriculture, I work in I work in I think whatever sector that can have me. Uh considering I am very sector agnostic and I find that learning is interesting for me. So whatever sector uh uh higher funziya ukondani. So just for context, you said you're first interior designer. Um I'm a human-centered designer. So a human-centered designer solves people's challenges with people. Yes. Give us an example for context. Um, an example. Um in 2021, uh, we were trying to solve the problem of how young people access sexual reproductive health information uh easily and uh without barriers. So one of the things we did, we worked with young people from four different counties in Kenya, and uh at the end of it uh we tested um you remember straight talk, straight in coin to straight talk. The the nines, the the magazines, the the ones that it was called Straight Talk. Yeah, so we had Straight Talk, uh, we had uh Spots, we had um a WhatsApp, uh like a digital solution. Uh we had for all the different counties or one to be used for all counties we were testing four different things so that we could tell which which was the best one. And so uh I was working on the digital side where we worked with young people, parents, uh teachers, religious leaders, uh, different people so that you can have different people's buying and also input. So we tested all this with people, and then in the end, now we came up with uh one of the solutions was a WhatsApp chatbot. What what was the chatbot for? Uh the chatbot was now giving young people information as well as letting them know places where they could access either um a peer they're called peer leaders or peer peer something, a peer leader or um where they could actually buy products uh that they could use. I know it's controversial, but uh young people wanted access to sexual reproductive health products below stigma. So stuff like pads, stuff like condoms. Yeah. Let me ask, just based on this, and this will answer a lot for our viewers, what did you learn in uni? Did you go to uni first? And what did you learn in uni? Uh yes, I did go to University of Nairobi, the University of Nairobi, and um I did my bachelor's in design. So uh I majored in interior design. Yeah, so I have a bachelor of arts in design. And then you left completely. Uh I practiced interior design for two years. Um those two years I was actually at A interiors. You talked to Chetty some time back. So I I practiced for two years, did uh 99 projects, and on my 100th projects I had a crisis. Yeah, I was like, life can't be just this way. Like uh you design, you leave your work, you go. There's no you you never and I didn't see impact in the work I was doing. What kind of impact were you looking for at that time? Um leave alone what you're doing now. Was it the same thing? Um, sort of. Sort of uh I wanted to know how people interacted with the spaces we designed. Uh wanted to know did what we do, did did what we had done actually work in the long run, or did did they get to a point and then it became boring or they wanted to change things up, it is ctc. Yeah. What did you find at that point? Um there are no answers. You you don't go back to the client. You didn't ask them. Oh, so what I go, I thought, or the impression I was getting is because of that curiosity, you went back. You know, you're just like, oh, yeah, I don't even know. So you don't know if uh the kitchen you created is working the way you envisioned it. I'm uh to dead space for some people, I'm a something. I'm a people have found other ways of reusing that space, nini nini ni. So it was a personal crisis. So now that made you leave. I took a break. For how long? Um from February to I think May. And then Charles came back and told me there's a project you have to do. So I went back, uh we worked on Kua Kijabe Hospital. And when because I'd already had a curiosity on human centered design. So when we started working on Kua, I I started talking to kids about the experiences going to hospitals, and we ended up creating a very, very playful hospital. And so this now got me more curious into how do I work with people to create things for them. I know uh people say when when you're doing interior design, you'll do a consultation with the with the family if it's a house, talk to everyone in the family about what they want. But you never think about uh when you design in the living room, we don't talk to the whole family. You talk to one stakeholder, for example, whoever we call the shots. So the design of the living room does not maybe put into consideration the views of all these other people. So working on Kewakijabe brought that uh perspective of children into how we were designing the space, and then I was like, okay, maybe this is something I can do, but then we don't do that in interior design. So then um I quit again. Do you think you actually okay? Just a disclaimer for context moving forward, we don't mention names of places. Just in case I ask you another follow-up tough question, people will know, oh, ilikua pale? Oh so that people can just take the lesson, not necessarily like, oh, you know, you are bashed on a BC place. You get sour. So do you think that when he was calling you back to do this hospital, it was from the understanding of what you wanted to do? Or do you think it was those sons of like, ah, could you fan pamoja? I don't know. I I never even asked about it, by the way. I never asked about it. Um so at that point now you decided like I okay, India design is still not doing it for me. Watchani. By the time you leave. So I could have gone for the money. Oh, really? I could have gone back for the money. When you went now, when you left the second time, did you have a plan? Did you have a job, a plan, an income? I had school. Okay. Yes. Got it. So um I I applied to the Nairobi Design Institute um sometime in October or no, actually September or August. So I was still at, I was still working. Uh so when I applied, I went for the interview sometime in October. Then they took so long to respond. So in November, they responded and told me school starts on Monday. Like it was it was such a short notice. Yeah. Nini. So um on Friday after work, I just said on Monday I'm not coming back, I'm going back to school. What? No notice period. Oh my god. Yeah. Oh my god. I I up on the lifanya vi buyer, but I'm actually pleasantly surprised that you're still should I say in touch, you're still in his good books. Generally could recommend I I'm a really good designer. He just chose a different path. Yeah. What I mean is I'm shocked that he didn't, should I say, like hold it? Hold it, like yeah, yeah. But but we'd been talking, and I told him I want to go back to school. Uh I'm figuring out my path because I don't know if this is what I want to do for the rest of my life. So when you went back to school, what were you going to study? Human-centered design. How long was that course? Uh, one year, two months. Oh, really? Yes. And when you went into it, did you find that, oh, this is something that I okay, I like this, I'm enjoying it. Like this was a good call. Yes and no. Uh-huh. So uh one, it's one year where it's a hundred percent hands-on. That means I can't even take a side gig on the side. So uh what I did when when I got accepted into the school, I paid all my school fears up front. There's no quitting. Shall we find it? Hakuna kuquit. Malitu Mefika. So um Nikanza Shula. Nilulisa, when you got into it, did you find like it's something what did it match your expectation or what you were looking for? Sort of your yes and no. Okay. So at the beginning we were told uh there will be opportunities to earn while we while we do schoolwork. We weren't doing fictional projects. We were we were supposed to do projects with companies. So if you're embedded in a company, if you're solving a problem with a spec or a challenge with a specific organization, then that organization was meant to at least give you a stipend or something. Yeah. So there was that hope that would happen. Did it happen? It did happen. No. Why? Uh I I don't know, maybe we didn't get paying paying uh projects. Oh but uh the fulfillment I was looking for, where I go to the ground, I talk to people about what's happening, and then we start creating solutions based on what we're learning from people, not coming in because someone said these people need a mobile app. And this particular so by the time you're choosing this course to go back to school and this particular school, who had guided you, or how did you know about it? Mama linifkuza kwa nyumba schumoja, akanyambia asinipate kwanyumba uh because unona, I quit my job, ni machinda ni malala kwanyumba. So, my mom is like since I'm not living that bed, akirudi asinipateapo. So I asked what's happening in Nairobi uh to my friends. Nairobi Design Week was happening. And so when I went to Nairobi Design Week, uh NDI was doing a presentation on the work that they've been doing. Um they'd done something in I think either Malawi or Zambia on menstrual health. So they were teaching they were they were teaching um young people, both boys and girls, about menstrual health through a game. I found that really, really cool. Because ASCAIs weren't even taught about menstrual health, but this ones are learning through a game that was designed to fit within their play. So that's how I got to know about Nairobi Design Institute. And I took um Pauline's number and I kept hounding her. When are you when are you opening up uh applications? When are you opening up applications? That's that's interesting. So what I'm taking away, and maybe also viewers can take away, is you see the way she said um just looking at what's happening in Nairobi. So it means you can get a lot of things by just seeing what's happening around you. Yeah, yeah. And these days it's even easier because you don't have to ask people, there are pages dedicated to telling you what's happening in Nairobi, there are WhatsApp groups that tell you what's happening in Nairobi. So you don't even have to ask a person. So it's is accessibility now is easier, it's a lot, a lot easier. Yeah, because you know sometimes people make a lot of excuses. Oh, I didn't do this because of this, I didn't do this because uh no one told me. No one, you know, there's no one needs to tell you everything is on your phone, yeah. Higher. So I go back kidogo. When you're in campo doing the first now degree that you finished completely. Yes, did you work? Did you side hustle? Did you do attachments? I did not do any attachments. Okay, and this is because when I cleared high school, I this is gonna sound very funny. I I worked with my mom for six months and then I asked her to pay for for me to do a paramedic course. So I am uh licensed and registered emergency medical technician. How did you choose that? How did your first aid in high school? So uh it was it was like uh this is something cool. Maybe I can work on ambulances, but I never got to practice a lot. So, this is in what year were you doing? Uh this is in 2011. No, yeah. No, no, no. That was so uh when ASCII's cleared high school, uh, for those of us who are joining through job, the gap, we had to wait. Yeah, uh, so during that gap, I did emt studies. Yeah, yeah. I also had that gap in me. I did a lot of just hustles here. Yeah, and they're oh okay. So uh nika malt, nika ingi. I think I finished uh in February, but do campoiko September. So uh Cook Studio was happening. So I worked at Coke Studios and EMT. Wow for how long? Uh season one. Yeah, season one. I worked the whole of season one, uh, but season two was when now I I'd started Campo, so I didn't go back for season two. Do you remember how you got that job? The Coke Studio. Was it like you saw an advert? Was it like someone told you um so I think the contract was given to a company who some of the some of the people who worked there were in St. John. So uh they knew I had graduated, so I think someone mentioned my name. I do not remember applying for that job. Oh, so also, guys, you can get opportunities just because of close proximity. Yes. You're not really looking, but maybe you finish this course and they're like, oh, there's someone looking for this. Do you want kitukama here? Oh, interesting. Hey, this amina taka kupilaka isa e-podcast here leo to tenda heavy, guys. You just have to bear with me because my head is trying to connect so many dots. Hiya. So uh let me pin this one a little bit. Cindy, sugar drip. At what point did you at what point? Because at some point you're doing this for Coke Studio, then you've gone to school, you didn't do any attachments, passe. Cindy, did you do any jobs? Um when I was in Campo, I used to go back uh to ambulance or to emergency jobs, it to say, because they paid well and they were maybe a day's job or something. So uh responding to stuff like uh football matches, uh so that's what I was doing. That's during holidays, then during holidays. And it's just like random, it's not like every day. So, how does that work out? Is it that you're just on standby if anything too? Okay, yeah. Oh, especially if you if your license is up to date. Is it a license? Yeah, if it's up to date, uh people will call you for gigs. Oh uh, and then I was a member at St. John. Uh so people knew. Okay, guys. This one is a fresh one. I've not had anyone mention this one before. Hi, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So then you leave Campo. First thing you do is what is it a job, is it an internship, or how how do you navigate? I met Charles and Campus. Okay. Uh when I was in fourth year. I knew Charles had an interior design company. So, what did I do? I called Charles. I told him, I'm bored, I'm looking for something to do. Can I come see what interior designers do at work? I had never done an internship. And so that's now my interior design plan is started. And then at what point did you start now chocolates? Uh, chocolates needs a juicy too. Oh, juicy me, how long? We are four years old. Juicy, four years do juicy. Oh my goodness. Ebu tell me me, I'm interested. Uh-huh. How do you get into now chocolates? Into chocolates. Uhtu kamahana job, you try everything. You try small, small businesses nini. Um, four years ago. Well, Jenny, yeah. Umtukama hana job, you try everything. Uh-huh. Uh so we tried we tried uh a gift in business. We tried You and who? You're saying my sister. So we tried a lot of small, small things. And then uh we started doing chocolates. We didn't even like we went we were figuring out things as we went. There was no at the um we perfect, then we take to market upana. We made first, then sold to people. See, experimentation, internet, uh so me, I would want to just plug that business a little bit more, just sell yourself a little. Okay, tell us. Um, so uh we have a chocolate company, it's called Sugar Drip. Um We have four different sizes of chocolate from 10 grams, which cooperates like to 100 grams, which all of us love. Yeah. Um, we have 13 different flavors. Uh currently working on introducing two more. Um, and we we supply everywhere and anywhere. Our chocolates have traveled all the way to America, to UK, to Australia. Tell us the flavors, the 13. Do you remember them? I will try. Uh, blueberry is one of our best sellers. We have uh white mint, dark mint, we have white coconut, dark coconut, we have raspberry, we have strawberry, we have um, we have orange, we have passion, we have we have, we have, we have guide Mr. How nine Mr. How Tatoo or we have white, we have uh like white plain, then we have uh milk, then we have zone eleven. Uh how many to go to two more, two more, two more, two more. Oh, we have dark coffee. We have dark coffee. We don't have white coffee, it won't make sense. So actually, why 13? Is that specific Amaylia? Oh, we just flavor. Evo, Tunendanga to Kyongaza. Uh the flavors we even once had but now don't have. Uh the flavors we had before a to corner market, in any but the people are asking for them, so now they are coming back. So, yeah. Do you have physical locations that you can share or is it online? Purchases? We are purely online because a lot of people like the customization aspect of our chocolates. Uh uh, we did try having a drop-off point in CBD, like we had chocolates in CBD, but the ones in CBD were not going because they were not customized the way people want. People want you to write happy birthday, Sheila. Want you to write, like write my name on chocolate. In CBD, we can't uh offer that customization. But then in CBD, uh you'd get someone could walk in and buy one piece. If you want customization, minimum order quantity is four. Four is of what grams? 100 grams. 100 grams. Okay. Yeah, so each um sorry. Each each uh flavor. No, no, no, each each size has a minimum order quantity. Okay. So the 10 grams uh which go at 40 shillings each, minimum order quantities are 100 pieces. Then there's the 25 grams, uh 25 grams goes at uh 100 bob, minimum order quantity is 50. Then 50 grams, minimum order quantity is 10. Uh so this one you can get it customized. This uh for the 50 grams, we do not um what's it called? We do we do not offer in our own wrapper. Uh so that one comes fully customized, inclusive of the box that it comes in. For the others, can I customize the wrappers? Yes. Okay, all our chocolates can be customized. Okay. Interesting. And then Sasa, we have the pack that's the four for 1600, which come in a very nice bag. I was supposed to come with samples. I love this how jam. Yeah. Sasa samples in corner instagram. I have seen at let me ask if I wanted to customize my flavor, do you do that? Uh we can try. Okay. So the the the beauty of us uh making on order is we can experiment uh but sasa that is a very small batch, not a big batch. Not CMS a very big batch. Small batches like MFO. Okay. Okay. Do you know what this is so interesting? Because I was recently just looking for some of the things like and have like for guests who come on the show, like custom to to the podcast. And this looks like a nice yes, yes, yes. We can customize, we can even write thank you for being a guest on our show. Blah, blah, blah. Yeah. So we're going to drop her handles of sugar. I can have it mingi like into one by one. Twans and chocolates. Cindy, just go check out their page. Cindy. And then come back to the video. Just pause and wangalio na samanini just for context. See what you're going to order. Yeah? And then mimi pianta kwa customers. Yeah. Would you want to, other than the page, would you want to add a number or the pages? Okay. We also have a business number and it's a good one. Yes, please. Ninta danganya. Nita nitambatiya number sister. So uh the number is 0790 507 708. Nani raisi and ye nafa kwa na jo. Nafakwa na. So guys. So ntu anataka chocolates. Any customer's chocolates, please go check their page. They have 13 flavors and two are coming soon. Tindio, would you want to tell us which ones are coming soon, Mayoni? Surprise. Abas. At si badwa to kwa show what you're talking about. Nature a lot of things. Nice. So let me just run into this side, Kidogo. What time do you have to do this? See, we all have 24 hours. So, but this you're doing with your sister. So, how are you separating your time? Is it that you've carved a specific time? Any time your sugar drip, any time your social impact. Any no. That takes a lot of precedence. Because we decided with my sister, um my investment into the like my part in the chocolate business, that money will keep the business running. So I do not earn a salary from sugar drip. That goes back in, back in, back in. So, Sasa, I still have to do this other job that I do. Sababu, this gives me joy. Hiya. Social impact miss deal nazo one by one. Your strike. Your work on social impact. Would you maybe explain to us a little bit more? You mentioned Kidogo, but right now what you're doing and what maybe someone else would what you would need from someone else on the on the side, the other side of the screen. Um, so currently I'm doing a lot of work supporting entrepreneurs uh who are either trying to move from research or from just having an idea all the way to being either getting your first customer or gaining traction in terms of you've raised some funding, it is CTC. So um how I'm doing this, I'm doing this uh by partnering with different organizations, different people, uh, so that you can at least move the needle for entrepreneurs. Yeah. What's the what's the category of entrepreneurs? Like what's the checklist that you must be for you to assist them? There's no checklist. Okay. Just come with your problem, with whatever uh challenge you're going through in your business. And if there's a way can help, we will help. If we can't help, we will at least try to find someone who can help you. So uh what I've ended up creating is something I'm calling a system studio. Um it's it's still a prototype, so I'm testing it with entrepreneurs who are willing to go through the process with me uh for learning purposes and also to at least have a proof of concept before I can start either fundraising for it or anything. So, what the system studio does, uh I'm reaching out to entrepreneurs who do not have access to Nairobi, Mombasa, Kisumu, Nini, all these innovation hubs, it ctc. So this is that person who either has a really, really good idea or has actually started solving something in their community and maybe gotten stuck because they don't know what's the next step to take or they're struggling with some part of some part of their of their outfit or something. Yeah. And then working with them to see how we can not just bring them into mainstream in into like the mainstream ecosystem, but also at least offer them that opportunity to feel supported as they start their businesses or as they validate their validate their ideas at ECTC. So this what you're doing, is it for profit? Currently it's fully NGO. Okay. But I've picked up something. Kun na category. Na category ako ni people outside the main cities. So I'm trying to stay away from watu Nairobi m kona a lot of access to innovation hubs. But then not just watua nairobi nabi. Kun na kun namtu ako let's say mukuro doesn't know they can apply for these things and they're doing something, let's say, in circularity. Pin that actually, tell the viewers nili and circularity ni ni nindo wendele kwansa who to potas them to tabaki. But in lemon too. Uh so circularity. Um I don't know if you've seen um Kitambo used to say reuse, recycle, repair. So three ads. So size, um everyone is trying to see how we can create within a circular economy where we reduce the amount of waste uh that comes out of the whole process. So circularity is a process, it's where um something that could have been waste can now become maybe a raw material for something else or something evil. So instead of having things that have an end of life, we are trying to create things that build up on each other without landfill, a man evil. So my head is still stuck at this point of in your 24 hours of a day chocolate plus market. Have you had someone separate for marketing? No, no, no, no, no, no. Ukiwa startup, okiwa, mkunemamdogo, your everything. Ah yeah. Sasa. Yeah. Keep that in mind. Sindio, then there's circularity because that seems like completely different. No, no, circularity is within the entrepreneurship angle. Oh. Sababu, um entrepreneurs come from different sectors. And there's a very big push, especially within circularity. And um places like Kenya have already been doing a lot of this circular stuff. For example, um kebea yogat. That's wengi. Yes. So uh we've already been doing this, but then a lot of people don't actually know they are they're already living a circular nini lifestyle. So how to pe and you took that into your house as well. So yeah. Okay. So this entrepreneurs okay, so let me gather myself. So that's how your everything is within this social impact. Like nivituzi mexicana, one way or another. It's not just random, like me, let's say with my podcast, and I'm maybe from now which place can be so unlikely to have a podcast. To semiwapi? Karibuni semolo atoni kwani chapekwa. But you get like some guru, and then I want to be helped that it has nothing to do with this kind of work. It's you get got it as an image canisha. So they're more or less within the same field, the same realm. Not not really the same field. Uh I like to say young people a lot of time. Uh, because young people have the ideas. But ideas within one realm, not just one. Oh, open to uh kwa sazi uh since it's a prototype. Okay. And I'm taking anyone that's coming in to la so that I can also learn from from helping people. Okay. So Saizi is in our sector. The idea is we keep saying we are creating jobs for young people. But uh, an example, our government gave ways of fund, into ways of fund to young people, but there were no systems set up to help them see to help them set up their businesses, uh, uh grow their businesses, see how they can move from A to B E T C T C. Okay. So now this, so Sugar Drip is one. Then there is um your systems cafe. Your systems? Studio. System Studio, sorry. Other than that, system studio is still a startup. Yo, ni prototype. So it means you're doing a third thing. What's the third thing? Because you kich kanisha ilengina equilibri salary, hini prototype, but it's still taking time. The third thing? Um, so I'm a freelance designer. Okay. Which kind of designer? Uh I'm a human-centered designer. Like I'd said earlier. So I do consultancies with different organizations, uh, especially for research. Um, yeah. Tell us more about that. If whoever wants to maybe hire you and they're hearing these things for the first time, you know, sometimes you actually hear things and they're like, actually, I need that. Tata school do it exists, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, so uh a lot of times um a lot of example nine pesa to liamkatuka pata image change sindo, but then it wasn't usable for a lot of us. So uh one of the things I do uh under human-centered design and research is help help figure out that usability feature. Uh help figure out that uh you're not just solving a problem because you see it as a problem, but you're solving a problem because it matters for a lot more people. Sababu, um, we've had instances where someone wakes up and says, So wacha nieke maji. You come set up your shop, then you start wondering where people not buying my water. And you can see clearly there's no water there. So they need shop for water. Yeah. But people are not buying your water. Maybe at our nendambali could get water. When you set up your shop there, you didn't do feasibility studies to figure out a why is there no existing shop already? And these people are saying they need um where do they get their water? How do they get their water? So you figure out is this really a problem that needs to be solved before you solve the problem? It's like in shags, my other shags, I won't specify which one. Kuna, you know, the people don't scam and they're like, um, one of what things are whales and stuff. So there are a couple of whales and stuff, and you like and people are not using their wells. Watuba do anaprifa river sindo. So it's like that. Um, there was a study that was done. Um I think in Nigeria uh a certain organization came and built very, very nice uh wells, but then people will still cross the highway to go to the river to fetch water. So for this one, how do you market yourself LinkedIn? Oh, you really? So it's people who are very specific and kind of know that there's this thing that comes to you. Uh it's something that's been growing, especially in our market. Uh there's been a lot of buzz on people uh now building solutions for people, not just uh building a solution because it's a solution. So um I've found myself working in different sectors in different spaces because different people are now interested in how they can use uh how they can use human-centered design to make their programs respond to the needs of the people or to tailor what they want to offer to people to make sure that it works for them. Let me ask you something still on that. I think this I maybe two or three weeks, I can't remember when, during our back and forth. And he told me, um, by the way, tomorrow I'm going to be having uh was it a webinar? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. What was the webinar about? Of all these things. Um, what was the webinar about? That's in April. Um, so I was I I did my master's and I wrote a dissertation on your master's losing uh sustainable development. Okay. Yeah. So uh I wrote up I wrote my dissertation uh on research that was looking at the effectiveness of entrepreneurship uh programs in East Africa. Um so I was using the webinar to not just talk about my research but also to see what the industry is saying. Okay. Yeah. Because I there's realization that people don't share data. People don't want to share data. Um and so to make my research more credible and to also ensure that it it just doesn't sit as a paper in school, that it gets translated into either policy or a solution somewhere. Um I've started sharing out what I learned, it is ctc, and the system studio is also a response to that research. So you've not have you finished? Yeah, finished. I graduated. So you just can you're just continuing on it. But so do you intend on having more more webinars? Uh yes. Oh, you do? Yes, yes, yes, yes. Uh hey, this is because of eh, that's information overload. Because konavit me on attachment, and then I'm I'm just curious. I'm like, hey, and let me ask her that one, and then viewers. This episode you'll just bear with me. And then if you have additional questions, in a comment section, please. I'm going to drop her handles, uh, her contacts. Sindio, just ask whether it's on the you know, uh human-centered design, whether it's on chocolates, hanafanyaki lakito. Hiya. Kimbiando's fani. Kiki miando fani. That's one mm mm that's where you draw the line. Only the weekend. Let me ask. So from school, and this is now three schools, there's the undergrad interior design, there's the masters, and there's this other and when you are changing, you're transitioning. Between school and now working, everything that you've done, what do you think has been your biggest like surprise? That I am not scared of change. Okay. That's I I'll walk into a whole new industry and still thrive. Wow. Yeah. Wow. Do you usually have like a time frame when you know? Maybe by this time takwani major just. Is it you get you adjust when you adjust? I I don't have timelines. Sababo, I realize timelines. Sidafi kai place, but uh I've never had a deadline on this has to happen by this time. I've just known uh this is how I want to shape my career, this is how I want to shape my journey. So, size, I'm in a very murky space uh in that I'm not really sure how I'm going. Am I going to start my own thing? Am I going to get employed? Am I going to start my own thing because employment? Am I going to start my own thing because I am following the research or the data ETC? Am I going to get employed because Lasmanachula? Sidribado. So that's surprising. What do you think? Um how was it adjusting to everything? Just to the changes. Yes, you're not scared, but you know, how are you taking it? On the ground now, achieving, but now reality. How how how has it been adjusting? Um I I think if if you have a great support system wherever you move to, and then having that uh mindset of I'm open to learning, and you can always start. Like at a however senior I become, I know I can always go back and start again. So that mindset has been really, really helpful helpful, especially in all the pivot that I have done in my life. Because it's a lot. Of all. Because I usually feel like those skills was in a babana anyway. Here to me, a pale. When you look across the board, you're like, Wow, this is the one skill that's helping me survive on all. A specific skill that's keeping you afloat. I I think uh human-centered design as a whole, uh, because then you can translate anything in any industry. Oh, okay. That knowledge, that background information, or that you know, being attuned to that. Uh, because it's right now um I'm moving towards calling it systems thinking. Uh then it allows you to look at a system as a whole, at an ecosystem as a whole, instead of just focusing on one thing. Okay. And how has it been navigating um hierarchies? That's the interesting thing. Uh, on this side of things, hierarchies are not really important because it's what you know. Like it's your knowledge base that's giving you a seat at any table. Uh, it's not at you you're a senior person here, whatever, whatever. Uh, and a lot of hierarchies on this side are usually horizontal, not vertical. Um explain to someone who doesn't know what horizontal hierarchies is. Um let me give an example with some I worked. Um I worked in a company in Rwanda where there was no specific hierarchy that said I am your boss. Okay. Yes, they they had the formal systems of your senior, your junior, your nini, but when it came to working on a project, everyone had equal roles. Equal means like um your expertise is in human center design, you're going to be the lead designer on this project. It doesn't matter your your junior or your senior. So if you're taking lead on on fieldwork, you are taking lead on fieldwork. You uh are really good on uh let's say UI, you'll take lead on prototypes. So you can be leading even your boss because they're on the team, and it's like, okay, now you're running the teamati. Oh, but when you go so angular ni ni ni ni mm. Interesting. So then everyone gets to grow um both horizontally and vertically, because then you have champions within the team who know um say ako fiti kwa this specific thing. Oh, that's so interesting. Wasn't that such a shocking experience? Because you live no, it is because I'm telling myself I am really junior in this position, but you've given me such uh responsibilities, you know, I will work twice as hard because I do not want to fail you, and I do not want to fail myself. And you don't want to look like oh my god, that opportunity was wasted on you. Wow. Hey, how long do you think it took you to adjust? Like, hey, if you're gonna end up, if you don't end up like, you're just like, okay, we'll just adjust, we'll just adjust. Hey, sometimes you just adjust as you go, like there's no there's no time to panic. Like you're panicking, but you're inside there, and everything is happening. That's so interesting to learn. I didn't know that. Oh, wow. Hi. Also, um, in that side of the world, how does client feedback come in? Does it operate in the same way the way in your design needs, you know? Like, is it the kind same kind of system? Because now even hierarchies ni heavy. Sindio, in terms of clients, how is there hierarchy in terms of who the client talks to and then it goes down now still um the lead killam to na deal to na vituzaki? So, one C client, client. Uh-huh. Kusa babu, kuna donor and funder. Uyu accounting we kama client. Sijum bona tuitange client. Okay. Um donor, mwunya metuapesa, na akuna akona inetangwaje, akon na mande tiake. But kwa ground kuna the program participants, ama some programs call them beneficiaries. Kuna beneficiaries. No. Sisi tu nenda kufanya research. So sisi tu kwa pakat kati. We are we are the we're the in-between. Uh these guys want to do a digital solution. This one just want information. So we go do research, we understand this is this is this is what they want. They want information, yes, but this is how they'd appreciate if it was packaged this way. So that you're not enforcing in the way that doesn't make sense to them. So, an example, a project we're doing, the donor really wanted to do a digital solution. But we were doing this in a rural space where one access was going to be very iffy. So uh once we'd learned uh what would work for the for the participants, we went back to the donor and told them, by the way, this is what's happening on the ground, this is what we are learning, and this is where the data is taking us. So this is the solution that we would propose. But because you still need a digital facing thing, this is how we will package it so that there's a digital layer to the solution, but the people still get what they want. So we ended up creating um champions, so local champions who would now access the digital uh interface, but then the people will now go to the local champions. So cause your local champion niya some everything. Mimi come to a ground because I babu stuck, na screen, na chaka ku deal nam to, mimi nenda kwa champion na na nyambia. Watch nini. And it was a mental health uh solution. So it's really worked. And yeah, it's still working. It's like folks, like when you have older folks, and for example, they keep coming to you, like, nayongs you kuna nini, ebun yangal. In your head, you're like, but we've done this many times. Why can't you just so you just learn, go and nini on TikTok or whatever, and then you know how to do it. Oh, and attackatu we wendu we find you. So it translates in real life. Do you have an area of unexpected growth that when you look back, you're like, ah yeah, all this experience has made me this? An area of unexpected growth. I I think in thought leadership. Okay. Um I find myself very comfortable in in spaces. Um if I hadn't gone through this journey, I wouldn't have gotten into. Example, yesterday I was speaking um at the Trade and Development Bank. They had a forum where people in the room are proper, proper subject matter, subject matter experts uh in trade, in development, in nini. Mimi young surface level, by the way. I think it's this is their work every single day. So uh I am comfortable having a conversation with someone who will give me one million facts because I'll give them lived experience of what's happening on the ground. And that's that's why I love human-centered design because I get to be on the ground, I get to work with students, work with uh young people, work with women, work with children, it is on the ground. So I can represent I can represent lived realities in rooms where people see this, see this on either reports, slides, whatever. And I'm connecting this to what you told me when you were outside shooting our real. When you were mentioning and I asked you, um, do you do you have a good memory? And you told me, no, but me simtuakucram me lazima it makes sense. You get uh so lazima like internalize, you've lived it, you've seen it, like that's why you're thriving so much, I think, in this particular role. Oh wow, Aki, I don't know. This episode has gone so different than I expected. And Kwanzaa, before we go too far, how how are you feeling about it? Because I remember you're feeling like is this relevant? You know, is this not a to monga sanity? I didn't even expect um for the conver because I I kept wondering how will the conversation go? Do I need to like uh revise something? But my lived experience, which makes it very easy to talk through it. Do you how do you feel like usually build resilience when you're set with you know my setbacks happening in your life? Do you have a specific when you pick myself up and like you cry talk to your mother and sisters and brother and then go back and try again? Just picking yourself up. Higher. Oh, and having a very good uh friend group. Oh, you're you're social and very oh that's nice. I have four best friends. Wow, I'm gonna go. Okay. Oh, and all the others are friends to each other. We are all friends together. Okay. We go on holidays together. Oh, to sum up a mod jump yeah. Hi yeah, so lovely. Friendship not taken intentionality, it needs you to be you know, may take a lot of intentionality because uh one of us moved to UK a while back. I lived in Rwanda for two years, then I came back. Uh Said one has now moved to Egypt. Nona. So another one is in Germany. Yeah, so it's all late night calls, video calls. That is where our friendship is right now. Oh, that's so nice, yeah. Hiya. Last but not least, do you usually go for networking or what's your version of networking actually? You can be on networking networking. What's your version? Um, what versions exist? So there's those ones who, when these events, let's say what's happening in Nairobi, you're showing up, what's happening in interior design groups, you're showing up. You know, this do what cocktail you're there. There's also me in network with the people I work with, you know. Oh, uh-uh. I go for events. Oh, you do? Uh, but I'm strategic about events and places I go to. So um I go for I I happen to do something uh in Sweden. I got a scholarship for something. So every time the Swedish embassy calls, I will go for those events because I have seen the value that relationship has brought for me. Um I have friends in the industry who still keep me in the loop in terms of what's happening. Come as this week. Monday was at an event, Tuesday was at an event, Wednesday I go to speak at an event. All these were people um in the industry who are telling me, come speak about this, come join this conversation, come and it's because I I I keep writing on LinkedIn about my experiences, nini nini about what I'm doing. Oh, actually, so even based on that, what social platform? So other than LinkedIn, do you use actively and which ones actually bring you your clients? You get, or is it more like word of mouth? Because you are in such a niche kind of sugar drip, you're at least there's a market everywhere, but you're in such a niche kind of career, you know. Uh LinkedIn, word of mouth. Okay. People you may know. Really? Just to wrap it up, to wrap it up, what advice would you give an aspiring interior designer considering Ulingia, ukatoka, ukafanyah, like so don't feel as though it has to be something about inter design field or what you you know, just based on your experience, what would you advise someone? Uh don't box yourself. Like when you were renders, no key renders pack. Try everything. How joy gunita jipa one? Napia, you don't know where you'll thrive as yourself. Um, if I hadn't practiced interior design for those two years, I don't know if I would have been where I am at right now. Nah, Napia, ask. You know, every time you say, oh, but Sita Moliza, maybe Nam Sumboa ni ni nini, ask. Without asking, you do not have a no. Once you ask, that's when you'll either get a no or uh I'll think about it, I'm I asked. Because um getting into interior design, I didn't know anyone. N toka kwa class, nikona I've been seeing this man in school. Let me call him. I didn't know people in the in the nini in the ecosystem. Other people opened doors for me because ni lulisa. So just asking, you won't die if you won't die if yes are no. But you have so much to gain by just that asking. It can be yes and it can be two yeses. Like niko nahina pia kuna hingi and also talk about yourself. Like talk about the things you've done. Atakama nindogo. Like, yes, you're starting out experiencing nini, but uh maybe you did renders for I don't know what house, and they came out really nicely. Talk about them. Low trumpet. I had that from another guest in this season, yeah. So talk about yourself and don't box yourself. With that, thank you so much. Thank you, thank you so much. This was so lovely. And I'll just go back to the episode and go, if it wasn't it, off chat. But for sure, we have to connect on the chocolate thing because I've been looking for something that I want to make my own without being the one to make it. Oh, awesome. You get yeah, so that we make something custom like for the podcast and mungunolikutuma haki. 100%. Thank you so much. We're going to drop her socials here and please follow, subscribe, comment, tell us what you've learned. Sinjo, go check out the chocolates. And until next time, bye.